Devs, are you satisifed? Three tiny questions

[Angelus_dead]

Here are three little questions which could help the DDO devs focus their priorities. For more specificity, I'll cheat and add two related followups.

1. Are you satisfied with the Black Abbot raid difficulty? As a conservative estimate, I'd guess that a random group of 12 capped characters is over 500 times as likely to beat the level 18 Hound of Xoriat raid than they are they to win the level 15 Black Abbot raid. Are you happy with this?

1b. Are you satisfied that Reaver's Fate is popularly called an "afk quest", and that when new players come to the raid and ask for instructions the typical reply is "hang out and wait to loot"?

2. Are you satisfied that at mid to high level TWF monks have untouchably more damage (and Ki income) than unarmed monks? Had you intended this to happen when designing the class, and are you happy that the unarmed animations get little use?

2b. Are you satisfied that monks virtually never hit enemies with "finisher moves", to the point where most players don't bother learning them if they're not heals or buffs?

3. Are you satisfied that a TWF character has more sustainable peak AC than one with a tower shield, even if he has zero levels of monk and ranger?

[geoffhanna]

5 tiny questions? :D

re 1b: I wish they'd put all the air ellies back in

[Angelus_dead]

5 tiny questions?
They're "tiny" in that each is a yes/no question that could be answered with only one word.


re 1b: I wish they'd put all the air ellies back in
Yes, if they added more air elementals, Reaver could go from a job for tank+cleric to a job for tank+cleric+sorc, for a 150% increase to player participation.

[Lithic]

I just wish they would make the elemental spawns

1) As numerous (or more so) than they use to be

2) A random assortment like in the puzzle room. 2-3 of each would also work, assuming you give the earths something that the party would worry about. That way the airs get taken out by casters (fires too probably) and the melees can have some fun on the earths without playing "paper bag on a windy highway"

[Samadhi]

I just wish they would make the elemental spawns

1) As numerous (or more so) than they use to be

2) A random assortment like in the puzzle room. 2-3 of each would also work, assuming you give the earths something that the party would worry about. That way the airs get taken out by casters (fires too probably) and the melees can have some fun on the earths without playing "paper bag on a windy highway"

While I understand the sentiment, it seems like Dev time could be spent doing better things than making the reaver raid more difficult.

[Lithic]

While I understand the sentiment, it seems like Dev time could be spent doing better things than making the reaver raid more difficult.

True enough. Making the abbot enjoyable by at least a properly prepared random pug group would be a much better way to spend their time. But IF a reaver revisit occurs, may as well fix it right, no?

[Aranticus]

They're "tiny" in that each is a yes/no question that could be answered with only one word.


Yes, if they added more air elementals, Reaver could go from a job for tank+cleric to a job for tank+cleric+sorc, for a 150% increase to player participation.

sorry A_D gotta disagree. reaver is already a 1 player raid, solo cleric or solo w/f caster

[Angelus_dead]

2) A random assortment like in the puzzle room. 2-3 of each would also work, assuming you give the earths something that the party would worry about. That way the airs get taken out by casters (fires too probably) and the melees can have some fun on the earths without playing "paper bag on a windy highway"
That's a separate specific issue:
The Earthgrab special attack is brokenly weak, while Air Elemental knockdown is brokenly strong. (Ironically, Earth Elementals would become more challenging monsters if their Earthgrab was deleted, because it would stop them from wasting time harmlessly groping the floor). Both of those should be fixed in general to give those elementals special attacks that scale with their HD and strength.

[Borror0]

3. Are you satisfied that a TWF character has more sustainable peak AC than one with a tower shield, even if he has zero levels of monk and ranger?

3b. Are you satisfied that there are reason at all to build a S&B build?

[Turial]

3b. Are you satisfied that there are reason at all to build a S&B build?

I would add mine but everyone always laughs at me...

3c. Are you satisfied that ranged combat is seen as weak by 99.9% of the player base to the point where almost no one will carry a bow for dealing with the out of reach crystals in the shroud and other locations?

[Angelus_dead]

3c. Are you satisfied that ranged combat is seen as weak by 99.9% of the player base to the point where almost no one will carry a bow for dealing with the out of reach crystals in the shroud and other locations?
That's a real issue as well, but unlike the ones I listed it would be a truly hard thing to solve. Improving ranged combat to be powerful but not overpowered is a very delicate balancing act for even the best game designer, while things like "Abbot Too Hard" and "Unarmed too weak" have obvious and straightforward fixes that would have little negative impact on the rest of the game.

It's hard because it's an "entangled" problem that involves complex issues from all over the game design. To evaluate TWF vs THF you just need some simple numbers of damage per hit, attack bonus vs AC, and rate of attacking. But to judge the power of ranged combat, you must consider movement speeds, attack reach, AI behavior, pathing, terrain layout, hitpoint totals, ammo consumption, and more.... plus every factor that goes into melee balance.

[Borror0]

3c. Are you satisfied that ranged combat is seen as weak by 99.9% of the player base to the point where almost no one will carry a bow for dealing with the out of reach crystals in the shroud and other locations?
Ranged combat is pretty strong in the Shroud, though. And like AD said, it's pretty hard to balance.

[cdemeritt]

I would add mine but everyone always laughs at me...

3c. Are you satisfied that ranged combat is seen as weak by 99.9% of the player base to the point where almost no one will carry a bow for dealing with the out of reach crystals in the shroud and other locations?

Well, my 2cp. I believe the problems with ranged attacks comes from playstyle more than from game mechanics. I play a low con Dex based rogue who specializes in RHCBs. He was at first going to be a TWF melee rogue, but after the way I built him, for the way I wanted to play, his con was a little too low for melee as his main focus. In the correct group and under proper conditions, He will still pull out his crippling rapiers of stat damage, and melee, but especially when I'm Soloing, the best AC/defence is not to get within arm's reach, so I spec'd him for RHCB, and Rapid Reload and he can solo most anything I've tried so far using this combo. Can he keep up with the Melee in a zerg using the RHCB, not really well, but sometimes he does ok. would in those situations an extra 2D6 damage help(example numbers only), yes. However When I then go back to solo play, that same 2D6 would seriously increase my damage, and I believe it would cause a serious unbalance.

[Borror0]

I believe the problems with ranged attacks comes from playstyle more than from game mechanics.

Sorry CD, but after reading and re-reading your post... what is your point?

[Strakeln]

sorry A_D gotta disagree. reaver is already a 1 player raid, solo cleric or solo w/f casterI think that with proper skill/supplies/patience, the raid can be a 1 player raid for any class.

[cdemeritt]

Sorry CD, but after reading and re-reading your post... what is your point?

My point is that I'm one of the .1% who thinks ranged attacks are fine. If your playstyle is Zerging, then ranged attacks are probably not for you.

[Inspire]

1. Are you satisfied with the Black Abbot raid difficulty? As a conservative estimate, I'd guess that a random group of 12 capped characters is over 500 times as likely to beat the level 18 Hound of Xoriat raid than they are they to win the level 15 Black Abbot raid. Are you happy with this?

Im Sure The New Spell "Death Pact" Will Change This Raid, And Alot Of Other Quests For Sure... However In Its "Unbeatable" State, I Agree With You.


1b. Are you satisfied that Reaver's Fate is popularly called an "afk quest", and that when new players come to the raid and ask for instructions the typical reply is "hang out and wait to loot"?

A Sensitive Spot Here, I Had Wish They Kept All The Air Elemental Spawns, Perhaps Kept His DR As Untyped(Natural/Barbarian) Instead Of Mithral Which Can Be Bypassed By Transmuting. And/Or Moved The "Safe Spots" By Pushing The Barrier Forward And The Back Wall Inwards.


2. Are you satisfied that at mid to high level TWF monks have untouchably more damage (and Ki income) than unarmed monks? Had you intended this to happen when designing the class, and are you happy that the unarmed animations get little use?

My Monk Is Most Strictly Unarmed, Unless Vorpaling(Kamas) Or Tansmuting DR(Quarterstaff)(Suuly/Harry), Because His Ki Generation Is Much Much Higher With Unarmed's "Stunning Fist" And "Quivering Palm" I Wear; +4 Frost Of Weighted 5% Or +5 Holy Of Weighted 3%(For Devils) Gloves On Him Most Of The Time And I Can Solo My Way To Vision Like That(Working On Hound) And I Never Run Out Of Ki, I Would Say My Damage Output Against Trash Mobs Is At Least On Par If Not Greater Than A 2wF Because Of Stunning Fist + Weighted.


2b. Are you satisfied that monks virtually never hit enemies with "finisher moves", to the point where most players don't bother learning them if they're not heals or buffs?

Finishers No, But My Monk Spams; Walk of the Sun, Alligning the Heavens, And Healing Ki When Needed. Other Than Finishers I Use Eagle Claw, And Unblancing Strike.. And Another Great Party Pleaser Is Fist Of Light.


3. Are you satisfied that a TWF character has more sustainable peak AC than one with a tower shield, even if he has zero levels of monk and ranger?

Well I Have To Agree Here, Just Dosent Make Sense To Me That 2wF Have A Higher Ac Than Say My Paladin(63 Unbuffed) Or Batman(62 Unbuffed) Or Even S&B Rogue(59 Unbuffed), But Some/Alot Do.

[Strakeln]

3b. Are you satisfied that there are reason at all to build a S&B build?I think this is changing, slowly and ever so slightly.

Example: intimitank with a hound shield, holding Xyzzy's agro while her puppies beat on her, makes healing a "one drunk cleric" job. AC, DR, sonic guard, healing amplification.

Another: same thing but with Sulu and the three orthos not being beat on by the group.

I'm already hearing "who has intimidate" every time I enter a raid. We used to never hear that. That 15 DR on the hound shields makes intimi-tanking an even more viable strategy than it used to be.

I suspect that with more high level content, we will start to see intimi-tanking with the hound shields (or other, as-yet-unseen shields) become the norm.

[Borror0]

My point is that I'm one of the .1% who thinks ranged attacks are fine. If your playstyle is Zerging, then ranged attacks are probably not for you.

That's the part I got. Why is ranged fine if you're not 'zerging'. That's what I don't get.

[Borror0]

[stuff about intimitanking]

So? TWF doesn't prevent you from using Intimidate. It only means tomorrow's intimitank is a TWFer, if they don't act.

Can DR Help? Sure. But AC + DPS helps better.

[Angelus_dead]

I think this is changing, slowly and ever so slightly.

Example: intimitank with a hound shield, holding Xyzzy's agro while her puppies beat on her, makes healing a "one drunk cleric" job. AC, DR, sonic guard, healing amplification.

Another: same thing but with Sulu and the three orthos not being beat on by the group.
Uh, a TWF intimidator can do those jobs either better (higher AC) or nearly equal (blocking with that very same shield).

As explained in a recent thread proposing good named shields in module 8 (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=157470), the key benefit of the two Hound shields is blocking DR 15, which has almost the same value regardless of whether you actually fight with a shield on or not.

[Strykersz]

I think this is changing, slowly and ever so slightly.

Example: intimitank with a hound shield, holding Xyzzy's agro while her puppies beat on her, makes healing a "one drunk cleric" job. AC, DR, sonic guard, healing amplification.

Another: same thing but with Sulu and the three orthos not being beat on by the group.

I'm already hearing "who has intimidate" every time I enter a raid. We used to never hear that. That 15 DR on the hound shields makes intimi-tanking an even more viable strategy than it used to be.

I suspect that with more high level content, we will start to see intimi-tanking with the hound shields (or other, as-yet-unseen shields) become the norm.

How is a S&B intimitank better in that situation than a TWF intimitank that pulls out a shield?

[Angelus_dead]

Im Sure The New Spell "Death Pact" Will Change This Raid, And Alot Of Other Quests For Sure... However In Its "Unbeatable" State, I Agree With You.
The use of Death Pact to survive through puzzles or Inferno was my suggestion, and it was halfway joking. To recover from a Death-pact self rez will be difficult and unreliable, and even if it does work, that's still not a spell available at the listed level of the raid.



And/Or Moved The "Safe Spots" By Pushing The Barrier Forward And The Back Wall Inwards.
A pretty interesting design for Reaver's Fate would be if there were mobile danger spots on the ceiling (prehaps the energy balls themselves), so you'd have to pay attention to what was above you to know where to stand.

[Inspire]

The use of Death Pact to survive through puzzles or Inferno was my suggestion, and it was halfway joking. To recover from a Death-pact self rez will be difficult and unreliable, and even if it does work, that's still not a spell available at the listed level of the raid.

This Is True, But We Wont Know Until We See it In Action.


A pretty interesting design for Reaver's Fate would be if there were mobile danger spots on the ceiling (prehaps the energy balls themselves), so you'd have to pay attention to what was above you to know where to stand.

I Agree Here, But Chaos Orbs Arent Up On My List Of Things To Be Afraid Of... I Think Moving The Safe Spots Into Non Existance Would Give That Quest A Little Bit Of A Boost.

[Angelus_dead]

I think that with proper skill/supplies/patience, the raid can be a 1 player raid for any class.
Yes, but if you need patience and supplies that indicates you're not doing it in a manner that is efficient with respect to cost or time.

People can solo the raid, and that's fine. But a solo run of Reaver's Fate is very different (more expensive, risky, and involving) than a 2-3 person run. Doing Reaver with 2-3 people total gives you a victory that is only slightly less assured than if you had all 12 working together.

A solo cleric is constantly worried about keeping his charge up, and doing enough damage to the Stormreaver (but not too much), and staying safe from elementals tripping him, and not standing under spikes.... but give him one helper of any class to hold boss aggro, and it becomes much easier. A 3rd helper makes it a bit simpler, and then adding players 4-12 has hardly any point (except making the chests generate more items at the end)

[cdemeritt]

That's the part I got. Why is ranged fine if you're not 'zerging'. That's what I don't get.

Well Borror, I'm not going to get into yet another argument with you, especially when I was agreeing with you and A_D about how it is a delicate balance to keep ranged weapons from becoming overpowered and unbalanced, and provide an example of how it would be so.
As far as your question here, I Dunno, You're the one who zergs, not me. you tell me why most rangers are TWF vs. Ranged in a zerg? As far as most party runs ranged isn't as quick as TWF, wiether a Zerg run or not (although a party of ranged spec'd rangers/rogues/?? can be highly effective), and in those cases that I find myself in a Zerg run, I find my bow to be less effective than when I use TWF. But when I solo, I use a whole different set of tactics, and ranged attack becomes highly effective, at least for me.

[WeaselKing]

A Sensitive Spot Here, I Had Wish They Kept All The Air Elemental Spawns, Perhaps Kept His DR As Untyped(Natural/Barbarian) Instead Of Mithral Which Can Be Bypassed By Transmuting. And/Or Moved The "Safe Spots" By Pushing The Barrier Forward And The Back Wall Inwards.


Stormreaver DR has always been DR/Mithral, its just that they initially neglected to add mithral to the list on types of damage that transmuting causes. Apparently, Cloudburst was going to be a Mithral sword but for some reason they dropped that aspect of it.

I agree about the air ellies though.

[Borror0]

But when I solo, I use a whole different set of tactics, and ranged attack becomes highly effective, at least for me.

AH! Ok, when you're soloing ranged is better. That makes sense.


Well Borror, I'm not going to get into yet another argument with you
I have always failed to see why it is such badly seen to challenge one's opinions in United States...

[QuantumFX]

5 tiny questions? :D

re 1b: I wish they'd put all the air ellies back in

Or make air eles work more like their P&P counterparts so the non reaver tank melees can have something to do rather than wait for the archers/casters to kill them.

[Strakeln]

How is a S&B intimitank better in that situation than a TWF intimitank that pulls out a shield?Which is more likely to take feats/enhancements to improve their use of the shield? Example: Dwarven shield mastery, +3 DR.

[Strakeln]

So? TWF doesn't prevent you from using Intimidate. It only means tomorrow's intimitank is a TWFer, if they don't act.

Can DR Help? Sure. But AC + DPS helps better.Well, like I said, it's changing, it's not there yet.

In fact, in one of my examples, DPS is irrelevant (not doing much damage to Xyzzy for most of that quest).

Out of curiosity, what kind of AC difference are we talking about here, with TWF vs S&B? I notice that A_D restricted his argument to tower shields only, presumably due to the dex bonus cap. Are we talking about 90 vs 92? or 70 vs 90? It makes a hell of a difference in the argument.

[Strakeln]

Uh, a TWF intimidator can do those jobs either better (higher AC)My same question from my previous post applies here.


or nearly equal (blocking with that very same shield)Exactly.

[Angelus_dead]

Which is more likely to take feats/enhancements to improve their use of the shield? Example: Dwarven shield mastery, +3 DR.
Anyone who feels blocking DR is worth the AP can take it. But that's hardly worth anything, because compared to your base DR 5 + 15 + 2 + 16/2 = 30, another 3 isn't a an amazing boost.


Well, like I said, it's changing, it's not there yet.
Yes, that's what you said. You just didn't give any even tiny justification for why you think that's true.

The fact that it's helpful for one guy to hold aggro on a couple raid bosses does nothing to support S&B combat style- nor does it imply the start of a trend to make S&B more helpful later.

[Muirtach]

I have always failed to see why it is such badly seen to challenge one's opinions in United States...

Has nothing to do with the US. It has everything to do with people recognizing others who refuse to alter their opinions.

[Borror0]

Which is more likely to take feats/enhancements to improve their use of the shield? Example: Dwarven shield mastery, +3 DR.
The TWF has enough room to take it if he'd like.

Well, like I said, it's changing, it's not there yet.
Huh?!

In fact, in one of my examples, DPS is irrelevant (not doing much damage to Xyzzy for most of that quest).
That's like... incredibly rare and not really a good argument.

Out of curiosity, what kind of AC difference are we talking about here, with TWF vs S&B?

We're talking about 5 AC between a S&B and TWF Str ranger. For a dex build, the furthest I have seen is a 16 AC gap.
Oh, and the TWF still did more DPS than the S&B.

[totmacher]

i'm fairly sure at this point they're not gonna go back and revamp all raids until a true plateau with the level cap has been reached. just think about it, if the game's power balance always changes every 6 months, then why go back and fix "end game" content when the meaning of "end game" shifts? and I believe the true plateau will be 20 because it coincides with PnP...

then the game will be stabilized in terms of power distributions amongst classes and they can fix raids accordingly and in one pass as well

as opposed to fixing it now, then fixing it once the level cap goes up again, etc etc...

but that may be the hope in me talking :) i'm dumb like that

[Lewcipher]

i'm fairly sure at this point they're not gonna go back and revamp all raids until a true plateau with the level cap has been reached. just think about it, if the game's power balance always changes every 6 months, then why go back and fix "end game" content when the meaning of "end game" shifts? and I believe the true plateau will be 20 because it coincides with PnP...

then the game will be stabilized in terms of power distributions amongst classes and they can fix raids accordingly and in one pass as well

as opposed to fixing it now, then fixing it once the level cap goes up again, etc etc...

but that may be the hope in me talking :) i'm dumb like that

I agree tot...My lvl 16 THF barb was awesome in gianthold...he's useless now (besides looking pretty :)) If I'm not making an intimitank or twf, I'm making a caster!

