Excelovely: Dwarven 13C/2M/1F

[iruka41]

Also don't know the same concept has been posted, just giving out my sketch. :)

This build focuses on Spell DC, also with Melee DPS, AC, and Saves.
Spell DC cause I don't want to be a gimped caster.
Melee DPS cause I want to do something more than mere caster.
AC cause I don't want to suck half of my SP healing myself :)
Saves cause I want to be the last man standing. With Evasion.

To become a viable caster, I had to start with 17WIS and level up with WIS too.
To become a viable melee DPS combatant, I needed IC:Slashing and Power Attack. (Martial Weapon Proficiancy too)
To become a surviver, I needed Evasion. (So with 2 Monks levels, cuase it gives me more feats compared to rogues)

Of course I know a Balde Barrier can do much more DPS than my melee swings,
but I wanted to something more than that. Also, all those raid loots are waiting for me for much more fun!
(I really hate to skip those awesome gears, weapons :))

So here it goes, seems like so typical to me,
but before I actually roll it, I wanted to hear what you guys are thinking about it.

Excelovely, 13Cleric / 2Monk / 1Fighter
Dwarf, Lawful Good, Female (I love Female Dwarves. Don't ask me why! lol)

STR 14 +6Item +2Tome = 22
DEX 14 +6Item +2Tome = 22
CON 14 +2Enhance +6Item +2Tome = 24
INT 11 +1Tome(@Lv1)
WIS 17 +4Level +3Enhance +6Item +2Tome = 32
CHA 6 +6Item +2Tome = 14

Go with CON15, INT10 if you have +2INT tome if you want more HP,
or go with CON13, INT12 for more skill points. Up to you.

Edit: Stat distribution has been changed also.
To max Intimidate and Concentration, at least 12INT is needed.
So... CON16, INT9 -> CON14, INT11 :)

Feats:
1 Skill Focus: Intimidate
1(F1) Power Attack
3 Extend Spell
6 Empower Healing Spell (You can switch into Empower Spell if you think you don't need it.)
9 Quicken Spell
11(M1) Toughness
12 Maximize Spell
14(M2) Toughness
15 Improved Critical: Slashing

Edit: There has been major changes in feat selection. Thank you all who gave me awesome comments!!!

Skills:
Max - Intimidate, Concentration (3 points-per-cleric-level needed)
Mid- Jump, Balance (If you have some spare skill points)
Min- Tumble (Just 2 points)

Below is breakdowns with "Every Items". I know it will take forever, just wanted to show you her potential.
Of course you'll be short on action points, just look at it as each of its maximum, not all at the same time.

2-Handed AC:
10Base + 6DEX + 11WIS + 8Armor + 4Shield + 4Parrying +7Dodge + 5Deflection + 3Natural + 2Recitation + 1Haste = 61 (Self)
+2Natural +5Aura +4Bard = 72 (Party)

Monks FTW!, BTW +4 Shield bonus is kinda tricky to maintain, so realistic final self-buffed AC will be like 57.

Initial Attack Bonus with Power Attack:
11Base +6STR +2Enhance +5DivinePower +3DivineFavor +4GH +1Haste +5Weapon -5PowerAttack = 32 (Self)
+4Bard = 36 (Party, 37 if Warchanter, 38 if with Rage spell, but -2AC)

Not bad attack bonus except it has to be refreshed like every couple minutes lol.

Base Damage with +5 Great Axe:
11.5Base +9STR +10PA +2Enhance +3DF = 35.5 (Self)
+6Bard = 41.5 (Party)

Add on any elemental/racial/whatever bonus damage to above. I guess it's not too bad.

Spell Saves: (Fort/Ref/Will)
9/11/11_Base +7/6/11_Stat +5/5/5_Dwarf +4/4/4_GH +2/2/2_Recitation +0/1/0_Haste +2/2/2_GoodLuck = 29/31/35 (Self)
+5/5/5_Aura = 34/36/40 (Party)

Not bad at all. I guess you can drop Dwarven Spell Defence Enhancement if needed. (self-26/28/33)

Intimidate:
19Base +2CHA +3SF +1Enhance +15Item +4GH +2GL +6GS = 52(self)
+2Song = 54(party)

Quite enough for end-game raids, most useful in any other places.
I can see it's risky to attatch mobs on clerics, one might have to be wise to use this! ;)

HP:
20Base +10Favor +130Class +112CON +36Feat +18Minos +55Enhance +30GFL +45GS = 456 (472 Raged)

When maxed, you won't be affected by Power Word: Stun anymore. Go have some fun in PvP :)

SP:
610Base +242WIS +170Enhance +200Archmagi +150GS = 1372


Thoughts and comments, worries and corrections, all are welcome!
Thank you in advance :D

[iruka41]

Reserved for future reference.

