Abused use of disintegrate?

[omnific]

I admit I may be a bit intolerant in the potential imbalance in any changes the game has made from the original rules. Disintegrate is one of them that has been bothering me a lot recently.
When you're hit by a disintegrate ray, you're allowed a save. According to the original rules:
"A creature or object that makes a successful Fortitude save is partially affected, taking only 5d6 points of damage."
However, in DDO, you take 5d6 less damage from the total damage. In this case, when a 15HD beholder hits you with a disintegrate, you take 30d6 damage on a failed save, and 25d6 damage on a success. No real difference, yes? My paladin has +18 fortitude on level 10, which is quite awesome to tell you the truth. It can probably pk one or two beholders with a luck not so bad in a PnP game. However, he just can't stand against two attacks in the game, whether he makes the saves or not.
That's not a big problem, I mean, a beholder from the PnP game is CR13, but if you want its attacks to be fearsome, you can raise its CR to 20. I'm totally fine with that. A CR20 monster should be like that. But if you use disintegrate in this wrong way, and still insist that the beholder's CR is like 14, then it just doesn't make sense. Such a beholder is not for a level 10 or level 14 group to challenge, they're for level 20. Heck, do you ever put six CR20 monsters in a level 10 dungeon?
I see many mistakes made in this game due to misinterpret of the rules. I'm glad that web and glitterdust are never subject to spell resistance, not like what they were two years ago. That's very good. But I believe there're far more things that the designers need to take care to get rid of the imbalance in the game.
Comments are welcome. Thanks for reading.

[toughguyjoe]

Well, i'm not quite sure about all of that. I have used my own disentigrate on a caster, and it does have the printed effect. "5d6 damage when a creature passes the save" however, i have fought countless beholders on my WF tank, and disentigrate and TK are the only things that work from them against a Metal man. i have been disentigrated many times, and passed. I believe i only took a small amount of damage, however 25d6 probably looks very different when i have 551 max hp unraged and you have much less being level 10. what you might be seeing is that you are failing the disentigrates and taking full damage from bad rolling. i know the DCs are higher than those in pen and paper. I have played PNP dnd for quite some time, and its true, beholders are a feared enemy, but when you power up the players with enhancement lines and near unlimiting spending power, the monsters get an "unfair" bump the same way we do. it tries to force a balance, though we're obviously still working on that. who knows though, maybe my high hp toons have just always been soaking up those disentigrates. But i THINK that you do still take only 5d6 on a fail.

[omnific]

Thanks for the reply. I believe I read from the spell that disintegrate deals 5d6 less damage or I read the text saying "you succeeded on the save and you take bla bla d6 damage". Well the truth is, it happens a lot of times that my character, with 200 hp, although not 500 but that's still a lot of hp right? He falls with a successful save against a disintegrate from full hp. That's really ****ing me off again and again.

[wrinyn]

Well, i'm not quite sure about all of that. I have used my own disentigrate on a caster, and it does have the printed effect. "5d6 damage when a creature passes the save" however, i have fought countless beholders on my WF tank, and disentigrate and TK are the only things that work from them against a Metal man. i have been disentigrated many times, and passed. I believe i only took a small amount of damage, however 25d6 probably looks very different when i have 551 max hp unraged and you have much less being level 10. what you might be seeing is that you are failing the disentigrates and taking full damage from bad rolling. i know the DCs are higher than those in pen and paper. I have played PNP dnd for quite some time, and its true, beholders are a feared enemy, but when you power up the players with enhancement lines and near unlimiting spending power, the monsters get an "unfair" bump the same way we do. it tries to force a balance, though we're obviously still working on that. who knows though, maybe my high hp toons have just always been soaking up those disentigrates. But i THINK that you do still take only 5d6 on a fail.

I play a drow wiz (capped) and I used to get hit with disintegrate quite frequently. It was always a save or die effect with me. However, if I make the save I only take a miniscule amount of damage. So I believe that the 5d6 stands......Unless that has changed in the past 3 weeks.....

[Turial]

I admit I may be a bit intolerant in the potential imbalance in any changes the game has made from the original rules. Disintegrate is one of them that has been bothering me a lot recently.
When you're hit by a disintegrate ray, you're allowed a save. According to the original rules:
"A creature or object that makes a successful Fortitude save is partially affected, taking only 5d6 points of damage."
However, in DDO, you take 5d6 less damage from the total damage. In this case, when a 15HD beholder hits you with a disintegrate, you take 30d6 damage on a failed save, and 25d6 damage on a success. No real difference, yes? .....

Though its been a while since a beholder landed a disintegrate on, thank you optics, what you are describing would mean that only fighters, paladins, and barbs would have a decent shot at living through a disintegrate (failure or no) excepting out any odd high hp builds.

