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JetEskimo
09-02-2008, 02:50 PM
Yes, my bard "problem" continues. Thanks to all for the CC bard tips on my earlier thread (dropped TWF, kept WeapFin but might drop it out later on). He has been a blast to play so far. Anyway, on to my next fascination, the feasibility of a TWF Rogue Warchanter.

It seems like you could cap out a warchanter bard at level 8 w/o losing too much. You'd lose +1 attack, +2 damage from not hitting the Improved Inspire Courage at 14, another +1 attack/damage from the Inspire III enhancements (although attack seems super spendy anyway), and access to level 4-6 buff spells (freedom of movement, greater heroism, and... what else is there?).

In exchange for those things, you could be a capable trapsmith, add up to 3d6 of sneak attack damage to your attacks, uncanny dodge and evasion for survivability, rogue sneak attack training enhancements, etc.

Right now I'm thinking of a Drow Bard 8, Rogue 6, Fighter 2 TWF finesse build. The feats would be TWF, ITWF, GTWF, Weapon Finesse, Power Attack, WF: Pierce and IC: Pierce. Enhancements would be Inspire attack/damage II, Sneak attack/damage II, Drow melee attack/damage II, Warchanter, Rogue/Drow Dex II, and some other enhancements to round things out.

On the surface it seems like this build could be a fairly impressive DPS machine will still providing some other worthwhile functions to the party. Wondering if anyone else has already gone this route or had thoughts on the concept.

Cheers!

Aeneas
09-02-2008, 02:55 PM
blah, misread.

Talon_Moonshadow
09-02-2008, 03:08 PM
Not sure if this helps.

I have a Rgr7/Rog4/Wiz5 that is a pretty good trap monkey.
But honestly, I barely use those skills anymore. So little, I almost wish I hadn't gone the splash rogue route.

I also have a Pal14/Rog2 that has not put any skill points into rogue skills since lvl 2, and recently redid his enhancements and got rid of all his trap skill enhancements......
And he can still do traps in lvl 12 normal quests with self buffing. Granted it takes a lot of self buffing, but he's basically a lvl 2 rogue with lvl 11/13 items and resources....and he still pulls it off.

So.....it really is all up to you how much you want to devote to rogue skills.

they are nice.....but there are plenty of other trap monkeys out there, if it is not your thing.

CSFurious
09-02-2008, 03:37 PM
plenty of good rogues are around

plenty of good bards are around

i do not need to group with a bard/rogue hybrid because i would rather group with both a good rogue & a good bard instead of a hybrid like this

i would pick either rogue or bard & then play one to current cap

later

maddmatt70
09-02-2008, 04:22 PM
plenty of good rogues are around

plenty of good bards are around

i do not need to group with a bard/rogue hybrid because i would rather group with both a good rogue & a good bard instead of a hybrid like this

i would pick either rogue or bard & then play one to current cap

later

CS Furious is correct especially since 3 raids so dominant the end game. With 6 people quests these hybrid multiclass builds are more effective, but in 12 person raids not so much.

Edit: You would get more out of a 2 rogue 14 bard halfling or even drow build by the way. It would have max songs and could do all the traps, yet still be very effective with melee combat..

Freeman
09-02-2008, 05:11 PM
It seems like you could cap out a warchanter bard at level 8 w/o losing too much. You'd lose +1 attack, +2 damage from not hitting the Improved Inspire Courage at 14, another +1 attack/damage from the Inspire III enhancements (although attack seems super spendy anyway), and access to level 4-6 buff spells (freedom of movement, greater heroism, and... what else is there?).

Well, there's the Inspire Greatness song at level 9, so you are losing +2 attack and +1 Fort saves, as well as a few bonus HP there. You also won't get Inspire Heroics, but many multi-class bards forgo that. Since you don't have Extend, your most valuable buff spells, Haste and Displacement, will barely be any longer than the scrolls/potions. You'll have to use scrolls for GH, and I don't think you can even get FoM on a scroll.

To me, the biggest problem is what are you actually contributing that a 14/2 or 15/1 bard/rogue couldn't do as well or better beyond a little extra sneak attack damage? While you may personally do a little more damage, the entire party's overall damage will likely drop due to the weaker bard buffs. It just seems like you've spread everything to thin on this character, weakening it on too many fronts. I'm curious how you would even allocate your stat points on your proposed build.

JetEskimo
09-02-2008, 06:06 PM
Just toying around with the idea at this point, looking at feats and enhancements. Folks are often caught bragging about the DPS capabilities of their split-classed bards, and I figured rogue was a good DPS class, so why not try it? As long as your snagging some rogue for DPS, you might as well grab the OL/DD/Search skills as well. Seemed to make sense at the time.

Obviously this build wouldn't do as well as pure DPS or bard buff builds, that was never really the point. More for smaller groups or random PUGs where the party might not have the ideal combination of classes.

Of course, with how common it is to come across rogue-splashed characters, there might not be many situations where those components are what the party is lacking. I just happened to come across a couple of late-night PUGs where we were lacking a rogue and it got the brain-a-whirring.

Besides, I enjoy thinking about the mechanics of builds rather than just picking one off the forums and running with it, and asking the odd question like this one is how you learn more about the ways of the game.

Cheers!

skraus1
09-03-2008, 01:26 AM
Look at my Zhaffini build linked in my sig for a similar concept that is str based. I would recommend at least 10 bard at current cap. One thing the other posters are not acknowledging is that feats are very very tight in this sort of build, with finesse simply making it worse (which is one of the many reasons I avoid finesse builds).
For example, Zhaffini's feat progession looks like:
1: Toughness
2(Fighter): WF: slashing
3: power attack
6: Twfing
9: ITWFing
11(Fighter): IC: Slashing
12 Extend or IC pierce or OTWF
15: GTWF

GTWFing adds two swings, so it is a must in my view for a true dps-focused twfer. Only a bard 15 or a bard/melee class combo will have the bab 11 at level 15 to take this feat at current cap. So no, a bard 14/rogue 2 cannot have the same dps as a bard 14/rogue1/fighter1....assuming that fighter level is taken when bab is 11 or higher.

On a side note, a warchanter 10 adds the same song damage as a normal bard 16, but of course is 2 less than a warchanter 14. This build also frees up a slot because there is no need for a rogue, virtually ever with this build. It is also another respectable melee combattant.

Like many builds however it is not the ideal build in every situation, but it is always a respectable build in any situation. It is ideal in situations where it can fight itself, and you could use both a rogue and more melee up front.

JetEskimo
09-03-2008, 12:55 PM
Lot of good info here to help me work this out a bit more. Dropping WeapFin and going more str-based would allow me to take extend and help out my buffs. Taking a few less levels of rogue will also give me more SP, access to Inspire Greatness, and longer buffs w/o really affecting my ability to work the traps.

Trying to decide if going 10/4/2 or 12/3/1 (bard/rogue/fighter) makes more sense. Having Uncanny dodge and an extra feat to snag toughness would certainly make him a little more viable in melee. As a result I'd lose about 50 spell points, a fourth level spell, access to the last damage enhancement, and take a hit to my buff spell duration. Anything else I'm missing in this trade off?

Thanks again all.