(Yeah I'm looking at a long shot since I don't have any clerical toon at the moment. This might fulfill my desire :))

20080823 Thx to Samho & richieelias27, re-aligned level progression and feat selection. Dropped Spell Penetration line and grabbed multiple Toughness. Moved fighter level to 1 so I can max intimidate, dropped UMD for that reason. Note to myself: Don't kill yourself by over-intimidating lol.

20080823 Thx to DaveyCrockett, switched Power Attack and Toughness cause Toughness wasn't a fighter's bonus feat ;)

20080824 Thx to Lithic, dropped a toughness for SF:Intimidate!!! This is awesome :D

20080824 Thx to Maddmatt70, Lithic, will try to drop Empower and grab Empower Healing. Will see how it goes, I can always switch back if not a must.

20080825 Thx to my guildie, found out that I need 12INT to max both Intim and Concentration on cleric levels. So stat distribution has been changed.

[samho]

Also don't know the same concept has been posted, just giving out my sketch. :)


Initial Attack Bonus with Power Attack:
11Base +6STR +2Enhance +5DivinePower +3DivineFavor +2Recitation +4GH +1Haste +5Weapon -5PowerAttack = 34 (Self)
+4Bard = 38 (Party, 39 if Warchanter, 40 if with Rage spell, but -2AC)

Not bad attack bonus except it has to be refreshed like every couple minutes lol.

Base Damage with +5 Great Axe:
11.5Base +9STR +10PA +2Enhance +2Recitation +3DF = 37.5 (Self)
+6Bard = 43.5 (Party)




(1) Recitation use the same bonus type (lucky) on to-hit, and it doesn't provide lucky type damage roll bonus.

(2) Was thinking that you may also consider drop both the spell pen for something else more useful. (Maybe it's just me, but I would only consider take spell pen for level 15+ cleric -- maybe take empower spell -- not empower healing mind you -- to go with Blade Barrier route? In the end game it make more sense than Destruction or crappy Banishment. Yes, I'm a little bit annoying about seeing my wisdom 37 cleric keep fail to banishment the outsider in subterran and my wisdom 24 cleric just melee them to death or blade barrier to finish them off *shrug* )

(3) Don't waste time on intimidate if you can't spare 2 skill point per level on it ( Means start with 10 plus +2 Tome, or start with 11 plus +1 tome), because it means you will be 10 point behind those who max intimidate on every level. 10 point can be critical since if you want make your intimidate useful at end game, you might want it to sitting at 40+ (and 54+ if you want intimidate Suulomades or harry. Hound may need higher but I don't think you are going to intimidate it :p ) [EDIT] You also want to take Fighter at first level just in case.

[iruka41]

(1) Recitation use the same bonus type (lucky) on to-hit, and it doesn't provide lucky type damage roll bonus.

Good point and thank you for your input. I'll edit that out :)

(2) Was thinking that you may also consider drop both the spell pen for something else more useful. (Maybe it's just me, but I would only consider take spell pen for level 15+ cleric -- maybe take empower spell -- not empower healing mind you -- to go with Blade Barrier route? In the end game it make more sense than Destruction or crappy Banishment. Yes, I'm a little bit annoying about seeing my wisdom 37 cleric keep fail to banishment the outsider in subterran and my wisdom 24 cleric just melee them to death or blade barrier to finish them off *shrug* )

The build already have Empower/Maximize for BB so.. still 2 free feats :)
About spell penetration, prolly I wouldn't try that in the Subterrance, instead use it on normal Vale loot-running. But yeah, I might consider to take either Toughness line or Mental Toughness line for more melee/BB.

(3) Don't waste time on intimidate if you can't spare 2 skill point per level on it ( Means start with 10 plus +2 Tome, or start with 11 plus +1 tome), because it means you will be 10 point behind those who max intimidate on every level. 10 point can be critical since if you want make your intimidate useful at end game, you might want it to sitting at 40+ (and 54+ if you want intimidate Suulomades or harry. Hound may need higher but I don't think you are going to intimidate it :p ) [EDIT] You also want to take Fighter at first level just in case.

