Alignment/effects thread.

[baddax]

The idea of this thread is to discuss alignment effects from spells and weapons.
Here are 2 of my issues, feal free to add your own or discuss these.

1)Why do I get a neg. Level from Axiomatic/Anarchic when I have a UMD high enough to use a True Chaos/True Law weapon?
Why does my UMD allow me to bypass the requirements for True Law / Pure Good, but not allow me to avoid the neg. level from Axiomatic?
I undersdtand that axiomatic allows characters of differing alignments to use other weapons but why should i be penalized after devoting significant skill points into UMD?

2)Why do I take damage from searing light which is good type dmg, if i am correct and my alignment is good?
On my fighter my pure good effect does no damage to players so why would a spell that deals the same type of damage?

[MrCow]

Why do I take damage from searing light which is good type dmg, if i am correct and my alignment is good?

Searing Light is well named in that it does "Light" Damage, not good damage. If it did do "Good" damage then I think it would be named something along the lines of Searing Good. :p

[baddax]

Searing Light is well named in that it does "Light" Damage, not good damage. If it did do "Good" damage then I think it would be named something along the lines of Searing Good. :p

Theres one in every crowd!

[Turial]

The idea of this thread is to discuss alignment effects from spells and weapons.
Here are 2 of my issues, feal free to add your own or discuss these.

1)Why do I get a neg. Level from Axiomatic/Anarchic when I have a UMD high enough to use a True Chaos/True Law weapon?
Why does my UMD allow me to bypass the requirements for True Law / Pure Good, but not allow me to avoid the neg. level from Axiomatic?
I undersdtand that axiomatic allows characters of differing alignments to use other weapons but why should i be penalized after devoting significant skill points into UMD?

2)Why do I take damage from searing light which is good type dmg, if i am correct and my alignment is good?
On my fighter my pure good effect does no damage to players so why would a spell that deals the same type of damage?

1) The benafit of true law, true chaos, and pure good is their ability to damage all things not of Lawful, Chaotic, or good alignments while axiomatic and anarchic simply deal more damage against creatures on the opposite of the alignment spectrum. You can trick the true/pure weapons into thinking you are of that alignment but the trickery doesnt work on the more powerful axiomatic and anarchic weapons which is why UMD doesnt let you avoid it...that and because its not worded that way as an effect.

2) Searing light is coded as light damage rather then good. If it was good damage then (I think) it would only be able to be cast by casters with the appropriate alignment like chaos hammer and orders wrath.

[baddax]

The benafit of true law, true chaos, and pure good is their ability to damage all things not of Lawful, Chaotic, or good alignments while axiomatic and anarchic simply deal more damage against creatures on the opposite of the alignment spectrum. You can trick the true/pure weapons into thinking you are of that alignment but the trickery doesnt work on the more powerful axiomatic and anarchic weapons which is why UMD doesnt let you avoid it...that and because its not worded that way as an effect.


So why not give it a higher DC to be able to bypass? ie if DC for true law weapon x is 22 then make it 30 for axiomatic?

Also if searing light is Light damage then it should be classified as fire/heat damage and blockable by fire resist IMO. Dont believe me take a magnifying glass, put it in the sun and stick your hand under it. If thats not Heat then i dunno what is. Leave it over a combustable material and you fill get a Fire.

[Impaqt]

The benafit of true law, true chaos, and pure good is their ability to damage all things not of Lawful, Chaotic, or good alignments while axiomatic and anarchic simply deal more damage against creatures on the opposite of the alignment spectrum. You can trick the true/pure weapons into thinking you are of that alignment but the trickery doesnt work on the more powerful axiomatic and anarchic weapons which is why UMD doesnt let you avoid it...that and because its not worded that way as an effect.


So why not give it a higher DC to be able to bypass? ie if DC for true law weapon x is 22 then make it 30 for axiomatic?

