Is it too early for the Barb of the future?

[Cold_Stele]

Following the anouncements from GenCon and a conversation with my buddy Debo/Luka I wanted to post my thoughts on my next toon.

There’s nothing new about the idea of Tempest Barbs (Barb 14/Ranger 6), it’s just that as the build will only shine at level cap no one’s doing it at the moment. I did actually see one of these in a Shroud PUG the other day – notched up a grand total of 2 kills… :rolleyes:

As the cap will raise to 20 in mod 9 (Jan 2009) I’m thinking it’s maybe time for us to start rolling – even though we’ll be missing out on a lot initially.

The big limiting factor to the build is that even if you put off getting your final Rgr level until 18th (the last opportunity you get to take GTWF) there’s still no way you’re going to get Crit Rage II until you hit 20th.

So here’s a rough draft, apologies for any discrepancies –

Human
Barb 10/Ranger 6
Neutral Good or Chaotic Good

STR 18 + 4 level ups
DEX 16 (go for 15 DEX/CON if you think STWF will never be implemented)
CON 14
INT 8
WIS 8 (will require Existential Stalemate I item for +6 Wis, probably with Wizardry VI)
CHA 8

Skills – max Intimidate, Jump, Spot, splash Tumble and Balance

1 - Rgr 1 – Dodge, Power Attack
2 - Rgr 2 – TWF (auto)
3 - Rgr 3 - Mobility
4 - Rgr 4
5 - Rgr 5
6 - Rgr 6 – ITWF (auto), Spring Attack, Tempest Enhancement
7 - Barb 1
8 - Barb 2
9 - Barb 3 – Imp Crit Pierce
10 - Barb 4
11 - Barb 5
12 - Barb 6 - GTWF
13 - Barb 7
14 - Barb 8
15 - Barb 9 – Stunning Blow (or go dwarf and take PA now)
16 - Barb 10

What you gain from not going pure Barb -

- Tempest (which when combined with Crit Rage later will give you the best DPS in the game… so far).
- TWF and ITWF granted automatically.
- DieHard & ManyShot
- 2 Favored Enemies and Favored Damage II enhancement so +6 damage against Evil Outsiders (the equivalent of +12 STR!!!).
- Ram’s Might, +1 to hit, +3 damage (the equivalent of +2/6 STR until you get it dispelled between Rages).

More importantly, what you lose from not going pure Barb –

- 34 Hit Points (24 from the Rgr levels, 10 from having to take Wizardry VI instead of extra HP at tier I of your Existential Stalemate I item).
- Greater Rage (+2 STR/CON, +1 Will Save), Extend Rage IV, Power Rage IV and Critical Rage I not available until 18th level (BIG drawbacks).
- Indomitable Will and Critical Rage II not available until 20th (BIGGER drawback)
- No access at all to Tireless Rage or the final Rage feat (+2 STR).

So there you have it, no one’s going to say this is an original idea - we’ve all had it in mind.

The question is – is this build viable now, or should we wait until next year to start rolling it?

[maddmatt70]

It looks like they will not be raising the level cap in mod8, but rather mod 9 and at that point all the way to level 20. I don't know if this affects your build design/decision?

[Cold_Stele]

I knew the level cap wasn't going up until mod 9 (Jan 2009) and had heard 20 (but couldn't quite believe it).

Level 20 and Crit Rage II in 4 or 5 months means it's time everyone should start rolling their Tempest Barbs...

[Mhykke]

I've been waiting for barb/ranger for a long time. I'm still going to wait, for half orcs.

[Gunga]

I've been waiting for barb/ranger for a long time. I'm still going to wait, for half orcs.

Yep, me too.

[Roman]

I dont see any advantage to starting this build from now. In fact, the overwhelmingly obvious superiority of this build makes me wonder if it will be allowed as we currently envision it. Bumping lvl requirements on feats, or imposing stat requirements for feats that would allow for one or the other (Tempest or CritII), but not both could possibly be added. Or better yet, other classes may be enhanced in a way that would be more desireable than this build

Mod 9 is a long ways off, and a lot can change between now and then. Personally I'm waiting until mod 9 at least hits Risia before I start tinkering with it.

[Petro]

I've been waiting for barb/ranger for a long time. I'm still going to wait, for half orcs.