Yup, agreed. I might want to max out Intimidate if I really consider it. Maybe I will gimp UMD to max it.
Currently building 2 Intimitanks (one mainly pally/fighter, one mainly rogue, both of'em are heavy multiclasses) so I know how +10 Intimidate changes the success rate :)

About the fighter level, I wanted to at the first time, but then I can't get caster-feats at level 1.
It's not a problem if I wanted to get another Toughness, but matters when I changed my mind to get Mental Toughness, or any other caster-related feats. I already made the mistake on my 1Barb/15Sor so I know how it feels like when the **** comes down :<
But yeah, if I want to max Intimidate, it is wise to go with fighter level earlier as possible. Maybe I'll get the fighter level at around 2?

Thanks for your comments, will update the build some!!! :)

EDIT: After a minute, I agree with you that I should put the fighter level at 1. Dropping Penetration line for more Toughness so that I'll be good as long as I don't want those Toughness for another spell-related feats. I hope it won't happen lol. Thanks again for your insight! :)

[richieelias27]

Very short glance at the build and so far:

drop mental toughness and the fighter level and throw in a paladin level instead (replacing mental toughness with the imp crit you took for your freebie fighter feat). You gain more SP than mental toughness that way plus the paladin aura bonus.

edit: subtracted my own detailing of getting rid of spell penetration after seeing that someone else beat me to it :P in summation: spells with spell penetration or DC rolls for effect are going to be very mana inefficient for you.

Also, keep in mind that most every party REEEEEALLY does not want to see any of their clerics risking death by intimitanking... well... anything. In this case its not so much "BATTLECLERICS CANT HEAL!!1111!!" (which I usually drop group after hearing) as it is "we do not want our only cleric to risk death".

[iruka41]

Very short glance at the build and so far:

drop mental toughness and the fighter level and throw in a paladin level instead (replacing mental toughness with the imp crit you took for your freebie fighter feat). You gain more SP than mental toughness that way plus the paladin aura bonus.

edit: subtracted my own detailing of getting rid of spell penetration after seeing that someone else beat me to it :P in summation: spells with spell penetration or DC rolls for effect are going to be very mana inefficient for you.

Also, keep in mind that most every party REEEEEALLY does not want to see any of their clerics risking death by intimitanking... well... anything. In this case its not so much "BATTLECLERICS CANT HEAL!!1111!!" (which I usually drop group after hearing) as it is "we do not want our only cleric to risk death".

Thanks for your concern :)

I got quite nice comments from you too, made a major change to the build.
Not taking a Paladin level, but will drop Spell Penetration and grab more Toughness for life insurrance :)

Yeah.. I have to admit. I am quite Intimidate-holic lol.
I understand how it's risky to intimitank as a cleric. Maybe I wanted too much from one single build ;)
Most times I run with my guildies so I think they can understand me (hopefully lol)
Other than that, I won't over-intimidate in PUG. Besides, I think it is still useful to detatch mobs from players who's more squicier than this toon. Also, rogues might be able to duo with me right? :) I want to see the positive way but I'll consider your concerns and be careful. Thanks again!

(And..yeah that'd be why I can't drop the fighter level :<)

[DaveyCrockett]

Feats:
1 Toughness
1(F1) Toughness

Heading out the door, so I don't have time to scrutinize thoroughly, but I noticed what I quoted..
Toughness is not a Fighter class feat.

You need to switch to Power Attack with the Fighter Level, and Toughness with the first Monk feat

[richieelias27]

Yeah if you want to keep intimidate then fighter is pretty necessary. I sure wish my paladin/cleric battlecleric had intimidate when I grouped with an all monk party once..... Apparently they all went the all strength no AC route.. eventually the quest was easier to just stop healing them and solo the darn thing.

Also, depending on your tastes 3 toughness feats may or may not be overkill. I mean you're already dwarf so you get very decent HP. Might consider taking the two handed fighting feats instead of 2 of the toughnesses. It's only a 36 hp loss after all.

[iruka41]

Heading out the door, so I don't have time to scrutinize thoroughly, but I noticed what I quoted..
Toughness is not a Fighter class feat.

You need to switch to Power Attack with the Fighter Level, and Toughness with the first Monk feat

AWWWW stupid me! lol.
Thanks a lot! I'll edit that too! :)

Seemed like I really needed some sleep. (Good thing I did lol)

[iruka41]

Yeah if you want to keep intimidate then fighter is pretty necessary. I sure wish my paladin/cleric battlecleric had intimidate when I grouped with an all monk party once..... Apparently they all went the all strength no AC route.. eventually the quest was easier to just stop healing them and solo the darn thing.

Also, depending on your tastes 3 toughness feats may or may not be overkill. I mean you're already dwarf so you get very decent HP. Might consider taking the two handed fighting feats instead of 2 of the toughnesses. It's only a 36 hp loss after all.

