Glitterdust, Web and Aggro

[Teran]

New sorc here (as well as being newly back to the game).

I'm struggling a bit with aggro with my level 6 sorc, and am looking for advice.

I use Glitterdust and Web to help parties, but generally find that when I do this I become an aggro magnet for all the mobs that I'm trying to CC, and become somewhat of a heal sponge (which I feel is bad). For example, due to the 4 second cast + effect time, I'll pre-cast Glitterdust into a room where lots of undead are going to spawn, and throw down a few webs to slow down the mob's approach. Then we enter the room and undead spawn, which proceed to all come after me (invariably some don't get stuck in webs or break free).

I'm starting to feel like I'd be better off just blasting some maximized fireballs off because at least that way mobs will be dead instead of chasing me around the room (I jump through webs to try and get mobs caught up again).

Anyone have any recommendations / strategies? I don't stealth as I've no skills there, but if I stealth after casting glitterdust and the webs (but before mobs spawn) would that help? What about casting invisibility (which I wouldn't think would help protect me from blind mobs but *shrug*)?


Regards,
Teran

[hydra_ex]

Are you the first in the room, usually the undead will agro to the first thing they see (ie you). If a tank is closer to them, their AI will probably dictate them attacking the tanks instead of you, being an extension of the web. Also, due to the short casting time of web, I would reccomend casting gliterdust and webbing mobs one agro is firmly established in one place, which fixes another CCer problem - tanks not using your much beloved webs :)

[Teran]

I'm never the first physically in a room / closest to spawn points, and pretty much see this happening even if I just use Glitterdust. I'm told that both Glitterdust and Web both cause aggro on the caster though, which certainly explains what I've been experiencing.

Regarding Web: Leaving web until later helps a little bit. Though if I just wait until someone gets aggro (non-intimidate) but the mobs haven't been hit yet, then casting web on them causes them all to aggro me. Frankly if I wait until all the mobs have been hit once or twice to cast web (so that they don't aggro on me) then the mobs are half-way or more dead anyway, in which case it would seem like a fireball would be more effective (death being the best CC ;-) ). Web of course still is useful given it's fast cast (and doorways and the like), so I'll just change my usage of the spell if there's no effective way to pre-cast it.

If I just limit this to the Glitterdust spell and ignore Web usage: Not casting Glitterdust before a battle avoids aggro, but then there's rarely value to the spell given it's 4 second cast / effect time and how quickly mobs die at my level. Perhaps mobs last a long longer at higher levels? If I really should only cast it after folks firmly have aggro, then given my limited spell slots, gameplay at my level, and how infrequently I'd be able to use it, I'll just swap it out.

I like Glitterdust and think that blindness is helpful, so if there's some trick to better using it I'd love to hear it.

[Merkinsal]

I have found alot of spell selection has to do with the group. How fast they are moving. What tactics they are using, How much damage they are taking.

Having said that, I think there are better level two spells than glitterdust. I carry web, false life, resists, and scorching ray. I am continually asked for blur. The only spell in that list I could possibly swap our would be false life. I haven't seen wands to buy for that, haven't really looked, although they drop from time to time. Resists are too important for survival to drop and I would also dislike having to ask for them because the clerics have better uses for sp. Web of course is too good a cc spell thru end game and scorching ray is the single best damage spell in the game, if you are specced for fire. In any case, glitterdust is no better than 6th on my list.

On the other hand, the tanks should be aware of any agro you are getting and work to take that away from you.. They should be using intimidate and other tactics. You will find more and more in higher levels that the melee use all their skills rather than just run in and start swinging.

[Impaqt]

Stoneskin
Blur
Displacement
Rage
jump
haste
Elemental Resists

All of these help mitigate any damage you may take Learn to use them efectively.

ANd Stay BEHIND the heavy tanks.

[NullWolf]

I use Glitterdust on my level 5 Acid-Lightning Necromancer all the time. (It's about the only CC spell he carries [on a regular basis].)
Pre-cast it, then step back. If the Tanks / DPSers are doing their part, as soon as anything pops up, they should take a whack and cause at least some damage (if they're not intimidating) to take the agro.

Also, if the mob can be intimidated, it SHOULD be Intimidated. That or the tanks you're running with need to learn to grab agro by other means than just being the first to be seen.

Now, on my level 10 Fire-Ice Sorcerer, the only CC I carry right now is Web (which I use Heightened) and of course the ultimate CC: Max / Empowered Firewall / Cone of Cold etc... :D (Kidding, will be creating a straight CC Sorc or Wizard next.)


Stoneskin
Blur
Displacement
Rage
jump
haste
Elemental Resists

All of these help mitigate any damage you may take Learn to use them efectively.

ANd Stay BEHIND the heavy tanks.

