Stat damage to names

[Varr]

Ive got some ideas, but would like some clarity...........orange, red, purple..............here is an example.

Ill take my wiz into both the shroud and vision raids and will hit both bosses with level 7 waves of exhaustion and level 5 waves of fatigue. Once I clip past the 36 sr's..............they both register on the bosses. So are the bosses really -8 to str and dex (which would be tremendous for the melee and clericing thru out) or is this a debuffing that is just for show. Obvously you can not wound or enfeeble red and purple (?) named, so can you caster stat damage them?

Ive run with a nice pack of pros and I get the mumbleing silence when asking that comes with a..........**** I think I know but dont really, response from some learned players.

I also try a little mana burn on the orthons in vision when I have mana to burn, thinking the -6 dex/str to be a huge debuff and willing to mana burn till I roll a 16+20 to land them past the 36 sr.

[MrCow]

You can cause the following stat penalty effects to monsters:


Ray of Enfeeblement (1d6 + 3 STR penalty, due to being capped at caster level 5)
Fatigue (-2 STR, -2 DEX)
Exhaustion (-6 STR, -6 DEX, overwrites the fatigue effect even though both will display)
Symbol of Weakness (3d6 STR penalty)
Weapon Effect: Strength Sapping (-6 STR, -6 DEX, stacks with the rest)


So when the heavens are aligned you can do a maximum STR Penalty of 39 and maximum DEX penalty of 12 if the monster in question can be hit by all the listed effects.

[Oran_Lathor]

Symbol of Pain also works on red/purple names. Though it's not a stat debuff, I believe it does have a -4 to hit and saves involved. So it synergizes

[Varr]

Of course the exhaustion overwrites the fatigue.........wouldnt want a level 5 spell to be any good would we..........lol. Excellent info though and will deff help me to justify the level 7 fatigues still. To clarify even more.........it looks like in a vision raid........with an early fatigue and a round or so of beat down with strenght sapping and maladroit, the fiend can be forced thru the rest of the fight at -12 str -12 dex (and the sapping/mal -1 per hit caps at -6 per stat.) I can see problems with the others, the symbols reset casting time and the fact that he is immune to enfeeble with his spell mantle.................Im suprized there has not been a bit of 'demand' for this stat debuffing. -6 to hit -6 damage -6 ac..........seems like a good alteration to his capabilities for a big long fight boss.

[Ghoste]

You can cause the following stat penalty effects to monsters:


Ray of Enfeeblement (1d6 + 3 STR penalty, due to being capped at caster level 5)
Fatigue (-2 STR, -2 DEX)
Exhaustion (-6 STR, -6 DEX, overwrites the fatigue effect even though both will display)
Symbol of Weakness (3d6 STR penalty)
Weapon Effect: Strength Sapping (-6 STR, -6 DEX, stacks with the rest)


So when the heavens are aligned you can do a maximum STR Penalty of 39 and maximum DEX penalty of 12 if the monster in question can be hit by all the listed effects.
Has this been tested to verify that the stat damage listed under examination is actually taking effect? Or to say it another way, does a raid boss with 39 str dmg actually do less damage, or is it just for show?

[Blazer]

Of course the exhaustion overwrites the fatigue.........wouldnt want a level 5 spell to be any good would we..........lol. Excellent info though and will deff help me to justify the level 7 fatigues still. To clarify even more.........it looks like in a vision raid........with an early fatigue and a round or so of beat down with strenght sapping and maladroit, the fiend can be forced thru the rest of the fight at -12 str -12 dex (and the sapping/mal -1 per hit caps at -6 per stat.) With the symbols reset casting time and the fact that he is immune to enfeeble with his spell mantle.................Im suprized there has not been a bit of 'demand' for this stat debuffing. -6 to hit -6 damage -6 ac..........seems like a good alteration to his capabilities for a big long fight boss.

Not the one that I bolded and underlined. Maladroit is similar to wounding/weakening, meaning red/purple names are immune.

