Loot Rant

[nbhs275]

Can you PLEASE just make the god forsaken 20th run end reward list a COMPLETE list? Im at over 240 reaver completions between 6 characters...AND i still havent been offered a single tome, nevermind any tome i would actually need or want. Which is rather strange "random" odds when i consider that every list has included the madstones, a tenderizer, a dreamspitter, and a cloudburst.

Right now it seems like your giving us a "random 50% chance" that is actually 95% one list of **** that your most likely going to have all of considering you've now run the stupid raid 20/40/60/80 times, with a 5% chance of one or two tomes being slid in.

[icculus]

Agreed - fix it!

[Torosar]

Well, how often do bound tomes get looted from the chest comparatively to named loot items? Not very often right? So it would seem there is some sort of seperate scale for getting tomes.. and really, it makes sense for it to be upheld in a 20th run reward list. Even though it's fairly frustrating, and has unfortunately irked some players i know (along with other things) to leave the game. Admittedly, the chances of getting a tome on the reaver list do seem sort of low (maybe because it's so easy - who knows).. but i don't think a complete loot list is the solution.

[Amabel]

I agree it's frustrating. But the problem is that if we KNEW we'd get a complete loot list we'd just keep grinding until every capped character on the server had +3 in every stat, further widening gap between the regular and casual gamers, making it even harder to balance content.

So, while I understand your frustrations:

/not signed

[ThrasherGT]

Sorry about Your bad luck, But I have to disagree. I could, however, see doing the full list (including all tomes) as a reward for completing 100 Reaver runs. Sure, it's a huge number, but anything less is too much of an "easy button" for raid loot. I would set the number for each raid individually, but I would make the number very high for the full list reward..........................

[llevenbaxx]

Would like to see a complete list at 20 and only 20. Then have it go back to the .0045(or w/e:))% chance at 40...60 etc... would be nice.

...or like someone proposed in another thread, allow us to trade a bound tome in for another of a type we can actually use. Makes sense considering its supposed to be a reward... implying it should actually be something we might want.:)

[MageLL]

Somewhat off subject here, but seeing that you mentioned you've done reaver 240 times I thought of something.

The idea of offering a 20th reward was pretty good of an idea from a development standpoint. Now that its been implemented for awhile the side-effect of statements like yours just sound horrible from a games standpoint.

If I was looking at trying a game and saw that somebody ran a certain quest 240 times and still didn't get the item that is supposed to drop in there I'd probably pass on the game. The other thing it says to me is that there must not be alot of stuff to do if somebody has run the same quest that many times... for whatever reason.

[Laith]

i find it interesting that people believe the easiest and shortest raid in the game should spit up some of the game's most coveted awards when run ad nausium.

It's a loot run. If tomes were easier to get, it'd be THE loot run.

[Shagn]

Somewhat off subject here, but seeing that you mentioned you've done reaver 240 times I thought of something.

The idea of offering a 20th reward was pretty good of an idea from a development standpoint. Now that its been implemented for awhile the side-effect of statements like yours just sound horrible from a games standpoint.

If I was looking at trying a game and saw that somebody ran a certain quest 240 times and still didn't get the item that is supposed to drop in there I'd probably pass on the game. The other thing it says to me is that there must not be alot of stuff to do if somebody has run the same quest that many times... for whatever reason.

++!!

Full list, including tomes at 100 completions. That is a serious sink of time (including raid timer), even if it is "just a loot run" as so many people say it is. I don't think there is any reason for a single character to complete a raid 100 times and still get stiffed.

To the posters griping about people would like a little better chance for a tome: You want to talk about low hanging fruit? How about the old +2 tome at 1750? Much easier than running Reaver 100 times! And +2 tomes were super rare when that came out (even more so than +3 tomes are today).

[Dexxaan]

Sorry about Your bad luck, But I have to disagree. I could, however, see doing the full list (including all tomes) as a reward for completing 100 Reaver runs. Sure, it's a huge number, but anything less is too much of an "easy button" for raid loot. I would set the number for each raid individually, but I would make the number very high for the full list reward..........................

Full list I´d Agree. But I don´t agree that this "List" should include +3 Tomes..... the full list of Named Items on your 20th / 40th, etc should be implemented, but +3 Tomes are random items and should be considered as such.....

Maybe, just maybe one (and no more) +3 Tome (random) should be included on the 20/40 ++ run reward List to help the Disgruntled aim for something.


i find it interesting that people believe the easiest and shortest raid in the game should spit up some of the game's most coveted awards when run ad nausium.

It's a loot run. If tomes were easier to get, it'd be THE loot run.

/ Agreed.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Can you PLEASE just make the god forsaken 20th run end reward list a COMPLETE list? Im at over 240 reaver completions between 6 characters...AND i still havent been offered a single tome, nevermind any tome i would actually need or want. Which is rather strange "random" odds when i consider that every list has included the madstones, a tenderizer, a dreamspitter, and a cloudburst.

Right now it seems like your giving us a "random 50% chance" that is actually 95% one list of **** that your most likely going to have all of considering you've now run the stupid raid 20/40/60/80 times, with a 5% chance of one or two tomes being slid in.

I'd rather they make the 1st a complete list to improve the NEW PLAYER EXPERIENCE. Many people will NEVER get to 240 reaver completions in their lifetime. Many will never hit 20. Lets give something nice to new players and casual players that will also be equally nice/helpful to grinders.

Or are you saying every 20th completion should be a complete list? If so, I'd say no to that... that just gives a nice little overpowering option to the grinders that will further upset game balance.

[Dexxaan]

I'd rather they make the 1st a complete list to improve the NEW PLAYER EXPERIENCE. Many people will NEVER get to 240 reaver completions in their lifetime. Many will never hit 20. Lets give something nice to new players and casual players that will also be equally nice/helpful to grinders.

Or are you saying every 20th completion should be a complete list? If so, I'd say no to that... that just gives a nice little overpowering option to the grinders that will further upset game balance.


Can we define if Complete List is Named Items or are +3 Tomes being considered "List Items" ?

Major difference here depending on he definition.

