The best bow?

[sumnz]

For any ranged lovers out there, if you only had a choice of one bow which would it be?

Greensteel with lightning proc

Wounding of puncturing

Silver longbow

Bows only please, no repeaters.

[Impaqt]

All three for different situations.... Probobly the best 1-2-3 Punch Goin.

[Premier]

I'm becoming a big fan of my W/P Longbow. I know that I'll eventually take mobs down with it. It also draws less aggro on me.

The Silver Longbow all around dmg is awesome but it draws too much aggro and I take down mobs slower than with the W/P.

I'm finding all my Greater Bane bows are becoming more useless after I got that W/P Longbow. (*sigh*)

I don't have a Greensteel bow but it sounds pretty sweet! Peace!

-Premier

[Rendigar]

I use a +2 keen of pure good. A guildie uses a silver bow. I would choose my pure good bow over the silver. Personal preference.

[Impaqt]

I use a +2 keen of pure good. A guildie uses a silver bow. I would choose my pure good bow over the silver. Personal preference.


The Silver Bow is a +2 Bow... It actualy has the Same Crit range as yoru Keen Bow... But is NOT "Keen" so it can still benefit from Improved Crit.. To top it all off, its Holy Instead of PG.. So it does an additional D6 Damge... it is Superior to your +2Keen of PG is Every conceivable way.

[Korvek]

The Silver Bow is a +2 Bow... It actualy has the Same Crit range as yoru Keen Bow... But is NOT "Keen" so it can still benefit from Improved Crit.. To top it all off, its Holy Instead of PG.. So it does an additional D6 Damge... it is Superior to your +2Keen of PG is Every conceivable way.

Don't forget it does 1d10 damage instead of 1d8 while you're at it.

[Impaqt]

Don't forget it does 1d10 damage instead of 1d8 while you're at it.

oh yeah, that too.

[EightyFour]

Lightning Proc, as long as it's a 5% proc chance. Mainly because it works on red named and stuff immune to critical hit's and well normal drop most anything it proc's on. The WoP bow is good too, but your looking at a 10% crit range for non barb for 1d6 con damage, which means even on a crit it's not going to drop whatever it hit's on a crit unless it has a low con to begin with. Plus the WoP bow doesn't work on red names nor things immune to critical hits.

[Aranticus]

Lightning Proc, as long as it's a 5% proc chance. Mainly because it works on red named and stuff immune to critical hit's and well normal drop most anything it proc's on. The WoP bow is good too, but your looking at a 10% crit range for non barb for 1d6 con damage, which means even on a crit it's not going to drop whatever it hit's on a crit unless it has a low con to begin with. Plus the WoP bow doesn't work on red names nor things immune to critical hits.

it is quite well tested by the community that the proc is a 2% chance

[Aranticus]

For any ranged lovers out there, if you only had a choice of one bow which would it be?

Greensteel with lightning proc good vs non evil mobs without elect immunity

Wounding of puncturing good for low con mobs or non red/purple named, against elite stuff ie orthons, the efficiency is lower

Silver longbow good for evil mobs. most efficient when used by a high strength character due to the expanded crit range. against non evil mobs, its actually weaker than a pure good bow

Bows only please, no repeaters.

see red

[Rendigar]

Aranticus just stated as to why pure good > holy.

[RobbinB]

I'll take tier 3 positive greensteel over both silver bow and lightning strike greensteel.

[maddmatt70]

I'll take tier 3 positive greensteel over both silver bow and lightning strike greensteel.

You mean because you made one. Looking back from a mathematical standpoint there is no contest between the pos and lightning strike none whatsoever. Yes, the lightning strike is that far superior. You might as well argue the earth is flat or something else untrue.

[Soldarm]

You might as well argue the earth is flat or something else untrue.

Don't forget that it travels around on the back of a giant turtle...lol:p

[redoubt]

Silver bow as soon as you can get it. Rules over everything of similar level.

Wounding of Puncturing once you can get it. For anything immune to con damage switch back to the silver bow.

Shroud 3rd Tier bow.
--Lightning
--Triple Pos
--Mineral II
Any of these three would do great. If you have the Silver bow and the W/P I'd say get the lightning if you want the flashy numbers or get a mineral II for transmuting. Use W/P most of the time, use shroud bows if immune to con and the silver bow if its evil, undead and can be critted. Either way you could go with just 3 bows and do really well against pretty much everything. (Guess, I should start cleaning up my inventory!)

:D

[rest]

I <3 my silver longbow, but I'm not high enough level for a WoP let alone greensteel.

[RobbinB]

You mean because you made one. Looking back from a mathematical standpoint there is no contest between the pos and lightning strike none whatsoever. Yes, the lightning strike is that far superior. You might as well argue the earth is flat or something else untrue.

Depends what we are arguing. I wasn't trying to say that the tier 3 positive has a higher damage output than the lightning bow against a high hp non-immune foe such as the pit fiend. Obviously, it doesn't.

But what about against "normal" mobs, keeping in mind you will only have the one bow? Less mobs have immunity to good versus electrical damage, the tier 3 positive comes with a somewhat ok disruption effect against undead, and the resurrection clicky is pretty handy too. Also, the lightning strike is rare so hard to count on and frequently results in "overkill" (and sometimes embarrassing premature killage in shroud part 2) when it finally does go off.

Even against something like the pit fiend how good is the lightning strike really? What is the average damage per shot done by a typical ranger using a tier 3 positive bow against the fiend? 50? 60? 70? So if the lightning strike is happening 2% of the time (1 in 50) that's an extra 600 hp-ish damage per 2500 or more hp damage. So 20 percent more damage at best? And that's putting aside the extra 3 devil scales you need to make the lightning strike.

