Reset feats, reset AP, Reset Skills?

[Denssor]

Hello everyone,

We all know that you can exchange feats and reset AP's, but shouldn't we be able to respec are skills? We would be given the same number of skill points that we had already used (incase of INT tomes used, ect.) just be allowed to place them in new spots. I can't think of any reason why this couldn't happen.

[Borror0]

Agreed. It's a frequent request and there are many reasons for it to happen.

Judging by your Join Date, you seem pretty new. Basicly, Turbine has said that creating a skill respec system isn't as easy as it sounds and it would be very complicated for the to make. So, it seems the best thing to do is being vocal about it, say why we want it and hopefuly they'll figure out that it's a feature desired by many with many benefit on their side (ability to add new skills, create enhancements with skill rank prereq without any worry, ability to modify skill with lesser negative impact on the playerside and ability to deal with other problems that may be limited by skills).

So, let's just keep making noise about it. ;)

[Denssor]

I'm old to the game, new to the forums. But it is good to hear that the thought has reached turbine. Now I guess it's only a matter of time before they actually do something about it.

[Borror0]

But it is good to hear that the thought has reached turbine. Now I guess it's only a matter of time before they actually do something about it.

The thought 'reaching Turbine' is relative.

They have, so far, considerated the idea but seem to have concluded that the efforts were not worth the ressources. (Of course, I wouldn't really object to Eladrin proving me wrong.) That's what I meant by 'making some noise', we'll probably need to convince Turbine about this feature. It's clear they see some benefit in it, sadly... probably not enough to implement it yet...

[Denssor]

Well it kind of has to be done, if you were respecing your character you can change your feats and AP to better fit your build, but your skills which also play a role in your build can't be fixed. So going from a DPS-Secondary healer Paladin to an AC Itimitank Paladin can't be done, which could be a waste of time, working hard on creating a character, then find out isn't what you wanted and have to reroll a level 16 just to redo the skills.

[Riminy]

I agree that a "fred" should be put in to reset skills. The changes in the game such as:
Balance - they fixed this and made it a balance save to get up off ground rather then another str/dex save.
Intimidate/Diplomacy - Skills that have become more desired over time and become more efficient with the lower cooldown
Perform - Facinate has a save now, maybe bards neglected it, i know a few.

Thats all i can think of as of now, however.. UMD has become more and more useful, im sure theres some old characters after umd.

[Ikuryo]

This has been requested alot but their response is simple. They dont keep track of when you eat Tomes so a skill respec after you have used a Int tome that puts you at an even number would end up granting you 16 or more skill points to spend then you would have currently. They simply don't want to hand out that many skill points until they can figure out a way around it.

[Gennerik]

This has been requested alot but their response is simple. They dont keep track of when you eat Tomes so a skill respec after you have used a Int tome that puts you at an even number would end up granting you 16 or more skill points to spend then you would have currently. They simply don't want to hand out that many skill points until they can figure out a way around it.

That's why it was requested that they just allow you to spend the exact number of skill points that you already have. I think the real problem is multiclassing where skills become class skills when you raise those levels and are cross-class otherwise, but they do keep track of when you took a level in a particular class, so they can limit the points you put into a skill based on your level. I think they'd just have to default any skill you can get as a class skill (based on your classes) and once people exceed the skill limit for their classes then the skill becomes a cross-class skill.

Example: 7 Fighter/7 Paladin/2 Rogue
Intelligence of 14, 88 Skill Points total, 1st level rogue
(F - Fighter Class Skill, P - Paladin Class Skill, R - Rogue Class Skill)