[Riddikulus]

IMO they should make all named items available every 20 runs... but not tomes. Those should remain as a special drop. That said I think it is silly that the better tomes only drop in raids... they should drop from any level appropriate quest. Them you wont have people grinding hundreds of reaver runs... that is just beyond bad for the game.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Can we define if Complete List is Named Items or are +3 Tomes being considered "List Items" ?

Major difference here depending on he definition.

They mean including the +3s, that seems to be what most grinders grind for.

[seldarin]

Can you PLEASE just make the god forsaken 20th run end reward list a COMPLETE list? Im at over 240 reaver completions between 6 characters...AND i still havent been offered a single tome, nevermind any tome i would actually need or want. Which is rather strange "random" odds when i consider that every list has included the madstones, a tenderizer, a dreamspitter, and a cloudburst.

Right now it seems like your giving us a "random 50% chance" that is actually 95% one list of **** that your most likely going to have all of considering you've now run the stupid raid 20/40/60/80 times, with a 5% chance of one or two tomes being slid in.

Call me a crazy cracker, but even in PnP tomes are considered rare items, so they shouldnt be any different in DDO. Hasnt the "i want my +3 tome" thread been done to death already. Give it a break already, is the +1 to your stat going to be THAT GAME BREAKING? I gotta say if your toon is that geared that it makes that huge a difference, i would seriously look at the build. Tomes are nice things to get, but if they were dropping like hotcakes then ppl would find something else to ***** about, ie, lack of content, thats the usual one that follows tome droppage.

Sooner or later you will get one.

Dunno about anyone else but im up to my ears in threads about tomes not dropping, almost as if it was an expectation. Take away the carrot/cheese and the rabbit/mouse dont dance no more

[Dexxaan]

They mean including the +3s, that seems to be what most grinders grind for.

Named Items I agree wholeheartedly. Tomes are rare Drops....no need to start demanding a right to have one every 20....ridiculous.


Call me a crazy cracker, but even in PnP tomes are considered rare items, so they shouldnt be any different in DDO. Hasnt the "i want my +3 tome" thread been done to death already. Give it a break already, is the +1 to your stat going to be THAT GAME BREAKING? I gotta say if your toon is that geared that it makes that huge a difference, i would seriously look at the build. Tomes are nice things to get, but if they were dropping like hotcakes then ppl would find something else to ***** about, ie, lack of content, thats the usual one that follows tome droppage.

Sooner or later you will get one.

Dunno about anyone else but im up to my ears in threads about tomes not dropping, almost as if it was an expectation. Take away the carrot/cheese and the rabbit/mouse dont dance no more

You Crazy Cracker! (You asked for it)

/agree 100%.

/Emote Close Thread

[nbhs275]

Call me a crazy cracker, but even in PnP tomes are considered rare items, so they shouldnt be any different in DDO. Hasnt the "i want my +3 tome" thread been done to death already. Give it a break already, is the +1 to your stat going to be THAT GAME BREAKING? I gotta say if your toon is that geared that it makes that huge a difference, i would seriously look at the build. Tomes are nice things to get, but if they were dropping like hotcakes then ppl would find something else to ***** about, ie, lack of content, thats the usual one that follows tome droppage.

Sooner or later you will get one.

Dunno about anyone else but im up to my ears in threads about tomes not dropping, almost as if it was an expectation. Take away the carrot/cheese and the rabbit/mouse dont dance no more

In pnp, you can simply get someone to cast wish multiple times. Consider that we are nearly lvl 17(the level you first get access to wish/miracle) yet we are still having to spend hundreds of hours trying to get 1 +3 tome...While in PnP at lvl 17 your parties wizard would take a few weeks and a stack of cash and make a dozen scrolls of it an boom done.

Also, yea, the difference of between a +2 wisdom tome and a +3 wisdom tome is rather big, when you consider that it basically lets a cleric free up 6 action point if it brings them to an odd number. 6 action points of 64 is rather large i would say.

[Belwaar]

Call me a crazy cracker, but even in PnP tomes are considered rare items, so they shouldnt be any different in DDO. Hasnt the "i want my +3 tome" thread been done to death already. Give it a break already, is the +1 to your stat going to be THAT GAME BREAKING? I gotta say if your toon is that geared that it makes that huge a difference, i would seriously look at the build. Tomes are nice things to get, but if they were dropping like hotcakes then ppl would find something else to ***** about, ie, lack of content, thats the usual one that follows tome droppage.

Sooner or later you will get one.

Dunno about anyone else but im up to my ears in threads about tomes not dropping, almost as if it was an expectation. Take away the carrot/cheese and the rabbit/mouse dont dance no more

/signed and agreed!

I like that they're still so rare... It's the best feeling when you pull a tome, regardless of +1, +2, +3, etc...at least I get excited when I pull one

[seldarin]

Named Items I agree wholeheartedly. Tomes are rare Drops....no need to start demanding a right to have one every 20....ridiculous.



You Crazy Cracker! (You asked for it)

/agree 100%.

/Emote Close Thread

Lol, true enough i did, and thank you for granting my wish :)

[Dirac]

I'd rather they make the 1st a complete list to improve the NEW PLAYER EXPERIENCE. Many people will NEVER get to 240 reaver completions in their lifetime. Many will never hit 20. Lets give something nice to new players and casual players that will also be equally nice/helpful to grinders.

Or are you saying every 20th completion should be a complete list? If so, I'd say no to that... that just gives a nice little overpowering option to the grinders that will further upset game balance.

This is/was a spectacular idea. I, MT and others supported it strongly when the raid loot changes were being made. If they are going to change anything now, which I kinda doubt, they should make this change.

[seldarin]

In pnp, you can simply get someone to cast wish multiple times. Consider that we are nearly lvl 17(the level you first get access to wish/miracle) yet we are still having to spend hundreds of hours trying to get 1 +3 tome...While in PnP at lvl 17 your parties wizard would take a few weeks and a stack of cash and make a dozen scrolls of it an boom done.

Also, yea, the difference of between a +2 wisdom tome and a +3 wisdom tome is rather big, when you consider that it basically lets a cleric free up 6 action point if it brings them to an odd number. 6 action points of 64 is rather large i would say.

