State of the Paladin

[Dawnblade]

I don't know if there is a thread anywhere with this type of discussion going on already. I haven't seen any however, so I figured I would start one.

Paladins are my favorite class. I'm all for the loyalty, honor, knighthood and all that good stuff that goes with it. I find that in DDO, the class is lacking direction and effectiveness. Is it a healer, a tank, a damage dealer? Is it a combination of some? From what I can see, it's not close to anything. I'll discard the damage dealer definition because I think it's been stablished that you have to sacrifice pretty much all the other aspects of the class in order to do enough damage. At that point, you might as well play a barbarian or something. It's definitely not a crowd control class either.

How about healing? Lay on Hands heals an ok amount but the limited amount of per day uses makes it unreliable for anything other than emergencies. The paladin's strongest available spell point based heal - cure serious wounds - obtained at level 14th is obtained by clerics at level 5. And even cure serious wounds is not reliable for anything other than topping off in between fights.

Let's look at tanking. Intimidate is not a class skill. That considerably hinders the paladin's ability to tank. Divine Righteouness would help if it wasn't for the fact that as a paladin who would be tanking, you probably won't be doing enough damage to take the aggro back; at least not at any speed that would be efficient. It does have good AC, but not damage reduction ability.

I see the paladin concept as a jack of all trades, master of none type of deal. A character that shines when things go wrong. One that helps by off-tanking and/or off-healing. However, with the current set of abilities given, I don't feel the paladin class has enough tools to do any tanking (main or off-tanking) or healing (main or off-healing).

Granted, I'm still new to the game. I haven't gotten a paladin to level 16 yet. But looking up information, it doesn't look good. So I summon Borror0 and all the other paladin experts to shine a light on my ignorance or help me come up with a list of changes that would make the paladin class more efficient at something...anything :)

So point out what you think paladins should be and what changed would need to be made for the class do accomplish it's role.
I'll be editing this post probably to make more sense as we go since I'm at work right now and can't devote my full attention to this thread.

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Below this line I'll be posting some of the ideas that came out of this discussion.

Tanking Improvements:

-Diplomatic Taunt: Borror0 has suggested that the skill Diplomacy is given the ability to work as a taunt. The player would be able to select, in the same way the Resist Energgy spell, if the skill would be used to lose aggro or to gain aggro.

-Permanent Divine Righteousness: Turial suggested that this enhancement be made permanent and tiered into different levels of threat gaining based on AP invested. I suggested it could be make a toggle.

More to come....

[Borror0]

I'll discard the damage dealer definition because I think it's been stablished that you have to sacrifice pretty much all the other aspects of the class in order to do enough damage.

For reference, that shouldn't be the case. Nothnig in D&D leads to that.

If a god asked you to do quests for him he will most likely ask you to kill whatever gets in your way, right?


And even cure serious wounds is not reliable for anything other than topping off in between fights.

Agreed. However... except someone else to come and complain that his paladin can heal and blah, blah, blah... -_-


Let's look at tanking. Intimidate is not a class skill. That considerably hinders the paladin's ability to tank. Divine Righteouness would help if it wasn't for the fact that as a paladin who would be tanking, you probably won't be doing enough damage to take the aggro back; at least not at any speed that would be efficient. It does have good AC, but not damage reduction ability.

This is a big part of the issue I have about the whole "paladins are a defensive support class" that Eladrin said a while ago.

I can accept part of that, but there are a lot of things that need to be correct. First of all, as you pointed out, paladin lacks synergy in what he tries to acheive. He tries to tank via taking the aggro by DPS... but got lowest DPS in the game. Then, he also lack Intimidate or any similar taunt.

As I often repeated, the best way to fix this, to my eyes, would be to change the way Diplomacy currently works. You could make of Diplomacy a skill with two options. The first option would be the current de-aggroing form, so that anyone with points in Diplomacy would be able to continue using it the way it works. The second option would be how Intimidate currently works. It would help both paladins and monks, who are class who can/should tank... but lack the ability to draw aggro.

Then, the second part of the change would be to give Intimidate a debuffing part to. If a mob fail his check (or another higher DC check), he gets shakened lowering his to-hit and saves. That would reward those who put points into Intimidate rather than Diplomacy... and also avoid making Diplomacy clearly superior to Intimidate.

The other issue I have with Eladrin's tag, is that AC isn't that easy to obtain. Ask any casual gamer, he will tell you. Sure, someone who plays a lot can get +5 MFP, +5 MTS, Chattering Ring and Mineral II weapon... but those are pretty hard to get for someone not playing a lot or not in a raiding guild. That leads to gimpy paladin... a lot. Or, for those who know what they are doing, just completly makes it uninteresting to play a paladin because they would be stronger at any other class. So, unless Eladrin mean defensive in other means than AC, I will disagree with it.

The last issue I have, is that forcing a class into one and unique fighting style (S&B) isn't wise. You're not using the most out of the class. Personally, I think that a greataxe fighting paladin would be neat. Heck, even 4th Edition agrees with me in their definition of paladin. I would love to see more variance in the way to build a paladin. Some tank saving their friends, some zealous DPsers and those more geared to support.

The class is there, might as well take the most we can out of it.


So point out what you think paladins should be and what changed would need to be made for the class do accomplish it's role.

I have said it often: spells.

A few creative enhancements migth be nice, becuase there isn't anything awesome to spend your AP in. Heck, I know a lot of people that have said, back when ES and DS were introduced, "Well, I don't really like them but I have nothing else to spend my APs on." Clearly, implementing the paladin PrE would be a good start.. but then, good and useful spells all the way.

No more Lionheart, please!!

I can take out my list of spells if you want.

[elraido]

I agree with most of what Barror0 has said. The only thing is why my build, there are not enough AP for what I want to do with him. Like he said there is nothing great but they are a lot of things that are usefull towards my build. To get a lot of the newer abilities, (i.e. raise and exhaulted smite) you need to take devotion and extra smite evil etc. Those are taking away from other areas that I consider for my guy (toughness, Paladin Charisma I,II, III, Bulwark).

[Borror0]

Yes, but useful does not equal good.

It's like fighter feats. You come to a point where the choice becomes hard... because you're trying to find what feat sucks the less...


I agree with most of what Barror0 has said. The only thing is why my build, there are not enough AP for what I want to do with him. Like he said there is nothing great but they are a lot of things that are usefull towards my build. To get a lot of the newer abilities, (i.e. raise and exhaulted smite) you need to take devotion and extra smite evil etc. Those are taking away from other areas that I consider for my guy (toughness, Paladin Charisma I,II, III, Bulwark).

PS: I think my name is the most misspelled named on the forums.:p

[Zenako]

Couple of thoughts on this.

(and yes Borror0) my Paly can heal pretty effectively and has acted as the main healer on some quests. That being said, when doing so, the party needs to work within certain parameters which differ from the playstyle one might more often encounter.

As for Intimidate, very few are the other melees who get as much bonus there from their CHA as a Paly is likely to get, which can often offset the base ranks difference significantly with rest being items, enhancements and perhaps even feats. UMD is a fairly natural byproduct of high CHA as well.

Now some of the difference in percieved effectiveness can be blamed on how DDO was implemented. In D&D a Barbarian would often have to save its Rage for certain fights and could not afford to be 24/7 during a quest. That leaves them a lot less impressive in all those "other fights". (I speak from personal observation of characters in a gaming group I play in. While Raging, that character kicks butt, but if a battle runs long, he is pasty cakes for the rest of the fight until he gets a chance to recover. On the other hand, the fighter character can be strong and hard 24/7, falling short of the peak, but never hitting that valley either. Paladins were almost as strong as the fighter, lack some feat slots, and had burst damage via smites to exceed even a barbarian (and those smites were not subjected to the whims of real time movement glitches.) All this is to say, in DDO the melee paradigm is skewed by classes like Barbs being able to maintain full time peak without pretty much ever having to suffer the down times. They got their cake and could eat it too.. The Djinn were kind to them.

With that in mind, anyone looking to play a damage dealing character would naturally gravitate to the class with all the perks and no downside. Imagine how the balance would look if Rages only lasted a handful of seconds for some peak burst attacks, and then imposed the downside that could not be dismissed so easily. If the timing between encounters was expanded so that you might only have a new fight every few minutes instead of every 20 seconds. (would make timer things like Manyshot and the new Smite recoveries seem a bit more significant in play as well.)

So is the problem the design of the class and its features or how the class and its features fit into the playstyle that many players choose to use? For quite a while I saw Bards getting left out of groups, they had "poor" damage dealing abilities, virtually no spells that kill, etc. Compared to a nuking Sorc, what good were they? Well then they went and added some enhancements (Spellsinger, Warchanter, Virtuoso) and all of sudden, the doors opened and more and more parties and groups found a place for them. The more recent tweaks to Rangers accorded them a similar change in perception. (Both Bards and Ranger have always been effective in the right hands IMO).

Along those lines, perhaps the way to look at enhancing the perception and role of a Paly would be to think about ways to create some enhancements that make them more appealing in perception. Adding a some spells would be nice too and many many have been suggested.

Also when someone complains about gimped DPS, expect for boss mobs these days, does that really matter much at all anymore. I mean a 20 is a 20 is a 20 on the Vorpal. And even when you crank the numbers and do the damage over time and really factor in everything into the calculation, the difference as not as great. (Too often I see comparisons where the Barbarian has full rages in effect over then battle, but the paladin did not get to toss in any smites. Except for raid end bosses, how many actual mobs take more than a handful of seconds of beatdown before dying. Plenty of time for a Paly to fire off a few smites into the mix as well. Once you do that, the dps comparisons don't look as bad. (I know landing smites still sucks on many targets...see my sig...but that is another story).

Perhaps some "Holy Defender" enhancement lines. Give specific boosts when fighting specific evil foes (not unlike Ranger FE effects), where you select from a very limited list. Since it is an enhancement and easier to change, tone down the perks from FE, but spread them out for example. Give +1 to hit, damage, AC vs, as well as + bluff, etc versus those foes. At the second tier, increase the perks, etc. Introduce a "righteous fury" enhancement which would give a small chance to Process a Smite like effect every swing. (2-5% range with ability to increase its frequency as you increase the AP cost..) Things like this could help as well.

[stockwizard5]

Per the thread title "State of the Paladin" ... Mule

[Borror0]

(and yes Borror0) my Paly can heal pretty effectively and has acted as the main healer on some quests. That being said, when doing so, the party needs to work within certain parameters which differ from the playstyle one might more often encounter.

Zenako, to put it bluntly, a paladin's support capabilities are limited and inefficient.

Sure, you can workaround and make it work somehow, but that's irrevelent. You said it yourself, it wasn't easy. I'm sure there even was a couple of close calls... and all that time, you were acting a gimped healbot because you couldn't fight but you had less healing power than a cleric or an healing bard would. It's not even close to effective.


As for Intimidate, very few are the other melees who get as much bonus there from their CHA as a Paly is likely to get, which can often offset the base ranks difference significantly with rest being items, enhancements and perhaps even feats. UMD is a fairly natural byproduct of high CHA as well.

False. I doubt your paladin can reach 52 Intimidate, can he? With that, my fighter doesn't even floor Sally!!

Sorry, but paladins aren't effective Intimitanks. My fighter has 22 Cha, so before talking about "having high Cha" think about it for a second and realise that a fighter has +9 Intimidate over you for the ranks, +4 for the enhancements and maybe a 2-3 point for Skill Focus: Intimidate or Bullheaded because he can afford it because he can and you can't. Can your Cha cover half of that? Remember, my fighter has 22 Cha.


In D&D a Barbarian would often have to save its Rage for certain fights and could not afford to be 24/7 during a quest. That leaves them a lot less impressive in all those "other fights".

Not at higher level.


On the other hand, the fighter character can be strong and hard 24/7, falling short of the peak, but never hitting that valley either.

If you want to powergame in D&D, you don't make a pure class fighter!


[...] had burst damage via smites to exceed even a barbarian.

Smites are indeed better in PnP.


Also when someone complains about gimped DPS, expect for boss mobs these days, does that really matter much at all anymore. I mean a 20 is a 20 is a 20 on the Vorpal. And even when you crank the numbers and do the damage over time and really factor in everything into the calculation, the difference as not as great.

No, the difference is actually greater. TWF now have twice the "DPS" of a S&B character.

As for the "gimped DPS mattering less", this is not even close to true. DPS matters more than even. The optimum party for the Shroud is 1 TWF warchanter, 1 sorcerer, 1 cleric and TWF 9 rangers with FE:Evil Outsiders and Construct. The optimum party for a Vision of Destruction also contains clerics, rogue skills, bard and as much DPS as you can bring. An intimitank is nice, but really, what matters is DPS. The really hard part in this game is where DPS actually matters. And when you do the numbers... the slightest difference is huge over time... and those fights can last for a lot of HP!

Plenty of time for a Paly to fire off a few smites into the mix as well.

Smites are like a drop into the ocean. And yes, I will maintain that stance.


Give specific boosts when fighting specific evil foes (not unlike Ranger FE effects), where you select from a very limited list.

Pretty lame and underwhelming... and ranger-like. Not very paladin-like.


Introduce a "righteous fury" enhancement which would give a small chance to Process a Smite like effect every swing. (2-5% range with ability to increase its frequency as you increase the AP cost..) Things like this could help as well.

That's the best idea you came up with, but it's pretty **** hard to balance.

[Zenako]

But alot of this difference perception of effectiveness again comes down to playstyle.

If you are among those (quite a few I admit) who choose to mostly play in only a handful of quests (Shroud, Vod, etc) then like I admitted, the DPS will matter and come into play, but if like some others, where 95% of your play is NOT in those handful of quests, then the balancing act is a lot different. And ending up with someone having a lower dps does not matter as much. For some mobs, better dps hardly matters due to their HP and the quanta of damage being dealt. (simplistic example: Mob has 50 HP, one guy hits for 17 a shot while another does almost 40% more at 24 a shot. both take 3 hits to drop the mob. just a crafted example to make the point). now if the mob has 500 HP (which upper mid level ones do) then the 17 a pop guy takes about 30 hits and the 24 a pop guy takes 21 hits to drop the mob, and everyone agrees that makes a difference. Point I am making is context.