For all purpose use, I'll stick with my tier 3 positive bow. A mathematical comparison of the two bows (or a link to one) would be kinda cool to see though.

[Vengenance]

Tier III positive > Silver Bow
Tier III Lightening > Tier III positive
Tier III Lightening > Mineral II

Silver Bow > pretty much any other bow in the game.
W/P is situational, against trash mobs while soloing it's nice, but against all end game mobs vorpals work better.

[gfunk]

also... weakening/enfeebling for low str mobs like beholders (on avg str 10 i believe). This bow is great because by the time the mobs have caught up with you, they are dealing significantly less damage (if you hit them a few times with manyshot).

and... Unwavering Ardency for damage that betters the silver bow, and has the added benefit of slowburst and cursespewing effects. If i could take only one bow (as OP asked) it would be this one because it would have meant that I had beat the Abbot (which is on my to do list..).. it also looks cool.

[Ganak]

My archer uses a triple positive greensteel bow, which is superior to the silver longbow, and also a triple earth bow (earthgrab is especially nice for ranged). You can add silver, adamantine, etc arrows to overcome dr.

Using both a triple pos and triple earth bow, if a mob has dr against one, I just use the other. Both cover most of the mobs in the game. The lightening is way overrated imo. Min2 is a waste on a bow, because you can use different types of arrow to overcome dr.

My archer uses a wop too in the right situations.

[dmondave1]

No green steel long bow here yet, I carry 2 bows on my str based ranger.
Silver Long Bow, my first choice for damage. I love the d10 & crit range.
+4 Acid Pure Good for everything the Silver Bow won't damage with holy.

[maddmatt70]

My archer uses a triple positive greensteel bow, which is superior to the silver longbow, and also a triple earth bow (earthgrab is especially nice for ranged). You can add silver, adamantine, etc arrows to overcome dr.



It depends a little bit on your archer build, but for most archer builds (if you can actually do some dps and have improved crit range) the silver bow is better then the triple positive bow and will continue to get better in relation to all the greensteel bows if they keep improving dps via better bard songs, better enhancements, better outside buffs, more strength enhancements and tomes, favored enemy enhancements, etc.. This is all true because of the expanded crit range of the silver bow and if mobs don't have fortification in the future. Just saying something is better doesn't cut it - do the math. The lightning strike bow is the best bow (other then w/p) in the game because of lightning strike, but if the base damage for archers keeps going up the silver bow will overtake it.

[iruka41]

Unwavering Ardency (http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p170/Borrigain/bow.jpg)(from Abbot)

2d12 Base Dmg
Cursespewing/Slowburst
Immunity to Fear

Maybe not the best DPS in certain situation, but still the BEST LOOKING bow IMO :D

[Lonewolfe]

The silver bow is an awesome bow and very ez to p/u. The drop rate of named loot in the church quest is better than 50% or so in my experience and I've run it a ton. You aren't going to get a bow everytime, but there are only 4 items that fall: cloak of shadows, silver bow, bloodplate and frag. All of these items used to be awesome back in the day, but new lvls and loot have reduced it down to mainly the bow as being good. I think the stats of the bow and the ease of getting it, make it the best....at least for the majority of a ranger's career.

That said anyone that wants to bash the w/p is crazy. My 2 ftr/14 ranger has a w/p longbow, impr crit ranged, ftr haste boost, impr precise shot and a 24 str which is enough to get thru dr w/out special arrows. When I want to kill something non-red named, I hit multi shot, ftr haste boost/haste pot and aim for the guy in the back after i kite them. They drop like a cheerleader on prom nite. Trash mobs only...pffft, whatever. w/p with 4 arrows, faster attack and impr crit....forget about it.

For end game/red named, I like the pos bow because it hits 90% of the mobs in the game. It may not have the 2% big pay off, but it does nice consistent dmg that you can count on. Yes, I've see the lightning bow strike and kill, but I like #'s I can count on w/out a lucky streak. I think either bow is nice and it just goes to preference/play style.

[GrayOldDruid]

Weapon Comparison Tool Says (on my character) :
The Silver Bow is 4 points of damage below my +4 Holy Burst of Pure Good on average dmg per "swing".
The Silver Bow is 3 points of damage below my +4 Holy Burst of Pure Good on average dmg per second.

It is only 1 point below my Greensteel shock/icy burst bow in dpswi and dpsec. When I get either (Good Blast) or (Shocking Blast with freezing ice effect) (single shard or dual shard, decisions, decisions) it will drop to 4 points below on both.

It is 1 point above my +3 Flaming Burst (and Icy Burst/acid burst) of Pure Good bow.

It ain't all that. PERIOD.
For the Minimum Level of it, it is pretty dang good. Once you get up in level, the Silver Bow just ain't all that special. MAYBE if you're strength based it would be better... but then why are you using a bow???

[Vengenance]

It depends a little bit on your archer build, but for most archer builds (if you can actually do some dps and have improved crit range) the silver bow is better then the triple positive bow and will continue to get better in relation to all the greensteel bows if they keep improving dps via better bard songs, better enhancements, better outside buffs, more strength enhancements and tomes, favored enemy enhancements, etc.. This is all true because of the expanded crit range of the silver bow and if mobs don't have fortification in the future. Just saying something is better doesn't cut it - do the math. The lightning strike bow is the best bow (other then w/p) in the game because of lightning strike, but if the base damage for archers keeps going up the silver bow will overtake it.

I just used the weapon comparison tool at various strengths ranges and a triple positive bow handily beat the silver bow every time. Triple positive beats the Silver Bow, it actually beats the Lightening II, but since you can't accurately model the lightening strike in the analysis tool I can't say for sure wether or not this is the case.

My bow wielding ranger pretty much only carries the Tier III Positive, W/P, and Cursespewing of Destruction. At some point I'll make her a lightening II.