Just a question, i have been playing PnP for over 20 years and in all that time i have come to regard vorpals as pretty rare items, very seldom do you have 1 per party, (even by lvl 16), let alone multiples per TOON, i dont see you complaining about the ready availability of those? Bit of balance if you will, dont keep going on about 1 thing and expounding on how readily something is available in PnP, without taking in the whole picture.

As to "simply cast wish multiple times" no self respecting GM would just allow that to happen. I know as a GM i would twist it any way that i saw fit in the event a player was going to self indulge to that degree. And not only that, it would cost you a mint to get a wizard of high enough lvl, around lvl 18 to cast that spell once, let alone multiple times, so not that readily available old son, unless you have had really **** GMs that give you anything and everything, not unlike turbine in that sense who often bow to the powergamers.

As to action points, being that i have a lvl 16 cleric, and have a +3 wisdom tome on him, what else would i spend those APs on that i havent already?

One thing further, whilst i cant speak for others, i treat Reaver as a 15-20 minute loot run, run 4 toons at the moment, there goes an hour of my time, prolly pull a few K PP in cash and items, 200k worth of gear for 1 hours work, i wouldnt mind being paid that at work :), if you are treating it as a tome hunt, you need to get out more, there are other quests, and as stated earlier, tomes arent the be all to end all, and are RARE items.

[Issip]

i find it interesting that people believe the easiest and shortest raid in the game should spit up some of the game's most coveted awards when run ad nausium.

It's a loot run. If tomes were easier to get, it'd be THE loot run.

I agree - the reaver is such a joke of a quest there shouldn't be any +3 tomes anyway - just remove the +3 tomes from the loot list and end the needless complaining (and needless reaver runs). Of course that won't happen as it would deal a crushing blow to the pykers who make up a huge portion of the game (8-9 of every 12 people in each reaver raid). Since +3 is the max tome in the game I'd rather see them given out for quests that require some skill or at least effort other than being able to pyke the same raid ad-nausium 240+ times.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

I agree - the reaver is such a joke of a quest there shouldn't be any +3 tomes anyway - just remove the +3 tomes from the loot list and end the needless complaining (and needless reaver runs). Of course that won't happen as it would deal a crushing blow to the pykers who make up a huge portion of the game (8-9 of every 12 people in each reaver raid). Since +3 is the max tome in the game I'd rather see them given out for quests that require some skill or at least effort other than being able to pyke the same raid ad-nausium 240+ times.

You know what's odd? After we were told the chance to get one was less than 1% you would think people would give up expecting to see one. I mean after 200 runs with a (was it .5%?) chance of a tome appearing it isn't surprising at all one didn't show up. And since the 20th run is also random, it just means that the 20th run is effectively 7 runs at once, so also not a high chance of seeing one.

That said, I have 2 chars that have 20 on reaver, one got no tomes, the other got a full set of +3s. Funny thing random number generators...

[Angelus_dead]

As to "simply cast wish multiple times" no self respecting GM would just allow that to happen. I know as a GM i would twist it any way that i saw fit in the event a player was going to self indulge to that degree. And not only that, it would cost you a mint to get a wizard of high enough lvl, around lvl 18 to cast that spell once
If you're following the D&D rules, you'd allow it to happen, because that's explicitly what the Wish spell rules say it does. That use of Wish is not subject to twisted interpretations. Furthermore, the costs of getting Wish cast for you are also listed in the rules.

[Alavatar]

In pnp, you can simply get someone to cast wish multiple times. Consider that we are nearly lvl 17(the level you first get access to wish/miracle) yet we are still having to spend hundreds of hours trying to get 1 +3 tome...While in PnP at lvl 17 your parties wizard would take a few weeks and a stack of cash and make a dozen scrolls of it an boom done.


Your DM must have forgotten about the XP cost of casting Wish, or the XP cost requirement when creating a scroll, wand or magic item that duplicates a spell with an XP cost.

Bare minimum, Wish costs at least 5k XP in PnP. That'll be at least 50k XP in DDO. That means casting Wish 5 times in succession costs, bare minimum, 25k XP in PnP, which is about a level and a half for an L17 wizard. Casting Wish 30 times (+5 to all attributes) would be 150k XP, which would take an wizard that just achieved L17 down to -14k XP (that's negative 14k).

I don't think it would be just "boom done" in PnP.

[icculus]

Bare minimum, Wish costs at least 5k XP in PnP. That'll be at least 50k XP in DDO. That means casting Wish 5 times in succession costs, bare minimum, 25k XP in PnP, which is about a level and a half for an L17 wizard. Casting Wish 30 times (+5 to all attributes) would be 150k XP, which would take an wizard that just achieved L17 down to -14k XP (that's negative 14k).

Math not your strong suit eh? 1,360,000 xp = lvl17

[Alavatar]

Math not your strong suit eh? 1,360,000 xp = lvl17

Reading comprehension not your strong suit, eh? I was referring to PnP experience level requirements.

[KoboldKiller]

It would appear Seabiscut is being beat again.

[Riddikulus]

Reading comprehension not your strong suit, eh? I was referring to PnP experience level requirements.Wasnt there also something about aging you a year or three when casting a wish? Maybe that was just AD&D. Seemed to me that it just wasn't something you could buy a dozen of at K-Mart on a whim.

[icculus]

Reading comprehension not your strong suit, eh? I was referring to PnP experience level requirements.

Writing is clearly not yours - if you are refering to PnP, might want to make that clear rather than hoping back and forth between DDO and PnP :rolleyes:

[Alavatar]

Wasnt there also something about aging you a year or three when casting a wish? Maybe that was just AD&D. Seemed to me that it just wasn't something you could buy a dozen of at K-Mart on a whim.

That was in prior versions of D&D. 3.0 removed the aging effect.

Edit: I think it was 5 years in AD&D 2nd Edition? I think they switched to XP cost in 3.0 Edition to make it more balanced across the various races. An elf casting Wish for a cost of 5 years of life isn't as big a deal as a human casting Wish.

[tihocan]

I'm against a full list, I like that there is no way to guarantee you'll be able to get some specific item.
As far as +3 tomes are concerned, their drop rate is low, you should know it and not expect to get any from the Reaver. I gave up a long time ago, if you still think the grind is worth it, then don't be surprised if you're disappointed...