[Angelus_dead]

Out of curiosity, what kind of AC difference are we talking about here, with TWF vs S&B? I notice that A_D restricted his argument to tower shields only, presumably due to the dex bonus cap. Are we talking about 90 vs 92? or 70 vs 90? It makes a hell of a difference in the argument.
No, it doesn't make much of a difference.

The simple fact that TWF is not less already indicates a severe problem. If SnB had higher AC then we could ask the usual questions like "Is the AC boost worth the reduced attack rate?", and we'd get answers that it depends on the situation, the nature of the opponents and teammates, and the player's temperament. But when TWF has more damage and more AC then it's hard to picture even a theoretical way that SnB could be better.

What if I offer you a choice of two prize bags: Would you prefer 10 dollars and 10 euros, or 19 dollars and 10 euros? Even if you have no idea about exchange rates, you know which to take.


Anyhow, if you want to play with some numbers, I'll tell you the basics:
First, factors like Combat Expertise, Dodge feat, size bonus, paladin bonus, bard bonus, natural armor, Protection item, alchemical armor ritual, and Chattering Ring are all equally available to characters in any combat style. There is a small bias towards SnB/THF with the feat-based AC bonuses, because they have more leftover by not needing TWF, ITWF, and GTWF. But generally, you can ignore those factors and assume they cancel out (the cost in feats would be more of a constraint if there were more good feats in DDO).

For the factors that are different, a Tower build has
4 tower + 5 enh = 9 shield AC
2 ts + 2 mith = 4 shield dex, +3 fig enh = 7
8 fp + 5 enh = 13 armor AC
1 fp + 2 mith = 3 armor dex, + 3 fig enh = 6
+1 shield ritual
+2 chaosgarde
total: 9 shield + 13 armor + 6 dex + 3 dodge = 31


A non-monk TWF has
4 Shield AC (wand)
8 Armor AC (bracer)
4 Icy Rainment
14 dex
1 TWD feat
total: 4 shield + 8 armor + 14 dex + 4 dodge + 1 feat = 31

So there it's tied. Both can get +1 AC by being halfling, and the tower can get +1 by being dwarf. Adding one monk level gives
1 centered
1 air stance
8 wis
total 10

So a high-AC TWF is +41 AC over the standard shared AC sources, while Tower shield is just at +31. If he's got ranger levels then TWF has another +2 Tempest AC. More than 1 monk level would provide other bonuses.

A Heavy shield build would be based on the TWF build, but -1 by lacking TWD and +3 shield AC (from the Heavy shield above the shield spell).

Final: TWF 42, Heavy 33 (or 35 with exploit), Tower 31.

[Angelus_dead]

I agree tot...My lvl 16 THF barb was awesome in gianthold...he's useless now (besides looking pretty :)) If I'm not making an intimitank or twf, I'm making a caster!
Gianthold? You mean the place where all kills are from Finger or Destruction, unless the sorc feels generous and casts Flesh to Stone to leave you something to hit?

[Riminy]

Gianthold? You mean the place where all kills are from Finger or Destruction, unless the sorc feels generous and casts Flesh to Stone to leave you something to hit?

If only they had the mod 5 metamagic system implemented in mod 4, they could of FOD'd twice as good!

[cdemeritt]

I have always failed to see why it is such badly seen to challenge one's opinions in United States...


Well for most, it isn't that you challenge, but HOW you challenge. That being said, this line is off the original topic, so I will take this to PM when I get the chance.

Sorry to the OP for the side track here.

[Lewcipher]

Gianthold? You mean the place where all kills are from Finger or Destruction, unless the sorc feels generous and casts Flesh to Stone to leave you something to hit?


:eek: Pretty much AD:D

[Strakeln]

For the factors that are different, a Tower build has
4 tower + 5 enh = 9 shield AC
2 ts + 2 mith = 4 shield dex, +3 fig enh = 7
8 fp + 5 enh = 13 armor AC
1 fp + 2 mith = 3 armor dex, + 3 fig enh = 6
+1 shield ritual
+2 chaosgarde
total: 9 shield + 13 armor + 6 dex + 3 dodge = 31


A non-monk TWF has
4 Shield AC (wand)
8 Armor AC (bracer)
4 Icy Rainment
14 dex
1 TWD feat
total: 4 shield + 8 armor + 14 dex + 4 dodge + 1 feat = 31

So there it's tied. Both can get +1 AC by being halfling, and the tower can get +1 by being dwarf. Adding one monk level gives
1 centered
1 air stance
8 wis
total 10

So a high-AC TWF is +41 AC over the standard shared AC sources, while Tower shield is just at +31. If he's got ranger levels then TWF has another +2 Tempest AC. More than 1 monk level would provide other bonuses.

A Heavy shield build would be based on the TWF build, but -1 by lacking TWD and +3 shield AC (from the Heavy shield above the shield spell).

Final: TWF 42, Heavy 33 (or 35 with exploit), Tower 31.38 Dex? You're not talking about a TWF build... you're talking about a dex build. The two are mutually exclusive.

Also, you need to add 1 to the dex bonus for the shield build... daggertooth belt or Dwarven enhancements. While not breaking your "non-tempest, non-monk" argument by much, it does break it nonetheless.

That aside, from your breakdown, the problems (and solutions) are obvious, at least to me.

The problems:
1) Too easy to MC monk for the wisdom AC bonus (the other two points come with sacrifices - less DPS).
2) No armor (or docent) equivalent of the Icy Raiments.

Potential solutions:
1) Make the AC bonus only apply when centered; make it scale with level (100% of wisdom bonus past lvl 10, 50% at lvl 5, something like that). I can hear the screams now.
2) Good luck fixing the Raiments. Best I can think of is introducing another item, like a cloak, that gives the same bonuses but does not stack with the Raiments. I don't like that solution either.
3) Additional rituals to make up for Armored Bracer bonuses? (They'll be at +10 eventually, right? Might be too much).

[Borror0]

38 Dex?
So?! TWF has 10 points advance! Reduce to 24 Dex and the TWF is still ahead!
(24 Dex = 15 Base + 2 tome +1 enhancement + 6 item. Any TWF can get that.)

You're not talking about a TWF build... you're talking about a dex build. The two are mutually exclusive.
Huh?! This does't make sense.

Also, you need to add 1 to the dex bonus for the shield build... daggertooth belt or Dwarven enhancements.
You mean it raises the MDB?! Look again.
That aside, from your breakdown, the problems (and solutions) are obvious, at least to me.

[Vorn]

I think I'd make the monk ac only work when centered, contra pnp, and the raiments into an insight or ac bonus vice dodge, or put them in the abbot:eek:, but oh how folks would scream...shades of the evasion in full plate 'fix'.

Tough to tell whether it's worth it...lots of folks these days with the 70+ ac/evasion/gtwf builds running around...

[Ged]

Angelus_dead your example is indeed accurate, but in my opinion it does not reflect a fair representation of the entire picture. The Dexterity build has investments in both time and build resources that the far exceed the S&B build. Please bare with me while I try to explain myself. I will try to be as general as possible b/c builds, servers, and perceptions will vary.

------------------------------------

Stat Investment:
Dexterity + Wisdom
vs
Strength

The Dexterity build's Con/HPs will undoubtedly suffer as he tries to push an extra stat to 14+. The S&B adds his strength bonus to weapon damage and has an easier time applying weapon prefix's such as Wounding, Weakening when he runs into DR. Honorable mention should also be given to the increased Trip, Sunder, Stunning Blow DCs that accompany high strength.
ps. Nothing more humbling than running Titan and having to wait for a strength build to knock down the shrine/puzzle room/Illithid doors. Hope you packed your fireball clickie!

------------------------------------

Item Investment:
Icy Raiment, AC8 Armor Bracers
vs
+5 Mithril FP, +5 Mithril Tower Shield, Chaosgardes

Currently on Sarlona there are eleven sets of +5MFP, two +5MTShields and six Chaosgardes for sale on the AH. In contrast there are no +8 armor bracers and Icy Raiment binds. To my knowledge, in the last two months there has only been ONE pair of AC8 bracers (RR Elf/Drow) to hit the AH. It would appear to me that the work required to reach the peek AC on the S&B in your example is trivial in comparison to the GoP runs and AC8/RR lottery the Dexterity build has ahead of him. I know of only THREE characters on Sarlona that have managed to aquire the tandem.

------------------------------------

Feat Investment:
Weapon Finesse, TWF, ImprovedTWF, GreaterTWF, TWDefense, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack
vs
None

The feat investment required by the Dexterity build is practically scripted; leaving little room for any outside the box thinking. You would be hardpressed to fit any tactical feats, dragonmarks, etc after you pick up the Improved Critical of your choice. In contrast, the S&B build has a lot of flexibility with no feats necessary to achieve his AC. The tactical feats synergize well with the S&B's high strength and I would even consider pursuing the TWF feat chain for when the situation calls DPS. For example, Borror0's popular Dwarven Defender has a starting dexterity of 15 and is a tome away from benefiting from the entire TWF line.

----------------------------------------

BaB Investment:
The Dex build will never obtain the BaB of the S&B build due to the monk level(s). This is significant as it will cost you an attack sooner or later. For example at level 20 this will undoubtedly cost the Dex build the last attack granted at 20BaB. We can attempt to circumvent this by restricting ourselves to 1d6/20crit kamas but in doing so we undoubtedly subdue the Dex build's offensive options in comparison to the S&B with regards to DPS, W/P, Banish, Smite, etc.

------------------------------------

Shield Wand/UMD Investment:
Shield Wands - How much are these on your AH? When they are available on Sarlona the prices range from expensive to absurd. Doesnt help that even fully buffed you still have a reasonable chance of failing activation.

UMD - Gotta have it to use those shield wands! 18 ranks achieve the pinnacle AC build. Will vorpal for Titan cookies!

------------------------------------

While I believe that S&B builds need an evaluation, I dont think that they should dethrone Dexterity builds of their AC crown. It is my opinion that increased DR is the blessing they deserve. Expanding on the Shield Mastery feat chain (via enhancements perhaps) would be a good place to start. Where are those greensteel shields already?!?


Disclaimer:
I refrain from posting on these forums b/c of the way I see many great threads, ideas, and individuals ridiculed by their supposed peers. I beg of you to take a deep breath and realize that we ALL love this game and want to have it succeed. I dont think any of us have a desire to see any build or class become extinct.

[Angelus_dead]

The S&B adds his strength bonus to weapon damage and has an easier time applying weapon prefix's such as Wounding, Weakening when he runs into DR.
For stat damage TWF is far far superior, for obvious reasons.


It would appear to me that the work required to reach the peek AC on the S&B in your example is trivial in comparison to the GoP runs and AC8/RR lottery the Dexterity build has ahead of him.
As others have already explained, the max potential TWF AC is far far beyond the best Tower AC. Even if you're not close to the peak possible, you can still be ahead, and you've got lots of ways to keep growing. Upgrade the bracers from AC 6 to 7 or 8, get one of many ways to raise dexterity or wisdom, etc etc. Put on weird stat bonuses like Green Steel weapons, Alchemical Grace potions, or even the Litany of the Dead- it all brings you higher and higher.



The feat investment required by the Dexterity build is practically scripted; leaving little room for any outside the box thinking. You would be hardpressed to fit any tactical feats, dragonmarks, etc after you pick up the Improved Critical of your choice. In contrast, the S&B build has a lot of flexibility with no feats necessary to achieve his AC.
That is true, and that is why I never said there was no reason to ever make a S&B character. Borrow0 said that, but he was overstating it. The investment in ability scores and feats makes a high AC TWF character limited in flexibility, reducing your options to try something weird and special.

However, that's still a weak justification for having a S&B fighter. First off, the other abilities you can pick up with the saved feats are not actually that good. As I already explained, if DDO included a bigger range of valuable feats, then the high feat cost of the TWF style would be more of a drawback. I have frequently suggested 10-20 good feats that could be added to help rectify the problem. But so far, that hasn't really been done. Turbine hasn't even fixed the existing feats with minimal combat value (I'm looking at Improved Sunder, Slicing Blow, and Whirlwind as starters)

Aside from that, there's the issue of verisimilitude. What conceptual role should a be filled by a guy carrying a shield taller than he is? You'd expect hiim to have superior defense against at least some category of threat... but he doesn't. There's just no way for a Tower shield to be part of a maxxed AC build, or even to come close to it.

If a tower shield isn't even in contention for the top AC option, then the game design is failing to represent the kind of fantasy world players expect.



The Dex build will never obtain the BaB of the S&B build due to the monk level(s).
No. Any non-spellcaster who's interested can get BAB 16 with Madstone Boots.


This is significant as it will cost you an attack sooner or later.
FYI, missing out on an attack is usually an advantage.



UMD - Gotta have it to use those shield wands! 18 ranks achieve the pinnacle AC build. Will vorpal for Titan cookies!
Aside from the shield wands, UMD skill investment is valuable for many other purposes.

[Turial]

That's a real issue as well, but unlike the ones I listed it would be a truly hard thing to solve. Improving ranged combat to be powerful but not overpowered is a very delicate balancing act for even the best game designer, while things like "Abbot Too Hard" and "Unarmed too weak" have obvious and straightforward fixes that would have little negative impact on the rest of the game.

It's hard because it's an "entangled" problem that involves complex issues from all over the game design. To evaluate TWF vs THF you just need some simple numbers of damage per hit, attack bonus vs AC, and rate of attacking. But to judge the power of ranged combat, you must consider movement speeds, attack reach, AI behavior, pathing, terrain layout, hitpoint totals, ammo consumption, and more.... plus every factor that goes into melee balance.

/Agree

[Strakeln]

So?! TWF has 10 points advance! Reduce to 24 Dex and the TWF is still ahead!
(24 Dex = 15 Base + 2 tome +1 enhancement + 6 item. Any TWF can get that.) Slow down and read carefully. A_D posts very specifically, and I am responding specifically.

No, Borr, TWF does not have 10 points advance. A TWF with 1 level of monk, centered, has 10 points advance. You (and A_D) are splashing around the term "TWF" in a much more general sense than it is.

Not every Two Weapon Fighting build is dex-based with a splash of monk and minimum 26 wisdom. While you may argue that it should be, the argument you and A_D are presenting is much more specific than how it is being presented.


You mean it raises the MDB?! Look again.Not sure what you mean. http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/jgould2005/DDO/Items/DaggertoothsBelt.jpg

[Strakeln]

Anyone who feels blocking DR is worth the AP can take it. But that's hardly worth anything, because compared to your base DR 5 + 15 + 2 + 16/2 = 30, another 3 isn't a an amazing boost.Agreed.


Yes, that's what you said. You just didn't give any even tiny justification for why you think that's true.Aside from the two examples and all.


The fact that it's helpful for one guy to hold aggro on a couple raid bosses does nothing to support S&B combat style- nor does it imply the start of a trend to make S&B more helpful later.And that, A_D, is what you think. I think differently. Thank you for sharing your opinion.

[Angelus_dead]

Aside from the two examples and all.
No, that's simply not true, as has already been explained a few times in this thread, by myself and others.

You are incorrectly conflating the concepts of "Intimitank" and "Shield Fighting Style". In reality, they are not bound together, and the best intimitanks are those who use TWF for more AC, more DPS, and more vorpaling.

Demonstrating that there are a few raid bosses whom it is useful to fight with an intimitank does exactly nothing to promote the idea of an S&B fighting style. Even if 100% of future DDO quests contained a boss you had to intimidate while others fight him, that would do nothing to make S&B more useful going forward.


And that, A_D, is what you think. I think differently. Thank you for sharing your opinion.
My "opinion" is supported by detailed facts and logical reasoning. You can try that, if you like.

[Strakeln]

As others have already explained, the max potential TWF AC is far far beyond the best Tower AC.Ged, what he's really saying is that one specific build (read: dex based, high wisdom, minimum one level of monk, centered and stanced) has AC that is far far beyond the best Tower AC.

I don't disagree with your overall argument that S&B needs some love, A_D, but I do disagree with how you're representing it. "TWF builds" can meet and slightly exceed S&B builds in terms of AC, and this is arguably wrong given the current state of DDO.

In regards to your specific build, without knowing whats coming up, we simply don't know how this will play out. Looking forward to level 20, I can see at least two reasons your max potential TWF AC build would have concerns:

- BaB, unless you want to take the DPS hit and use kamas
- "Super" level 20 straight-class enhancements that MC characters can never gain access to. A dev long ago said "don't multiclass, ever"... I took that to imply powerful level 20 enhancements.

[Borror0]

Slow down and read carefully. A_D posts very specifically, and I am responding specifically.
I just meant to say it didn't matter much, in the end.


No, Borr, TWF does not have 10 points advance.

Ok, right. He doesn't. Want to go Str-based TWF? Let's have some fun!

A Str-based ranger can have:
10 Base
+7 Dexterity
+9 Armor (with Stone of Change ritual - becomes 10 if you get 8 AC bracer)
+2 Tempest
+1 Two-Weapon Defense
+8 Dodge (Icy Rainment, Chattering Ring, Dodge feat)
+4 Insight
+5 Deflection
46 unbuffed AC (51 with Combat Expertise)
+5 Barkskin
+1 Dodge (Haste)
+4 Shield (Shield wand)
56 AC self-buffed (61 with Combat Expertise)
+3 Favored Defense
59 AC vs favored enemies (64 with Combat Exertise)

It's not much to pity. My S&B intimitank can have 65 AC, tops. The ranger can get even more from better Shroud weapons!

But anyway, back to you dismissing the dex-build, you're awared that those dex-builds do more DPS than your S&B guy, right?


Not every Two Weapon Fighting build is dex-based with a splash of monk and minimum 26 wisdom. While you may argue that it should be, the argument you and A_D are presenting is much more specific than how it is being presented.
They don't need to be dex-based and that was the point of my intervention. Check this build. (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=153948)

Not sure what you mean.
Look at AD's post. He already added FAM...

And that, A_D, is what you think. I think differently. Thank you for sharing your opinion.
Being situationally helpful means you're a strong build?! I guess that makes an 8 Str, 10 Dex and 6 Con rogue a strong build then.

They're good at traps!:rolleyes:

Seriously, Straklen, it's not because you're better in some rare situations that you can state that everything is alright.

[Borror0]

- BaB, unless you want to take the DPS hit and use kamas
- "Super" level 20 straight-class enhancements that MC characters can never gain access to. A dev long ago said "don't multiclass, ever"... I took that to imply powerful level 20 enhancements.

Why would the BAB be a DPS hit? If they add another attack at 20, lower BAB will result in better DPS!

As for "don't multiclass, ever", that was HSinclair which does not work for Turbine for over a year. Also, you're taking her out of context. The whole quote was something around the lines as "It is really hard for us Developers to think and balance for every single build out there. If you want to avoid nerfing, don't multiclass ever. That will protect you from a lot of nerfs."

Not to mention that an overpowered ability at level 20 would be an horribly stupid idea.

[Strakeln]

You are incorrectly conflating the concepts of "Intimitank" and "Shield Fighting Style". In reality, they are not bound together, and the best intimitanks are those who use TWF for more AC, more DPS, and more vorpaling.I absolutely agree they are not bound together. My point was that the DR (as well as other side benefits like healing amplification) makes it better suited for the example. I did list it but didn't think it worthwhile to explain about the 15DR that I know you are well aware of.