[ArkoHighStar]

Weapon Comparison Tool Says (on my character) :
The Silver Bow is 4 points of damage below my +4 Holy Burst of Pure Good on average dmg per "swing".
The Silver Bow is 3 points of damage below my +4 Holy Burst of Pure Good on average dmg per second.

It is only 1 point below my Greensteel shock/icy burst bow in dpswi and dpsec. When I get either (Good Blast) or (Shocking Blast with freezing ice effect) (single shard or dual shard, decisions, decisions) it will drop to 4 points below on both.

It is 1 point above my +3 Flaming Burst (and Icy Burst/acid burst) of Pure Good bow.

It ain't all that. PERIOD.
For the Minimum Level of it, it is pretty dang good. Once you get up in level, the Silver Bow just ain't all that special. MAYBE if you're strength based it would be better... but then why are you using a bow???


thats a what lvl 14 weapon, and much harder to get than a silver bow. Given its ML and that fact that it only falls 3 points behind your bow. I would say that it definitely is all that, simply because of its usefulness over a broader level range. Meaning at lvl 6 I am only 3 points base damage away from a ml14 weapon

[GrayOldDruid]

thats a what lvl 14 weapon, and much harder to get than a silver bow. Given its ML and that fact that it only falls 3 points behind your bow. I would say that it definitely is all that, simply because of its usefulness over a broader level range. Meaning at lvl 6 I am only 3 points base damage away from a ml14 weapon

True, thats why I said, "For the Minimum Level of it, it is pretty dang good. Once you get up in level, the Silver Bow just ain't all that special."

Because people are advocating using the Silver Bow for end-game content. It is an awesome mid-level weapon, no doubt. But it is NOT as great as people claim for higher level content.

[maddmatt70]

I just used the weapon comparison tool at various strengths ranges and a triple positive bow handily beat the silver bow every time. Triple positive beats the Silver Bow, it actually beats the Lightening II, but since you can't accurately model the lightening strike in the analysis tool I can't say for sure wether or not this is the case.

My bow wielding ranger pretty much only carries the Tier III Positive, W/P, and Cursespewing of Destruction. At some point I'll make her a lightening II.

So what is this weapon comparison tool you speak off.. Does it include bard buffs which you are virtually guaranteed to recieve in all the end raids if you play in them.. Since the game right now at end game is about raids that should be a part of any calculations. How about favored enemy and for that matter bow wielders should have a hefty strength after all missing with a bow is pretty difficult to do so why build a character with a million dex and no strength when you don't need a million dex..

Lightning strike goes off 1.75 &#37; of the time which = about 10 pts of damage per hit. Every person who says triple positive yadda yadda really when it comes down to is that person decided not to spend 24 larges on a lightning strike bow and instead decided to spend 12 as there is no reason not to make a lightning bow - I mean 10 more pts of damage are you kidding me..

I calculated the numbers in a comparison of the triple positive bow and my ranged character with various buff levels at when he had one madstone which gives him 36 str and with and without bard buffs and the dps with the silver bow was more with bard buffs. To compare my character to a ranger he does a little less damage then a ranger shooting at a favored enemy who has about 24 str. So if the ranger shoots at a non favored evil enemy the triple positive bow is worth it, but against favored enemies not so much and with 4 favored enemies most mobs are covered every new mod. By the way for my character who has more of a constant damage (rangers damage changes alot if enemy is a favored enemy or not) the silver bow is still better then triple positive or equal depending on buffs. As I pointed out the better buffs and base damage gets the better the silver bow because of its additional crit range.

Now currently the lightning strike bow is better hands down the numbers also bear that out. On a crit the triple positive does an extra d6 over the lightning strike bow which averages out to 0.35 more damage per hit, but the lightning strike adds 10 more damage which means the lightning bow does 9.65 more points of damage per hit...

[Zenako]

True, thats why I said, "For the Minimum Level of it, it is pretty dang good. Once you get up in level, the Silver Bow just ain't all that special."

Because people are advocating using the Silver Bow for end-game content. It is an awesome mid-level weapon, no doubt. But it is NOT as great as people claim for higher level content.

Just curious, but when you ran the comparison was that assuming Improved Crit Feat? Going from 10% crit, 85% normal, 5% miss to 20% crit, 75% normal and 5% miss is better than the 5%,90%,5% going to 10%,85%,5%. IF you assume all other things being equal, the silver does from 9.5% (without Improved Crit) to 18% (with imporved crit) more damage just on critical multipliers. So your base damage needs to be that much higher just to balance out.

For most dedicated archers, getting past DR should not be an issue (barring exceptional DR like the Fiend, but then it is not hard to stock up a few thousand silver arrows now...)

[GrayOldDruid]

Just curious, but when you ran the comparison was that assuming Improved Crit Feat? Going from 10% crit, 85% normal, 5% miss to 20% crit, 75% normal and 5% miss is better than the 5%,90%,5% going to 10%,85%,5%. IF you assume all other things being equal, the silver does from 9.5% (without Improved Crit) to 18% (with imporved crit) more damage just on critical multipliers. So your base damage needs to be that much higher just to balance out.

For most dedicated archers, getting past DR should not be an issue (barring exceptional DR like the Fiend, but then it is not hard to stock up a few thousand silver arrows now...)

When I ran the Comparison tool, I put in the stats for my character, the stats for the bow and it has pre-loaded the stats for the silver bow. I did check improved crit range, because I have improved crit - ranged. Going on Crits alone, sure it will have a slight edge. It beats a +2 Holy Composite Longbow hands down. Again, I also point out I said : Weapon Comparison Tool Says (on my character) :

Probably with higher strength and lower dex, maybe the silver bow would be okay. On a character with all 16's in the stats... I dunno which would edge out.... It seems (I went and used the comparison tool) the Silver Bow is about equal to a +2 Holy Composite Longbow of Pure Good. I flipped the Dex and Str bonus and... ( 10 and 4 ) and my +4 Holy Burst of Pure Good still on top.

