Can we get a Developer to comment on Spot?

[parvo]

Many of us believe Spot skill was recently changed so that only Rogues could Spot traps over DC 20 (Danger Sense). Was this indeed a change? Why? And will it be changed back? A lot of high Spot non-rogue characters are left wondering if they have wasted skill points.

[Griphon]

*Edit - cleared all information since there is another thread with 'its always been this way' answer.

[manfredshw]

yes, pls make it clear!

How this "always been this way" come from, how you prove this.
And what about barb critical 2 enhancement, why reduce the ac so much now.
Is this always been this way?

ok, if always been this way, so you gonna change the skill decription for us to make it clear!

[Drinkin]

Many of us believe Spot skill was recently changed so that only Rogues could Spot traps over DC 20 (Danger Sense). Was this indeed a change? Why? And will it be changed back?
I know that the search skill has been that way since I can remember and I started playing August 06. I assume the it was always the same or suppose to be the same for spot.


A lot of high Spot non-rogue characters are left wondering if they have wasted skill points.

No they have not wasted their spot skill points. I always sink as much in to spot and listen as I can spare. It comes in quite handy to see/hear your enemies while they're hiding/invisible.

[Bekki]

As per the PHB

Onlyba rogue may spot traps magical or otherwise
With a DC in excess of DC 20

This is and has ever been the case.

The only exception that I know of to this
Would be the Clerics use of a "Find Traps" spell.

As the name indicates;

This allows a cleric to find traps as a rogue
Of the same level of the cleric.

Even with this being the case, havng a high spot
Skill is NOT a waste of points as this will also allow
You to spot hidden enemies as well.

So it is not a total waste of points.

Hope this helps,

Bekki

[Gennerik]

Even with this being the case, havng a high spot
Skill is NOT a waste of points as this will also allow
You to spot hidden enemies as well.

So it is not a total waste of points.

Hope this helps,

Bekki

Speaking of Spot, why do I still only see a faint outline of a creature that I have a high enough Spot to see? It's not like they are invisible (which is what the current system kind of says to me). In reality, if you spot someone, you see them moving along in the shadows trying to be sneaky, not just some vague outline that checks to see if you're paying attention as well. If your Spot skill is higher than their Hide, then you should see them, plain as day. Below that, then they should be just a vague outline until you get about 5 below their Hide, at which point you shouldn't see them at all.

Ok, back to traps, and how Spot is hit or miss on whether it works (or requires a Cleric, or a Cleric with Find Traps).

[Kaldaka]

OK, I think I found some useful information for you guys:

I have found that the cleric's Find Traps spell raises the Search skill by 1 for every two caster levels (see http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Spell:Find_Traps) ... It has nothing to do with Spot ... UMD the scroll and you will see your search skill increase by 1 (scroll level 3/2=1.5 rounded down to 1). Does your spot skill change? If not, then why should you be able to Spot traps now? Where in the description does it say you can now spot a trap ... the description specifically says Search.

Regarding rogues and trapfinding: please read the following: http://compendium.ddo.com/index.php/Feat:Trapfinding
... doesn't even mention anything about the Cleric spell ... hmmm ... And read the very first sentence from this: http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Class:Rogue

That sounds pretty definitive to me ...


All in all, spot is an extremely useful skill ... seeing invisible things, noting secret doors, getting extra DM text/voice, etc. But regarding traps, I don't think the argument that difficult traps can be spotted by non-rogues. Think about it this way, Spotting traps isn't really all that important if you can't disable them. You're gonna have to run through them anyways if you ain't got a rogue ...

[Impaqt]

yes, pls make it clear!

How this "always been this way" come from, how you prove this.
Your the one claiming its changed.. Its up to you to Prove that it changed.

ok, if always been this way, so you gonna change the skill decription for us to make it clear!

It didnt change int he other thread, and it hasnt changed now.