If you are seeking to acheive some balance or parity only in the End game Raid context, that imposes different goals than maintaining a balance during the rest of the game. While End Game is very important to many people, it is not important to a lot of others who play the game. I still meet people in pugs who have never been on ANY of the raids, and given their talk are not likely to make them anytime in the near future either.

As for Intimidate, you got me, a Paly who wants to do it has a natural disadvantage of the base ranks and no enhancements, but everything else is equal opportunity (if you want to spend feats). So 13 less natural maximum, BUT, what level of Intimidate is effective in a lot of the rest of the game? Is something in the mid 30's useful? Sure seems to be. Again, if your focus is on building a toon that has consistent success against the end raid bosses then your standards are going to be very high, but if you want to build what I still consider a very effective character within the bulk of the game, then you can achieve that and be rather successful.

(I personally enjoy most of the quests up to the raids and find most of the raids not all that interesting, challenging perhaps from a tactical or logistics standpoint, but not all that interesting. I have been on them all multiple times (some a lot more than others). So I tend to look more at how a character succeeds in groups (ranging from solo to full party) along the journey when judging effectiveness and how satisfied I am with how they turned out. If my main criteria was success/excellence in end game raids, I am sure my outlook would be different.

(as I have indicated before, for character reasons, my Paly is built with a 30 CHA now. Is it optimal for melee, not really. But 4 x 260 point LoH's are nice as is the Divine Soverignty line. Perhaps being able to channel Turn Undeads into something more martial might be a useful Enhancement to activate, something along the lines of the effects from various splat books...need to go back and look things up....)

[Artierius]

Much like any class a palli can excel at certain things within his class if he goes down that road fully. And for many people this is not a road most like to play.....support. However I am not going to say Palli's cant dish out the good damage with the right gear and set-up, however alot dream of what they want to be but end up mostly as .....support....:/ If your class doesn't have max AC, DPS or a godzillion Hp's then you are considered gimp, I will use this pally example I dreamed up here:

I call it "The Tanks / Monks best Freind"

Level 16 Pally - Halfling (32pt)

Str - 14 +6 item / +4 level / +2 favor tome = 26
Int - 8
Wis - 16 +6 item / +2 tome (if you are lucky) = 24
Dex - 10 +2-6 item = 12-16
Con - 14 +2-6 item = 16 - 20 (lucky x2 - +2 tome = 22)
Cha - 14 +2 palli / +6 item = 22 (lucky x3 - +2 tome = 24)

Feats:

1st - Least mark
3rd - Lesser Mark
6th - Empower healing
9th - Greater mark
12th - ImpCrit: slash
15th - MT

Enhancements -

Devotion II
Soverign host
Cha II
Bulwark IV
Resist II
Focus / Good III
Toughness II
Energy II
Unyielding Sover.
LoH II
Divine Sacrifice I
Halfling Comp IV
Extra Marks III

Spells like - Cure light / Mod / Serious / Resist(30 pt) / Virtue / Angelskin / Remove Curse / DF / Deathward or Restore

As you can see he will have good SP's ...buff all time as needed...heal good(enough) ...provide Max AC bonus from palli....give monks and casters +9 to concentration skill....have marks to heal with...extra LoH's and Unyeilding Sov....and give +3 so all saves as well.

His downfall is obviousley low Dps....but this is not his role here. If I was this guy ..I would just grab a greataxe and team with my intimitank...heal him ...buff him...and not have to worry about to much agro for myself as I attack the mob he is. But again this comes to gameplay and what quests you like to run. His little extra damge comes from smite / Divine Sacrifice / DF ...all helps, but he will be a low - mid level damage guy. If you can live with this, but know you are helping the party in many other ways then maybe support is for you.

I agree with what both of you are saying, as it is coming from two different perspectives. I build many guys....and some I know just won't be <elite>raid material, but it doensn't mean there not fun to play or can't get the job done in 90&#37; of the other content in this game.

[Borror0]

[...] but if like some others, where 95% of your play is NOT in those handful of quests, then the balancing act is a lot different. And ending up with someone having a lower dps does not matter as much.

Let's not get into an argumentless debate of what percentage of players plays what.. ok?


If you are among those (quite a few I admit) who choose to mostly play in only a handful of quests (Shroud, Vod, etc) then like I admitted, the DPS will matter and come into play, but if like some others, where 95% of your play is NOT in those handful of quests, then the balancing act is a lot different.

Ok, so... what do you run?
GH stuff? Do you always play lowbies?

At end game, there's 5 quests... plus the raids. And even before that, back in GH and Orchard, paladins were still the most gimped class in the game. Yes, rogues and rangers were unpopular due to their lower HP... but they were still better than paladins. In fact, there was less of a need for high HP as there now is. (But their Evasion balances for their lower HP.) The only reasons paladins were not excluded from LFMs were the following:

Paladins had more HP, thus, less catastrophic than a poorly built ranger with less than 200 HP.
Ignorance. I could teach a lot to a lot of PuG leaders.

So, regardless of what content you're running (unless you're talking about content in the area of level 12) paladins are by far the weakest class in the game. Under that, they are more solid but that's not new and I have often said it. The problem with paladins is mostly their lack of bonus at higher and the fact that the game has changed with time... and they cannot adapt to it.


For some mobs, better dps hardly matters due to their HP and the quanta of damage being dealt. (simplistic example: Mob has 50 HP, one guy hits for 17 a shot while another does almost 40% more at 24 a shot. both take 3 hits to drop the mob. just a crafted example to make the point). now if the mob has 500 HP (which upper mid level ones do) then the 17 a pop guy takes about 30 hits and the 24 a pop guy takes 21 hits to drop the mob, and everyone agrees that makes a difference. Point I am making is context.

Thing is, mobs at end game got more than 500 HP. Your example is laughable.

The context is end game, because paladins are fine until you reach that area of levels. And yes, DPS is important. Saying otherwise is either ignorance, lack of empiric experience or stupidity.


While End Game is very important to many people, it is not important to a lot of others who play the game.

Per that logic, game balancing is unimportant. Oh, and Turbine shouldn't do raids anymore.:rolleyes:


(if you want to spend feats)

Spending feats is not equal to everyone, my friend. You see, picking up Tempest on a warchanter is very, very costy. ON a ranger, much less. In fact, just picking up GTwF on a warchanter is costy. Same applies to trying a certain achetype with a certain class. You end up splitting yourself thinner.. for what? What does a paladin have over a fighter?

At the end of the day, not much... and we're talking about another class that needs serious love.


Is something in the mid 30's useful? Sure seems to be.

No.


Again, if your focus is on building a toon that has consistent success against the end raid bosses then your standards are going to be very high, but if you want to build what I still consider a very effective character within the bulk of the game, then you can achieve that and be rather successful.

Ok, so paladins are fine in that area... but the other classes totally destroy everything in their way.

There is still a lack of balance, Zenako.

[Shagn]

I love playing my paladin, even though I know he is weaker than most of the other classes. Healing from a wand is pointless. Paladins don't have enough mana to sustain themselves with cures from spells much less assist in healing somebody else. LoH, maxed out, and with 4 shots, will save people if you get them in time. With as hard as the mobs hit any more, they are usually dead before I even can even get a heal off. I can easily use all 4 within a few seconds and it hardly helps the party (not to mention doesn't even fill their health all the way up). Using +5 mith fp and +5 mith tower shield, and my AC is still gimped - by far- than any dex class melee. I have a +5 dex bonus to max out the armor, and still don't even come close (have everything but the chattering ring).

I failed to put any points in intimidate on my paladin (not a class skill), and with a 31 intimidate (with +15 int ring) it works fairly well since you can spam it. Granted I have only tried it on normal difficulties lately...

I only run my paladin for roleplaying any more, because even as a support class he is gimped. For any of the high-level raids, if there aren't at least 2-3 players I know who can dish out some DPS, I have to shelve my paladin. We most likely will not complete the raid due to lack of dps. Sad but true. I am at a loss to what role the paladin can play in the game any more. Poor AC, poor DPS, poor intimidate, poor healing, poor auras, poor buffs/spells. Maybe somebody can show me something a paladin can excel at better than the other classes... Please enlighten me.

[Borror0]

Poor AC, poor DPS, poor intimidate, poor healing, poor auras, poor buffs/spells.

The only one I disagree is poor AC. they have good AC... for now. However, the next module might be scaled for the 70 AC monks.

Let's hope not, or it's the death of the S&B.


Maybe somebody can show me something a paladin can excel at better than the other classes... Please enlighten me.

They make good mules... oh, and two or three levels of paladins on a fighter is really nice too. Six is also an interesting mix.

[Dawnblade]

Wow. A lot of responses here. Thanks for participating. I'll try to catch up with you guys....you are writing way too much :D


For reference, that shouldn't be the case. Nothnig in D&D leads to that.

If a god asked you to do quests for him he will most likely ask you to kill whatever gets in your way, right?

Well yeah. But killing something doesn't necessarily mean dps. You can chip away at it with your dagger and as long as you are the last one standing you should be good to go. If we were to do damage, I agree that two handed would be the way to go. Although, from a personal preference point of view, I would like to see more emphasis on the sword and shield combination. Maybe enhancements could allow us to do higher damage than other classes with sword and shield combination. How about something Hulk-like where the more damage you take, the more damage you dish out. That would be a good way of emphasising the tanking aspect while give the players the damage everyone likes to dish out now and then.


Agreed. However... except someone else to come and complain that his paladin can heal and blah, blah, blah... -_-

I'm sure some people will. But so can bards. The first time I heard of bards as healers I was severely confused. Totally not what I expected from a D&D based game. And sure, if your paladin is a halfing you get even more healing power. But then again, not everyone wants to play halfing paladins. Do we think that it would be too powerful if paladins follow the same healing spells progression as clerics ending with Cure Critical Wounds at spell level 4?



As I often repeated, the best way to fix this, to my eyes, would be to change the way Diplomacy currently works. You could make of Diplomacy a skill with two options. The first option would be the current de-aggroing form, so that anyone with points in Diplomacy would be able to continue using it the way it works. The second option would be how Intimidate currently works. It would help both paladins and monks, who are class who can/should tank... but lack the ability to draw aggro.

Then, the second part of the change would be to give Intimidate a debuffing part to. If a mob fail his check (or another higher DC check), he gets shakened lowering his to-hit and saves. That would reward those who put points into Intimidate rather than Diplomacy... and also avoid making Diplomacy clearly superior to Intimidate.

Any reason this would be better than simply making intimidate a class skill for paladins? It would be a lot simpler for them I would imagine. Not that I don't like your idea. I'm just asking you to convince me it's a viable option :)


The other issue I have with Eladrin's tag, is that AC isn't that easy to obtain. Ask any casual gamer, he will tell you. Sure, someone who plays a lot can get +5 MFP, +5 MTS, Chattering Ring and Mineral II weapon... but those are pretty hard to get for someone not playing a lot or not in a raiding guild. That leads to gimpy paladin... a lot. Or, for those who know what they are doing, just completly makes it uninteresting to play a paladin because they would be stronger at any other class. So, unless Eladrin mean defensive in other means than AC, I will disagree with it.

I'm not at level cap so I don't know. Is it easier for other classes to reach the ideal AC than it is for paladins?

[Borror0]

Although, from a personal preference point of view, I would like to see more emphasis on the sword and shield combination. Maybe enhancements could allow us to do higher damage than other classes with sword and shield combination.

I never saw why we should limit it to one fighting style, when you can near double the gain by opening it up to more fighting styles. You could give them stuff to make then better at S&B, but you could also just make them better, period. The advantage of more fighting styles is that you get more build options. More build options is... good for player retention.


I'm sure some people will. But so can bards. The first time I heard of bards as healers I was severely confused.

Bards can get over 1400 SPs with the right gear, and then you got their song to reduce the cost by 10%. And besides, they can do other stuff than healing... and they can UMD scrolls. And at worse, they can sit back and watch. The bonus DPS from Inspire Courage is greater than a paladin's DPS in a full raid.


Do we think that it would be too powerful if paladins follow the same healing spells progression as clerics ending with Cure Critical Wounds at spell level 4?

That's a big deviation from the D&D rules you're asking there. It's never going to happen.


Any reason this would be better than simply making intimidate a class skill for paladins? It would be a lot simpler for them I would imagine. Not that I don't like your idea. I'm just asking you to convince me it's a viable option :)

It's because this game is based on D&D... and Intimidate is not a paladin class skill in D&D.

It's a workaround within the rules. ;)


I'm not at level cap so I don't know. Is it easier for other classes to reach the ideal AC than it is for paladins?
Certain classes can reach higher... and be dual wielding at the same time...

But that's not the only problem (although it is a major one). Think about it for a second, and try to realise what would be the impact of balancing a class in consideration of an Armor Class a great percentage of paladin can only dream of. Think of how those builds will perform at end game if they don't meet the AC they should have... and there you got a part of the problem. Then, try to picture that the class in question is weak, even with that AC!

Clearer picture now? :)

[Dawnblade]

That's a big deviation from the D&D rules you're asking there. It's never going to happen.

That's too bad. And a bad reason not to do it. Not saying you are wrong; but I think that would make things a bit better.



It's because this game is based on D&D... and Intimidate is not a paladin class skill in D&D.

It's a workaround within the rules. ;)

But what you suggested is also not part of the D&D rules :). How about an enhancement that would double the base intimidate level of paladin, broken down into three tiers: 1st increases intimidate by 1/4, 2nd by 1/3 and 3rd tier increases by 1/2. This would cancel out the 1/2 skill point penalty for being cross class.....maybe?


Certain classes can reach higher... and be dual wielding at the same time...

But that's not the only problem (although it is a major one). Think about it for a second, and try to realise what would be the impact of balancing a class in consideration of an Armor Class a great percentage of paladin can only dream of. Think of how those builds will perform at end game if they don't meet the AC they should have... and there you got a part of the problem. Then, try to picture that the class in question is weak, even with that AC!


It is sad that anyone with a shield can be a better defense character. Damage reduction doesn't do much to balance the AC problem from what I understand.

[Borror0]

That's too bad. And a bad reason not to do it.

Actually, that's false. The game uses the name of D&D and has to be approved by WotC.


But what you suggested is also not part of the D&D rules :).

False. The debuff for Intimidate is already part of the D&D rules.

As for Diplomacy, it shouldn't be usable at all in combat. Since it can, it's not a big deviation to throw a check for "Me over them!!"