As far as the Silver Bow being easier to get... ?? I have NEVER pulled a Silver Bow. I had a guildie give me one and I used it for a while, but never was too impressed. I HAVE pulled the +4 Icy Burst of Pure Good, +4 Flaming burst of Pure Good.... I actually bought a +2 Holy Burst of Pure Good (still 1 point better dps) on the AH.

To be "Awesome" the Silver Bow must be used at mid-levels against Evil creatures who are susceptible to critical hits. Neutral, cuts it down, immune to critical cuts it way down.

[Vengenance]

So what is this weapon comparison tool you speak off.. Does it include bard buffs which you are virtually guaranteed to recieve in all the end raids if you play in them.. Since the game right now at end game is about raids that should be a part of any calculations. How about favored enemy and for that matter bow wielders should have a hefty strength after all missing with a bow is pretty difficult to do so why build a character with a million dex and no strength when you don't need a million dex..

Lightning strike goes off 1.75 % of the time which = about 10 pts of damage per hit. Every person who says triple positive yadda yadda really when it comes down to is that person decided not to spend 24 larges on a lightning strike bow and instead decided to spend 12 as there is no reason not to make a lightning bow - I mean 10 more pts of damage are you kidding me..

I calculated the numbers in a comparison of the triple positive bow and my ranged character with various buff levels at when he had one madstone which gives him 36 str and with and without bard buffs and the dps with the silver bow was more with bard buffs. To compare my character to a ranger he does a little less damage then a ranger shooting at a favored enemy who has about 24 str. So if the ranger shoots at a non favored evil enemy the triple positive bow is worth it, but against favored enemies not so much and with 4 favored enemies most mobs are covered every new mod. By the way for my character who has more of a constant damage (rangers damage changes alot if enemy is a favored enemy or not) the silver bow is still better then triple positive or equal depending on buffs. As I pointed out the better buffs and base damage gets the better the silver bow because of its additional crit range.

Now currently the lightning strike bow is better hands down the numbers also bear that out. On a crit the triple positive does an extra d6 over the lightning strike bow which averages out to 0.35 more damage per hit, but the lightning strike adds 10 more damage which means the lightning bow does 9.65 more points of damage per hit...

I used JJFlanigans tool to calculate the weapon damage.

Here are the assumptions:
Improved Critical Both
32 Str/34 Dex
45 AC
Results (Damage per Sec):Silverbow 39DPS /Tier III Positive 54DPS

Remove Improved Crit: Silverbow 35DPS/ Tier III Positive 50 DPS

Apply Fort: Silverbow 26 DPS/ Tier III Positive 45DPS

Apply Bard Songs (+8 Damage): Silverbow 51DPS/Tier III Positive 64 DPS

Add increase of strength (36 Str): Silverbow 54 DPS/Tier III Positive 66 DPS

Do your own analysis, but don't be hater just because you're wrong. Again, I can't model a Lightening II, so it may prove to be better than Tier III positive, but I'm sure both are better than the silverbow.

[iruka41]

so why build a character with a million dex and no strength when you don't need a million dex..

Million DEX matters A LOT when it comes to AC point, especially when you consider end-game raids.
And it doesn't require a 'no strength', unless 22~24STR means 'no strength' :D

[Jopin]

I mostly use my paralyzing bow and let my WF barb guildie do all the actual killing.

[sirgog]

I use 2 on Disector.

Main one: +3 Wounding of Puncturing - manyshot W/P kills anything that can't teleport or phase out fast, save for rednameds.

Secondary: +5 Holy Longbow of Righteousness - Makes the Silver Bow look terrible. The +7 to hit against evil foes makes up for the Manyshot penalty (which is a very serious penalty when you are a Str build). The +14 damage over base (+5 enhancement, +2 Righteousness, +7 average roll on Holy) means I can deal acceptable damage on rednameds that, for some weird reason, I am ranging. (Queen Lailat for one) The ability to use silver arrows, adamantine arrows and cold iron arrows allows me to beat all DRs in the game (that I can think of) save Eladrin DR on Running with the Devils elite.

When I got this bow, my Silver Bow started gathering dust. It's sold now. Except if you hit a foe on a 5 or higher when manyshotting, the Silver Bow is just worse in every way than this +7 Holy bow - less chance of scoring a hit, less chance of confirming your crit threats, less average damage per hit

Were I willing to spend 24 large ingredients on ranged combat, I'd change this bow to be a Holy Shocking Burst (something) of Lightning Blast. Even though the proc is generally accepted to be only 1%, that's still pretty much 6-6.2 free damage on every hit - which adds up fast.

[Slink]

The only bow i absolutely refuse to leave the shed with is my +3 weaken/enfeeble longbow. After a few volleys, makes the fighters think they are gods and makes any beholder impotent(if only those silly tanks knew how much i was helpin them out). Aside from that im thouroughly jealous about someone owning a +4 holyburst/pg longbow. Have a longsword and the numbers are up there, if i could just find it in a longbow in that flavor id be content for a while.

Slink

[Jay203]

Unwavering Ardency (http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p170/Borrigain/bow.jpg)(from Abbot)

2d12 Base Dmg
Cursespewing/Slowburst
Immunity to Fear

Maybe not the best DPS in certain situation, but still the BEST LOOKING bow IMO :D


curses! i want that bow! it looks freaking sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet!

[Slink]

curses! i want that bow! it looks freaking sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet!


Meh that isnt a bow, someone robbed bullwinkle

[Jay203]

Meh that isnt a bow, someone robbed bullwinkle

bah! someone has no taste in bows!