[Jay203]

ionno... is the trap in spiral ramp-well in Ghola-Fan above 20 in DC?
'cause i can spot that trap(box) with my sniper o_O

[WeaselKing]

Speaking of Spot, why do I still only see a faint outline of a creature that I have a high enough Spot to see? It's not like they are invisible (which is what the current system kind of says to me). In reality, if you spot someone, you see them moving along in the shadows trying to be sneaky, not just some vague outline that checks to see if you're paying attention as well. If your Spot skill is higher than their Hide, then you should see them, plain as day. Below that, then they should be just a vague outline until you get about 5 below their Hide, at which point you shouldn't see them at all.

Ok, back to traps, and how Spot is hit or miss on whether it works (or requires a Cleric, or a Cleric with Find Traps).

I believe it is this way so that you know that your other party members might not be able to see him and you'll know to give them a warning.

[parvo]

It didnt change int he other thread, and it hasnt changed now.

Do you have a high Spot non-Rogue character?

[Lewcipher]

Do you have a high Spot non-Rogue character?

I do, and secret doors : yes, traps above DC 20 no.

[Raithe]

ionno... is the trap in spiral ramp-well in Ghola-Fan above 20 in DC?
'cause i can spot that trap(box) with my sniper o_O

Curious about what I'd find, I went and tested the spot DC of that trap box. It was 20 on normal and 30 on elite (probably 25 on hard).

I bet any ranger who doesn't have a level of rogue can't spot it on hard or elite.

[Impaqt]

Do you have a high Spot non-Rogue character?

Yes, My original Cleric.. Very high Wisdom, I put points into Spot and Wore a Blindness ward googles of Spot +10 until I Made my shroud Item. I usually ran around with a spot in the low to mid 30's

[Raithe]

Curious about what I'd find, I went and tested the spot DC of that trap box. It was 20 on normal and 30 on elite (probably 25 on hard).

I bet any ranger who doesn't have a level of rogue can't spot it on hard or elite.

And here is my ranger14/fighter2 with a 55 self-buffed spot standing in front of the trap box in Ghola Fan on hard. Notice that there is no danger notification in either the top middle or top right.

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x189/aofi7/Druin-Ghola-Fan.jpg

[parvo]

Curious about what I'd find, I went and tested the spot DC of that trap box. It was 20 on normal and 30 on elite (probably 25 on hard).

I bet any ranger who doesn't have a level of rogue can't spot it on hard or elite.

I'm fairly certain this is the way it works now. I'm not certain it's allways been that way. Some well respected long-term players have told me their high spot/non-rogue characters could spot danger in high level quests (L 12-13) on elite.

[Impaqt]

I'm fairly certain this is the way it works now. I'm not certain it's allways been that way. Some well respected long-term players have told me their high spot/non-rogue characters could spot danger in high level quests (L 12-13) on elite.

Those same players probobly can still spot some straps on ELite.. I know my cleric still gets sense on some of the traps in the Wizard King all the way up to Elite.

Being an Elite quest does NOT mean all the DC's are above 20.

[Uska]

spot is still good for spotting foes.

[redoubt]

This explains why my high spot barbarian is not longer "sensing danger". I still see hidden bad guys pretty good, but not sensing danger in the higher level quests is a bummer. :mad:

[parvo]

This explains why my high spot barbarian is not longer "sensing danger". I still see hidden bad guys pretty good, but not sensing danger in the higher level quests is a bummer. :mad:

Are you running higher level quests or increased difficulty? It sounds as if you've lost the ability to Spot danger in areas where you once could. Is that the case? How certain are you?

[parvo]

I'd still like a Dev comment on this one. We're building characters here. Especially skill points that can't be re-specified, we deserve an answer on whether the change is a bug, intentional or what.

Again, from the User Guide based on original code:

"Trapfinding Feat: Defensive - Traps. Rogues can use Search skill to locate traps when the trap has a Difficulty Class higher than 20. Recieved level 1."

The original Rogue Trapfinding Feat had nothing to do with Spot.

[SqtYork]

for ranged based attacks low spot / listen means you have to get that much closer before you can hit them. I try to get at least a 5 - 10 spot so I can see / hit stuff at range.