Balance (R) - 5 Max Class Skill (1st level Rogue = 4, 1 level Rogue = 1)
Bluff (R) - 5 Max Class Skill (1st level Rogue = 4, 1 level Rogue = 1)
Concentrate (P) - 7 Max Class Skill (7 levels Paladin = 7)
Diplomacy (P/R) - 12 Max Class Skill (1st level Rogue = 4, 1 level Rogue = 1, 7 levels Paladin = 7)
Disable Device (R) - 5 Max Class Skill (1st level Rogue = 4, 1 level Rogue = 1)
Haggle (R) - 5 Max Class Skill (1st level Rogue = 4, 1 level Rogue = 1)
Heal (P) - 7 Max Class Skill (7 levels Paladin = 7)
Hide (R) - 5 Max Class Skill (1st level Rogue = 4, 1 level Rogue = 1)
Intimidate (F/R) - 12 Max Class Skill (1st level Rogue = 4, 1 level Rogue = 1, 7 levels Fighter = 7)
Jump (F/R) - 12 Max Class Skill (1st level Rogue = 4, 1 level Rogue = 1, 7 levels Fighter = 7)
Listen (R) - 5 Max Class Skill (1st level Rogue = 4, 1 level Rogue = 1)
Move Silently (R) - 5 Max Class Skill (1st level Rogue = 4, 1 level Rogue = 1)
Open Lock (R) - 5 Max Class Skill (1st level Rogue = 4, 1 level Rogue = 1)
Perform - Always a Cross-Class Skill
Repair (F/R) - 12 Max Class Skill (1st level Rogue = 4, 1 level Rogue = 1, 7 levels Fighter = 7)
Search (R) - 5 Max Class Skill (1st level Rogue = 4, 1 level Rogue = 1)
Spot (R) - 5 Max Class Skill (1st level Rogue = 4, 1 level Rogue = 1)
Swim (F/R) - 12 Max Class Skill (1st level Rogue = 4, 1 level Rogue = 1, 7 levels Fighter = 7)
Tumble (R) - 5 Max Class Skill (1st level Rogue = 4, 1 level Rogue = 1)
Use Magic Device (R) - 5 Max Class Skill (1st level Rogue = 4, 1 level Rogue = 1)

So, after you compute the total maximum values for the Class skills in each, then you distribute your skill points (in this case 88). Any additional points put into skills past the Maximum Class Skill value only gives 0.5 ranks, since you've exceeded the class skill limit and are now essentially leveling the skill during the time when you level up in a class that doesn't have that skill. The maximum for any skill is still Level +3, or half that for a Cross-Class skill. It shouldn't be too difficult to manage this way unless the skills aren't actually stored as a number total for the character data. Just my suggestion on a way it could be done with, hopefully, minimal effort on the developer.

[Justicesar]

Big deal...let Int increase to skill points be retro.... When my Con goes up from a +3 tome I get HP as if I had the higher stat from level 1 so stay consistent. Building toons is one of the shining features of DDO....don't waste time trying to figure out a work around so Bob the Butcher Fighter has 10 less skill points to spend when he pops that +3 Int tome....grr just do it man and lets move on.

[Impaqt]

That's why it was requested that they just allow you to spend the exact number of skill points that you already have. I think the real problem is multiclassing where skills become class skills when you raise those levels and are cross-class otherwise, but they do keep track of when you took a level in a particular class, so they can limit the points you put into a skill based on your level. I think they'd just have to default any skill you can get as a class skill (based on your classes) and once people exceed the skill limit for their classes then the skill becomes a cross-class skill.

Example: 7 Fighter/7 Paladin/2 Rogue
Intelligence of 14, 88 Skill Points total, 1st level rogue
(F - Fighter Class Skill, P - Paladin Class Skill, R - Rogue Class Skill)

Balance (R) - 5 Max Class Skill (1st level Rogue = 4, 1 level Rogue = 1)
Bluff (R) - 5 Max Class Skill (1st level Rogue = 4, 1 level Rogue = 1)
Concentrate (P) - 7 Max Class Skill (7 levels Paladin = 7)
Diplomacy (P/R) - 12 Max Class Skill (1st level Rogue = 4, 1 level Rogue = 1, 7 levels Paladin = 7)
Disable Device (R) - 5 Max Class Skill (1st level Rogue = 4, 1 level Rogue = 1)
Haggle (R) - 5 Max Class Skill (1st level Rogue = 4, 1 level Rogue = 1)
Heal (P) - 7 Max Class Skill (7 levels Paladin = 7)
Hide (R) - 5 Max Class Skill (1st level Rogue = 4, 1 level Rogue = 1)
Intimidate (F/R) - 12 Max Class Skill (1st level Rogue = 4, 1 level Rogue = 1, 7 levels Fighter = 7)
Jump (F/R) - 12 Max Class Skill (1st level Rogue = 4, 1 level Rogue = 1, 7 levels Fighter = 7)
Listen (R) - 5 Max Class Skill (1st level Rogue = 4, 1 level Rogue = 1)
Move Silently (R) - 5 Max Class Skill (1st level Rogue = 4, 1 level Rogue = 1)
Open Lock (R) - 5 Max Class Skill (1st level Rogue = 4, 1 level Rogue = 1)
Perform - Always a Cross-Class Skill
Repair (F/R) - 12 Max Class Skill (1st level Rogue = 4, 1 level Rogue = 1, 7 levels Fighter = 7)
Search (R) - 5 Max Class Skill (1st level Rogue = 4, 1 level Rogue = 1)
Spot (R) - 5 Max Class Skill (1st level Rogue = 4, 1 level Rogue = 1)
Swim (F/R) - 12 Max Class Skill (1st level Rogue = 4, 1 level Rogue = 1, 7 levels Fighter = 7)
Tumble (R) - 5 Max Class Skill (1st level Rogue = 4, 1 level Rogue = 1)
Use Magic Device (R) - 5 Max Class Skill (1st level Rogue = 4, 1 level Rogue = 1)