How about an enhancement that would double the base intimidate level of paladin, broken down into three tiers: 1st increases intimidate by 1/4, 2nd by 1/3 and 3rd tier increases by 1/2. This would cancel out the 1/2 skill point penalty for being cross class.....maybe?

That's way harder to code, if you ask me. And.. clunky? C'mon! What is so wrong in making Diplomacy good at last?!


Damage reduction doesn't do much to balance the AC problem from what I understand.

It can, but DPS is so important that I doubt it's really there to help.

[Dawnblade]

If you are among those (quite a few I admit) who choose to mostly play in only a handful of quests (Shroud, Vod, etc) then like I admitted, the DPS will matter and come into play, but if like some others, where 95% of your play is NOT in those handful of quests, then the balancing act is a lot different. And ending up with someone having a lower dps does not matter as much. For some mobs, better dps hardly matters due to their HP and the quanta of damage being dealt. (simplistic example: Mob has 50 HP, one guy hits for 17 a shot while another does almost 40% more at 24 a shot. both take 3 hits to drop the mob. just a crafted example to make the point). now if the mob has 500 HP (which upper mid level ones do) then the 17 a pop guy takes about 30 hits and the 24 a pop guy takes 21 hits to drop the mob, and everyone agrees that makes a difference. Point I am making is context.


If you are seeking to acheive some balance or parity only in the End game Raid context, that imposes different goals than maintaining a balance during the rest of the game. While End Game is very important to many people, it is not important to a lot of others who play the game. I still meet people in pugs who have never been on ANY of the raids, and given their talk are not likely to make them anytime in the near future either.

How do other classes balance that? It might be hard to balance. But then again. What does a dps barbarian does in high end content? What does the same barbarian (or any other class) do in the other 95% of the quests?



As for Intimidate, you got me, a Paly who wants to do it has a natural disadvantage of the base ranks and no enhancements, but everything else is equal opportunity (if you want to spend feats). So 13 less natural maximum, BUT, what level of Intimidate is effective in a lot of the rest of the game? Is something in the mid 30's useful? Sure seems to be. Again, if your focus is on building a toon that has consistent success against the end raid bosses then your standards are going to be very high, but if you want to build what I still consider a very effective character within the bulk of the game, then you can achieve that and be rather successful.

Can a paladin get enough intimidate AND have enough feats, skill points and other stats to actually endure the beating he is going to take when he draws all that aggro?

As far as what you mentioned on a previous post about an enhancement that would turn smite evil into a proc, I'd rather not. Kind of reminds me WoW's paladin where you never know when you are going to do damage (and it sucks when the proc doesn't go off until the mob is on it's last sliver of life and would have died with a normal attack anyway) . It's bad enough that with the current smite evil you never know when you are going to hit because of lag. I would prefer, as I've seen suggested, that it was charged when used, kind of like a buff, and then released on a hit.

[Angelus_dead]

That's way harder to code, if you ask me. And.. clunky? C'mon! What is so wrong in making Diplomacy good at last?!

The big problem with making Diplomacy good is that it would be unfair to the 99.8% of all existing DDO paladins who have zero ranks.

A change like that could not be rolled out without also releasing skill-point respecs.

[elraido]

The big problem with making Diplomacy good is that it would be unfair to the 99.8% of all existing DDO paladins who have zero ranks.

A change like that could not be rolled out without also releasing skill-point respecs.

I have a 30 something diplomacy. I wouldn't mind.

[Zenako]

Comments in Yellow


Let's not get into an argumentless debate of what percentage of players plays what.. ok?

Not so much refering to number of players but where the bulk of the quests lie, but I agree it is not central to many aspects of this thread

Ok, so... what do you run?
GH stuff? Do you always play lowbies?

Over the past week I have run the following that I can recall: 3 reavers, 2 shrouds, Rainbow, 2 or 3 giant hold quests (pop and Cry for help), 1 Tor run to get guildies blooded, a couple of desert quests (plus a handful of Bloodstone runs), the 4 house D depth quests, Redfang, STK, Tangleroot, a bunch of Explorer in Three Barrel Cove, Old Grey Garl and Trogladytes Get and Stones Run Red, the Brood of Flame. I run stuff at all levels fairly consistently.

At end game, there's 5 quests... plus the raids. And even before that, back in GH and Orchard, paladins were still the most gimped class in the game. Yes, rogues and rangers were unpopular due to their lower HP... but they were still better than paladins. In fact, there was less of a need for high HP as there now is. (But their Evasion balances for their lower HP.) The only reasons paladins were not excluded from LFMs were the following:

Paladins had more HP, thus, less catastrophic than a poorly built ranger with less than 200 HP.
Ignorance. I could teach a lot to a lot of PuG leaders.

So, regardless of what content you're running (unless you're talking about content in the area of level 12) paladins are by far the weakest class in the game. Under that, they are more solid but that's not new and I have often said it. The problem with paladins is mostly their lack of bonus at higher and the fact that the game has changed with time... and they cannot adapt to it.

The problem I see is in what is considered gimped varies. For some, if you are 10% less DPS you are gimped, for someone else it would be 33% and for someone else they might draw the line at 50% lower being "gimped". What I see is a lot of players choose to define the roles fairly narrowly and seek out only those that can optimally fill them. That tends to discount the value of flexibility and versatility. It also favors having full groups. While I often play in full groups, many times it ends up with only two or three characters at once. Again that boils down to how you are playing the game.

Thing is, mobs at end game got more than 500 HP. Your example is laughable.

umm, did you read the disclaimers about the example? It was only intended to illustrate a point about what I consider to be mid game mobs and those do only have HP in those realms. I well know that end game mobs have thousands of HP, been there, been beating the snot out of them.

The context is end game, because paladins are fine until you reach that area of levels. And yes, DPS is important. Saying otherwise is either ignorance, lack of empiric experience or stupidity.

The context for you is endgame. If you fix / change things to work well in endgame but end up with broken things early on, that is not good.

Per that logic, game balancing is unimportant. Oh, and Turbine shouldn't do raids anymore.:rolleyes:



Spending feats is not equal to everyone, my friend. You see, picking up Tempest on a warchanter is very, very costy. ON a ranger, much less. In fact, just picking up GTwF on a warchanter is costy. Same applies to trying a certain achetype with a certain class. You end up splitting yourself thinner.. for what? What does a paladin have over a fighter?

well duh, fighters get a ton more feats, rangers get "free feats" (as do monks and rogues to some extent) while others do not. Point is is you really want to do something you can. Will it gimp other parts of the character, almost certainly. As for what a Paladin has over a fighter: Spells, innate saves, immunities to disease, fear, turning undead, smites, etc. While most of those things contribute nothing to DPS, they do contribute to making the Character a Paladin. If all you want from a character is DPS, then just build a DPS monster (ranger/barbarian depending on the flavor of the month)

Ok, so paladins are fine in that area... but the other classes totally destroy everything in their way.

Rather broad brushed statement there that I cannot fully agree with.

There is still a lack of balance, Zenako.

Balance just restricted to DPS/melee? or overall class ability balance? I think the OVERALL benefits of the class are somewhat balanced with other characters. It is just when you discount as unimportant all those other aspects of the class that do not contribute to the singular goal of DPS that they seem so lacking. Healing, Turning, Smiting, Auras, Buffs, Spells, etc all add to the value of a Paladin. I cannot recall seeing very many Barbs, or Fighters actually helping others in the party with much of anything. Speaking of pure classes, not those with a splash to pump UMD. For most, their only contribution is swinging weapons at the mobs and killing them. And while this is undenyable important to success they are often extensively enabled in their pursuit of those goals by other characters in the party. I do not see a need for every class to have equal melee DPS capability. Just like all casters do not have equal spell casting capability. A bard has fewer SP, no free Meta (aka Wizard) and no POWER/WIZARDRY bonus multiple for spell points from items like a Sorc does. Each class bring something different to the table.

[Borror0]

How do other classes balance that? It might be hard to balance. But then again. What does a dps barbarian does in high end content? What does the same barbarian (or any other class) do in the other 95% of the quests?

Barbarians fair better all accross the content. Same for other classes, but fighters, paladins and monks... who all suffer similar issues to paladins.


Can a paladin get enough intimidate AND have enough feats, skill points and other stats to actually endure the beating he is going to take when he draws all that aggro?

Yeah, he can... but it takes the gear. Oh, and he has to be a dwarf.


I would prefer, as I've seen suggested, that it was charged when used, kind of like a buff, and then released on a hit.

That's my suggestion. And yes, it trigger when you want... rather than the stupid little delay that interrupts your attack chain...:mad:


The big problem with making Diplomacy good is that it would be unfair to the 99.8% of all existing DDO paladins who have zero ranks.

A change like that could not be rolled out without also releasing skill-point respecs.

Well, it would still improve the situation of paladins regardless of if there is a skill point respec.

However, I'm pretty sure the two of us agree that a skill point respec is way overdue. The amount of changes to skills have piled up with the time and it starts to get pretty big.

Making Intimidate and Diplomacy instant.
Making Listen useful
Reducing the cooldown on Intimidate, Diplomacy and Bluff.
Making Perform the base of Fascinate's DC.

And those are only those I can think of.

[Borror0]

Over the past week I have run the following that I can recall: 3 reavers, 2 shrouds, Rainbow, 2 or 3 giant hold quests (pop and Cry for help), 1 Tor run to get guildies blooded, a couple of desert quests (plus a handful of Bloodstone runs), the 4 house D depth quests, Redfang, STK, Tangleroot, a bunch of Explorer in Three Barrel Cove, Old Grey Garl and Trogladytes Get and Stones Run Red, the Brood of Flame. I run stuff at all levels fairly consistently.

So, you see, in there you got quests where paladins are either sub-par... or at a level where they are fine.

Sorry, not an argument against.


That tends to discount the value of flexibility and versatility. It also favors having full groups. While I often play in full groups, many times it ends up with only two or three characters at once.

A ranger is going to perform better in a half-full group than a paladin would. Same for a bard, a cleric, a sorcerer, a...

You get the point. I play in small groups really often. I'm either in full raid groups to raid, or I'm in a group of three of more guildies running a lowbie or Vale quest. I shortman, a lot. It's not a problem. Past a certain level, paladins are getting extremly weaker than other classes. It doesn't matter what class.


The context for you is endgame. If you fix / change things to work well in endgame but end up with broken things early on, that is not good.

Balance at mid level is more important than capped where most of the players play? Yeah, right.

Balance at mid level is unimportant. And yes, it doesn't matter what player type you are. Unless something is extremely overpowered at a certain level, it's not important. Part of the reason is that those quests are really, really easy, but also, nothing is static liek end game: with the same level 7 character, you may as well play with level 4's or with level 10's. And then, you're going to level up in a few quests and you'll be of a different ppower doing other quests. Thus, balance at mid level is barely a concern. Do you see posts about how overpowered level 9 paladins are? No. They are going to level up and by level 11 they'll be really misadapted to the quests they run.

Characters are being improved further and further with time. Most improvements are released at lower levels. Did you see posts about how level 6 rangers were overpowered since they were given Ram's Might and Tempest? Because they are much more powerful at that level than they used to be!! The concept of keeping balance at that level is laughable..

The only place where balance will most likely matter.. is end game. Unless there is a serious problem at another level.

Other than that, strengthening paladins goes by improving level 11 and beyond, it wouldn't hurt your "mid level balance". Nearly all suggestion are aimed at that level or are suggestion where the true power will be near the current cap. Now, if you're scared over the balance of the lower levels, I would start a thread about how much PrEs are bad for the game and how they affect the balance at mid levels... and that they should stop their production now. They game is fine anyway.:rolleyes:


Point is is you really want to do something you can. Will it gimp other parts of the character, almost certainly.

You almost got my point. It's not "other parts" it's the character himself. A class might have to giomp itself to accomplish his role in a party.


As for what a Paladin has over a fighter: Spells, innate saves, immunities to disease, fear, turning undead, smites, etc. While most of those things contribute nothing to DPS, they do contribute to making the Character a Paladin.

Saves? My fighter never fails his.
Immunity to disease? Can be put on an item and I know a lot of fighters wiuth an immunity to it also. I prefer drinking potions.
Turn Undead? Let me politely laugh.
Smites? Err... I think you know my point of view on that.


If all you want from a character is DPS, then just build a DPS monster (ranger/barbarian depending on the flavor of the month)

This game isn't all about DPS. Proof, my main is an intimitank.

That's not even revelant to the discussion. I know a character can be beneficial to the party by other means than DPS. Healing, CC, etc. Fact is, paladins are not. Their "benefits" are laughable and barely matters... and don't outweight for their lower DPS. Because this is what it is about, it's whether or not their lower DPS is compensated somewhere... it's not.


Each class bring something different to the table.

True, but paladins are leechers. They don't carry as much weight as other characters.

[Dawnblade]

Yeah, he can... but it takes the gear. Oh, and he has to be a dwarf.


Why is that? Armor mastery and other enhancements? If that is the case, how can we balance the other races without making dwarven paladins even stronger? Anything we give paladins will also be given to dwarven paladins. Are they always going to have an edge?



That's my suggestion. And yes, it trigger when you want... rather than the stupid little delay that interrupts your attack chain...:mad:

Does anyone else agree with that suggestion? I could try to compile a list of productive things that come out of this thread in the OP if we get enough ideas. But let's try to keep this civilized. We are here for the best of the paladin class, not to kill each ohter :p

The idea of diplomacy being used for aggro doesn't seem right to me. But I guess I'd be willing to accept that if there is no way we could get intimidate to work. But then, when would we pick what use we want out of diplomacy? When we use the skill or as a different toggle process? That seems awkward to me.

Why would my idea by too hard to code? There are already enhancements that add numbers to skills. It shouldn't be too different to make them multiply the base number instead.




Balance at mid level is more important than capped where most of the players play? Yeah, right.

Balance at mid level is unimportant. And yes, it doesn't matter what player type you are. Unless something is extremely overpowered at a certain level, it's not important. Part of the reason is that those quests are really, really easy, but also, nothing is static liek end game: with the same level 7 character, you may as well play with level 4's or with level 10's. And then, you're going to level up in a few quests and you'll be of a different ppower doing other quests. Thus, balance at mid level is barely a concern. Do you see posts about how overpowered level 9 paladins are? No. They are going to level up and by level 11 they'll be really misadapted to the quests they run.