[Rameses]

Many of us believe Spot skill was recently changed so that only Rogues could Spot traps over DC 20 (Danger Sense). Was this indeed a change? Why? And will it be changed back? A lot of high Spot non-rogue characters are left wondering if they have wasted skill points.
Parvo,
I think you owe it yourself and the community to try Perma-zerg before you get out.

Other than that looking at my Rogue's feats there is a little Rogue Feat that is a granted feat called:
Trapfinding: Passive: A Rogue can find and disable difficult traps.

My guess that is the DDO translation of this PnP ruling on Trap Finding

Trapfinding ( http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm)
Rogues (and only rogues) can use the Search skill to locate traps when the task has a Difficulty Class higher than 20.

Finding a nonmagical trap has a DC of at least 20, or higher if it is well hidden. Finding a magic trap has a DC of 25 + the level of the spell used to create it.

Rogues (and only rogues) can use the Disable Device skill to disarm magic traps. A magic trap generally has a DC of 25 + the level of the spell used to create it.

A rogue who beats a trap’s DC by 10 or more with a Disable Device check can study a trap, figure out how it works, and bypass it (with her party) without disarming it.

Regarding Trap DC's and Search; PnP has this ( http://www.d20srd.org/srd/traps.htm#mechanicalTraps) to say about it...


Mechanical Traps
Dungeons are frequently equipped with deadly mechanical (nonmagical) traps. A trap typically is defined by its location and triggering conditions, how hard it is to spot before it goes off, how much damage it deals, and whether or not the heroes receive a saving throw to mitigate its effects. Traps that attack with arrows, sweeping blades, and other types of weaponry make normal attack rolls, with a specific attack bonus dictated by the trap’s design.

Creatures who succeed on a DC 20 Search check detect a simple mechanical trap before it is triggered. (A simple trap is a snare, a trap triggered by a tripwire, or a large trap such as a pit.)

A character with the trapfinding class feature who succeeds on a DC 21 (or higher) Search check detects a well-hidden or complex mechanical trap before it is triggered. Complex traps are denoted by their triggering mechanisms and involve pressure plates, mechanisms linked to doors, changes in weight, disturbances in the air, vibrations, and other sorts of unusual triggers.


Magic Traps
Many spells can be used to create dangerous traps. Unless the spell or item description states otherwise, assume the following to be true.

A successful Search check (DC 25 + spell level) made by a rogue (and only a rogue) detects a magic trap before it goes off. Other characters have no chance to find a magic trap with a Search check.
Magic traps permit a saving throw in order to avoid the effect (DC 10 + spell level × 1.5).
Magic traps may be disarmed by a rogue (and only a rogue) with a successful Disable Device check (DC 25 + spell level).

These are my thoughts and do not represent the thougths of anyone else.
No Halflings were harmed in the making of this post.

I am, Rameses!

and I approve this message.

[parvo]

Parvo,
...Other than that looking at my Rogue's feats there is a little Rogue Feat that is a granted feat called:
Trapfinding: Passive: A Rogue can find and disable difficult traps.

My guess that is the DDO translation of this PnP ruling on Trap Finding


Regarding Trap DC's and Search; PnP has this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/traps.htm#mechanicalTraps) to say about it...





These are my thoughts and do not represent the thougths of anyone else.
No Halflings were harmed in the making of this post.

I am, Rameses!

and I approve this message.

I think you owe yourself and the community a cucumber, aloe, and lavender body wash.

Perhaps you missed this, it's the crux of the issue and shows that the developers changed philosophy on spot. Again, from the User Guide based on original code:

"Trapfinding Feat: Defensive - Traps. Rogues can use Search skill to locate traps when the trap has a Difficulty Class higher than 20. Recieved level 1."

The original DDO Rogue Trapfinding Feat had nothing to do with Spot.

[Nevthial]

Parvo,
I think you owe it yourself and the community to try Perma-zerg before you get out.