So, after you compute the total maximum values for the Class skills in each, then you distribute your skill points (in this case 88). Any additional points put into skills past the Maximum Class Skill value only gives 0.5 ranks, since you've exceeded the class skill limit and are now essentially leveling the skill during the time when you level up in a class that doesn't have that skill. The maximum for any skill is still Level +3, or half that for a Cross-Class skill. It shouldn't be too difficult to manage this way unless the skills aren't actually stored as a number total for the character data. Just my suggestion on a way it could be done with, hopefully, minimal effort on the developer.

ANd this is Why its so DIfficult... You are so far off inyour calculations its kinda Scarry......

First, a 2 Rogue/7Paly/7Fighter would of actually used 106 Skill points over thier Leveling Process. FIguring L1 Rogue and No Tomes were used.

Second. I'm not sure where your figuring all those "Max" Numbers from.... On that Build, you could Put MAX Ranks (19) Into Every skill except for Perform. BUT, you might of had to use as many as 38 Skill Points to get to 19 Ranks.

See where the Problem Stems from?

as L2, 3, 4 Paly for Example, You can keep your Disable Device Maxed, but it would of cost you 6 Skill points to do that... But ifyou didnt put ANY points into DD until you took yoru second ROgue level at L5 you could Max that Skill to 8 for just 4 Skill Points.

Not Following me? Exactly..............

[Riddikulus]

Big deal...let Int increase to skill points be retro.... When my Con goes up from a +3 tome I get HP as if I had the higher stat from level 1 so stay consistent. Building toons is one of the shining features of DDO....don't waste time trying to figure out a work around so Bob the Butcher Fighter has 10 less skill points to spend when he pops that +3 Int tome....grr just do it man and lets move on.
There will likely be +5 tomes in the not so distant future... so 20 levels x 2 or 3 (depending on if base INT is even or odd) could be upwards of 43 to 63 additional skill points.

They really should be tracking what tomes are used and when. They also really should have ML on tomes so that even if you had used a +5 tome it wouldn't apply until an appropriate level anyway. A level 1 built with 32 points and six +5 tomes would be Riddikulusly overpowered.

[Impaqt]

A level 1 built with 32 points and six +5 tomes would be Riddikulusly overpowered.

Yeah, he might breeze through all the Harbor and Marketplace Quests in just a few hours of play......:rolleyes:

[Borror0]

They really should be tracking what tomes are used and when.
Actually, skill respec that assumes you ate the tome at level 1 would be easier to code and solves more issues than it may create (if any is created).

They also really should have ML on tomes so that even if you had used a +5 tome it wouldn't apply until an appropriate level anyway.
This can't be done without a skill respec.

[Alavatar]

ANd this is Why its so DIfficult... You are so far off inyour calculations its kinda Scarry......

First, a 2 Rogue/7Paly/7Fighter would of actually used 106 Skill points over thier Leveling Process. FIguring L1 Rogue and No Tomes were used.

Second. I'm not sure where your figuring all those "Max" Numbers from.... On that Build, you could Put MAX Ranks (19) Into Every skill except for Perform. BUT, you might of had to use as many as 38 Skill Points to get to 19 Ranks.

See where the Problem Stems from?

as L2, 3, 4 Paly for Example, You can keep your Disable Device Maxed, but it would of cost you 6 Skill points to do that... But ifyou didnt put ANY points into DD until you took yoru second ROgue level at L5 you could Max that Skill to 8 for just 4 Skill Points.