You still seem to think that I'm arguing against your overall point. Your assertion that the best intimitanks are TWF may or may not be true for the game in general, but it isn't for the example I was addressing.


Demonstrating that there are a few raid bosses whom it is useful to fight with an intimitank does exactly nothing to promote the idea of an S&B fighting style.Correct. But that is not what I demonstrated. I demonstrated that the two most recent raids have bosses whom it is useful to fight with an intimitank, and pointed out that the shield DR is exceptionally handy in one of those raids, especially from a cleric's point of view.

I stated that I think this is may provide some insight into the future usefulness of S&B builds. You stated you disagreed, multiple times.

I think I get it now. You... don't think this is a trend? Cool! I do! Do you want to tell me again?


My "opinion" is supported by detailed facts and logical reasoning. You can try that, if you like.Your argument is much more specific than you want everyone to think. If you were using facts, you wouldn't be flippantly saying "TWF" when in reality you are talking about a rather specific build.

My opinion, in addition to everything yours contains, is also not deceitful. You can try that too, if you like.

[Angelus_dead]

Why would the BAB be a DPS hit? If they add another attack at 20, lower BAB will result in better DPS!
We can't be sure of that. It has been a typical pattern so far that extra attacks from increased BAB have often decreased your overall attack rate, because the newer attacks are more elaborate and slower than the previous ones. But potentially that situation could be reversed at BAB 20, and maybe the new attack will take minimal animation time.

That isn't something you can plan for. However, a multiclassed character will actually have flexibility at level 20, and can pick whether or not to use the full animation by choosing whether to activate Madstone Boots.

[Angelus_dead]

I stated that I think this is may provide some insight into the future usefulness of S&B builds. You stated you disagreed, multiple times.

I think I get it now. You... don't think this is a trend? Cool! I do! Do you want to tell me again?
Ok, I won't repeat it. But I would love to see your description of where you see a trend of any kind.


Your argument is much more specific than you want everyone to think. If you were using facts, you wouldn't be flippantly saying "TWF" when in reality you are talking about a rather specific build.
What part of "Peak potential AC" do you not understand?

[Strakeln]

It's not much to pity. My S&B intimitank can have 65 AC, tops.You're kidding, right? My barbarian can hit a higher AC than that...


But anyway, back to you dismissing the dex-build, you're awared that those dex-builds do more DPS than your S&B guy, right?I didn't dismiss the dex build, Borr0. I pointed out that the argument was not about "TWF". It was about "dex based TWF" (actually, dex based TWF with 1 level of monk and 26 minimum wisdom).

And, uh, the only S&B guy that I have is a cleric...


They don't need to be dex-based and that was the point of my intervention.Well, yes and no. They don't need to be dex based to be within a few points (above or below) a S&B build. They do need to be dex based to be at the "insanely high" levels above S&B (again, monk splash, can't wear armor).


Look at AD's post. He already added FAM...Yes. But what if the class is not a fighter, or not high enough of a fighter to take FAM 2? Also, the belt stacks with Dwarven armor mastery.


Being situationally helpful means you're a strong build?! I guess that makes an 8 Str, 10 Dex and 6 Con rogue a strong build then.

They're good at traps!:rolleyes:

Seriously, Straklen, it's not because you're better in some rare situations that you can state that everything is alright.Borr, please, it's annoying enough arguing with A_D. If you want to argue with me as well, at least argue against the points I actually state, and don't make up things I didn't say.

Show me where I "state[d] that everything is alright".

Show me where I said anything about a strong build.

Also, show me where I said this was the only thing such a build could do. You know as well as I do that it'd be pretty difficult to build something that could do one thing well, and only that thing.

Since it is evidently not clear, here is what I am getting at: things are not as bad as A_D wants people to think. Things are a bit out of whack. We don't know what the future holds, and I think we've been given a glimpse into the future and may see more uses for S&B play as the future rolls on.

Funny to see the comment in this thread about getting insulted when people disagree with you... you guys are absolutely ridiculous in this thread.

Yeah, it definitely ain't the disagreeing... it's how it's done, A_D and Borr.

[Strakeln]

Why would the BAB be a DPS hit? If they add another attack at 20, lower BAB will result in better DPS!Heh, quite possible, but not known for sure.


As for "don't multiclass, ever", that was HSinclair which does not work for Turbine for over a year. Also, you're taking her out of context. The whole quote was something around the lines as "It is really hard for us Developers to think and balance for every single build out there. If you want to avoid nerfing, don't multiclass ever. That will protect you from a lot of nerfs."I think it was a different quote, from someone with an E in the beginning of a name. I'd love to search for it and all, but it's old, and threads get deleted.

Along the same lines, though. It started with something like "if there was one piece of advice I could give, it would be to not multiclass, ever".

I do agree that the statement is old, possibly out of context (again, can't find it), and certainly doesn't feel relevant given the DDO that has been fleshed out since. I still suspect some uber level 20 enhancements for straight classes, though. There just has to be some incentive to remain straight-classed.


Not to mention that an overpowered ability at level 20 would be an horribly stupid idea.Depends. Think along the lines of Barb crit rage - an awesome, powerful enhancement, but it brought barbs from 3rd class citizen to kings of DPS for about 2.5 weeks.

I think they could make something up that was very enticing but not overpowered. I may have too much faith.

[Strakeln]

Ok, I won't repeat it. But I would love to see your description of where you see a trend of any kind.100% of the high level content in the last 5 months. It's not a big one, but it's a trend.


What part of "Peak potential AC" do you not understand?What part of "full disclosure" don't you?

[Angelus_dead]

Borr, please, it's annoying enough arguing with A_D.
Look, you were the one who decided to reply to Borro0's complaint. The whole issue of "There's no reason to build an S&B fighter" was his topic, and you decided to dispute it (as I'll remind you below)


If you want to argue with me as well, at least argue against the points I actually state, and don't make up things I didn't say.

Show me where I "state[d] that everything is alright".

Show me where I said anything about a strong build.
You want to be reminded of what you typed? Fine:



3b. Are you satisfied that there are reason at all to build a S&B build?

I think this is changing, slowly and ever so slightly.
Strakeln then proceeded to give examples of places that an intimidator was useful, and which did nothing to support his premise that S&B builds were becoming more useful.


Yeah, it definitely ain't the disagreeing... it's how it's done, A_D and Borr.
I wish I was allowed to remind you how true that is.

[Strakeln]

Look, you were the one who decided to reply to Borro0's complaint. The whole issue of "There's no reason to build an S&B fighter" was his topic, and you decided to dispute it (as I'll remind you below)Did you read past the part you quoted? I'm not complaining about discussing things with Borr0. I'm complaining about him putting words into my mouth that he knows weren't there.

You need to stop quoting before you're finished reading (or comprehending, whatever).



You want to be reminded of what you typed? Fine:Mmmmkay... yeah, you showed me. Because the text you quoted so said "everything is alright", then went on to say some stuff about a "strong build".

Let's take a look again at what you quoted: "I think this is changing, slowly and ever so slightly". What language are you reading that in? Because I don't see anything about "being alright" or "strong builds".

I might need glasses, though.

[Desteria]

Well, like I said, it's changing, it's not there yet.

In fact, in one of my examples, DPS is irrelevant (not doing much damage to Xyzzy for most of that quest).

Out of curiosity, what kind of AC difference are we talking about here, with TWF vs S&B? I notice that A_D restricted his argument to tower shields only, presumably due to the dex bonus cap. Are we talking about 90 vs 92? or 70 vs 90? It makes a hell of a difference in the argument.

Id say a sheidl guy vers a tWF ranger monk your talkign in the 70 vr's 90 range.

[Desteria]

------------------------------------

Feat Investment:
Weapon Finesse, TWF, ImprovedTWF, GreaterTWF, TWDefense, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack
vs
None

The feat investment required by the Dexterity build is practically scripted; leaving little room for any outside the box thinking. You would be hardpressed to fit any tactical feats, dragonmarks, etc after you pick up the Improved Critical of your choice. In contrast, the S&B build has a lot of flexibility with no feats necessary to achieve his AC. The tactical feats synergize well with the S&B's high strength and I would even consider pursuing the TWF feat chain for when the situation calls DPS. For example, Borror0's popular Dwarven Defender has a starting dexterity of 15 and is a tome away from benefiting from the entire TWF line.

----------------------------------------

BaB Investment:
The Dex build will never obtain the BaB of the S&B build due to the monk level(s). This is significant as it will cost you an attack sooner or later. For example at level 20 this will undoubtedly cost the Dex build the last attack granted at 20BaB. We can attempt to circumvent this by restricting ourselves to 1d6/20crit kamas but in doing so we undoubtedly subdue the Dex build's offensive options in comparison to the S&B with regards to DPS, W/P, Banish, Smite, etc.

------------------------------------


Well the S&B ac build shoud have dodge as well ;)

re BaB MY 8 str haflign monk/ranger 10/6 with out the tharn's goggles Vr's my 33 str Dwarf THF fighter/pally/rgr 12/3/1 with Tharn's so they BOth have backstab 5/8, Both have min2 weapons both have force ritual, Fighter has PA monk has CE, figuter has bloodstone monk has NO seeker, useign a very good dps tool though now a bit outdated for the changes for TWF attacks at bab 15&the extra one with the extra bab1 attack the monk is STILL 10+ DPS over the fighter, the fighter has 50ish buffed ac the monk has 90, we can assume the for very RUFF caculation the glacing blows are = to the 2 twf attack that the monk is missing form his DPS in reality i'm sure the monks one hit harder becasue even with 8 base str hes hititng for 40+ with the holy/foce/slicing etc.
I can garenty no S&B has the same DPS as a THF sooooo by that logic for DPS option TWF Kamas kick the S&B's BUTT...
As for Wop WEll S5B could have 1 WoP rapier but TWF can have w Wounders 1 WoP rapier is goign to compair VERY close to 2 Wounders
Smiting is a bitt better 30% for a Rapier with S&B but dule Kama's are 10+10% for 20% so still not half bad.
Banishing HUGE win for S&B I agree the TWF will proyllnot have IC bludgon BUT if they ever alow TWF with fists or add any blunt monk wepaons, (nuchku for eg), you may see soem monks taking it, heck my monk may take it at levle 18 any way for lack of a better feat to take.. then it ends up smae as smiting an edge to S&B but not a very big one

SO in the END
TWF AC Kamas VR's S&B
DPS - TWF WIN
Wounding - TIE BUT only if the S&B has WoP rapier duel woundign kama's area EASTY to get WoP rapiers take enough tresure that any snesable adveturer woudl say **** that I'm retierign building the worlds biggest castle and takign life easy ;) -half a point for S&B needing arguable the hardest and most valuable single item in the game to get short of possibel abbot loot.
Banishing - S&B WIN but then most banisable stuff can be wounded almost as fast or vorped still a S&B win but it would be half a win if they actuly had blunt monk TWF weapons imo
Smiting - S&B but not by much I'll still giovem a full poiitn though
AC - HUGE win to AC monk liek almost an entier d20 worth of AC thats got to be 2 points
VORP - TWF WIN
over all TWF 4 S&B 2-.5=1.5
And the Winner is TWF

Hard to give a reason to play S&B when Kamas demolishes it, and you don;t even want to think abotu what happens when it;s a 15 ranger 1 monk TWF AC guy because then he can use DULE rapiers to the S&B everything so it;s nothign buy winwinwin.

[Desteria]

Correct. But that is not what I demonstrated. I demonstrated that the two most recent raids have bosses whom it is useful to fight with an intimitank, and pointed out that the shield DR is exceptionally handy in one of those raids, especially from a cleric's point of view.

I dotn think we have every run an intimie tank though VoD Elite (our normla runngin dificulty), we never on pourpose take more then 2 cleric have taken zero and 3 bards, or 1 cleric 1 bard and a UMD sorc(sorc for the AC tank) and we consider it a BAD run if even oen pot is drunk... What do we use to make this work well Simp we use TWF AC monk/rangers mostly they hold agro just fine with DPS and vorp much faster then a S&B does for the tiem syou have delivs and no SuLu and do more DPS when you ahve orthoins and no SULU, though often they will juts hit all teh orhtons and gorup them away for the main group to peal off btu it;s works just fine useign DPS to do this intimidate is not needed. A Good AC tank takes LESS then 15 hits the WHO length of the VOD raid i havernt paid much attention to axacly how much damage Sulu does but less then 15 hits x Z damage aint gona amount to more then ANY oen wiht 4 or 5 scrolls cant heal up ;)

[Angelus_dead]

Weapon Finesse, TWF, ImprovedTWF, GreaterTWF, TWDefense, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack
You'd never take both TWF+ITWF and Mobility+SA on the same character. Spring Attack is only useful if you have ranger6 to get tempest, but if you have those ranger levels you get ITWF free.

In practice you wouldn't take TWD either; it's just part of the demonstration that TWF characters could get much much more AC than shielders, if they really wanted to. (And of course, if the shield guy wanted the best AC he'd have Dodge himself)

[Borror0]

You're kidding, right? My barbarian can hit a higher AC than that...
Self-buffed? No.

(actually, dex based TWF with 1 level of monk and 26 minimum wisdom).
Again, no!!! It's dex-based, or Str-based with monk splash.

Well, yes and no. They don't need to be dex based to be within a few points (above or below) a S&B build. They do need to be dex based to be at the "insanely high" levels above S&B (again, monk splash, can't wear armor).
So? So? They are above S&B. That, in itself, is a huge problem.

S&B wasn't worth the sacrifice before, even if it had the highest AC potential. Now, it's a real joke.

And yes, armored TWF can reach that high too:
10 base
8 Dex
11 Kundarak Delving Suit (w/ ritual)
1 TWD
2 Chaosgarde
3 Chattering Ring
1 Dodge feat
5 Deflection
4 Insight
2 Tempest
5 Combat Expertise
52 AC Unbuffed
4 Shield (spell)
5 Natural (Barkskin)
1 haste
62 AC Self-buffed
3 Favored Defense
65 AC Self-buffed against favored enemies

Yes. But what if the class is not a fighter, or not high enough of a fighter to take FAM 2? Also, the belt stacks with Dwarven armor mastery.
Then we got a problem with Fighter's Tower Shield Mastery. ;)

Since it is evidently not clear, here is what I am getting at: things are not as bad as A_D wants people to think.
It is. Sorry, but when a build can do much more damage and more AC wihtout being S&B... there is something seriously wrong.

We don't know what the future holds, and I think we've been given a glimpse into the future and may see more uses for S&B play as the future rolls on.
Then it would be really idiotic to change the function of S&B this late in the development, would it? I doubt that is Turbine's plan.

[Borror0]

100% of the high level content in the last 5 months. It's not a big one, but it's a trend.
One quest out of the only two high level raids we got out of the last Module?

The only trend that it reveals is that the development has slowed down furthermore. By the logic you're using, we could have concluded after Module 5that from now on every quest in DDO would be nearly uncompleted because the Abbott was so. It'd be a trend if we'd have multiple non-raid instances of the like.

Let's take a look again at what you quoted: "I think this is changing, slowly and ever so slightly". What language are you reading that in? Because I don't see anything about "being alright" or "strong builds".

I might need glasses, though.

Strong build:



How is a S&B intimitank better in that situation than a TWF intimitank that pulls out a shield?Which is more likely to take feats/enhancements to improve their use of the shield? Example: Dwarven shield mastery, +3 DR.
As for "being alright", it's your attempts to diminish the issue.

[Desteria]

Self-buffed? No.

Again, no!!! It's dex-based, or Str-based with monk splash.

So? So? They are above S&B. That, in itself, is a huge problem.

S&B wasn't worth the sacrifice before, even if it had the highest AC potential. Now, it's a real joke.

And yes, armored TWF can reach that high too:
10 base
8 Dex
11 Kundarak Delving Suit (w/ ritual)
1 TWD
2 Chaosgarde
3 Chattering Ring
1 Dodge feat
5 Deflection
4 Insight
2 Tempest
5 Combat Expertise
52 AC Unbuffed
4 Shield (spell)
5 Natural (Barkskin)
1 haste
62 AC Self-buffed
3 Favored Defense
65 AC Self-buffed against favored enemies

Then we got a problem with Fighter's Tower Shield Mastery. ;)

It is. Sorry, but when a build can do much more damage and more AC wihtout being S&B... there is something seriously wrong.

Then it would be really idiotic to change the function of S&B this late in the development, would it? I doubt that is Turbine's plan.

I agree mate there is somethign wrong when a STR ranger can get the same AC as a S&B and be the highest sustained DPS charater in the game at the same time Sheilds and heaver armor need some help, there are a few ways todo it add mroe sheidl rituals is level 2 3 etc BUT fro the love of god make them use easyer to get stuff...

Make named sheilds with BIG stacks other AC bonuses on them IE mith tower sheidl wiht +4 dodge same for varius armor make soem ste sof named armor with +4 dodge on it because icy was BAD it made a bad situation worse, you know +5 mith FP with +4 dodge insted of +4 deflection would have worked for the VoD armor ;)

Now I LOVE my AC monk and i hope he does nto get nerfed to oblivian because i did plan him carfulyly to REALLY max his AC and i DID take a hit to DPS, i actuyl expected his DPS level to be very similar to S&B and was supprised when i started runnign the number and foudn him comeign out ahead still I axpected to win out when woundign or vorping but 8st no PA and still winnign out on DPS was a bit of a supprise when i realyl started runnign the numbers.

[GlassCannon]

We still have heard NOTHING from the Devs.

This has been purely a flamewar about DPS vs AC vs TWF/Monk Bast*rd classes.

[Borror0]

I think it was a different quote, from someone with an E in the beginning of a name. I'd love to search for it and all, but it's old, and threads get deleted.
David Eckelberry? (Or something like this) He quit DDO before I even joined!:eek:

HSinclair took his place and said the quote I told you about. Did David explain it more? I doubt it very much. I'm guessing his point was the same as Heather's.

I think they could make something up that was very enticing but not overpowered. I may have too much faith.
Well, I certainly hope not.

It is good design to encourage build diversity. It is bad design to restrict it! Even more if you punish players along the way.

[Borror0]

Make named sheilds with BIG stacks other AC bonuses on them IE mith tower sheidl wiht +4 dodge same for varius armor make soem ste sof named armor with +4 dodge on it because icy was BAD it made a bad situation worse, you know +5 mith FP with +4 dodge insted of +4 deflection would have worked for the VoD armor ;)
I don't like the idea of fixing broken...

Now I LOVE my AC monk and i hope he does nto get nerfed to oblivian because i did plan him carfulyly to REALLY max his AC and i DID take a hit to DPS, i actuyl expected his DPS level to be very similar to S&B and was supprised when i started runnign the number and foudn him comeign out ahead still I axpected to win out when woundign or vorping but 8st no PA and still winnign out on DPS was a bit of a supprise when i realyl started runnign the numbers.
Yeah, I was explaining the monks got no DPS' crew back then that monks can have crazy high damage and better DPS than S&B. For that reason, they are hard to balance because if we were to give them higher DPS potential, we would end up creating something really imbalanced, at the very least in comparison to S&B characters.