That looks about like my Sorcs spell list lol...
Except I don't carry Blur, Rage or Displacement... and only carry Stoneskin on scrolls (depending on the quest I'll shell out the plat for enough scrolls to hit everyone usually twice - mainly for the really heavy fights). Haste is a constant, and if they don't gather for it, tough luck... And Jump is exceptional for moving out of the way... Jump over mobs and drag them back to the tanks if you absolutely have to. If they're still after you cause you got a lame tank, take them to the rogue, then to the cleric if they're still attached to you... At some point, someone will take the aggro, and if not, run, jump and cast (work on becoming a hopping death-sorc).

[Samadhi]

New sorc here (as well as being newly back to the game).

I'm struggling a bit with aggro with my level 6 sorc, and am looking for advice.

I use Glitterdust and Web to help parties, but generally find that when I do this I become an aggro magnet for all the mobs that I'm trying to CC, and become somewhat of a heal sponge (which I feel is bad). For example, due to the 4 second cast + effect time, I'll pre-cast Glitterdust into a room where lots of undead are going to spawn, and throw down a few webs to slow down the mob's approach. Then we enter the room and undead spawn, which proceed to all come after me (invariably some don't get stuck in webs or break free).

I'm starting to feel like I'd be better off just blasting some maximized fireballs off because at least that way mobs will be dead instead of chasing me around the room (I jump through webs to try and get mobs caught up again).

Anyone have any recommendations / strategies? I don't stealth as I've no skills there, but if I stealth after casting glitterdust and the webs (but before mobs spawn) would that help? What about casting invisibility (which I wouldn't think would help protect me from blind mobs but *shrug*)?


Regards,
Teran

Sneaking and invisibility work great BEFORE you cast any spells, but web drawing aggro is something they added a while back that you will just have to get used to and hiding won't protect against unless you are very practiced at it. There are a couple ways to handle this:

Diplomacy: Instant aggro dropping skill. Although, if the mob drops aggro and runs back into the web, he may just turn and go right back to you.

Jump! : Hit yourself with jump and bounce around like you're in a pinball machine. I more recommend this for when the fighters are busy elsewhere and won't be able to pull aggro off you for a bit. With web specifically, make sure your bouncing is going in a circle around the web'd area so the mob gets restuck, ideally. (Sounds like you are already doing this which is good).

Tower shield: Whip one out, put your back to the wall, and block. High blocking DR is effective at nearly all levels of the game, and provides the added benefit of making it easy for fighters to pull the aggro off you. Know your mobs, though, because it won't help you against those spamming searing light.

There are ways to disappear in plain sight, as it were, with invis and high sneak - but they are not the easiest out there.

[Taente]

At that level I recall my groups fighting in the doorway, rather than in the room proper - allows you to web the door to stop mobs coming through; as well as dropping any AE CC beyond the doorway, and they can't get to you

If your group won't fight in the doorway, I'd not bother with the CC spells as tanks will be scattered & likely not in a position to help you with aggro

T

[Laith]

At that level I recall my groups fighting in the doorway, rather than in the room proper - allows you to web the door to stop mobs coming through; as well as dropping any AE CC beyond the doorway, and they can't get to youyep, wasting a mob's time IS cc.

a target doesn't have to be webbed, dancing, or otherwise to be rendered ineffective.
a mob that can't reach his target is a mob that's not swinging.

[Merkinsal]

.. and only carry Stoneskin on scrolls (depending on the quest I'll shell out the plat for enough scrolls to hit everyone usually twice - mainly for the really heavy fights).

Wands of Stoneskin are available in the Twelve, on the way to the Vale. The vendor next to the Auctioneer if I remember correctly.

[Merkinsal]

At that level I recall my groups fighting in the doorway, rather than in the room proper - allows you to web the door to stop mobs coming through; as well as dropping any AE CC beyond the doorway, and they can't get to you

If your group won't fight in the doorway, I'd not bother with the CC spells as tanks will be scattered & likely not in a position to help you with aggro

T

I would still use CC because CC is better than nothing if you happen to be fighting in the middle of the room. You will be getting agro no matter what you do. CC will allow you to lose the mobs and tie them up so the melee do not become overwhelmed. As already mentioned, you will become good at evasion and there are many techinques. No to get too far off the point of your post, but I use jump with feather fall and haste to jump long distances over many mobs and my CC. Haste was actually my first level three spell. The heck with what the melee want lol, I cast haste to move fast myself. Run, jump, and cast web (in the air it will not slow your speed).

[richieelias27]

Any aggro you get from web is extremely easy to get rid of. One whack from anyone else and you're forgotten completely. The only situation where web aggro would be a problem is if you're in a group full of healbots that came to the fight without weapons and nobody is hitting anything.

