What are the advantages and disadvantages of dex and str based monks?

[arcanehealer]

The question is just like the title says.
What are the advantages and disadvantages of dex based monks?
What are the advantages and disadvantages of Str based monks?

Thanks for the replies
-Spikey

[Aeneas]

Haven't leveled a monk past level 4, but the basic game mechanics would seem to indicate that dex builds gain AC and reflex save points, str builds do more damage and don't require the weapon finesse feat to hit effectively. Both have their own stance to improve them, fire i believe for strength and wind for dex.

[Rameses]

The question is just like the title says.
What are the advantages and disadvantages of dex based monks?
What are the advantages and disadvantages of Str based monks?

Thanks for the replies
-Spikey
Best advice anyone will give you:

Build your monk balanced: fight like a Rogue, kill like a Fighter.

[Angelus_dead]

What are the advantages and disadvantages of dex based monks?
Plus: More AC, racial bonuses can help you hit
Future plus: Higher attack speed means faster vorpaling and wounding.
Minus: less DPS, -1 feat, can't use staff (except from Titan), bad Stunning Blow and Trip DC


What are the advantages and disadvantages of Str based monks?
Plus: Fire stance gives you nearly limitless Ki.
Minus: might not qualify for GTWF.

General rule is that a monk should not be low in either stat.

[negative]

As said, a monk shouldn't skimp on either Str or Dex at character creation, so when I say one or the other, it basically means which stat the level up points are going into.

So, I've got a "Str" monk up to level 12 now. The advantage is higher DPS. And you retain the ability to use wind stance when vorpalling and the like, since a -1 penalty to-hit from switching from fire to air is minimal with those weapon types. Your saves are still fine (even reflex, moreso if you use the monkey enhancement line). And you can still get a respectable AC and HP for off-tanking and DPSing. Using fire stance gets you more Ki faster, but you take a bigger hit if you want to use Water Stance to help with landing Stunning Fist. You have the option of using Stunning Blow and getting a decent DC with a weighted item.

On the other hand, a finesse monk will have better, probably tankable AC, and better saves. HP can probably be about the same I imagine except for any penalty from using Air stance. You will be more surviable at the cost of some DPS. Using air means you will always attack faster, and switching to water doesn't hurt as much if you're looking to land a stunning fist. Stunning Blow is probably a bad option though.

Honestly, they probably end up more similar than different.

[Angelus_dead]

So, I've got a "Str" monk up to level 12 now. The advantage is higher DPS. And you retain the ability to use wind stance when vorpalling and the like, since a -1 penalty to-hit from switching from fire to air is minimal with those weapon types.
It requires 16 dex to qualify for wind III, which is beyond most strength monks. Wind IV will come later at 18 dex.

[arcanehealer]

What should i take for my stats for a dex based monk and a str based monk (Str, Dex, Etc.)?
What feats should i take and at what lvls for each type of monk?

Thanks for the answers so far and the future answers
-spikey

[Angelus_dead]

What should i take for my stats for a dex based monk and a str based monk (Str, Dex, Etc.)?
There are more than just two kinds of monks; your ability scores depend on what you want to do (and also on if you have 28 or 32 point buy)

As a general rule though, a monk wants 16 or 17 in his attacking stat. (That's before racial modifiers, which would boost halflings or elves to 18-19 dex).

A str monk will also want 15 dex if he wants TWF fighting (which means he'll still need to get a +2 tome by level 15). A dex monk should probably have 13 str so he can at least get Power Attack.

Your wisdom and consitution should both probably be about 14, although you can change it depending on your desired focus.

[Rameses]

There are more than just two kinds of monks; your ability scores depend on what you want to do (and also on if you have 28 or 32 point buy)

As a general rule though, a monk wants 16 or 17 in his attacking stat. (That's before racial modifiers, which would boost halflings or elves to 18-19 dex).

A str monk will also want 15 dex if he wants TWF fighting (which means he'll still need to get a +2 tome by level 15). A dex monk should probably have 13 str so he can at least get Power Attack.

Your wisdom and consitution should both probably be about 14, although you can change it depending on your desired focus.