Not a big fan of THF feat lines, but I can always try that out!
If I liked it, i'll edit the build hehe :)

[maddmatt70]

Not a huge fan of your stat distribution or intent. I understand that ddo korea has an interesting style with the battle arcanes what have you so this may work for the way you all play, but the negatives of this is its a tweener without empower healing. It does not have enough strength really to do the melee thing with much purpose at end game, it has a high dex (you do get evasion which is cool but why not two weapon fighting with this high of a dex?), but is a two handed fighting or sword and board build, it doesn't have an extraordinarily high wisdom as say a human cleric with monk splash build for its dcs, it only gets 2 ninth level spells because of its non cleric levels which could have an impact, it doesn't not have empower healing and has 3 non cleric levels so its ability to healbot is kind of reduced. My question for you with all of this is what does this build do well? Blade barrior maybe, but this mod blade barrior was not in vogue..

[richieelias27]

For a battlecleric a starting str of 14 is ideal. With the massive amount of +BAB and +AB buffs that clerics have he wont be missing much of anything. In fact, even my halfling healbot cleric with a piddly starting str of 9 was able to hit trash mobs reliably with just a str item and divine power. So yes, he will be fine against anything that doesnt dispell, and for things that do: Blade Barrier.

Empower healing is nice if you want to be a healbot. 100% not required by any means. My cleric that does have it rarely ever needs to use it.

Starting wis of 17 would be fine even for a caster/CC cleric (Though his missing cleric levels makes CC a very poor option)

Given the choice of spells at 8th level, only getting 2 cleric spells at 9th probably wont be a big deal.

3 missing cleric levels doesnt subtract much from healing.

Healbot: someone that does nothing but heal the party. During combat if nobody is taking damage they stand there twiddling their thumbs. Doesnt look like he's interested in doing that.

Blade Barrier is always en vogue except for that short couple of weeks where they broke it :P


And iruka41:
The reason I suggested two handed fighting feats is that it seemed like you were planning on using Greataxes

[Lithic]

You may not want to hear this, but you need empowered healing, and the enhancements that go with it. Its a massive healing boost for very little cost, and with 500hp you are going to want to empowered heal your heal spells,for yourself if noone else, not to mention the mass cure spells. Drop empower or one of your many toughness feats for it. As a dwarf, 3 toughness feats is overkill. Drop 2 of them and get something more usefull. As your ac is pretty high, I would look into dodge. You don't have the int for combat expertise, though changing your starting wis to 16 would solve that. Alternatively, you may want bullheaded and skill focus:intimidate so you can actually intimidate elite stuff, though as another has said it's going to make many pugs nervous.

[iruka41]

You may not want to hear this, but you need empowered healing, and the enhancements that go with it. Its a massive healing boost for very little cost, and with 500hp you are going to want to empowered heal your heal spells,for yourself if noone else, not to mention the mass cure spells. Drop empower or one of your many toughness feats for it. As a dwarf, 3 toughness feats is overkill. Drop 2 of them and get something more usefull. As your ac is pretty high, I would look into dodge. You don't have the int for combat expertise, though changing your starting wis to 16 would solve that. Alternatively, you may want bullheaded and skill focus:intimidate so you can actually intimidate elite stuff, though as another has said it's going to make many pugs nervous.

Awesome comment about the SF:Intimidate!!! I can't believe that I didn't include it!
I'll edit the build immediately and drop a Toughness :) I am a true fan of SF:Intimidate!

About Empower Healing, I guess I will just use Maximize or Empower for it instead actually. Not much SP-efficient, but some items (like in the new raids) give % decrease bonus to SP consumption on Empower or Maximize, so I guess using those items will help the SP management a little. (True there's Efficient Empower Healing items in the game too, but those items doesn't affect BB so... I think it's close if not even)

CE is quite a nice idea, thought about that for a while, but then I have to bother with switching it back on everytime I use any spells... :< That could be annoying I guessed. Dodge isn't bad at all actually. Will think about that too.

Thanks for your thoughts :D

[iruka41]

Not a huge fan of your stat distribution or intent. I understand that ddo korea has an interesting style with the battle arcanes what have you so this may work for the way you all play, but the negatives of this is its a tweener without empower healing. It does not have enough strength really to do the melee thing with much purpose at end game, it has a high dex (you do get evasion which is cool but why not two weapon fighting with this high of a dex?), but is a two handed fighting or sword and board build, it doesn't have an extraordinarily high wisdom as say a human cleric with monk splash build for its dcs, it only gets 2 ninth level spells because of its non cleric levels which could have an impact, it doesn't not have empower healing and has 3 non cleric levels so its ability to healbot is kind of reduced. My question for you with all of this is what does this build do well? Blade barrior maybe, but this mod blade barrior was not in vogue..