Amen brother

[MondoGrunday]

made this build already. spiritmonger is at 14 barb/2 ranger with my last levels saved for ranger. this is an old concept for a build, not new. i called it my raged ranger. love many shot with rage, its just deadly.

[Lithic]

made this build already. spiritmonger is at 14 barb/2 ranger with my last levels saved for ranger. this is an old concept for a build, not new. i called it my raged ranger. love many shot with rage, its just deadly.

14/2 works fine now, but those that go with 6 ranger levels at or before lvl 18 will save a feat over the 14/2 builds. Why? Because you wont get a free ITWF till lvl 20, and that means either you make due without G2WF (which would be quite stupid), or you need to waste a feat before lvl 18 to get ITWF, so you can take GTWF at lvl 18.

I predict much rerolling of lvl 14/2 barb/rangers in the future...

[Lewcipher]

Following the anouncements from GenCon and a conversation with my buddy Debo/Luka I wanted to post my thoughts on my next toon.

There’s nothing new about the idea of Tempest Barbs (Barb 14/Ranger 6), it’s just that as the build will only shine at level cap no one’s doing it at the moment. I did actually see one of these in a Shroud PUG the other day – notched up a grand total of 2 kills… :rolleyes:

As the cap will raise (to 18?) in mod 9 (Jan 2009?) I’m thinking it’s maybe time for us to start rolling – even though we’ll be missing out on a lot initially.

The big limiting factor to the build is that even if you put off getting your final Rgr level until 18th (the last opportunity you get to take GTWF) there’s still no way you’re going to get Crit Rage II until you hit 20th.

So here’s a rough draft, apologies for any discrepancies –

Human
Barb 10/Ranger 6
Neutral Good or Chaotic Good

STR 18 + 4 level ups
DEX 16
CON 14
INT 8
WIS 8 (will require Existential Stalemate I item for +6 Wis, probably with Wizardry VI)
CHA 8

Skills – max Intimidate, Jump, Spot, splash Tumble and Balance

1 - Rgr 1 – Dodge, Power Attack
2 - Rgr 2 – TWF (auto)
3 - Rgr 3 - Mobility
4 - Rgr 4
5 - Rgr 5
6 - Rgr 6 – ITWF (auto), Spring Attack, Tempest Enhancement
7 - Barb 1
8 - Barb 2
9 - Barb 3 – Imp Crit Pierce
10 - Barb 4
11 - Barb 5
12 - Barb 6 - GTWF
13 - Barb 7
14 - Barb 8
15 - Barb 9 – Stunning Blow (or go dwarf and take PA now)
16 - Barb 10

What you gain from not going pure Barb -

- Tempest (which when combined with Crit Rage later will give you the best DPS in the game… so far).
- TWF and ITWF granted automatically.
- DieHard & ManyShot
- 2 Favored Enemies and Favored Damage II enhancement so +3(?) damage against Evil Outsiders (the equivalent of +6 STR).
- Ram’s Might, +2 to hit, +3 damage (the equivalent of +4/6 STR until you get it dispelled between Rages).

More importantly, what you lose from not going pure Barb –

- 34 Hit Points (24 from the Rgr levels, 10 from having to take Wizardry VI instead of extra HP at tier I of your Existential Stalemate I item).
- Greater Rage (+2 STR/CON, +1 Will Save), Extend Rage IV, Power Rage IV and Critical Rage I not available until 18th level (BIG drawbacks).
- Indomitable Will and Critical Rage II not available until 20th (BIGGER drawback)
- No access at all to Tireless Rage or the final Rage feat (+2 STR).

So there you have it, no one’s going to say this is an original idea - we’ve all had it in mind.

The question is – is this build viable now, or should we wait until next year to start rolling it?

Don't forget at level 20 you will have +5 level up points

[Hadrian]

I would go -1 dex and +1 con at creation. You only need 17 dex for GTWF, and if you're thinking of putting it off until late, I am sure you'll have found a +2 tome before the level cap goes up.

The benefit of +1 con is that you get an uneven number of human enhancement points, so +1 enhancement +2 tome +6 item comes out to an even number. This results in less wasted creation points and more hit points.

