Request for some balancing

[The_Phenx]

Simple request for a tough debate.

Can we re-balance the action point cost for fighters armor mastery and shield mastery feats.

Currently they take

2 +1 ac
4 +1 additional
6 +1 additional

So that is 12 Action points for 3 ac add to the dex bonus on your armor
And 12 additional AP to allow 3 more to the dex bonus on your shield.

24 total action points.

Compared to the paltry 4 action points that tempest takes.
for +2 ac and 10% alacrity.

Just doesn't seem to equal out.

1 pt
2 pt
3 pt

Would seem to be more in line with how it should be compared to the other enhancement lines. This would also help a TON now that you are releasing fighter tactical enhancements.

Can I get a yes a no or a we are working on it?

Thanks devs.

[frederjoe1]

Did you take into account the 3 different feats that a Tempest build must take in order to get that enhancement?

Not trying to get on you because I do not know fighter enhancement lines. What feats does a fighter need to take to get those enhancements?

Not sure there is really a balancing issue between these two lines.

My 2cp

[The_Phenx]

I did take that into consideration, Dodge mobility and SA... Dodge is +1 ac anyway, mobility is useless, SA is a good feat.. so its not like you arent benefitting from them.

No feat requirements for fighters armor mastery, but 12 action points for 3 ac is a bit steep... considering a 1 level monk splash can get a higher ac in pajamas than a fighter using +5 mithral full plate and carrying a +5 mithril tower shield with all the enhancement lines.

AC is very broke at the moment.

[Nikorr123]

Exactly - Tempest is 4 points PLUS 3 feats

All the armor enhancements(mentioned above) is a paltry 24 AP

[Gennerik]

I think the entire enhancement cost breakdown is too rigid as it is. It seems that someone decided that all costs have to increase as things go on, which seventy limits the flexibility of the system anyway. I think the Fighter AC lines are a little too expensive but there really isn't a middle ground route like there needs to be (like 2,2,2).

[Uproar]

Simple request for a tough debate.

Can we re-balance the action point cost for fighters armor mastery and shield mastery feats.

Currently they take

2 +1 ac
4 +1 additional
6 +1 additional

So that is 12 Action points for 3 ac add to the dex bonus on your armor
And 12 additional AP to allow 3 more to the dex bonus on your shield.

24 total action points.

Compared to the paltry 4 action points that tempest takes.
for +2 ac and 10% alacrity.

Just doesn't seem to equal out.

1 pt
2 pt
3 pt

Would seem to be more in line with how it should be compared to the other enhancement lines. This would also help a TON now that you are releasing fighter tactical enhancements.

Can I get a yes a no or a we are working on it?

Thanks devs.

IMO it basically it comes down to this, why even offer enhancement that I doubt very many people ever take?

Heck you could also offer a +10 AC enhancement for a cost of 50APs, but why as few would bother.

None of my many fighter builds actually get to take more then 3 picks of these two enhancement lines (I think on one character I took two levels of each). It's just too many points to spend on a relatively minor (although obviously nice to have) benefit. Too many other things are must haves / are required to waste 24 points on these.

[The_Phenx]

Exactly - Tempest is 4 points PLUS 3 feats

All the armor enhancements(mentioned above) is a paltry 24 AP

Paltry? I dont consider 33% of all your action points earned for 6 ac bonus paltry.

Especially when you could splash 1 level of monk.. get the 6 ac and 2 free feats.

Even 2 3 4 point cost would be better than what we have now.

[The_Phenx]

IMO it basically it comes down to this, why even offer enhancement that I doubt very many people ever take?

Heck you could also offer a +10 AC enhancement for a cost of 50APs, but why as few would bother.

None of my many fighter builds actually get to take more then 3 picks of these two enhancement lines (I think on one character I took two levels of each). It's just too many points to spend on a relatively minor (although obviously nice to have) benefit. Too many other things are must haves / are required to waste 24 points on these.

I took it... unfortunately they are the ONLY way to get a decent ac on a fighter. You have spend all of the points and get combat expertise and lose 5 th and have no power attack to even come close to approaching what monks and rangers are capable of.

Its terribly unblaanced at the moment.

[frederjoe1]

Paltry? I dont consider 33% of all your action points earned for 6 ac bonus paltry.

Especially when you could splash 1 level of monk.. get the 6 ac and 2 free feats.

Even 2 3 4 point cost would be better than what we have now.

Isn't this kinda the whole point of multiclassing...finding ways to creat different synergies between two seperate classes and hopefully coming up with something better than each by themselves?

Is there something somewhere that requires that a pureclass be better at something than a multiclass...

I am not trying to get your fur up, I am trying to wrap my head around the problem here.

[krud]

I would rather see them bring back the fighter dodge enhancement.

[Angelus_dead]

Compared to the paltry 4 action points that tempest takes.
for +2 ac and 10% alacrity.
The balance that should be done is to completely delete the AC bonus from Tempest. 10% attack rate is enough reason to want that enhancement, and that removal would also fix the bug of the bonus applying even when not TWF.

[The_Phenx]

I would rather see them bring back the fighter dodge enhancement.

Would be great as well...

[The_Phenx]

Isn't this kinda the whole point of multiclassing...finding ways to creat different synergies between two seperate classes and hopefully coming up with something better than each by themselves?

Is there something somewhere that requires that a pureclass be better at something than a multiclass...

I am not trying to get your fur up, I am trying to wrap my head around the problem here.

Yes and no... it is but I think the extent of the bonuses are way overpowered.

Think of it this way...
You spend 15 years learning to be a fighter.
Then for the fun of it you spend 1 year in a monastary in china.
All the sudden your 20x more powerful than you were?

Everyone knows the monk splash is overpowered.

I'm not asking for a nerf for that.

Just every fighter out there feels the AP cost for the paltry bonus is unfair.