Thank you for your comments.
Yeah prolly we have some odd ways to play the game, but I think I won't do that outside the guild, so everyone could be happy with that :D

About Empower Healing feat, yeah I guess you have a point.
At first I thought I will be happy with just Emp/Max, but suddenly I think those Empower Healing + Heal spell is quite nice for this build. (Wouldn't grab Emp.Heal if I was a full 16 cleric, but in this build I see it's quite useful!)
Thank you for your concern :)

The reason for not-TWF is, the number of feats needed to achieve that. I won't do S&B since it will kill my AC(Monk), so my choice was either TWF or THF. And TWF needed 2~3 feats, that's the reason why I made it THF. Less DPS, but cheap. :)

So DEX was mainly for AC and Reflex save. I really miss TWF yes.. :< but then maybe I can do better with stat damagers, which is not the purpose of this toon hehe :)

Maybe someday when I loot +3DEX tome and level cap goes up to 18 or 20, I can switch feats to fit TWF in, hopefully :)

About the damage, as I broke down in the OP, the base damage (first red numbers) will be around 35 with full buffs.
Considering rather easy-to-make Tier2 G.Axe, it adds like everage +10(holy+Acid) on top of it. So non-crit damage will be like 45ish.
On crit it will be around 130.(+5 GS Tier2, holy+acid+acidBurst) I think it's not too bad for a sub-melee toon who still can lay down BBs. Basic idea is hack slash with BB, with high AC and evasion so... :)

This will have -1 WIS compared to any non-human 16 cleric with starting WIS 18. (-2 if human with 18WIS)
And when a monk splashed builds boosts his/her WIS by 2, this one can do that too.

So.. my answer will be like.. "This build can do anything well, but not just like min-maxed builds out there."
And I think I can stay with that cause I've seen a lot of not-min/maxed characters do well enough.

[Lithic]

Awesome comment about the SF:Intimidate!!! I can't believe that I didn't include it!
I'll edit the build immediately and drop a Toughness :) I am a true fan of SF:Intimidate!

About Empower Healing, I guess I will just use Maximize or Empower for it instead actually. Not much SP-efficient, but some items (like in the new raids) give % decrease bonus to SP consumption on Empower or Maximize, so I guess using those items will help the SP management a little. (True there's Efficient Empower Healing items in the game too, but those items doesn't affect BB so... I think it's close if not even)

CE is quite a nice idea, thought about that for a while, but then I have to bother with switching it back on everytime I use any spells... :< That could be annoying I guessed. Dodge isn't bad at all actually. Will think about that too.

Thanks for your thoughts :D

Just be aware that empower costs 15 spell points, you don't get anthing to reduce the cost as a cleric, and only gives a +50% effect. This does NOT affect the Heal spell, and neither does maximize. That means at best you will be casting heals for 285. Great for a 300hp cleric, not awesome for a 500hp one, and that assumes you have a superior devotion/potency 6 item. Once you spend the 10 action points and get the emp. healing item from the raid (i forget which one), your emp. healing costs 4 spell points. Also consider that you will use healing spells much more than bladebarrier (or I would hope so on a melee cleric build hehe).

Now I am a big fan of max+emp on a sorc, but on a cleric its rather wasted for just bladebarrier, especially since no monster has a significant resistance to it (unlike firewall).

[iruka41]

And iruka41:
The reason I suggested two handed fighting feats is that it seemed like you were planning on using Greataxes

I can't use a shield as a monk in robe, so yeah that's right I think I'll stick with Great Axes :)
But that I've switched a Toughness with SF:Intimidate, I'm really running outta feat slots though lol.
Currently I got 2 Toughnesses, I can see I don't NEED them thanks to the Minos Legens.
But do you see those extra glancing blows are worth 32HP though? I haven't tried THF feats recently, especially not up to the 3rd feat(GTHF), so I actually am just guessing that it's not much efficient. But if you have any better idea let me know. I want to try those out if I feel comfortable without multiple Toughness :)

[iruka41]

Just be aware that empower costs 15 spell points, you don't get anthing to reduce the cost as a cleric, and only gives a +50% effect. This does NOT affect the Heal spell, and neither does maximize. That means at best you will be casting heals for 285. Great for a 300hp cleric, not awesome for a 500hp one, and that assumes you have a superior devotion/potency 6 item. Once you spend the 10 action points and get the emp. healing item from the raid (i forget which one), your emp. healing costs 4 spell points. Also consider that you will use healing spells much more than bladebarrier (or I would hope so on a melee cleric build hehe).