[Varr]

That is the cruxt of my quesitoning ghoste.............If this works and actually does work.......not just show up on the buff list like both fatigue and exhastion do currently, why would every raiding of the hound, shroud, vision, (ive even been using in reaver for fun) insist on it for non sorcs. Not saying I promote spell and play style demands.......but you know, when something really works, and works well.....it becomes adapted into the tactics and an implied necessity. Not so with stat debuffing critters with 50-100 k hit points. The elite runs of this esp would benifit from this type of debuffing if it actually.....really...verified'ably....works.

[Varr]

You can see my interest in this topic.......hehe, I was assuming that mrcow's -6 dex listing under str sapping was maladroit........what is it that he is talking about then? Str sapping is just str I had thought.........what is the -6 dex equivalant if nto maladroit.

[Thrudh]

Crushing despair also works on the red-names (at least it shows up in the debuff list)

[Angelus_dead]

Weapon Effect: Strength Sapping (-6 STR, -6 DEX, stacks with the rest)
Oh did stacks? Did you report that bug?

[MrCow]

Has this been tested to verify that the stat damage listed under examination is actually taking effect?

I have tested reduced damage from the Warforged Titan with Ray of Enfeeblement and Symbol of Weakness and Queen Lailat. The reduced damage helps a lot if you get hit with their attacks that hit multiple times (Titan Blender, Queen's 6 Khopesh strike).


I was assuming that mrcow's -6 dex listing under str sapping was maladroit........what is it that he is talking about then? Str sapping is just str I had thought.........what is the -6 dex equivalant if nto maladroit.

Strength Sapping is a weapon prefix (+4 modifier) that on-hit will produce exhaustion-like effects (-6 STR, -6 DEX, slowed movement speed) on a failed DC 15 fortitude save.

[Kylin11]

Enervate seems to work vs red names that I have tested so far in low to lower mid level stuff if you want to count negative levels as a stat damage. It will not show up in examine, but if used enough times they do end up dying from it with no other damage done(sometimes it takes a lot of them though). I haven't conclusively tested hit or save rates yet however.

Also, the description in the compendium says symbol of weakness is str damage not penalty, is that incorrect? If it is correct, wouldn't it stack with itself unlike a penalty? I know damage stacks against players. Same for chill touch if you wanted to use it(and it is damage not penalty, which I have not conclusively tested). Chill touch may even have the benefit of not being subject to sr since it has a damage component, but I am not at home to check right now.

Is ray of enfeeblement's description wrong? It says a cap of +5 penalty, not level caster level 5.

Also, unless you were going for str/dex debuffs only, there is also touch of idiocy(1d6 wis/int/cha penalty) that I think might work against red names.

[Guildmaster_Kadish]

Enervate seems to work vs red names that I have tested so far in low to lower mid level stuff if you want to count negative levels as a stat drain. It will not show up in examine, but if used enough times they do end up dying from it with no other damage done(sometimes it takes a lot of them though). I haven't conclusively tested hit or save rates yet however.

Enervate does not work on red or purple names. It does, however, work on orange names.

[Blazer]

Enervate seems to work vs red names that I have tested so far in low to lower mid level stuff if you want to count negative levels as a stat drain. It will not show up in examine, but if used enough times they do end up dying from it with no other damage done(sometimes it takes a lot of them though). I haven't conclusively tested hit or save rates yet however.

You sure about this? Enervate is not supposed to work on red names, especially since it has no save.

EDIT: Kadish beat me to it.

[MrCow]

Enervate seems to work vs red names that I have tested so far

I've seen orange-named things take negative levels, but never a red or purple named critter. Are you sure about this? ;)


Also, the description in the compendium says symbol of weakness is str damage not penalty, is that incorrect?

I can test this again if needed, but do keep in mind that not all descriptions in DDO are accurate (such as Symbol of Pain which doesn't bestow a -4 to ability checks, but does bestow a -4 to saves).


Is ray of enfeeblement's description wrong? It says a cap of +5 penalty, not level caster level 5.

It lasts a maximum of 5 minutes (unextended) and deals a maximum of 4-9 STR penalty. Consult your unfriendly neightborhood hobgoblins in Irestone Inlet for more information if you need.