[nbhs275]

Million DEX matters A LOT when it comes to AC point, especially when you consider end-game raids.
And it doesn't require a 'no strength', unless 22~24STR means 'no strength' :D

well when your hitting on a 2 with a 26 dex...i much rather have the extra 10 str..

[iruka41]

well when your hitting on a 2 with a 26 dex...i much rather have the extra 10 str..

I'd rather have extra 10 STR too even if I miss on 4.
I even wrote in another thread that
"Best Ranged chanacter should even give level up stat points into STR, not DEX,
because you can hit things with 26DEX with no problem anyways. You need more damage(Bow_STR) instead."

But that's not the point here.
He said "why build DEX-based character with million DEX and no STR when you don't need million DEX?"
and I gave my words: "Million DEX because AC matters, and it doesn't require 'no STR'".

No need to bring attack bonus up because that's not the point here :)


P.S. And it's not 10 extra STR. It's more like 6~8 STR because DEX-based builds can still give enough starting stat points into STR.

[gfunk]

The only bow i absolutely refuse to leave the shed with is my +3 weaken/enfeeble longbow. After a few volleys, makes the fighters think they are gods and makes any beholder impotent(if only those silly tanks knew how much i was helpin them out). Aside from that im thouroughly jealous about someone owning a +4 holyburst/pg longbow. Have a longsword and the numbers are up there, if i could just find it in a longbow in that flavor id be content for a while.

Slink

i totally agree.. the w/e is an awesome bow. What makes it even better is that you can get them for a reasonable price on the AH.

Also, i compared some the total damage output of some bows vs increasing damage modifiers (things like favored enermy, str bonus, bard songs would factor into here). I looked at a range of damage modifiers from 0 to 120 (not that it is possible to get that high.. maybe somewhere in the +40ish range).

Weapons with higher crit ranges will eventually overtake the total damage output of lower crit ranged weapons. This seems to be one of the points that causes people to disagree as one bow might be better for a dex build, while another is better for a strength build. I assumed that anything above a 1 would hit (which probably isnt too far from the truth for most builds which concentrate on ranging). I also assumed that improved crit ranged was taken as a feat.

-The lightning strike is the best DPS bow by a fair margin, assuming a 2% proc rate. It is not overtake by the silver bow until a damage modifier of +106 (which is clearly impossible... currently)
-The triple positive is also better than the silver by a fair margin, though the silver catches up if you can get to +47 damage bonuse.
-The mineral II was slightly better than the triple positive, however, if you accounted for the loss of the acid damage (for agains the fiend), than the trip pos with silver arrows is better.
-A +4 holyburst of pure good is marginally better than the silver bow up until a damage bonus of +23 (not sure where you would find a bow like that. The best i could find was a +3holyburst of maiming until i crafted a bow).

** i did not include a bloodstone in any of the comparisons. It's effect would be relatively marginal, but would tend to favor the silver bow and push the cross-over points back a couple.

[maddmatt70]

[LEFT]

i totally agree.. the w/e is an awesome bow. What makes it even better is that you can get them for a reasonable price on the AH.

Also, i compared some the total damage output of some bows vs increasing damage modifiers (things like favored enermy, str bonus, bard songs would factor into here). I looked at a range of damage modifiers from 0 to 120 (not that it is possible to get that high.. maybe somewhere in the +40ish range).

Weapons with higher crit ranges will eventually overtake the total damage output of lower crit ranged weapons. This seems to be one of the points that causes people to disagree as one bow might be better for a dex build, while another is better for a strength build. I assumed that anything above a 1 would hit (which probably isnt too far from the truth for most builds which concentrate on ranging). I also assumed that improved crit ranged was taken as a feat.

-The lightning strike is the best DPS bow by a fair margin, assuming a 2&#37; proc rate. It is not overtake by the silver bow until a damage modifier of +106 (which is clearly impossible... currently)
-The triple positive is also better than the silver by a fair margin, though the silver catches up if you can get to +47 damage bonuse.
-The mineral II was slightly better than the triple positive, however, if you accounted for the loss of the acid damage (for agains the fiend), than the trip pos with silver arrows is better.
-A +4 holyburst of pure good is marginally better than the silver bow up until a damage bonus of +23 (not sure where you would find a bow like that. The best i could find was a +3holyburst of maiming until i crafted a bow).

** i did not include a bloodstone in any of the comparisons. It's effect would be relatively marginal, but would tend to favor the silver bow and push the cross-over points back a couple.

First did you do your own calculations? Second, by damage bonus do you mean average damage non crit or do you mean the + damage?

I did the lightning bow calculations vs. the silver bow on my ranged character with max bards songs, madstone rage, rage pot, and ram's might against a favored enemy and I found they did nearly the same damage before lightning strike was added in. I have an elven fighter with 4 ranger levels so my favored enemy is +3 damage with enhancement vs. evil outsiders. I have a 30 strength before any buffs or spells, ranger bow damage 2 and greater weapon specialization ranged. I figure that I do a little less damage then an elven ranger with about a 26 strength and max favored enemy damage when going against a favored enemy because ram's strength adds 3 more damage then my ranged character and the above build adds +2 damage (ram's might only adds +1 besides strength with just 4 ranger levels ). I have 3 madstone boots and drink plenty of rage pots, keep ram's strength up all the time, and in the end game raids always run with a bard so I thought this was actually an accurate analysis.

I also included the bloodstone which adds 0.9 damage on an average hit per crit range so with the silver bow actually adds 72 damage over a 20 shot spread which is 3.6 extra damage per hit which is not trivial damage - conversely the greensteel bows add 1.8 extra damage per hit with a bloodstone.

[nbhs275]

First did you do your own calculations? Second, by damage bonus do you mean average damage non crit or do you mean the + damage?