Now I am a big fan of max+emp on a sorc, but on a cleric its rather wasted for just bladebarrier, especially since no monster has a significant resistance to it (unlike firewall).

You got me again! lol
Hmm, never thought about that prob: Emp/Max doesn't affect Heal spell....
And the "4 extra SP" comment was very much convincing...
Maybe I will switch Empower into Emp.Healing. More survivability! Yay :>

[Lithic]

You got me again! lol
Hmm, never thought about that prob: Emp/Max doesn't affect Heal spell....
And the "4 extra SP" comment was very much convincing...
Maybe I will switch Empower into Emp.Healing. More survivability! Yay :>

Well since you seem convince-able, let me tell you about the wonders of the feats athletic and skill focus: listen...








just kidding. Hope you have fun with your cleric :D

[iruka41]

Updated Intimidate breakdown.
I guess it can go up to 52 self-buffed.
Pretty high, right? :D

[Xyfiel]

Nice to see us working on similiar builds again Iruka. I went rogue with trapsmithing, you went more battlecleric.
Being I am still stuck on my deployment, let me/us know how it works out.

[Torron]

Will you still get your wisdom bonus to armor class from monk while wielding a greataxe?

[maddmatt70]

Will you still get your wisdom bonus to armor class from monk while wielding a greataxe?

Yes.

[iruka41]

Will you still get your wisdom bonus to armor class from monk while wielding a greataxe?

Yeah, as per DDO and P&P rules, you don't lose your WIS AC bonus as long as you're not wearing armor/shield, and not encumbered, etc. Types of weapon doesn't affect it.

However when you're not using monk weapons, you can't use monk stances or accumulate Ki, also can't get the BAB bonus (DDO version of Flurry of Blows), which is not a big deal in this build :)

[iruka41]

Nice to see us working on similiar builds again Iruka. I went rogue with trapsmithing, you went more battlecleric.
Being I am still stuck on my deployment, let me/us know how it works out.

Sure I will :)
Currently I'm working on my rogue, waiting for this build to become more precise.
A lot of things have changed since the initial design hehe :)
It's always good to post in the forum, I get enough feedback to modify flaws.

[maddmatt70]

Yeah, as per DDO and P&P rules, you don't lose your WIS AC bonus as long as you're not wearing armor/shield, and not encumbered, etc. Types of weapon doesn't affect it.


Bah, you actually give explanations for this. After seeing about 50 people ask about this on the forum and 50+ other people provide the same answer to this question I just chalk it up as people who don't do their homework. What have monks been out like 3 months..

You are too nice...

[iruka41]

Bah, you actually give explanations for this. After seeing about 50 people ask about this on the forum and 50+ other people provide the same answer to this question I just chalk it up as people who don't do their homework. What have monks been out like 3 months..

You are too nice...

I am nice only in MY thread ;)
But yeah mostly agreed with ya.

[samho]

Updated Intimidate breakdown.
I guess it can go up to 52 self-buffed.
Pretty high, right? :D

The only possible way to get you full rank of Intimidate was start with INT 10 with +2 tome, or INT 11 with +1 Tome -- if you also want to max your concentration rank.

First level of fighter could net you 4 rank of Intimidate, after that, you will have 4*2(monk) + 2*13(cleric) = 34 skill point if you got 10 INT at level 2 and higher. Since Intimidate was neither cleric's class skill nor monk's, you have to spend 30 skill points to keep intimidatie max which leave you 4 points for the concentration. In this case, you will have 6 concentration at level 16 IF you put point on concentration at first level (fighter, with cross-class penalty), or 4.

I will not recommend any battle cleric / mage goes Intimidate route if he can't hit INT 12 at level 2.




Then speaking about Empower Healing -- if the Empower Healing-ed Heal isn't something you do concern (i.e. you only want your Mass Cure better), forget the idea of Empower Healing -- Maximize Mass Cure has the same sp/hp effectiveness, ( Actually, if you got the glove from VoD, you Mass Cure still preform better than Empower Healing + Lorrik's Neck + Empower Healing Enhancement Rank II).

Here's the spreadsheet (http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pSvnHaLR7PL5k8n5jloAwNg&hl=en") I made for comparing the effectiveness of Mass Cure. (Include various feat, equipment, enhancement)

[maddmatt70]

Then speaking about Empower Healing -- if the Empower Healing-ed Heal isn't something you do concern (i.e. you only want your Mass Cure better), forget the idea of Empower Healing -- Maximize Mass Cure has the same sp/hp effectiveness, ( Actually, if you got the glove from VoD, you Mass Cure still preform better than Empower Healing + Lorrik's Neck + Empower Healing Enhancement Rank II).