Stealthing after getting aggro wont help you any, they can still see you.

Casting invis will help, but they will still come after you (they will attack randomly and forget about you eventually. easy to avoid them)

Heighten your webs. Always. If you do not have heighten, dont bother casting web.

And to reiterate what others have said: Haste (or even expedious retreat) and jump alone do wonders for damage avoidance.

If you get aggro do not run around in circles like a chicken with its head cut off. Run to the closest melee type that you know can hit things reliably and try to get the mob to run past his weapon. Run back and forth kiting the mob into him like he's your own personal Firewall if necessary, or stand on top of him and block.

I also always web before the encounter, or in front of the mobs as there is a delay if you cast it right on top of something, wheras they get webbed instantly on entering it.

Glitterdust however, is usually best used after the main tank has intimidated/cleaved (your tank "does" have some sort of aoe aggro gathering tool right?) and everything is bunched up around him/her. And of course dont even bother with any sort of CC if its an encounter that will be over in seconds anyway. Thats just wasted mana.

[NullWolf]

Wands of Stoneskin are available in the Twelve, on the way to the Vale. The vendor next to the Auctioneer if I remember correctly.

Thanks, haven't been over there yet, I'll have to check pricing and save up for one

[Taente]

I would still use CC because CC is better than nothing if you happen to be fighting in the middle of the room. You will be getting agro no matter what you do. CC will allow you to lose the mobs and tie them up so the melee do not become overwhelmed. As already mentioned, you will become good at evasion and there are many techinques. No to get too far off the point of your post, but I use jump with feather fall and haste to jump long distances over many mobs and my CC. Haste was actually my first level three spell. The heck with what the melee want lol, I cast haste to move fast myself. Run, jump, and cast web (in the air it will not slow your speed).


You can still CC in the doorway scenario, but it's done from behind a wall of meat - with the door acting as a funnel. If you end up in the middle of a room, you web the tanks target and kite other mobs through it (or play the aforementioned avoidance techniques).

Also, if the tank is not engaged, don't run - it's easier for him to pull a mob off you if you stand beside him (running usually means a -4 TH, makes intimidate harder to time (mobs moving away from the tank) and the tank will waste time swinging while out of range. If the tank is engaged, then it's time for avoidance/dmg reduction

T

[GrayOldDruid]

Part of the OP's problem is caused by the stupid aggo in DDO.

Try this: Get Camo, put on a Move Silent booster item, then casting a Magic Missile around a corner onto one monster. Go back around the corner real quick, cast invisibility and move around another corner.

Result: The one mob hit, plus all his buddies will come directly to you and attack. No 'where did he go, George' no looking for the source, just straightest path to you and swing. Invisible, Sneaking, no-way-in-hades they could have ever seen you, doesn't matter. You hit them, they know where you live and the fastest way to get there.

Stealth is not an option in DDO.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

You're at a difficult lvl for mages.
You do draw more agro than many other chars, and you have few buffs to help you out.

But as you get "older' :) start casting more and more buffs on yourself and you will not be very squishy.
Plus the tanks will start drawing more agro as they get more powerful, and this should change for you soon.

Someone above mentioned a lot of specific buffs.
Good advice.

Let me add one word:

Fearsome!

it even works in high end content.
Although, I seldom use it now that I have every extended buff in the game as a standard.
And I know longer fear agro.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Part of the OP's problem is caused by the stupid aggo in DDO.

Try this: Get Camo, put on a Move Silent booster item, then casting a Magic Missile around a corner onto one monster. Go back around the corner real quick, cast invisibility and move around another corner.

Result: The one mob hit, plus all his buddies will come directly to you and attack. No 'where did he go, George' no looking for the source, just straightest path to you and swing. Invisible, Sneaking, no-way-in-hades they could have ever seen you, doesn't matter. You hit them, they know where you live and the fastest way to get there.

Stealth is not an option in DDO.

LOL...
So true. :(

[MrWizard]

halt undead scrolls help a lot..
command undead spell works wonders.

Do not throw up the cc before you spawn mobs, that is a big mistake.
Let the door open or the mobs spawn. They should aggro on who they see first like the fighters in the door or in the area..
As soon as they aggro, then add the non damaging crowd control.

FOr non humans I like hypno as they all stop and cannot aggro on me
halt undead scrolls until spell can be cast work fine at that level to 'hypno' undead and not gain aggro.

Wait til mobs start battle and then web

Grabbing aggro first is useful if you are setting it up tactically. But you should be prepared for it if you are gonna do it.


Just my 2 cents..
..

[Sue_Dark]

Part of the OP's problem is caused by the stupid aggo in DDO.

Try this: Get Camo, put on a Move Silent booster item, then casting a Magic Missile around a corner onto one monster. Go back around the corner real quick, cast invisibility and move around another corner.