I was for giving them a 'DPS mode', but we had to be careful because they can get AC without any major sacrifice.

[Maegin]

No, it doesn't make much of a difference.

The simple fact that TWF is not less already indicates a severe problem. If SnB had higher AC then we could ask the usual questions like "Is the AC boost worth the reduced attack rate?", and we'd get answers that it depends on the situation, the nature of the opponents and teammates, and the player's temperament. But when TWF has more damage and more AC then it's hard to picture even a theoretical way that SnB could be better.

What if I offer you a choice of two prize bags: Would you prefer 10 dollars and 10 euros, or 19 dollars and 10 euros? Even if you have no idea about exchange rates, you know which to take.


Anyhow, if you want to play with some numbers, I'll tell you the basics:
First, factors like Combat Expertise, Dodge feat, size bonus, paladin bonus, bard bonus, natural armor, Protection item, alchemical armor ritual, and Chattering Ring are all equally available to characters in any combat style. There is a small bias towards SnB/THF with the feat-based AC bonuses, because they have more leftover by not needing TWF, ITWF, and GTWF. But generally, you can ignore those factors and assume they cancel out (the cost in feats would be more of a constraint if there were more good feats in DDO).

For the factors that are different, a Tower build has
4 tower + 5 enh = 9 shield AC
2 ts + 2 mith = 4 shield dex, +3 fig enh = 7
8 fp + 5 enh = 13 armor AC
1 fp + 2 mith = 3 armor dex, + 3 fig enh = 6
+1 shield ritual
+2 chaosgarde
total: 9 shield + 13 armor + 6 dex + 3 dodge = 31


A non-monk TWF has
4 Shield AC (wand)
8 Armor AC (bracer)
4 Icy Rainment
14 dex
1 TWD feat
total: 4 shield + 8 armor + 14 dex + 4 dodge + 1 feat = 31

So there it's tied. Both can get +1 AC by being halfling, and the tower can get +1 by being dwarf. Adding one monk level gives
1 centered
1 air stance
8 wis
total 10

So a high-AC TWF is +41 AC over the standard shared AC sources, while Tower shield is just at +31. If he's got ranger levels then TWF has another +2 Tempest AC. More than 1 monk level would provide other bonuses.

A Heavy shield build would be based on the TWF build, but -1 by lacking TWD and +3 shield AC (from the Heavy shield above the shield spell).

Final: TWF 42, Heavy 33 (or 35 with exploit), Tower 31.

Thats pretty much an end all statement right there. Dev's should really heed this post.

[drac317]

My problem isn't with ranged dmg , it's with bow speed ;which is slowwer than any other attack form,and the one item to improve it is in the Black Abbot which most people won't touch. So both need to be fixed.

[Gtar]

I read most of this thread but in the end it started going over my head. It did prove to me that I know nothing about the ins and outs of this game. (game animation time lowering dps due to elaborate swing animations)

Something I'd like to ask is, doesn't taking all of those feats for AC (dodge, mobility, twf Defence) instead of DPS (Imp critical, power critical, power attack) reduce your overall DPS?

Most of this thread reads like you can have 90ac and still have all of the DPS.

[Turial]

I absolutely agree they are not bound together. My point was that the DR (as well as other side benefits like healing amplification) makes it better suited for the example. I did list it but didn't think it worthwhile to explain about the 15DR that I know you are well aware of.
...

You are aware that a two weapon fighting build can throw up the heavy sheild from the hound to get the same amout of DR, correct? Or that the same two weapon build could wear a docent of defiance to get situational DR of 20 + Shield.

Infact throwing up the hound shield is exactly what I saw happening last night as a two weapon ranger monk beat the snot out of Sally without intimidate. Heck its what I did when I gained aggro.

[Turial]

I read most of this thread but in the end it started going over my head. It did prove to me that I know nothing about the ins and outs of this game. (game animation time lowering dps due to elaborate swing animations)

Something I'd like to ask is, doesn't taking all of those feats for AC (dodge, mobility, twf Defence) instead of DPS (Imp critical, power critical, power attack) reduce your overall DPS?

Most of this thread reads like you can have 90ac and still have all of the DPS.

Your list there has a total of 6 feats of which 2 of them are monk bonus feats that one can get through 2 levels of monk. Power critical is kinda lame as it doesn't actually add DPS it just makes it easier to land criticals, which most people don't fail to do.

A well built x/monk, where x is most likely ranger, will have the high ac and sustainable high damage. If you happen to be a warforged with a docent of defiance you can also work in DR without the use of a shield, at the cost of AC.

[Strakeln]

You are aware that a two weapon fighting build can throw up the heavy sheild from the hound to get the same amout of DR, correct?Mostly, yes (there is the shield mastery enhancement at play, but it is rather minimal).

Also, have you considered what happens to a dex-based, monk-splashed TWF build's AC when they put on a tower shield? It's not all about the DR, it's the combination of DR and AC.

[Strakeln]

Id say a sheidl guy vers a tWF ranger monk your talkign in the 70 vr's 90 range.Yep. And again, I will point out that this problem more relates to the ability to gain a wisdom AC bonus from a single splash of Monk (or, from a higher level, the ability to MC with minimal/no penalty).

For a dex-based Ranger non-monk, you're talking about 2-5 AC difference.

For a dex-based non-ranger non-monk, you're talking about a 0-3 AC difference.

For a str-based non-ranger non-monk, you're talking comparable AC.

This is my point here: is TWF AC vs S&B AC out of whack? Yes... but not insanely so. In most cases, no. But if your TWF build has a splash of Monk and the appropriate wisdom, yes.

[Strakeln]

Ok, right. He doesn't. Want to go Str-based TWF? Let's have some fun!

A Str-based ranger can have:
10 Base
+7 Dexterity
+9 Armor (with Stone of Change ritual - becomes 10 if you get 8 AC bracer)
+2 Tempest
+1 Two-Weapon Defense
+8 Dodge (Icy Rainment, Chattering Ring, Dodge feat)
+4 Insight
+5 Deflection
46 unbuffed AC (51 with Combat Expertise)
+5 Barkskin
+1 Dodge (Haste)
+4 Shield (Shield wand)
56 AC self-buffed (61 with Combat Expertise)
+3 Favored Defense
59 AC vs favored enemies (64 with Combat Exertise)This is where A_D got it right. He excluded str builds from his breakdown because his argument doesn't apply to them. But more importantly, he stripped away things that everyone can share. I will now do the same to your breakdown. Taking away what can be shared, here is what we find:

(Recall his number was 31, but it neglected the potential for 7 max dex bonus for both armor and shield)

TWF:
+8 Armor (rituals work for both)
+2 Tempest
+1 Two-Weapon Defense
+4 Dodge (Icy Rainment, Chattering Ring, Dodge feat)
+4 Shield (Shield wand)
= 19 (again, just comparing what can't be shared between S&B and TWF)

S&B:
+13 armor
+5 shield
= 18

In front of a beholder or around something being dispelled? Well, now the TWF side is three less AC. And notably less DR.

I won't even get into how many feats went towards the TWF's AC, compared to how many went towards the S&B's.

Do you see my point here, Borr0? A_D's argument is correct, but considerably more narrow - and notably LESS out of whack - than he is willing to admit.

[aldan]

While I understand the sentiment, it seems like Dev time could be spent doing better things than making the reaver raid more difficult.

I agree. Learn from the past and fix what is to come.

[Desteria]

I read most of this thread but in the end it started going over my head. It did prove to me that I know nothing about the ins and outs of this game. (game animation time lowering dps due to elaborate swing animations)

Something I'd like to ask is, doesn't taking all of those feats for AC (dodge, mobility, twf Defence) instead of DPS (Imp critical, power critical, power attack) reduce your overall DPS?

Most of this thread reads like you can have 90ac and still have all of the DPS.

WEll Gtar I belive you know me a bit soo let me say Kwaiii my Ranger 6 monk10 twf kama user will not out DPS a barb or ranger or most tWF;'s with better str that a 8 starting ;) he will ever easly out dmaage my THF STR fighter, And migh just come close to a THF barb woudl have to spend some tiem running the numbers, i was comparing where every thign was favorabel for gruf gruf has goggles kwaiii does not, gruf witha bloodstone kwaiii with out one etc and sadly kwaiii was winning KWaii has 90ac and a very decnt DPS, NOW say i;d gone for 84 AC drom wis 2 points raise str and turn on power attack insted of combat exter nothign can still really hit you and his DPS would just swell up again.
SO yes iun a lot of way you can have your cake and eat it 2 and that realyl is the problem.

*EDIT* NOTE i have imp Crit, power crit is a joke when you hit on 2+ 99% of the time any way if your concered equip a bloodstone you should never be missign on a 7 or more really or you have bigegr issues ;)
takign PA would nto be an issue for me i took a toughnes sas a filler feat fro lack of any thign better becuase I dont have the str for PA with out a +5 tome.

[Strakeln]

Self-buffed? No.Correct. His highest attainable self-buffed AC is 61, and you won't find him running around in that mode ever (defensive fighting? yeah right!). This is without rituals or a +2/3 dex tome, so the peak is a wee bit higher.


Again, no!!! It's dex-based, or Str-based with monk splash.Dex based is at best a couple of points above, situationally in a case where debuffing is not a concern. So, once again, I state that the issue is much more specific than A_D (or you) want to admit.


So? So? They are above S&B. That, in itself, is a huge problem.It's a problem. I disagree about the magnitude of it. Make monk AC bonus only apply when centered and a HUGE chunk of this problem goes away.


S&B wasn't worth the sacrifice before, even if it had the highest AC potential. Now, it's a real joke.I agree. And my point, as originally stated, was that I think we've seen some signs that this will change.

Not that I will ever prove that to you. If I'm correct, and we're seeing the start of a trend, and if things change next mod and S&B gets adequate love, you and A_D will still claim victory here. You guys will claim it was your complaining that brought about the change.


Then we got a problem with Fighter's Tower Shield Mastery. ;)Good point. I guess the daggertooth's belt would only be applicable to a Dwarf or as a way to save AP. For a dwarf, my argument still applies... and I don't feel bad restricting my example to "Dwarf" when the counter-example is defined by having a splash of at least one class, preferably two.


It is. Sorry, but when a build can do much more damage and more AC wihtout being S&B... there is something seriously wrong.More situational AC unless monk-splashed. Big difference from "more AC". I do agree that something is wrong here, just not with the magnitude of wrongness you and A_D feel exists.


Then it would be really idiotic to change the function of S&B this late in the development, would it? I doubt that is Turbine's plan.Funny, I've seen them do MULTIPLE 180's on things like this. Barbs used to suck, as did rangers, rogues, and Pallies. Pallies may still suck, I don't have one so I have no idea (but I see a lot of gripes on the boards). Frankly, I'll be shocked if we don't see some serious S&B love (whether through feats, enhancements, items, enemies, or some combination thereof) in the next mod or two.

[Gtar]

Well that's cool.

Yabba (str ranger) has top notch dps but his AC has always been atrocious. I've always been able to handle myself in parties, but with low AC, it makes soloing questionable.

I've never been much of a soloer but recently I've been levelling a WF Sorc to do a bit more of it, but then I saw that whole Rainbow challenge and now I've been thinking of making a high AC ranger with umd.

I've never been much of a multiclasser though and only have 1 character that's multiclassed.

Sorry to take this off topic and I'll leave it at that.

Time to start researching some nice high ac/umd ranger builds.

[Turial]

Mostly, yes (there is the shield mastery enhancement at play, but it is rather minimal).

Also, have you considered what happens to a dex-based, monk-splashed TWF build's AC when they put on a tower shield? It's not all about the DR, it's the combination of DR and AC.

They don't need to put on a tower shield though.

Hound Tower. (http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/jgould2005/DDO/Items/Shields/LeviksDefender.jpg) vs. Hound Heavy. (http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/jgould2005/DDO/Items/Shields/LorikksChampion.jpg)

They both offer the same DR.

[Strakeln]

One quest out of the only two high level raids we got out of the last Module?Sigh.

I'll expand upon what I wrote. The new raids are designed in such a way that groups - even PUG groups - are starting to recognize the advantage of holding agro and blocking. For one of the raids, this is arguably the best strategy. This is a change from how things have been for quite a while.

When the playerbase starts to change "normal" tactics in response to new quests, I consider that a trend. In this case, I think it relates to quest design and (character) ability limitations, and I wouldn't be surprised to see it continue. Of course, if it does, it was never a trend, it was change brought about by this thread, right? :rolleyes:

For the record, three raid bosses currently have a state where you cannot damage/kill but might like to hold agro while absorbing damage (titan, hound, and Abbot to a much lesser degree - can damage, can't kill).


Strong build:
As for "being alright", it's your attempts to diminish the issue.Where does it say "stong build" again? I really must need glasses.

And let's be realistic here, Borr... you're trying to paint this as black and white: that there are either strong builds or weak builds. Simply not true, and you know this. You keep saying "stong build", what you really mean is "peak" or "best" build. There are hundreds if not thousands of builds that are not "peak" or "best" but are certainly strong.

If this will help: I concede that a S&B build is not the strongest, most optimal build for DDO in its current state (and I challenge you to find anywhere where I have said anything to the contrary!).

[Strakeln]

David Eckelberry? (Or something like this) He quit DDO before I even joined!:eek:

HSinclair took his place and said the quote I told you about. Did David explain it more? I doubt it very much. I'm guessing his point was the same as Heather's.That might be it.

Regardless of the intent, I still feel there will be a reward for pure-class characters in the form of powerful enhancements. In fact, I'll be SHOCKED if they don't happen.


It is good design to encourage build diversity. It is bad design to restrict it! Even more if you punish players along the way.I didn't say anything about whether or not I thought it was a good idea (and as someone with only two active pure class builds, I'm not necessarily in favor of it - open to the idea at best but cautious about how it might be implemented).

[Angelus_dead]

I agree. And my point, as originally stated, was that I think we've seen some signs that this will change.
But you've never said what any of those signs are. (I happen to know such a sign, but you've never mentioned it)

The only evidence you've given to support the future value of S&B is a couple bosses whom it is helpful to intimidate. We're still waiting on how that has any relationship at all to S&B combat style: you don't need S&B to intimidate, and picking up a shield doesn't teach you to intimidate either.


Not that I will ever prove that to you. If I'm correct, and we're seeing the start of a trend, and if things change next mod and S&B gets adequate love, you and A_D will still claim victory here. You guys will claim it was your complaining that brought about the change.
No, wrong. That's simply senseless. Regardless of whether or not changes are already planned, my complaints are written in the present tense, meaning they are based only on the current state of the game

If a developer has a project going to improve Tower S&B characters, then his answer to my question ("Are you satisfied that a TWF character has more sustainable peak AC than one with a tower shield?") would obviously be false.


More situational AC unless monk-splashed. Big difference from "more AC". I do agree that something is wrong here, just not with the magnitude of wrongness you and A_D feel exists.
No, that's simply wrong. "More AC" is "More AC". To claim that "More AC" is a "big difference" from "more AC" is dishonest and irrational.

Fact: TWF builds can get more AC than Tower builds.
Fact: If you want the highest possible AC, you need to be TWF with monk levels.
Fact: Even if you refuse to take monk levels, TWF can still match the AC of a tower-shield guy, and then exceed it.


Frankly, I'll be shocked if we don't see some serious S&B love (whether through feats, enhancements, items, enemies, or some combination thereof) in the next mod or two.
Guess what? I'm shocked each time a patch comes out that doesn't fix the Black Abbot raid.

If you want to be optimistic that the devs have a secret plan to fix S&B comat, fine. But that's entirely separate from your ludicrous claim that the nature of the Hound and VOD bosses is the start of a trend to make S&B better. For that to be even slightly true, S&B tanks would need to be superior to TWF ones in those raids... and they're not (as Desteria ungrammatically explained above)

[Strakeln]

They don't need to put on a tower shield though.

Hound Tower. (http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/jgould2005/DDO/Items/Shields/LeviksDefender.jpg) vs. Hound Heavy. (http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/jgould2005/DDO/Items/Shields/LorikksChampion.jpg)

They both offer the same DR.And what will happen to a monk's AC when wearing a heavy or tower shield?

I apologize if this is confusing. From other discussions in this thread, it has become apparent that the point originally expressed (TWF higher AC than S&B, period) actually needs a few asterisks after it.

From these other discussions, it has become apparent that the difference in AC is situational and between -5 and +5 difference, unless a monk splash is considered.

To answer your original question in the context you're asking it, the S&B specialist (who would be using the tower shield) could have higher AC and more DR than the TWFer that tossed on the non-tower shield. However, the S&B specialist's advantage would be minimal and possibly negligible... and this is part of the problem.

[Borror0]

(Recall his number was 31, but it neglected the potential for 7 max dex bonus for both armor and shield)
But that sacrifice is not worth making. Both on the Dex cost (unless you got a +3 tome) and certainly not on the AP side!

He excluded str builds from his breakdown because his argument doesn't apply to them.
Ok, listen! Go on my Dwarven Defender thread. Look at the build. This is one of the most replicated S&B AC tank, with the 13/3 variation. (There are Evasion ones but that's different story - oh, by the way, TWF build can get higher AC with Evasion than S&B can.) Add everything up you'll arrive at 65 AC! That build? He can reach 61 AC! (And 64 against favored enemies which most of the content right now.)

Ranger Str-build apply.
Paladin Str-build apply.
Dex-build of any type apply.
Str-build with monk apply.

That's hell a lot of build.

In front of a beholder or around something being dispelled? Well, now the TWF side is three less AC. And notably less DR.
So?! Beholders are DPS/stat drain contest more than anything...

I won't even get into how many feats went towards the TWF's AC, compared to how many went towards the S&B's.

Go into it. Really. Tell me what feat did the build miss on.

Just because you sacrifice feats doesn't mean it's a bad thing. All in all, you look at both build and check what is better. TWF wins.

[Strakeln]

No, that's simply wrong. "More AC" is "More AC". To claim that "More AC" is a "big difference" from "more AC" is dishonest and irrational.Oh please. I suppose now we should start pretending every AC buff is on all the time. Go go improved uncanny dodge 24x7!


Fact: Even if you refuse to take monk levels, TWF can still match the AC of a tower-shield guy, and then exceed it.You're not presenting the whole argument, A_D.

Without monk levels, TWF can situationally match the AC by spending a feat. With tempest, TWF can exceed the AC by spending one feat and as a partial benefit from spending three others. A monk splash can far exceed the AC of the S&B.

But not with a 15DR shield.


Guess what? I'm shocked each time a patch comes out that doesn't fix the Black Abbot raid.That's a pretty sizeable club, I think.

[Enir]

Got on here late, but here are my 2cp.
The 'devs' are never 'satisfied'. They are always working to make the game better.
Enjoy the game; but check outside once in awhile to see if the evil yellow sphere is still shining.

[Angelus_dead]

I'll expand upon what I wrote. The new raids are designed in such a way that groups - even PUG groups - are starting to recognize the advantage of holding agro and blocking. For one of the raids, this is arguably the best strategy. This is a change from how things have been for quite a while.