The downside is that it might make it difficult to take STWF if it should ever come out, unless +4 tomes also come out or you place your final level up point into dex and get a +3 tome. As your build stands, though, you'd still need that +3 tome.

Also, though it works out about the same, your ram's might and favored enemy numbers are off.

Two Favored Enemy feats = +4 to damage to favored enemies. Favored Enemy Damage II = +2 for a total of +6 damage from FE.
However, as a level 6 ranger your Ram's Might is only +2 str and +1 damage, for a total of +2 damage from RM.

[Cold_Stele]

Two Favored Enemy feats = +4 to damage to favored enemies. Favored Enemy Damage II = +2 for a total of +6 damage from FE.
However, as a level 6 ranger your Ram's Might is only +2 str and +1 damage, for a total of +2 damage from RM.

Thanks for the corrections on FE - are you sure about the Ram's Might though? I thought that caster level was screwed up in DDO and worked off total levels instead of class levels as in pnp.

I agree that a 15 starting Dex is probably better (as I personally doubt STWF will ever appear in the game) but I'm overcautious with builds and would hate to have to start pumping level up points into Dex at a later to stage if it was ever introduced.

As for people waiting to roll Half Orcs - unless the devs give them Half Orc Power Attack enhancements then WF will still have the highest DPS. Dwarf Axe Attack and Damage II will give the same benefit a Half Orc's +4 STR will get them...

[Borror0]

The question is – is this build viable now, or should we wait until next year to start rolling it?

Wouldn't 14/2 or 11/5 be better at current cap? (Too lazy to do the DPS maths.)

[Cold_Stele]

Wouldn't 14/2 or 11/5 be better at current cap? (Too lazy to do the DPS maths.)

The problem is that you need to get your 6th Ranger level (and free ITWF) by lvl 15 in order to then take GTWF.

Given that level cap raise is only 5 months away the safest option is to play the long game rather than put too much focus on obtaining Crit Rage I and II too early.


this is an old concept for a build, not new.

That's what I said too, right at the start - I even put it in big bold letters. :p

[Borror0]

The problem is that you need to get your 6th Ranger level (and free ITWF) by lvl 15 in order to then take GTWF.

Nope, you pick up ITWF and GTWF and respec the feat out when they increase the level cap.


Given that level cap raise is only 5 months away

Only 5 months away?

[Hadrian]

Thanks for the corrections on FE - are you sure about the Ram's Might though? I thought that caster level was screwed up in DDO and worked off total levels instead of class levels as in pnp.

Well, if you go 10 levels of wizard, and then take the character to level 16 with a different class, do you get resist 30?

It works off of class levels in this case, and it works off of class levels for ram's might.

[Cold_Stele]

Only 5 months away?

Yup, only 5 months - I don't think that's long at all. Seriously you're missing what with a Barb10/Rgr 6 split until then - Crit Rage II, +2 STR and CON, +4 Will save?

In return you get Tempest I at Ranger 6 (which is arguably as good as Crit Rage) and you're doing +6 damage to Lawful Outsiders from FE (that's a large proportion of every mob you're facing in the current end game). Plus you're getting your Ram's Might too.

I don't consider that a bad trade off for a few months.

As for respeccing - I deliberately left that out. I wasn't sure if trying to explain the lengthy process involved would be a little much. I'm not aware of any builds where you have extensive feat swapping suggested later on and I certainly didn't want to set a precedence. I'm actually going through it at the moment as the Barb I was rolling originally as pure was at level 9 when I decided I'd go Tempest - it's a pain in the a$$ getting rid of everything and having to swap in temporary feats too. It's certainly resulted in a 3 day stretch where I was so gimp I didn't want to play him.

Hadrian - thanks for the clarification re. caster level - it does looks like Rgr 6 is the threshold for an extra +1 damage from Ram's Might though, so it'll be +2 STR, +3 Damage total. DeadlyGazebo says that either the extra damage with caster level or the spell's description will be changed at some point.

[Hadrian]

+1 damage per 4 levels of ranger.

Increases at 8, 12, 16

[debo]

+1 damage per 4 levels of ranger.