[rimble]

I think they may be fine. Perhaps other classes are more intended to be the 'dextrous' AC types, and Fighters are intended to be the heavy armor real 'tank' types. So having access to 'dextrous' enhancements is an option, but a little costly since it's not their particular idiom. However, they'd then need something to help them excel in their intended area: Fighter Heavy Armor Optimization, +1/2/3 AC in Heavy Armor. Fighter Tower Shield Optimization, +1/2/3 AC with a Tower Shield. Things like that. I dunno, it's really hard to guess what the devs intend the classes to be sometimes.

[frederjoe1]

Yes and no... it is but I think the extent of the bonuses are way overpowered.

Think of it this way...
You spend 15 years learning to be a fighter.
Then for the fun of it you spend 1 year in a monastary in china.
All the sudden your 20x more powerful than you were?

Everyone knows the monk splash is overpowered.

I'm not asking for a nerf for that.

Just every fighter out there feels the AP cost for the paltry bonus is unfair.

I guess looking at it that way it kinda seems a bit overpowered.

[The_Phenx]

There used to be fighter dodge which was along those lines.. it was removed a long time ago because it made fighters ac to high at that point in the game.

Which is now pretty sorry.

Fully twinked out with all the best raid gear and combat expertise on a fighter is lucky to hit 65.. and it costs a LOT to get there.

[Borror0]

Can we re-balance the action point cost for fighters armor mastery and shield mastery feats.

Seems lik you and I are on the same wavelength (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=158720) today.


10% attack rate is enough reason to want that enhancement, and that removal would also fix the bug of the bonus applying even when not TWF.
Agreed.

[The_Phenx]

Seems lik you and I are on the same wavelength (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=158720) today.


Yes we are... although your obviously not really sleepy and put a lot more thought into it. :rolleyes:

[Borror0]

Yes we are... although your obviously not really sleepy and put a lot more thought into it. :rolleyes:

Nah, I'm **** tired. I wanted to elaborate more but gave up on the idea.

[Forceonature]

/agreed

I'd also be happy with 2,2,2 or 2,3,4.

I also think the Dodge feat should be +2 instead of +1. Seems like a feat should be worth more than 5 vials of pure water and some kobold beads...

[The_Phenx]

Seems Like A Feat Should Be Worth More Than 5 Vials Of Pure Water And Some Kobold Beads...

Rofl

[EKKM]

Paltry? I dont consider 33% of all your action points earned for 6 ac bonus paltry.

Especially when you could splash 1 level of monk.. get the 6 ac and 2 free feats.

Even 2 3 4 point cost would be better than what we have now.

Especially since it is really only +3 to AC. The tower sheild enhancments dont stack with the armour enhancements they just allow you to also override the max dex on towershields.

Ie Fighter is full plate, max dex is 1, he has a 18 dex allowing for a total of +4. The fighter also equips a towershield which has a max dex of +2.

Spends 12 AP to raise the max dex of his armour to +4. However, his dex bonus to AC is limited to 2 as he has not yet taken the towershield enhancement. To fully reralize the +4 to AC his dex would provide he needs to spend an additional 6AP on the TS enhancement.

A good fix would be to leave the AP cost the same but have the armour enhancements also apply to tower shields.

And yes, 1 level monk splashes are more broken than critical rage II

[The_Phenx]

Especially since it is really only +3 to AC. The tower sheild enhancments dont stack with the armour enhancements they just allow you to also override the max dex on towershields.

I said I was tired... :) lol... yes your 100% correct... 18 ap to get +3 to ac when using armor and a tower shield.

[Blazer]

I also think the Dodge feat should be +2 instead of +1. Seems like a feat should be worth more than 5 vials of pure water and some kobold beads...

Wish I had made this comparison earlier. Well said sir.

/clap

[nbhs275]

Paltry? I dont consider 33% of all your action points earned for 6 ac bonus paltry.

Especially when you could splash 1 level of monk.. get the 6 ac and 2 free feats.

Even 2 3 4 point cost would be better than what we have now.

especially when you also need the dex to fill them out.

Or, heres another one to wrap your brain around... Paladins give the entire group +5 AC for 10 action points. I think it would be fair for a fighter to be able to gain +3 personal AC for 12 action point.

It would also of been nice if they had given fighters ways to enhance the feat trees they actually selected. Example:

Improved TWF Defence:

pre reqs: TWF blocking, TWF Defence: Effect: Gain +1/2/3 AC and 2/4/6 DR(while blocking) while wielding two weapons. costs 2/4/6 AP

[Issip]

Exactly - Tempest is 4 points PLUS 3 feats

All the armor enhancements(mentioned above) is a paltry 24 AP

Tempest is the new batman. It was designed to give rangers a boost to DPS because they are dex based, but is being adapted for strength based TWF dwarves. Enjoy it, but don't expect it to last forever, and don't try to pretend it's in line with fighter's enhancement lines. Used for a dex ranger it is appropriate, used as it is today, well we all know it's headed for a nerfing (just like the batman build and the evasion in full plate), so don't light up the forums with your cries when they balance the game to try and make sword and board make sense - it has to be done and you know it.

[icculus]

The balance that should be done is to completely delete the AC bonus from Tempest. 10% attack rate is enough reason to want that enhancement, and that removal would also fix the bug of the bonus applying even when not TWF.

Improved TWF Defence:

pre reqs: TWF blocking, TWF Defence: Effect: Gain +1/2/3 AC and 2/4/6 DR(while blocking) while wielding two weapons. costs 2/4/6 AP

Wait for it, this is coming :mad:

Typical Turbine, stealth nerf something rather than actually fixing it :(

[icculus]

Tempest is the new batman. It was designed to give rangers a boost to DPS because they are dex based, but is being adapted for strength based TWF dwarves. Enjoy it, but don't expect it to last forever, and don't try to pretend it's in line with fighter's enhancement lines. Used for a dex ranger it is appropriate, used as it is today, well we all know it's headed for a nerfing (just like the batman build and the evasion in full plate), so don't light up the forums with your cries when they balance the game to try and make sword and board make sense - it has to be done and you know it.

