Wail Of The Banshee!!!

[Shattergod]

We're getting level 9 spells soon.... rather soon actually...

One has to wonder... will Wail of the Banshee... be simply too powerful?

For those not in the know... Wail of the Banshee is effectively an AoE Finger of Death...

[Drider]

I hope we get Weird as well.

[Beherit_Baphomar]

We are getting lvl9 spells soon?

Interesting...

[Angelus_dead]

For those not in the know... Wail of the Banshee is effectively an AoE Finger of Death...
I expect DDO's version will be nerfed so that the target limit is based on HD instead of creature quantity. I'd suggest a limit of around 4 HD per level of the caster. In addition, the spell DC could decrease by 1 each time it kills an enemy. This would leave the Weird spell as a mass-instakill with no limit on the number of targets, but allowing double saving throws.

Of course, at that level probably a lot of enemies will have Deathward or Greater Heroism. Hopefully they'll eventually fix the dispelling mechanic so players can reasonably strip those buffs.

[Alavatar]

That means enemies get spells as well! Which means we might get hit by Mage's Disjunction which can disenchant magical items!

But, I hope we get Gate. That might allow us to travel between shavarath and Meridia. And I hope Summon Monster IX gives us a bearded devil.

And Energy Drain will be interesting... as will Time Stop and Shapechange. :D

[dameron]

I expect DDO's version will be nerfed so that the target limit is based on HD instead of creature quantity. I'd suggest a limit of around 4 HD per level of the caster. In addition, the spell DC could decrease by 1 each time it kills an enemy. This would leave the Weird spell as a mass-instakill with no limit on the number of targets, but allowing double saving throws.

Of course, at that level probably a lot of enemies will have Deathward or Greater Heroism. Hopefully they'll eventually fix the dispelling mechanic so players can reasonably strip those buffs.

Why would Death Ward block Weird?

[frugal_gourmet]

That means enemies get spells as well! Which means we might get hit by Mage's Disjunction which can disenchant magical items!

I've got a feeling that spell will not be joining the game in its PNP form. I think the player base would collectively have a cow.

[deepshadow]

I've got a feeling that spell will not be joining the game in its PNP form. I think the player base would collectively have a cow.

Risks? Possible loss of equipment? Why not put a spell like this in the game? An adventure like this would actually create naked runs and might create some situations where people needed to adjust their gear or they could go in and risk losing an item.

It definitely wouldn't hurt to have something in the game that can actually remove an item (given the current economy). As long as the risks were made clear to people before they ended such an adventure.

Risks and Loss don't always have to be a negative.

[frugal_gourmet]

Risks? Possible loss of equipment? Why not put a spell like this in the game? An adventure like this would actually create naked runs and might create some situations where people needed to adjust their gear or they could go in and risk losing an item.

It definitely wouldn't hurt to have something in the game that can actually remove an item (given the current economy). As long as the risks were made clear to people before they ended such an adventure.

Risks and Loss don't always have to be a negative.

Perhaps.

I don't see it happening, honestly. I personally don't care because I rarely farm a great deal for stuff. But I am not the norm.

Consider the player who spends months running raids for an item only to lose it to one bad roll. Or lag. Or to never get to even use it in end quests because of fear enemy spellcasters might disjoin it (not fun). I think there's a legitimate reason death in the video game is way scaled back from in pen and paper D&D.

I could possibly see some sort of system whereby it damages magic items similar to when a player dies.

[Angelus_dead]

Why would Death Ward block Weird?
Because Weird is a mass version of Phantasmal Killer, so effects blocking PK will block it as well.

[dameron]

Because Weird is a mass version of Phantasmal Killer, so effects blocking PK will block it as well.

Well, why would Death Ward block PK?

[Angelus_dead]

It definitely wouldn't hurt to have something in the game that can actually remove an item (given the current economy). As long as the risks were made clear to people before they ended such an adventure.
That's a very misleading characterization. To say Mordenkainen's Disjunction "can" remove an item is like saying detonating dynamite in your hand can lead to serious injury. Mordenkainen's Disjunction does remove items. Even with the very best saving throws, 5% of the party's magic items would be deleted per-casting.