Increases at 8, 12, 16

If that is true what a ridiculously overpowered spell lol

[dior10276]

I have 10/6 barb/ranger, loving it. The crit range will be icing on the cake. My starting stats were similar to initial post and human as well for extra feat. About the only time I am not kill count leader is if full barb is in group or quest is best for duel wielding banisher, then could be rogue or ranger if he has those items. I am sitting at 426 hit points atm and have crippling chain shirt from Hound. It definitely adds to the benefit for this character to be in any group.

[Hadrian]

If that is true what a ridiculously overpowered spell lol

It doesn't start at +2/+2. It starts at +2/+1, so it doesn't reach the +2/+3 he was talking about until level 12. It is a powerful spell, but only if you take mostly ranger levels.

If they made it match it's description, the 10/6 fighter or rogue tempest builds would actually gain a point of damage, while all of the 11/x/y would remain the same. Level 16 rangers would lose 2 damage.

[debo]

It doesn't start at +2/+2. It starts at +2/+1, so it doesn't reach the +2/+3 he was talking about until level 12. It is a powerful spell, but only if you take mostly ranger levels.

If they made it match it's description, the 10/6 fighter or rogue tempest builds would actually gain a point of damage, while all of the 11/x/y would remain the same. Level 16 rangers would lose 2 damage.

I was always under the assumption that Ram's Might was +2 to str (which equals +1 to damage) AND +2 to damage for a total of +3 to damage. Basically +1 to attack/+3 damage.

The damage part of Ram's Might increasing based on your ranger levels is news to me.

[The_Ick]

I have been going back and forth about this one too.

I have pretty much decided to wait to roll up this kind of toon mostly because i know they are going to add enhancement lines for fighters and i have a fishy feeling that their might be something that pushes Temptest into the 2nd slot on the "power" chain. Every patch pushes a different class into the "power" spot. 2 mods ago it was casters, last mod it was Temptest builds. We have 2 more mods before we get a level cap. Who knows that the "power" slot will be then.

[Hadrian]

Well, I was speaking to a person with a 7something /4 ranger who told me that he was receiving +2 total damage from ram's might.

I spoke to Illuminati and later confirmed when my own ranger reached level 12 that I was getting a total of +4 damage from ram's might.

I have not personally checked the level 8 or 16 versions, although I first learned of this from a level 16 ranger stating that he received the full benefit of +2 str and +4 additional damage. I do not remember who this was, though.

[debo]

I have not personally checked the level 8 or 16 versions, although I first learned of this from a level 16 ranger stating that he received the full benefit of +2 str and +4 additional damage

Well if that is true the developers are on crack. I hope they acknowledged it as a bug and are planning on fixing that because that is insane.

+5 damage= +10 strength then throw in a ranger with maxed favored enemy enhancements AND tempest...

lol wow

I have a 13 ranger/2 fighter/1 rogue... Maybe I should test it out later tonight... never really cared to check always believed the spell followed the description.

*EDIT

You are right. My ranger gets a +4 total damage modifier from Ram's Might. If he was a pure level 16 Ranger I would assume it would be +5.

[Hadrian]

Yes, it is something they should at least look at.

It does have the major drawback of having to be pure ranger, but in current DDO, that is not much of a drawback.

The benefit in terms of damage is equal to a fully enhanced barbarian rage (excluding crit rage). While you don't get the huge boost to hit points, you also don't take the hit to armor class.

[ToyVIP]

ok, this may slow down some of the arguments some people are making against these builds, or it may flair them up worse...

I currently have a 8brb/6rgr/2ftr on argonesson...

and i like to say, she holds her own with any barb that i go into battle beside...

yes, she has no crit rage enhancement, but the speed at which she dual weilds makes up for that lack of the whatever perccentage chance of a crit (dependant on weapon/s used)
She also has a higher standing ac than a lot of other barbs (which isnt anywhere near max cause im too lazy to farm stuff)
dual weilding dwarvens atm, and all i can see coming is watch out when i finally manage to farm enough ingreds for dual greensteels.
I have had issues over time with being declined from groups due to the build, but those that have grouped with this toon, usually never decline her again, and are amazed at the end result.

at endgame lvl 20 cap, she will be 12brb/6rgr/2ftr.

I did toss up about taking the fighter levels, but in the end i chose to as the extra feats improved the build... she's also currently holding out for the +2 dex tome to take the final twf feat (started with dex 15)

I can put up the full build if people are interested, but as atm we cant get in game, that will have to wait lol.