I disagree here. Sure that is a general rule for any other class in the game. But I firmly believe that a Monk should have a starting 16 Wisdom minimum.

[Angelus_dead]

I disagree here. Sure that is a general rule for any other class in the game. But I firmly believe that a Monk should have a starting 16 Wisdom minimum.
What benefit would a 16 wis give a monk over a 14, that's worth reducing his dex or str by the same amount?

+1 AC? You'd get the same from dex.
+1 DC? Who cares, it's only +1, and the majority of your attacks have no DC.

A 16 wisdom is about the highest you can justify for a monk. Going beyond that is wasteful; 16 is more like the maximum, not the min.

[Sue_Dark]

Another oft overlooked negative to playing any dex based character, not just monk... hold, trip, command... all cause the loss of your dex bonus to AC.

[Angelus_dead]

Another oft overlooked negative to playing any dex based character, not just monk... hold, trip, command... all cause the loss of your dex bonus to AC.
Command is hardly a risk for monks, who don't usually fail will saves.
Trip and Command do not remove dex bonus.
Hold eliminates all your AC, and lets any monster strike you 95% of the time.

[Rameses]

Ha ha, what? You think that other classes like Wizard and Barbarian should have 14 wis? Even for a paladin or ranger that's a bit much.

Now that's just a terrible assumption. but if people built thier characters balanced instead of min/maxed maybe the game would be a little "interesting."
But A_D I know how you roll. You like to shake things up and I can respect that. But when it comes to character building I'll take the path less trodden it's always more gratifying in the long run.

[Sue_Dark]

Command is hardly a risk for monks, who don't usually fail will saves.
Trip and Command do not remove dex bonus.
Hold eliminates all your AC, and lets any monster strike you 95% of the time.

Then, sir, explain how my 45 AC rogue can be untouched until he fails a trip and then is beaten to a pulp?

[Angelus_dead]

But A_D I know how you roll. You like to shake things up and I can respect that. But when it comes to character building I'll take the path less trodden it's always more gratifying in the long run.
If you want to be "less trodden" that's fine, you can be a bit different from anyone else.
But if that's what you're doing, it's inaccurate to say "all monks should have at least 16 wisdom".

Wisdom above 14 means a 2 point reduction to either your str, dex, or con. One of those other abilities would probably be more useful to raise.

As a general rule, MAD classes like monks should start with abilities up to 16, while SAD classes like sorcerers should start with an 18.

[bandyman1]

Then, sir, explain how my 45 AC rogue can be untouched until he fails a trip and then is beaten to a pulp?

You take a -4 to AC when tripped.

Although...I don't see how a 45 AC rogue is " untouched ", unless they're around level 8 or so.

[Brandiwyne]

<snip> +1 DC? Who cares, it's only +1, and the majority of your attacks have no DC. <snip>

If you plan on making use of stunning fist or quivering palm, then that +1 can make a difference.

How many casters or tactical fighters would discount +1 DC?

If one were interested in creating a ocean stance-based monk, then 16 wisdom is about where they need to begin.

[Rameses]

If you want to be "less trodden" that's fine, you can be a bit different from anyone else.
But if that's what you're doing, it's inaccurate to say "all monks should have at least 16 wisdom".

Wisdom above 14 means a 2 point reduction to either your str, dex, or con. One of those other abilities would probably be more useful to raise.

As a general rule, MAD classes like monks should start with abilities up to 16, while SAD classes like sorcerers should start with an 18.


ok and it's is generally this kind of thinking that's leading to all gimp TWF or staff fighting Monks.
You don't have to have a 30+ stat to be able to hit any mob in the game.
I have a standing 27 Dex on my Wisdom based Water Monk. And yes I only run with Way of Water III except raid and quest bosses.
And I've yet run across a mob that I can't hit reliably after a on strike of unbalancing strike.
And yet I've found very few mobs (Elite Devils and Orthons from the shroud) that can resist my 30 DC stunning fist. Which only adds to my characters DPS.

The logic used that you "Have" to have a 16+ in a combat stat is min/max logic and for a well balanced and great monk you can't think like that.

