Ki accrument?

[hu-flung-pu]

At what level do you start pulling off finishing moves on a consistant basis? AKA At will?

Ive got 10 concentration at third level, but it seems like that unless I'm in fire stance, I don't get my ki up enough to pull off a finisher and when I do activate my finisher, I've spent most of my ki trying to power it up. We won't even go in to stunning fist and how depleted that makes me.

It's driving me nuts.

Edit: Also, when is a good time to pull out meditation for the big boost to Ki?

[Angelus_dead]

At what level do you start pulling off finishing moves on a consistant basis? AKA At will?

Ive got 10 concentration at third level
Well, you're 3rd level, there ya go. That's the level when you get Fists of Light/Darkness, meaning you can have access to all the finisher moves you'll ever get. There are 14 total, and you've got 9 of them, and the other 5 are excluded from you. So it's natural that although you can theoretically use them all, they won't be cheaply accessible for a long time. (You can predict that by level 16 you'll have at least +13 more concentration, plus more from constitution, items, enhancements, and buffs. That'll pay for finishers)

However, if you were asking a slightly different question like: "When will I get to the point where I can use finisher attacks as a natural part of generic combat?" then the answer is never. That's probably how the designers hoped they'd work, but it didn't pan out.


Edit: Also, when is a good time to pull out meditation for the big boost to Ki?
The standard use of meditation is right before a boss fight, or some other time when you want to either have a lot of special attacks early, or cast some buffs. Other times include if you need to jump around a puzzle, or heal yourself with some FOL repetitions. Meditation is more used when solo or in small groups- typically in a party, the benefit you get from the Ki isn't worth the time you'd make everyone else wait.

If you have Rise of the Phoenix, you'll probably need to meditate before you can cast it, too.

[hu-flung-pu]

That's kind of disheartening to hear.

A monks finishers are part of what makes a monk a monk.

I'm familiar with how they work now, I just can't ever store enough ki to get off three ki strikes (15 ki), and then the finisher. (I get close, but the increased penalty where it goes from -1 to -2 to ki when you reach a certain point kills me on the finisher.

So basically what you've said is that the onlyway to keep Ki on hand is to max out your concentration score and keep that battery charged during combat?

[feynman]

That's kind of disheartening to hear.

A monks finishers are part of what makes a monk a monk.

I'm familiar with how they work now, I just can't ever store enough ki to get off three ki strikes (15 ki), and then the finisher. (I get close, but the increased penalty where it goes from -1 to -2 to ki when you reach a certain point kills me on the finisher.

So basically what you've said is that the onlyway to keep Ki on hand is to max out your concentration score and keep that battery charged during combat?

No, conc is important, but not overly so. Fire stance and cleave is my choice for ki generation (2 ki from every hit in the swing), and at high level, you will have more ki than you know what to do with after your first fight.

That being said, the finishers are anticlimactic; +2 to-hit and skills for 1 minute (probably the best), or 10% spell cost reduction for 1 minute (if you can get the casters to sit still while you throw it), or blur for 1 minute (but it doesn't stack), or immunity to stun for 30 seconds. The others are either broken (karmic strike), buggy (my experience with the dark side), or ineffectual (any of the straight elemental finishers*).

*I will make one exception: the burning hands effect is nice for burning hordes of spiders, but the only quest I can think of where it's that great is the one in the harbor.

[MageLL]

I don't agree.

My monk's concentration is 35 (lvl 16) that is enough to enter a dungeon and shoot off any round of moves including the finisher I want.

There are ways to soak up Ki, an example would be to use a paralyzing weapon to keep a monster held while you build ki. Opposed to using a vorpal or banishing weapon which will cut you short.

Dual wielding kamas also generates ki faster then any double handed weapon.

Fire Stance generates double ki per hit, and earth stance generates ki when you're attacked melee.

I have no problem on my monk soloing the vale without using any heal pots. Most melee classes can't say that, and even my rangers end up using a wand from time to time.

[hu-flung-pu]

Would you consider precision a viable way of building up ki turning that on til you've got your desired amount of ki, then turning it off and just blasting away with bonus damage on ki strikes and finishers in between normal unarmed damage?