Adding the D&D version of the spell would be a bigger mistake than any error the DDO devs have made so far. They cannot possibly be so stupid as to do that. They've already announced Mordenkainen's Disjunction is coming to DDO, and the hints are that it will work like Dispel Magic without allowing an opposed caster-level check.

[Angelus_dead]

Well, why would Death Ward block PK?
I see the question, but am not allowed to answer it.

[frugal_gourmet]

I see the question, but am not allowed to answer it.

Does Death Ward block PK in DDO?

I'm genuinely curious.

[frugal_gourmet]

That's a very misleading characterization. To say Mordenkainen's Disjunction "can" remove an item is like saying detonating dynamite in your hand can lead to serious injury. Mordenkainen's Disjunction does remove items. Even with the very best saving throws, 5% of the party's magic items would be deleted per-casting.

Adding the D&D version of the spell would be a bigger mistake than any error the DDO devs have made so far. They cannot possibly be so stupid as to do that. They've already announced Mordenkainen's Disjunction is coming to DDO, and the hints are that it will work like Dispel Magic without allowing an opposed caster-level check.

Yes. A party gets hit with a single casting and loses at least around 5% of its stuff on average? Yikes. I have to think it will be toned in DDO. As a matter of fact, 9th level spells in D&D are so out there I can't imagine some of the implementations in this game.

What's unusual about the game so far is that melee types seem to be getting the most prominent roles at high levels and casters tend to be fading a bit into the background. Feels like the opposite of the PNP experience sometimes.

[Angelus_dead]

What's unusual about the game so far is that melee types seem to be getting the most prominent roles at high levels and casters tend to be fading a bit into the background. Feels like the opposite of the PNP experience sometimes.
That impression is caused by only two specific quests: Shroud and VOD. Aside from those two, spellcasters dominate the high-level content.

(Yes, this does indicate a problematic discontinuity in game design)

[frugal_gourmet]

That impression is caused by only two specific quests: Shroud and VOD. Aside from those two, spellcasters dominate the high-level content.

(Yes, this does indicate a problematic discontinuity in game design)

True enough. I guess when I said high-level I was indeed thinking primarily of the most "premiere" raids.

[deepshadow]

That's a very misleading characterization. To say Mordenkainen's Disjunction "can" remove an item is like saying detonating dynamite in your hand can lead to serious injury. Mordenkainen's Disjunction does remove items. Even with the very best saving throws, 5% of the party's magic items would be deleted per-casting.

Adding the D&D version of the spell would be a bigger mistake than any error the DDO devs have made so far. They cannot possibly be so stupid as to do that. They've already announced Mordenkainen's Disjunction is coming to DDO, and the hints are that it will work like Dispel Magic without allowing an opposed caster-level check.

You're assuming they don't alter or change any aspect of it so it would have only a chance to 'Blow your hand off'.

I disagree that adding a mechanic that 'might' destroy an item is a bad thing. As long as it's clear to the players before hand and not a surprise it might be an exciting aspect of the game. Could also be limited to a boss fight or some other mechanic.

This discussion seems to be rather moot at this point anyway, as you've already said Turbine has decided to make Disjunction some sort of Amp'ed up dispel magic. If they were so bold, they could stretch their imaginations a bit and make Disjunction nullify magic items for a duration or even perhaps until resting at a shrine.

From my experience, I've found that a little imagination goes a long way.

[Zuldar]

I'd rather they have the 9th level spells lean more towards the over powered side, we're not talking about about magic missiles and lightning bolts here. These are spells that should be able to stop time and shape reality. For something that is borderline epic I'd expect it to be fairly impressive, it would be disappointing otherwise.

[k1dwizard]

I agree spells that should be included need to have some meat, and i dont mean a steak that is too fatty, I'm talking grade-a select cut. I haven't played an abundance of spell casters when i played PnP, but only cause of the temptation to create water in an opponents lungs, fixed in 3.5, but dont the higher level spells no only cost you slots, but xp as well? i'm not suggesting it, but wouldn't that add a little something if you had to summon like a shrine for like 20K xp? (the number sounds high, and i swear I'm not, but i mean something very useful should cost us something right?