Another uninformed person unable to seperate Batmen from Evasion. Batman has never been nerfed and is argueably far more powerful now with the changes to and increased need for Intimidate. It does probably require more gear than previously though.

The Evasion nerf was a major kick in the balls due to the lack of respec - I pitty the day Kate wakes up and decides it is time to wipe another 5% of the character base out :mad:

[Aesop]

Fighter Armor Optimization I
2AP
+1 AC while wearing armor (pjs don't count)
FIghter Armor Optimization II
4AP
+2 AC while wearing armor (pjs don't count)


Fighter Armor Mastery I
2AP
+1 Max Dex Bonus
Fighter Armor Mastery II
4AP
+2 Max Dex Bonus


Fighter Shield Mastery I
2AP
+1 Max Dex Bonus with a Tower Shield
+2 Blocking DR any Shield

Fighter Armor Mastery II
4AP
+2 Max Dex Bonus with a Tower Shield
+4 Blcking DR with any Shield

Feat: Armor Specialization
+2 DR/- with Armor (stacks with Material type DR ... Adamantine Full PLate with this Feat would be DR5/-)

Enhancement: Fighter Improved Armor Specialization I
1AP Prerequisite Feat: Armor Specialization
+1 DR/-
Fighter Armor Specialization II
2AP
+2 DR/-
Fighter Armor Specialization III
3AP
+3 DR/-

Ritual: Alchemical Armor Ritual I
+1 AC for Cloth and Light Armor
+2 AC for Medium and Heavy Armor

Ritual:Alchemical Shield Ritual I
+1 AC for Bucklers Light and Heavy Shield
+2 AC for Tower Shield



That's what I think anyway

Aesop

[icculus]

Ritual: Alchemical Armor Ritual I
+1 AC for Cloth and Light Armor
+2 AC for Medium and Heavy Armor

Ritual:Alchemical Shield Ritual I
+1 AC for Bucklers Light and Heavy Shield
+2 AC for Tower Shield


Very nice!

[redoubt]

Paltry? I dont consider 33% of all your action points earned for 6 ac bonus paltry.

Especially when you could splash 1 level of monk.. get the 6 ac and 2 free feats.

Even 2 3 4 point cost would be better than what we have now.

I think I am misunderstanding these two lines. I need some help.

fighter armor mastery increases the max dex bonus of your armor up to +3 correct?

fighter shield mastery does the same, correct?

If I am correct then you are spending 24 AP to get up to 3AC (not 6) due to increased dex bonus because the more restrictive of the armor or shield dex bonus will apply.

If you take only armor mastery and get your armor to allow +4 dex but your shield only allows +1 you only get +1. Thus you have to also take shield mastery to get your shield dex bonus up to +4.

Again, total benifit for 24 ap is only 3 AC. Am I getting this right? If I am it seems insanely expensive.

[Blazer]

Am I getting this right?

Yep, you are. Seems a bit silly, doesn't it?

[The_Phenx]

I think I am misunderstanding these two lines. I need some help.

fighter armor mastery increases the max dex bonus of your armor up to +3 correct?

fighter shield mastery does the same, correct?

If I am correct then you are spending 24 AP to get up to 3AC (not 6) due to increased dex bonus because the more restrictive of the armor or shield dex bonus will apply.

If you take only armor mastery and get your armor to allow +4 dex but your shield only allows +1 you only get +1. Thus you have to also take shield mastery to get your shield dex bonus up to +4.

Again, total benifit for 24 ap is only 3 AC. Am I getting this right? If I am it seems insanely expensive.

100% correct.. which is why id needs desperately to be fixed.

[The_Phenx]

Still after some developer love.

[Borror0]

Still after some developer love.

Bump mine (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=158720) while you're at it. ;)

[vtecfiend99]

While I agree with you all that the AP cost for the fighter armor/shield feats are so far beyond what they should be that they are almost crippling, I dont agree that everything needs to be nerfed.

Maybe YOU didnt play or like rangers before this enhancment came out but i sure did and i remember BEGGING and BRIBING people to let me in groups that didnt know me.

TEMPEST does NOT need a nerf. and for that matter, who cares if a one/two level monk spalsh is powerful??? It is in in PNP also. Anyone ever have a pnp monk/ranger? VERY VERY GOOD. (sprinkle in a little vow of poverty and that stingy"low magic campaign" dm starts clawing his eyes out lol)

Just because YOUR favorite class is not the "BEST" right now dont start hating on others fun.

The monk splash did one thing really well. it allowed people who are casual players to get an AC that actually matters. I am in no way a casual player but i see the value in this. Monk levels dont need to change, fighters need some SERIOUS feat, enhancment and equipment love to get their ac to a point that it can matter in current content. Also there are other things that can make them better without the big ac numbers. Percentage to dodge an attack completely? that stacks with a blur effect because it is different... maybe?


The point is, a lack of content has led SO many people to roll new monk splashes and if they get ruined, those people will be very upset... NERFING IS BAD FOR THE GAME!

And using the example of the evasion nerf is not so good an example because we ALL KNEW that it was not working as intended. EVERYONE who rolled that type of build knew it was coming. Monk wisdom bonus to ac IS working as intended and IS in line with pnp.

You want love for your fighter? FINE I wouldnt mind having a GOOD fighter that I can feel happy with either... BUT IT DOESNT HAVE TO COME AT THE EXPENSE OF OTHER BUILDS.