Here's the spreadsheet (http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pSvnHaLR7PL5k8n5jloAwNg&hl=en") I made for comparing the effectiveness of Mass Cure. (Include various feat, equipment, enhancement)

Can I just say huh and no I dont feel like cranking it out and doing the mathematics on your figures, but I can say you should also factor in over healing. For instance if I cast mass cures with empower healing 14 times in a raid and somebody casts maximized mass curres 12 times and nobody dies then the empower healing saves mana. That I think is more to the point is how many more times in a quest do you cast a mass spell more with empower healing in comparison to maximize..

[samho]

Can I just say huh and no I dont feel like cranking it out and doing the mathematics on your figures, but I can say you should also factor in over healing. For instance if I cast mass cures with empower healing 14 times in a raid and somebody casts maximized mass curres 12 times and nobody dies then the empower healing saves mana. That I think is more to the point is how many more times in a quest do you cast a mass spell more with empower healing in comparison to maximize..

Wasn't the advantage of the Empower Healing was it's effectiveness but not the over healing thing? ;) (Or said, it's what many people think about it is?) Over healing will just happen everywhere, not just maximize mass cure; you will still encounter it at empower healing. (I do have cleric with both feat, so I do know that it does happen from time to time)


Now let's see the avg healing amount -- while Empower Healing MCMW does an avg 74.1 point heal, an maximize MCMW does an avg 98.8 point heal, I do have a hard time to believe that the second one will have much greater chance for over healing (especially in nasty encounter in end game while most melee has 400 around HP, and caster/cleric has 200~300HP); I would also say that the risk of over healing via maximize mass cure will be cover by the risk of member get killed by empower healing mass cure ;)


Don't get me wrong, I didn't say empower healing has no advantage -- if you do like to see an effectiveness single target HEAL, empower healing was still the way to go; however, it's too easy to over heal by using the Empower Healing Heal (unless you only group with those who running around at 500+ HP)

[maddmatt70]

Wasn't the advantage of the Empower Healing was it's effectiveness but not the over healing thing? ;) (Or said, it's what many people think about it is?) Over healing will just happen everywhere, not just maximize mass cure; you will still encounter it at empower healing. (I do have cleric with both feat, so I do know that it does happen from time to time)


Now let's see the avg healing amount -- while Empower Healing MCMW does an avg 74.1 point heal, an maximize MCMW does an avg 98.8 point heal, I do have a hard time to believe that the second one will have much greater chance for over healing (especially in nasty encounter in end game while most melee has 400 around HP, and caster/cleric has 200~300HP); I would also say that the risk of over healing via maximize mass cure will be cover by the risk of member get killed by empower healing mass cure ;)




I don't agree with your mathematical perspective. I see empower healing only costing 4 more spell points vs. maximized costing many more for a cleric and as I said before a healer casts the same number of maximized cure mass spells as empowered healing cure mass spells in a quest so maximized ends up costing more sp.

[samho]

I don't agree with your mathematical perspective. I see empower healing only costing 4 more spell points vs. maximized costing many more for a cleric and as I said before a healer casts the same number of maximized cure mass spells as empowered healing cure mass spells in a quest so maximized ends up costing more sp.


Let's not take any discount from enchantment and item and discuss it first:

Empower Healing cost 10 EXTRA spell point than original spell, while Maximize spell cost 25 EXTRA spell point. While 10 sounds suprior than 25, you need to realize it's *EXTRA* -- means you have to take your original spell point cost into account.

MCMW is the first choice of most cleric (since, Greater Potency VII wasn't that common as Superior Potency VI do, and sometimes you just don't like to dual wield Greater Potency VII AND Super Potency VI), and it's base cost was 35.

Which make the Empowered Healing MCMW cost you 45 sp (for avg 74.1 hp), while Maximize MCMW cost you 60 sp (for avg 98.8 hp), and their cure amount vs spell point has the same ratio -- Maximize version cure 1/3 better than Empower Healing version while cost 1/3 more spell point -- any question about this fact?

Now if we speaking about MCSW (with Greater Potency VII), Empower Healing MCSW cost you 50sp (for avg 85hp) and Maximize MCSW cost you 65 sp (for avg 113.4 hp), because the base cost was higher in this case, Maximize does provide better performance .