[Alavatar]

Writing is clearly not yours - if you are refering to PnP, might want to make that clear rather than hoping back and forth between DDO and PnP :rolleyes:

You must need people to spell things out continuously, eh? I mentioned DDO once by offering a comparison of PnP XP cost to equivalent DDO XP cost. For then on, the paragraph referred to PnP which was spelled out. The only place it wasn't spelled out was the one sentance you seem to be stuck on.

Once again, reading comprehension could have prevented this issue.

Edit: And if you still aren't satisfied, DDO XP is a factor of 10 above PnP so you can do the math. But, since you need things spelled out for you I'll go ahead and save you the trouble. The DDO equivalent to casting Wish 30 times for +5 to all attributes would cost about 1.5 million XP which would bring a newly leveled L17 DDO wizard to -140k xp.

[Issip]

Why is the wish discussion being brought up again? Other people can play PnP however they want, DM's have complete freedom to do whatever, however any of the groups that I played with would laugh at the prospect of brining all your stats up by 5 on a wish. Other groups think it's fine - ok.

So how does this affect DDO again? Is the argument that we should all have +5 to all stats for essentially free and no more tomes? That would get rid of a lot of sought after loot, and add a lot of vanilla to the flavor of the game (all toons +5 to all stats). It wouldn't make the game a non-challenge as they'd have to create quests that assume all players have +5 to all stats so the mobs now need more HP, more con, more str, higher spell levels, etc..

Alternately, they could just take everyone's inherent bonus to zero and very slightly nerf all the mobs in the game (or leave them unchanged, there's nothing in this game that can't be done without tomes). Having tomes available but hard to get spices things up a bit (but also give advantages to power-gamers). I think this is appropriate as it gives most toons something to want and mixes up the toons a little as tomes give certain toons certain strengths, etc..

But hey, keep wishing for that wish spell and arguing about how your old DM let you get +5 to all stats from some generous Wizard at lvl 3, and that DDO should be that way, maybe someone will get jealous or care eventually.

[ThrasherGT]

WISH?????????

L

M

A

O


R

O

T

F

Seriously, this has to do with 20th end rewards how exactly?

You guys crack me up................................................ ..........:D

[icculus]

You must need people to spell things out continuously, eh? I mentioned DDO once by offering a comparison of PnP XP cost to equivalent DDO XP cost. For then on, the paragraph referred to PnP which was spelled out. The only place it wasn't spelled out was the one sentance you seem to be stuck on.

The following sentence is ambiguous which is where you created the problem. I agree it could be interpetated either way, but as this is the DDO forum I figured that would certainly be considered the default.

Once again, writing comprehension could have prevented this issue. But if nothing else, you certainly are providing me with some much needed amusement :p

[Dexxaan]

Once again, writing comprehension could have prevented this issue. But if nothing else, you certainly are providing me with some much needed amusement :p

Now there´s a term for English Majors to bang their heads on the wall on! :D

[eonfreon]

Writing is clearly not yours - if you are refering to PnP, might want to make that clear rather than hoping back and forth between DDO and PnP :rolleyes:

That he was referring to PnP and converting it to DDO is pretty ****ing self explanatory :rolleyes:
I don't think he was "hoping" back and forth. A little hopping perhaps, but he was talking about "wishing" not "hoping".

[nbhs275]

Your DM must have forgotten about the XP cost of casting Wish, or the XP cost requirement when creating a scroll, wand or magic item that duplicates a spell with an XP cost.

Bare minimum, Wish costs at least 5k XP in PnP. That'll be at least 50k XP in DDO. That means casting Wish 5 times in succession costs, bare minimum, 25k XP in PnP, which is about a level and a half for an L17 wizard. Casting Wish 30 times (+5 to all attributes) would be 150k XP, which would take an wizard that just achieved L17 down to -14k XP (that's negative 14k).

I don't think it would be just "boom done" in PnP.



Grant a creature a +1 inherent bonus to an ability score. Two to five wish spells cast in immediate succession can grant a creature a +2 to +5 inherent bonus to an ability score (two wishes for a +2 inherent bonus, three for a +3 inherent bonus, and so on). Inherent bonuses are instantaneous, so they cannot be dispelled. Note: An inherent bonus may not exceed +5 for a single ability score, and inherent bonuses to a particular ability score do not stack, so only the best one applies.


XP Cost: The minimum XP cost for casting wish is 5,000 XP. When a wish duplicates a spell that has an XP cost, you must pay 5,000 XP or that cost, whichever is more. When a wish creates or improves a magic item, you must pay twice the normal XP cost for crafting or improving the item, plus an additional 5,000 XP.

25k XP is about a level and ahalf, but it also provides basically the best return to a caster for the one time investment. Remember, ANY time a caster crafts, and with many spells they end up using up xp. Which, also means they tend to level slower then their party members. But, considering that XP is basically limitless in DDO, i dont think you would find a single person unwilling to take 250,000 XP debt for a +5 bonus to one ability. Also, don't Forget in PnP there are about 1000 different ways to make revoltingly high ability scores, that all fall well within the rules.

Saying whether a DM would allow such a thing or not is fully beyond what the rules layout. Black and white, its possible.

So please, can we get back onto the original topic instead of you spouting off incorrect facts and opinions about PnP.

[DasLurch]

It would appear Seabiscut is being beat again.

Oh, now THAT is funny :)

Thank you for helping me finish off Monday with a smile.

[Alavatar]

25k XP is about a level and ahalf, but it also provides basically the best return to a caster for the one time investment. Remember, ANY time a caster crafts, and with many spells they end up using up xp. Which, also means they tend to level slower then their party members. But, considering that XP is basically limitless in DDO, i dont think you would find a single person unwilling to take 250,000 XP debt for a +5 bonus to one ability.

Which is why I doubt the Devs would code Wish into DDO as it exists in PnP.


Also, don't Forget in PnP there are about 1000 different ways to make revoltingly high ability scores, that all fall well within the rules.

That depends on if you are using non-core non-WotC supplements.


Saying whether a DM would allow such a thing or not is fully beyond what the rules layout. Black and white, its possible.

So please, can we get back onto the original topic instead of you spouting off incorrect facts and opinions about PnP.