I am, Rameses!

[negative]

Throw this out there, my *Strength* Monk (Halfling) started with a 14 Str at creation. It's not an problem nor is it noticable. Granted, I get the racial +1 to-hit, but a difference to +1 to-hit is nothing. It much less significant than +1 DC to your combat feats.

I also started with a 16 wisdom. I'm not going to say it's required, but it's really nice. I'd recommend it for any monk that can get it. I do feel that anything lower than a 14 would hurt your average monk though.

Honestly, for a 32-pt build, you can get 2 stats to 16 and two to 14 before racial modifiers. If you've got a 16 in your to-hit stat (str or dex respectively), that more or less leaves a choice of a 16 con or a 16 wisdom. I'd take the wisdom over the 16 HP.

[Angelus_dead]

How many casters or tactical fighters would discount +1 DC?
Spellcasters have only one ability score contributing to the roll of whether their spells work. They have noplace else to put it. Also, most casters who care about a high spell DC have no interest in making a melee contribution.

Tactical Fighters have only one ability score contributing to the rolls of whether their special melee attacks work. First, strength applies to the attack roll, and secondly strength applies to the saving throw.

But Monks have TWO ability scores contributing to their special attacks. First, strength (or dex) for the attack roll, and then wisdom for the saving throw. +1 DC isn't worthless, but it's also not supremely important. The points it takes to get your wisdom from 14 to 16 could raise your lower abilities by +4 total.

[Angelus_dead]

And yet I've found very few mobs (Elite Devils and Orthons from the shroud) that can resist my 30 DC stunning fist. Which only adds to my characters DPS.
Do you see how you're contradicting yourself?

You say that hardly anything can resist your stunning fist. Therefore if your DC was one lower, monsters would still barely resist it.


The logic used that you "Have" to have a 16+ in a combat stat is min/max logic and for a well balanced and great monk you can't think like that.
You're the one who said you needed 16+ in wisdom.

[Gunga]

A huge disadvantage of both Str and Dex based Monks is that they are both Monks.

[Detton]

Then, sir, explain how my 45 AC rogue can be untouched until he fails a trip and then is beaten to a pulp?

I'm a complete noob (don't let the founder tag fool you, i only played after beta for about a month, and I didn't do too well, so i'm essentially a pretty new player), but doesn't trip grant a -4 AC penalty to targets affected by it?

To the OP: Monks need a little bit of every stat pretty much. Well, most of them, anyway. Str, Dex, Con, and wisdom. Int can be low, but combat expertise is pretty handy and takes 13 int, and can lead to whirlwind attack (which looks great unarmed). Only charisma is a complete dump stat, really, and there are hybrid/multiclass builds that raise it somewhat for UMD... (usually a rogue hybrid)

This is why alot of people say that monks don't really get too great until you can pump a handful of tomes into a 32-point build. Without it/them you're going to have a weak point.

[winsom]

I recommend the following baseline for Monks:

STR 14, DEX 14, CON 12, INT 11, WIS 14, CHA 8 = 25 points

then add remaining points into CON and STR or DEX.

CON 12 or 13 is OK because monks can afford take multiple toughness feats for HP. Monks can turn on Ocean Stance when making Fort saves is very important. If you plan to use Wind Stance a lot, you will really want two toughness feats and the Orchard quest helm that grants Toughness and Heavy Fort.

INT 11 is good because it puts your monk within a tome +2 of getting Combat Expertise and Improved Trip, even if you decide not to use these right away. You might want them later. Improved Trip is effective for STR & WIS builds even without wielding a Vertigo weapon (much better with one). Combat Expertise is great for DEX & WIS builds to maintain your Armor Class advantage. Use an INT +1 tome right away so you get the extra skill points at each level up.