I did the lightning bow calculations vs. the silver bow on my ranged character with max bards songs, madstone rage, rage pot, and ram's might against a favored enemy and I found they did nearly the same damage before lightning strike was added in. I have an elven fighter with 4 ranger levels so my favored enemy is +3 damage with enhancement vs. evil outsiders. I have a 30 strength before any buffs or spells, ranger bow damage 2 and greater weapon specialization ranged. I figure that I do a little less damage then an elven ranger with about a 26 strength and max favored enemy damage when going against a favored enemy because ram's strength adds 3 more damage then my ranged character and the above build adds +2 damage (ram's might only adds +1 besides strength with just 4 ranger levels ). I have 3 madstone boots and drink plenty of rage pots, keep ram's strength up all the time, and in the end game raids always run with a bard so I thought this was actually an accurate analysis.

I also included the bloodstone which adds 0.9 damage on an average hit per crit range so with the silver bow actually adds 72 damage over a 20 shot spread which is 3.6 extra damage per hit which is not trivial damage - conversely the greensteel bows add 1.8 extra damage per hit with a bloodstone.

Exactly. Lightning II Is currently the best overall DPS bow. Even when lightning doesnt strike, its equivelent, or > any other.

Though i would like to see how the Abbot bow compares.

[nbhs275]

http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p170/Borrigain/bow.jpg


Just for fun, on a 2/14 ranger barb // elf

2d12 base
3 wpn
20 str
2 FE
8 bard songs
___________

35-57(17-20/x3)

Equals about 66.075 for an average shot

Respectable.

[maddmatt70]

Exactly. Lightning II Is currently the best overall DPS bow. Even when lightning doesnt strike, its equivelent, or > any other.

Though i would like to see how the Abbot bow compares.

Point wasn't that lightning strike is better but that the other greensteel bows are about the same as the silver bow if you build your archer correctly in todays game. Correctly built archers should have at least a 26 strength before enhancements, but really should have close to a 30 strength if you are a ranger or barbarian before rage and a 34 strength if you are a mostly fighter build..

[sickle423]

christ you guys do way to **** much math!

[Milolyen]

I'd rather have extra 10 STR too even if I miss on 4.


You are kidding right? You honestly thing that an extra 5 dmg and 15 on crits is worth missing an extra 15&#37; of the time?

Using my Mineral 2 bow, only missing on a 1.

rolling a 2, 3 and 4 = 126 dmg with
Average base dmg of 35 + 3.5 (acid) + 3.5 (pure good) (I actually think my average base dmg is higher than 35 so this is low balled)

extra 5 dmg and 15 on crit but only hitting on a 5 or higher = 100 dmg (14*5 + 2*15)

There are times where my 34 dex does not only miss on a 1 and see times where a roll of 5 is not enough to hit. If I had dropped the 4 lvl ups into str instead of dex I would trade +2 to hit,ac and reflex save in return for +2 to dmg/+4 dmg on crits. Sorry I do not find it worth it. I am not saying you should gimp str but don't gimp your to hit because "fully buffed" you will hit everything on anything other than a 1 because you are rarely "fully buffed". Then also this is where DPS matters. If we go and figure useing a W/P till they are dead or Weak/E till they are auto crit then you are going to have an even less + to hit because I don't see many +5 W/P or Weak/E and these are on hit effects and does not matter what the base dmg is as long as you are getting through DR which my 34 dex ranger has no trouble doing. In end game on none red/purple named ... DPS is no longer king, Stat dmg and insta kill is and for this you have to hit quick and connect when you do.


christ you guys do way to **** much math!

Most in here are computer geeks ... we like math :)

Milolyen

[Zenako]

christ you guys do way to **** much math!

This is nothing...you should see the table talk at my PnP game....Chem Engineers, Math Majors, Scientists, Computer Geeks...

We all loved the nuances of Chivarly and Sorcery Game back in the late 70's early 80's....make D&D rules look ahem....simple.

[Vengenance]

Point wasn't that lightning strike is better but that the other greensteel bows are about the same as the silver bow if you build your archer correctly in todays game. Correctly built archers should have at least a 26 strength before enhancements, but really should have close to a 30 strength if you are a ranger or barbarian before rage and a 34 strength if you are a mostly fighter build..


I have no idea how you are calculating your numbers because my numbers come no where close to yours. I used JJFlanigans tool for calculating DPS.

Using the following assumptions I compared a Tier III positive bow to the Silver Bow:

34 Strength
32 Dex
4 Favored Enemies
Max bard buffs (+8 Damage)
Blood Stone
Elven Longbow Enhancements (+2 hit/+2 damage)

So at an AC up to 39 AC the Tier III positive does approximately 8 more damage per second (65 DPS vs 57 DPS) over the Silverbow. At an AC of 42 the gap widens to 10 DPS (65 DPS VS 55 DPS). At an AC of 51 the gap is 12 DPS in favor of the Tier III positive. At in fortification (100% Fort) and the gap widens even more in favor of the Tier III positive by 19 DPS (52 DPS vs 33 DPS) at 39 AC. At 42 AC the gap widens to 22 DPS (52 vs 30). Bottom line, the Tier III positive is better than the Silverbow no mattter how you run the numbers.

I also tried to model the Tier III electric bow (Assuming Positive/Air/Air-Positive). Assuming a proc rate of 2%, over the course of 50 swings it will Proc once for 600 damage or 12 damage per swing. Using the same base stats above the Tier II lightening does do more damage than the Tier III positive. At 42 AC the Lightening Bow does 7 more damage per swing. At 51 AC the damage gap goes down to 5 damage per swing in favor of the lightening 2. If you throw in fortification the differnce between them goes down to 3 damage per swing.