I never said anything that was incorrect or opinion. You stated a dozen Wish scrolls. 12 Wish spells would require at least 60k XP in PnP which would bring a L20 wizard with 190k XP to 130k XP; effectively L16, 6k XP from L17. Except, you stated the Wizard would do that once they hit L17 which means that your DM was fudging some rules by allowing it to happen (i.e. even if you were 1 XP from L18 you would only be able to cast 3 Wish spells before loosing the ability to cast Wish).

As for the OP: I disagree. Complete list of Named Loot on every iteration of 20 completions, sure. But not a complete list of +3 tomes. They are just random items and should be treated as such.

[Riddikulus]

25k XP is about a level and ahalf, but it also provides basically the best return to a caster for the one time investment. Remember, ANY time a caster crafts, and with many spells they end up using up xp. Which, also means they tend to level slower then their party members. But, considering that XP is basically limitless in DDO, i dont think you would find a single person unwilling to take 250,000 XP debt for a +5 bonus to one ability.Which is why I doubt the Devs would code Wish into DDO as it exists in PnP.
Easy solution... casting Wish reduces your XP cap by an appropriate amount. Wish "abuse" problem solved.

[manfredshw]

we need full list loot granted after 20 40 60 80 100 done.
This is simple!

And this is ddo, and wow-lite.
I spent times on it, and I need my work payback.
DEV had adjusted the drop rate for those items which are mostly needed.
Like titan belt, titan glove, esp. the ring.
If we don't have the full list, you can hardly see them from the list. Because they have slim drop rate, but the other trash loots, i.e. necklace will easily be seen in your list. Check it out, I am saying the truth. They are not the same drop rate.

DEV always change the drop rate of every single named item in this game, end reward generate system for each module pubblished. and some chests are very easy to ransack. (ie: icy remeint chest)Due to lack of end-game content, and slow development. So they want us to grind, to spend the times on these popular items. And to argue the topics like op's. Then nobody will pay attentions on the slow development, and where is the weekly developpment thread?

Have you guys haven't find out yet?

Is this game so interesting as it is before? I double.
I don't get it why let raid item become easier to loot? named item too. There is +3 tome exist, so what will happen if everybody have +3tome on every single stat?

As for me, I like the old days. Items were easy to obtain, so I can roll and reroll, build and rebuild for every character I want to be.
As for today, I won't. Hard to find group when you lv8ish. And of course I need some items to make my toons become more powerful and better to fit in the group. But, very hard to obtain. If I start to roll a new build, what waiting for me ahead. Obviously, another grind ahead.

For turbine, they want us to grind, to spend mothly fee for the grind. So they decreasing everything. As for me, I am fed up with it.
what I am doing now, is to grind only once. Let my new rangers fully equiped. And for this, I have enough patient to grind whatever 20 40 60 80, or even 20000. Then I will stop grinding, no other new build, thank you turbine.

[Thrudh]

If you're following the D&D rules, you'd allow it to happen, because that's explicitly what the Wish spell rules say it does. That use of Wish is not subject to twisted interpretations. Furthermore, the costs of getting Wish cast for you are also listed in the rules.

LOL... Man, your DM was a dummy or no fun or both....

Your DM never twisted a wish??? That's the ONLY way to keep that power under control....

Once, we had been in a huge fight with fire giants and a small red dragon... the bad guys were all dead and pretty much the whole party was dead as well (Maybe two people were still alive). One of the guys pulled out his wish ring (only 1 wish... we'd been carrying it around for a while), and he said... "I wish everyone was alive and at full health again"...

We all shouted in despair, because we knew our DM...

The DM told us he briefly considered bringing back every living sentient creature that had ever lived... but decided that the wish ring wasn't powerful enough for that... Instead he brought the whole party back to life at full health...

.......

.......

.......

AND all the fire giants and the red dragon we just killed.

[KoboldKiller]

Are we still beating on this dead horse?

Why is it people feel anything in this game is deserved?

You play, you loot, you hope for a good pull and you have fun. Isn't that why we continue to play?

I still open every chest and every end reward list with great anticipation.

So what if you have ran a raid 100+ times and haven't gotten the precious tome you want, IT WILL NOT MAKE OR BREAK YOUR ALT, and if your planing builds around getting a +3 tome for a certain stat then you seriously need to re-think what your doing.

I will be running my 20th Reaver tomorrow. Now do I hope I get the +3 tome for a specific stat of course, am I going to complain if I don't get it, nope.

And don't start in with the "it's only your 20th try running it your 100th time" rhetoric because it doesn't matter. My alt will be fine with or without it and I have no intention of running a raid that many times in order to try and get a tome. When it is no longer fun for me then I will stop running it and who knows maybe I'll still like it 100 times who's to say?

But I will not now or in the future complain that I "deserve" a choice of what I want just because I have run it x amount of times.

Nothing is guaranteed whether it's a game or life itself, enjoy what you have while you have it and once it's gone move on and find something else to enjoy.




We return you to your regularly scheduled program "Beating a Dead Horse".

[Aldor]

Be sure to post back after 100 runs without a +3 tome :)

Could not resist the offer


Are we still beating on this dead horse?

Why is it people feel anything in this game is deserved?

You play, you loot, you hope for a good pull and you have fun. Isn't that why we continue to play?

I still open every chest and every end reward list with great anticipation.

So what if you have ran a raid 100+ times and haven't gotten the precious tome you want, IT WILL NOT MAKE OR BREAK YOUR ALT, and if your planing builds around getting a +3 tome for a certain stat then you seriously need to re-think what your doing.

I will be running my 20th Reaver tomorrow. Now do I hope I get the +3 tome for a specific stat of course, am I going to complain if I don't get it, nope.

And don't start in with the "it's only your 20th try running it your 100th time" rhetoric because it doesn't matter. My alt will be fine with or without it and I have no intention of running a raid that many times in order to try and get a tome. When it is no longer fun for me then I will stop running it and who knows maybe I'll still like it 100 times who's to say?

But I will not now or in the future complain that I "deserve" a choice of what I want just because I have run it x amount of times.

Nothing is guaranteed whether it's a game or life itself, enjoy what you have while you have it and once it's gone move on and find something else to enjoy.




We return you to your regularly scheduled program "Beating a Dead Horse".

