"Blown Up Sir!"

[Wrigley]

Last few weeks pugging out a few spots in Shroud, Hound, and Vision raids I keep hearing the same thing over and over from the sorcs as we prepare to assign roles, etc.............

"I Blow things up!"

This is in response to multiple questions:

*What CC spells do you have?
*Do you have extend?
*Do you have GH?
*Do you have ANY buffs?

While I play the game with a fairly serious raid guild who at times tend to get a bit to serious about the game we are here to have fun, and don't ever want to tell someone how to play their character. What it comes down to though is if your running with friends, your own guild, or solo choose whatever spell selection makes you happy. However, one of the things that makes this game unique is that it is very much a cooperative game. Kind of "it takes a village" to succesfully run a smooth raid. If your going to join PuG raids a certain level of team play is not to much to expect. Blow up all you want on your own, but an end-game raid means working together. That means buffing, extended haste, and crowd control. My sorc is a bit strange as he only runs a few raids at this point. So he carries knock (Shroud), Blur, GH, Displacement, web , symbol of stunning, acid fog, dimension door, etc. He "blows up stuff real good" with his direct damage spells, and has plenty. I don't find a need for everyone of them. I do find a need to help the party achieve it's goal in an efficient manner. I don't think all of that is necessary, but if you join a raid at least be more than a "solo" caster.

Just my thought after a few frustrating runs where we have effectively been 9-10 manning end raids

[GlassCannon]

WoW players use a certain string of things over and over and over.... and over and over....

even if there is no need to use said string of attacks/effects.



They are plaguing DDO with their inflexible "if it can die, use Fire Wall" tactics.

[Venar]

Ah yes, the full-nuker sorc, or, as i call them, the gimps.
What they fail to realise is that, well, every sorc can blow things up. It's not like you need a specific dedication for it. Every sorc do have Maximize, firewall, Polar Ray and MM. And a lot of SPs. and the fire enhancements.
So, you have those who do only that, and those who do that AND have buffs, debuffs, control, etc...

Really, the blowing-things-up sorcs are lazy one-trick poneys who just don't bother.

[geoffhanna]

Too funny. Seriously. LOL.

I will say one thing for this whole argument... it is so obviously and hopelessly flawed that I am having difficulty figuring out where to start a rebuttal.

It's like arguing in favor of a blue sky or debating the usefulness of breathing. Where do you begin?

[Venar]

Where do you begin?


You can start by making sense.

[Kreaper]

Too funny. Seriously. LOL.

I will say one thing for this whole argument... it is so obviously and hopelessly flawed that I am having difficulty figuring out where to start a rebuttal.

It's like arguing in favor of a blue sky or debating the usefulness of breathing. Where do you begin?


Start with something like, "So you want us to play our sorc the way we want as long as it is the way you want. Gotcha!"

[Elsiah]

As far as the argument goes, i'm not one way or the other. I will say that my guild leader has two sorcs capped out, and he is one of the better casters i have seen. both have CC spells and DD if i remember correctly. I can tell you for certain that both have extend, and we're never hurting for buffs.

Lately, i've had a lot of those moments in shroud and VOD runs where the group leader will ask the sorc to put down some crowd control, and we are all told that the only CC they need is firewall...

well, you get the idea. i'm all for a balanced character, and i see no harm in having some beneficial spells for a group set aside in your spell slots. yeah, i know sorcs get fewer, but the fewer players who try, the more people will see the pure nuke as a benefit, which it is not most of the time.

[BurningDownTheHouse]

I don't know about the rest but i like to feel usfull in a group.
Blowing up half your mana to kill a mob doesn't feel usful....

[aumerle]

Too funny. Perhaps this is a result of all of the "must be experienced" LFMs I see for those raids which probably pull in lots of the players that *think* "I'm uberer than God" and yet can't play their way out of a paper bag and unfortunately turn off people like me, that have never done Shroud/Hound/Vision but wouldn't mind learning, don't want to have to join some random guild to do so, so end up just running around the orchard/vale killing random stuff after I hit 16 on my sorc (and btw know how to do more than "blow stuff up") and spend the rest of my time starting up new toons instead of raiding.