Accuse me, abuse me, rip my build to shreds when it goes up, i really dont care... it does as it was meant to do, has surprised my guild, a lot of other people on argo, and holds her own with the best in shroud/hound/vod

[Draclaud]

I think you're forgetting the Critical Rage III, and Tempest II enhancement lines you'll need level 18 Barb and Level 16 Ranger to get :rolleyes: Pure speculation of course.

[Hadrian]

yes, she has no crit rage enhancement, but the speed at which she dual weilds makes up for that lack of the whatever perccentage chance of a crit (dependant on weapon/s used)
She also has a higher standing ac than a lot of other barbs ...


The thing is, the first benefit is from the 6 ranger, regardless of what the rest of the build takes.

The second benefit is typical of most fighter, paladin or ranger builds.

It just sounds like you tried to make a barbarian who isn't a barbarian.

Sure, you can kill stuff quick with tempest, but does 8 barb/2 fighter have anything to do with that? Not really.

[MondoGrunday]

14/2 works fine now, but those that go with 6 ranger levels at or before lvl 18 will save a feat over the 14/2 builds. Why? Because you wont get a free ITWF till lvl 20, and that means either you make due without G2WF (which would be quite stupid), or you need to waste a feat before lvl 18 to get ITWF, so you can take GTWF at lvl 18.

I predict much rerolling of lvl 14/2 barb/rangers in the future...


why so much rerolling with a feat issue that can EASILY be swapped in and out. i chose 14/2 now because i dual wield and wanted the lvl 14 crit range so my rapiers hit at 13. with 2 levels of ranger i heal easier have bow str so my raged bonus goes to my bow. i have manyshot because being ranger gave me twf for free and freed up a feat for manyshot or its pre reqs. use the character builder 1st and it saves you the rerolls. if you have to reroll due to a change in the game , well that happens for every class.

many shot + rage + wop longbow = ownage

i will just finish out to 20 taking ranger levels to 6.
really not a difficult build to make.

[ToyVIP]

i have stated that the 2ftr was only taken for feats... same as a lot of other builds around this game.

the 8 barb still gives me rages, and some enhancements, barbarian con and toughness enhancements, and yes, raging DOES make a difference...


honestly hadrian... why dont you go back and read an earlier post of yours that pretty much supported the multiclass tempest barb before you turn around and criticise my build as being useless... seeing as my build has those EXACT things in it...

[Cold_Stele]

I think you're forgetting the Critical Rage III, and Tempest II enhancement lines you'll need level 18 Barb and Level 16 Ranger to get :rolleyes: Pure speculation of course.

Crit Rage II is the most broken, over-powered enhancement in the game, and the devs know it. There's no way they're gonna screw up even more and bring in Crit Rage III.

[Hadrian]

i have stated that the 2ftr was only taken for feats... same as a lot of other builds around this game.

the 8 barb still gives me rages, and some enhancements, barbarian con and toughness enhancements, and yes, raging DOES make a difference...


honestly hadrian... why dont you go back and read an earlier post of yours that pretty much supported the multiclass tempest barb before you turn around and criticise my build as being useless... seeing as my build has those EXACT things in it...

I'm pretty sure that I said the plusses you listed were more a benefit of the 6 ranger than anything else. I didn't say anything close to "your build is useless."

You seem to be the one insisting people want to call the build useless.

[DelScorcho]

I've been working up one this last week, and have him at 6/5 on the verge of 12. Some comments on going 6 ranger 10 barb - they are extremely feat starved. After the tempest feats, you have three feats remaining. Improved crit, GTWF, and power attack. No toughness until the minos helm, and no oversized 2 weapon fighting. Secondly, the lack of evasion will be a big drawback. The question is whether a 2 level splash of rogue would be better here, even though it would mean giving up Crit Rage II, or 3 more levels of ranger, which would give 4 barkskin, evasion, and 20 resists.

For anyone running one of these up, I'd recommend going 1 ranger, than six levels of barb to toughen him up, playing him like a traditional 2HF. I'd use the 6th level feat as toughness and respec it for spring attack at 11. That way, when you start dual weilding, you will go straight to GTWF with improved crit. I took the ranger levels first, and he was awfully squishy until level 11. He still doesn't hit nearly as well as a barb, but he is improving each level.