[Angelus_dead]

I haven't played an abundance of spell casters when i played PnP, but only cause of the temptation to create water in an opponents lungs, fixed in 3.5, but dont the higher level spells no only cost you slots, but xp as well? i'm not suggesting it, but wouldn't that add a little something if you had to summon like a shrine for like 20K xp?
Yes, D&D 3.x edition has a mechanic where some of the best high-level spells also drain the caster's XP. That system would not translate directly into DDO, because DDO has a level-cap that doesn't exist in D&D. Each time a D&D caster uses an XP-component spell he is delaying his advancement to next level, but since high-level DDO characters are already at the max level, they don't suffer that penalty. That would mean DDO characters can never afford those spells before they're capped, but then afterward the price becomes unnoticeable.

Instead, any DDO versions of spells of that type should be given a limited number of uses, and recharging 1 per rest, in addition to the regular cost in spellpoints. (Optionally, they could be allowed to spend APs to increase their limit on those spell uses)

[Alavatar]

Consider the player who spends months running raids for an item only to lose it to one bad roll. Or lag. Or to never get to even use it in end quests because of fear enemy spellcasters might disjoin it (not fun). I think there's a legitimate reason death in the video game is way scaled back from in pen and paper D&D.

Artifacts (raid items and some named loot I assume) would be allowed saving throws against Mordenkainen's Dysjunction if they aren't outright immune.

Basically, if the DM (Turbine in this case) says it's immune then it is immune.

[Alavatar]

Yes, D&D 3.x edition has a mechanic where some of the best high-level spells also drain the caster's XP. That system would not translate directly into DDO, because DDO has a level-cap that doesn't exist in D&D. Each time a D&D caster uses an XP-component spell he is delaying his advancement to next level, but since high-level DDO characters are already at the max level, they don't suffer that penalty. That would mean DDO characters can never afford those spells before they're capped, but then afterward the price becomes unnoticeable.

Instead, any DDO versions of spells of that type should be given a limited number of uses, and recharging 1 per rest, in addition to the regular cost in spellpoints. (Optionally, they could be allowed to spend APs to increase their limit on those spell uses)

It is also possible that DDO may substitute expensive material components for XP cost.

[frugal_gourmet]

Artifacts (raid items and some named loot I assume) would be allowed saving throws against Mordenkainen's Dysjunction if they aren't outright immune.

Basically, if the DM (Turbine in this case) says it's immune then it is immune.


As I said before, though, I'm not against an alternate version of the spell. Just not one that works like in PNP D&D.

[Angelus_dead]

Artifacts (raid items and some named loot I assume) would be allowed saving throws against Mordenkainen's Dysjunction if they aren't outright immune.
All magic items get saving throws against Mordenkainen's Disjunction.... and all saving throws fail on a natural 1. That's the source of the 5% loss figure I mentioned above.

Mordenkainen's Disjunction is a terribly designed spell for D&D, and it would be even worse if that design were imported into DDO, unless it's just a matter of a shared name.

[Alavatar]

All magic items get saving throws against Mordenkainen's Disjunction.... and all saving throws fail on a natural 1. That's the source of the 5% loss figure I mentioned above.

Mordenkainen's Disjunction is a terribly designed spell for D&D, and it would be even worse if that design were imported into DDO, unless it's just a matter of a shared name.

Aha! That should teach me to think before I research! I knew there was something that had to do with artifacts, but I couldn't remember what. This is it:

"Even artifacts are subject to disjunction, though there is only a 1% chance per caster level of actually affecting such powerful items. Additionally, if an artifact is destroyed, you must make a DC 25 Will save (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#will) or permanently lose all spellcasting abilities. (These abilities cannot be recovered by mortal magic, not even miracle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/miracle.htm) or wish (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm).)
Note: Destroying artifacts is a dangerous business, and it is 95% likely to attract the attention of some powerful being who has an interest in or connection with the device. "

[jkm]

the biggest issue i see with the 9th level spells, is the same issue that made casters severely overpowered with the introduction of finger of death - the ability to use up all of your spell points on one spell. in pnp, they are balanced out in that once you use up a slot or your number of casts per day at that level, you can't cast a spell from that level any more. in ddo, a sorc (assuming 3000 spell points) could cast wail of the banshee 60 times and kill up to 1200 mobs.

in mod 4, the problem was FoD/PK - you could just spam it to your heart's content (assuming maximize and empower had been turned off :o ) and decimate dungeons. its a mechanic that needs to be balanced before we get wail. whether we get max casts per level or an escalating spell point penalty for overusing a spell level, some modification needs to be made that makes playing a caster more challenging without them just bumping saves on mobs to "must enervate 2x before FoD level".