[Venar]

So you want us to play our sorc the way we want as long as it is the way you want. Gotcha

What would you say to a cleric who only heals? (no buffs, no BB)
What would you say to a rogue that just do traps (no combat abilities)?

The job of caster is one of multiple tasks and facettes. Limiting yourself to one does not make you better.

[Kaldaka]

Too funny. Seriously. LOL.

I will say one thing for this whole argument... it is so obviously and hopelessly flawed that I am having difficulty figuring out where to start a rebuttal.

It's like arguing in favor of a blue sky or debating the usefulness of breathing. Where do you begin?


Start with something like, "So you want us to play our sorc the way we want as long as it is the way you want. Gotcha!"

Hmm .. I'm of the opinion of the OP where it was HIS raid and he expects the sorcs to have certain spells/feats/etc.

However, he should state this from the get-go before they even start running into the Subterrain and then ask the player to leave or boot him if he doesn't like the answers. Remember it is HIS raid and he can pretty much build the group as he pleases.

So IMO OP, you really only can blame yourself for dragging the deadweight with you ... you shoulda booted them while you were still in the marketplace ...

[Aranticus]

Hmm .. I'm of the opinion of the OP where it was HIS raid and he expects the sorcs to have certain spells/feats/etc.

However, he should state this from the get-go before they even start running into the Subterrain and then ask the player to leave or boot him if he doesn't like the answers. Remember it is HIS raid and he can pretty much build the group as he pleases.

i think u got the wrong guy. its actually geoffhanna whom you want to refer your post to. Kreaper was merely trying to make sense of the post geoffhanna made

back to topic, i kinda agree with OP. it is important for all classes to be able to work with the whole party. synergise and the effort made by each player is multiplied. however, it is also important not to build a party around a single player. instead of just blaming the sorc for not having those spells, it can be easy to look for a wiz to complement the sorc. i do not have a problem with people playing their toons their own way. i have a problem with people who do not maximise what they can do

several examples (all pertaining to shroud)
L14+ pallys not using holy sword instead fooling around with a +1 transmuting of maiming
casters not going on portal/keeper clearing duty instead takes out the dreamsplitter and hitting the portal
bards not maximising the damage song instead puts points into other non critical stuff
etc

yes, they may have fun playing their toons their way but as long as they do not contribute to the max, they can sit out of my raids

[Aspenor]

Take it from me....

If you don't at least have web, 1 fog spell, heighten, and aren't willing to buff, your sorc is a waste of space.

[Zandaya]

Take it from me....

If you don't at least have web, 1 fog spell, heighten, and aren't willing to buff, your sorc is a waste of space.


Agreed

[Lorien_the_First_One]

What would you say to a cleric who only heals? (no buffs, no BB)
What would you say to a rogue that just do traps (no combat abilities)?

The job of caster is one of multiple tasks and facettes. Limiting yourself to one does not make you better.

Actually there is a good argument in favor of the buff bot. It's not my style of play, but it can be useful and some spec'd for healing/dv only are seriously walking shrines.

[Aspenor]

Take it from me....

If you don't at least have web, 1 fog spell, heighten, and aren't willing to buff, your sorc is a waste of space.


Agreed

Let me rephrase that, I had some improper English there.

If you don't at least have web, 1 fog spell, AND heighten, and you aren't willing to buff, your sorc is a waste of space.

[debo]

Let me rephrase that, I had some improper English there.

If you don't at least have web, 1 fog spell, AND heighten, and you aren't willing to buff, your sorc is a waste of space.

true dat

[Dexxaan]

Take it from me....

If you don't at least have web, 1 fog spell, heighten, and aren't willing to buff, your sorc is a waste of space.

Best post so far.

[scampb]

Take it from me....

If you don't at least have web, 1 fog spell, heighten, and aren't willing to buff, your sorc is a waste of space.

I will remember that as I level up my Sorc, currently level 10. Cuz I wanna raid with y'all! :)

[Missing_Minds]

If you don't at least have web, 1 fog spell, AND heighten, and you aren't willing to buff, your sorc is a waste of space.


If they change how teleporting works for the devils, (aka web doesn't stop mental activities at all), won't that requirement become useless? Isn't that the only reason you are requiring that one right now? Or am I missing something further?

[Aspenor]

If they change how teleporting works for the devils, (aka web doesn't stop mental activities at all), won't that requirement become useless?