Likely, the issue stems from being capped like false life and stoneskin, but when it really shouldn't have such a cap on it.


there is also touch of idiocy(1d6 wis/int/cha penalty) that I think might work against red names.

Red named things are currently immune to becoming idiotic, regardless of how they may act. :D

[Kylin11]

I've seen orange-named things take negative levels, but never a red or purple named critter. Are you sure about this? ;)



I can test this again if needed, but do keep in mind that not all descriptions in DDO are accurate (such as Symbol of Pain which doesn't bestow a -4 to ability checks, but does bestow a -4 to saves).

I'll try it some more tonight against something harder. Only tried 2 things so far since it was late and one was the named minotaur outside the tavern in 3BC. He died in 4-6 enervates or so. The other I don't remember, it was quite late when I tried. I'll go to redwillow elite tonight maybe and see if I can split some of those nameds out there for more testing. Again, it didn't show up in examine. He just died after getting shot the required number of times and I wasn't able to check hit rates or saves, because he couldn't really save anyway, or I would die getting mauled (no ac, low hp, only level 11). It doesn't help that I have no way to verify how level drained he is to know when it might be safe.

On symbol: yeah, I know some aren't accurate, I was just asking to be sure. I was considering getting it if it was damage to try, but if it is just a penalty I'll probably take it out of consideration. Might have to consider symbol of pain if it does bestow -saves instead of ability checks though.

Thanks for the info on the others.

Edit: May or may not be relevant, but I think some purple names may appear red to me, and sometimes flash purple briefly if I die. I saw this on the giant at the end of TS. He shows up red to me, but flashes purple name sometimes. Which is he supposed to be? I have seen a grand total of 1 orange name up to level 11 over my past 3 characters, and it was an ogre leader or whatever it is in the first part of greymoon that you get the key from. Let me know if this influences anything, since I wouldn't know because it has always been like this and don't want it messing up my tests.

[Ghoste]

[QUOTE=MrCow;1817713]I have tested reduced damage from the Warforged Titan with Ray of Enfeeblement and Symbol of Weakness and Queen Lailat. The reduced damage helps a lot if you get hit with their attacks that hit multiple times (Titan Blender, Queen's 6 Khopesh strike).[QUOTE]

Wonderful! What would we do without all your painstaking tests?

[MrCow]

Wonderful! What would we do without all your painstaking tests?

Painstaking? Nah, that one was found out of wanting to mock said raid bosses. It was quite simple to test Queen Lailat with a Titanic Docent and my Chaotic Neutrality means no damage from the True Chaos or Unholy Burst (and resist sonic to negate the sonic strikes). Being able to stand next to her and watch her hit me for no damage over and over was just one of those joyful little moments. :p

The testing of the Warforged Titan came out of sheer survival when I was attempting to solo it. Knocking that blender damage down is lifesaving at times.

[Varr]

Strength Sapping is a weapon prefix (+4 modifier) that on-hit will produce exhaustion-like effects (-6 STR, -6 DEX, slowed movement speed) on a failed DC 15 fortitude save.

Varr gets hit with the noob bat.........lol, someone doesnt play enough melee apparently. Thanks for all the info thus far............after said red name rolls a 1 and gets strenght sapped........how long with that single effect remain? Is it like curse and wear off quickly, making the weapon effect a mild help, or is it combat long? Im guessing for this effect to be usefull, one of the tanks will need to dedicate a weapon and attack all combat long to keep this effect going.

[MrCow]

after said red name rolls a 1 and gets strenght sapped........how long with that single effect remain?

It should be a 1 minute effect, but I am not completely sure. All I know is I have been able to stack this with Exhaustion to make Groktin the Beholder go into auto-crit mode. :p

[Ghoste]

Painstaking? Nah, that one was found out of wanting to mock said raid bosses. It was quite simple to test Queen Lailat with a Titanic Docent and my Chaotic Neutrality means no damage from the True Chaos or Unholy Burst (and resist sonic to negate the sonic strikes). Being able to stand next to her and watch her hit me for no damage over and over was just one of those joyful little moments. :p

The testing of the Warforged Titan came out of sheer survival when I was attempting to solo it. Knocking that blender damage down is lifesaving at times.
Oooo, I'm curious as to what methods you were using to knock himdown and fire laser at same time. Have pondered that one myself. Or was that pre trip immunity?