I like beholder heavy content and have to say I haven't seen that happen a whole lot and I run with the squishies (at 250 hp I am typically the high hp guy lol). '

Any particular quest you see this happen in? or any particular named beholder?

[toughguyjoe]

yeah 200 hp is alright for your level, though its not a ton. If you are dying from passing a disentigrate thats really harsh. the beholders in this game are definatly a force to be reckoned with. just wait until you meet a named one :D

[omnific]

This appeared when I was doing Von3. Six beholders in the cave. I die once or twice on each of them. I'll double check next time I do it in case it's a bad recall.

[MrCow]

Success on a save for disintegration is doing what it is supposed to, 5d6 damage. I've recently seen this with disintegration from beholders, Ghola-Fan, and the Aspect of Cunning in Offering of Blood.

By the way, most of the time when someone with good fortitude saves dies from disintegration, negative levels lowering your saves are often part of the blame from enervations.

[Beherit_Baphomar]

Thanks for reading.


My pleasure.

[Angelus_dead]

However, in DDO, you take 5d6 less damage from the total damage. In this case, when a 15HD beholder hits you with a disintegrate, you take 30d6 damage on a failed save, and 25d6 damage on a success. No real difference, yes?
You are wrong. On a successful save a DDO beholder's disintegrate inflicts 5d6 damage, which comes to approximately 25. (Keep in mind that DDO spells average 5 on a d6)

I suggest you go into Invaders, take a right from the start, and stand in front of the stationary beholder for a few minutes to see what happens. If the creature has feats such as Maximize Spell-like Ability then it could double the damage on both failed and successful saves. I'm not aware of a DDO beholder with that feat, but there could be one.

[GeneralDiomedes]

This appeared when I was doing Von3. Six beholders in the cave. I die once or twice on each of them. I'll double check next time I do it in case it's a bad recall.

Were you being hit with more than one ray at a time? Otherwise, I have never observed your results and I've been hit by quite a few.

[Guildmaster_Kadish]

Success on a save for disintegration is doing what it is supposed to, 5d6 damage.

Yep, disintegration is, and always has (as far as I'm aware) worked correctly, doing 5d6 points of damage on a successful save.

[omnific]

Thanks for your replies, guys. I apologize for posting with disappointment before doing sufficient investigation. I might have failed to pay attention to something other than that disintegrate. I'll do the experiment to see what happens.

[Turial]

Thanks for your replies, guys. I apologize for posting with disappointment before doing sufficient investigation. I might have failed to pay attention to something other than that disintegrate. I'll do the experiment to see what happens.

Only way to find out some times is to ask and test test test again. MrCow can tell you all about the fun of testing.

[frugal_gourmet]

It is certainly more powerful as an attack spell in DDO than in pen-and-paper, however. In PNP, distintegrate is a fairly mediocre damage spells past level 14 or so (though it remains a great utility spell) because it requires a successful ranged touch attack and spell penetration roll in addition to allowing a saving throw. Very many high-level D&D creatures are able to beat one or more of those with a reasonable success rate.

That it is unaffected by spell pentration and there are no ranged touch attacks makes it way more useful in combat in DDO. After awhile, most mages have the knack for lining up their attacks pretty well.

[MrCow]

MrCow can tell you all about the fun of testing.

I have a very twisted definition of fun at times.


After awhile, most mages have the knack for lining up their attacks pretty well.

A side-tracking, but... can you imagine what beholders would be like if they could do an Improved Precise Shot on their eyebeams. :eek:

[frugal_gourmet]

A side-tracking, but... can you imagine what beholders would be like if they could do an Improved Precise Shot on their eyebeams. :eek:

Heh. No. :) Although for all I know, they might have it now. Usually when I see a beholder I am too busy soiling my elven briefs to pay much attention to the details.

[Jadeare]

If you are coming at a beholder from the front you are almost certainly going to cop an enervate. You will then almost certainly fail your disintergrate save. LvL 10 Paladins of von 3 beware.

[MrCow]

If you are coming at a beholder from the front you are almost certainly going to cop an enervate. You will then almost certainly fail your disintergrate save.

If we are going to go on the topic of beholders and where to approach them, then I'll bring up the Beholder Physiology: Eyebeam (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=151041) thread. :p

[Missing_Minds]

If you are coming at a beholder from the front you are almost certainly going to cop an enervate. You will then almost certainly fail your disintergrate save. LvL 10 Paladins of von 3 beware.

*chuckles* I'm going to have to remember that one.

[Cendaer]

If we are going to go on the topic of beholders and where to approach them, then I'll bring up the Beholder Physiology: Eyebeam (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=151041) thread. :p

That thread has been indespensible ever since you posted it.

Thank you Mr. Cow.