If they did that without implementing dimensional anchor and dimensional lock as spells, then Turbine is full of idiots.

[Inkblack]

...
i have a problem with people who do not maximise what they can do

several examples (all pertaining to shroud)
...
casters not going on portal/keeper clearing duty instead takes out the dreamsplitter and hitting the portal
...


Funny, if I see a caster ranging ahead in part 1, I get worried. I always assign the rogue to clear the trash, and ask a melee to help for orthons or devils. Everyone else is on the portal, even the casters.

Ink

[theblaz]

The ultimate is the sorceror who admits to having those spells but doesn't want to use them because then he won't be able to nuke as much.

That's fine with me.

Probably won't be able to nuke too much when I let those mobs run right past me and stomp you into the ground, either, but that's fine with me too.

[Hordo]

Last few weeks pugging out a few spots in Shroud, Hound, and Vision raids I keep hearing the same thing over and over from the sorcs as we prepare to assign roles, etc.............

"I Blow things up!"

This is in response to multiple questions:

*What CC spells do you have?
*Do you have extend?
*Do you have GH?
*Do you have ANY buffs?

While I play the game with a fairly serious raid guild who at times tend to get a bit to serious about the game we are here to have fun, and don't ever want to tell someone how to play their character. What it comes down to though is if your running with friends, your own guild, or solo choose whatever spell selection makes you happy. However, one of the things that makes this game unique is that it is very much a cooperative game. Kind of "it takes a village" to succesfully run a smooth raid. If your going to join PuG raids a certain level of team play is not to much to expect. Blow up all you want on your own, but an end-game raid means working together. That means buffing, extended haste, and crowd control. My sorc is a bit strange as he only runs a few raids at this point. So he carries knock (Shroud), Blur, GH, Displacement, web , symbol of stunning, acid fog, dimension door, etc. He "blows up stuff real good" with his direct damage spells, and has plenty. I don't find a need for everyone of them. I do find a need to help the party achieve it's goal in an efficient manner. I don't think all of that is necessary, but if you join a raid at least be more than a "solo" caster.

Just my thought after a few frustrating runs where we have effectively been 9-10 manning end raids

I am currently levelling up a Sorc that is in-between the two sides represented here. It is a 'big damage' spell penetration, try for the one-shot build, AKA aggro magnet ;), but has some CC and buffs, but not many. I do not have extend, as I have chosen to try to do certain things with this build that make that feat one I can live without (esp. as some spells like blur last long enough to get to the next shrine anyway at higher levels). Thus my haste is a short one, that is a concession to the 'in-the-moment' need for fighters to have it and the other caster(s) if any being a bit too busy. I have web and knock, and am going to take DD as well. Acid Fog is also on my list, but I won't be taking Resist or Protection spells, nor will I be taking GH or displacement as my 'damage' spells of those levels are my main focus. I agree with your opinion that casters should 'help the group' somehow other than by sheer damage, but let us for a moment remember that this is DDO...based on D & D, a role-playing game. Remember those nights around the table when the DM had your character meet that other player's character about whom you knew nothing previously and had to learn to be able to group well with. They may have been the polar opposite of you in terms of your ideas for a 'insert-class-here' but somehow you grew together and built a team. Granted, we don't have that sort of time-factor in DDO, unless it is within a guild or static party, but as high-level players we should be well-versed enough in our own game to be able to adapt ourselves and overcome any small peccadilloes like not having an extended 'insert-buff-here' to succeed in a quest. Yes, even the Shroud, Vod or Hound too are able to be won by parties that on the outside looking in have no business running together. It all depends on the players skills, intelligence and determination. As for me, you will find me dying in a quest near you...;)

[Venar]

Hordo, i understand thwy way you are leveling your sorc, and, in fact, it is a big design flaw in the game that nuking is inconsistant as you level.
A nuker spec can level up having a huge fun just 1 or 2 fireballing full room. Quest series like Threnal, Deleras, Co6, etc, can just be destroyed by nukage.

Alas, passed lvl 14, mob HP and sheer # of mobs per quest makes nuking ineffective. Mobs dont die anymore, and, on hard and elite, you'll barelly hurt them. Thus the need for more versatility.