[Varr]

Very nice........I bet beholders hate hearing your coming to their lair...........

So...... waves of fatigue.......-6/-6
Trick a melee into a strength sapper for -6/-6
Get a casting that lands of symbol of weakness.........-10.5 str

Fight pretty much straight thru against a fiend with - 22 str/-12 dex.

-11 pts of damage per hit and -11 to hit for the baddie, and -6 to ac.


This seems pretty no brainer ish. Ive ignored (obviously) strenght sapping weapons.......are there ranged versions?

[Merkinsal]

Very nice........I bet beholders hate hearing your coming to their lair...........



Feeblemind works great against beholders.
"Causes the enemy's Intelligence and Charisma levels each to drop to 1, giving it roughly the intelligence of a lizard. A successful Will save negates this effect."

I picked this up specifically for beholders and it works great. They are unable to do anything, except try to bite you lol. Harder to land in the Underground but much easier elsewhere. I have lately been landing it easlily enough on elite in Rainbow, on the orange named beholder at the optional chest. FoD is a fortitude save and Feeblemind is a will save. I think beholder's will saves are a little lower.

[MrCow]

sapping weapons.......are there ranged versions?

Yes, Strength Sapping comes on any weapon type.


Feeblemind works great against beholders.

Feeblemind has a save.

Waves of Exhaustion has no save and produces no sound. Couple that with a Ray of Enfeeblement (no save either, but does produce sound) and you have a guaranteed 1-2 punch to stop a beholder from firing eyebeams.

[MrCow]

Oooo, I'm curious as to what methods you were using to knock himdown and fire laser at same time. Have pondered that one myself. Or was that pre trip immunity?

This was just after module 7, so including the tricky knockdowns. However, I don't want to spoil the puzzle that is soloing the Titan, but I will provide you with a clue that you have to take the pillars down from the top in the rafters so you have enough time to fall down onto the laser controls.

[Kylin11]

I was able to enervation kill the red named stuff in redwillow elite, so red names do not appear to have a special immunity.

Also, I hung around and tested the other stuff on the first troll in there. By the end, he was barely able to hit me on a 20 where at the start almost every hit connected. I killed him in one shot with a 7th level scorching ray wand his hp was so low after 7 enervations. The non-named trolls around him required a max-empower 11th level to kill in one shot as a max 11th left them with a little left. Damage he did per hit was unaffected of course. Saves still inconclusive, but I imagine they were lowered too.

It does not show up in examine.

[Blazer]

I was able to enervation kill the red named stuff in redwillow elite, so red names do not appear to have a special immunity.

Also, I hung around and tested the other stuff on the first troll in there. By the end, he was barely able to hit me on a 20 where at the start almost every hit connected. I killed him in one shot with a 7th level scorching ray wand his hp was so low after 7 enervations. Damage he did was unaffected of course. Saves still inconclusive, but I imagine they were lowered too.

It does not show up in examine.

I think you're going to have to check again, sir. The majority of the named stuff in there (like the troll you enervated several times) is in fact, an orange name, not a red name. I believe the only red name there is the end boss giant, but I shall run it tonight to double check. Feel free to come with me if you are on Khyber, my chars are in my sig.

[Kylin11]

I think you're going to have to check again, sir. The majority of the named stuff in there (like the troll you enervated several times) is in fact, an orange name, not a red name. I believe the only red name there is the end boss giant, but I shall run it tonight to double check. Feel free to come with me if you are on Khyber, my chars are in my sig.

Someone finally told me that was supposed to be orange, but it looks REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY close to the boss red on my screen. I changed it to pink now, so that won't happen again. Going to look for a boss boss now.

[Kylin11]

The giant at the end did end up not very effected by enervate, if at all. The mystery of why I could enervate "red bosses" is now solved I guess, never to be a problem again, since the minibosses are pink now for extra differentiation.

Sorry for the red herring.