[The_Phenx]

While I agree with you all that the AP cost for the fighter armor/shield feats are so far beyond what they should be that they are almost crippling, I dont agree that everything needs to be nerfed.

Maybe YOU didnt play or like rangers before this enhancment came out but i sure did and i remember BEGGING and BRIBING people to let me in groups that didnt know me.

TEMPEST does NOT need a nerf. and for that matter, who cares if a one/two level monk spalsh is powerful??? It is in in PNP also. Anyone ever have a pnp monk/ranger? VERY VERY GOOD. (sprinkle in a little vow of poverty and that stingy"low magic campaign" dm starts clawing his eyes out lol)

Just because YOUR favorite class is not the "BEST" right now dont start hating on others fun.

The monk splash did one thing really well. it allowed people who are casual players to get an AC that actually matters. I am in no way a casual player but i see the value in this. Monk levels dont need to change, fighters need some SERIOUS feat, enhancment and equipment love to get their ac to a point that it can matter in current content. Also there are other things that can make them better without the big ac numbers. Percentage to dodge an attack completely? that stacks with a blur effect because it is different... maybe?


The point is, a lack of content has led SO many people to roll new monk splashes and if they get ruined, those people will be very upset... NERFING IS BAD FOR THE GAME!

And using the example of the evasion nerf is not so good an example because we ALL KNEW that it was not working as intended. EVERYONE who rolled that type of build knew it was coming. Monk wisdom bonus to ac IS working as intended and IS in line with pnp.

You want love for your fighter? FINE I wouldnt mind having a GOOD fighter that I can feel happy with either... BUT IT DOESNT HAVE TO COME AT THE EXPENSE OF OTHER BUILDS.

Chuckle... no where have I ever said I want others to be nerfed, others have however and I dont agree... with no re-spec option its a horrible thing when the big ole bat comes out.

I just want the enhancement line brought in line with the rest of the game.

[vtecfiend99]

Chuckle... no where have I ever said I want others to be nerfed, others have however and I dont agree... with no re-spec option its a horrible thing when the big ole bat comes out.

I just want the enhancement line brought in line with the rest of the game.

I know you didnt haha, just the direction this thread was going.

What if fighter action boosts lasted longer depending on what one they are and what level you take?

Armor boost: 2 ac PER ENHANCMENT LEVEL and say a minute per enh level-- now that'd be good.
Damage Boost: 2 damage per enh level and 30 sec per enh level


also, many fighter enhancments as they are currently implemented should cost one a.p. per level. like 1,1,1,1 not 1,2,3,4 Intimidate comes to mind. now if it gave a bonus equal to number of ap spent THAT would be worth it

[The_Phenx]

I know you didnt haha, just the direction this thread was going.

What if fighter action boosts lasted longer depending on what one they are and what level you take?

Armor boost: 2 ac PER ENHANCMENT LEVEL and say a minute per enh level-- now that'd be good.
Damage Boost: 2 damage per enh level and 30 sec per enh level


also, many fighter enhancments as they are currently implemented should cost one a.p. per level. like 1,1,1,1 not 1,2,3,4 Intimidate comes to mind. now if it gave a bonus equal to number of ap spent THAT would be worth it


Agreed... they said they re-worked fighter enhancements for mod 8... So I am patiently waiting to see what they came up with... I was just hoping to spurn some attention for a fix for this problem while they were at it.

The most logical solutions to my mind are to reduce the cost or mak it so that fighters armor mastery has not only ac but inherant DR that comes with it.

After all if the guy is wearing full plate.. even if you get thru it.. your swing is not going to hit as hard.


We shall see

[Mhykke]

Tempest is the new batman. It was designed to give rangers a boost to DPS because they are dex based, but is being adapted for strength based TWF dwarves. Enjoy it, but don't expect it to last forever, and don't try to pretend it's in line with fighter's enhancement lines. Used for a dex ranger it is appropriate, used as it is today, well we all know it's headed for a nerfing (just like the batman build and the evasion in full plate), so don't light up the forums with your cries when they balance the game to try and make sword and board make sense - it has to be done and you know it.


Settle down. Tempest made rangers on the same playing field as barbarians. And now we're starting to see the ideas come out of boosting fighters and paladins.

I think the devs realize that nerfs aren't the way to go, and they should just boost the classes that need help a bit.

[Borror0]

NERFING IS BAD FOR THE GAME!
Nope. Pointless nerfs are. Nerfing into is Oblivion is. Inflation is.

Nerf itself? Not at all.

BUT IT DOESNT HAVE TO COME AT THE EXPENSE OF OTHER BUILDS.
You're kidding, right?

That can't happen. If I boost everyone but you, it comes to the exact same thing as nerfing you! Better to nerf, sometimes, than to keep the inflation up. Inflation is bad in so many ways, force into pigeonholing, great harder system to work with and so on. There are moments where buffing has its place, other where nerfing is better.

Currently, THF is much less DPS than TWF. A good fix to that, long with making trash mobs worth DPSing once more, is to buff up THF's damage. That's totally fine. Probably applying Flaming and the like on glancing blow would do it. You can inflate the damage without any problem!! However, there are things that are more dangerous to inflate. Armor Class is one of them.

Trust me, the best way to solve the whole TWF issue is to nerf that TWFing by a bit. (I'm not advocating reducing it into oblivion, but lowering it to a point where the offense sacrifice is more balance than it currently is.) Otherwise, you'll need to find 10 APs to give to the fighter without:

Costing him new slows
Costing him too many feats
Costing him APs

Then, once that is done, you have to improve S&B because S&B sucks since Module 4.0, that's not new.

Once you fix the AC issue, you still got the sacrifice issue to fix.

Nerfing is the right thing. It's not always. It's something to use with caution, but it's not something to avoid at all costs! Nerfing is not cool? Having a TWF beating you on all level is not any more fun. You're just bringing things up to where it's balanced. Regardless of what happens, your TWF build won't be able to do what he does right now.