[Missing_Minds]

If they did that without implementing dimensional anchor and dimensional lock as spells, then Turbine is full of idiots.

Thing is web doesn't change mental states, nor would hold monster. But dancing and flesh to stone should stop them. Some have argued about hold monster, but I don't agree with that one. There is the current thread about what should and shouldn't stop it.

However, I do agree. We really should have a dimensional lock spell. (which would then require them to change the AI drastically to compensate for them not being able to teleport to their target in which case they have to run and run and run, and well... that will get old real real fast, like fearsome on beardeds.)

[theblaz]

Or more focused nuking, ala polar ray and scorching rays.

Disintegrate has never impressed me, maybe I'm just not specced right or something, but I think it's just not worth my SPs.

But you're right, I stopped mass-nuking or mainly nuking after level 12 or so.

I can see the appeal of seeing huge red numbers above the mob's heads, but I like using a lot of different spells to make everything go as smoothly as possible.

[Hordo]

Hordo, i understand thwy way you are leveling your sorc, and, in fact, it is a big design flaw in the game that nuking is inconsistant as you level.
A nuker spec can level up having a huge fun just 1 or 2 fireballing full room. Quest series like Threnal, Deleras, Co6, etc, can just be destroyed by nukage.

Alas, passed lvl 14, mob HP and sheer # of mobs per quest makes nuking ineffective. Mobs dont die anymore, and, on hard and elite, you'll barelly hurt them. Thus the need for more versatility.

Understood, and yes, I plan to take F2S for just that sort of thing. The thing I know you understand, and that new folks to the game need to, is that at the very highest levels aggro necessarily must be obtained by tanks before the casters attempt to nuke...any CC is helpful prior to nuking only. After the nukage, forget about it. Bards, CC casters and the like must contain the mobs to keep the nukers alive long enough to do the job. And with the right build and items equipped one-touch on non-named mobs in the Shroud and Subterrane alike is not a problem at all. I agree that the party buffing spells are very useful, and my bard is a one-stop buffing shop for an entire raid party, but once aggro is attained, the one-shot nuking spells work just fine.

[Hordo]

Or more focused nuking, ala polar ray and scorching rays.

Disintegrate has never impressed me, maybe I'm just not specced right or something, but I think it's just not worth my SPs.

But you're right, I stopped mass-nuking or mainly nuking after level 12 or so.

I can see the appeal of seeing huge red numbers above the mob's heads, but I like using a lot of different spells to make everything go as smoothly as possible.

This is more the style of my sorc. The directed/focused nuking sorc. Yes, I have firewall and cone of cold, but my main focus is the one-shot assassination of one mob at a time, or to take out as many HPs as I can per shot to aid the tanks. I may have misspoken or allowed myself to be a tad bit misunderstood, but I am NOT a "let's hit the entire mass of the enemy and get them all really p'd off at me" kind of nuker...I use tactical nuclear weapons! LOL

[MrWizard]

I always find the true challenge in the game, when in a party, is the challenge of making it work with what you got.

I always wish for a CC caster, or fighters who use melee crowd control, but that seldom ever happens. You just gotta try to triumph in different ways.

AS far as Greater hero...a reavers rings can be bought on AH and if you need the extra +2 over regular heroism, you are a bit gimped as a fighter and should stay back. Also, they are available on scrolls and every gimp should just buy a lot and give to the caster so he/she can cast it on you.

Ddoor? That helps not much and you can still buy scrolls from us people who have a ton left....lol I would rather you had a CC or atack spell over Ddoor.

Extend? My sorc does not carry it. In almost no case is it needed except for people who want to be hasted ad nauseum....I would rather have an extra feat that will be used for a good reason.

Did not mean to bash even though it sounds lke it, but I think you are having trouble by having people join who do not play 'exactly the same way' as you want them too. Nothing is wrong with that, but you are definetly a 'this is the only way to do it' kind of player.
As much as you are annoyed by players who 'do it a different way, or just have fun' they are just as annoyed by your 'this is the way we are doing it no matter what and you are gimp for not doing it, or being able to do it my way' way of doing things.

That miscommunication, along with unneeded wants or urges on both sides, are causing the problem.
Extend is never needed, GH is not needed, ddoor is not needed. I do agree on Crowd control being more effective, but acid fog is a lot shorter than solid fog, so to ME...that is a gimped cloud you cast.