[Blazer]

The giant at the end did end up not very effected by enervate, if at all. The mystery of why I could enervate "red bosses" is now solved I guess, never to be a problem again, since the minibosses are pink now for extra differentiation.

Sorry for the red herring.

NP, glad to have gotten this cleared up. Would hate to see you in a group spamming the boss with enervate thinking you're helping, only to have the other party members asking you what the heck you were doing. :)

[Merkinsal]

.............If this works and actually does work.......not just show up on the buff list like both fatigue and exhastion do currently, why would every raiding of the hound, shroud, vision, (ive even been using in reaver for fun) insist on it for non sorcs. Not saying I promote spell and play style demands........

Actually, sorcs have been carrying this stuff for a long time. I mention this because I don't want inexperienced players to be under the impression they need a wiz, not a sorc, in their group. In fact, this thread you brought here started in the sorc forum.

[Varr]

Ah, I read the formus for entertainment almost every day, and have not seen this debuffing type of thread recently.........so I must have missed the sorc thread your talking about. Im also not suggesting sorcs be skipped over for wizards, but Im not sure I agree with you saying that sorcs have been carrying this stuff for a long time either.........unless your talking about scroll form? Most every thread I read about what are your level 6 spells, what are your level 7 spells............the primary spell Ive been talking about is waves of fatigue at level 7. Dont think a great % of the sorc population is carrying that as a loaded spell. Can see the waves of exahustion at level 5 I suppose due to the weakness of level 5 spells selection.

[Merkinsal]

Ah, I read the formus for entertainment almost every day, and have not seen this debuffing type of thread recently.........so I must have missed the sorc thread your talking about. Im also not suggesting sorcs be skipped over for wizards, but Im not sure I agree with you saying that sorcs have been carrying this stuff for a long time either.........unless your talking about scroll form? Most every thread I read about what are your level 6 spells, what are your level 7 spells............the primary spell Ive been talking about is waves of fatigue at level 7. Dont think a great % of the sorc population is carrying that as a loaded spell. Can see the waves of exahustion at level 5 I suppose due to the weakness of level 5 spells selection.

You have that a little backwards. Waves of Exhaustion is 7 for -6 dex and -6 str, fatigue is lvl 5 for -2 -2. And you are correct, not many sorcs carry the spell as level 7 although many sorcs speced for end game do. I carry the scrolls. I have to roll 14 with the Feats Spell Pen and Greater Spell Pen to hit in VoD. Although I have not seen that number myself in VoD I have seen it in Shroud and they apear to be the same. A caster with the spell loaded, with the Feats Spell Pen and Greater Spell Pen, and all three spell pen enhancements has to roll 11, if they carry that and many wizards or sorcs do not. Enhancements apply to spells and not scrolls and the three enhancements are the only difference in Spell Pen.

As for Symbol of Weakness, this is only a spell but has a fortutude save and would be hard to land on the VoD boss.

[Merkinsal]

P.S. I keep bringing this topic up because I want to help the party and know the game blah blah blah lol. More closer to home, many pugs this summer seem to be weaker than I am used to seeing. A little in the Shroud and the Underground, but mostly elsewhere in Vale and Gianthold. When pugs are plentiful and stacked with top geared characters, they don't need or care if someone is casting this stuff but when characters can only hit on an 18, things need to change lol. Of course with the trend the game is taking, harder bosses and mobs, this becomes more and more important to conserve cleric resourses and mitigage some of that expensive damage to armour I keep hearing about. Expensive repair bills, using three sets of armour a raid etc.

[VirieSquichie]

Painstaking? Nah, that one was found out of wanting to mock said raid bosses. It was quite simple to test Queen Lailat with a Titanic Docent and my Chaotic Neutrality means no damage from the True Chaos or Unholy Burst (and resist sonic to negate the sonic strikes). Being able to stand next to her and watch her hit me for no damage over and over was just one of those joyful little moments. :p

The testing of the Warforged Titan came out of sheer survival when I was attempting to solo it. Knocking that blender damage down is lifesaving at times.

Ouch, Lailat gets Punk'd by MrCow...

Keep up the good work!