Final build would be either 12 barb/6 Ranger/2 rogue 14 barb/ 6 ranger, or 11 Barb, 9 ranger.

[Gryphton]

I'm working on mine too. He's only level 2 right now. 1 ranger and 1 barb. I did think about the usefullness of taking 2 rogue and giving up improv crit II, simply for the evasion aspect. Allot of folks seem to think that they will increase the level for improve crit rage, granted allot of people have been saying for a long time that they are removing it and this and that. I figure I'm going to go 14 barb/2 ranger for the time being, and if some game change happens that makes this build impossible I can just add the 2 levels of rogue and get evasion. That would end in 16/2/2 barb/ranger/rogue.

[Vandos]

Why bother taking 6 ranger levels for tempest? Tempest gives 10% melee alacrity and +2 AC, if a barb is dual wielding and raging then you are never going to have a decent AC so forget it. A 16 barb with gtwf, toughness, imp crit and oversize twf wearing a jorgundals collar attacks at the exact same rate as a 16 tempest ranger. I would rather have the 16 levels of barb for enhancements to your rages and crit range than the few ranger spells +2 AC and spring attack.

[Spookyaction]

Does jorgundals collar stack with haste or tempest ?

[Gryphton]

No at this time, the collar does not stack with tempest or haste. That's the big draw for the tempest barb idea. If the collar stacked the idea would be much less popular I believe.

[Riekan]

I don't understand all these people going 14/2 now and thinking they can swap out feats later. Maybe I'm seeing it wrong, but follow this through with me. At level 16, you'll be 14 barbarian and 2 ranger. You will have TWF from your 2nd ranger level. You've also spent regular feats for ITWF and GTWF. Now the cap goes up, let's say all the way to level 20 in Mod 9. So, level 17 and 18 are ranger, and at level 18 you get your last feat. However, you're only at ranger 4, so you haven't gotten your free ITWF, so you can't spec out ITWF before 18 to get GTWF or whatever else because you would break your TWF feat chain. So, at level 20 when you finally do get ITWF for free, you end up losing that feat as you won't be able to spec out the earlier one you took at a level up. The feat respec system will allow you to spec out the old ITWF only if you also drop GTWF. So, at 19 just before you level to 20, you drop GTWF and ITWF. You level to 20 gaining ITWF but now you've lost GTWF. You have no more new feats to get it from and you can't use a previous feat because you won't have met the prereqs until level 20.

So, as I see it, the ONLY way to make the tempest barbarian work is to make sure you've got your 6th ranger level before or at level 18. At 18, you can take Ranger 6 and then pick up GTWF with your level 18 feat. Any later than that and you lose out on GTWF completely. Unless you just decide to take ranger 6 at level 20 for the tempest enhancement and not care that the free ITWF is meaningless because you already took it at an earlier level, but that just seems overly wasteful to me.

[Cold_Stele]

Prior to taking Rgr 6 a 14/2 would have to respec out ITWF and GTWF, probably with temporary feats.

Once they hit 20 and get Rgr 6, Tempest and ITWF, they just respec in GTWF.

The reason they can do this is that Fred only checks the level of the feat you want to swap out is sufficient to buy the want you want (so you'd have to swap a 12, 15 or 18 one to get GTWF as it's BAB 11+).

Although he checks that you have any prerequsuite feats, what he doesn't care about is the order in which you took them (so he doesn't care if you got your ITWF at lvl 6, lvl 20, or anywhere in between).

On one of my toons once I respecced in Power Attack at lvl 12, then put in Cleave at lvl 3 or so - strictly speaking Fred shouldn't allow this, but he does.

The process is long though, and can result in several days where you feel very gimped.

As for why should Barbs take Tempest?

There's a ton of 14 Barbs/Ftr 2's out there that say one of the biggest benefits of the build is 5/rest +15% Ftr's Haste Boosts. I'll take a permanent +10% over that any day...

[Blazer]

Why bother taking 6 ranger levels for tempest? Tempest gives 10% melee alacrity and +2 AC, if a barb is dual wielding and raging then you are never going to have a decent AC so forget it. A 16 barb with gtwf, toughness, imp crit and oversize twf wearing a jorgundals collar attacks at the exact same rate as a 16 tempest ranger. I would rather have the 16 levels of barb for enhancements to your rages and crit range than the few ranger spells +2 AC and spring attack.