It is all in how we look at it. I think you would be best telling a group we are doing it 'my way and no other' and making sure the people in the group are into that type of play.

Personally I would rather have fun and try the challenge then do the long boring 'exact' thing every time...I am here to have fun and for me, that is not.

However for many it is....so just try to find people who play like you do and you will never have issues. Usually...lol

PS- none of my sorcs or wizzies were ever nukers..they were spell pen/enchant focus casters...and in only a few dungeons under 14thth did I see a need for some extra nuking ability (things like a red named vampire end fight)...but to gimp my build for one fight the party should be able to take as a group...I did not see the need....in MY eyes...

[MrWizard]

as far as web....have not used it since the nerf in mod 3.

I think my wizards have it but not my sorc. I have other spells that are far more effective on things, like hypno...and they last longer on high levels.

But my wiz still casts it a bit...he loves all the mobs on elite getting caught for a few seconds and then attacking him with all their aggro..including everything that runs through it.

Naw, no web for me... solid fog, ckill, hypno, charms, hold monster, and a few others are more preferable...to ME...

My favorites before the great nerf were web....it was awesome..and fog/ckill. And for my cleric the little known spell 'holy smite' that almost no one was using but used to cause all mobs to get stunned and just stand there.

Ah......those were the days.... How about those prot fire pots that gave you immunity to fire... <lights a pipe and tells the stories to young disbelievers at the tavern>

[Missing_Minds]

Naw, no web for me... solid fog, ckill, hypno, charms, hold monster, and a few others are more preferable...to ME...

does hypno actually make them stop while they remain hypnoed?

[Drekisen]

These are still new raids, even the Shroud now that all the exploits are gone. Let's face it, this is some hard content. Your facing raids that are over everyones CR level for one, which means u already have one thing going against you. You have finally entered into someone elses plane and are no longer battliing in urs, that's two strikes.

It's going to be difficult. I mean just about anyone can get into a Reaver Raid, given time it's going to be the same for these raids, once everyone has done it a bazillion times and actually has two or three more character levels.
And it goes way further than the sorc class as far a any arguement of not being a team player. What happened to the common sense of some sort of self sufficiency.

Part two of the Shroud....Devil pops, do any tanks have thier own remove curse potions....no.
Do any clerics know how to properly defend themselves when the devil starts attacking them in a tree while getting mana back....no.

I even realized if the devil pops in part two of the Shroud to not bother raging, because I know I am going to need to drink remove curse potions all the time. I'm better off staying alive and fighting unraged then dying repeatedly and trying to fight with many death penalties.

As far as the two new raids, I do it strictly for kicks, I don't expect to be victorious at them yet, as they are too new, people are still learning them. The Shroud, I get dissapointed, I think that raid is mostly a win situation by now, it's still complex tho.

Raids overall though, are a synergy of twelve people, lol, be grateful when u get a dragon raid completion on normal, because even that is a feat. It only takes one person to not care or not know to make a raid go bad, out of twelve people, ur chances are actually pretty decent everytime that can happen. Now apply this to u wanting to actually get a cooperative group to finish a CR 18 raid in a foreign plane.

I tend to be happy if I only end up with a couple red named chests along the path there.

Well, that's my opinion on it.

[Aspenor]

Naw, no web for me... solid fog, ckill, hypno, charms, hold monster, and a few others are more preferable...to ME...


Try using that in end-game raids...good luck to you.

The only effective spell in that list is solid fog, for the Hound and VoD.

Maxxed spell pen with a +14 modifier and heightened spells, and my will/fort save spells land maybe ~35&#37; of the time, and that's being generous. That's of course assuming the monsters aren't entirely immune to them (i.e. ALL monsters in the Hound of Xoriat are completely immune to all mind affecting spells).

[Citymorg]

With all due respect OP, this thread has been done before. What it comes down to is this: Wizards are generalist and Sorcerers are specialists. A Sorcerer who tries to be a generalist will not be very effecitive. Yes, you can spec a Sorcerer as a buff bot, but that build benefits the melee classes and isn't as much fun or as effective to play as a PROPERLY build nuker.

yes, there are some spells that are so useful to the entire party, I carry them on my Sorc. These are: Haste, Resist Energy (but she usually isn't the one to cast this), Protection from Energy, and Jump.