If the proc rate drops to 1.5% the bows do essentially the same DPS.

[maddmatt70]

I have no idea how you are calculating your numbers because my numbers come no where close to yours. I used JJFlanigans tool for calculating DPS.

Using the following assumptions I compared a Tier III positive bow to the Silver Bow:

34 Strength
32 Dex
4 Favored Enemies
Max bard buffs (+8 Damage)
Blood Stone
Elven Longbow Enhancements (+2 hit/+2 damage)

So at an AC up to 39 AC the Tier III positive does approximately 8 more damage per second (65 DPS vs 57 DPS) over the Silverbow. At an AC of 42 the gap widens to 10 DPS (65 DPS VS 55 DPS). At an AC of 51 the gap is 12 DPS in favor of the Tier III positive. At in fortification (100&#37; Fort) and the gap widens even more in favor of the Tier III positive by 19 DPS (52 DPS vs 33 DPS) at 39 AC. At 42 AC the gap widens to 22 DPS (52 vs 30). Bottom line, the Tier III positive is better than the Silverbow no mattter how you run the numbers.

I also tried to model the Tier III electric bow (Assuming Positive/Air/Air-Positive). Assuming a proc rate of 2%, over the course of 50 swings it will Proc once for 600 damage or 12 damage per swing. Using the same base stats above the Tier II lightening does do more damage than the Tier III positive. At 42 AC the Lightening Bow does 7 more damage per swing. At 51 AC the damage gap goes down to 5 damage per swing in favor of the lightening 2. If you throw in fortification the differnce between them goes down to 3 damage per swing.

If the proc rate drops to 1.5% the bows do essentially the same DPS.

Answer don't use a tool do the calculation yourself.. I trust a tool not at all. I would not even bother breaking it down for ac - just assume an archer never misses because they don't miss... Also you failed to include ram's might and other modifiers. Favored enemy damage enhancements.. Rage spell if you want to add that to your calculation its up to you..

[Lonewolfe]

The only bow i absolutely refuse to leave the shed with is my +3 weaken/enfeeble longbow. After a few volleys, makes the fighters think they are gods and makes any beholder impotent(if only those silly tanks knew how much i was helpin them out). Aside from that im thouroughly jealous about someone owning a +4 holyburst/pg longbow. Have a longsword and the numbers are up there, if i could just find it in a longbow in that flavor id be content for a while.

Slink



why be jealous...odds are you can go to the vendor and buy a +1 holy of pg for pennys and use the house d arrows to make a +3 bow. So if that extra +1 is squat. And that isn't to mention that the +1 bows are cheeeeeeeeap. Unless he pulled the bow from a chest, I bet he paid many times it's face value......for +1 more.

[Lonewolfe]

Million DEX matters A LOT when it comes to AC point, especially when you consider end-game raids.
And it doesn't require a 'no strength', unless 22~24STR means 'no strength' :D


My 32 dex 24 str ranger hits everything.....that's why million dex. Even with 4 arrows of many shot & it's penalty, I hit everything. I miss on 1's. That does change a little when fighting elite raid bosses with high AC, but just think how much I'd miss with less dex. It's all about hitting, I don't care how much dmg you do if you only hit me 1 in 3 arrows. Since you will be dead long before me.

[Lonewolfe]

well when your hitting on a 2 with a 26 dex...i much rather have the extra 10 str..



but on elite and higher ac baddies, you wont hit on 26 dex. Plus your later arrows of many shots will miss because of the penalties when you try to hit high ac baddies. I'm not saying go no str, but 24 is plenty to get the job done as I have been doing on my ranger for 2 years.

[Tarackian]

ah, against non-evil your using the greensteel, not the PG.


Aranticus just stated as to why pure good > holy.

[maddmatt70]

but on elite and higher ac baddies, you wont hit on 26 dex. Plus your later arrows of many shots will miss because of the penalties when you try to hit high ac baddies. I'm not saying go no str, but 24 is plenty to get the job done as I have been doing on my ranger for 2 years.

Yeah you are hitting with a 26 dex on elite sorry to break it to you.. A dwarven twf with 32 str and power attack on all the time hits all the time and never misses - I know because that is my character, Norg in a nutshell. I don't even have to take off power attack when I go on raids against elite orthons. A 26 dex elven bow ranger has a higher to hit then my dwarven twf fighter so do you really think that ranger is going to miss..

[nbhs275]

Yeah you are hitting with a 26 dex on elite sorry to break it to you.. A dwarven twf with 32 str and power attack on all the time hits all the time and never misses - I know because that is my character, Norg in a nutshell. I don't even have to take off power attack when I go on raids against elite orthons. A 26 dex elven bow ranger has a higher to hit then my dwarven twf fighter so do you really think that ranger is going to miss..

yea, consider this. My WF ranger has a 32 standing str, and a -8/+8 PA, yet the lowest my AB ever really gets is 28, which hits most/all mobs on a 2. And really any time im facing something with much more then that its usually A) a FE and B) ill have other boosts.

And for rangers, guess what! 16 bab +8dex +4 gh +3 arrow = 31 on the first arrow. And the bonus climbs just like melee combat. It DOES NOT take more then a 26 dex to effectively use bows at endgame. Its alot like that stupid build with 100 AC. Sure hes not going to be hit other then on a 20, but the same can be said about the guy with a 70 AC...

[Lonewolfe]

I'm not talking about the trash....I"m talking about high ac red named and boss'. I am also talking about multi shot. I didn't say you could never hit, I said you won't always hit. I would go on to explain further, but i see your comments on the forums all the time. It's like many other self proclaimed ubers. Agree with me or your wrong. It's black or white. So you build your toons with all the str and as little dex as you like....and I'll do the same.