So if my spreadsheet is correct, the only way Empower Healing Mass Cure to beat Maximize version was take rank 3 Empower healing Enhancement with Lorrik's necklace (compare with Maximize Mass Cure with Glove of the Glacier) -- If you just take 2 Rank of Empower Healing Enhancement with necklace, or You have no necklace but spend 12 AP on Rank III, the Empower Healing version of Mass Cure was slightly better than Maximize version on MCMW, but get beat down at MCSW -- because you have to take BASE cost into account.


If someone as a healer cast the same amount (not spell point wise, mind you) of Maximize Mass Cure with the healer cast Empower Healing Mass Cure, he is healing MORE HP -- that's been said, if both of you heal the same amount of HP, the cleric should cast much less Maximize Mass Cure than Empower Healing Mass Cure -- assume both of them spend the same spell point. Anything else was the over heal issue, which is beyond our concern.

[samho]

If you look into the spreadsheet and use the best scenario to calculate, you will notice the base scenario for Empower Healing (Neck + enhancement rank III) can heal 3479hp (mass cure via single target) with 1800 sp, while maximize (with glove) can heal 3346.2 Hp with the same sp -- it's more like you save ONE mass cure, by 12 Action Point :) ( Again, I'm not saying you shouldn't do so to purchase the cleric Empower Healing Enhancement rank III, what I want to say was it can be use somewhere without heavy loss)

The same goes Empower Healing vs Maximize for mass cure.

[maddmatt70]

If someone as a healer cast the same amount (not spell point wise, mind you) of Maximize Mass Cure with the healer cast Empower Healing Mass Cure, he is healing MORE HP -- that's been said, if both of you heal the same amount of HP, the cleric should cast much less Maximize Mass Cure than Empower Healing Mass Cure -- assume both of them spend the same spell point. Anything else was the over heal issue, which is beyond our concern.

It is this statement that I disagree with.. In practicality a cleric will cast basically the same amount of empower healing mass cure spells as maximized cure spells. This has more to do with the amount of damage melee take and when during that damage taken a cleric casts a mass cure spell and how they use scrolls and the like.

The next question is why have empower healing or maximize at all? This is because empower healing costs so little and the amount of damage a melee takes and when a cleric casts a mass cure spell it does save mana because they will cast less empowered healing mass cure spells then non metamagic mass cure spells and a cleric may need a bigger healing punch to heal the tank in trouble and prevent death.

[samho]

It is this statement that I disagree with.. In practicality a cleric will cast basically the same amount of empower healing mass cure spells as maximized cure spells. This has more to do with the amount of damage melee take and when during that damage taken a cleric casts a mass cure spell and how they use scrolls and the like.


If a cleric cast the same number of Maximize Mass Cure with another cleric with Empower Healing Mass Cure, it's either their healing is unbalanced (too much burden on Maximize Mass Cure, because he heal MORE hp back) or the cleric with Maximize simply over heal every time (Since his mass cure heal MORE hp, he suppose to wait more hp drop to cast it)



The next question is why have empower healing or maximize at all? This is because empower healing costs so little and the amount of damage a melee takes and when a cleric casts a mass cure spell it does save mana because they will cast less empowered healing mass cure spells then non metamagic mass cure spells and a cleric may need a bigger healing punch to heal the tank in trouble and prevent death.

By answer this question, I would like to point it out -- the "little cost" has to add up with original cost, which is the pitfall. You can't compare the "little cost" with original (non-metamagic) spell, you should take ANOTHER metamagic spell to compare -- which is why we discussing here, right? It's without doubt that both of them are better than non-metamagic version.


But fear not, Empower Healing could outshine Maximize again after new level cap raise -- simply because the Maximize spell will not work with Mass Heal :) But heh, if the level 9 spell available for use, I doubt many cleric will use metamagic to improve it -- even the non-metamagic version (238 at level 17, 252 at level 18, cost 50 sp) was sufficient for most case :p

[iruka41]

Okay okay, I'll try both of them lol.

[maddmatt70]

But fear not, Empower Healing could outshine Maximize again after new level cap raise -- simply because the Maximize spell will not work with Mass Heal :) But heh, if the level 9 spell available for use, I doubt many cleric will use metamagic to improve it -- even the non-metamagic version (238 at level 17, 252 at level 18, cost 50 sp) was sufficient for most case :p

I agree with this statement. There is a strong possibility that I will get rid of empower healing at the next cap raise because I will never use it with mass heal because unmetamagiced it will still do the job such that it will not be worth the enhancement points and the 4 sp for every spell cast. I don't currently have heighten or empower on my capped cleric and I wouldn't mind having the two feats.