Not Following me? Exactly..............

I think what he was saying was that you can spend Skill Points on a 1:1 ratio up to the max he had listed, then you had to pay CC cost to increase it to the max.

And he was computing the "Max Class Rank" by taking the appropriate classes that got those skills as class skills and tallying them. (i.e. Diplomacy is a class skill for both Rogues and Paladins. that gives you 2 "Class Ranks" for your 2 levels of Rogue and 7 "Class Ranks" for your 7 levels of Paladin and 3 "Class Ranks" as a base for having a skill as a class skill, totaling to 12 "Class Ranks". He did have an error, though, in that Concentrate and Heal should have a Max Class Rank of 10 instead of 7.)

Personally, I think they should reset you back to L1 and you purchase skills as if you are leveling up since they do track when you take a level.

[Impaqt]

I think what he was saying was that you can spend Skill Points on a 1:1 ratio up to the max he had listed, then you had to pay CC cost to increase it to the max.

And he was computing the "Max Class Rank" by taking the appropriate classes that got those skills as class skills and tallying them. (i.e. Diplomacy is a class skill for both Rogues and Paladins. that gives you 2 "Class Ranks" for your 2 levels of Rogue and 7 "Class Ranks" for your 7 levels of Paladin and 3 "Class Ranks" as a base for having a skill as a class skill, totaling to 12 "Class Ranks". He did have an error, though, in that Concentrate and Heal should have a Max Class Rank of 10 instead of 7.)

Personally, I think they should reset you back to L1 and you purchase skills as if you are leveling up since they do track when you take a level.

Thats still not accurate though...

Theres nothing that would of stopped him from puttign 4 ranks into DD at level 1, then putting 10 Ranks into DD when he took hius second level of rogue... as long as that second level was at least level 11... We dont have info on where that second level was though unfortuantly.. that would put him up to 14 Ranks in DD with just 14 points spent.... Shattering the "5 max class skill"

[Justicesar]

A level 1 built with 32 points and six +5 tomes would be Riddikulusly overpowered.

....and as sure as I can spit it will be done....lol.

[GlassCannon]

Yeah, he might breeze through all the Harbor and Marketplace Quests in just a few hours of play......:rolleyes:

He'd still have a bit of trouble keeping up with the End Game Capped folk though.

It's only a temporary boost on the Power Curve, not a realignment of said curve.

[Anastasios]

It's a shotty thing not to do, allow the respec of skill points...it's definitely not game breaking to any degree, and it wouldn't matter too much gaining those extra skill points if tomes were involved.

I'm all for it, hopefully the dev's see the player side of it soon enough.

[Gennerik]

ANd this is Why its so DIfficult... You are so far off inyour calculations its kinda Scarry......

First, a 2 Rogue/7Paly/7Fighter would of actually used 106 Skill points over thier Leveling Process. FIguring L1 Rogue and No Tomes were used.

Second. I'm not sure where your figuring all those "Max" Numbers from.... On that Build, you could Put MAX Ranks (19) Into Every skill except for Perform. BUT, you might of had to use as many as 38 Skill Points to get to 19 Ranks.

See where the Problem Stems from?

as L2, 3, 4 Paly for Example, You can keep your Disable Device Maxed, but it would of cost you 6 Skill points to do that... But ifyou didnt put ANY points into DD until you took yoru second ROgue level at L5 you could Max that Skill to 8 for just 4 Skill Points.

Not Following me? Exactly..............

First off, that's my actual character build, and I have 88 Skill points (I used my cake for +1 Int at some point), so I didn't start off with a 14 Intelligence. That's at least illustrating the fact that it doesn't matter when you used a tome or increased skill points, because as long as it equals the skill point total that you started off with, then you won't get any fewer or more skill points.


Thats still not accurate though...

Theres nothing that would of stopped him from puttign 4 ranks into DD at level 1, then putting 10 Ranks into DD when he took hius second level of rogue... as long as that second level was at least level 11... We dont have info on where that second level was though unfortuantly.. that would put him up to 14 Ranks in DD with just 14 points spent.... Shattering the "5 max class skill"

And yes, I overlooked that aspect when I created that breakdown (kind of stupid on my part, given that that is exactly how I planned my Rogue levels in order to maximize my skills). However, you don't have to be such a condescending jerk about it and act like I'm a moron and that you cleverly saw the plan of the universe because you caught something that I knew about but didn't consider in my example.