When the playerbase starts to change "normal" tactics in response to new quests, I consider that a trend. In this case, I think it relates to quest design and (character) ability limitations, and I wouldn't be surprised rto see it continue. Of course, if it does, it was never a trend, it was change brought about by this thread, right?
That still doesn't make sense. As already explained 6 times above, even if that trend continues, it does NOTHING to improve the value of S&B warriors. Being an S&B warrior has nothing to do with how you can stand and hold aggro. In fact, in both those example situations, the best possible TWF tank is better than the best possible shield tank.


Where does it say "stong build" again? I really must need glasses.
Fine, here comes some pedagogy: the word "strong" refers not to the literal "Strength" score, but to a more general measure of usefulness like "power", "ability", or "value". You are claiming those raids are a trend in favor of S&B, which means you think S&B is "stronger" there because it has value there.

But in reality, S&B is not better than TWF in those places. S&B does not have value in those raids. Holding aggro on the boss depends on your intimidate skill, not your fighting style. Just because it's a job the S&B guy can do and say "Look at me, I'm helping!" doesn't mean he's got a strength there. Situational non-worthlessness isn't the same as strength.

A big mistake people need to get past: Acting like holding Shift and clicking the Intimidate icon every 6 seconds counts as using the S&B fighting style. Wrong: S&B stand for "Sword and Board", not "Shift and Board". If you're not attacking with a sword with a shield in one hand, then you're just blocking, not fighting with the S&B style.

[Turial]

And what will happen to a monk's AC when wearing a heavy or tower shield?
....

On my monk....currently nothing but I have reported that bug.

Not that its a huge loss though if puting the shield up returns me to the same AC as someone who has it (the shield) on all the time. Having a shield up only gives you DR if you actively block with it. Thus I can have my cake (DPS) and eat it too (DR and AC).

[Angelus_dead]

Oh please. I suppose now we should start pretending every AC buff is on all the time. Go go improved uncanny dodge 24x7!
Certainly not. Obviously, the specific wording under discussion is "sustainable peak AC", which was chosen for a reason. It refers to the the highest possible AC you can have for an effectively unlimited duration (in DDO, if something lasts 15-30 minutes per shrine it is effectively permanent)

However, it is true as a side note that if short-duration AC boosts are allowed, then TWF increases more than S&B does.


You're not presenting the whole argument, A_D.
...
But not with a 15DR shield.
As already explained (most recently by Turial), nobody can get 15 DR from a shield unless they're holding down Shift, which means they're not attacking with any weapon (except possibly the shield itself). If you're holding Shift, you're not using S&B at that time (because S&B, by definition, means using a weapon in the other hand from the shield).

Also as already explained, if there was a substantial delay to equip and unequip a shield then the blocking DR could count as a benefit for the S&B side. But how DDO works is that you only occasionally need to transition from attacking to blocking, and TWF/THF guys can do that by pushing one additional button.

[Strakeln]

So?! Beholders are DPS/stat drain contest more than anything...Jesus, Borr0, do I have to spell out every freakin possible situation in the game for you? I give you an example so that you may consider similar situations, you're not supposed to take the most narrow-minded approach you possibly can.

Are there situations in current endgame where you are dispelled without beholders around? Yes.

Are there situations in current endgame where you find beholders grouped with mobs that will beat the snot out of you? Yes.

Thinking a bit about it, these situations are common, even frequent. Count the times you encounter beholders + reavers/renders on the way to the hound... ever been dispelled on the way to VoD, despite there not being any beholders?

As far as the rest of your post, forget it. You and A_D just cannot seem to grasp that I don't disagree with the original intent, I simply feel you are sensationalizing it. It obviously doesn't matter how many times I show you, whether through numbers or by example, that the problem is much more specific than you guys are implying and also not as far out of whack as you imply.

Whatever. I get it, and I should have known better from the countless other threads with this show in it. There is only one correct opinion, and it is shared by A_D and Borr0.

[Angelus_dead]

As far as the rest of your post, forget it. You and A_D just cannot seem to grasp that I don't disagree with the original intent, I simply feel you are sensationalizing it.
Wrong. I was very careful not to sensationalize anything, or indeed to make any statements about the magnitude of the problem at all. What I exactly said is: "a TWF character has more sustainable peak AC than one with a tower shield"

I didn't say he had a lot more, much more, seriously more, incomprably more, ludicrously more, or use any other adjective that would have given an impression as to how much higher the number is. All I said is "more", which means anywhere from +1 higher to +500 and beyond.

And as I explained 3 times so far, the fact that the TWF can get more AC at all is a problem. The fact that certain TWF builds can get not only more AC but a lot lot more is a problem too, but it's not one I presented in this thread. I very intentionally stayed away from complexities like that.


As far as the rest of your post, forget it. You and A_D just cannot seem to grasp that I don't disagree with the original intent, I simply feel you are sensationalizing it. It obviously doesn't matter how many times I show you, whether through numbers or by example, that the problem is much more specific than you guys are implying and also not as far out of whack as you imply.
If that's what you mean, you could say that, instead of saying something different.

Here's what you actually said:
1. That the mod 7 content indicates a trend towards more valuable S&B characters in the future. That is simply false, because those raids only promote the use of intimitanks, not S&B characters specifically.

2. "38 Dex? You're not talking about a TWF build... you're talking about a dex build. The two are mutually exclusive."
That is so false as to be hilarious, which is why it got a negative reaction.

3. "No, Borr, TWF does not have 10 points advance. A TWF with 1 level of monk, centered, has 10 points advance. You (and A_D) are splashing around the term "TWF" in a much more general sense than it is."
Again, blatantly false claims about the scope of terminology.




Whatever. I get it, and I should have known better from the countless other threads with this show in it. There is only one correct opinion, and it is shared by A_D and Borr0.
No, I certainly will not always agree with Borror0. For example, he thinks a cap on Dodge AC to something like +10 would be a good idea, and that's wrong. I could probably remember some other errors, but not as clear-cut. Why, even in this thread he suggested there's no reason to make an S&B character, which I don't agree with. (There are reasons. They're weak reasons, and they lead into sub-optimal builds, but they do exist). However, he usually has correct reading comprehension and recognizes precision and logic, and he can reply to disagreements substantively.

Borror0 appears to be one of the very few active users of this board who could participate in a serious design discussion. Of course, the DDO devs generally have that ability too, but they are not active posters to the forum- and for good reason. Design means assigning value to choices, which means being judgemental and deciding what's right and what's wrong. 95% of customer suggestions are wrong for one reason or another, and for the developers to honestly respond to them would mean telling players things they don't want to hear.

[Strakeln]

If that's what you mean, you could say that, instead of saying something different.

Here's what you actually said:
Actually, that's only PART of what I said. Look further, read deeper, you will see that I said this in addition to stating, several times, that I agreed with the overall point but thought you were sensationalizing it.

Of course, you only read what you wanted to, the rest may as well not exist.


2. "38 Dex? You're not talking about a TWF build... you're talking about a dex build. The two are mutually exclusive."
That is so false as to be hilarious, which is why it got a negative reaction."So false as to be hilarious", eh? I suppose now you're going to claim that you've never seen a TWF build that was str-based? You've never seen a str-based dwarven ranger? REALLY?

Good god, A_D, it's one thing to want to bolster your argument, it's another thing to simply ignore that which you're surrounded by on a daily basis. Not every TWF build has 38 dex - or even close - now THAT is a fact, A_D, not just some BS you made up.


3. "No, Borr, TWF does not have 10 points advance. A TWF with 1 level of monk, centered, has 10 points advance. You (and A_D) are splashing around the term "TWF" in a much more general sense than it is."
Again, blatantly false claims about the scope of terminology.One of us is being disingenuous about the scope, that's for sure. I wonder who :rolleyes:


(There are reasons. They're weak reasons, and they lead into sub-optimal builds, but they do exist).I don't, nor have I ever in this thread, disagreed with this statement.

[Angelus_dead]

Actually, that's only PART of what I said. Look further, read deeper, you will see that I said this in addition to stating
Yes, of course. That's "PART" of what you said, and it is the part that was replied to. A reply made to one specific thing you said should not be construed as an attack on everything else you said too.


"So false as to be hilarious", eh? I suppose now you're going to claim that you've never seen a TWF build that was str-based? You've never seen a str-based dwarven ranger? REALLY?
To people who know the definition of "mutually exclusive", yes, that is honestly hilarious.

A simple grid of melee character possibilities can be constructed. The X axis is strength/dexerity, and the Y axis is S&B/THF/TWF. That leads to 6 basic possibilities, although some of them barely exist (Dex THF is dependent on one single rare item from Twilight Forge). However, obviously, the high-dex characters will have a strong tendency to use TWF (they already meet the ability prereqs). To claim that high-dex and TWF is "mutually exclusive" is to deny the existence of characters like that, which is so wrong as to be funny.


Your response suggests that either you don't know the definition of "exclusive", or you don't care. Whatever the reason, such a failure to communicate precisely discourages attempts to seriously respond to you.


One of us is being disingenuous about the scope, that's for sure. I wonder who :rolleyes:
Unfortunately, I'm prohibited from responding to comments of that nature.

[Raiderone]

Well Borror, I'm not going to get into yet another argument with you, especially when I was agreeing with you and A_D about how it is a delicate balance to keep ranged weapons from becoming overpowered and unbalanced, and provide an example of how it would be so.
As far as your question here, I Dunno, You're the one who zergs, not me. you tell me why most rangers are TWF vs. Ranged in a zerg? As far as most party runs ranged isn't as quick as TWF, wiether a Zerg run or not (although a party of ranged spec'd rangers/rogues/?? can be highly effective), and in those cases that I find myself in a Zerg run, I find my bow to be less effective than when I use TWF. But when I solo, I use a whole different set of tactics, and ranged attack becomes highly effective, at least for me.

I always feel that it makes sense to first range and then switch to TWF or S&B
when mob gets close. Reduce their numbers or HP's with manyshot by targetting
the last monster. I play a ranger and usually use this method. Now TWF or S&B
depends on what type of mob. Named would be S&B. I know I hate when a ranger
gets aggro with bow and then proceeds to run away.

[Borror0]

For example, he thinks a cap on Dodge AC to something like +10 would be a good idea, and that's wrong.
You've stated that a few times already, but never explained it. Not saying you're wrong, just curious about the logic you're using for that.

Why, even in this thread he suggested there's no reason to make an S&B character, which I don't agree with. (There are reasons. They're weak reasons, and they lead into sub-optimal builds, but they do exist).
Yeah, that's a more accurate representation of what I meant. I tend to overstate things...

There are reasons, but like you said they lead to sup-optimal builds. So, to me, that doesn't hold much weight in an argument.

[Angelus_dead]

I always feel that it makes sense to first range and then switch to TWF or S&B
when mob gets close.
That makes sense in an abstract theoretical way, but it's not in how DDO works in practice. (It'd be a good idea for the devs to find a way to change this)

Hypothetically characters who want to kill monsters could be attacking all the time, using melee attacks when the enemy is close enough, or changing to ranged when it's out of reach. But in practice DDO has a time delay on switching between ranged and melee weapons, which outweighs the value of the DPS from the ranged attack.

That is, if your choices are
A) attack with bow until the enemy reaches you, then attack with sword
B) run towards the enemy and attack with sword

Option B will almost always have more DPS overall. Unless you had started attacking the monster at far beyond the range where DDO enemies actually engage, you'd only have time for 1 or 2 arrow shots before closing to melee. In the time it takes to switch from bow to sword you could make 3-5 attacks with a sword, and each one is probably more damaging than a single arrow.

If it were up to me, I'd try to change this by allowing faster swapping between weapons, especially if you have the Quick Draw feat (which I have personally tested, and seen to have hardly any benefit)

[Angelus_dead]

You've stated that a few times already, but never explained it. Not saying you're wrong, just curious about the logic you're using for that.
Well I have explained it, although the reason is mainly in a negative form. But I don't want to get into that here- it was just an example that I won't always agree with you.


There are reasons, but like you said they lead to sup-optimal builds. So, to me, that doesn't hold much weight in an argument.
Yes, it's just a specific technical objection, or a "matter of semantics", as they say, which has little impact on your main point. As you know, pinpoint corrections like that should not be mis-interpreted as a generalized attack on your entire position.

[Alcides]

Personally, I think SB builds should be able to GTWF and Shield Bash at the same time. If you have the Improved Shield Bash Feat then you retain the AC of your shield while GTWF and SBing, otherwise you don't. Not exactly as good as attacking with say a khopesh or dwarven axe in the offhand, but it's damage.

[Borror0]

Regardless of the intent, I still feel there will be a reward for pure-class characters in the form of powerful enhancements. In fact, I'll be SHOCKED if they don't happen.
I'll be shocked if I see that happen.

Why, because it is something really stupid to do. Making pure class a viable options? Why not! That's a really good idea and something that should be done. Adding good abilities all the way (most productive way to do it in the long term as it favors build options) rather than just at level 20 (where it would take a seriously powerful and thus most likely overpowered ability) but in fact putting 'something' that you would, indeed, loose on by multiclassing.

I'm guess, or hoping, that they will be cautious on that. I think they clearly know it wouldn't be a good idea to **** off those that multiclassed. More even, those who intended to go pure from the very start but got frustrated by the lack of good high level abilities (most obvious in the case of paladins, but fighter too to an extend).

Make monk AC bonus only apply when centered and a HUGE chunk of this problem goes away.
That's actually not true. Even with kamas, you'll, most likely, still be doing more damage than S&B or a monk.

I guess the daggertooth's belt would only be applicable to a Dwarf or as a way to save AP.
At the cost of an item slot...

I don't feel bad restricting my example to "Dwarf" when the counter-example is defined by having a splash of at least one class, preferably two.
That doesn't make sense given to the nature of your argument...

Funny, I've seen them do MULTIPLE 180's on things like this. Barbs used to suck, as did rangers, rogues, and Pallies. Pallies may still suck, I don't have one so I have no idea (but I see a lot of gripes on the boards).
You're confusing viability and function. they are totally different concepts.

Thinking a bit about it, these situations are common, even frequent. Count the times you encounter beholders + reavers/renders on the way to the hound... ever been dispelled on the way to VoD, despite there not being any beholders?
Somehow, I disagree that they are both as common as you seem to believe they are and relevant.

[Angelus_dead]

Personally, I think SB builds should be able to GTWF and Shield Bash at the same time. If you have the Improved Shield Bash Feat then you retain the AC of your shield while GTWF and SBing, otherwise you don't.
That has support from the D&D rules, but has negative consequences:
1. The animation would look goofy.
2. Characters could only take advantage if they already had the GTWF feats.

Essentially, that suggestion wouldn't actually be improving S&B builds at all. It would be creating a new fighting style called the Basher TWF, who is a subset of TWF builds, and has all the usual advantages of TWF.

The existing problem (that someone with the TWF feats is better both offensively and defensively) would only worsen.

[Borror0]

Well I have explained it, although the reason is mainly in a negative form. But I don't want to get into that here- it was just an example that I won't always agree with you.
I know, but I'm curious about it still. If I am wrong, I would love to know why.

Maybe send me a PM about it when you got the chance?

As you know, pinpoint corrections like that should not be mis-interpreted as a generalized attack on your entire position.
Yup, agreed. Sadly many confuse the two.

I thing the best example I have heard so far is "Here's a picture where we clearly see a dinosaur and human foot print, which proves that evolution is wrong. And thus, God exists!" No matter how much you're going to explain that even if there proof were valid proofs and they that actually proven that humans and dinosaurs were present at the same time on Earth, it does not prove that evolution isn't the accurate representation of reality. And, it isn't any close to proving that God exists.

Of course, when you reverse the argument and name the moments where the Church was wrong, they admit it doe not, in any way, disprove the existence of God.

But anyway, I'm off topic now.

[Strakeln]

Yes, of course. That's "PART" of what you said, and it is the part that was replied to. A reply made to one specific thing you said should not be construed as an attack on everything else you said too.I didn't view it as an attack on everything else I said. You implied that I hadn't stated my point earlier, then provided a few examples of unrelated text to prove it. Had you used the text I posted that was actually related, you would see that I had indeed stated that very point.


To people who know the definition of "mutually exclusive", yes, that is honestly hilarious.You are correct, you got me there. I meant "independent" and got hung up on "mutually exclusive". I do agree that such a mix-up is quite laughable, and am somewhat embarrassed by my mistake.


Unfortunately, I'm prohibited from responding to comments of that nature.Well, if you feel like *****ing at me, feel free to do so via PM. I don't report, period, end of statement.

[Strakeln]

I'll be shocked if I see that happen.

Why, because it is something really stupid to do. Making pure class a viable options? Why not! That's a really good idea and something that should be done. Adding good abilities all the way (most productive way to do it in the long term as it favors build options) rather than just at level 20 (where it would take a seriously powerful and thus most likely overpowered ability) but in fact putting 'something' that you would, indeed, loose on by multiclassing.

I'm guess, or hoping, that they will be cautious on that. I think they clearly know it wouldn't be a good idea to **** off those that multiclassed. More even, those who intended to go pure from the very start but got frustrated by the lack of good high level abilities (most obvious in the case of paladins, but fighter too to an extend).While we stand on opposite ends of what we expect to see happen, I agree that it wouldn't be the smartest thing to do. I strongly agree that good abilities should be added along the way to 20, not reserved for level 20.

Out of curiousity, how do the following examples of hypothetical level 20 enhancements strike you?:
1) Tempest II (or possibly III, you get the idea)
2) Crit rage III

These are the type of enhancements (note: not necessarily these specific enhancements) I might expect to see at level 20. They are extremely powerful, yet multiclass characters can benefit from some portion of those enhancements without being a pure class.


That's actually not true. Even with kamas, you'll, most likely, still be doing more damage than S&B or a monk.Your statement is correct, but mine is as well. I said a huge chunk of the problem will go away, I didn't say the problem would be resolved completely.


Somehow, I disagree that they are both as common as you seem to believe they are and relevant.Dispelling is an incredibly common event in DDO nowadays. It may get lost in the noise of 12 characters in a party, but if you go through quests solo with a buff-dependent character (even old quests, like offering or DQ1), the commonality of it is surprising (well, annoying at least).

I will concede that the shield spell can count as permanent, but will remark that the holes in its permanence appear to be expanding.

[Turial]

That makes sense in an abstract theoretical way, but it's not in how DDO works in practice. (It'd be a good idea for the devs to find a way to change this)

Hypothetically characters who want to kill monsters could be attacking all the time, using melee attacks when the enemy is close enough, or changing to ranged when it's out of reach. But in practice DDO has a time delay on switching between ranged and melee weapons, which outweighs the value of the DPS from the ranged attack.

That is, if your choices are
A) attack with bow until the enemy reaches you, then attack with sword
B) run towards the enemy and attack with sword

Option B will almost always have more DPS overall. Unless you had started attacking the monster at far beyond the range where DDO enemies actually engage, you'd only have time for 1 or 2 arrow shots before closing to melee. In the time it takes to switch from bow to sword you could make 3-5 attacks with a sword, and each one is probably more damaging than a single arrow.

If it were up to me, I'd try to change this by allowing faster swapping between weapons, especially if you have the Quick Draw feat (which I have personally tested, and seen to have hardly any benefit)

Sadly mobs seems to have irregular speeds which limit the use of range and then melee. To see an example of this run out in an explorer area.