For a barb/ranger, the tempest enhancement is not for the ac bonus, obviously. The tempest barb doesn't need to wear the collar (neck slot having some useful items put there usually), plus he picks up 2 favored enemies at +4 damage (pre-crit) to each and can cast Ram's Might (pre-rage, obviously, and gains +1 to hit, +3 to damage, also pre-crit). The discussion isn't so much about 10 barb/6 ranger as it is 14 barb/6 ranger.

[DelScorcho]

There's a ton of 14 Barbs/Ftr 2's out there that say one of the biggest benefits of the build is 5/rest +15% Ftr's Haste Boosts. I'll take a permanent +10% over that any day...

Of course, if you went 6 Ranger 12 Barb and 2 rogue, you can also get that enhancement, plus sneak attack and evasion. The question is whether these add up to the benefit of Power Crit II.

[Riekan]

Prior to taking Rgr 6 a 14/2 would have to respec out ITWF and GTWF, probably with temporary feats.

Once they hit 20 and get Rgr 6, Tempest and ITWF, they just respec in GTWF.

The reason they can do this is that Fred only checks the level of the feat you want to swap out is sufficient to buy the want you want (so you'd have to swap a 12, 15 or 18 one to get GTWF as it's BAB 11+).

Although he checks that you have any prerequsuite feats, what he doesn't care about is the order in which you took them (so he doesn't care if you got your ITWF at lvl 6, lvl 20, or anywhere in between).

On one of my toons once I respecced in Power Attack at lvl 12, then put in Cleave at lvl 3 or so - strictly speaking Fred shouldn't allow this, but he does.

The process is long though, and can result in several days where you feel very gimped.

As for why should Barbs take Tempest?

There's a ton of 14 Barbs/Ftr 2's out there that say one of the biggest benefits of the build is 5/rest +15% Ftr's Haste Boosts. I'll take a permanent +10% over that any day...


Nice, I wasn't aware that Fred wasn't smart enough to check on the level the prereqs became available. That makes life somewhat easier. Apparently he's not very smart for a mind flare, is he?

[MondoGrunday]

I don't understand all these people going 14/2 now and thinking they can swap out feats later. Maybe I'm seeing it wrong, but follow this through with me. At level 16, you'll be 14 barbarian and 2 ranger. You will have TWF from your 2nd ranger level. You've also spent regular feats for ITWF and GTWF. Now the cap goes up, let's say all the way to level 20 in Mod 9. So, level 17 and 18 are ranger, and at level 18 you get your last feat. However, you're only at ranger 4, so you haven't gotten your free ITWF, so you can't spec out ITWF before 18 to get GTWF or whatever else because you would break your TWF feat chain. So, at level 20 when you finally do get ITWF for free, you end up losing that feat as you won't be able to spec out the earlier one you took at a level up. The feat respec system will allow you to spec out the old ITWF only if you also drop GTWF. So, at 19 just before you level to 20, you drop GTWF and ITWF. You level to 20 gaining ITWF but now you've lost GTWF. You have no more new feats to get it from and you can't use a previous feat because you won't have met the prereqs until level 20.

So, as I see it, the ONLY way to make the tempest barbarian work is to make sure you've got your 6th ranger level before or at level 18. At 18, you can take Ranger 6 and then pick up GTWF with your level 18 feat. Any later than that and you lose out on GTWF completely. Unless you just decide to take ranger 6 at level 20 for the tempest enhancement and not care that the free ITWF is meaningless because you already took it at an earlier level, but that just seems overly wasteful to me.


i have gone thru pretty much this scenerio already, albeit by mistake. I took the itwf feat before the free one. you just go back and take them out one by one to get back to the one you get for free. costs a bit of cash and uses a lot of shards but it can be done. i've done it.