That does indeed throw a big problem into things. It might require different breakdown, perhaps in a way of calculating the number of skill points garnered by each class then allowing those to be distributed to the skills, where you essentially spend the skill points for a class based on calss skills first then cross-class skills. There'd have to be a way to select which class you're spending points for in the case of skills with multiple classes, or perhaps you just go in order and should spend your skill points wisely (the second option would probably be easier to code). For levels, you'd have to keep track of when an ability was increased (hopefully already done) to adjust the class skill points accordingly. I'm guessing with tomes, you'd compare the total points after setting each class skill point total with the base ability score (including tomes) then subtract a level bonus until you end up with the correct number in order to approximate (or exactly, not sure since I haven't completely worked out the math yet) the time when you used the tome. It would still be hairy when using multiple tomes (a +1 at level 1 and then a +3 at level 14 would make it difficult), but short of being shorted by a skill point or two to a given class, it should still allow a respec of your skills, which I think people would be happier with than just being stuck with the skills they started with.

[Impaqt]

First off, that's my actual character build, and I have 88 Skill points (I used my cake for +1 Int at some point), so I didn't start off with a 14 Intelligence. That's at least illustrating the fact that it doesn't matter when you used a tome or increased skill points, because as long as it equals the skill point total that you started off with, then you won't get any fewer or more skill points.



And yes, I overlooked that aspect when I created that breakdown (kind of stupid on my part, given that that is exactly how I planned my Rogue levels in order to maximize my skills). However, you don't have to be such a condescending jerk about it and act like I'm a moron and that you cleverly saw the plan of the universe because you caught something that I knew about but didn't consider in my example.

That does indeed throw a big problem into things. It might require different breakdown, perhaps in a way of calculating the number of skill points garnered by each class then allowing those to be distributed to the skills, where you essentially spend the skill points for a class based on calss skills first then cross-class skills. There'd have to be a way to select which class you're spending points for in the case of skills with multiple classes, or perhaps you just go in order and should spend your skill points wisely (the second option would probably be easier to code). For levels, you'd have to keep track of when an ability was increased (hopefully already done) to adjust the class skill points accordingly. I'm guessing with tomes, you'd compare the total points after setting each class skill point total with the base ability score (including tomes) then subtract a level bonus until you end up with the correct number in order to approximate (or exactly, not sure since I haven't completely worked out the math yet) the time when you used the tome. It would still be hairy when using multiple tomes (a +1 at level 1 and then a +3 at level 14 would make it difficult), but short of being shorted by a skill point or two to a given class, it should still allow a respec of your skills, which I think people would be happier with than just being stuck with the skills they started with.

Sorry if I sound like a "condescending jerk" but this is not the first time people have asked for a SKill respec.... I get Tired of people saying "Look, Its EASY!" when in fact is is incredibly difficult to do this. Borderline Immpossible depending on what actual information the devs have behind the scenes on our characters.

You get upset with me for acting like this, but what did you just do to the Devs? You basicaly called them morons because they didnt think of your solution.... Its the same thing.....

There is only one way to easily alow a Skill respec.....

and thats to offer a Total character respec. FOr a Fee, the devs reset your character to Level 0, but you mantain all your XP and Stuff. You then Relevel the character the way you want, reallocating skill points, and Level up Points.....

THis still causes problems because theres no way to accurratly apply any Intelligence tome you may have eaten. but it solves the problem of how many points can go where at what level.

[Beherit_Baphomar]

Simple solution to this whole affair.

Multiclass characters who want a skill respec only get the skill points their original (level1) class gets. Using
the INT that you started with.

Pure characters get the skill points they would normally get, using the INT that they started with.

If a skill respec is that important to you then you'll take the hit on the numbers...

[kingfisher]

I agree that a "fred" should be put in to reset skills. The changes in the game such as:
Balance - they fixed this and made it a balance save to get up off ground rather then another str/dex save.
Intimidate/Diplomacy - Skills that have become more desired over time and become more efficient with the lower cooldown
Perform - Facinate has a save now, maybe bards neglected it, i know a few.