Also if searing light is Light damage then it should be classified as fire/heat damage and blockable by fire resist IMO. Dont believe me take a magnifying glass, put it in the sun and stick your hand under it. If thats not Heat then i dunno what is. Leave it over a combustable material and you fill get a Fire.

There is no UMD Check for Axiomatic, Anarctic, Holy, or Unholy. they simply do more damage against the opposite allignment.

[baddax]

I guess i should state my case clearly.

I believe that there should be a UMD check to bypass the neg level from weapons such as Holy,Axiomatic, Anarchic etc.
My reason for this is that a) It work on pure good, True Law and such and that if a person spends a considerable amount of skill points into UMD then I see no reason they cannot bypass the neg. level restriction also. just make it a higher check. My point is that if I spend 16 or so skill points into UMD (not including buffs) then why should my pally not have a benifit over a pallly who spent 0 points into UMD using anarchic weapons? I understand we can both use the weapon and it does more damage than a a True Chaos weapon; but we Both recieve a negative level. I feal that if i devote a significant amount of skill into a particular area then i should have an advantage over someone who devotes no skill points to it.

[bobbryan2]

There is no UMD Check for Axiomatic, Anarctic, Holy, or Unholy. they simply do more damage against the opposite allignment.

Ultimately irrelevant.

UMD allows a PC to pretend to be a certain alignment. To use a true law weapon, you're effectively tricking the item into believing you're lawful.

From an internal consistency standpoint.. axiomatic should not behave differently than true law. Just because true law denies a non-lawful from using it, and axiomatic gives a negative level to chaotic users doesn't mean that the two effects are fundamentally different.

UMD should be used to trick items into believing that you're the appropriate alignment, race, or ability score.

Truth be told... UMD should also be used for INT and WIS runes... But one thing at a time I suppose.

[Jay203]

UMD: Use Magic Device, simply allows you to use the device, it does not in anyway let you avoid any bad effects from the item. If you try to bypass a restriction on a cursed item to equip it, you can't simply just say "but i can bypass the restriction to equip it, why should i suffer the consequences?!" and then try to wiggle your way out of the curse >_>
In other words, UMD is a skill that allows a character to bring forth the magic within a magical item as if he/she is naturally able to use the device the way it's designed.

now if you go and say that UMD should let you avoid innate damages from an item, same can be argued that UMD can be used to avoid damage from True Law/Chaos, Pure good, Holy, Axiomatic, Anarchic weapons when it's used on the UMD toon

[bobbryan2]

UMD: Use Magic Device, simply allows you to use the device, it does not in anyway let you avoid any bad effects from the item. If you try to bypass a restriction on a cursed item to equip it, you can't simply just say "but i can bypass the restriction to equip it, why should i suffer the consequences?!" and then try to wiggle your way out of the curse >_>
In other words, UMD is a skill that allows a character to bring forth the magic within a magical item as if he/she is naturally able to use the device the way it's designed.

now if you go and say that UMD should let you avoid innate damages from an item, same can be argued that UMD can be used to avoid damage from True Law/Chaos, Pure good, Holy, Axiomatic, Anarchic weapons when it's used on the UMD toon

Actually.... from the 'rules':

Emulate an Alignment
Some magic items have positive or negative effects based on the user’s alignment. Use Magic Device lets you use these items as if you were of an alignment of your choice. You can emulate only one alignment at a time.

[gamblerjoe]

Searing light is not incandescent light (like sunlight or a lightbulb.) It is magic light. A ray shoots from your fingertip dealing light damage to your target. Not fire damage, not good damage, not adorable bunny rabbit damage, not vandamage, light damage. Energy types are just descriptors anyway. Afterall, acid is matter, not energy, and cold is just the absence of heat. We pretty much need to accept the way they balance the game, even if we dont think they did a good job.

As for the umd thing, you can read the rules for using umd to emulate class/race/alignment in a Players Handbook. The main factor is that this ability is only used to equip an otherwise uneuippable item. part of the reason it works this way is because the ability to emulate c/r/a with umd is an origional part of the game. there is gear in pnp that functions differently for different races. true chaos etc. weapons came out later, and they just decided to use the same rule for them.