[BlackSteel]

+3 tome or not, I cant bring myself to farm Reaver every 3 days, the quest is just too boring now

that quest has turned into a tome lottery, and I can only bring myself to do it while eating and need something with minimal effort besides browsing AH (which can actually be more intensive than reaver)

exception being new characters that are still looking for their first madstone, head, or napkin depending on build

[Soul-Shaker]

I just finished a 20th titan today and guess what reward list I get. No gloves, ring, robe, boots OR BELT. Next best item is a +2 int tome, though I have eaten one already.... Thats my luck neway with any looting.

I dont like the idea of a complete list and I dont like the idea of a complete list on a specific number of runs because they wont make it retroactive, which means those that have past it wont get the benefit. Instead I would like say garantee 1 tome of highest Level and maybe 2 more items added to the list every 20th run. So lets say one mission 20th list is 11, so 40th is 13, 60th 15, and on till list comes full. And I would like to see a Minimum Raid loot drop per run re-instated. I hate running titan 9-12 man where no matter what difficultly, the average raid loot is closer to .25 pieces of raid loot per run. Maybe I should put in a ticket though since most people that I know pull great when its not with me in group.

[Lehrman]

I just finished a 20th titan today and guess what reward list I get. No gloves, ring, robe, boots OR BELT. Next best item is a +2 int tome, though I have eaten one already.... Thats my luck neway with any looting.

I dont like the idea of a complete list and I dont like the idea of a complete list on a specific number of runs because they wont make it retroactive, which means those that have past it wont get the benefit. Instead I would like say garantee 1 tome of highest Level and maybe 2 more items added to the list every 20th run. So lets say one mission 20th list is 11, so 40th is 13, 60th 15, and on till list comes full. And I would like to see a Minimum Raid loot drop per run re-instated. I hate running titan 9-12 man where no matter what difficultly, the average raid loot is closer to .25 pieces of raid loot per run. Maybe I should put in a ticket though since most people that I know pull great when its not with me in group.

I pulled my chattering when u were there...granted we did it 16 times before that happened...

For 20th runs, I started setting my loot table to class specific and since then my 20ths have had a tome each time, but thats only 2/2 and not from reaver since I dont run reaver any more. Its too fricking repetative. The sad thing is that I still need some reaver gear on my bard, but I hate the quest too much to enter. Anyway, test out the loot based on class next time you hit a 20. If it works, then great, if not, then maybe u will at least remove some of the unwanted arcane, melee, or cleric junk from the list.

[seldarin]

If you're following the D&D rules, you'd allow it to happen, because that's explicitly what the Wish spell rules say it does. That use of Wish is not subject to twisted interpretations. Furthermore, the costs of getting Wish cast for you are also listed in the rules.

Angelus, IF i was following the D and D rules, which by the way are guidelines to be interpreted to fit your adventure, and i use them as such, then as a GM i have the absolute power to interpret the way a person words their wish spell. AND furthermore in the event that they are doing it for PERSONAL greed, then things become a bit more interesting. There is more to it than a simple flip of the wrist and stuff just appears. The wish spell is arguably one of, if not the most powerful spell in PnP and a poorly worded wish spell can have dire consequences. I know the cost is listed in the rules, if you read up you would see that i stated i have played PnP for a number of years so i think i would have a fair idea of what is in the rules, but thank you for pointing that out to me.

I would openly question the type of GM that you have had that would just allow wish spells to be cast all over the shop, let alone in the volume that the OP states would be needed to get the abilities where you want them. As a GM, i for one wouldnt allow it, UNLESS the player concerned kept the wording VERY tight and had a VERY, VERY good reason for it.

Factor in the xp cost involved as stated in another post and sorry mate, i dont know what planet you are on/from, but it just plain wouldnt happen as easily as the OP reckons it would. No doubt you will dispute that, thats your call, but i would suggest that you read the rules that you have quoted to me and do the math yourself.

Unlike your good self i use rules as guidelines and just because a 20 is supposedly always a pass and a 1 is always supposedly a fail, its not always the case, no doubt it is in your games and i feel sorry for you having GMs like that, or i feel sorry for your group if you were GMing it!

[Dexxaan]

LOL... Man, your DM was a dummy or no fun or both....

Your DM never twisted a wish??? That's the ONLY way to keep that power under control....

Once, we had been in a huge fight with fire giants and a small red dragon... the bad guys were all dead and pretty much the whole party was dead as well (Maybe two people were still alive). One of the guys pulled out his wish ring (only 1 wish... we'd been carrying it around for a while), and he said... "I wish everyone was alive and at full health again"...

We all shouted in despair, because we knew our DM...

The DM told us he briefly considered bringing back every living sentient creature that had ever lived... but decided that the wish ring wasn't powerful enough for that... Instead he brought the whole party back to life at full health...

.......

.......

.......

AND all the fire giants and the red dragon we just killed.


LMAO. Nice.

The word "RETREAT" comes to mind as soon as the wish was granted. :D

[nbhs275]

LOL... Man, your DM was a dummy or no fun or both....

Your DM never twisted a wish??? That's the ONLY way to keep that power under control....

Once, we had been in a huge fight with fire giants and a small red dragon... the bad guys were all dead and pretty much the whole party was dead as well (Maybe two people were still alive). One of the guys pulled out his wish ring (only 1 wish... we'd been carrying it around for a while), and he said... "I wish everyone was alive and at full health again"...

We all shouted in despair, because we knew our DM...

The DM told us he briefly considered bringing back every living sentient creature that had ever lived... but decided that the wish ring wasn't powerful enough for that... Instead he brought the whole party back to life at full health...

.......

.......

.......

AND all the fire giants and the red dragon we just killed.

Thats not twisting it, its just using the literal interpretation. Twisted commands usually happen with say..a djinni or efreet. I know when my lvl6 character found an efreeti bottle and managed to get him to cast me wishes, he was pretty ****ed. But when i asked for a powerful magical staff i got one...though it came with its owner..

[Thrudh]

But when i asked for a powerful magical staff i got one...though it came with its owner..

See, that's awesome... that's how you grant a wish...

I never played any high level campigns... wishes were very rare for us... Once though, we all got a wish with a genie.. The DM twisted each and every wish.. The last guy spent like 20 minutes coming up with a long involved wish trying to keep the DM from being able to twist it... he failed.