Run past a few mobs at your base speed - any striding items = result the mob will catch you and try to hurt you. If you however put on your striders after the mob has noticed you and is about to catch you the mob will no longer be able to catch you.

Next run past the same type of mob will striders on and even possibly haste and note that the mob will likely catch you.

There seems to be a mechanic for some types of mobs to be able to catch players regardless of the players speed unless the player gets a speed boost once the mob has been aggroed. I think this was originally a mechanic to prevent the infinitly safe kiting of mobs.

As for how this affects ranged combat and melee combat...

Ranged combat relies on distance to give it the edge in safety over melee combat. In a world were mobs, once aggroed, seem to have the same movement speed of the players it can be harder for meaningful ranged volleys prior to melee engagement and the delay in weapon switching, I really miss the mod 1 instant weapon swaps, make it disadventageous to use a ranged weapon, when a mob will close to melee range, due to the close range penalties of the ranged combat style.

A faster weapon swapping may help in a combined type of attack style but the main issue is that in 1 or 2 shots from a ranged weapon the melee weapon will deal 3-5 attacks while running to and engaging the mob. Manyshot is part of the problem as are the lack of penalties that are normally associated with ranged combat. I detailed those a while ago and won't go into them unless people want to review them.

[Borror0]

Out of curiousity, how do the following examples of hypothetical level 20 enhancements strike you?:
1) Tempest II (or possibly III, you get the idea)
2) Crit rage III
Tempest III should be at level 18.
Critical Rage III, if Devs are this crazy, will be a 17 most likely.

Tempest III may be balanced, depending on how powerful it is/how powerful other PrE are.
Critical Rage III will be overpowered, given the current form of Critical Rage II.

Enhancements of this strength are not to be placed at level 20. given it will be probably the cap for a long while.

Your statement is correct, but mine is as well. I said a huge chunk of the problem will go away, I didn't say the problem would be resolved completely.
Nope. You're addressing another issue.

[Raiderone]

Not everybody has all the items on this AC TWF list. Heck I've been playing
since beta and I don't have all the items. So the arguement for TWF vs S&B
is based being a UBER player that concentrates on getting specific items from
RAIDS.

I go on many RAIDS but at times it's hard to do them all and play multiple toons.
I don't concentrate on one toon, I play all nine toons, some I play more than others.

I also feel that theirs always a balance. Yes you maybe a high AC toon, but are you DPS. I play a S&B fighter and she's high DPS and high HP with what I feel is a good AC(upper 40's). I know my tank does some high DPS cause i've seen plenty of ranger based TWF shroud groups that couldn't keep up to her. And my tank is a 28 point build.

I play a TWF ranger and go S&B all the time especially since getting Hound bracers and shield Defender. I see a big difference between my AC S&B and AC TWF.
My AC S&B is at least 5 higher(not to mention higher To-Hit). So I see myself only going TWF versus beholders, casters and mindflayers (and others)...

[Alcides]

That has support from the D&D rules, but has negative consequences:
1. The animation would look goofy.

Animation is an aesthetics thing and is inconsequential to a game mechanics argument.



2. Characters could only take advantage if they already had the GTWF feats.

Essentially, that suggestion wouldn't actually be improving S&B builds at all. It would be creating a new fighting style called the Basher TWF, who is a subset of TWF builds, and has all the usual advantages of TWF.

My post was made within the context of shield bashing and twf at the same time. Arguing out of context is meaningless to my original post.



The existing problem (that someone with the TWF feats is better both offensively and defensively) would only worsen.

1. Using a shield would negate monk wisdom to AC.
2. Most TWF builds would favor 2 weapons instead of a weapon and a shield, anyway.
3. You do not retain a shields AC bonus when using it to shield bash unless you have the Improved Shield Bash feat.
4. Shields would have to be changed to have an enhancement bonus to attack and damage.
5. There would be little change to the existing game if you did this.

[Angelus_dead]

I play a S&B fighter and she's high DPS and high HP with what I feel is a good AC(upper 40's).
That is incorrect- S&B does not have high DPS, especially not if you're a fighter.


I know my tank does some high DPS cause i've seen plenty of ranger based TWF shroud groups that couldn't keep up to her. And my tank is a 28 point build.
If that's true, it's because those other players were incompetent (or not really paying attention, because quite a few people "sleepwalk" through The Shroud these days)


I play a TWF ranger and go S&B all the time especially since getting Hound bracers and shield Defender. I see a big difference between my AC S&B and AC TWF.
Oh really? What is the difference between the two numbers? If you're using Hound bracers you evidently don't have the Armored bracers used by true high-AC rangers.

Important note: There's a bug where Tempest Rangers get +2 AC at all times, not only when holding an offhand weapon. Most analysis of DDO AC pretends that this bug has already been fixed. If you take advantage of it, though, then the difference between your shielded and unshielded AC is higher than it really should be.



My AC S&B is at least 5 higher(not to mention higher To-Hit). So I see myself only going TWF versus beholders, casters and mindflayers (and others)...
Really.

A ranger, who seriously only switches to TWF against enemies who attack with magic spells. As they say on the intertubes, you're doing it wrong (http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=%22you%27re+doing+it+wrong%22&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&resnum=1&ct=title). That might have been a good idea prior to module 3, when TWF got some much-needed mechanical improvements. Maybe you should re-evaluate it now.

It is especially the case that when in a group with other players, the monsters will not spend all their time attacking you: sometimes they'll fight someone else. Whenever the monster isn't aggroed on you, your higher AC is wasted and you'd be more help to TWF and kill it faster. This is why many characters who TWF all the time in groups will sometimes find it helpful to switch to shield when solo. But solo is not how DDO is mainly played, and certainly not how it should be designed to be played.

[Angelus_dead]

Animation is an aesthetics thing and is inconsequential to a game mechanics argument.
Wrong.


5. There would be little change to the existing game if you did this.
Correct, that proposed change would have little real effect. Hardly any player would spend the large number of feats required to do it.

That's the largest part of the reason why it would be a waste of effort to make the change.

[Strakeln]

Tempest III may be balanced, depending on how powerful it is/how powerful other PrE are.
Critical Rage III will be overpowered, given the current form of Critical Rage II.Unrelated arguments (such as whether they should be at 18 or 20) aside, I think this would give the "proper" amount of incentive for pure classes.

And by "proper", I mean viable incentive. I am not saying it would make them the optimal build or anything even close to that.


Nope. You're addressing another issue.Opinion. I consider it all to be one multi-faceted issue. No single solution will fix all aspects of the problem, because the problem does not originate from one single source.

[Borror0]

Not everybody has all the items on this AC TWF list.
I could say a lot of S&B fighters don't have that gear either. What's your point?

If you're saying that that gear, mainly Chattering, is really hard to get, then I agreed.
If you think that refutes AD's argument, you're wrong.

Animation is an aesthetics thing and is inconsequential to a game mechanics argument.
Game mechanic? Right. Game design? No.

My post was made within the context of shield bashing and twf at the same time. Arguing out of context is meaningless to my original post.

Most TWF builds would favor 2 weapons instead of a weapon and a shield, anyway.
If you say this, it means you believe your suggestion is weak.

[Borror0]

And by "proper", I mean viable incentive. I am not saying it would make them the optimal build or anything even close to that.
Allow to disagree on that. Mostly on Critical Rage, that's... sick...

Cold Stele or Tanka, if you're around speak up about the perspective of a Critical Rage III at level 20 barbarian. :)

Opinion. I consider it all to be one multi-faceted issue. No single solution will fix all aspects of the problem, because the problem does not originate from one single source.
You are right that it is a multi-faceted issue.

However, it is not an opinion. Right now, you're addressing the "is it worth the sacrifice" part. But that is irrelevant for as long a TWF can get more AC than S&B. For as long as that will hold, making of monk AC a centered-only ability will not help. Less overpowered? Yes. But still overpowered compared to S&B.

[Raithe]

Ranged combat relies on distance to give it the edge in safety over melee combat. In a world were mobs, once aggroed, seem to have the same movement speed of the players it can be harder for meaningful ranged volleys prior to melee engagement and the delay in weapon switching,...

It isn't the mob's movement that makes it not worth switching. It's the movement of the dwarven barb next to you.

EDIT: In groups with 3 or 4 rangers who use a bow before switching to melee, things do die before getting to the group.

[Strakeln]

Allow to disagree on that. Mostly on Critical Rage, that's... sick...(I do agree it's sick)

A bit off topic, but I'm curious as to why you feel crit rage III would be overpowered, while to tempest III would not be. For sake of argument, I am assuming that the lines will continue unfettered (each crit rage installment is +1 to threat range, each tempest is +10% alacrity). My point here is that I think an extra 10% stacking attack speed is worth more in terms of DPS than 5% additional stacking crit threat range (granted, this can be equipment-dependent).

Attempting to come up with some apples-to-apples numbers and using a damage calculator, I am showing 10% alacrity wins over +1 to the critical threat range (for "all" situations - S&B, THF, TWF, even though tempest doesn't apply to any except TWF).

Am I doing the math wrong? Or is there some other aspect I am missing?

[Turial]

It isn't the mob's movement that makes it not worth switching. It's the movement of the dwarven barb next to you.

EDIT: In groups with 3 or 4 rangers who use a bow before switching to melee, things do die before getting to the group.

The barbarian is supposed to be fast. Its the fullplate wearing fighter that I would have issues with. That player movement speed in armor was a good choice in the end, though I don't like it, as it doesn't severly hamper group dynamics.

Things can die to a single ranger using a bow prior to reaching the group but that holds little sway to the concept that ranged combat is weak.

As a player I can do amazing things with a bow, things that make other players heads spin but when I do the same with a melee weapon I am many times more effective with no real definable justification for the difference from a balance standpoint.

[Turial]

(I do agree it's sick)

A bit off topic, but I'm curious as to why you feel crit rage III would be overpowered, while to tempest III would not be. For sake of argument, I am assuming that the lines will continue unfettered (each crit rage installment is +1 to threat range, each tempest is +10% alacrity). My point here is that I think an extra 10% stacking attack speed is worth more in terms of DPS than 5% additional stacking crit threat range (granted, this can be equipment-dependent).

Attempting to come up with some apples-to-apples numbers and using a damage calculator, I am showing 10% alacrity wins over +1 to the critical threat range (for "all" situations - S&B, THF, TWF, even though tempest doesn't apply to any except TWF).

Am I doing the math wrong? Or is there some other aspect I am missing?

Even without alacrity a two weapon WOP barb with crit rage3 will kill faster then a tempest ranger with WOP weapons which is the main issue most people have with critial rage.

[Raiderone]

That is incorrect- S&B does not have high DPS, especially not if you're a fighter.


If that's true, it's because those other players were incompetent (or not really paying attention, because quite a few people "sleepwalk" through The Shroud these days)


Oh really? What is the difference between the two numbers? If you're using Hound bracers you evidently don't have the Armored bracers used by true high-AC rangers.

Important note: There's a bug where Tempest Rangers get +2 AC at all times, not only when holding an offhand weapon. Most analysis of DDO AC pretends that this bug has already been fixed. If you take advantage of it, though, then the difference between your shielded and unshielded AC is higher than it really should be.



Really.

A ranger, who seriously only switches to TWF against enemies who attack with magic spells. As they say on the intertubes, you're doing it wrong (http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=%22you%27re+doing+it+wrong%22&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&resnum=1&ct=title). That might have been a good idea prior to module 3, when TWF got some much-needed mechanical improvements. Maybe you should re-evaluate it now.

It is especially the case that when in a group with other players, the monsters will not spend all their time attacking you: sometimes they'll fight someone else. Whenever the monster isn't aggroed on you, your higher AC is wasted and you'd be more help to TWF and kill it faster. This is why many characters who TWF all the time in groups will sometimes find it helpful to switch to shield when solo. But solo is not how DDO is mainly played, and certainly not how it should be designed to be played.

1)Maybe your S&B fighter doesn't have high DPS, but mine does. Believe what you want.

2)maybe everybody is incompetent compared to you?

3)My AC with S&B (hound bracers and shield) is 44 and TWF is 33.
How can you have armored bracers with hound bracers and shield? And no my ranger is STR based TWF or S&B. Not mentioning barkskin since it goes away...otherwise +5.

Others might argue how can you be high DPS, if your High AC?
But anyway, you build your toon the way you want and i'll build mine the way i want to. you take one feat and miss out on another.

[Borror0]

A bit off topic, but I'm curious as to why you feel crit rage III would be overpowered, while to tempest III would not be.

Tempest III doesn't have to be a speed boost (read: shouldn't be). just look at the rogue's second tier PrE's.

[Borror0]

Maybe your S&B fighter doesn't have high DPS, but mine does. Believe what you want.
Define high DPS? How much damage per swing? What weapon(s) do you use&

My AC with S&B (hound bracers and shield) is 44 and TWF is 33.
You call that AC?! :confused: My 65 AC Intimitank gets hit on less than 20. Your 44 doesn't help you much and certainly not as much as you think.

How can you have armored bracers with hound bracers and shield?
That was the point of AD's statement. It is not a good set.

[Cold_Stele]

Cold Stele or Tanka, if you're around speak up about the perspective of a Critical Rage III at level 20 barbarian. :)

Lol, Stele's keeping quiet on this one until he sees how the new Ftr enhancements work out.

The silly gimped Barbs and Rangers may need their new enhancements to keep up with all the new ubersaurus Ftrs and Pallies.

But I doubt it ;)

Seriously though having some level 6, 12 and 18 stuff is probably good for the game to prevent one build from dominating (which right now Barb 14/Rgr 6 looks like doing).

Tempest II could be something as simple as free OTWF which would still be desirable but not game breaking. There are plenty of other Barb enhancements that could be increased instead of Crit Rage II.

[Angelus_dead]

1)Maybe your S&B fighter doesn't have high DPS, but mine does. Believe what you want.
No, there is no high-DPS S&B fighter in DDO. It's simply not possible under these game rules.


2)maybe everybody is incompetent compared to you?
Well, it's true that I am above-average, but not the very best. Sure, I solo raids frequently, but not on elite.


3)My AC with S&B (hound bracers and shield) is 44 and TWF is 33.
How can you have armored bracers with hound bracers and shield? And no my ranger is STR based TWF or S&B. Not mentioning barkskin since it goes away...otherwise +5.
Like I just said, you can't. Hound bracers serve only to reduce the AC of the wearer, whether TWF or S&B. Whether the boosted healing and +6 strength are a fair trade for that AC drop is a separate question.


Others might argue how can you be high DPS, if your High AC?
Well, I have high DPS because of TWF Radiance II that grants me 8d6+25 sneak attack after any crit. And I have high AC because of Mineral II, Chattering Ring, Armor 8, Icy Rainment, and dex up to 38.

[Strakeln]

Even without alacrity a two weapon WOP barb with crit rage3 will kill faster then a tempest ranger with WOP weapons which is the main issue most people have with critial rage.I'd suggest this is a WoP issue and not a critical rage issue. Or, more specifically, a puncturing issue. From d20srd, a "rapier of puncturing":


Three times per day, this +2 wounding rapier allows the wielder to make a touch attack with the weapon that deals 1d6 points of Constitution damage by draining blood. Creatures immune to critical hits are immune to the Constitution damage dealt by this weapon.

3x a day would take away puncturing's uberness in about 0.0002 seconds.

Different topic, though, so please note I'm not taking a side on this. Just another example where the actual problem (puncturing) is obscured by the observed problem (barbarians + puncturing).

[Strakeln]

Tempest III doesn't have to be a speed boost (read: shouldn't be). just look at the rogue's second tier PrE's.Okay, different assumptions as to how Tempest III might be implemented, hence the "unfettered" comment.

I think it's a bit unfair to assume Crit Rage III would continue unfettered while Tempest III would not. If both were to be implemented, I suspect both would be toned down.

[Turial]

I'd suggest this is a WoP issue and not a critical rage issue. Or, more specifically, a puncturing issue. From d20srd, a "rapier of puncturing":



3x a day would take away puncturing's uberness in about 0.0002 seconds.

Different topic, though, so please note I'm not taking a side on this. Just another example where the actual problem (puncturing) is obscured by the observed problem (barbarians + puncturing).

That is your opinion. But until it (how puncturing works) is changed the observed problem is going to be the issue because they (barbarians with critical rage) can cause it to trigger on lower rolls then other classes.

But a barbarian with critical rage 3 may well out dps the ranger with tempest 3 depending on the weapons, dual deathnips come to mind. But that is my opinion and I need to run the numbers to know for sure.

[Strakeln]

Well, it's true that I am above-average, but not the very best. Sure, I solo raids frequently, but not on elite.Which raids? Makes all the difference.

Of the raids where it is technically feasible to solo, I'd say the biggest challenge has to be the Titan. I can solo two-box it pretty easily, but I've never gotten past two successful drop-fires in a true solo mode.

VoD solo remains quite impressive, but it's as much of an excercise in pocketbook potential as it is skill (as in, can you afford the mnemonics).

[Strakeln]

But a barbarian with critical rage 3 may well out dps the ranger with tempest 3 depending on the weapons, dual deathnips come to mind. But that is my opinion and I need to run the numbers to know for sure.It gets tricky there because you quickly get into back-and-forth territory. You're talking ranger vs barb, specific weapons, etc.

To be clear, I was speaking to the relative value of the enhancements in an apples-to-apples world, which may or may not be realistic depending on the specific situation. Meaning, given two builds with the exact same str stat, fighting in the same way (str or dex based, THF/TWF/S&B), using the exact same weapon. By removing the other variables and looking at the value of the (theoretical) enhancements themselves from a numerical perspective (damage calculator), I see a 10% melee alacrity bonus being more beneficial than a 5% crit threat boost.

[Borror0]

Of the raids where it is technically feasible to solo, I'd say the biggest challenge has to be the Titan.
I have yet to hear that one has been soloe. Even DDO Korean has given up on that one.

[Borror0]

If both were to be implemented, I suspect both would be toned down.
Critical Rage is a chain with continuity. PrE's don't have any.

How is that an unfair conclusion?

[Gunga]

I'd suggest this is a WoP issue and not a critical rage issue. Or, more specifically, a puncturing issue. From d20srd, a "rapier of puncturing":



3x a day would take away puncturing's uberness in about 0.0002 seconds.

Different topic, though, so please note I'm not taking a side on this. Just another example where the actual problem (puncturing) is obscured by the observed problem (barbarians + puncturing).

No. Not only are you off topic, but you quote rules from a different game.

Since you are off topic though.....I'd like to see a change here in DDO. The improved crit range enhancements for Barbarians should only work on DPS, not stat damagers.

[Angelus_dead]

Which raids? Makes all the difference
Once again: No, that does not make any real difference.

Anyone who can solo even the very easiest raid has demonstrated enough experience with game mechanics to judge whether or not an S&B fighter is high DPS.

You don't solo raids without first having done a lot of raids in groups, and if you've paid attention during that you'd know that TWF guys get more kills and DPS than S&B guys. But Raiderone claims the reverse happens: he claims his S&B character frequently outkills rangers in The Shroud.

The only way that can be true is if the rangers are incompetent: either bad/inattentive players, bad builds, bad choice of gear, or something else on that theme.