Regardless of what will be chosen as a solution.

Nerfing is, in this case, the option with the less consequences. It's the easiest option. the one without the less undesired possible consequences. As they say, in front of two similar solutions, the best one is the most simple.

[The_Phenx]

Regardless

You keep saying this... I do not think it means what you think it means... :D

[Borror0]

Regardless

You keep saying this... I do not think it means what you think it means... :D

Perhaps. I'll find the right equivalent and change that. ;)

*opens French-English dictionary*

[vtecfiend99]

Nope. Pointless nerfs are. Nerfing into is Oblivion is. Inflation is.

Nerf itself? Not at all.

You're kidding, right?

That can't happen. If I boost everyone but you, it comes to the exact same thing as nerfing you! Better to nerf, sometimes, than to keep the inflation up. Inflation is bad in so many ways, force into pigeonholing, great harder system to work with and so on. There are moments where buffing has its place, other where nerfing is better.

Currently, THF is much less DPS than TWF. A good fix to that, long with making trash mobs worth DPSing once more, is to buff up THF's damage. That's totally fine. Probably applying Flaming and the like on glancing blow would do it. You can inflate the damage without any problem!! However, there are things that are more dangerous to inflate. Armor Class is one of them.

Trust me, the best way to solve the whole TWF issue is to nerf that TWFing by a bit. (I'm not advocating reducing it into oblivion, but lowering it to a point where the offense sacrifice is more balance than it currently is.) Otherwise, you'll need to find 10 APs to give to the fighter without:

Costing him new slows
Costing him too many feats
Costing him APs

Then, once that is done, you have to improve S&B because S&B sucks since Module 4.0, that's not new.

Once you fix the AC issue, you still got the sacrifice issue to fix.

Nerfing is the right thing. It's not always. It's something to use with caution, but it's not something to avoid at all costs! Nerfing is not cool? Having a TWF beating you on all level is not any more fun. You're just bringing things up to where it's balanced. Regardless of what happens, your TWF build won't be able to do what he does right now.

Regardless of what will be chosen as a solution.

Nerfing is, in this case, the option with the less consequences. It's the easiest option. the one without the less undesired possible consequences. As they say, in front of two similar solutions, the best one is the most simple.

the sacrifice is in the feats and classes you have to take to get that ac. I know that they are not all terrible sacrifices but they shouldnt be. S&B needs help and it REALLY doesnt have to be help in the form of making everyone else suck. Just because YOU prefer sword and board doesnt mean we all have to OR that it should be better. It's NOT against the spirit of PNP for a dex based character that multiclasses and spends feats to get a much better ac than a s&b. deal with it, i'm sure your boosts and love is coming but stop acting like the fact that people can have an ac that ACTUALLY STOPS YOU FROM GETTING HIT( IMAGINE SUCH A THING!!!!) is somehow BREAKING the game lmao. What is broken is the to-hit-bonus of mobs. nerf THAT and then we can talk about useless nerfs to players ac so you can stop whining because your dwarf doesnt have the most UBER AC possible.

worry about how you want YOUR favorite class to be better not how much you hate that others favorite class finally have their day in the sun. get over yourself.

[Borror0]

the sacrifice is in the feats and classes you have to take to get that ac.
But it's too small! Imbalanced!! Not right!!

S&B needs help and it REALLY doesnt have to be help in the form of making everyone else suck. Just because YOU prefer sword and board doesnt mean we all have to OR that it should be better.
I don't want it to better. I want it balanced in line with TWF.

Look, right not it looks like that:

High AC & TWF
DPS TWF
THF
_
_
S&B
Ranged

Now:

Nerf High AC, High DPS TWF to it becomes "decent" AC instead. (Don't touch the DPS side, it's fine like this)
Boost S&B.
Boost THF.
Boost ranged combat... if that's still possible.

Then, it shall be balanced.

Read this thread (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=159126) if you want my views on balancing.

I don't want S&B to be the new TWF. I want things brought back in line.

It's NOT against the spirit of PNP for a dex based character that multiclasses and spends feats to get a much better ac than a s&b.
So? PnP wasn't balanced in the first place.

i'm sure your boosts and love is coming
I'm not much into the whole "opiate for the masses" theory...

worry about how you want YOUR favorite class to be better not how much you hate that others favorite class finally have their day in the sun. get over yourself.
...right!:rolleyes:

I mean, I'm totally not the guy with three dwarves asking Turbine to nerf dwarves!

I mean, I just want to imrpove my character!! It's obvious! :eek:

[vtecfiend99]

But it's too small! Imbalanced!! Not right!!

I don't want it to better. I want it balanced in line with TWF.

Look, right not it looks like that:

High AC & TWF
DPS TWF
THF
_
_
S&B
Ranged

Now:

Nerf High AC, High DPS TWF to it becomes "decent" AC instead. (Don't touch the DPS side, it's fine like this)
Boost S&B.
Boost THF.
Boost ranged combat... if that's still possible.

Then, it shall be balanced.

Read this thread (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=159126) if you want my views on balancing.

I don't want S&B to be the new TWF. I want things brought back in line.

So? PnP wasn't balanced in the first place.

I'm not much into the whole "opiate for the masses" theory...

...right!:rolleyes:

I mean, I'm totally not the guy with three dwarves asking Turbine to nerf dwarves!