But it was fun!

"I wish for a turkey sandwich on rye bread with lettuce and mustard. And -- and I don't want any zombie turkeys, I don't want to turn into a turkey myself, and I don't want any other weird surprises -- you got it?" - Homer Simpson

[Hafeal]

If you're following the D&D rules, you'd allow it to happen, because that's explicitly what the Wish spell rules say it does. That use of Wish is not subject to twisted interpretations. Furthermore, the costs of getting Wish cast for you are also listed in the rules.

Careful what you wish for ... you might get it! There is not a DM I am aware of that won't interpret your wish much differently than you expect ... as several of the stories showed.

Thrudh's story was great! :)


LOL... Man, your DM was a dummy or no fun or both....

Your DM never twisted a wish??? That's the ONLY way to keep that power under control....

Once, we had been in a huge fight with fire giants and a small red dragon... the bad guys were all dead and pretty much the whole party was dead as well (Maybe two people were still alive). One of the guys pulled out his wish ring (only 1 wish... we'd been carrying it around for a while), and he said... "I wish everyone was alive and at full health again"...

We all shouted in despair, because we knew our DM...

The DM told us he briefly considered bringing back every living sentient creature that had ever lived... but decided that the wish ring wasn't powerful enough for that... Instead he brought the whole party back to life at full health...

.......

.......

.......

AND all the fire giants and the red dragon we just killed.

[Torilin]

I agree it's frustrating. But the problem is that if we KNEW we'd get a complete loot list we'd just keep grinding until every capped character on the server had +3 in every stat, further widening gap between the regular and casual gamers, making it even harder to balance content.

So, while I understand your frustrations:

/not signed

Ha funny I believe doing a raid 240 times is grinding what the OP is talking about is the fact that he has to keep doing the same old boring content over and over again only to be saddened and not rewarded when he has acomplished something like 240 reaver raids.

[Shagn]

"I wish for a turkey sandwich on rye bread with lettuce and mustard. And -- and I don't want any zombie turkeys, I don't want to turn into a turkey myself, and I don't want any other weird surprises -- you got it?" - Homer Simpson

best Homer Simpson quote. ever.

[QuantumFX]

I agree it's frustrating. But the problem is that if we KNEW we'd get a complete loot list we'd just keep grinding until every capped character on the server had +3 in every stat, further widening gap between the regular and casual gamers, making it even harder to balance content.

So, while I understand your frustrations:

/not signed

You realize that there are 4 completable, non reflag required, quests that can drop +3 tomes right? This would mean even the most casual player would be assured 4 +3 tomes between modules if this were implemented.

[Dexxaan]

Ha funny I believe doing a raid 240 times is grinding what the OP is talking about is the fact that he has to keep doing the same old boring content over and over again only to be saddened and not rewarded when he has acomplished something like 240 reaver raids.

Seabiscuit is taking a beating!!!

Torilin I see it like this..... Not a single DDO player has a Right to a +3 Tome, (or W/P Rapier for that matter :rolleyes:)....plain and simple...

Therefore it makes no sense to expect getting one when it´s an actual random loot drop....whereas the named loot drops as a DIRECT result of that Quest/Raid environment....(You´ll never get Madstone Boots out of the Titan...right?)

I´d suggest the complete list be available at the 20/40/60 if that´s gonna make the "**** luck non Guild assisted" players stop whining.

And regarding the Grind....spare me...Reaver is nothing more than a 3 man Loot Run, that requires 12 to have a decent chance of anything dropping.....not a grind when you have to a) heal a Tank, or b) Tank Giant or c) Cast DiscoBalls and an occasional FOD. :eek: oh and all this takes 12-15 Min....

[Thrudh]

You realize that there are 4 completable, non reflag required, quests that can drop +3 tomes right? This would mean even the most casual player would be assured 4 +3 tomes between modules if this were implemented.

heh, you have a strange definition of the word casual...

I am a borderline power-gamer (5 capped characters, all have raid loot, Shroud items, etc. - I average at least 20 hours a week of playing... I've been playing since May 2006)

All five of my capped characters have done the Reaver 20 times, one has done it 40 times.
Three of my characters have completed the Shroud 20 times (one guy got 4 +3 tomes, one got 1 +3 tome, one got zero +3 tomes)

NONE of my characters have done any of the other raids 20 times...

I have 15 titan completions on one guy (hoping for the chattering ring at 20)
14 and 15 DQ completions on two guys.

All other raids have been done 1-3 times by each character.

[redoubt]

I run the reaver for one reason only. +3 tomes.

After 55+ runs I have the head, treason and the bracers. Nothing else in there is useful to my rogue ranger.

When I built this character two years ago I planned on the uber +5 item and a +2 favor tome for dex. Now it is possible to go two better than that. Why not push for 36 dex instead of 35.

If not for the massive nerf to AC that has happened lately I really wouldn't care. I can hit almost with missing if I stand still, so that is not an issue. But as a chaotic character I immediately fell 5-7 AC points behind everyone who made a monk. So every darn point of AC matters and that silly tome will get me 1 closer.

Run 58 (or so, I've lost track) is tonight...

P.S. I hold my own pretty well, but like many I strive to be better. It is just frustrating that the "best" way to do it is to grind the reaver. I don't even run it on any of my other characters because its not worth the effort just to rearrange my enhancements. The only reason I still try and "hope" on this one character is because it would hit a new even number. Also, since the +6 items have come out, a +3 con would get me a new even number (which would be nice, since two years ago you didn't need 300+ hp to be welcome in a group.)

[Thrudh]

FYI

Grinding the reaver for a +3 tome is NOT the best way to get a +3 tome...

Do the Shroud instead... At your 20th, you see 6 tomes, and there's a decent chance that several will be +3... One of my characters got offered 4 +3 tomes and I had to choose...

However, one got zero +3 tomes, so that's possible too... BUT he got his pick of +2 tomes... AND running the Shroud gets you ingrediants, while running the Reaver gets you nothing (maybe a little cash, although selling ingrediants makes you a LOT more cash if that is what you're after)

[Stormanne]

Well, here's one that'll really get your cackles up. Ran Reaver last night, pretty standard run. Three members of the group are first timers. All three get a tome, two get a plus two tome, and the bard gets a plus three......