[Aspenor]

So when did this thread become about TWF AC? Borror, you've done a great job derailing A_D on this one!

[Borror0]

So when did this thread become about TWF AC? Borror, you've done a great job derailing A_D on this one!

D'oh... Sorry?

[Strakeln]

Critical Rage is a chain with continuity. PrE's don't have any.

How is that an unfair conclusion?I'm afraid I dont' know what you mean by PrE.

[Turial]

...
3. Are you satisfied that a TWF character has more sustainable peak AC than one with a tower shield, even if he has zero levels of monk and ranger?

You mean this statement Asp?

[MrCow]

I have yet to hear that one [the titan] has been soloe.

Someone did it about 3 months ago (Ilmer of DDO Europe):

Part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HeIE21-j4g)
Part 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfaUmCa-GDc)
Part 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuOor9IggBY)

[Turial]

I'm afraid I dont' know what you mean by PrE.

Prestige enhancement

[Borror0]

The improved crit range enhancements for Barbarians should only work on DPS, not stat damagers.
That's quite a good suggestion.

The only counter-argument I can think of "Yes, but rangers can swing faster so they will have the advantage at it now."

[Strakeln]

Once again: No, that does not make any real difference.

Anyone who can solo even the very easiest raid has demonstrated enough experience with game mechanics to judge whether or not an S&B fighter is high DPS.

You don't solo raids without first having done a lot of raids in groups, and if you've paid attention during that you'd know that TWF guys get more kills and DPS than S&B guys. But Raiderone claims the reverse happens: he claims his S&B character frequently outkills rangers in The Shroud.

The only way that can be true is if the rangers are incompetent: either bad/inattentive players, bad builds, bad choice of gear, or something else on that theme.Sigh.

I was simply asking which raids you had solo'd. Which ones make a significant difference in how impressed the reader is, or at least, this reader. So yes, it does make a difference, but never mind, I wasn't that curious.

[Borror0]

Someone did it about 3 months ago

Cool! Guess I was wrong. ;)

[Aspenor]

That's quite a good suggestion.

The only counter-argument I can think of "Yes, but rangers can swing faster so they will have the advantage at it now."

I think the important question here is "who cares?"

In fact I find it amusing this TWF AC thing is such a big issue. Highly amusing.

S&B has its place and role, and anybody wanting to say otherwise is not very imaginative.

[Borror0]

S&B has its place and role, and anybody wanting to say otherwise is not very imaginative.
Elaborate.

[Strakeln]

Prestige enhancementWell, I can't find this term anywhere on DDO.com, so I'm still going to have to guess at the definition.

I take PrE to mean an enhancement that is based off of a PnP prestige class, meaning there is an established formula to follow. In which case, if crit rage is DDO-only and tempest has an established forumla, then yes, Borr0, your conclusion that brought this up is fair.

Digging around online, I found a tempest prestige class that looks somewhat similar (ac while TWF goes up, bonuses to melee combat), but alacrity is not part of that and the scaling mechanics are all level 4 and under. Is there another Tempest Prestige class that I'm unaware of? If not, I would say this "established forumla" does not necessarily imply that tempest II/III wouldn't include an alacrity boost.

But, again, it feels like I'm missing some info here.

[Strakeln]

Elaborate.Careful, Asp!

http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/its-a-trap.jpg

[Aspenor]

Elaborate.

An equivalently equipped S&B is a superior meatshield compared to any other build. HP, AC, DR, etc.

You guys are just looking at the numbers and not seeing the big picture. There are more things that matter in DDO than AC and DPS.

[Strakeln]

Not only are you off topic, but you quote rules from a different game. The game that was the base for this one, right...?

I won't argue with you if you want to say puncturing isn't overpowered in DDO when on a good weapon. Despite countless builds being based around that one single weapon effect.

[Angelus_dead]

An equivalently equipped S&B is a superior meatshield compared to any other build. HP, AC, DR, etc.
The distinction between TWF and S&B is largely in the choice of equipment, so comparing them with "equivalent" gear is unlikely to give a useful result.

However, for the purpose of standing there intimidating and absorbing attacks, a high-AC TWF monk/rog/ran mix is better than anyone with a shield could be.

[Turial]

Well, I can't find this term anywhere on DDO.com, so I'm still going to have to guess at the definition.
......

Your guess is correct.

And there is information missing but its information on where things are going vs where they are compared to pnp. Only the devs can tell us what is in store..we simply grope around in the darkness and huzza when our guesses are correct.

[Aspenor]

The distinction between TWF and S&B is largely in the choice of equipment, so comparing them with "equivalent" gear is unlikely to give a useful result.

However, for the purpose of standing there intimidating and absorbing attacks, a high-AC TWF monk/rog/ran mix is better than anyone with a shield could be.

The bolded statement is an opinion, and not a fact. There is no evidence that supports it.

And the statement above that is well....just flat out wrong. By the same line of thought, you could say that comparing the two in ANY fashion is unlikely to give a useful result. As exemplified by this entire thread.

[Borror0]

But, again, it feels like I'm missing some info here.

Ok, let me explain myself.

PrE's are, indeed, based on a PnP PrC. However, as you've noticed, they don't follow a direct 'formula'. They don't import the data from PnP and implement it in DDO textually. They, rather, inspire themselves from the idea behind the build.

However, as the rogue PrE's have shown (Assassin, Thief-Acrobat & Mechanic), they don't follow a pattern like other enhancements. That's why it is quite logic to conclude that Tempest II won't be "+10 melee alacrity and +2 AC while dual-wielding". In fact, the first plans for Tempest was a STWF replacement. Same way, Warchanter II won't be the very same as WArchanter I. Or, at least, that is what the pattern shows.

Clearer?

[Angelus_dead]

The bolded statement is an opinion, and not a fact. There is no evidence that supports it.
Sorry, there's plenty of evidence. The evidence is called
More AC
Better Saves
Evasion
More Healing Factor
More Damage
More Vorpaling

[Gunga]

That's quite a good suggestion.

The only counter-argument I can think of "Yes, but rangers can swing faster so they will have the advantage at it now."

That's the point, Frenchie. By taking an already powerful weapon made even more powerful out of the barbs hands, it barely gives the whole dex build thing a fighting chance. Coding it is an entirely different issue, strictly hypothetical.


The game that was the base for this one, right...?

I won't argue with you if you want to say puncturing isn't overpowered in DDO when on a good weapon. Despite countless builds being based around that one single weapon effect.

It's overpowered and extremely rare. I have 15 characters, and 2 use WoPs. If you have grinded so much that you can outfit all 15 guys with them, than ****...you deserve 'em.


Sorry, there's plenty of evidence. The evidence is called
More AC
Better Saves
Evasion
More Healing Factor
More Damage
More Vorpaling

More AC - Potentially.
Evasion - Check.
More Healing Factor - Huh?
More Damage - for an intimitank?
More Vorpaling - What?!

Are you confused as to what an S&B Intimitank does?

[Strakeln]

Ok, let me explain myself.

PrE's are, indeed, based on a PnP PrC. However, as you've noticed, they don't follow a direct 'formula'. They don't import the data from PnP and implement it in DDO textually. They, rather, inspire themselves from the idea behind the build.

However, as the rogue PrE's have shown (Assassin, Thief-Acrobat & Mechanic), they don't follow a pattern like other enhancements. That's why it is quite logic to conclude that Tempest II won't be "+10 melee alacrity and +2 AC while dual-wielding". In fact, the first plans for Tempest was a STWF replacement. Same way, Warchanter II won't be the very same as WArchanter I. Or, at least, that is what the pattern shows.

Clearer?Yep, thanks. Looks like I was on the right path with some help from Turial.

Okay, fair enough, there is evidence to suggest that future Tempest increments may not include additional alacrity bonuses. Arguably likely, but not certain.

[totmacher]

troll hardest loyal citizens

troll hardest

:D

[Strakeln]

It's overpowered and extremely rare. I have 15 characters, and 2 use WoPs. If you have grinded so much that you can outfit all 15 guys with them, than ****...you deserve 'em.I didn't say WoP. I said Puncturing. Simply put, a WoP is a really nice puncturer.

The puncturing effect is not rare.

I have a slash-spec'd barbarian who has a pair of keen rapiers of puncturing. No one in a party can ever tell if they are w/p or just puncturers.

[Vorn]

Let me 'splain....No, there is too much. Let me sum up.

Looks like it comes down to some folks are upset with: 1) monk splashes, 2) Icey Raiments, 3) tempest 1 giving 2 points of ac. Or that S/B seem inadequate in comparison, but it looks much the same to me.

Would it satisfy the S/B crowd to 1) make monk wisdom bonus only work when centered (craftable ki weapons? lootable ki weapons like a Tai Chi-ish long sword? raid item Ki weapons) 2) make the raiments an insight bonus vice dodge bonus and/or 3) moving the ac part of tempest to tempest 2 available at lvl 12 ranger?

Can the game stand such adjustments?

[Raithe]

No one in a party can ever tell if they are w/p or just puncturers.

In a barbarian vs. other class scenario that might be true, but in most other scenarios the guy with WoP will be outkilling on at least a 2:1 ratio.

The real argument is whether or not killing something in 3.5 seconds is all that more useful than killing it in 7. Even if I had my pick of any kind of weapon that was possible, I think I might favor something like crippling or paralyzing simply because it may sometimes be useful to stop from killing whatever you were swinging at.

[Gunga]

A_D: Didn't mean to derail or get off topic on you. You know I'd never intentionally do something like that.


Here are three little questions which could help the DDO devs focus their priorities. For more specificity, I'll cheat and add two related followups.

1. Are you satisfied with the Black Abbot raid difficulty? As a conservative estimate, I'd guess that a random group of 12 capped characters is over 500 times as likely to beat the level 18 Hound of Xoriat raid than they are they to win the level 15 Black Abbot raid. Are you happy with this?
Indifferent. There are more raids than Reaver, Shroud and Titan?



1b. Are you satisfied that Reaver's Fate is popularly called an "afk quest", and that when new players come to the raid and ask for instructions the typical reply is "hang out and wait to loot"?

Yes.


2. Are you satisfied that at mid to high level TWF monks have untouchably more damage (and Ki income) than unarmed monks? Had you intended this to happen when designing the class, and are you happy that the unarmed animations get little use?

2b. Are you satisfied that monks virtually never hit enemies with "finisher moves", to the point where most players don't bother learning them if they're not heals or buffs?
2a. No
2b. No

This is a total cluster **** and ruined Monks for me. I'll roll my first Monk outside of Risia when they fix it.


3. Are you satisfied that a TWF character has more sustainable peak AC than one with a tower shield, even if he has zero levels of monk and ranger?No.

[Strakeln]

In a barbarian vs. other class scenario that might be true, but in most other scenarios the guy with WoP will be outkilling on at least a 2:1 ratio.Maybe not 2:1, but yes, killing more. That wasn't really the point for me though... I'm saying puncturing is an overpowered add-on.

Upon further thought, maybe it isn't overpowered. Maybe wounding is - or perhaps weapons that allow the combination... or perhaps most/all other weapon effects are underpowered... any way you put it, one or two weapon effects shine 10-100x brighter than their peers, and that reeks of an imbalance in power.

[Turial]

Maybe not 2:1, but yes, killing more. That wasn't really the point for me though... I'm saying puncturing is an overpowered add-on.
....

Most people wont argue with that idea to much. They may argue why it is so powerful but not that it is powerful and boarders on the overpowered.

[Aesop]

A big mistake people need to get past: Acting like holding Shift and clicking the Intimidate icon every 6 seconds counts as using the S&B fighting style. Wrong: S&B stand for "Sword and Board", not "Shift and Bored". If you're not attacking with a sword with a shield in one hand, then you're just blocking, not fighting with the S&B style.

Sorry A_D I need to correct you on this section briefly... then I will continue to read what I missed in this thread

You used the wrong homophone you had "Board" when really its more like "Bored"

:D

just saying

Aesop

[Strakeln]

Most people wont argue with that idea to much. They may argue why it is so powerful but not that it is powerful and boarders on the overpowered.Whew. I don't know if I can argue anymore today :p

[Raiderone]

Define high DPS? How much damage per swing? What weapon(s) do you use&

You call that AC?! :confused: My 65 AC Intimitank gets hit on less than 20. Your 44 doesn't help you much and certainly not as much as you think.

That was the point of AD's statement. It is not a good set.

My tank does 1d10 +20 base damage per swing plus 2d6 holy and 1d6 good burst(3d6 crit). Eventually will have supreme shard (good). Longsword and Bastard sword(may switch to Khopesh like my ranger).

Yah. I get hit but I heal myself back with almost 700 mana.

My mistake then. Didn't even realize it was a tower shield (looks to small to be a tower shield).
Gonna need to think about it. Bonus to hit +32 1d10 +16 damage per swing
on my ranger with Pos,Pos,Pos or Supreme Green Commander Khopesh.

[Raiderone]

Here are three little questions which could help the DDO devs focus their priorities. For more specificity, I'll cheat and add two related followups.

1. Are you satisfied with the Black Abbot raid difficulty? As a conservative estimate, I'd guess that a random group of 12 capped characters is over 500 times as likely to beat the level 18 Hound of Xoriat raid than they are they to win the level 15 Black Abbot raid. Are you happy with this?

1b. Are you satisfied that Reaver's Fate is popularly called an "afk quest", and that when new players come to the raid and ask for instructions the typical reply is "hang out and wait to loot"?

2. Are you satisfied that at mid to high level TWF monks have untouchably more damage (and Ki income) than unarmed monks? Had you intended this to happen when designing the class, and are you happy that the unarmed animations get little use?

2b. Are you satisfied that monks virtually never hit enemies with "finisher moves", to the point where most players don't bother learning them if they're not heals or buffs?

3. Are you satisfied that a TWF character has more sustainable peak AC than one with a tower shield, even if he has zero levels of monk and ranger?

1) I have never played the Black Abbot, cause of the difficulty in the Raid and it's sigil. So No.

1b)I quess I cannot complain after almost 100 plus Raids. Like my loot
but it would be interesting if instead of the elementals, the reaver calls the three
dragons and giants to him.

2)Haven't really thought about it. I play a lvl 16 str/wis based Monk. Use
both methods. I want Katana's.

2b)Not happy with finishing moves for most part. Too weak. plus not sure if PnP
monks would even have them.

3)Doesn't bother me. All in a build, equipment, etc. I don't compare apples to oranges. You take one path, I'll take another. TWF AC doesn't have DR.

[Borror0]

My tank does 1d10 +20 base damage per swing plus 2d6 holy and 1d6 good burst(3d6 crit).

You think that is good damage?! A monk can do more damage per swing than this!

That's very, very low DPS. Sorry to sound rude, or to burst your bubble, but that is not good damage. In fact, a TWF Dex-based build will out-DPS you.

[salmag]

1. Are you satisfied with the Black Abbot raid difficulty? As a conservative estimate, I'd guess that a random group of 12 capped characters is over 500 times as likely to beat the level 18 Hound of Xoriat raid than they are they to win the level 15 Black Abbot raid. Are you happy with this?

Since I have never run the Abbot, I really can not coment on the difficulty. From what I understand, this raid has been broken since the devs "fixed" it, so I doubt it's going to get "fixed" again. And it is highly unlikely that those that HAVE completed it will run it again (unless another server race is offered). I NEVER see LFMs for this or the flag quests.


1b. Are you satisfied that Reaver's Fate is popularly called an "afk quest", and that when new players come to the raid and ask for instructions the typical reply is "hang out and wait to loot"?

The last Reaver run I did, a tank came in, hit "sleep" and stayed there until the "raid" was finished. How could it be fixed? Maybe, make Tor the entrance to it, ala VON 5-6. Finish the first part and it pops a portal that allows you to enter (Only if you've been blooded, of course)? Or make Earth and Fire Elementals pop along with Air? I'm not sure...


2. Are you satisfied that at mid to high level TWF monks have untouchably more damage (and Ki income) than unarmed monks? Had you intended this to happen when designing the class, and are you happy that the unarmed animations get little use?

Maybe if they made handwraps dual wielding?


2b. Are you satisfied that monks virtually never hit enemies with "finisher moves", to the point where most players don't bother learning them if they're not heals or buffs?

I think this is because of the way Ki was implemented in the first place. Two possible fixes, IMO: Allow the monk to start out with full Ki, using it up then slowly regenerating (meditation makes it generate much quicker) during inactivity; OR lower the Ki degradation penalty (or remove it completely). When was the last time anyone stopped to meditate in quest to regain Ki? Yes, I have a monk.


3. Are you satisfied that a TWF character has more sustainable peak AC than one with a tower shield, even if he has zero levels of monk and ranger?

IMO, I think S&B should have more DR/ against physical attacks than it currently does. If a S&B is giving up an extra attack by carrying a shield, they should have a comparable AC and more DR/- than TWFs.

Some very good questions for the devs, A_D. Its too bad they ignore forum posters (for the most part). I think it's pretty ironic that they even advertise the forums on the load screen. Maybe, you should ask these questions on MMORPG.com or TenTon Hammer? The devs might see them and answer them there.

[Turial]

...
Some very good questions for the devs, A_D. Its too bad they ignore forum posters (for the most part). I think it's pretty ironic that they even advertise the forums on the load screen. Maybe, you should ask these questions on MMORPG.com or TenTon Hammer? The devs might see them and answer them there.

Last Dev comment in response to player questions was 9/9/08 by Eladrin..he revealed the PrE for the fighters and paladins. Nothing since. Its sad that there are so many questions and so few answers.

[Borror0]

How could it be fixed? Maybe, make Tor the entrance to it, ala VON 5-6. Finish the first part and it pops a portal that allows you to enter (Only if you've been blooded, of course)?

That wouldn't 'fix it', just make it longer.

EDIT:

Its sad that there are so many questions and so few answers.
Well said. I wish Eladrin would sign up for a Q&A session with me or AD. I think it would serve both the Developer team and the players in giving feedback.

[Raiderone]

You think that is good damage?! A monk can do more damage per swing than this!

That's very, very low DPS. Sorry to sound rude, or to burst your bubble, but that is not good damage. In fact, a TWF Dex-based build will out-DPS you.

Oh Really. My 16th lvl tank does 1d10 plus 20 damage per swing (Crit 20% of the time). 2d6 Holy plus 1d6 Good Burst plus 3d6 Crit. 16 BAB. +32 to hit (with tower shield).

My 16th lvl Str based Monk does 2d8 plus 13 per punch/kick (Crit 10% of the time).
2d6 Holy. 16 BAB +30 to hit.

TWF STR or DEX based should out DPS me. But TWF has a decreased bonus to hit
and not everybody has all Raid Items on there toons for a HIGH AC TWF.
But I imagine my HP are higher. Not everything is greener on the other side...
PLaying a TWF Dex based lvl9 Ranger now...will see at higher levels...

[Borror0]

I play a S&B fighter and she's high DPS and high HP with what I feel is a good AC(upper 40's). I know my tank does some high DPS cause i've seen plenty of ranger based TWF shroud groups that couldn't keep up to her. And my tank is a 28 point build.


That is incorrect- S&B does not have high DPS, especially not if you're a fighter.
1)Maybe your S&B fighter doesn't have high DPS, but mine does. Believe what you want.