The way i rationalize it, for the sake of suspending disbelief, is this. the ability to emulate a c/r/a is a way of looking at an item u cant make function, and figuring it out. you are not 'tricking' the item, because the item is not casting any detection spells on you. the anarchic weapon on the other hand is still going to give a lawful player a neg level because the effect doesnt make it harder to wield, holding it just gives u a tummy ache.

personally i think it would be perfectly acceptable if the rule-makers decided that a lawful umd toon could emulate a (oh, lets say) True Neutral alignment so as not to take the neg-lvl from that anarchic sword. it would be different from my current understanding of the rules, but thats why they came out with the rules compendium. a book full of erratas is necessary when u have new books with new rules constantly being published. too many rules lead to contradictions.

This matter intigues me a great deal, im going to see what the sage has to say about all this.

[BlackSteel]

be happy that you can UMD as many items at a time that you want. Right now you can pretend you're 3 different classes, both chaotic and lawful, and still cast a scroll. If UMD behaved like it should, then you'd only be able to pick one of those RR items to wear at a time, unless they happen to be the same race.

[baddax]

UMD: Use Magic Device, simply allows you to use the device, it does not in anyway let you avoid any bad effects from the item. If you try to bypass a restriction on a cursed item to equip it, you can't simply just say "but i can bypass the restriction to equip it, why should i suffer the consequences?!" and then try to wiggle your way out of the curse >_>
In other words, UMD is a skill that allows a character to bring forth the magic within a magical item as if he/she is naturally able to use the device the way it's designed.

now if you go and say that UMD should let you avoid innate damages from an item, same can be argued that UMD can be used to avoid damage from True Law/Chaos, Pure good, Holy, Axiomatic, Anarchic weapons when it's used on the UMD toon

1) If you emulate an alignment then how is the "curse" applied? To say that UMD should be able to bypass Damage and such would be a distortion of the rules and thus should not be alowed IMO.

[baddax]

Actually.... from the 'rules':

Emulate an Alignment
Some magic items have positive or negative effects based on the user’s alignment. Use Magic Device lets you use these items as if you were of an alignment of your choice. You can emulate only one alignment at a time.

I was unaware of this rule but it does make sense. I guess it depends on which you prefer. It definitely would make weapon/item selection more dificult for umd characters.

[baddax]

Searing light is not incandescent light (like sunlight or a lightbulb.) It is magic light. A ray shoots from your fingertip dealing light damage to your target. Not fire damage, not good damage, not adorable bunny rabbit damage, not vandamage, light damage. Energy types are just descriptors anyway. Afterall, acid is matter, not energy, and cold is just the absence of heat. We pretty much need to accept the way they balance the game, even if we dont think they did a good job.


Ok, so according to you logic fire ie from fireball is magic fire and not subject to fire resist? Also how does this magic light differ from real light? The fact that it is searing aludes to the fact that it is heat dmg and should be subject to heat resist.
Also what about such spells as Deific Vengance? which does deal Good DMG to Good characters.

[Jay203]

1) If you emulate an alignment then how is the "curse" applied? To say that UMD should be able to bypass Damage and such would be a distortion of the rules and thus should not be alowed IMO.

the curse **** was for the sake of making up an imaginary item that's was created based on ill-will toward specific individuals or race

in the case of axiomatic and anarchic, i guess it's more like the "vibe" that the weapon is giving your character. your character can trick the item all he/she wants, but the base alignment remains the same. a holy paladin with high UMD will still feel bad using an evil weapon of mass destruction that was created for purpose of evil and evil only o_O

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I want touch AC and to hit roles for ray attacks.

FOR THE BAD GUYS!
I can just see it implemented for players only. Knowing the trends in DDO. :(

[baddax]

agreed.