Thats all i can think of as of now, however.. UMD has become more and more useful, im sure theres some old characters after umd.

agree. giving us a way to retrofit umd and balance would make those dusty old toons much more playable. also would help to be able to tweak rogue skills for those of us who rolled rogues before we knew what we were doing. the idea of having to reroll (for the casual player) just to fix your broken skill set is pretty frustrating.

[Gennerik]

Sorry if I sound like a "condescending jerk" but this is not the first time people have asked for a SKill respec.... I get Tired of people saying "Look, Its EASY!" when in fact is is incredibly difficult to do this. Borderline Immpossible depending on what actual information the devs have behind the scenes on our characters.

You get upset with me for acting like this, but what did you just do to the Devs? You basicaly called them morons because they didnt think of your solution.... Its the same thing.....

There is only one way to easily alow a Skill respec.....

and thats to offer a Total character respec. FOr a Fee, the devs reset your character to Level 0, but you mantain all your XP and Stuff. You then Relevel the character the way you want, reallocating skill points, and Level up Points.....

THis still causes problems because theres no way to accurratly apply any Intelligence tome you may have eaten. but it solves the problem of how many points can go where at what level.

I can understand getting fed up with constantly hearing about it, but I'm in no way saying that it's easy. I'm trying to throw ideas out there that maybe haven't been brought up before. I'm also not calling the Developers morons in any way, shape, or form. I am simply throwing out an idea, to which you brought up a very major flaw, so it's back to the drawing board. But maybe an idea that's thrown out here will give one of the developers an idea of "This idea won't work as-is, however maybe if I change this around I can get it to work." I'm in no way an 15+ year veteran game programmer as so many people seem to be on these board, but I do have a good deal of programming knowledge. I can't count the number of times that I've been working on a piece of code for hours, trying to think of a way to do something more efficiently when someone else comes in and looks at it for 30 seconds and says "Hey, have you thought about this...?" and viola, an answer appears.

And technically, your way isn't the only way to easily address a skill respec, because it still has a fundamental flaw in it by not addressing the tome issue (which could hypothetically be up to 60 skill points difference in the future of the game, but could still be a difference of up to 32 skill points currently). It is, however, much easier to imagine at how to do it (though it could still be as complicated or more so to program).


Simple solution to this whole affair.

Multiclass characters who want a skill respec only get the skill points their original (level1) class gets. Using
the INT that you started with.

Pure characters get the skill points they would normally get, using the INT that they started with.

If a skill respec is that important to you then you'll take the hit on the numbers...

And Beherit_Baphomar, that still has a big problem in the fact that most multiclass characters take Rogue as their first level if they're planning on multiclassing into it at some point and would actually get many more skill points than they should (but my Paladin/Fighter/Rogue would be behind it 100%). :D

[Beherit_Baphomar]

And Beherit_Baphomar, that still has a big problem in the fact that most multiclass characters take Rogue as their first level if they're planning on multiclassing into it at some point and would actually get many more skill points than they should (but my Paladin/Fighter/Rogue would be behind it 100%). :D

Yeah, realised that after I typed it, was waiting on someone to notice it.

So instead of that then just give the SP's that the multiclasser would have.

So (very simply put here) for a character with a 13 INT. give 10 pts for each rogue level, 5 pts for each fighter level and 4 for each barbarian level.

[Onubis]

Ok maybe this has been said before and i dont mean to be mean to the devs... but since this has become an issue, did no one think of starting to record when a character ate a tome?? I understand this was probably never thought of being needed before, but prehaps since we added all these respec abilities, a full character history should be recorded as a character lvls up. Every time a character lvls record his stats, skills etc, (because i could have increased int stat at a lvl too).

While this doesnt help many current characters, this would improve gaming from here on out. Although next thing i bet we hear people begging for respec on is their stats themselves...

[NiasTrams]

I think it would be awesome if skill points increased as if from level 1 with any reason a permanent increase in INT happened except for increases by action points. Whether the increase in INT is from eating a Tome or from leveling up, the number of skill points you gain should be as if you had that INT since level 1; this way it is a boon for all classes to seek higher INT while making respecting skills easier for Turbine to calculate. Fred already keeps track of which class I took at which level. Keep it simple and enjoyable; i.e. "my 16 rogue/wizard just ate a +3 INT tome and got 18 more skill points, hot ****!!!!"