I disagree that we should be concerned only with high end content. If a paladin can't find a group to help him get to the higher levels because no one wants a paladin in their group, he will never experience the high end content. Sure, most mid level quests can be done with any combination of classes. But for those who can't, there has got to be a reason to invite a paladin to a group other than just to fill up the spot.



Saves? My fighter never fails his.
Immunity to disease? Can be put on an item and I know a lot of fighters wiuth an immunity to it also. I prefer drinking potions.
Turn Undead? Let me politely laugh.
Smites? Err... I think you know my point of view on that.

I agree with this. Turn undead is useless. I've tried using it in quests a few levels bellow my character and many times it does nothing. Same level, forget it. Smites would be good if they changed how they are used. But then again, not everything in the game is evil, so we would still be at disavantage with other classes that can do spike damage to anything (or most things). High Saves, from what I've seen, can be achieved by any other classes; that however, might be with some of the better gear? Disease immunity can be achieved with items, and it's rarety from what I've seen in the game barely makes it important.

[Borror0]

Are they always going to have an edge?

It's possible. Most of it comes from Amor Mastery.

At worse, it's not a sin to have a race better at one class. It perfectly acceptable, for as lnog as the gap is not significantly huge. The problem with dwarves is that they are the 'best race' for too many class/archetype... but most of that comes from Toughness. Deal with that, and they become a powerful race... but not as grossly overpowered as they are now.


The idea of diplomacy being used for aggro doesn't seem right to me. But I guess I'd be willing to accept that if there is no way we could get intimidate to work.

Like I said, it's about 'convincing' the mobs to pick you.


But then, when would we pick what use we want out of diplomacy?
When we use the skill or as a different toggle process? That seems awkward to me.

Ever casted Resist Energy?


Why would my idea by too hard to code? There are already enhancements that add numbers to skills. It shouldn't be too different to make them multiply the base number instead.

Do you mean increase the cap of rank they can have or just a freebee bonus to intimidate?


If a paladin can't find a group to help him get to the higher levels because no one wants a paladin in their group, he will never experience the high end content.

Anyone not wanting a paladin under level 9 is clueless. Until level 9, paladins are a very solid class. Starting level 10 they get weaker and weaker... and by level 12, it gets riddiculous. Oh, and don't get me started about level 16 paladin...:mad:


Sure, most mid level quests can be done with any combination of classes. But for those who can't, there has got to be a reason to invite a paladin to a group other than just to fill up the spot.

A group of three paladins that knows what they are doing can level themselves up to level 16 if they want.

[Dawnblade]

Like I said, it's about 'convincing' the mobs to pick you.

Ever casted Resist Energy?

Well, if it works like Resist Energy I'm going to have to disagree with you. I want a taunt skill that works immediatelly like intimidate. Sometimes you don't have time to click two things before you caster dies.



Do you mean increase the cap of rank they can have or just a freebee bonus to intimidate?

Not sure I understand your question. What I mean is: Let's say the paladin has +3 cha bonus to his intimidate. Then the goes and spends 20 skill points on it. He'll have a total of 13 (20/2 because of cross class skill plus the cha bonus. Then he buys the first level of the "intimihancement" and his total base skill is increased by 25% and becomes 15 (20/2= 10 +25% = 12 rounding down plus 3 cha bonus. Buying the 2nd level of the enhancement would increase the base skill by 50% making it 18. Level 3 would be 100% cancelling out the cross class skill disavantage, making the total intimidate for our paladin 23. Granted I've pulled these numbers out of my hmmm hat. Better numbers could be created for balance but you get the idea.




Anyone not wanting a paladin under level 9 is clueless. Until level 9, paladins are a very solid class. Starting level 10 they get weaker and weaker... and by level 12, it gets riddiculous. Oh, and don't get me started about level 16 paladin...:mad:


Tell me what a paladin can do better than anyone at any level. Not being a jerk, just honestly trying to find out to figure out the "state of the paladin". Say, people get clerics and bards for healing/buff, rogues for traps, everything else for dps from my experience. People in the quests I've done don't really seem to follow any strategy. Even in stuff like TS it's just rush in, kill, heal and be done. No tanking, no CCing. Granted I've mostly done pugs; maybe with guilds it's different.


A group of three paladins that knows what they are doing can level themselves up to level 16 if they want.

Can't a group of 3 anything who knows what they are doing get to level 16? With potions for healing, there's very little a paladin can offer that other classes would be missing.

[Borror0]

Sometimes you don't have time to click two things before you caster dies.

You know you can drag the icons from the pop to your hotbars, right?


Better numbers could be created for balance but you get the idea.

I get where you're going, but that fix would either penalize those who took a level of fighter/rogue to max intimidate, or at the opposite would overpowere them because they would have +38 Intimidate before adding Cha, feats or items.


Tell me what a paladin can do better than anyone at any level.

Paladins are great at low levels. S&B DPS is not as laughable as at cap. Honestly, before level 10, a paladin has nothing to complain.

They can kill great and their AC matter. It past level 9 that a paladin starts lagging behind the others.


Can't a group of 3 anything who knows what they are doing get to level 16?

Pretty much, but that was my point: they are not a liability to the point of uselessness. It shouldn't be that hard for them to get in a group.

It's also easier for a group of paladins than say a group of fighter or barbarian at lower levels. Their self-suffiency matters more at lower levels, making the task easier for them. At higher levels, it's pretty much the same regardless of if you're a paladin, fighter or barbarian... however.

[Dawnblade]

You know you can drag the icons from the pop to your hotbars, right?

Actually, I didn't, thanks! :)

It doesn't seem like many people are interested in this discussion. You and I can probably talk about this forever but it would be cool to get some more points of view.

[Borror0]

It doesn't seem like many people are interested in this discussion. You and I can probably talk about this forever but it would be cool to get some more points of view.

Let's just say that it's a dead horse that has been beaten... a lot.

[maddmatt70]

For all of this paladin defending and such Borro - my question is when are you going to roll one up and level one? You have a fighter with 2 levels of paladin, but that hardly counts.

[Borror0]

For all of this paladin defending and such Borro - my question is when are you going to roll one up and level one? You have a fighter with 2 levels of paladin, but that hardly counts.

Oh, I had one. It's a mule. Alhandrah, level 12 paladin/2 fighter.

I leveled another one, wasn't what I would have wanted around level 11.

[Dawnblade]

I get where you're going, but that fix would either penalize those who took a level of fighter/rogue to max intimidate, or at the opposite would overpowere them because they would have +38 Intimidate before adding Cha, feats or items.


Would it be better if the enhancements were available at lvl 8 and beyond? That would mean that someone would have to go deep into paladin to get the benefits of their overpowered intimidate.

How about if there was a line of paladin enhancements that emphasized charisma? According to the (old)rules of AD&D, high charisma is one of the requirements for playing a palading. I think the minimun you had to have was 15 charisma? Or was it 17? Anyway, in DDO, there's little reason to have a high score in that attribute.

How about enhancements that added the charisma bonus to: AC (similar to monk wisdom), double the charisma mod to charisma based skills, add sp bonus based on charisma to the base wisdom sp. Stuff like that. These could have restrictions to work much like the wisdom AC to monks. Maybe the cha AC would only apply when in heavy armor and wearing a shield. Same for the charisma bonus to skills. Restrictions could be tailored to minimize the advantages of multiclassing. For example having to wear heavy armor for a bonus AC would prevent it from stacking with the monk AC bonus. There could be a charisma bonus to DR reductions to simulate the awe that the holy warrior inspires to his foe;

That could possibly help with the problem paladins have spreading their stats too thin, allowing them to centralize a bit more on charisma and not be gimped.

[Artierius]

I like some of the ideas you are throwing out there...however the one thing when making a pally is that to make them any good you already need to spend so many points on their enhancements. Adding more useful ones only spreads those so few points you get into even more lesser enhancements as people will want to get so many of them still. Maybe if they make pally enhancements only cost .5 instead of 1 or 2 per level increase can they get back some of their power...:]

[Borror0]

Would it be better if the enhancements were available at lvl 8 and beyond? That would mean that someone would have to go deep into paladin to get the benefits of their overpowered intimidate.

It changes nothing, Dawn.

Say your paladin multiclasses with rogue or paladin, he can have [character level +3] ranks into Intimidate, even though all of his 15 other levels are paladin levels. So, if a paladin spends a lot of skill points into Intimidate, he's going to have a very, veyr high score... for very little investment. That's the problem with it. And anyway, it costs way too many APs for something that should ne inate. I don't see why people are so stubborn of fixing everything by enhancements...


How about if there was a line of paladin enhancements that emphasized charisma? [...]Anyway, in DDO, there's little reason to have a high score in that attribute.

True, there are not many benefit of having an high Cha, but again... silly enhancement suggestion...
What bout using the spells and feats from PnP that actually make Cha useful instead?

They have much more logic in them and actually strengthen something that does make the class different from the start!


How about enhancements that added the charisma bonus to: AC (similar to monk wisdom)

That would be grossly overpowered and bad for the game.


double the charisma mod to charisma based skills

Crazy UMD paladins?


add sp bonus based on charisma to the base wisdom sp.

Bah, why not... but how many paladin really spend APs for a larger SP pool?


These could have restrictions to work much like the wisdom AC to monks. Maybe the cha AC would only apply when in heavy armor and wearing a shield.

That would be forcing a class into a unique fighting style, I have to oppose.


There could be a charisma bonus to DR reductions to simulate the awe that the holy warrior inspires to his foe

Or... what about using spells for that? Like, you know, the thing that makes paladin different from fighters?

[Zenako]

I suspect that the reason so many suggestions focus on changes to Enhancements is that they are readily changed given current implementation of DDO, while Skill Points are locked down and Feats are very costly to change around and more limited in what is available.

Enhancements also give you the option of restricting them to certain classes or certain minimum levels in a class before they can be taken which helps avoid some potentially overpowering situations.

[Dawnblade]

It changes nothing, Dawn.

Say your paladin multiclasses with rogue or paladin, he can have [character level +3] ranks into Intimidate, even though all of his 15 other levels are paladin levels. So, if a paladin spends a lot of skill points into Intimidate, he's going to have a very, veyr high score... for very little investment. That's the problem with it.

I would assume that like most everything else, anything past a certain threshold becomes irrelevant. Plus, if someone wants to build their character to do nothing than intimidating, I don't mind that they have uber high score. I just want to see paladins as viable tanks. Right now, the low level of intimidate paladins can achieve prevent that. I think....


True, there are not many benefit of having an high Cha, but again... silly enhancement suggestion...
What bout using the spells and feats from PnP that actually make Cha useful instead?

Well it's my understanding that enhancements were a DDO addition to D&D. So it's easy to fool around with it without affecting the core rules of D&D. I honestly think the whole intimidate issue could be solved by making it a paladin skill. But you pointed out (and I'm sure the puritans agree) it would be against the core rules. I really don't agree that diplomacy would be a solution. It just seems forced. I can't imagine diplomaticly forcing someone to attack me.


That would be grossly overpowered and bad for the game.

Why? You said yourself that it's hard for the average paladin to get the AC necessary do well in the end game. That would make things easier.


Crazy UMD paladins?

UMD is not a class skill for paladins so you would need to multiclass. Again spreading out enhancements through the levels could minimize the effects of multiclassing.



Bah, why not... but how many paladin really spend APs for a larger SP pool?

Well if you want spells to be our salvation, we should worry about our sp. My sp bar is actually larger than my hp bar at the moment. It allows me to live longer since I can somewhat heal myself in between battles. The problem is staying alive through the tougher battles. This is where slightly stronger heals would come in handy.



That would be forcing a class into a unique fighting style, I have to oppose.

It wouldn't force anything. It would only force a tank to dress up as a tank. If you want your AC bonus, you DR bonus, and your intimidate bonus, for tanking, you better dress up for the occasion. If you want to be a dps paladin you can wear whatever else you want.



Or... what about using spells for that? Like, you know, the thing that makes paladin different from fighters?

I'm not against using spells. But spells would be bound to the core pnp rules as well I would imagine. Furthermore, with the currently low sp that we get, if we had to use spells to ungimpify ourselves, we would quickly run out of sp and be gimped again until the next shrine, unless you made them have long durations. Specially if spells weren't self buff only, everyone in the party would want some of the cool buffs. Then paladins wouldn't have enough to heal.

Making paladins spell based would probably require some enhancement balancing as well in my opinion. Right now there is very little that would allow a paladin to be an efficient spellcaster.

[Verdant_Force]

I'm not against using spells. But spells would be bound to the core pnp rules as well I would imagine. Furthermore, with the currently low sp that we get, if we had to use spells to ungimpify ourselves, we would quickly run out of sp and be gimped again until the next shrine, unless you made them have long durations. Specially if spells weren't self buff only, everyone in the party would want some of the cool buffs. Then paladins wouldn't have enough to heal.

Making paladins spell based would probably require some enhancement balancing as well in my opinion. Right now there is very little that would allow a paladin to be an efficient spellcaster.

Unless I'm buffing the party up with resists, my sp bar lasts me until the shrine because the only spells i have to recast are divine favor and angelskin with the occasional virtue when it runs out. I don't even bother with healing spells because wand whipping will do the same effect to top me off in between fights, IMO paladin cure spells are laughable during combat. The only cures i use come from wands and lay on hands...so my sp is rarely drained from heals.

Paladins don't have to be efficient spellcasters...they just need to be better buffers. I would suggest having them be self only due to the limited sp otherwise you'll have a similar effect to barkskin and rangers where everyone always nags the ranger for a bark even though it hardly gets their AC to an effective level in most cases.

[Girevik]

A couple quick comments.

Enhancements are a good tool for fixing balance issues because it is possible to respec and select a new batch of them after an update. Skills can not be respecced.

I go for extra spell points on my Paladin. I use them to cast resists on the party. I agree, on the whole my spell selection pales in comparison to a Cleric or Wizard, but I do still get 30 points resists, so if I use my points for Resists, they can use theirs for other useful purposes.

[Borror0]

I would assume that like most everything else, anything past a certain threshold becomes irrelevant. Plus, if someone wants to build their character to do nothing than intimidating, I don't mind that they have uber high score.

It's about giving them a big bonus without any logical reason to. It's not about getting 70 Intimidate, but getting 50 withotu a problem.


I really don't agree that diplomacy would be a solution. It just seems forced. I can't imagine diplomaticly forcing someone to attack me.