TWF STR or DEX based should out DPS me.
Thank you for contradicting yourself and admitting you were wrong.

But TWF has a decreased bonus to hit
-2? You mean the same penalty as your Tower Shield?

and not everybody has all Raid Items on there toons for a HIGH AC TWF.
High AC is as gear dependant for a TWF than a S&B.

[Turial]

.....
Well said. I wish Eladrin would sign up for a Q&A session with me or AD. I think it would serve both the Developer team and the players in giving feedback.

I don't think they would enjoy the or be able to answer even a fraction of your questions due to the "vast and mysterious" policy.

Since they posted that information was going to 3rd party sites there has been a literal curtail between the devs and the players. I salute them for what they have told us but the "vast and mysterious" policy is a poor idea at best. The forums are a literal dead zone for 2 days out of the work week and threads boil down to the same ideas and talk over and over again. There will come an exodus of some sort soon.

[Raiderone]

Thank you for contradicting yourself and admitting you were wrong.

-2? You mean the same penalty as your Tower Shield?

High AC is as gear dependant for a TWF than a S&B.

Your Welcome.

Yes. TWF with two similar weapon bonuses can out DPS a S&B.

TWF is more gear dependent than S&B. Not everybody has a Chattering Ring or
Icy Rainment or +8 AC Bracers. PLus you mentioned Combat Expertise...
decreases your to hit by 5. Add in TWF and your decrease to hit is 7 (like a tower shield).

I always notice the difference when quests go from Normal to Elite. Then TWF's
start to fall off.

[Borror0]

TWF is more gear dependent than S&B. Not everybody has a Chattering Ring or Icy Rainment or +8 AC Bracers.
Chattering Ring: S&B needs it as much.
Icy Rainment: Well, you do need a mithril FP.
Bracers: +7 Bracers are quite easy to find. Besides, you need a Mith TS and Chaosgarde...

Try harder.

PLus you mentioned Combat Expertise... decreases your to hit by 5. Add in TWF and your decrease to hit is 7 (like a tower shield).
Yes. That's what I said. The to-hit is the same, unlike what you pretended previously!

I always notice the difference when quests go from Normal to Elite. Then TWF's
start to fall off.
This is silly. TWF perform better on Elite because they have more AC, do more DPS, kill faster with Vorpal/WoP and are more likely to have Evasion.

In fact, on Elite, the game is more DPS-centric.

[Turial]

....
In fact, on Elite, the game is more Con drain/vorpal-centric and DPS-centric on red named.

Just a small correction. :)

[Raiderone]

[QUOTE=Borror0;1865640]I just meant to say it didn't matter much, in the end.



Ok, right. He doesn't. Want to go Str-based TWF? Let's have some fun!

A Str-based ranger can have:
10 Base
+7 Dexterity
+9 Armor (with Stone of Change ritual - becomes 10 if you get 8 AC bracer)
+2 Tempest
+1 Two-Weapon Defense
+8 Dodge (Icy Rainment, Chattering Ring, Dodge feat)
+4 Insight
+5 Deflection
46 unbuffed AC (51 with Combat Expertise)
+5 Barkskin
+1 Dodge (Haste)
+4 Shield (Shield wand)
56 AC self-buffed (61 with Combat Expertise)
+3 Favored Defense
59 AC vs favored enemies (64 with Combat Exertise)

Just wondering what type of Armor? Bracers? Where does the +4 Insight come from or what item or feat or enhancement?

I know my Str based TWD ranger can get +6 Dex. I stayed at 22 Dex since
Mithrail Chain has a Max Dex of 6. Daggerstooth Belt would increase to +8 Max Dex.

[Angelus_dead]

I don't think they would enjoy the or be able to answer even a fraction of your questions due to the "vast and mysterious" policy.
That's true. Most of the questions I asked here probably have no answer they would like to give in public.

If they say "Yes I'm satisfied", then they make themselves look foolish and out-of-touch with the players who are not satisfied with that situation.
If they say "No I don't like it", then they make themselves look unwilling or unable to fix things they know are wrong.

The only positive-publicity answer they can give is "No, which I why I made changes A, B, and C which you'll find in the next patch". And of course, they could only say that if it were actually true.

For another reason they'd want to stay away from Q&As, look at this dev post (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?&postid=1809310#post1809310) in a Black Abbot thread. I made a comment about Mantle of Invulnerability, and a developer tried to jump in with a helpful hint for players to counteract that buff. But he was wrong about how it worked, making the devs not only look bad in general, but also creating a specific demonstration that they haven't spent much energy testing if the Abbot raid is working right.

[Laith]

Just wondering what type of Armor? Bracers? Where does the +4 Insight come from or what item or feat or enhancement?

I know my Str based TWD ranger can get +6 Dex. I stayed at 22 Dex since
Mithrail Chain has a Max Dex of 6. Daggerstooth Belt would increase to +8 Max Dex.this isn't really the thread for build advice...

[Turial]

I just meant to say it didn't matter much, in the end.



Ok, right. He doesn't. Want to go Str-based TWF? Let's have some fun!

A Str-based ranger can have:
10 Base
+7 Dexterity
+9 Armor (with Stone of Change ritual - becomes 10 if you get 8 AC bracer)
+2 Tempest
+1 Two-Weapon Defense
+8 Dodge (Icy Rainment, Chattering Ring, Dodge feat)
+4 Insight
+5 Deflection
46 unbuffed AC (51 with Combat Expertise)
+5 Barkskin
+1 Dodge (Haste)
+4 Shield (Shield wand)
56 AC self-buffed (61 with Combat Expertise)
+3 Favored Defense
59 AC vs favored enemies (64 with Combat Exertise)

Just wondering what type of Armor? Bracers? Where does the +4 Insight come from or what item or feat or enhancement?

I know my Str based TWD ranger can get +6 Dex. I stayed at 22 Dex since
Mithrail Chain has a Max Dex of 6. Daggerstooth Belt would increase to +8 Max Dex.

+8 Armored bracers with Armor ritual on the rainments would give you +9 AC, Borror0 is mistaken on the rest of his armor statement unless there is a +2 AC ritual for robes. +4 Insight AC comes from a tier 3 shroud weapon if you choose AC over damage.

[Turial]

...
The only positive-publicity answer they can give is "No, which I why I made changes A, B, and C which you'll find in the next patch". And of course, they could only say that if it were actually true.

Or "the patch didn't work like we thought it would," we have seen a few of those.

[Borror0]

Just wondering what type of Armor? Bracers? Where does the +4 Insight come from or what item or feat or enhancement?
Amor: Yup, bracers.
Insight: Heighten Awareness IV, from Shroud crafting. It's on weapons. Both S&B and TWF requires it.

EDIT: Turial, can you edit post 183?

[Turial]

Amor: Yup, bracers.
Insight: Heighten Awareness IV, from Shroud crafting. It's on weapons. Both S&B and TWF requires it.

EDIT: Turial, can you edit post 183?

Better?

Where are you getting 9 and 10?
7+1 =8 =/=19 8+1=9=/=10

[Borror0]

Where are you getting 9 and 10?
7+1 =8 =/=19 8+1=9=/=10

D'oh... armor is KDS

[Turial]

D'oh... armor is KDS

Silly Borror0 only my poor fighter can wear both.

[salmag]

That wouldn't 'fix it', just make it longer.


True, but it would at least make the fighter DO something besides "sleep."

[Borror0]

True, but it would at least make the fighter DO something besides "sleep."

The fighter would sleep, just as much. But, he would have to gain his right to sleep by wasting his time in a previous quest.

That is not any better, not more fun, not better design... just longer.

[salmag]

The fighter would sleep, just as much. But, he would have to gain his right to sleep by wasting his time in a previous quest.

That is not any better, not more fun, not better design... just longer.

So I guess there really is NO fix for it. :(

[Borror0]

So I guess there really is NO fix for it. :(

Oh, there are, but as many have stated I doubt it is worth the time they will have to put in it.

[Turial]

I just meant to say it didn't matter much, in the end.



Ok, right. He doesn't. Want to go Str-based TWF? Let's have some fun!

A Str-based ranger can have:
10 Base
+7 Dexterity
+8 Armor (with Stone of Change ritual - becomes 9 if you get 8 AC bracer)
+2 Tempest
+1 Two-Weapon Defense
+8 Dodge (Icy Rainment, Chattering Ring, Dodge feat)
+4 Insight
+5 Deflection
46 unbuffed AC (51 with Combat Expertise)
+5 Barkskin
+1 Dodge (Haste)
+4 Shield (Shield wand)
56 AC self-buffed (61 with Combat Expertise)
+3 Favored Defense
59 AC vs favored enemies (64 with Combat Exertise)


I wonder how dwarven defender may change this.

[Angelus_dead]

1. Are you satisfied with the Black Abbot raid difficulty?
1b. Are you satisfied that Reaver's Fate is popularly called an "afk quest", and that when new players come to the raid and ask for instructions the typical reply is "hang out and wait to loot"?
2. Are you satisfied that at mid to high level TWF monks have untouchably more damage (and Ki income) than unarmed monks?
2b. Are you satisfied that monks virtually never hit enemies with "finisher moves", to the point where most players don't bother learning them if they're not heals or buffs?
3. Are you satisfied that a TWF character has more sustainable peak AC than one with a tower shield, even if he has zero levels of monk and ranger?
Based on the reply in this post (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1878786&postcount=94), we can see the developers were NOT satisfied on question #2. I wonder if they're planning to do something about any of those other 4 problems.

[moorewr]

Bump!

In another thread you mentioned that three of your five questions had been addressed in some way in Mod 8. Can I get you to comment on what was done?

[Ringos]

Uh, I think they changed the Reaver! :)

[moorewr]

Uh, I think they changed the Reaver! :)

Heh. Sorry for my lazy post -- I wasn't so much asking WHAT was done but what A_D thinks of what was done.

[Issip]

I would add mine but everyone always laughs at me...

3c. Are you satisfied that ranged combat is seen as weak by 99.9% of the player base to the point where almost no one will carry a bow for dealing with the out of reach crystals in the shroud and other locations?

3d. Are you satisfied that some rogues, rangers and monks look different than the other ones, or would you prefer everyone to wear the exact same outfit? If you would prefer everyone wear the exact same thing then please put the most overpowered outfit in the game as a very common drop in an easy to get subterraine chest. Oh, wait, you did. It's a dex toon pajama party - raiments for everyone!!!

Oh, and if you're wondering if your fighter with the +5 mith FP and +5 mithral TS has as much AC as the monk/rogue/ranger standing there in his PJ's don't bother thinking about it - you can't possibly have as much AC as they do.

Hell, my fighter may be wearing those PJ's soon - I can get equal AC in them while freeing up ~24 action points blown on armor and shield mastery, and have no armor penalty. The biggest drawback is having to give up the bracer slot for armor bracers.

[Turial]

3d. Are you satisfied that some rogues, rangers and monks look different than the other ones, or would you prefer everyone to wear the exact same outfit? If you would prefer everyone wear the exact same thing then please put the most overpowered outfit in the game as a very common drop in an easy to get subterraine chest. Oh, wait, you did. It's a dex toon pajama party - raiments for everyone!!!

Oh, and if you're wondering if your fighter with the +5 mith FP and +5 mithral TS has as much AC as the monk/rogue/ranger standing there in his PJ's don't bother thinking about it - you can't possibly have as much AC as they do.

Hell, my fighter may be wearing those PJ's soon - I can get equal AC in them while freeing up ~24 action points blown on armor and shield mastery, and have no armor penalty. The biggest drawback is having to give up the bracer slot for armor bracers.

Its sad, every time I get tempted to build an Intimitank I find myself making a rogue acrobat with a few levels of monk.

[Borror0]

Its sad, every time I get tempted to build an Intimitank I find myself making a rogue acrobat with a few levels of monk.
Could be worse. Some people just get turned off by the grind.

PS: You got mail.

[Turial]

Could be worse. Some people just get turned off by the grind.

PS: You got mail.

I never make it past level 4. My ranger is much more fun to play for me.

[Angelus_dead]

In another thread you mentioned that three of your five questions had been addressed in some way in Mod 8. Can I get you to comment on what was done?
Huh, oh, what changed in module 8?

1. Reaver raid was made harder, so it's more difficult for just 2-3 people to do everything while the rest falls asleep.

2. Monks are allowed to TWF with unarmed attacks, increasing the DPS of unarmed compared to TWF kama (at least in situations where you don't need specific metals against DR)

3. Dragontouched armor was added which improves AC of fullplate characters (or at least enables them to remove dex items), and which also provides some other benefits (not needing to farm Titan...). But high AC dex/monk types cannot benefit from Dragontouched robes, unless they accept the AC drop from losing Icy Rainments.

Item #3 in particular is a marginal change. You wouldn't call it a "fix", but it is a "change".

[ThrasherGT]

Huh, oh, what changed in module 8?

1. Reaver raid was made harder, so it's more difficult for just 2-3 people to do everything while the rest falls asleep.

2. Monks are allowed to TWF with unarmed attacks, increasing the DPS of unarmed compared to TWF kama (at least in situations where you don't need specific metals against DR)

3. Dragontouched armor was added which improves AC of fullplate characters (or at least enables them to remove dex items), and which also provides some other benefits (not needing to farm Titan...). But high AC dex/monk types cannot benefit from Dragontouched robes, unless they accept the AC drop from losing Icy Rainments.

Item #3 in particular is a marginal change. You wouldn't call it a "fix", but it is a "change".

*See red portion

Except for those who do not have the chattering ring. Those builds can get an additional +1 armor with the robes (or outfit) and the +3 dodge bonus. And 2 other neat effects of their choice!

[Gennerik]

*See red portion

Except for those who do not have the chattering ring. Those builds can get an additional +1 armor with the robes (or outfit) and the +3 dodge bonus. And 2 other neat effects of their choice!

And those of us that still wear armor and have evasion still get shafted because we're stuck wearing leather, which has the lowest AC of the light armors (made worse by the high Dexterity allowed, which most probably don't have) except for padded (Is that even in the game?). That gives evasion characters a -3 AC if they have the Chattering Ring already, or break even at the very best.

So to those three characters that actually benefited from the poor light armor choice, congratulations. The rest of us will say thanks for trying, but not thanks. (There are probably more than three people that are excited to see Leather Armor, but I'm being bitter right now).

[ThrasherGT]

And those of us that still wear armor and have evasion still get shafted because we're stuck wearing leather, which has the lowest AC of the light armors (made worse by the high Dexterity allowed, which most probably don't have) except for padded (Is that even in the game?). That gives evasion characters a -3 AC if they have the Chattering Ring already, or break even at the very best.

So to those three characters that actually benefited from the poor light armor choice, congratulations. The rest of us will say thanks for trying, but not thanks. (There are probably more than three people that are excited to see Leather Armor, but I'm being bitter right now).

In the case that You break even with the +3 dodge on the leather, You still get 2 other slots to do with as You will.

I consider that an upgrade.........

[bobbryan2]

In the case that You break even with the +3 dodge on the leather, You still get 2 other slots to do with as You will.

I consider that an upgrade.........

The dodge still doesn't stack with the chattering ring...

You can't add the +3 dodge bonus to max possible AC equations, since it's assumed to already be on the character.

[ThrasherGT]

The dodge still doesn't stack with the chattering ring...

You can't add the +3 dodge bonus to max possible AC equations, since it's assumed to already be on the character.

Except for the poor souls who never managed to pull one. Max AC is NOT the norm for the Majority of Players. The new armors/ robes ARE an UPGRADE for many, many people.........

[ThrasherGT]

The dodge still doesn't stack with the chattering ring...

You can't add the +3 dodge bonus to max possible AC equations, since it's assumed to already be on the character.

And I said "In the case that You break even.......etc."

So Your point is moot.

[Dracolich]

Dont forget not everyone farmed the bloody hell out of GOP and got an Icy Rainments. Some of us farmed for it and still have not gotten any. So something is better then nothing.

[Desteria]

Dont forget not everyone farmed the bloody hell out of GOP and got an Icy Rainments. Some of us farmed for it and still have not gotten any. So something is better then nothing.

yes but apprently they are dirt common in the subbterian ginat encounter now. havent run ti yet my self but had a lot of guildies see 1 or mroe drop almost every chest on the runs they have bene doing.

[Souless]

And those of us that still wear armor and have evasion still get shafted because we're stuck wearing leather, which has the lowest AC of the light armors (made worse by the high Dexterity allowed, which most probably don't have) except for padded (Is that even in the game?). That gives evasion characters a -3 AC if they have the Chattering Ring already, or break even at the very best.

So to those three characters that actually benefited from the poor light armor choice, congratulations. The rest of us will say thanks for trying, but not thanks. (There are probably more than three people that are excited to see Leather Armor, but I'm being bitter right now).

As an evasion build fighter i have to agree.....I'm waiting for new armors. There just isn't enough avantage to switch to the RANDOM GRIND of building armor just to stay even with BoD.....I have to say to the dev's it isn't even a good effort (and my toons do have the dex to utilize full benifit from the leather).

I personally think the Monk class needs an overhaul (already) listen to ppl in raids say OMG we have to drag another monk through this quest.....

I have several fixes to suggest here:

1. Add more/better armor choices for evasion builds
2. let monks keep the Ki the generate until they actually use it. ie there is just no time during combat to actually utilize several (what i cosider to be clicky or complex) finishing moves. So once the ki bar is full it should stay so until used.
3. Let monks chose an enhancement at say lvl 10-12 to stay centered with other weapons (ie long bow) how many of you have witnessed the nija using a lb, or POLE ARM! for that matter...the fact that the monk MUST use the "crapy" weapons in the game is just a crime.
4. Finally take at least some of the randomness out of the armor crafting let the % chance to get something u haven't already had applied to the suit increase.....so i can stop farming eldrich stones to get my +5 resistance.....the random sucks...made worse by the fact that ur odds don't improve from 1 pull to the next.

[weyoun]

Angelus I so enjoy reading your posts. Keep up the good work.

[Angelus_dead]

Of the 5 problems pointed out in the first post, 3 of them have had (attempted) fixes released or announced. Funny to notice that the ones at the end of the list are the elements that haven't been addressed yet.

1. Black Abbot raid. Root of the problem (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=1270962), becomes broken (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=1397038#post1397038), problem noticed (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=1399858#post1399858), much-later problem summary (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=161293), fix announced (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=1998390#post1998390) (hopefully for the last time).

1b. Stormreaver raid. Original raid description (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=112081) (soloability mentioned even then), problem called out (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=1270962), release notes (http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Release_Notes_Module_8_Official) don't mention it, attemped fix (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=162338&highlight=reaver) noticed (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=162510&highlight=reaver).

2. Monk TWF vs unarmed. Problem noticed (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=1716429#post1716429), fix announced (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=1876192#post1876192) and noticed (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=159730), and the release notes (http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Release_Notes_Module_8_Official) say nothing.

2b. Monk offensive finishers. Still not fixed; there had been a change to buff the save DCs prior to this thread, but save DCs weren't the reason they don't work. ("Boss Immunity" is a more accurate diagnosis)

3. Armored AC vs unarmored. Still not fixed, although Dragontouched Armor (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=162707) helped slightly.