[MondoGrunday]

Of course, if you went 6 Ranger 12 Barb and 2 rogue, you can also get that enhancement, plus sneak attack and evasion. The question is whether these add up to the benefit of Power Crit II.


you loose out one the crit rage II and that is more important i think

[Lithic]

why so much rerolling with a feat issue that can EASILY be swapped in and out. i chose 14/2 now because i dual wield and wanted the lvl 14 crit range so my rapiers hit at 13. with 2 levels of ranger i heal easier have bow str so my raged bonus goes to my bow. i have manyshot because being ranger gave me twf for free and freed up a feat for manyshot or its pre reqs. use the character builder 1st and it saves you the rerolls. if you have to reroll due to a change in the game , well that happens for every class.

many shot + rage + wop longbow = ownage

i will just finish out to 20 taking ranger levels to 6.
really not a difficult build to make.

Builds that go 14/2 barb/ranger now will be 1 feat short at lvl 20 compared to 10barb/6 rangers. Why? Because of the prereqs for greater two weapon fighting.

Lets start with the lvl 10 barb/6 ranger build. At lvl 16 they already have 2weapon fighting, and improved 2 weapon fighting from their ranger levels. They also likely took greater 2 weapon fighting at lvl 12 or 15. When they get 4 more levels of barbarian, their lvl 18 feat can be anything they wish, and the 14/6 build is complete with 2wf/I2wf (free from ranger) plus g2wf, plus 6 other feats (7 others if human).

Now your 14/2 barb build. You have 2wf for free from your 2 levels of ranger. You took I2wf and G2wf I assume. When you get 4 more ranger levels to get to 14 barb/6 ranger, you will need to swap out I2wf and g2wf for other placeholder feats until you get the free I2wf. If you don't do this, you will be 1 feat short compared to the first build. Now picture this, you trade I2wf and G2wf for say skill focus haggle and listen. You then get to lvl 17. Then you hit lvl 18. At this point, you take your last feat slot and choose...umm... mental toughness for some reason. At this point you are 14barb/4 ranger, so still no free I2wf. You hit lvl 19... then 20. Finally at lvl 20 you hit 14 barb/6 ranger, and get a free I2wf. Now you go see fred and try to switch in greater 2 weapon fighting for your mental toughness (which is your lvl 18 feat). The game does a check, says "hey at lvl 18, he was 14barb/4 ranger, and didnt have I2WF, Im not letting G2WF go into the lvl 18 feat slot". You then realize that to get greater 2 weapon fighting you will need to change it for one of your lvl 1/3/6/9/12/15 feats, so you can take G2WF at lvl 18. You will end up with 2wf (free from ranger), I2wf, G2WF, and only 5 other feats (6 if human). Thats one less than the current 10barb/6rangers. Sure many people wont bother rerolling, but for a large chunk of people that extra feat is huge. Hence the predictions of a reroll-a-thon :D

Of course there is the possibility that the game doesnt realize your free I2wf feat only applies at lvl 20 since it is a class given feat. In which case you will be fine.

[MondoGrunday]

i see what you're saying but why can't i just swap them out one by one until i get to the free one like i already did with twf. If you swap back out to the free feat you get that feat regardless and then get your other feats as per usual. i do not believe you will have a feat short if you swap out correctly. I have done this with my 14/2 barb already because i took twf right away as a barb and took my ranger level way later. I had to swap out itwf and gtwf to get down to the free twf feat and pulled it when i took my ranger level. i then (after several days and shards :/) added my new feats after each wait period, plus the freebee from the harbour.
I'm not any feats short then i should be and will continue to take my feats untill i hit level 20, which will be no more or less than any other 14/6 barb/ranger at lvl 20. when i get my gtwf feat for free i'll just repeat what i did previously. I don't see how i would lose a feat still. ??

[Cold_Stele]

Good guess.

Currently the plan for Fighters is (Dwarven) Defender, Kensai, and Purple Dragon Knight.

Yes, originally I had PDK listed as a Paladin one, but they went Defender of Siberys (Sealtiel), Knight of the Chalice, Hunter of the Dead. Purple Dragon Knight fit the fighters better as we started working on it.

Tempest Barb could already in trouble as the best DPS build of the future.

Mod 8's going to see some Ftr Wpn Specialization enhancements applying to *one* type of weapon (so Heavy Pick instead of Piercing).

Mod 9 will see Kensai. Although the Lawful prereq appears to have been dropped there's no comment about CE yet. Again they'll have bonuses based around one particular type of weapon.

What will 6 levels of Ftr get you? Will it be a better option? Who knows?

We'll all be glued to the WDA I guess... oh wait :(