I, myself, haven't even gotten a plus one outta the reaver yet....and have ran it to the point on toon characters that I don't even get XP anymore(not sure how many total runs, but haven't gotten XP on the Reaver in more than six months...)

[Dexxaan]

What´s next?

I need a W/P Rapier...and should get one for every 20 RWTDevils on Elite??

Cmon guys drop the Tomes discussion.

If you want named loot go for it...Lady luck may or may not grant you a +3 Tome....deal with it.

If you work for it...you are increasing your chances of getting one....simple really.

[Riddikulus]

What´s next?

I need a W/P Rapier...and should get one for every 20 RWTDevils on Elite??

Cmon guys drop the Tomes discussion.

If you want named loot go for it...Lady luck may or may not grant you a +3 Tome....deal with it.

If you work for it...you are increasing your chances of getting one....simple really.
IMO it is just insane that people are grinding raids over and over again in the hopes of pulling +3 tomes, and this "special" every 20 list just makes it worse.

Again, I think they should just put +2 and +3 tomes in all level appropriate chests, not just the raid chests. Then people won't have to grind the same two or three raids over and over again (no it's absolutely not "work for it"... it's simply "grind, grind and more grind").

Wouldn't it be nice if they can actually go do other stuff without feeling like they are missing out on a chance to pull those tomes?

[Torilin]

If you work for it...you are increasing your chances of getting one....simple really.

Well Dexx for me its not just +3 tomes why should anyone have to grind out 100's of raids to get the equipment and items they want. There is one simple explanation, Turbine cant offer us enough content so they find a way to make us grind and grind and grind even though this game is not about the grind, and leave the reaver out of it, cause I like many just run this for the chance at +3 tomes.

Im now talking about titan and the belt or visions and both sets of bracers or hounds for the shields. Thats right ive run these quest over and over again for this loot but instead i get 60+ bard cloaks in 50+ visions runs.

Im also curious how a lvl 14 quest, lvl 16 on elite drops +3 tomes out of the end chest but lvl 18, (lvl 20 on elite) dont drop them at all. Just trying to hold the man down i guess.

[nbhs275]

IMO it is just insane that people are grinding raids over and over again in the hopes of pulling +3 tomes, and this "special" every 20 list just makes it worse.

Again, I think they should just put +2 and +3 tomes in all level appropriate chests, not just the raid chests. Then people won't have to grind the same two or three raids over and over again (no it's absolutely not "work for it"... it's simply "grind, grind and more grind").

Wouldn't it be nice if they can actually go do other stuff without feeling like they are missing out on a chance to pull those tomes?

There is a difference between W/P rapiers and +3 tomes. One can drop in basically any quest over level 10, where the other only comes from 3-4 possible sources. And the one that only comes from 3-4 sources is also bound...making it isnt a mobile item that could say be used on 3-4 different characters, then sold for 2-3 mil plat.

[Raiderone]

Get rid of it I say. No +3 tome at all. Unbalances the game period.
All tomes unbalance the game. All enhancement bonus stats unbalance the game.
Get rid of them too. Just leave the +1 tome and the one time +2 tome for favor.

Epic feats for stats are okay. No higher than +6 stat for any item too (crafted
or not).

DDO is unbalancing the game to the point that it's no longer D&D, but a variation
of other high stat games.:p:p

[dsp]

I got booted from vision of destruction because of the stupid lag this game is lousy with, instead of changing quests so that nobody runs them anymore cause they are stupid money and equipment pits "Abbot". Fix the game, it has more bugs than a third world nation. You call a gamemaster not that it matters if they are senior or not, they're too busy telling you that they can't do anything to help...put you back in a quest while your whole party is still in it. Give them some abilities to help or get them gone. the 30% off the top in the AH is just thievery thats why people sell directly or go to plat farmers, let's try actually fixing something during the next fix.

[Riddikulus]

There is a difference between W/P rapiers and +3 tomes. One can drop in basically any quest over level 10, where the other only comes from 3-4 possible sources. And the one that only comes from 3-4 sources is also bound...making it isnt a mobile item that could say be used on 3-4 different characters, then sold for 2-3 mil plat.
There's no reason you couldn't make them bind from regular chests.

My point is that it isn't healthy for the game to have a large chunk of it's high level population just running the same 3-4 quests repeatedly in the hopes of getting +2 or +3 tomes. That's just a recipe for burnout. Put those tomes (at no higher of a drop rate of course) in all chests of the appropriate level and then people won't be tied to just those raids.

[QuantumFX]

heh, you have a strange definition of the word casual...

You'll notice I mentioned 4 raids. (Reaver, Shroud, VoD and Hound) 2 of which are "flag and forget" and 2 that are "no flag required". Run each once a week for 20 weeks. Nowadays you're talking 3 hours playtime for all 4 raids. That's a friday evening.

If the "full list" option were in play then they would have access to at least 4 +3 stat tomes.

[Thrudh]

You'll notice I mentioned 4 raids. (Reaver, Shroud, VoD and Hound) 2 of which are "flag and forget" and 2 that are "no flag required". Run each once a week for 20 weeks. Nowadays you're talking 3 hours playtime for all 4 raids. That's a friday evening.
If the "full list" option were in play then they would have access to at least 4 +3 stat tomes.

[emphasis mine]

Let me rephrase... you have an INSANE definition of "casual" if you think a casual gamer is going to run all 4 raids in THREE hours.

Now you're right that they might be able to do all four raids over the week... but that's probably 3 full nights... Reaver is only raid that is quick and easy for the casual gamer....

I still see plenty of Shroud PUG runs that take 90 minutes to complete, not counting the time it takes to get a group together... Hound runs still fail in PUGs... although it can be quick... leaving time for a casual gamer to do another quest the same night if they're lucky enough to find a good group... As for VoD runs, I don't see very many of those up...

If a casual gamer is playing 3-4 nights a week, he/she is NOT going to enjoy doing NOTHING but repeating the same raids over and over....

Anyhow, I'm ONLY for a full list of raid items... Not tomes... those should remain rare...

(By the way... you insane grinders... you know someday they'll have +4 and probably +5 tomes... and all these hours of grinding will have been totally wasted...)