OT, but...Perma-Zerg? Scary !! :)

[Opall]

I think you owe yourself and the community a cucumber, aloe, and lavender body wash.

Perhaps you missed this, it's the crux of the issue and shows that the developers changed philosophy on spot. Again, from the User Guide based on original code:

"Trapfinding Feat: Defensive - Traps. Rogues can use Search skill to locate traps when the trap has a Difficulty Class higher than 20. Recieved level 1."

The original DDO Rogue Trapfinding Feat had nothing to do with Spot.


Just a Question, and totally off topic:
What is he supose to do with the cucumber:)

[Ringos]

I'd still like a Dev comment on this one. We're building characters here. Especially skill points that can't be re-specified, we deserve an answer on whether the change is a bug, intentional or what.

Agreed. If it IS intentional, the Spot description (when hovering over the skill) needs to specify this.

[Gandalfs_Ghost]

I think you owe yourself and the community a cucumber, aloe, and lavender body wash.

Perhaps you missed this, it's the crux of the issue and shows that the developers changed philosophy on spot. Again, from the User Guide based on original code:

"Trapfinding Feat: Defensive - Traps. Rogues can use Search skill to locate traps when the trap has a Difficulty Class higher than 20. Recieved level 1."

The original DDO Rogue Trapfinding Feat had nothing to do with Spot.


Or it did and just wasnt documented.
Spot has no function in pnp for finding traps, its a guessing game based on (hopefully) hints offered by the DM.
In this game that mechanic would not work very well, heck people hardly wait for rogues to do their trapsmithing as it is, let alone if they had to go through every quest searching every 10 feet guessing at trap locations.
So why not have spot restricted the same way as search in its ddo implementation?
What sense would it make to sense danger from a trap one cannot possibly find?
It is unfortuante that the documentation isnt clear on this but it is also apparent that this is the way it functions at the moment, maybe always has, comments from long-time well-respected players aside.
Remeber the cha/diplo chest controversy?
It works I swear, have the sorc open it!
No it doesnt, its a waste of time!
Yes it does!
Even the Devs said it doesnt!
Bah, what do they know!
etc

one year later, standing at a chest:
It works I swear!
No it doesnt!
Yes it does!
Even the Devs said it doesnt! A Year ago!
Bah, what do they know!
etc

[parvo]

Still looking for an answer.

[parvo]

Even still looking for an answer

[Aspenor]

Even still looking for an answer

The answer is that it always worked the way it does, currently, and that it is working as intended.

No non-rogue can spot a trap over 20 DC.

Any non-rogue can spot an enemy with a hide skill score of greater than 20.

Any non-rogue can spot a secret door.

Your skill points aren't wasted, they just don't work the way you wish they did.

[arcticwolf666]

The answer is that it always worked the way it does, currently, and that it is working as intended.

No non-rogue can spot a trap over 20 DC.

Any non-rogue can spot an enemy with a hide skill score of greater than 20.

Any non-rogue can spot a secret door.

Your skill points aren't wasted, they just don't work the way you wish they did.


Indeed, rogues are the only class trained to find traps so they know what to look for. An average citizen (fighter, barbarian, etc.) are not trained so spot goes for hidden enemies, secret doors etc.

Now I do believe Rangers are trained in the 6th sense of danger, so in theory, spot should notify them of danger but as far as finding traps, maybe they cannot but they know danger is near.... IDK, at work atm so I cannot look it up. Anyone else clarify?

[parvo]

The answer is that it always worked the way it does, currently, and that it is working as intended.

No non-rogue can spot a trap over 20 DC.

Any non-rogue can spot an enemy with a hide skill score of greater than 20.

Any non-rogue can spot a secret door.

Your skill points aren't wasted, they just don't work the way you wish they did.

What makes you think this is the way it's allways been?

[manfredshw]

I am waiting for the answers, too.

[negative]

While I'd love to see a Dev answer on this, I still say it's never changed. The first time I really noticed this feature was when the Wishperdoom quest was released, and that was many Mod's ago.