Trading half your damage for +5 to hit with precision turned on. The draw back is obviously the half damage but at end game, you're doing 2d8 empty handed plus what ever enhancement bonus on hand wraps I'd imagine dual wielding kamas would turn you in to a ki manufacturing machine with fire stance on and precision. But could the finisher cancel the damage bonus out if you were able to dish it out enough times?

Also, since your concentration is so high, are you able to have your ki reduce at a slower rate? Where you have more ki before it goes down by -7, then -6, -5, and so on?

[MageLL]

Higher con, does decrease the rate in which you lose it.

As for precession.. I never used it, but I don't have any issues hitting things. Dual kamas you take the weapon finesse feat and the dex bonus is used to calculate your to hit. I do use Power attack alot since the damage from kamas is so low.

[Ikuryo]

At low level your concentration is low so you cant really store all that much Ki. As you gain in levels and get your concentration up you can have a larger and larger amount of Ki stored before it starts to drop, it also gets easier to hit things so your Ki builds faster from that as well. It also looks like you don't realize that you can build up finishers over the course of a couple of fights. You just have to be careful to avoid the actions that break the combo, picking up a collectible, looting a chest, switching armor or weapons, opening a door, or just about anything else that is not related to swinging at something. If you avoid doing those actions its possible to throw finishers even with a small Ki pool.

Its mostly just a matter of being patient until the higher levels though. The Ki cost of the various moves and finishers is balanced for a high level monk. As a result it becomes really difficult to throw finishers while at the lower lvls but is fairly easy at the higher levels. With a +5 con item and +5 concentration item I have 31 Ki when I enter dungeons which will allow me to throw one finisher before even fighting anything. With a better con or concentration item I could have a much higher starting Ki, I also have few problems with it degrading. I can have a half bar for a couple of minutes before it fades down to base if I am not fighting anything.

[Kaboth]

I beleive someone said that the higher the concentration the slower your Ki degrades in time.

[Angelus_dead]

Would you consider precision a viable way of building up ki turning that on til you've got your desired amount of ki, then turning it off and just blasting away with bonus damage on ki strikes and finishers in between normal unarmed damage?
That would work, but it would be a waste, because the value of the Ki gained isn't worth the fact that you let the monster live longer. Plus, that'll only really work if you can get the rest of the party to agree to not kill it.


But could the finisher cancel the damage bonus out if you were able to dish it out enough times?
Finishers don't really do damage. There is the Dragon Breath which has some damage, but even if it had a saving throw better than DC 11 it would still not be worth it on its own.

[feynman]

1. Precision: waste of a feat. You don't need the +5 to-hit, but your damage is already so low that losing half of it would be disastrous.

2. Weapon Finesse: great for rogues, rangers, and dex-build tanks; not so hot for monks. All other classes can enhance their damage through high-crit rang/multiplier weapons, sneak attacks, etc, but pure monks do not have these options. You need the strength for damage, anyway, so why not save the feat?

3. Power attack: IMHO, this is mandatory at high level, and useful even at low levels. Not only does it add 5 to each hit (10 for staves), but it opens up the cleave feats (you want to see Ki generation?!), for a to-hit penalty that you will rarely notice. I have played with monks that did not have PA, and it was painful to watch.

4. Concentration: Determines how much "standing" ki you can have, i.e. how much before it starts dropping. I would imagine that it also effects the break points for determining the rate of ki loss.

[negative]

4. Concentration: Determines how much "standing" ki you can have, i.e. how much before it starts dropping. I would imagine that it also effects the break points for determining the rate of ki loss.

That has been my experiance. And that's the significant benifit of a higher concentration. More significant than simply raising your standing Ki atleast (though it's really nice to pull off an Aligning the Heavens when you are buffing at the quest start). When you have a 120 Ki and only a -3 degradation (40 concentration), you don't have to go out of your way to get good use out of it.

I'll also add, because based on the OP's comments he may not know this, you don't have to do all three moves of a finisher in a row. You can do one move, continue to attack and regain the ki needed to throw a second, etc. and then throw the finisher. You don't have to wait until you have over 30-40 ki before you even attempt to start the combo. The helps alot at lower levels. Just make sure you don't pick up a collectable, change weapons, climb a ladder, etc.

I'll also add that if you land a stunning fist, it ussually provides a payout in Ki over the 15 ki cost. Atleast if you are using Fire stance OR water/crane.