It's not forcing, it's convincing!

What do you think Intimidate does? You grab the mob by the head, push him against a wall and yell at him to hit you othewise you kill him?:confused:


Why? You said yourself that it's hard for the average paladin to get the AC necessary do well in the end game. That would make things easier.

It would simply push the maximum AC up. Fixes nothing at the end of the day.


UMD is not a class skill for paladins so you would need to multiclass.

That's totally false.

8.5 rank
+14 Cha
+4 GH
+2 luck
+3 Cartouche
31.5

Now, with rogue levels (which is commonly done and to account):

+19 rank
+14 Cha
+4 GH
+2 luck
39

That's Heal scrolls on 1, without uber gear or any large investment on Cha!!


Again spreading out enhancements through the levels could minimize the effects of multiclassing.

That's false, unless you put the enhancement at level 20 and the game never goes beyond level 20.


Well if you want spells to be our salvation, we should worry about our sp.

What level are you?

172 base
+175 Wizardry VII (Ring of Thelis)
+125 Wisdom (20 Wisdom)
472 SPs

That's without:

Paladin Energy of the Templar III (60 SPs)
Mental Toughness (85 SPs)
Improved Mental Toughness (85 SPs)
Green Steel accesories (150 SPs)

Do you really need that much?


It wouldn't force anything. It would only force a tank to dress up as a tank.

It would force paladins as 'tanks', trust me. You already see that in usual paladiin debates, it would make it worse.


I'm not against using spells. But spells would be bound to the core pnp rules as well I would imagine.

Yes, but there is no issue on that side.


Specially if spells weren't self buff only, everyone in the party would want some of the cool buffs.

Self-buffs accomplish different purposes than buff everyone can have.


Then paladins wouldn't have enough to heal.

Weren't you the one to admit paladin heals were suffisent?


Making paladins spell based would probably require some enhancement balancing as well in my opinion. Right now there is very little that would allow a paladin to be an efficient spellcaster.

It's not about making of paladin a 'spellcasting call', it's about making them able to buff.

[Borror0]

Enhancements are a good tool for fixing balance issues because it is possible to respec and select a new batch of them after an update.

So can spells.


Skills can not be respecced.

Skill should be respec'able... why? Because they have been modified too much previously.

[Freeman]

That's totally false.

8.5 rank
+14 Cha
+4 GH
+2 luck
+3 Cartouche
31.5

Now, with rogue levels (which is commonly done and to account):

+19 rank
+14 Cha
+4 GH
+2 luck
39

That's Heal scrolls on 1, without uber gear or any large investment on Cha!!

Um, a +14 Charisma requires a Charisma of 38. Wouldn't that be a rather large investment in Charisma, and pretty much gimp the paladin completely?

[slumbering_dragon]

well bud i would tell you pallies make great back up healer, like bards, and awsome tanks. what d oyou think a tank is, someone who can go in a mob and stand with very little cleric healing. i play pallies over anything. the decent ac, the hp and the ability to do massasive amount of damage a hit and raise the cleric. weild khopeshes, with the smites, and divine sacrafice, doing 7d6 damage that no other melle class gets, and you can do 7d6 every 3 sec, increases you crit range, and damage. with the reight build you can out tank the barb in the 13th eclipse. i know at times i get his agro ever everyone else beating down on him. the self seficient is nice. i can heal my self buff my self with cleric buffs, and wit hthe right items pots arcan buff to. pallies are the most soloable class out there.(before monk came out) so dont comlain to much just choose you feats right your stats for what you want and find the gear for you, then youll see.

[Freeman]

...doing 7d6 damage that no other melle class gets...

Rogues aren't a melee class?

[Zenako]

Um, a +14 Charisma requires a Charisma of 38. Wouldn't that be a rather large investment in Charisma, and pretty much gimp the paladin completely?

Agreed, I have a 30 CHA on mine and get grief for what that does. (now I do not have any Shroud Items but I did eat a +2 Tome IIRC) However those 260 Point LoH are nice.

[Borror0]

Um, a +14 Charisma requires a Charisma of 38. Wouldn't that be a rather large investment in Charisma, and pretty much gimp the paladin completely?

The suggestion was to double the boost Cha was giving to Cha skills. Thus, it would only require a 24 cha to get +14 to Cha skills.

I was proving him that it was a really bad suggestion.

[Dawnblade]

Um, a +14 Charisma requires a Charisma of 38. Wouldn't that be a rather large investment in Charisma, and pretty much gimp the paladin completely?

I was wondering that myself. I think he misunderstood me. I meant charisma bonus not your charisma score.


It's about giving them a big bonus without any logical reason to. It's not about getting 70 Intimidate, but getting 50 withotu a problem.

Well perhaps if someone is willing to focus their character for such goals it would be a reason. Plus like I said, I made up the numbers for demonstration. They could be changed for balance.


It's not forcing, it's convincing!

What do you think Intimidate does? You grab the mob by the head, push him against a wall and yell at him to hit you othewise you kill him?:confused:

From what I see, intimidate can be anything like a war chant, banging your weapons together, making faces, what have you. Diplomacy is generally used to avoid conflict.


It would simply push the maximum AC up. Fixes nothing at the end of the day.

How? I just need an explanation so I can try to argue.




That's totally false.

8.5 rank
+14 Cha
+4 GH
+2 luck
+3 Cartouche
31.5

Now, with rogue levels (which is commonly done and to account):

+19 rank
+14 Cha
+4 GH
+2 luck
39

That's Heal scrolls on 1, without uber gear or any large investment on Cha!!

See above. I think you misunderstood me.


That's false, unless you put the enhancement at level 20 and the game never goes beyond level 20./[quote]

I didn't say eliminate, I said minimize, reduce.

[quote=Borror0;1817334]What level are you?

172 base
+175 Wizardry VII (Ring of Thelis)
+125 Wisdom (20 Wisdom)
472 SPs

That's without:

Paladin Energy of the Templar III (60 SPs)
Mental Toughness (85 SPs)
Improved Mental Toughness (85 SPs)
Green Steel accesories (150 SPs)Do you really need that much?

Currently my first and gimped char has 8 levels of paladin. I can't remember what I have. I'll check when I get home. I do have levels of templar (2 or 3 can't remember) and the trinket from splinterskull that gives 50sp. You are assuming 20 wisdom, which granted, might not be that hard to get with a base 14 and a +6 item, but then, how do you spread out your other points? (asking out of curiosity not picking a fight). Plus you are assuminh the wizardry VII item which I'm not sure everyone will have (don't actually know how hard it is to get that).

Depending on what they do with spells and if they are self only or not, who knows how much we would need. The spells are not here for us to know


It would force paladins as 'tanks', trust me. You already see that in usual paladiin debates, it would make it worse.

It's not much different than the labeling done to clerics, bards, wizards, etc. Players put those labels on classes. It still doesn't mean someone could build a non tank paladin.


Weren't you the one to admit paladin heals were suffisent?

Me? I don't believe it was. I even suggested that paladins follow the cleric progression to make them better at healing. If I said at some point their heals are sufficient I probably meant something else.

[Freeman]

The suggestion was to double the boost Cha was giving to Cha skills. Thus, it would only require a 24 cha to get +14 to Cha skills.

I was proving him that it was a really bad suggestion.

Ahh, okay, I missed that part. Let's see, if my paladin's charisma bonus was doubled, it would bring him up to a total of +10 to his UMD, bringing the total up to somewhere around +19. Hmm, maybe there's a reason I stopped putting points into it...

[Borror0]

what d oyou think a tank is, someone who can go in a mob and stand with very little cleric healing.

A tank, is someone who can hold aggro and stand the aggro he gains.

Currently, a paladin's DPS is so slow that he won't hold aggro against my warchanter.


the ability to do massasive amount of damage a hit

Doing a lot in one hit has no value. I wouldn't care less if you could do criticals going for 1k, fact is your DPS is low.


raise the cleric.

I know a lot of people who do that.


weild khopeshes

Not exclusive to paladin, y'know.


divine sacrafice, doing 7d6 damage that no other melle class gets, and you can do 7d6 every 3 sec, increases you crit range, and damage.

The damage gotten out of it is... unimpressive?


with the reight build you can out tank the barb in the 13th eclipse.

Let me be skeptical.


pallies are the most soloable class out there.

That's not even close to true. Besides, solo play has no value over the strength of a class in group play... which is what this game is.


just choose you feats right your stats for what you want and find the gear for you, then youll see.

Are you telling me I don't have the knowledge to build a paladin right?

[Dawnblade]

The suggestion was to double the boost Cha was giving to Cha skills. Thus, it would only require a 24 cha to get +14 to Cha skills.

I was proving him that it was a really bad suggestion.

I see. I think you are getting too caught up on the concrete of the ideas. I'm trying to come up with with concepts. The numbers can be changed around. If double is too much do 75%, or 50% or whatever would be fair.

[Borror0]

Well perhaps if someone is willing to focus their character for such goals it would be a reason.

Ok, I'll restate: 70 Intimidate is totally overkill, however, that change would allow paladins to be the best at Intimidate with a very small investment.


Plus like I said, I made up the numbers for demonstration. They could be changed for balance.

It's a bad idea. It places the paladin on a different scale than other classes and makes it a pain in the butt to balance, amongst other things.


From what I see, intimidate can be anything like a war chant, banging your weapons together, making faces, what have you.

How would that force anyone to attack you?


Diplomacy is generally used to avoid conflict.

That's as false as saying all a rogue is good for is disabling traps.


How? I just need an explanation so I can try to argue.

Current max AC + Cha = higher AC than current max. Clearer?


I didn't say eliminate, I said minimize, reduce.

How would an enhancement placed at a level other than 20 reduce the effect of multiclassing one level of rogue?


You are assuming 20 wisdom, which granted, might not be that hard to get with a base 14 and a +6 item, but then, how do you spread out your other points? (asking out of curiosity not picking a fight).

It totally depends on the build. Even with a with a 14 Wisdom (8 base + 6 item), you'd still get 397 SPs with the set up I gave you.


Plus you are assuminh the wizardry VII item which I'm not sure everyone will have (don't actually know how hard it is to get that).

Depends on your habits. I raid a lot. I have pulled like 4 Ring of Thelis in less than 40 Hound runs. That doesn't count when I would have had the chance to roll on it.

It's a very easy to get item, for a raider.


Depending on what they do with spells and if they are self only or not, who knows how much we would need. The spells are not here for us to know

400 SPs is 16 level 4, 20 level 3 spells, 26 level 2 spells or 40 level 1 spells.

I really, really, really doubt we would need much more SPs for buffs.


It's not much different than the labeling done to clerics, bards, wizards, etc. Players put those labels on classes. It still doesn't mean someone could build a non tank paladin.

It's not the labeling doen on the class by the players that is the problem, but by the developers.


If I said at some point their heals are sufficient I probably meant something else.

I meant "weren't suffisent", my appologies.

[slumbering_dragon]

A tank, is someone who can hold aggro and stand the aggro he gains.

Currently, a paladin's DPS is so slow that he won't hold aggro against my warchanter.



Doing a lot in one hit has no value. I wouldn't care less if you could do criticals going for 1k, fact is your DPS is low.



I know a lot of people who do that.



Not exclusive to paladin, y'know.



The damage gotten out of it is... unimpressive?



Let me be skeptical.



That's not even close to true. Besides, solo play has no value over the strength of a class in group play... which is what this game is.



Are you telling me I don't have the knowledge to build a paladin right?

yeah i guess i am saying you cant build a pally, hey man i did not rip you donw so what is this about, i stated my opionion not a fact, i guess for you i will clerify this for now on, did not mean to step on your little toes there. my damage is impresive, i think. doing min 150-250 a hit with duel weilding. and yes with the pally enhancemnt i double my threat with each hit. and a pally cna tank and hold the agro, i am currently starting a new pally with high itmidate. and what are you talking about my damage is slow, i get the same swing rate as a barb or fighter, with or with out haste, what a barb may do alittle more damage due to a higher str, but i cna heal my self, and buff my self on a more consitant rate than a barb. so if all your going to do is tare everyone one down on this forum just to make u happy or feel important, get off the computer and go outside then. you just cause problems.

[DSC]

The idea of diplomacy being used for aggro doesn't seem right to me. But I guess I'd be willing to accept that if there is no way we could get intimidate to work.

The big advantage of this, as Borror0 has indicated, is that Paladins get Diplomacy, and likely always will, because that's the way it is in PnP. They don't get Intimidate, and likely never will, because that's the way it is in PnP. That being the case, Diplomacy ought to be something that has a use for Paladins.

The notion of letting Diplomacy be used as a taunt/detaunt, and having Intimidate be a better taunt, seems both reasonable and balanced to me... and a good way of making lemonade out of DDO's current lemons.

[Borror0]

my damage is impresive, i think.

I'm going to say the most of the players in this game, including the paladin players, will agree to say it's not.


so if all your going to do is tare everyone one down on this forum just to make u happy or feel important, get off the computer and go outside then. you just cause problems.

Make that sort of comment when you get to know me better, will you?

[Verdant_Force]

The notion of letting Diplomacy be used as a taunt/detaunt, and having Intimidate be a better taunt, seems both reasonable and balanced to me... and a good way of making lemonade out of DDO's current lemons.

When God gives you lemons...you FIND A NEW GOD!!! (from a hilarious video about a fake product called powerthirst: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noB4EfpdaQE

haha just thought i'd brighten the mood here; 'fraid this might escalate...

[Rune_Darkfire]

yeah i guess i am saying you cant build a pally, hey man i did not rip you donw so what is this about, i stated my opionion not a fact, i guess for you i will clerify this for now on, did not mean to step on your little toes there. my damage is impresive, i think. doing min 150-250 a hit with duel weilding. and yes with the pally enhancemnt i double my threat with each hit. and a pally cna tank and hold the agro, i am currently starting a new pally with high itmidate. and what are you talking about my damage is slow, i get the same swing rate as a barb or fighter, with or with out haste, what a barb may do alittle more damage due to a higher str, but i cna heal my self, and buff my self on a more consitant rate than a barb. so if all your going to do is tare everyone one down on this forum just to make u happy or feel important, get off the computer and go outside then. you just cause problems.

I never post, but I just had to this one time to say this : you are my hero.

Cheers...
-End.