Result: The one mob hit, plus all his buddies will come directly to you and attack. No 'where did he go, George' no looking for the source, just straightest path to you and swing. Invisible, Sneaking, no-way-in-hades they could have ever seen you, doesn't matter. You hit them, they know where you live and the fastest way to get there.

Stealth is not an option in DDO.

Stealth actually IS an option, it's just that alot of players dont do anything with it for their leveling. It falls way way behind the power curve and then people think it's useless. Check out some of the info from MrCow and Ghoste. Great stuff there.

Am I saying that you can stealth after attacking a pack and get away reliably, it really depends on the skills here. Is it possible? I dont bother trying, Sneak into range, agro, kill. Or soloing on arcane, sneak into range, charm, fall back to previously prep'd area, where CK and FW await.

Sneaky attacks are greatly aided by summons and charms :) I've been practicing all weekend and loving every second of it. Thanks Ghoste and MrCow!

[richieelias27]

Yes invisibility does nothing... IF YOU STAND STILL.

Try this: get a bunch of things attention. Cast invisibility. now run and jump around.

Notice how things are running after you but stopping to randomly attack the air and occasionally run in different directions? That is them looking for you. They can hear you but cant see you. You have to keep moving if you want to gain any benefit from invisibility whatsoever. They will always run to the spot where they last heard you and attack that spot, if you're still there, then yes they wll hit you.

Its not that invisibility isnt working, its that you arent using it right. I've used it plenty to get mobs to wander randomly in one area while running to another spot far away tp heal/rebuff etc before blasting them again.

Also attacking or being hit drops invis.

Can you cast invisibility and lose a pack of mobs? Not unless you have high move silently. Can you go invis to buy yourself some breathing room and get something off your butt for a little while? Absolutely.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Stealth actually IS an option, it's just that alot of players dont do anything with it for their leveling. It falls way way behind the power curve and then people think it's useless. Check out some of the info from MrCow and Ghoste. Great stuff there.

Am I saying that you can stealth after attacking a pack and get away reliably, it really depends on the skills here. Is it possible? I dont bother trying, Sneak into range, agro, kill. Or soloing on arcane, sneak into range, charm, fall back to previously prep'd area, where CK and FW await.

Sneaky attacks are greatly aided by summons and charms :) I've been practicing all weekend and loving every second of it. Thanks Ghoste and MrCow!

Despite my previous laughter, this is very true.
Stealth does work, and is underestimated/used.

You just can't use stealth and damage together.......or run and hide after they gain their ESP magical knowledge of where you are, your address and next of kin...etc.

Invisibility is still very good at keeping you from getting hurt.
And stealth and non-damaging spells can make you a great assassin. (Note: FOD is not a non-damaging spell)

[MrCow]

You just can't use stealth and damage together

Actually, you can if you have an escape plan nearby (such as leaping off a ledge or using a dimension door). Use stealth to setup, do your offensive, and then escape. The moment you get more than 200 feet from a monster they will stop chasing you (providing they don't tether).

[Teran]

This was very helpful - thanks all!

[ShaeNightbird]

My wizard uses the cast on the doorway strategy, both glitterdust, and web. Then I move as far back as possible, make sure my shielding is as good as it can get, and MM or Melfs from somewhere else. But I make sure I tell the party that's what I'm doing, before we get started so they know that fighting there will prevent the mage from becoming the cleric's worst enemy. Oh, and I cast haste after I've cast both of the other ones, so people are more likely to wait until the first spells land and I get out of the way as much as I can before they start swinging. ;) Because I know those mobs already hate me. And they do know where I live.

[Taente]

Oh, and I cast haste after I've cast both of the other ones, so people are more likely to wait until the first spells land and I get out of the way as much as I can before they start swinging. ;)

lol - I like the positive reinforcement for the tanks and non-caster dps: stick in the doorway, or no haste candy got you!! It can be frustrating as a caster, if the melee's charge off in different directions (more so for the cleric I guess: a friend once told me that he never chases players to heal.... he warns them and then heals those close by)

T

[ShaeNightbird]

lol - I like the positive reinforcement for the tanks and non-caster dps: stick in the doorway, or no haste candy got you!! It can be frustrating as a caster, if the melee's charge off in different directions (more so for the cleric I guess: a friend once told me that he never chases players to heal.... he warns them and then heals those close by)

T

My cleric does the same thing. I tell people beforehand if they're out of range and they need a heal, come back and get one. It's possible I wouldn't be able to find them anyway if they've run off far enough, or have gone down some stairs or something and on the map it looks as if they're standing right on me. I have other patients lined up in the waiting room, who are in range. If I'm the only cleric in the group, it makes it even worse to try to heal everyone if they're running off.