[EightyFour]

Dude, the reason that the CR's are low and the hp and other such are high is because of the casters man. I guess it's the idea that somehow CR is tied in with saving throws, so they drop the CR's a bit so caster's can get spells that require saves off on them. It was already stated by the developers awhile ago that was the reason you have higher hp, higher damage mob's with a low CR.

I don't know if that reason makes sense, but that was the reason given.

[MrCow]

Dude, the reason that the CR's are low and the hp and other such are high is because of the casters man. I guess it's the idea that somehow CR is tied in with saving throws, so they drop the CR's a bit so caster's can get spells that require saves off on them.

A monster's base saves is based off of Hit Dice, not Challenge Rating. At least a beholder has Hit Dice lower than their CR (on normal).

As far as HP, a beholder has inflated HP compared to monsters of its Hit Dice range, probably to make sure they were feared, as the iconic things they are.

[GlassCannon]

Heck, do you ever put six CR20 monsters in a level 10 dungeon?

Yes. Jungle of Khyber is an excellent example of this(8+ CR20's in a level 9 dungeon).

Always.

[Kromize]

Hmm...not sure. But I know, that on my caster, when if I use dis, I either do around 100, or 500...(;

[Jadeare]

Hmm...not sure. But I know, that on my caster, when if I use dis, I either do around 100, or 500...(;

Empower, Maximize, Sup Pot?

[Silverjade]

Last time i ran with beholders i was only taking 5d6 on a failed save.
To me its more notice able when i do fail after iv been playing my sor a lot and id say that on a failed save from a beholder you would take about 180-200ish or more on a save about 40-60 damage.

[EightyFour]

A monster's base saves is based off of Hit Dice, not Challenge Rating. At least a beholder has Hit Dice lower than their CR (on normal).

As far as HP, a beholder has inflated HP compared to monsters of its Hit Dice range, probably to make sure they were feared, as the iconic things they are.

K, I'll give it to you, it's been awhile, and I can't remember exactly what was said, pretty sure it was CR, as that's what people were complaining about. I'm not going to argue any PnP points, because this is DDO, things have to work differently so that they work. Where are the Hit Dice shown on the mob's, just wondering?

[MrCow]

Where are the Hit Dice shown on the mob's, just wondering?

They are shown in a few very special places where only the insane go to look. If this message is too cryptic, then the short answer is "it isn't displayed". :p

[VirieSquichie]

Though its been a while since a beholder landed a disintegrate on, thank you optics, what you are describing would mean that only fighters, paladins, and barbs would have a decent shot at living through a disintegrate (failure or no) excepting out any odd high hp builds.

I like beholder heavy content and have to say I haven't seen that happen a whole lot and I run with the squishies (at 250 hp I am typically the high hp guy lol). '

Any particular quest you see this happen in? or any particular named beholder?

Never have gotten those optics... :(

My sorc is around 200 HP, don't remember the exact total. He can survive a disintegrate if it's the only thing that hits him. Usually there's also the enervate, cause wounds etc. coming along with it.

My favorite (not!) beholder combat...right as we triggered the thing a lag spike happened. 5 seconds or so later, when we were all done hovering mid-step or midair, the whole party was dead. Beholder apparently had no lag during that 5 seconds. Bah.

[EightyFour]

They are shown in a few very special places where only the insane go to look. If this message is too cryptic, then the short answer is "it isn't displayed". :p

Hey MrCow, I thought you were warned about special places were you not? :eek:



J/K :D

[godmode]

What really irks me is the fact that most of these spells are suppose to require a ranged touch attack to hit.
However, instead we are suppose to physically dodge these spells. In melee range its near impossible to dodge a spell and with the server to client latentcy its especially difficult.

They really need to rebalance alot of these spells. A character that has high ac and is not dependent on Armor for thier AC should be able to not be hit by these ranged touch attack spells. I mean that's the whole thing with a monk, they have great AC that casters would have a hard time using ranged touch attack spells. I know this fact would make pure monks alot more popular. And perhaps casters wouldnt rule as much as they do if they actually had to roll to hit the mob.

Personally i think they either implement ranged touch attacks or lower the damage/saves of these spells


Touch Attacks
Some attacks disregard armor, including shields and natural armor. In these cases, the attacker makes a touch attack roll (either ranged or melee). When you are the target of a touch attack, your AC doesn’t include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. All other modifiers, such as your size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) apply normally.


Honestly my 240 hp rogue is getting tired of eating 60-70 point searing lights back to back. When there is a good chance that the caster may not even be able to land a ranged touch attack him. ~ instant damage no save

It's bad enough that caster mobs have infinite spells, extremely high hitpoints, and thier spells can never be interruppted.

So I say make caster players have to worry about thier To-hit, and give the low save, low hitpoint class's a chance to REALLY dodge these spells.