[Angelus_dead]

the biggest issue i see with the 9th level spells, is the same issue that made casters severely overpowered with the introduction of finger of death - the ability to use up all of your spell points on one spell. in pnp, they are balanced out in that once you use up a slot or your number of casts per day at that level, you can't cast a spell from that level any more. in ddo, a sorc (assuming 3000 spell points) could cast wail of the banshee 60 times and kill up to 1200 mobs.
Note that in DDO's original release, the cooldown on individual spells increased rapidly with spell level, such that spells of higher than level 5 couldn't really be used more than once per encounter. That was changed because it made some higher level spells useless in comparison to multiple castings of a lower level spell (but remember that at that time, metamagic costs were multiplicative, so there was no high-level metamagic bias)

[Missing_Minds]

We're getting level 9 spells soon.... rather soon actually...

One has to wonder... will Wail of the Banshee... be simply too powerful?

For those not in the know... Wail of the Banshee is effectively an AoE Finger of Death...

Wail of the Banshee will be renamed to Finger of Death II.
Just as the Divine "Heal Mass" will be renamed to Heall II.

Finger of Death II will be the same as Finger of Death, but have a higher DC.
Heall II will be the same as Heal, only it will have a maximum of 250 HP restored and have a higher DC.

Do you think I'm joking? I point you in the direction of Charm Monster, Mass, aka Charm Monster II.

[GlassCannon]

You could go so far as to add the "Fire, Fira, Firaga" sequence to it if you so desired; i.e. FoDa, FoDga :rolleyes:

Yes, I play too much Final Fantasy.

Additionally, the AoE FoD effects would have to be banned from use in Tavern Brawls.

[Paragon]

We're getting level 9 spells soon.... rather soon actually...

One has to wonder... will Wail of the Banshee... be simply too powerful?

For those not in the know... Wail of the Banshee is effectively an AoE Finger of Death...

Wail of the banshee wouldn't be overpowered if simply implemented as a mass FoD. It might be pretty good in stuff like the vale quests, but the way they're designing the high level raids and monsters, everything has such high saves and sr that FoD rarely ever works without multiple castings. Wail of the Banshee might kill 1 out of a group of 4 or 5 devils down in the subterrane, or 1 of the 4 devils in a spawn in VOD. That isn't too powerful.

[jkm]

Wail of the banshee wouldn't be overpowered if simply implemented as a mass FoD. It might be pretty good in stuff like the vale quests, but the way they're designing the high level raids and monsters, everything has such high saves and sr that FoD rarely ever works without multiple castings. Wail of the Banshee might kill 1 out of a group of 4 or 5 devils down in the subterrane, or 1 of the 4 devils in a spawn in VOD. That isn't too powerful.

50 spell points/1 cast for 1/4 devils vs 160 spell points/4 casts for 1 devil - still abnormally powerful given our resources. my personal preference would be for them to eliminate the mechanic that allows the abuse of the spell instead of making opposing mobs more resistant to its effects.

[Razvan]

50 spell points/1 cast for 1/4 devils vs 160 spell points/4 casts for 1 devil - still abnormally powerful given our resources. my personal preference would be for them to eliminate the mechanic that allows the abuse of the spell instead of making opposing mobs more resistant to its effects.


Frankly, if they make the spell work in a CONE radius in front of the caster then I don't think it would be overpowered even if it was a "mass FoD"...

[Lithic]

Frankly, if they make the spell work in a CONE radius in front of the caster then I don't think it would be overpowered even if it was a "mass FoD"...

Ever see a caster gather 40 mobs and ice them all with ONE cone of cold? If anything, that would be worse than a haste-sized centered mass FoD. The only thing that makes a cone annoying these days is the teleporting devils, and I personally don't want to see anymore of that.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

We are getting lvl9 spells soon?

Interesting...


Yes *soon* as in Mod 9, I believe they said Jan. Which I think meant Jan 2010.

[Razvan]

Ever see a caster gather 40 mobs and ice them all with ONE cone of cold? If anything, that would be worse than a haste-sized centered mass FoD. The only thing that makes a cone annoying these days is the teleporting devils, and I personally don't want to see anymore of that.