My monk/rogue did not do this and I regret it somewhat, although my character is doing fine at 12th with STR 16+8, DEX 14+6, CON 14+6, INT 8+2, WIS 16+14, CHA 8+2. I use +5 ability score items for STR, DEX, CON, WIS and +1 into CHA for UMD. Tomes +1 or +2, level ups into STR x2 and WIS x1 and Human Bonus into WIS. I am purposely utilizing the high WIS for Stunning Fist and a mean of Armor Class that some other monks would be getting from DEX & WIS. I'll probably have 33 or 34 WIS without greensteel items at level 16, but that comes at the cost of not as much attack bonus as some other monks and never gettng Combat Expertise & Improved Trip. At least the moderately high STR is still useful for the basic trip attack, and I carry a Vertigo weapon for better tripping when my tactic of Stunning is not working well.

[stabbert]

There are more than just two kinds of monks; your ability scores depend on what you want to do (and also on if you have 28 or 32 point buy)

As a general rule though, a monk wants 16 or 17 in his attacking stat. (That's before racial modifiers, which would boost halflings or elves to 18-19 dex).

A str monk will also want 15 dex if he wants TWF fighting (which means he'll still need to get a +2 tome by level 15). A dex monk should probably have 13 str so he can at least get Power Attack.

Your wisdom and consitution should both probably be about 14, although you can change it depending on your desired focus.

At level 8 you should be able to put 2 points into Dex from level ups, and not need a +2 tome unless you just want more oomph, or you
could put 1 point into dex and the rest in Str if you wanted to me a Str/Dex monk.

Level 16 LG Halfling

Str - 14 +4Level(18), +6 Item(24) = 24 (26 if +2 tome) (28 in Fire II)
Dex - 16 +2 Enh(18), +6 Item(24) = 24 (26 if +2 tome) (28 in Fire II)
Con - 14 +6 Item(20) = 20 (22 if +2 Favor tome)
Int - 8 (Not an AC build, dont worry about CE Req's.)
Wis - 16 +3 Enh(19), +6 Item(25) = 25 (27 if +2 tome) (30 in Water III)
Cha - 8 N/A

Spec into Tortoise enhancement.
Get Water III
Get Air II or III (ap allowing)
Get Fire II

Feats id go with (not in any specific order:

Dodge, TWF, ITWF, GTWF, Toughness, etc etc

Feedback?

-Stabbert


A thousand mile journey begins with a single step.

[ehcsztein]

STR 14, DEX 14, WIS 14,


This I think is the fundamental starting point for any monk build.

The remaining points to be determine by desired play style / desired enhancements / desired end game usefulness.

OR

use STR as a dump stat and splash rogue to compensate for potential dps :)

[Sue_Dark]

I'm a complete noob (don't let the founder tag fool you, i only played after beta for about a month, and I didn't do too well, so i'm essentially a pretty new player), but doesn't trip grant a -4 AC penalty to targets affected by it?



Dont let the Lack of a title fool you. If I'd decided to join the forums earlier, I too would have that founder thing.

You could very well be right, but I was hoping that the all knowing A_D would grace me with an answer. Because without his expansive and vast knowledge, none of us would have gotten beyond the starter quests.

[Rameses]

What benefit would a 16 wis give a monk over a 14, that's worth reducing his dex or str by the same amount?

+1 AC? You'd get the same from dex.
+1 DC? Who cares, it's only +1, and the majority of your attacks have no DC.

A 16 wisdom is about the highest you can justify for a monk. Going beyond that is wasteful; 16 is more like the maximum, not the min.

A_D a Wisdom base monk is extremely viable in endgame elite content: via stunning fist/quivering palm and unbalancing strike and sneak attack damage via Halfling enhancements and/or gear if not Halfling. You like many others put too much emphasis on Min/Max'in Str/Dex/Con that you can never comprehend what others like myself and Inspire have with Water Monks.
And Who cares about +1 DC? Really that's discrediting to even make such a statement.


Do you see how you're contradicting yourself?


You say that hardly anything can resist your stunning fist. Therefore if your DC was one lower, monsters would still barely resist it.
no but I see how you twist words to make your points. ;)


You're the one who said you needed 16+ in wisdom.