I always carry Disintigrate (untyped damage ray is very useful even if it doesn't do as much total damage as other resistable rays) and Flesh to Stone. That gives me 1 level 6 spell slot open. Do you want Acid Fog or Greater Heroism for your Shroud run? I think I have come to the conclusion that GH helps the party more, but that means I am going to need to use Cloudkill or Mind Fog as my "slow-down" fog. It works, just as well, but doesn't do DOT. Since you have a preconcieved notion of what I should have and should be doing, the assumption will be made that I have Acid Fog and if I don't I'm gimped. Not the case, but you have no way of knowing that.

I don't take Heighten, even with my webs. It's a waste of a feat. I am level 16, heighten won't help that much, but cost me more SP. My webs hit just fine without it. I took Extend so I don't have to cast Haste as often, and 1 resist can last the entire dungeon. Those are the only reasons I have extend. Want me to swap to Heighten so my PKs, FoDs and Damage spells land better? Fine with me, just don't go screaming "Where's my haste?" when I'm busy killing something.

Now, explain to me, why should I specialize in buffing you so you can swing and swing and swing (a bit better) when I can instantly or instantly through DPS kill something before you get to it?

If you want someone you can buff your brains out, recall out, change spells for each part of the Shroud and the pick the exact spell you want when you want it, get a Wizard. If you accept a Sorcerer to do that, understand they will not be able to do everything on demand. What can do is extemely powerful and useful to the party, just understand it may not be exactly the way you want when you want it.

[VirieSquichie]

The fog nerf killed my favorite (up till then) wizard. I refuse to waste a sorc spot on a fog spell that will only last 30 seconds or so, and no fog spell should ever need to be extended. Nerfing those durations was a big admission that their AI coder(s) couldn't do their jobs decently. My wizard dropped all but Solid Fog and CK from her hotbars, and only actually casts them in certain unusual situations.

My capped sorc, having only a few spells that I'd even consider extending, does not carry extend. It's too niche. I don't care how good your 3 dungeons' loot is, having extend and a gimped fog spell for those 3 dungeons out of the whole game is ridiculous and I'd rather be kicked from your group than gimp my character for such a requirement.

I have haste. I have resist. I have GH. I have jump - as much for the party's clerics as for myself, though I have been known to jumping bean over the party's fighters to lead mobs back to them. I have the instakill that the highest level areas nearly require me to have, and I can nuke where it's appropriate. I like nuking, but I'll do whatever's most effective even if it's mostly spamming things like Hold Monster for my friendly neighborhood paladin to autocrit with his banisher...

I even picked up web on my second sorc, though I rarely use it because the current implementation is sorely broken. My main sorc never bothered respec'ing to get web and so far I haven't had a time when I missed it. I have not done the two new raids, perhaps that's why.

I haven't put Heighten metamagic on any caster I've made since my now-dead CC wizard was killed by the fog nerf. My wizard may get it for her next feat, my sorcs aren't likely to because they have so few feats to work with.

All I can say is that if my casters (who contribute a lot to their parties' overall effectiveness) aren't up to your standards and you refuse to play with them, don't expect my clerics to play with you.

[Citymorg]

The fog nerf killed my favorite (up till then) wizard. I refuse to waste a sorc spot on a fog spell that will only last 30 seconds or so, and no fog spell should ever need to be extended. Nerfing those durations was a big admission that their AI coder(s) couldn't do their jobs decently. My wizard dropped all but Solid Fog and CK from her hotbars, and only actually casts them in certain unusual situations.

My capped sorc, having only a few spells that I'd even consider extending, does not carry extend. It's too niche. I don't care how good your 3 dungeons' loot is, having extend and a gimped fog spell for those 3 dungeons out of the whole game is ridiculous and I'd rather be kicked from your group than gimp my character for such a requirement.

I have haste. I have resist. I have GH. I have jump - as much for the party's clerics as for myself, though I have been known to jumping bean over the party's fighters to lead mobs back to them. I have the instakill that the highest level areas nearly require me to have, and I can nuke where it's appropriate. I like nuking, but I'll do whatever's most effective even if it's mostly spamming things like Hold Monster for my friendly neighborhood paladin to autocrit with his banisher...