Ever see a caster FoD and PK using Enlarge?...add "mass FoD" to that and everyone should just let the caster go ahead and finish the quest by themselves...no need for anyone else...

And the workaround the fact that the caster can gather all the mobs in front of him and kill them all is just adding a limit to the number of mobs the spell can kill in one cast (say 1 for every 3 levs of caster)...add to that the fact that a lot of them will save and there is no problem.

And frankly, I think casters should be able to FoD everything directly in front of them...the end game (levels 18-20) is where they shine, don't they?

[dameron]

Ever see a caster FoD and PK using Enlarge?...add "mass FoD" to that and everyone should just let the caster go ahead and finish the quest by themselves...no need for anyone else...

And the workaround the fact that the caster can gather all the mobs in front of him and kill them all is just adding a limit to the number of mobs the spell can kill in one cast (say 1 for every 3 levs of caster)...add to that the fact that a lot of them will save and there is no problem.

And frankly, I think casters should be able to FoD everything directly in front of them...the end game (levels 18-20) is where they shine, don't they?

1 per ever 3 levels is still 6 mobs. I would think it pretty rare to be able to target 6 mobs at once.

The real limiting factor on that spell is the paltry AoE our spells have in DDO. Who cares if you can kill 17 or 18 theoretical mobs if you'll rarely be able to target more than 3-4 reliably?

Plus there are a ton of mobs who will be immune (even scorpions for some reason). I'd really rather wait to see what kinds of fights we'll be having at level 17-20 before saying anything is overpowered.

[Laith]

Plus there are a ton of mobs who will be immune (even scorpions for some reason). vermin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typessubtypes.htm) are mindless and thus immune to phantasms (like, for instance, phantasmal killer) among other things.

of course, wail of the banshee isn't an illusion (or a phantasm): it's a necromancy death/sonic effect (aoe centered on caster).

[dameron]

vermin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typessubtypes.htm) are mindless and thus immune to phantasms (like, for instance, phantasmal killer) among other things.

They're immune to [Sonic] (in DDO) which makes them immune to "Wail of the Banshee", which is what I was talking about.

[Laith]

They're immune to [Sonic] (in DDO) which makes them immune to "Wail of the Banshee", which is what I was talking about.i distinctly remember sound bursting them on several occasions... is my memory wrong?

[dameron]

i distinctly remember sound bursting them on several occasions... is my memory wrong?

It could be some are immune and some aren't. I know several (flesh and blood) scorpions in the desert pop up "IMMUNE" when I crit with my thundering puncturing rapier on the sonic damage.

[Zenako]

Couple of easy ways to a Handle Disjunction.

Make "bound" items immune.

Make any item that fails simply Broken and unusable, but it can be repaired as normal with the associated costs.

This accomplishes the game PLAY objective of making a percentage of items on each character unusuable (but not destroyed and gone forever) in that quest. You could also limit it to items On the character, not in the backpack to further limit the impact.

Given those things, it would be a lot more palatable to bring into play. (They could also "break" some of the loot if the characters actually cast the spell at the mobs during the fight. Open chest and all I got is a broken sword...)

[Angelus_dead]

This accomplishes the game PLAY objective of making a percentage of items on each character unusuable (but not destroyed and gone forever) in that quest. You could also limit it to items On the character, not in the backpack to further limit the impact.
That would still be a terrible spell for gameplay. It would accomplish no good purpose.

[Zenako]

That would still be a terrible spell for gameplay. It would accomplish no good purpose.

I assume the goals of the mobs is to defeat the characters in a battle that is designed to provide a challenge...correct?

Then how would this not aid in that goal?

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I don't see it as a problem. lvl 16 and below quests, are not supposed to be a challenge for lvl 18 chars.

They just have to design future high lvl content to account for player capabilities.

High spell resistance/saves......deathward.....etc.

But I do hope they give us some trash mobs we can beat up with our new spells too.

[Laith]

Couple of easy ways to a Handle Disjunction.

Make "bound" items immune.

Make any item that fails simply Broken and unusable, but it can be repaired as normal with the associated costs.

This accomplishes the game PLAY objective of making a percentage of items on each character unusuable (but not destroyed and gone forever) in that quest. You could also limit it to items On the character, not in the backpack to further limit the impact.