[Turial]

Honestly the state of the Paladin is at an impasse.

On the one hand the devs state that the paladin is a defensive class with synergy existing between divine sacrifice and bodyfeeder, on another hand some players think recent changes to smites make them a little higher on the DPS ladder, and on yet a third hand is a group that thinks the class is weak due to not filling its assigned roles (defensive class, DPS) nearly as well as other classes can (barbarian, ranger, monk).

There is a lot of potential in the paladin class which can be unlocked to a point via good builds and excellent players but it needs some help to reach the same level of achieved potential as other classes. Lots of things have been suggested but little feedback has reached the player base so we have to play the waiting game.

Trubine really just needs to convert DDO's paladins to have the option to follow either tank or dps paths effectively and that would fix a lot of issues.

[Borror0]

Turial, very nice post.

[Dawnblade]

Ok, I'll restate: 70 Intimidate is totally overkill, however, that change would allow paladins to be the best at Intimidate with a very small investment.

Ok, well. Back to the drawing board then.



It's a bad idea. It places the paladin on a different scale than other classes and makes it a pain in the butt to balance, amongst other things.

As far as I'm concerned, every class is on it's own scale. Each class has different skill points along with their own sets of special abilities.


How would that force anyone to attack you?

Because these things are like saying "bring it on", "give me your best shot", "tell your momma I say hi", etc. These things are a power challenge. They mean "I'm stronger than you!". This invites attacks.

Diplomacy is an attempt to talk your way out of things or into reaching a favorable agreement to both sides; it's getting everyone on the same page. To me, it would be an easy way out that would only make sense for the practicality. But I guess I would be willing to take that over nothing.




That's as false as saying all a rogue is good for is disabling traps.

Not sure what you are trying to imply here. This is the definition of diplomacy according to the Merriam-Webster dictionary:

Main Entry: di·plo·ma·cy
Function:noun
Date: 1796
1 : the art and practice of conducting negotiations between nations
2 : skill in handling affairs without arousing hostility



Current max AC + Cha = higher AC than current max. Clearer?

Not really. How is that a problem? You said paladin's AC is not high enough without some serious time investiment to get gear. This would increase the AC without that gear allowing your everyday paladin to obtain enough AC to be efficient. If you are worried about stacking, make it a specific non stacking AC bonus (insight, deflection, what have you)


How would an enhancement placed at a level other than 20 reduce the effect of multiclassing one level of rogue?

Than perhaps we got to look into taking a level of rogue. Maybe it should not be so beneficial.


It's not the labeling doen on the class by the players that is the problem, but by the developers.

We are going to have to agree to disagree here. To me, most of the bad labeling is created by the players. If the devs wanted to label classes so bad, multiclassing wouldn't be allowed.


yeah i guess i am saying you cant build a pally, hey man i did not rip you donw so what is this about, i stated my opionion not a fact, i guess for you i will clerify this for now on, did not mean to step on your little toes there. my damage is impresive, i think. doing min 150-250 a hit with duel weilding. and yes with the pally enhancemnt i double my threat with each hit. and a pally cna tank and hold the agro, i am currently starting a new pally with high itmidate. and what are you talking about my damage is slow, i get the same swing rate as a barb or fighter, with or with out haste, what a barb may do alittle more damage due to a higher str, but i cna heal my self, and buff my self on a more consitant rate than a barb. so if all your going to do is tare everyone one down on this forum just to make u happy or feel important, get off the computer and go outside then. you just cause problems.

Chill out man :)

I want to hear from people who think paladins are ok too. I didn't start this thread to say paladins suck. I created to try to find out where we stand right now and where we will be going in the future. Let us know how your hight intimidate paladin is going.


The big advantage of this, as Borror0 has indicated, is that Paladins get Diplomacy, and likely always will, because that's the way it is in PnP. They don't get Intimidate, and likely never will, because that's the way it is in PnP. That being the case, Diplomacy ought to be something that has a use for Paladins.

The notion of letting Diplomacy be used as a taunt/detaunt, and having Intimidate be a better taunt, seems both reasonable and balanced to me... and a good way of making lemonade out of DDO's current lemons.

I understand it's the easiest and perhaps the most practical solution. But as I mentioned, it doesn't make much sense linguisticly (is that a word?) that diplomacy would be used to initiate conflict.


Honestly the state of the Paladin is at an impasse.

On the one hand the devs state that the paladin is a defensive class with synergy existing between divine sacrifice and bodyfeeder, on another hand some players think recent changes to smites make them a little higher on the DPS ladder, and on yet a third hand is a group that thinks the class is weak due to not filling its assigned roles (defensive class, DPS) nearly as well as other classes can (barbarian, ranger, monk).

There is a lot of potential in the paladin class which can be unlocked to a point via good builds and excellent players but it needs some help to reach the same level of achieved potential as other classes. Lots of things have been suggested but little feedback has reached the player base so we have to play the waiting game.

Trubine really just needs to convert DDO's paladins to have the option to follow either tank or dps paths effectively and that would fix a lot of issues.

We can only try to help :).

How would you suggest that we divine the paladin tree into tank or dps? Give us some of your ideas

[Turial]

...
....
How would you suggest that we divine the paladin tree into tank or dps? Give us some of your ideas

If you look at each of the classes in the game you will notice that each class gets specific access to exclusive abilities that can only be obtained via taking levels in that class.
Fighter: Lots of feats, weapon focus and specialization lines, armor mastery
Barbarian: DR and rage ability
Rogue: Sneak attack and trapsmithing/lockpicking
Ranger: FE damage bonus and tempest
Monk: Wis AC boost and centered stat boosting abilities
Wiz/Sorc: High level arcane spells
Cleric: High level divine spell and healing powers
Bard: Powerful undispellable group buffs (bards were designed for group buffing) and overall decent casting/cc power

And that leaves us with the paladin which only gives smites as an exclusive power. The paladin aura extends its benefit to everyone within range. And this brings us to the issue at hand.

1) Tanking
a) AC
The paladin has a hard time getting higher AC values then a similarly equipped fighter (especially if the fighter is standing next to him) because the Bulwark of good AC buff affects everyone in the paladin aura range. Thus the fighter (if tank specced) will have anywhere from +3 to +5 AC on the paladin due to Armor Mastery. The same goes for when a paladin stands next to a monk or ranger built for AC (ranger will likely only be +3 vs some enemies but those enemies are very frequent in number).

Lets face it if your mere presence makes others have more AC then you then its harder for you to tank as you must give up more to beat their AC and have the same amount of protection. So what I propose is having the paladins Bulwark of good only affect the paladin that has invested the AP into achieving it. This will make paladins a more popular 1-3 splash class for sure but it does give a reason to take them to cap, more exclusive AC.

A change like this to the paladin aura will have some changes to the global world as well. 1. Monsters will have a lower max ac that they have to hit and the to-hit values can be swung a little lower (good for all classes). 2. It makes paladins a more defensive class; only dwarven fighters will be able to get the same amount of exclusive AC from armor mastery as paladins gain from their exclusive bulwark of good aura bonus. 3. It slightly off-sets the fact that paladins will have to either spend a feat for tower shield pro or splash a level of fighter to gain access to the best defensive shields.

b) Aggression or hate (call it what you will, its how tanks do their jobs)
A defensive tank in many games has a subset of skills and abilities that allow them to generate more hate then is typically generated through damage alone. Currently DDO has 4-ish ways to do that;

1) intimidate: This is the grand daddy of them all. With a successful intimidate check the tank has full control over the mob (ie they attack only him). Bad news, for paladins its not a class skill which means they have to splash levels of fighter or rogue to get it, fighter being the preferred due to free tower shield feat. Either way a paladin won't be able to muster up the same power in an intimidate that a fighter can due to fighters getting maximum ranks and enhancements to boost the skill.

2) Warforged Brute Fighting: Next to intimidate this enhancement line is a great idea for aggro control. Fully specced it gives a warforged aggro = damage delt + 25% damage delt at all times with no activation required (this is a powerful fact about brute fighting, No Activation = passive boost).

3) Incite gear: This is a very rare gear option that functions exactly like the warforged brute fighting in that it "increases" the amount of damage you have dealt for purposes of determining how much aggro you have. Currently only available on the maul of malice (shadow crypt) and as part of the Levik's set bonus, 20% additional hate each. Out of the two the Levik's set bonus is best for a tank looking to hold aggro via damage. I would like to see more inciting gear or a ritual that would let players add up to 20% incite on weapons or armor (similar to how command armor give a - penalty to hide, incite armor would make aggro generation easier).

4) Paladin Divine Righteousness: This enhancement is so close to being amazing it hurts to look at it. Currently it gives +50% hate generated by melee attacks for a period of 60 seconds at the cost of a turn undead use (didn't mention this as a paladin ability because few people try to use it for turning undead and more ideas will come later for it). I propose that this ability be made passive and have a tiered breakdown starting at say 10% and ending at x%. I don't know how far behind on the damage curve paladins are when compared to barbarians and rangers vs FE but it would be balanced so that paladins focusing on a single creature could keep its aggro for a period of time. Others may have to back down and let the paladin generate more aggro at times which is not a bad thing as more and more end game raids are having additional mobs that need to be killed. Perfect time for the paladin to focus on sally and gain more aggro to keep her locked down.

Side note:To replace divine righteousness as an enhancement to use turn undead uses, I propose that paladins get full access to the divine healing line. DOT heals are very defensive abilities and would fit well with a paladins role as a defensive warrior.

c) Damage Mitigation
Damage mitigation comes in a few forms; AC we already covered, Buffs (will mainly come from outside sources), and DR. Barbarians rule the class based DR and I'm not going to touch that with a 10-foot pole. As far as damage mitigation goes paladins have resist energy, protection from energy, and *cough* angel skin. Angelskin is interesting from the standpoint of a buff and DR but will likely be overtaken by stoneskin in almost all cases, mainly due to short duration. I propose that angelskin be given a 1 min/level duration boost that way it will last long enough to cover the times in between stoneskin applications.

These are a few of my thoughts on paladins, tanking, and what may or may not need to be changed. Smites and tanking to come later as well as a DPS/avenger discussion.

[Aesop]

Divine Feats: these are great for Clerics and Paladins alike. As enhancements they are ok but as Feats they are better in my opinion (Highlighted my favorite in red though Disciple of the Sun is more for my Cleric :D)

Disciple of the Sun Ability to turn or rebuke undead, must be GOOD aligned
Spend an extra turn attempt to destroy undead instead of turning them

Divine Accuracy Ability to turn or rebuke undead
Ignore miss chance on Incorporeal Mobs for a short time

Divine Alacrity Ability to turn or rebuke undead,
Spend turn/rebuke attempt gain 10&#37;/20%/30% striding for turning level in minutes

Divine Armor Divine caster level 5th, ability to turn or rebuke undead
Expend turn/rebuke attempt to gain damage reduction 5/-

Divine Might Str 13, Power Attack, turn or rebuke undead ability
Add Cha bonus to weapon damage for 10 sec (edit: or 10 sec +2sec per Turning Level)

Divine Resistance Turn or rebuke undead ability, Divine Cleansing
Gain resistance to cold 5, electricity 5, and fire 5

Divine Shield Turn or rebuke undead ability, proficiency with shield
Add Cha bonus as sacred bonus to shield's defense (edit: Alternatively you could have this just be a Sacred Bonus to AC for a relatively short duration... say Haste Duration...based on Turning level)

Divine Vigor Turn or rebuke undead ability
Increase base speed by 10 feet, gain +2 hp per level

Glorious Weapons Ability to turn or rebuke undead
Allies' weapons gain an alignment for overcoming damage reduction

Sacred Healing Heal 8 ranks, ability to turn/rebuke undead
Allies gain fast healing 3 for a short time

Sacred Purification ability to turn undead
Expend turn attempt to heal living and harm undead


Sacred Vitality Ability to turn undead
Gain immunity to ability damage, ability drain, and energy drain

Spurn Death's Touch Ability to turn undead
Heal ability damage, paralysis, negative level




In addition to this you need better pally spells


first and foremost is Righteous Fury... Righteous Aura ain't bad either

RIGHTEOUS AURA
Abjuration [Good, Light]
Level: Paladin 4
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 hour/level
You invoke the powers of good and law, and
in response to your pleas, you glow with the
golden radiance of the sun.
You are bathed in an unearthly glow for
the duration of the spell, as if a daylight
spell (PH 216) had been cast on you. You
get a +4 sacred bonus to Charisma.
If you die, your body is converted
into an explosive blast of energy in a
20-foot-radius burst centered where
you fell, dealing 2d6 points of damage
per caster level (maximum 20d6) to all
evil creatures in the burst’s area. Good
creatures in the area are healed by the
same amount, and undead take double
this damage. Spell resistance cannot
prevent this damage, but a successful
Reflex save reduces it to half. Your
body is disintegrated, so you cannot
be raised with a raise dead spell. Spells
that do not require an intact body, such
as true resurrection, can be used to bring
you back to life as normal.


RIGHTEOUS FURY
Transmutation
Level: Paladin 3
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 minute/level
You pull a holy aura about you that glows
a golden red.
Summoning the power of your deity,
you charge yourself with positive
energy. This gives you 5 temporary
hit points per caster level (maximum
50) and a +4 sacred bonus to Strength.
These temporary hit points last for up
to 1 hour.



yeah that would about cover it ...

[Alcides]

I think it's already too late for them to ungimp paladins. But the Righteous Aura and Righteous Fury would be a big boon to the characters with a lot of paladin levels. Also I think Divine Shield is justified now that we are seeing TWF builds getting AC above 75. Although I thought the paladin Aura is a sacred bonus to AC I could be wrong.

[Turial]

...
These are a few of my thoughts on paladins, tanking, and what may or may not need to be changed. Smites and tanking to come later as well as a DPS/avenger discussion.

d) Smites, LOH, and tanking for the Paladin
1) Smites
As we know a smite takes the paladin cha as a bonus to-hit and adds paladin levels to damage. If a paladin has taken the divine righteousness enhancement line I described above the following would change about a paladins smite; The amount of damage dealt by a smite, for purposes of determining aggro, would be affected by a multiplier based on what tier of divine righteousness the paladin had taken. This in effect makes the act of a paladin smiting a creature that much more of a threat because the creature feels the power of the paladins deity behind the swing and would want to eliminate the paladin that much more. Regeneration of smites remains the same.