I even picked up web on my second sorc, though I rarely use it because the current implementation is sorely broken. My main sorc never bothered respec'ing to get web and so far I haven't had a time when I missed it. I have not done the two new raids, perhaps that's why.

I haven't put Heighten metamagic on any caster I've made since my now-dead CC wizard was killed by the fog nerf. My wizard may get it for her next feat, my sorcs aren't likely to because they have so few feats to work with.

All I can say is that if my casters (who contribute a lot to their parties' overall effectiveness) aren't up to your standards and you refuse to play with them, don't expect my clerics to play with you.

Very Well Said.

[GlassCannon]

You can start by making sense.

And you could start by being more fair and less opinionated.

Try avoiding the study of 5 year olds playing a Sorc.

[GlassCannon]

Both my sorcs are utility nukers.

They can literally carry a party through a high level dungeon, but would need to take special measures to do so. In the recent PuG situations, these "special situations" are nearly always the case. Fighters dying 20+ times and going through 3 sets of gear, clerics getting crushed because of it, and the whole time I am chugging along, using potions to self-heal and killing everything the idiots leave behind to chase me around in a bloodthirsty rage.

Yes, I use Solid Fog. Nowadays I need to Extend it because some idiot somewhere thought it was a good idea to propose to Turbine that they change the durations. I also Extend my necessary buffs when I need to(Displacement, Haste), mainly because it costs less for an extend than it does to doublecast for the same duration. Casters without extend spend MORE SP for the SAME effect duration.

Spells I expect a sorc to have are: Resist Energy, Jump, Haste, Displacement, Knock, Protection from Energy(for those DBF's in Shroud, and other environmental hazards in late game content), Phantasmal Killer, Chill Touch(Undead Beholder, anyone?), Solid Fog(Or Acid Fog whichever), Cloudkill. Basic situational utility spells.


I ran out of feats or I would have Heighten for my Web. In fact, that is the feat slated for level 18. For Crowd Control I constantly hear people scream for Otto's Disco Sphere, which I refuse to carry. Finger of Death is far more functional, and my sorc is not made for spell penetration. No, she will not spec Spell Pen when she can grab a Greater Penetration scepter and do the same duty as a semi-gimp sorc.

As for the main damage spells I use, I use them in this order or preference: Scorching Ray, Delayed Blast Fireball, Fire Wall(This is so gimp now it's literally depressing. Whatever numbskull had the fog timers nerfed apparently wants us to stop using AOE damage spells altogether. Fireball, I suspect you get the nerf bat next...), Fireball. For Ice I prefer Cone of Cold, Polar Ray, Niac's. For those darn Blackbones I use Disentigrate of course. In A Vision of Destruction I am forced to use Mnemonics if I intend to help out at all with the Orthons. Those are not cheap, and are not anything near common. On my Acid/Lightning I mainly use Chain Lightning, Lightning Bolt and Ball Lightning. If it has Evasion I use Shocking Grasp, Melf's and Acid Fog(Duration is completely broken on Acid Rain, needs to be at least 45 seconds, not 0.005 seconds).

The problem is not the damage sorc.

The problem is how DDO has been coded of late.

[Astria]

I carry buffs on my sorcerer because they help keep him alive. I'm generally pretty willing to throw out some other buffs if I'm partying with nice people, and it is necessary. The main problem I see in many groups is that many seem to expect personal buff bots out of casters, and ask for buffs in situations where they don't need them. Almost no one needs GH in Shroud part 1, yet I've been yelled at for not passing it out to every person in the group ( mind you, I do pass out resists because of casters attacking portal beaters). I don't mind it when casters don't throw out tons of buffs on any of my melees. I carry the essential potions nearly all the time ( unless I forget to restock, in which case the blame is on me if I die because of a failed save on a fireball or something)....fact of the matter is, everyone has a different idea for whatever class they play than anyone else. It may not always be the most effective, but I imagine it is fun for them, so let them be and have fun....and carry the essential potions so that you're not constantly relying on other characters to make yours effective.