Given those things, it would be a lot more palatable to bring into play. now the question is how to change this from "so annoying i'm going to endlessly flame turbine and avoid the quest until it goes away" to "fun".


(They could also "break" some of the loot if the characters actually cast the spell at the mobs during the fight. Open chest and all I got is a broken sword...)
btw: any caster that used such a spell would be reamed.

[Angelus_dead]

I assume the goals of the mobs is to defeat the characters in a battle that is designed to provide a challenge...correct?

Then how would this not aid in that goal?
To answer that would require more pedagogical effort than I'm willing to undertake. But to put it tersely: "Verisimilitude is a low priority for gameplay, and verisimilitude to an unprecedented fiat is even lower".

[dameron]

I assume the goals of the mobs is to defeat the characters in a battle that is designed to provide a challenge...correct?

Then how would this not aid in that goal?

It would almost have to be an NPC only spell since I really doubt the Mobs have any kind of items or inventory at all.

If they were to make it a PC spell then it should probably function like automatic Dispel Magic with 100% success rate. I think people would like that and actually carry that spell.

[Zenako]

It would almost have to be an NPC only spell since I really doubt the Mobs have any kind of items or inventory at all.

If they were to make it a PC spell then it should probably function like automatic Dispel Magic with 100% success rate. I think people would like that and actually carry that spell.

It is presumed that the Loot in the Chest "reflects" the mobs treasure.

As for in battle effects, often times it is also assumed that the mobs are using +X items to achieve their hit probs, that they have arms and armor with bonuses to give them AC and Hit Points. So it would be simple to create a -X penalty on various attributes for the mob affected by such a spell. The battle impact for use makes no difference if the mob is affected or their theroectical weapons and gear was destroyed, same net effect on combat.

Just like when hit with level drains, characters lose fixed amount of hit prob for each level drain and hit points, etc. It is really an abstraction of the concept and not a full and true level drain like old D&D 1.0 and the like.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

That would still be a terrible spell for gameplay. It would accomplish no good purpose.

Oh, I don't know, with the limit he suggested (broken but repairable) I think it would be a great addition to the game. One of my last PnP chars was a tripping expert...but every so often he had to drop his weapon on a failed trip attempt. That was almost as exciting as having succeeded in a trip as it meant you had to move to probably infearior backup weapons.

I could add some challenge to gameplay and mess with the min/maxers since they might have to have a fall back strategy if their prized item isn't there for the rest of the quest.

[Zenako]

Oh, I don't know, with the limit he suggested (broken but repairable) I think it would be a great addition to the game. One of my last PnP chars was a tripping expert...but every so often he had to drop his weapon on a failed trip attempt. That was almost as exciting as having succeeded in a trip as it meant you had to move to probably infearior backup weapons.

I could add some challenge to gameplay and mess with the min/maxers since they might have to have a fall back strategy if their prized item isn't there for the rest of the quest.

Exactly.... plus it could be another cash flow sink to hit at the spiralling economy...

items just taken out of the battle, but not permanently destroyed (which would be a very very serious mistake for a number of player retention issues), would be something to consider.

[frugal_gourmet]

items just taken out of the battle, but not permanently destroyed (which would be a very very serious mistake for a number of player retention issues), would be something to consider.

Consider that you're not talking about a spell that be useful for players, though. The extent to which you would see it is the end boss in some really annoying raid. And, if the risk got up there, you'd just wind up with another quest people hardly run.

I believe they wanted to implement it as a spell for players. Meaning it couldn't possibly work like this. It would have to be something that was useful for us and not just enemies or "the ecomomy".

[Laith]

Exactly.... plus it could be another cash flow sink to hit at the spiralling economy...

items just taken out of the battle, but not permanently destroyed (which would be a very very serious mistake for a number of player retention issues), would be something to consider.see, the problem i see is that we're really looking at 1 of 2 possibilities:

1. it's used by random monsters.
this means it's probably spammed, and 20minutes into the quest, we're all at least half naked... or we've designated a single person to take the hits.

2. it's used rarely, for bosses or static encounters.
this means we can prepare for it (sending in the will-save guy, or someone that's naked).
if the situation doesn't allow that, it presents a problem similar to shroud2 where the quest varies wildly in difficulty because of a random event that the players can't control.

in either case, losing random items isn't "fun", it just makes things more difficult in a way we can't actively counter.