2) Lay On Hands
I propose that lay on hands be broken up into two forms; a) current form which is a single heal type shot and b) a 1-2 min DOT effect. The DOT LOH would be an enhancement that is gained at a high level and represents the paladins reward for remaining the holy warrior of their god/cause. So in effect the paladin that took this would then have two types of hot keys that would use up a LOH use, normal and DOT. The DOT would be a very effective tanking type LOH as a paladin could apply the LOH buff to himself or another player and essentially keep them topped off for hp for the length of the buff.

II) DPS
DPS and paladins are an interesting mix. For more consistent DPS you want a high starting str which means you will invariably end up with a lower CHA, ie no paladins start with max cha in DDO, or rather they are very few in number because they will be much less likely to hit anything.

a) Two existing attack lines
1) Divine Sacrifice
Currently costs you 10 hp and 1 sp to swing and provides extra damage and critical multiplier. Note: this does not have synergy with bodyfeeder. To have synergy with bodyfeeder this attack would have to increase the critical range of the weapon and as multipliers have little to do with the workings of bodyfeeder there is no more synergy here with it then any other attack, especially as bodyfeeder gives temporary hp and not a healing effect.

2) Exalted Smite
Provides 2x cha bonus to attack when using smites, additional damage multipliers, increased threat range, and quicker cool down on your smites.

3) Changes to each line
Each of the two lines provide no passive bonuses to the paladins that take them which means a paladin must click on individual icons to execute attacks rather then swinging naturally like other DPS classes. I propose that each of the two lines gain some passive benefits that focus on core paladin tenets.

Divine Sacrifice should give a +1 sacred bonus to hit and damage for each tier that is taken at the cost of -1 AC. The Paladin is better able to attack and damage hit foes but sacrifices some of his ability to defend himself in the process, religious zeal type of thing.

Exalted smite should do two things on a passive scale: i) allow a portion of the paladins cha bonus to passively apply to-hit based on the number of tiers they have taken ( 25%, 50%, 75%, and 100%, if there are 4 total tiers) and decrease the time required to regenerate new smites.

b) Bulwarks
Above I had recommended changing how bulwark of good worked so that it only applied its bonus to the paladin who invested the AP in the line rather then all people in the aura. In addition bulwark of good should be changed to bulwark of defense. Parallel to bulwark of defense should be Bulwark of zealous fury (taking one of these lines should lock you out from taking any from the other).

Bulwark of zealous fury allows a paladin to apply a portion of their cha bonus to their damage.

Final thoughts:
Obviously what I have proposed can't be fully integrated as stated otherwise paladins would likely become the new kings of DPS as powergamers would now be applying both str and cha to their to-hit and damage which could pass rangers, rogues, and barbarians. Some one would have to crunch the numbers for me, cause I'm lazy and bad at math.

I hope the devs and some of you will see things that applied correctly would allow paladins to correctly live up to their potential as a defensive or offensive melee.

[Dawnblade]

1) Tanking
a) AC
The paladin has a hard time getting higher AC values then a similarly equipped fighter (especially if the fighter is standing next to him) because the Bulwark of good AC buff affects everyone in the paladin aura range. Thus the fighter (if tank specced) will have anywhere from +3 to +5 AC on the paladin due to Armor Mastery. The same goes for when a paladin stands next to a monk or ranger built for AC (ranger will likely only be +3 vs some enemies but those enemies are very frequent in number).

Lets face it if your mere presence makes others have more AC then you then its harder for you to tank as you must give up more to beat their AC and have the same amount of protection. So what I propose is having the paladins Bulwark of good only affect the paladin that has invested the AP into achieving it. This will make paladins a more popular 1-3 splash class for sure but it does give a reason to take them to cap, more exclusive AC.

A change like this to the paladin aura will have some changes to the global world as well. 1. Monsters will have a lower max ac that they have to hit and the to-hit values can be swung a little lower (good for all classes). 2. It makes paladins a more defensive class; only dwarven fighters will be able to get the same amount of exclusive AC from armor mastery as paladins gain from their exclusive bulwark of good aura bonus. 3. It slightly off-sets the fact that paladins will have to either spend a feat for tower shield pro or splash a level of fighter to gain access to the best defensive shields.

I don't know if I would go with totally eliminating the group buff aspect of the aura. How about keeping the group buff but giving the paladin an increased or secondary effect for each member affected by the aura. Without thinking about number, this could be something like stackable DR-1 per two members affected or something; or it could be AC +1 for each 2 members or something of the sort. But than it would kind of kill the "global mob change" you mentioned. So I do know. I understand your reasoning, but I'm not sure if taking something away and giving nothing back would make people happy.


b) Aggression or hate (call it what you will, its how tanks do their jobs)
A defensive tank in many games has a subset of skills and abilities that allow them to generate more hate then is typically generated through damage alone. Currently DDO has 4-ish ways to do that;

1) intimidate: This is the grand daddy of them all. With a successful intimidate check the tank has full control over the mob (ie they attack only him). Bad news, for paladins its not a class skill which means they have to splash levels of fighter or rogue to get it, fighter being the preferred due to free tower shield feat. Either way a paladin won't be able to muster up the same power in an intimidate that a fighter can due to fighters getting maximum ranks and enhancements to boost the skill.

2) Warforged Brute Fighting: Next to intimidate this enhancement line is a great idea for aggro control. Fully specced it gives a warforged aggro = damage delt + 25% damage delt at all times with no activation required (this is a powerful fact about brute fighting, No Activation = passive boost).

3) Incite gear: This is a very rare gear option that functions exactly like the warforged brute fighting in that it "increases" the amount of damage you have dealt for purposes of determining how much aggro you have. Currently only available on the maul of malice (shadow crypt) and as part of the Levik's set bonus, 20% additional hate each. Out of the two the Levik's set bonus is best for a tank looking to hold aggro via damage. I would like to see more inciting gear or a ritual that would let players add up to 20% incite on weapons or armor (similar to how command armor give a - penalty to hide, incite armor would make aggro generation easier).

4) Paladin Divine Righteousness: This enhancement is so close to being amazing it hurts to look at it. Currently it gives +50% hate generated by melee attacks for a period of 60 seconds at the cost of a turn undead use (didn't mention this as a paladin ability because few people try to use it for turning undead and more ideas will come later for it). I propose that this ability be made passive and have a tiered breakdown starting at say 10% and ending at x%. I don't know how far behind on the damage curve paladins are when compared to barbarians and rangers vs FE but it would be balanced so that paladins focusing on a single creature could keep its aggro for a period of time. Others may have to back down and let the paladin generate more aggro at times which is not a bad thing as more and more end game raids are having additional mobs that need to be killed. Perfect time for the paladin to focus on sally and gain more aggro to keep her locked down.

Side note:To replace divine righteousness as an enhancement to use turn undead uses, I propose that paladins get full access to the divine healing line. DOT heals are very defensive abilities and would fit well with a paladins role as a defensive warrior.

My only concern with it being a passive is that in cases where the paladin is not the primary tank, there would be no way to turn it off. This would interfere with the main tanks job. How about making it a toggle?


c) Damage Mitigation
Damage mitigation comes in a few forms; AC we already covered, Buffs (will mainly come from outside sources), and DR. Barbarians rule the class based DR and I'm not going to touch that with a 10-foot pole. As far as damage mitigation goes paladins have resist energy, protection from energy, and *cough* angel skin. Angelskin is interesting from the standpoint of a buff and DR but will likely be overtaken by stoneskin in almost all cases, mainly due to short duration. I propose that angelskin be given a 1 min/level duration boost that way it will last long enough to cover the times in between stoneskin applications.


I agree that angelskin's duration could be improved a bit. I have never used because of it's short duration for what it gives. I could see a 1m duration for maybe a DR of at least 10, but I can't justify spending constant SP to get the little DR angelskin gives. So either increase the duration or the effect?

[Mithran]

My main has a splash of Rogue for Evasion and Skills and a splash of Fighter for the extra Feats because I wanted Greater Two Weapon Fighting and Spring Attack. Having said that, I'll allow as the reason I rolled her was because of how frustrated I had been with my first full Paladin. Now though, I regret having taken the two levels of Fighter because she could now have had Exalted Smite 3. Well, maybe I don't regret it, but the improvements to Smite make me wish I could crit with a Smite for more than a few hundred. Even so, her A/C is pretty good, as a GTWF she does good damage, and the Evasion is nice. With a high UMD, she can buff herself with all the many requests Fighters are obliged to make of the various casters in the group, and with Divine Righteousness, she holds aggro well. She's a lot more self-sufficient than Fighters or Barbarians, but her Health is not quite where it should be. Having said all this, any build in this game will excel at what your emphasis is, and will fall short in some other areas.

For me, the worst difficulty for my paladin is the prejudice about the class from so many in the game. Shroud raids are looking for either a barbarian or a fighter, and I'll sometimes get the new player (who doesn't know me) who will ask who's tanking the Reaver three times after I've indicated that I'm tanking.

[Turial]

It isnt about making others happy Dawn, its about improving the paladins aspect as a tank. Having it tied to a bonus based on number of players in the group is not a good solution as the DR or AC effect would make those two aspects even less useful for everyone else.

If you take the paladin aura away from others you are improving the AC for everyone as the maximum AC drops by 5 which is what mobs are set up to hit on a very consistent basis.

I would be fine with the divine righteousness being a toggle but the whole idea is to make this form of the paladin into the main tank.

On angel skin I would be for duration rather then an increase in DR.

[Mapa]

It isnt about making others happy Dawn, its about improving the paladins aspect as a tank. Having it tied to a bonus based on number of players in the group is not a good solution as the DR or AC effect would make those two aspects even less useful for everyone else.

If you take the paladin aura away from others you are improving the AC for everyone as the maximum AC drops by 5 which is what mobs are set up to hit on a very consistent basis.


In your opinion, would it be bad for Bulwark to give the same aura AC bonus it does now but give the paladin an extra boost. For example, you give the party a 1 ac boost and you get 2 to yours, at 2 you get 4, and at 3 you get 6. Feel happy to play with the numbers for the sake of balance but I feel the concept is solid. No conditions or questions just a straight up bonus.

[sephiroth1084]

I'm not going to read through the whole thread, because from what I've seen so far, it appears to be mostly the same arguments that keep going around on the boards all the time.

My feeling is that, yes, paladins should be balanced well enough that going pure paladin for 16 (or 20) levels is worth doing for more than just flavor, but I don't see the fact that they aren't as being such a tremendous hardship. In pen and paper, paladins lost effectiveness even earlier than they do in DDO: access to whatever magic items you want makes up for many of the problems that assail paladins normally.

Sure, straight paladins are pretty mediocre generally, but they combine REALLY well with many other classes, even as the main upon which something else is splashed (2 or 4 fighter, 1-3 rogue for example). I don't know about everyone else, but in PnP nearly every class benefited from some multiclassing unless they were full casters.

One big issue is that paladins don't have any prestige class(es) to go into, like they did in PnP. THAT was where more of their power came from anyway. Something that gives additional defensive benefits and feats (Pious Templar, Knight Defender, Defender of Sealtiel, Dwarven Defender, Cavalier), more/cooler smites (First of Raziel), or simulated being a paladin (Paladin as a prestige class from Unearthed Arcana).

I don't know why everyone keeps reminiscing about awesome PnP paladins. I play paladins almost exclusively in PnP and frequently felt outclassed. The OP mentioned barbarians not being perma-raged in PnP, but D&D 3.5 assumes 4 combats/day which means that by mid-levels barbarians can rage every combat for ~6-10 rounds, easily. VERY few fights last that long unless you are missing a caster or are fighting a HORDE of monsters. And even in those situations such a long combat was fairly rare. Compare raging for 4 encounters to being able to smite 4 times in a day. That's, at most, an extra 80 damage in a day. More if combined with Power Attack since you can trade the gained attack bonus for the damage without too much worry. Not terribly impressive, and too few feats available to get into any of the great combos. Divine Might is good, but that still doesn't amount to much of an increase in PnP.

It should be noted that I primarily played sword-and-board paladins, but much of this still held true for 2-handers. DDO has (over time) fixed many of the problems PnP paladins had with them, though certainly other issues have come around due to the changes they've made to other classes, omission of key paladin enhancers (PrCs, divine feats, SC spells) and the issues that occur when moving from a turn-based game to a real-time arena without properly adjusting for those differences.

Truthfully, I feel that DDO should be striving for something close to this:http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=761045

OneWinged4ngel's rebalanced paladin is TONS more fun to play than a standard PHB dude, and is better balanced against many of the other classes. As it stands, it looks like DDO HAS absorbed some of the material in here, such as regenerating smites. Truthfully, I think a shorter regen time would be ok. Maybe a minute/smite, or change it to all smites come back every 2 minutes, to sort of simulate the per encounter idea.

Someone mentioned paladin's naturally higher Cha making up for not having Intimidate. Well, look at the numbers--16 ranks, 8 Cha, +6 item = 18, while 8 ranks, 14 Cha (though many builds start with only 12), +6 Cha, +1 tome, +3 Paladin Cha enhancements = 15. So, much more invested, and still falling short. Plus, few enough skill points to increase that and anything else.

Honestly, I wish Turbine would give paladins more to look forward to after level X (whether 3, 4, 6, or 12), but also would like more people to be open to splashing that 1-4 levels of fighter or rogue. The only thing I can think of that they might add that would even come close to out-weighing the benefits of a 4 lvl splash of fighter is the final "Don't DIe" ability from the Rebalanced Paladin, and, honestly, Fighter Haste II, 3 feats, Intimidate as a class skill, Jump as a class Skill, 2 Intimidate enhancements, 1 Str enhancement, Armor Mastery, Tower Shield Mastery, Fighter Tactics II and tower shield proficiency are worth more in DDO than the 10 levels of a prestige class in PnP.

[Turial]

In your opinion, would it be bad for Bulwark to give the same aura AC bonus it does now but give the paladin an extra boost. For example, you give the party a 1 ac boost and you get 2 to yours, at 2 you get 4, and at 3 you get 6. Feel happy to play with the numbers for the sake of balance but I feel the concept is solid. No conditions or questions just a straight up bonus.

Crossing the streams bad.

I know its a tired litany but we don't need more AC, what we need is a balancing of exclusive AC bonuses between the classes so that the range of AC's that can be obtained is tighter so that AC means something again. I am also in support of removing Ranger FE AC bonus lines and changing armor mastery in some way (either the stacking or allowing a diversity of it).