[VirieSquichie]

With all due respect OP, this thread has been done before. What it comes down to is this: Wizards are generalist and Sorcerers are specialists. A Sorcerer who tries to be a generalist will not be very effecitive. Yes, you can spec a Sorcerer as a buff bot, but that build benefits the melee classes and isn't as much fun or as effective to play as a PROPERLY build nuker.

yes, there are some spells that are so useful to the entire party, I carry them on my Sorc. These are: Haste, Resist Energy (but she usually isn't the one to cast this), Protection from Energy, and Jump.

I always carry Disintigrate (untyped damage ray is very useful even if it doesn't do as much total damage as other resistable rays) and Flesh to Stone. That gives me 1 level 6 spell slot open. Do you want Acid Fog or Greater Heroism for your Shroud run? I think I have come to the conclusion that GH helps the party more, but that means I am going to need to use Cloudkill or Mind Fog as my "slow-down" fog. It works, just as well, but doesn't do DOT. Since you have a preconcieved notion of what I should have and should be doing, the assumption will be made that I have Acid Fog and if I don't I'm gimped. Not the case, but you have no way of knowing that.

I don't take Heighten, even with my webs. It's a waste of a feat. I am level 16, heighten won't help that much, but cost me more SP. My webs hit just fine without it. I took Extend so I don't have to cast Haste as often, and 1 resist can last the entire dungeon. Those are the only reasons I have extend. Want me to swap to Heighten so my PKs, FoDs and Damage spells land better? Fine with me, just don't go screaming "Where's my haste?" when I'm busy killing something.

Now, explain to me, why should I specialize in buffing you so you can swing and swing and swing (a bit better) when I can instantly or instantly through DPS kill something before you get to it?

If you want someone you can buff your brains out, recall out, change spells for each part of the Shroud and the pick the exact spell you want when you want it, get a Wizard. If you accept a Sorcerer to do that, understand they will not be able to do everything on demand. What can do is extemely powerful and useful to the party, just understand it may not be exactly the way you want when you want it.


Very Well Said.

I was about to say the same of your post, but you beat me to it. :)

[VirieSquichie]

Both my sorcs are utility nukers.
Fire Wall(This is so gimp now it's literally depressing. Whatever numbskull had the fog timers nerfed apparently wants us to stop using AOE damage spells altogether.
...
For those darn Blackbones I use Disentigrate of course.
...
The problem is not the damage sorc.

The problem is how DDO has been coded of late.

Firewall, agree - and it's the melees who can't seem to close the kill count window that are to blame, I think.

Blackbones...get 'em clustered together and Ball Lightning the lot of 'em. Two or three hits takes out the whole group, I find...and it's cheaper than giving each one its own disintegrate.

The coding seems to be knee-jerk reactions that are often poor judgement...but since they're easier fixes than coming up with real solutions, I doubt we'll see much improvement. At least the latest supposed firewall nerf turned out to be hype over nothing. I still get PUG tanks shouting at me to stop casting firewall because it doesn't stack with itself, meanwhile I'm watching clouds of red numbers float up from the rapidly incinerating mobs...

[geoffhanna]

OP - build your party however you want. It's your group and I completely respect your rights to fill it however you want. Even if that means you'll take my wizard but not my sorceror.

As for everyone else... this has so been done to death so many times... ai yi yi ... but okay here is a somewhat harshly stated reminder of about ten thousand earlier threads:

The devs have to keep making up crazy stuff like portals and pitfiends with a quarter million hitpoints because otherwise the game would be nothing but nuking sorcs (okay there would be blade barrier clerics too)
The flavor of the month today is TWF. Next module, who knows? But whatever it is I am guessing the only thing keeping a nuking UMD sorc from doing it better is some weird artifical "plot device"
In spite of the devs best efforts to come up with artifical class balance, a well built and well played nuking sorceror will still likely be soloing all of the content that doesn't physically require bodies in multiple places at the same time

p.s. If I'm not supposed to spam PK/Fod/FtS as fast as I can, why do I have so many freaking spell points?

[Rog]

as long as you dont drop fire walls in my hound elite raid and say look i got the fenser aggo and 30 flenser chase you around in a big squire we good dont worry my fire wall will kill them sooner or later.
yes this has happend to me we did not get a completion that run and half the pug dropped party.
lunarsong

[In_Like_Flynn]

The great thing about opinions is that mine is never wrong.