[Zenako]

Consider that you're not talking about a spell that be useful for players, though. The extent to which you would see it is the end boss in some really annoying raid. And, if the risk got up there, you'd just wind up with another quest people hardly run.

I believe they wanted to implement it as a spell for players. Meaning it couldn't possibly work like this. It would have to be something that was useful for us and not just enemies or "the ecomomy".

But if you consider it a mob DEBUFF spell. You take away from that +50 to hit. Now it is only +45. Drop a Curse on them and it is +41, Ray of Enfeeblement or some Fatigue effect and drop another handful of bonus. Pretty soon all your tanks and near tanks are all but immune to attacks from the mob that is IMMUNE to elemental types of damage for example.

[Zenako]

see, the problem i see is that we're really looking at 1 of 2 possibilities:

1. it's used by random monsters.
this means it's probably spammed, and 20minutes into the quest, we're all at least half naked... or we've designated a single person to take the hits.

2. it's used rarely, for bosses or static encounters.
this means we can prepare for it (sending in the will-save guy, or someone that's naked).
if the situation doesn't allow that, it presents a problem similar to shroud2 where the quest varies wildly in difficulty because of a random event that the players can't control.

in either case, losing random items isn't "fun", it just makes things more difficult in a way we can't actively counter.


But isn't the uncertainty of part 2 what makes it a lot more interesting than the other parts. Makes it a little bit of an adventure?

I don't play the game for autowin buttons...having a chance of failure or screw up is what makes things interesting...

[Laith]

But isn't the uncertainty of part 2 what makes it a lot more interesting than the other parts. Makes it a little bit of an adventure?sure, but it's also what causes people to abandon elite runs (or the idea of running elite) without even trying.

edit:
the problem is that due to something beyond the players control, the quest is exponentially harder to complete than is otherwise possible.

let's say we were running the hound or VoD with this feature, and an intimidate ring bites the dust... or maybe potency or fortification items. A quest that was once challenging suddenly becomes impossibly difficult.

If this event happens early in the quest, people will reset if they weren't lucky.

If this event happens far into the quest, it will be frustrating and probably expensive if they weren't lucky, but groups might press on. The things that we can be certain of are that:
1) they won't be happy that they've lost equipment and get to "meet an interesting challenge",
2) the intelligent and rich will bring spare equipment along to prepare for the worst. Poorer players will not be so lucky,
3) people that already have a piece of raid loot will start rolling on backups.

[theANTItommy]

some modification needs to be made that makes playing a caster more challenging without them just bumping saves

i believe that challenge as a caster is called "levels 1-10". if you start at level one with a caster and work your way to being able to use 9th level spells, IMHO, the benefit to dying constantly in the early and mid levels of the game is being able to wipe out a huge mob with one spell.

lunchbreak over back to work

[omnific]

What I want is just Wish and Miracle, so my casters can get +5 to all of their abilities

[Angelus_dead]

Oh, I don't know, with the limit he suggested (broken but repairable) I think it would be a great addition to the game. One of my last PnP chars was a tripping expert...but every so often he had to drop his weapon on a failed trip attempt. That was almost as exciting as having succeeded in a trip as it meant you had to move to probably infearior backup weapons.
And then the encounter ends, you pick your good weapon off the floor, and continue with the quest. Adding a DDO ability to "Disarm" a target, which denies use of an item for 15-30 seconds would be fine.

That's totally different from what a D&D-like version of Mordenkainen's Disjunction would do; even if it "only" breaks the items to 0% hp instead of deleting them completely, it's still not fun because it can't be recovered until you find a vendor.

[Alavatar]

And then the encounter ends, you pick your good weapon off the floor, and continue with the quest. Adding a DDO ability to "Disarm" a target, which denies use of an item for 15-30 seconds would be fine.

That's totally different from what a D&D-like version of Mordenkainen's Disjunction would do; even if it "only" breaks the items to 0% hp instead of deleting them completely, it's still not fun because it can't be recovered until you find a vendor.

My guess is that if Turbine implemented Disjunction as Zenako suggests then I bet they would have this cast only by a RAID boss so as to stem the flow of player complaints. Normal NPC casters would probably still just spam Greater Dispel.