I mean, I just want to imrpove my character!! It's obvious! :eek:
It is obvious. The fact that you are SO in favor of punishing people for having characters that would DARE be better than yours in ANY way. Everyone has their time in the sun... right now we FINALLY have people able to make characters that can not get the living **** pummeled out of them without having to farm an amount of rare items that is insane.

also, to get this untouchable ac that is in the EXTREME high end you need:
chattering ring
icy robe

neither of these are easy to find... or necessary to get an ac that matters on certain builds... just because YOUR pet build isnt one of them doesnt mean everyone who has a monk ranger needs to have the nerf hammer smack them in the face.

and as far as your trite little "opiate for the masses"... have you EVER owned a business? served customers? done anything where you had to keep people buying your product and not someone elses? The answer is a very obvious no because if you had you would know there ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS has to be a carrot. somethign to keep them buying, in this case playing. frankly a 100% balanced game is BORING AS HELL. everytime there is somethign GOOD for a class you have everyone who doesnt play or like that class coming out of the woodwork to bash it and whine to high heaven about how they are being short changed.

back in the day when the cap was 10 i bet you felt real guilty about playing a fighter and hoped they would just nerf the living hell out of you huh? right...


Power creep is a law of gaming my friend. It has to be there to keep people playing give them something fresh. the only bad that power creep brings is when it comes too much too fast. I think SIX MODS of not being able to get a little love was enough. Time and change will put you in the sun again with your dwarven intimitank builds, it's already happening with some raids. Your pet class needs help to be brought to the level of other builds, not have everyone else bashed down.

[Borror0]

It is obvious. The fact that you are SO in favor of punishing people for having characters that would DARE be better than yours in ANY way.
Oh really? Right...:rolleyes:


I don't want 'my build' to get better. I have talked about other classes too before, I argued against many nerf.
Don't think you've figure me out. You haven't.

I'm not keen on the idea of nerfing, for your information. Go back, read all of my posts since June 3rd (release of Module 7) and you'll see my point of view on TWF AC. I am not ''happy" to nerf. However, I am rational enough to know what is better and what's worse.

Listen! If I boost S&B higher than TWF AC, how is that any different than nerfing TWF? Go. Explain.

and as far as your trite little "opiate for the masses"... have you EVER owned a business? served customers? done anything where you had to keep people buying your product and not someone elses? The answer is a very obvious no because if you had you would know there ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS has to be a carrot.
You don't get it...

My opiate for the masses argument was about "giving love without thinking of the consequences", which you seem to be in favor of.

somethign to keep them buying, in this case playing. frankly a 100% balanced game is BORING AS HELL. everytime there is somethign GOOD for a class you have everyone who doesnt play or like that class coming out of the woodwork to bash it and whine to high heaven about how they are being short changed.
It's silly to have a well balanced game if it is poorly designed.
back in the day when the cap was 10 i bet you felt real guilty about playing a fighter
and hoped they would just nerf the living hell out of you huh? right...
If I was around, probably.

Power creep is a law of gaming my friend. It has to be there to keep people playing give them something fresh.
Improvement can be given in an healthy well-thought manner, or just throwing overpowered abilities.

You seem to think balance is not important. Sad to hear that.

[vtecfiend99]

Listen! If I boost S&B higher than TWF AC, how is that any different than nerfing TWF? Go. Explain.



You seem to think balance is not important. Sad to hear that.

It's different because the to-hit bonus of mobs wouldnt be changed so we would both either-- have decent ac or both get the snot beat out of us no matter what we do. hmmm what one sounds better to the clerics out there???


balance is important in that all classes should be fun. nerfing people=NOT FUN... making classes and builds that are lacking better and more in line with others= FUN

DING DING WE HAVE A WINNER.


and if you cant reason for yourself how LOWERING another classes ac instead of RAISING the lacking class without LOWERING the to-hit bonus of mobs is different then we have a serious problem sir.

[Borror0]

Not worth responding to.

[Ustice]

Don't let this debate stick to the outliers. I don't care if TWF or S&B have the highest AC. What I care about is if it is even worth a cleric, bard, or rogue to wear armor. Especially clerics, who have the heavy armor proficiency. Right now, there is NO reason to wear armor for most of them, other than their special properties. The armor slot for most characters has become just another trinket slot that takes longer to change out.

AC is there for a reason. We have entered the realm where AC only matters to a few individuals. Most people will only be missed 5% of the time (mob rolling a 1). AC disparities over 10 points in a d20 system are a tragedy. It means that AC is now a class feature, and not something that everyone can enjoy, but some are better at.

[vtecfiend99]

Don't let this debate stick to the outliers. I don't care if TWF or S&B have the highest AC. What I care about is if it is even worth a cleric, bard, or rogue to wear armor. Especially clerics, who have the heavy armor proficiency. Right now, there is NO reason to wear armor for most of them, other than their special properties. The armor slot for most characters has become just another trinket slot that takes longer to change out.

AC is there for a reason. We have entered the realm where AC only matters to a few individuals. Most people will only be missed 5% of the time (mob rolling a 1). AC disparities over 10 points in a d20 system are a tragedy. It means that AC is now a class feature, and not something that everyone can enjoy, but some are better at.

I agree with you 100% that most clerics bards and others not rangers/fighters have no where to go with ac and that it's a shame.

Despite what others think there are only TWO solutions for this that can work:

Lower mob to-hit bonus to somthign that makes sense

give others the ability thru equipment or enhancments to get their ac to an area of effectivness.





having said that tho... this is a game that is based on pnp. and in pnp, your ac begins to matter less and less in the 12 and up level range to the point of being very very niche type builds that can attain a useful ac at level 20 and up.

[Borror0]

Lower mob to-hit bonus to somthign that makes sense
But for that to be a good idea, you have to nerf some exisiting gear... and that bad.

give others the ability thru equipment or enhancments to get their ac to an area of effectivness.
If you understand the game well, you know that is not feasible nor a good idea.

having said that tho... this is a game that is based on pnp. and in pnp, your ac begins to matter less and less in the 12 and up level range to the point of being very very niche type builds that can attain a useful ac at level 20 and up.
That's a very bad argument. "Let's compy the flaws present in other games rather than correcting them."