For a better playing experience I am of the opinion that I am right.
As you are of the opinion that you are right.
Now the only difference is I have a Wisdom Base/Water Monk (and yes I always run in eternal ocean stance) that can achieve a 30 str or dex easily depending on stance and situation; that has proven it's mettle in elite endgame content on Argonnessen.
And if I had to guess you have a Str or Dex based GTWF or Staff Monk that does "ok" but doesn't really standout at anything in any quest.

I am, Rameses!

[Angelus_dead]

no but I see how you twist words to make your points. ;)
Nothing in that post supports your earlier contention that 16 wisdom is the minimum acceptable for a monk. For a reminder, here that is:

But I firmly believe that a Monk should have a starting 16 Wisdom minimum.

The idea that it's viable for some monks to focus on ultra-high wisdom doesn't mean you are correct to claim that no monk can do well with less starting wisdom.

[feynman]

My stats (I call myself a strength-based monk):

base(unstanced)(best stance)
STR 16(27)(30)
DEX 16(26)(29)
CON 12(20)(22)
INT 8
WIS 16(26)(28)
CHA 8


FEATS: TWF, ITWF, GTWF, Power Attack, Cleave, Toughness x3

Frankly, the only dump stats you have are int and cha; I chose to drop CON a little because I play an elf (hit to CON) and because it is the easiest stat to make up a deficiency in (a toughness feat gives more HP than 2 con points). I play an elf because I don't think that monks can afford the hit to STR, given our already problematic relationship with DPS.

Dex builds can be successful, as long as you don't ignore strength the way you would if you were building any other class; monks don't get as many or as good of crits, so you need both a decent strength bonus and power attack do have DPS that your group won't laugh at before they kick you out. You also need weapon finesse, which takes away a feat; the halfling fix is to have a little more CON than me, giving you the same HP, 2 more AC, but less DPS by an amount that is rather complicated to express, but is quite noticeable.

[Rameses]

The idea that it's viable for some monks to focus on ultra-high wisdom doesn't mean you are correct to claim that no monk can do well with less starting wisdom.

The same twisted logic is used by you and many others telling people that they HAVE to start with a 16 in Str and Dex.

http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm76/Rameses_73/vwgroovn-1.gif

[feynman]

The same twisted logic is used by you and many others telling people that they HAVE to start with a 16 in Str and Dex.

http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm76/Rameses_73/vwgroovn-1.gif

I prefer 16 str, dex, and wis :P

[Gunga]

Uh...you're talking about monks, right?

[Angelus_dead]

The same twisted logic is used by you and many others telling people that they HAVE to start with a 16 in Str and Dex.
That is absolutely untrue. I never wrote that.

[Gunga]

The same twisted logic is used by you and many others telling people that they HAVE to start with a 16 in Str and Dex.


Are you really trying to argue a point about what someone on the forums says you HAVE to do? Especially when they never said it? And then on top of it you're arguing about stats for a monk?

[Rameses]

That is absolutely untrue. I never wrote that.


Are you really trying to argue a point about what someone on the forums says you HAVE to do? Especially when they never said it? And then on top of it you're arguing about stats for a monk?

Of course both of you are correct, A_D never actually said you have to start with 16 in STR/DEX. But as with anything posted in the forums, people will take what you write and say "well so and so said I have to have these."
So yes by stating this


There are more than just two kinds of monks; your ability scores depend on what you want to do (and also on if you have 28 or 32 point buy)
As a general rule though, a monk wants 16 or 17 in his attacking stat. (That's before racial modifiers, which would boost halflings or elves to 18-19 dex).
A str monk will also want 15 dex if he wants TWF fighting (which means he'll still need to get a +2 tome by level 15). A dex monk should probably have 13 str so he can at least get Power Attack.
Your wisdom and consitution should both probably be about 14, although you can change it depending on your desired focus.
Readers could very well read it as A_D is saying have to instead of general rule.
Which a general rule is generally only the opinion of the poster that says it.

And Gunga, I can't wait for your cleric to get up in levels I'd love to have a chance to change your mind about Monks.

I am, Rameses!

[icculus]

The question is just like the title says.
What are the advantages and disadvantages of dex based monks?
What are the advantages and disadvantages of Str based monks?

Thanks for the replies
-Spikey

Good info - worth keeping