The elite orthons in the shroud are set up to hit AC X (cant remember it off hand but Borror0 could likely post it, 57 or something) on a roll of a 7 or higher. This means that you need a 70 or higher to have 95% protection from their attacks and 60 AC to have 50% protection from their attacks.

Fighters with armor mastery will always have a better ac then the paladin they are standing next to (when similarly geared, which they would be if going for AC). In many cases the fighter will have 5 more AC then the paladin, due to armor mastery. Same goes for most other ac classes when standing next to the paladin because they have exclusive AC sources while the paladin shares his. Take that away and the fighter and paladin are on more even footing, AC wise, which would allow for the to-hit values for mobs to be tweeked down (large global changes like this have happened in the past).

If Paladins experienced a double boost from their aura then the high water mark for AC that mobs need to hit on a 7 or higher would move up by 5, in my example from 57 to 62 which means you need 75 AC or higher to be 95% protected from their attacks (a true tank needs that level of protection). 75 AC or higher is reachable on an armored class but it is extreamly difficult. For unarmored classes though it is a bit easier....classes that lack aggro techniques. It also means that ETAC is even less useful because mobs are geared for that higher AC and the new ETAC for more classes would fall even shorter.

[Mapa]

Turial, I am not trying to start an argument, but sorry if I do. I am trying to understand a few points in your thought process

Ok, for the sake of argument, let us assume a level 16 fighter and a level 16 paladin with +5 mithril plate, Madstone shields, Chaosguards, etc., are standing next to each other. The fighter can have the higher AC due to the Armor Mastery enhancement line, if they took it. All I am trying to say is give the paladin an equivalent personal boost in the Bulwark line or make it self only. The argument that it will escalate the to hits for example of orthons in the Vale does not apply in this case because we are not increasing the max AC they will face. The max AC the orthons will have to overcome has not changed. We have only increased the number of people that can attain it. I don’t want paladins pigeonholed as AC tanks but allowing paladins and fighters to achieve the same max AC, in different ways, will start the process of balancing the two classes and make a pure paladin as viable an option as a pure fighter at higher levels.

Am I just dense? I think we want the same thing. The only question is do we need to nerf one group or do we find a way to lift another up without causing more problems for those not otherwise involved.

[Turial]

Turial, I am not trying to start an argument, but sorry if I do. I am trying to understand a few points in your thought process

Ok, for the sake of argument, let us assume a level 16 fighter and a level 16 paladin with +5 mithril plate, Madstone shields, Chaosguards, etc., are standing next to each other. The fighter can have the higher AC due to the Armor Mastery enhancement line, if they took it. All I am trying to say is give the paladin an equivalent personal boost in the Bulwark line or make it self only. The argument that it will escalate the to hits for example of orthons in the Vale does not apply in this case because we are not increasing the max AC they will face. The max AC the orthons will have to overcome has not changed. We have only increased the number of people that can attain it. I don’t want paladins pigeonholed as AC tanks but allowing paladins and fighters to achieve the same max AC, in different ways, will start the process of balancing the two classes and make a pure paladin as viable an option as a pure fighter at higher levels.

Am I just dense? I think we want the same thing. The only question is do we need to nerf one group or do we find a way to lift another up without causing more problems for those not otherwise involved.

Oh I know your not trying to start an argument and neither am I.

You and I both want the same thing but we are moving in different directions to do it. Giving a paladin double aura AC would work in a case like what you stated. The issue is in cases where the paladin isnt in the group and the game is still expecting to have to hit an AC of fighter + 5 from paladin buff. This changes the group dynamics for an AC tank as they no longer require both a bard and a full paladin to be at peak defense.

That is why I think a nerf of the aura to non-paladins is a good thing. In pnp the aura doesnt do all the fun things it does here.

If you read down a few posts you will see what I think could be done to help paladins become DPS builds vs tanks. MMmmm paladin only DPS aura *drooling noises*.

[SteeleTrueheart]

MMmmm paladin only DPS aura *drooling noises*.


slobber slobber

or just implement Righteous Fury spell

[sephiroth1084]

Oh I know your not trying to start an argument and neither am I.


That is why I think a nerf of the aura to non-paladins is a good thing. In pnp the aura doesnt do all the fun things it does here.



I don't think taking away one of their best features (that of being a support class) is a good idea. If the aura only benefits the paladin, what point is there in taking a paladin along instead of a fighter? Sure, the paly is a bit harder to kill, but the fighter will have the same AC, yet hit harder, and will have intimidate.

Truthfully, I'd like some swappable aura enhancements added in. Instead of a Concentration aura always on, why not make a few enhancement lines for something like: +3/6/9 Concentration, +1/2/3 attack, +6/8/10 vs. fear, fast healing 5 hp/10/15 (or 10hp /20/30)/6 seconds, etc...

Maybe move away from strict numerical increases, but make each aura worth taking, and have them each toggle on/off where only one can be up at a time. Some paladins will only ever bother taking one, while others might take 2 or 3. Make them something different than what a bard or cleric will be doing. Heck, maybe give each a duration of something like 1 min./level, or 5 minutes. with a cooldown of a minutes or two to inspire folks to take more than one aura.

[Alcides]

Honestly, I wish Turbine would give paladins more to look forward to after level X (whether 3, 4, 6, or 12), but also would like more people to be open to splashing that 1-4 levels of fighter or rogue. The only thing I can think of that they might add that would even come close to out-weighing the benefits of a 4 lvl splash of fighter is the final "Don't DIe" ability from the Rebalanced Paladin, and, honestly, Fighter Haste II, 3 feats, Intimidate as a class skill, Jump as a class Skill, 2 Intimidate enhancements, 1 Str enhancement, Armor Mastery, Tower Shield Mastery, Fighter Tactics II and tower shield proficiency are worth more in DDO than the 10 levels of a prestige class in PnP.

Proposing that paladins should have to multiclass is preposterous. If I'm class X and I have to multiclass Y just to make general desireable aspects about class X better, then the value of class X is further diminished. Paladins have plenty of untapped abilities in PnP that would more than make up for any set backs to the class. There's plenty of Divine Feats(none of which have been implemented) which paladins could benefit greatly from since I don't know many high level paladins that use turn undead attempts other than for divine righteousness (Divine Might and Divine Shield). Also there's plenty of spells that would greatly increase a high level paladins bite. Noteworthy mentions include but are not unlimited to Axiomatic Storm, Divine Presence, Holy Storm, Righteous Aura, Righteous Fury, and Shield of Warding. A high level paladin's combat prowess comes from all their spells and abilities being stacked together...They don't get one super mega buff like a barbarian does. Until the devs realize this pure paladins will be remain sub-par.

[Turial]

I don't think taking away one of their best features (that of being a support class) is a good idea. If the aura only benefits the paladin, what point is there in taking a paladin along instead of a fighter? Sure, the paly is a bit harder to kill, but the fighter will have the same AC, yet hit harder, and will have intimidate.

Truthfully, I'd like some swappable aura enhancements added in. Instead of a Concentration aura always on, why not make a few enhancement lines for something like: +3/6/9 Concentration, +1/2/3 attack, +6/8/10 vs. fear, fast healing 5 hp/10/15 (or 10hp /20/30)/6 seconds, etc...

Maybe move away from strict numerical increases, but make each aura worth taking, and have them each toggle on/off where only one can be up at a time. Some paladins will only ever bother taking one, while others might take 2 or 3. Make them something different than what a bard or cleric will be doing. Heck, maybe give each a duration of something like 1 min./level, or 5 minutes. with a cooldown of a minutes or two to inspire folks to take more than one aura.

Except in most groups only 1 or 2 players are really benafiting from the paladin AC aura and in many cases its the other cases that benafit more. Mainly because their exclusive AC bonuses can not be taken by paladins. I wonder how often people bring paladins along for the aura buffs? I bring who ever shows up first and my spaztastic play style typically means I am self buffing and hasting all the time, also means I never stay neer a paladin long enough for the aura buffs to really matter. Thats just me though.

I do like the idea of swapable paladin auras ( check out the WOTC paladin boards for a revised paladin build with all sorts of nice aura ideas). If the devs went with a fast healing aura it would likely apply something similar to a DH buff. Fast healing though would be really powerful. Using good aggro management I have seen rogues stay at full health through quests thanks to the eat jerky effect. You would have to hit a paladin really hard to kill them as the aura would bring them back pretty quick. Still though a neat thing to look into.

[sephiroth1084]

Proposing that paladins should have to multiclass is preposterous. If I'm class X and I have to multiclass Y just to make general desireable aspects about class X better, then the value of class X is further diminished. Paladins have plenty of untapped abilities in PnP that would more than make up for any set backs to the class. There's plenty of Divine Feats(none of which have been implemented) which paladins could benefit greatly from since I don't know many high level paladins that use turn undead attempts other than for divine righteousness (Divine Might and Divine Shield). Also there's plenty of spells that would greatly increase a high level paladins bite. Noteworthy mentions include but are not unlimited to Axiomatic Storm, Divine Presence, Holy Storm, Righteous Aura, Righteous Fury, and Shield of Warding. A high level paladin's combat prowess comes from all their spells and abilities being stacked together...They don't get one super mega buff like a barbarian does. Until the devs realize this pure paladins will be remain sub-par.

I did mention most of the above in my post as things I would like to see come about, but I'm kinda tired of reading dozens of posts about how paladins lack X, Y, or Z, when much of that can be obtained via multiclassing. Fighters aren't kvethcing about their crappy saves, nor are casters or rogues. They're all splashing some paladin to deal with them or sucking it up. Yeah, I would LOVE for paladins to get all the abilities they should already have (Divine feats, Spell Compendium spells...the GOOD ones, not the **** they've shown us so far, and something similar to intimidate to be grabbing aggro).

I don't know if you've been paying attention, but I cannot see the devs EVER coming to that sort of realization. Have you seen the spells they wanted to implement in Mod 8? This, AFTER everyone and their mother complaining about the "love" given in Mod 7?

[sephiroth1084]

Except in most groups only 1 or 2 players are really benafiting from the paladin AC aura and in many cases its the other cases that benafit more. Mainly because their exclusive AC bonuses can not be taken by paladins. I wonder how often people bring paladins along for the aura buffs? I bring who ever shows up first and my spaztastic play style typically means I am self buffing and hasting all the time, also means I never stay neer a paladin long enough for the aura buffs to really matter. Thats just me though.

I do like the idea of swapable paladin auras ( check out the WOTC paladin boards for a revised paladin build with all sorts of nice aura ideas). If the devs went with a fast healing aura it would likely apply something similar to a DH buff. Fast healing though would be really powerful. Using good aggro management I have seen rogues stay at full health through quests thanks to the eat jerky effect. You would have to hit a paladin really hard to kill them as the aura would bring them back pretty quick. Still though a neat thing to look into.

I put a link to the Rebalanced Paladin from the WotC boards up back in my first post to this thread.

Honestly, I'd like a bigger radius on the aura a paladin sheds to increase the likelihood of someone benefiting.

[Turial]

I put a link to the Rebalanced Paladin from the WotC boards up back in my first post to this thread.

Honestly, I'd like a bigger radius on the aura a paladin sheds to increase the likelihood of someone benefiting.

See I knew it came from somewhere. Lol. A bigger aura would be cool.

[Alcides]

I don't know if you've been paying attention, but I cannot see the devs EVER coming to that sort of realization. Have you seen the spells they wanted to implement in Mod 8? This, AFTER everyone and their mother complaining about the "love" given in Mod 7?

Yeah I have been paying attention. Which is all the more reason that I and everyone else who wants to see paladins get the attention they deserve should keep trying to reiterate the same points until we are one voice that they either have to listen to or just simply state we will never implement XYZ.

I also think fighters should be given the Weapon Mastery and Weapon Supremacy feats out of the Player's Handbook 2. Which would give pure fighters some serious bite :) Maybe even something along the lines of a Weapon Master PrC enhancement that increases crit range

[SteeleTrueheart]

They have already stated that there will be some more martial oriented feats that will help fighters mainly but also paladins.
Fighter and Paladin PrC enhancements are in the works.

Doesn't everyone get tired of saying the same things over and over. I am sure there have been these discussions 100 times already....

[Mapa]

They have already stated that there will be some more martial oriented feats that will help fighters mainly but also paladins.
Fighter and Paladin PrC enhancements are in the works.

Doesn't everyone get tired of saying the same things over and over. I am sure there have been these discussions 100 times already....


Yea, I thought I saw that mentioned in this week's WDA. ;)

[Mithran]

As I said upthread, I multiclassed my paladin with 2 Fighter and 2 Rogue for UMD and Spring Attack and GTWF. I'm really pleased with her, but the prejudice I also mentioned has a basis in reality. Most paladins aren't tanks, but mine holds aggro quite well with Divine Righteousness. Isn't the main complaint about paladins here the realization of how the classes were balanced in the books? I ask this as someone who wouldn't roll a straight Fighter or Barbarian. I love my paladins for their self-sufficiency, primarily. Their dps is nerfed, as is their health (esp. if you play, as I do, elven babes), but the immunities are sweet, and being able to give yourself resists is nice for clerics. How many barbarians and fighters have a laundry list of things they 'must' be buffed with in order to do their jobs? My main can buff herself.

[Cold_Stele]

They have already stated that there will be some more martial oriented feats that will help fighters mainly but also paladins.
Fighter and Paladin PrC enhancements are in the works.

Well here's a quote from Ask the Devs #5 posted 30th July -


All right next one is actually a couple-of-parter here by a player by the name of Jack. “Will the other classes like paladins, barbarians, fighters, wizards and sorcerers get 'Ways Of' enhancements, and which is the next class you’re working on?” Ya always gotta add that one there ‘cause that’s probably gotta be the most asked question of you guys is what’s the next class, huh?

Tharagrim: I was talking to Eladrin a little bit earlier, since he can’t be here I’m gonna go ahead and put across his answer. So, pretty much, the answer is yes. Our first work will most likely be with paladins and fighters. Later on, we intend to build our “Way Of” enhancements for wizards and sorcerers. It’s just something which is a little further down the line then say paladins or barbarians or fighters.

So from the wording of the 'will most likely be' part people better stop holding their breath waiting for this stuff to come out...