[vtecfiend99]

But for that to be a good idea, you have to nerf some exisiting gear... and that bad.

If you understand the game well, you know that is not feasible nor a good idea.

That's a very bad argument. "Let's compy the flaws present in other games rather than correcting them."

WELL, why dont you grace us with the PROPER solution then? oh right you did. nerf everyone except fighters balance achieved.

I understand the game just fine Bor, and i understand that there are OTHER people playing and not just ME. something you seem to have forgotten with your calls for blanket nerfs of a build.

There is no perfect solution to this... any scenario given will have arguments against it. the most important factor is player happiness and nerfing makes people unhappy.

Do you think its good that there is almost NOTHING i can do on my bard to get an ac that matters even a LITTLE?

of course you dont. but your solution is, make EVERYONE have a useless ac so i can stop whining, instead of making my ac useful or giving me the ability to have useful ac.

I dont think its right that your dwarven intimidator cant get an ac that matters in elite endgame content... I just think that you should be given the ability to have it instead of making my build suffer because of an inherent flaw in yours.

[Borror0]

WELL, why dont you grace us with the PROPER solution then? oh right you did. nerf everyone except fighters balance achieved.
That statement proves you're only trying to be right without taking the time to understand my arguments.

You're not worth arguing with.

[vtecfiend99]

That statement proves you're only trying to be right without taking the time to understand my arguments.

You're not worth arguing with.

Why because you've tried so hard to understand mine? Or because someone is actually disagreeing with you for once? or because you did anythign but tell me i was wrong but cant give an idea of what you think is better without nerfinf builds for no reason?

Dont get me wrong Bor i think you're a good guy and have added alot to the game but I believe very firmly that you are WRONG about this. What bothers me the most is that you are one of the most vocal forums personalities and the devs might take what YOU say as gospel given all of your other good ideas.

I'm sorry if i have offended you, but you have to see it from others point of view:

If you simply nerf the ac of a certain build you've done NOTHING to balance the game. all you've done is make it so, yet again, ac is useless to everyone except the elite few that can outfit themselves with the best of the best of the rarest of the uberest gear. a good ac should be able to be achieved by more than just a fighter with a shield or a multiclass build that takes advantage of class features and enhancments.

the balance that you love so much is not just US against EACH OTHER but US against THE GAME.

[Mithran]

Enhancements that are race-based should be eliminated and opened for all races.

[Ustice]

Enhancements that are race-based should be eliminated and opened for all races.

I'd argue that this should be done with class enhancements too. Make them Class FEATURE based. Then we can get more diversity back into the game.

[The_Phenx]

Do you think its good that there is almost NOTHING i can do on my bard to get an ac that matters even a LITTLE?



Im shure you could go into kobolds assault and never get hit :) lol

Seriosuly tho.. should a bard be able to defend off the advances of an elite demon strike force by having armour that they can't penetrate or jump out of the way nimbly to avoid being struck or parry their strike.... or should he be able to fascinate them and leave them helpless.

A bards defenses are his spells as are a sorcs.

A monk should be able to dodge out of the way

Rangers are wiley and good with weapons to parry and dodge to avoid damage.

Fighters are supposed to be clad in armor that protects them, or be able to parry the stikes of monster to avoid damage, and when they do get hit the armor is supposed to negate a good bit of the damage.

A barbarian is supposed to wear skins of animals and beat the CR** out of his enemies before then can hurt him

A cleric is supposed to be as close to as competant in armor as a fighter, but not as good with defending with his weapons...and is supposed to use spells to attack and defend himself from enemies.

etc etc you get the idea.

But should a bard be able to use "ac" to defend himself from strikes form monsters... yes... just not ml 23 elite orthons, only the cream of the crop should be able to avoid being struck by such a fearsome foe.

I think most of it is spot on...the problem I see is that they decided to help out certain classes to function at higher levels against some pretty hefty monsters, and they left a few classes in the dust with nothing new available to them to help them face these things as their experiece progresses.

Task at hand people... task at hand.

[Borror0]

Or because someone is actually disagreeing with you for once?
I like when someone disagrees with me, depending on who it is.

When I see some posters quoting me, I smile. Why? Because I know that those posters will bring something to the table. By that I mean guys like Depravity, Angelus dead, Aesop, Turial, etc. I don't mind being proved wrong, at all. If I was wrong, that means that now I know what is right. As we say, better to look liek an idiot for a minute than to really be one for the rest of your life.

But for that, I have to be wrong.;)


If you simply nerf the ac of a certain build you've done NOTHING to balance the game. all you've done is make it so, yet again, ac is useless to everyone except the elite few that can outfit themselves with the best of the best of the rarest of the uberest gear. a good ac should be able to be achieved by more than just a fighter with a shield or a multiclass build that takes advantage of class features and enhancments.

That's a much better argument and one I have agreed with in the past.

But, the problem is that. No matter what you're going to do, you're just going to push more and more specialization. Getting hits 60% of the time at 50 AC or at 70 AC is the same on the user end. You're as strong in both cases as you get hit the same. However, if you have to reach 70 AC to get hit 60% of the time, rather than 50 AC, you're weaker.

The gap between S&B and TWF AC is so large that simply buffing will not work. Well, you can try, but it would be a very silly attempt. A dex-based TWF ranger/monk build can reach 10 more AC than any S&B build. That's a lot. (That's without Favored Defense, btw.) A TWF str-based ranger can get a 67 AC by himself. That's quite a lot too.

If your intention is to bring this to an area where mobs to-hit is in the right area, how are you going to close that gap? A S&B build, with all the gear needed, as about 66 AC by himself. So, if you want the Str-based guy to have 'acceptable AC' and the Dex-based buy to have 'good AC' and the S&B to have the best AC, how high do you need to bring the S&B? the answer, around the 80 area (and then give more boosts to S&B to make up for the DPS). That's 14 new AC.