[maddmatt70]

I'm not talking about the trash....I"m talking about high ac red named and boss'. I am also talking about multi shot. I didn't say you could never hit, I said you won't always hit. I would go on to explain further, but i see your comments on the forums all the time. It's like many other self proclaimed ubers. Agree with me or your wrong. It's black or white. So you build your toons with all the str and as little dex as you like....and I'll do the same.

It is just numbers nothing uber about numbers. A 26 dex elven ranger will not miss on red named elite orthons..

[nbhs275]

I'm not talking about the trash....I"m talking about high ac red named and boss'. I am also talking about multi shot. I didn't say you could never hit, I said you won't always hit. I would go on to explain further, but i see your comments on the forums all the time. It's like many other self proclaimed ubers. Agree with me or your wrong. It's black or white. So you build your toons with all the str and as little dex as you like....and I'll do the same.

Well when the facts are facts, and im using just facts...well yea im right and its pretty dumb to not agree. If you know for a fact that on normal, harry's AC is less then 35, why would you want a 40 to hit?

If you know that at a 65 AC your not going to get hit except on a 20, why push to get a 70?

DnD isnt about getting the very highest in any one zone, its about getting the best balance in multiple zones. And for a ranger using a bow, its a balance between Dex, Str, and weapon.

[Vengenance]

Answer don't use a tool do the calculation yourself.. I trust a tool not at all. I would not even bother breaking it down for ac - just assume an archer never misses because they don't miss... Also you failed to include ram's might and other modifiers. Favored enemy damage enhancements.. Rage spell if you want to add that to your calculation its up to you..

I trust the tool more than I trust your numbers. BTW, my ranger is elven with a 28 STR, 30 w/rams, 32 w/rage, and 34/madstone; she also has a 32 dex. I have both a Silverbow and a Tier III positive and I can tell you w/o a doubt the Tier III positive does more damage. I also have the elven longbow enhnacements (+2 Hit/+2 damage) and used them in my calculations. What you don't seem to understand is that all of the pluses to damage gets added to both bows in the comparisons. Also, what you clearly haven't factored in is that the pit fiend has moderate fort, which works further works against the silver bow. While the Tier III positive still gets all of the good burst and good blast damage the Silverbow get nothing.

As far as I'm concerned this discussion is over, your numbers are wrong. The best bow is the Lightening II followed closely by the Tier III positive.

[nbhs275]

I trust the tool more than I trust your numbers. BTW, my ranger is elven with a 28 STR, 30 w/rams, 32 w/rage, and 34/madstone; she also has a 32 dex. I have both a Silverbow and a Tier III positive and I can tell you w/o a doubt the Tier III positive does more damage. I also have the elven longbow enhnacements (+2 Hit/+2 damage) and used them in my calculations. What you don't seem to understand is that all of the pluses to damage gets added to both bows in the comparisons. Also, what you clearly haven't factored in is that the pit fiend has moderate fort, which works further works against the silver bow. While the Tier III positive still gets all of the good burst and good blast damage the Silverbow get nothing.

As far as I'm concerned this discussion is over, your numbers are wrong. The best bow is the Lightening II followed closely by the Tier III positive.

Im not sure what it is your argueing. We all have basically said that the silver bow isnt stacking up even against the posx3. But, as it is, the lightning II is still far superior to both.

[Vengenance]

I'm not arguing with you in the least, it is maddmatt that thinks the Silverbow is equivalent to the Tier III positive bow, which it clearly isn't. I also agree that the Lightening II bow is the best bow period for pure DPS. A Tier III positive comes in a close second against evil aligned creatures, and w/p and w/e are nice alternatives against non-named mobs.

[Naso24]

I wonder how my bow would stack up...+3 holy shortbow of greater evil outsider bane. It seems to do better than silver against Harry, but not by a huge margin. Since I use silver arrows, the comparison is:

1d6 + 7 + (all other STR, FE, etc) + holy + 4d6 GEO Bane, crits on 19-20

vs

1d10 + 2 + (all other STR, FE, etc) + holy, crits on 17-20

I have a feeling that a greensteel lightning would be the best, but cannot justify the 24 large needed at this time. Maybe after I make a few melee weapons first.

Is there a consolidate chart or list anywhere on the Tier 3 proc rates?

[Inspire]

Ooze2 Longbow, Because Its Absolutly Freakin' Hilarious.

Frost/Acid Burst/+2 Strength(DR/Damage... Icy Blast Or +4Ac... Or W/e Tickles Your Fancy), -5Ac(Stacks With Destruction, Total -9Ac), 7% Chance To Summon A Wild Ooze(Unsplitable)

Manyshot + 7% Proc. + Improved Precise Shot + 10 Mobs = Hilarious!:D

[Pwesiela]

Ooze2 Longbow, Because Its Absolutly Freakin' Hilarious.

Frost/Acid Burst/+2 Strength(DR/Damage... Icy Blast Or +4Ac... Or W/e Tickles Your Fancy), -5Ac(Stacks With Destruction, Total -9Ac), 7% Chance To Summon A Wild Ooze(Unsplitable)

Manyshot + 7% Proc. + Improved Precise Shot + 10 Mobs = Hilarious!:D

YEAH! *arm pump*

Hey, I like my silverbow, but I also like earthgrabing something and autocriting the hp out of it:D.

[gfunk]

Ooze2 Longbow, Because Its Absolutly Freakin' Hilarious.

Frost/Acid Burst/+2 Strength(DR/Damage... Icy Blast Or +4Ac... Or W/e Tickles Your Fancy), -5Ac(Stacks With Destruction, Total -9Ac), 7% Chance To Summon A Wild Ooze(Unsplitable)

Manyshot + 7% Proc. + Improved Precise Shot + 10 Mobs = Hilarious!:D

wow... never even thought of that... you just helped me pick my next bow