I hope.

[winsom]

How many 9th level spells have we seen in DDO so far? Meteor Swarm?

Meteor Swarm is weaker in DDO than it is in D&D. If all the meteors impact a person he is supposed to receive no save against any of the spell's damage. He should not be allowed to Evade this damage. There is also supposed to be burst radius damage that non-targetted people nearby get a save for half damage. People hit by the meteors do not get a save vs the fire or bludgeon damage. That is why it is a 9th level spell in D&D !

I hope this spell is buffed-up because my wizard will be disappointed if her casting of it allows a saving throw.


Im fairly certain that the 9th level Disjunction spell will only affect spells in DDO. Its probably too messy to code in a way to disjoin magic items in way that is acceptable to the players. One way would be character-debuff that removes additional damage dice and damage additions from attacks such that only strength, feats and songs are being counted until that character "rests". The easier solution that is an automatic dispel of all spells on the target regardless of caster level.

[sirgog]

How many 9th level spells have we seen in DDO so far? Meteor Swarm?

Meteor Swarm is weaker in DDO than it is in D&D. If all the meteors impact a person he is supposed to receive no save against any of the spell's damage. He should not be allowed to Evade this damage. There is also supposed to be burst radius damage that non-targetted people nearby get a save for half damage. People hit by the meteors do not get a save vs the fire or bludgeon damage. That is why it is a 9th level spell in D&D !

I hope this spell is buffed-up because my wizard will be disappointed if her casting of it allows a saving throw.


Im fairly certain that the 9th level Disjunction spell will only affect spells in DDO. Its probably too messy to code in a way to disjoin magic items in way that is acceptable to the players. One way would be character-debuff that removes additional damage dice and damage additions from attacks such that only strength, feats and songs are being counted until that character "rests". The easier solution that is an automatic dispel of all spells on the target regardless of caster level.

With DDO's Potency items (which have no analogue in P&P), high level damage spells are generally extremely weak, or at best become niche spells like Polar Ray (good in one or two encounters against fire immune foes with evasion and good reflex saves).

There are two reasonable solutions to this:

1) Up both the base damage and cooldown times of level 9 spells (so you start off the combat with a Meteor Swarm and it's your best spell, but then you can't cast another for 20 seconds or so). This would solve the potential problem of spells like Wail of the Banshee being overpowered too.

2) Increase enemy saves and SR so spells like Wail of the Banshee become good but not overpowered, keep current projected cooldown times, and provide Potency 9 items on the loot tables to make 9th level damage spells attractive.

[richieelias27]

That means enemies get spells as well! Which means we might get hit by Mage's Disjunction which can disenchant magical items!

But, I hope we get Gate. That might allow us to travel between shavarath and Meridia. And I hope Summon Monster IX gives us a bearded devil.

And Energy Drain will be interesting... as will Time Stop and Shapechange. :D

I'm 99% sure that you will not be getting time stop or shapchange, and 100% sure that you will not get mages disjunction in the way you describe.

Wail of the banshee and wierd will probably be in, but I'll bet you'll also see almost every monster wearing a deathblock item as well.

Also, a level cap of 20 will allow for potency 9 items.

[Alavatar]

I'm 99% sure that you will not be getting time stop or shapchange, and 100% sure that you will not get mages disjunction in the way you describe.

Wail of the banshee and wierd will probably be in, but I'll bet you'll also see almost every monster wearing a deathblock item as well.

Also, a level cap of 20 will allow for potency 9 items.

Potency 9 makes me less then excited due to (speculative) monster HP being inflated. Meteor Swarm will do approximately;

24d6 (base) + 12d6 (sup. pot 9) + 24d6 (max) + 12d6 (emp) + 10d6 (enhance) = 82d6

"You mean I can do 330 damage in an area effect? Woohoo! That's 20% of the monster's HP!" ;)

[richieelias27]

Yup, pretty much!

And I'll be the first to agree that the imaginary items in-game are obscenely overpowered.

Also I think potency and metamagics and enhancements together are multiplicative not additive...

[dameron]

Wail of the banshee and wierd will probably be in, but I'll bet you'll also see almost every monster wearing a deathblock item as well.


A deathblock item would not stop "Weird".

[richieelias27]

And would probably be the only reason to take the spell over wail given the dual fort/will save....