You think you can find that without any unwanted side effects?? Let me doubt.

I am all about nerfing mobs' to-hit. It is too high. If you, like me, dislike the fact that AC doesn't protect you that good in higher level content, the solution doesn't come from inflating the AC values of S&B. If Eladrin would want us to get hit less often, he'd lower the mobs' to-hit. If he raise the AC, he will also raise the to-hits unless you convince him of otherwise.

That's how it works.

I dislike nerfs too, but something they are the best options.

[Korvek]

WELL, why dont you grace us with the PROPER solution then? oh right you did. nerf everyone except fighters balance achieved.

I'd say that a very large problem is that there are few, if any, effective reasons to go S&B any longer. That's a problem. Each option should have a level of viability and have the potential to perform as well as others(Note: They can still perform differently, they just shouldn't be nearly useless by comparison). S&B is behind in AC, DPS, etc.


There is no perfect solution to this... any scenario given will have arguments against it. the most important factor is player happiness and nerfing makes people unhappy.

Another problem would be that the final resultant of continued boosts would potentially leave many players unhappy, as there will eventually be very few options left for players to try out and still be effective due to quest design for very specific(and powerful) builds.


Do you think its good that there is almost NOTHING i can do on my bard to get an ac that matters even a LITTLE?

I'd say that you could get to a point where it matters, were you willing to sacrifice a lot. Unfortunately, for most S&B regardless of how much you sacrifice, you can't get it as high as someone who is TWF and is also willing to give up a slight bit, which is a problem.


of course you dont. but your solution is, make EVERYONE have a useless ac so i can stop whining, instead of making my ac useful or giving me the ability to have useful ac.

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure the whole reason Borr has been arguing to lower the upper limits of AC is so that mob to-hit is lowered. This will make people who currently do not have a viable AC in fact have an AC that does begin to matter. The rationale I see behind his arguments is that due to the d20 nature of the system, the less range that AC's can span, the more people can get a meaningful armor class rather than have one that is useless.

There will probably always be the people who strive to get an incredible AC, just as there are now. There will also always be people who don't bother. Those two groups will be in the same position they are currently, but a nerf would benefit the people in the middle more than a boost would in my opinion. I believe that a nerf would help more because there are certain builds/characters/players that are incapable of putting as much effort into obtaining the incredible AC. By lowering the maximum AC, mob to-hit may be lowered as well so that these middling AC characters will have an AC that really does matter, even though currently their AC may not have any significance at all. A boost would just leave these people further behind.


I dont think its right that your dwarven intimidator cant get an ac that matters in elite endgame content... I just think that you should be given the ability to have it instead of making my build suffer because of an inherent flaw in yours.

At times, nerfs are more effective at solving problems than boosts are.

[vtecfiend99]

i agree bor that the actual ac NUMBERS dont mean anything in the end, what matters is percentage to get missed/hit what have you.

I say GIVE the ability to achieve higher(i.e., more meaningful) AC.

If we're going to lower the ac of a build, just to get the numbers down that not correct. when i say give the abiity that can be:

1: make them able to get a higher number so that, as the game works NOW, they have a comfortable ac zone to reside in with a reasonable amount of equipment and feat/a.p. expenditure.

2: reformulate mob to-hit bonus, the amount of coding involved in this is staggering so it's not too much to assume that they would also modify existing items to reflect this. rainman robe becomes plus 2 bonus? ring become 2 also bracers 1???


the easiest thing for the devs to do at this point is what they have done, albeit in a fashion some cant get in line with: ac bonus on items. I think it was a mistake that the most important of these was a robe for a dex based build seeing as it came at the same time as the ability to splash monk. also, at the same time that plus 8 armor bracers became available to players, combined there is ten more ac available to a dex build not available before. If this would have been the reverse situation with s&b getting this no one would care. I feel that there are better things coming in the future for s&b because i have faith that the devs know something is wrong.


to nerf a build with no others changes to the game seems irresponsible at best... but to make the changes necessary to fix the ac situation, well, i think we can agree at least on the nature of the devs that work on this game and how thin they are stretched just getting new content out twice a year. It's probably not gonna happen.

I just think that, even as a band-aid solution s&b needs love in the ac numbers department to lower their % of getting hit. Or other abilities i have mentioned before. I dont think that, with the game in its current state, we need to nerf one of the only builds capable of achieving a nigh untouchable ac.

[Borror0]

The problem with fixing with item, dwooley, is that we have a finite number of slot and that, while grinding for gear is OK, insane grinds are not fun.

[vtecfiend99]

The problem with fixing with item, dwooley, is that we have a finite number of slot and that, while grinding for gear is OK, insane grinds are not fun.

i agree but what else can we suggest that is feasible with the limited resources this game has?

[Borror0]

i agree but what else can we suggest that is feasible with the limited resources this game has?

That's a question only at Turbine can answer. Eladrin, you're out there?

[The_Phenx]

Hopefully he's busy reducing the cost of fighters armor/sheild mastery

Cough (hijack) cough

Lol ... worthwhile discussion tho.

But Ac numbers arent as bad off as people think... a mid 40's sees a respectable difference in the shroud and sub... 65 and your near untouchable.

[Borror0]

But Ac numbers arent as bad off as people think... a mid 40's sees a respectable difference in the shroud and sub... 65 and your near untouchable.
On Normal, unflanked. (Mobs got big bonus while flanking or when you're not 'aggored' on them.)

[The_Phenx]

Aye true...they all have the vod goggles.

I just know how survivable Ghin is... so I base my opinions on him.

[Borror0]

I just know how survivable Ghin is... so I base my opinions on him.
Logical way to approve the discussion. Can't really fault you for that. How much AC you said?