Class Granted Feat Problem

[Dawnblade]

So here is my story:
I picked two weapon fighting at character creation on my paladin. Then at level 8 I decided to pick up some ranger levels. I figured I could get TWF back to use else where and eventually get tempest.
Last night I got my second level of ranger. I didn't get offered to replace TWF. Instead ( according to a GM with whom I spoke) the ranger feat replaced the TWF feat I picked out at lvl 1, and there's no way to untrain it. Fred can't help me.

According to the GM, Lukaria will forever be gimped out of a feat. Is that really true? If so, there should definitely be some sort of warning when you get about to receive a class feat that will replace a feat you already have. It's pretty disappointing. Is this a bug of some sort of is it work as intended?

P.S.:I did a search but nothing came up, so I apologize if this is brough up every other month. But then again I don't cus it just shouldn't work like this without a warning to the player.

[Ironforge_Clan]

Unfortunately it is true. You needed to go to Fred first and switch out your TWF feat before taking your second Ranger level. I believe this is a known issue without anyway to remedy it.

[llevenbaxx]

Wow, thats kinda crappy. Ive never heard of this problem before, I will for sure be careful to have any class granted feats changed out before hand. I MC alot, Im suprised this hasnt happened to me before, it is good you brought it up here imo.

[BuzzSaw]

Fred's a Moron...

Took Arrow Deflection as my Original Class Monk Feat, At Level 14 wanted to swap it out for Combat Expertise. Which if I had been thinking back when I started would have been OK, and NOPE!

I can drop Arrow Deflection, but I cannot pick up Combat Expertise even though I should be able to by all rights because it's a class feat.

Sigh....very sad.

Like I said...Fred's a Moron
Buzz

[binnsr]

Fred's a Moron...

Took Arrow Deflection as my Original Class Monk Feat, At Level 14 wanted to swap it out for Combat Expertise. Which if I had been thinking back when I started would have been OK, and NOPE!

I can drop Arrow Deflection, but I cannot pick up Combat Expertise even though I should be able to by all rights because it's a class feat.

Sigh....very sad.

Like I said...Fred's a Moron
Buzz
The monk Class feats still need to have their pre-reqs met. Do you have a 13 Int (base+tomes+levelups)?

[Dawnblade]

I guess I'll live with the loss then. It's my first character so I don't mind making mistakes to learn the game. However, I still think that there should be a warning to players when leveling that they are about to get ripped off of a feat forever if they don't switch it out with Fred before they level. There's no reason this should happen in the first place, but at least a warning would let people know before they partially gimp their characters.

[Zenako]

The problem is that the leveling process does not really look at what came before. Note how all the info onthe summary screen (last page before you say ok) is in terms of what you have added at that level up. Added 17 HP, added 2 Spells, Added +1 to Concentration and +1 to Jump, added +1 WIS, etc. At no point does it appear the level up process really look at prior things to check for potential conflicts. It would be very nice if they could check and see if a new Class granted Feat will duplicate an existing Level Granted Feat and provide a warning on the summary screen that this is happening.

[Razvan]

Now, I am not really an expert in PnP...but isn't every player there responsible for tracking their own stuff?...I mean, feats you can and cannot take, prerequisites, etc. Why isn't every player tracking their own stuff in DDO too?... Or do we really want a confirmation button for EVERY click of the mouse and keystroke?

Sorry this happened to you OP, but you weren't able to find more of these kind posts because people are carefull about this stuff. It happened before yes, but everyone learned and moved on. To me it has always been logical to go and swap out a feat that I have already taken and that I will be getting automatically at a certain level, BEFORE reaching that level...but hey, that's just me...

[Kreaper]

Sorry this happened to you OP, but you weren't able to find more of these kind posts because people are carefull about this stuff. It happened before yes, but everyone learned and moved on. To be it has always been logical to go and swap out a feat that I have already taken and that I will be getting automatically at a certain level, BEFORE reaching that level...but hey, that's just me...


What? People are careful about posting threads regarding problems with Fred? What's the problem with posting threads about Fred issues? :rolleyes:


This has been posted on several times before. MANY people have run into problems with Fred. This AND the problem of changing feat chains. Dawnblade didn't find any posts on it because of the crappy search engine we have here.


Next time try being a little more understanding and constructive and a little less... well... you can read your own post...

[Razvan]

"carefull about this sutff" meant carefull about leveling into a class which gives you a feat for free which you already have...but whatever...


and be a little less what? logical?...

[Naso24]

Do you only have TWF, or do you have ITWF or GTWF also?

If it is the latter, it makes sense that you cannot swap out the feat, since you would first have to remove ITWF and GTWF. Of course, you could not take them again unless you use feats acquired after the free TWF is available.

If you do not have ITWF or GTWF, it is simply lame that you cannot change the feat out that you otherwise could just prior to levelup, and definitely a bug.

[Dexxaan]

Have to agree fully with Razvan.

The last thing I want is DDO planning and controlling my every move and babysitting me through the game.

Unfortunately when it comes to software and it´s applications (even people for that matter) you´ve got to Hope for the best, but prepare for the worst.

Think Stupid and add a pinch of paranoia...you´ll get screwed a lot less. :eek:

[Theboz]

Fred's a Moron...

Took Arrow Deflection as my Original Class Monk Feat, At Level 14 wanted to swap it out for Combat Expertise. Which if I had been thinking back when I started would have been OK, and NOPE!

I can drop Arrow Deflection, but I cannot pick up Combat Expertise even though I should be able to by all rights because it's a class feat.

Sigh....very sad.

Like I said...Fred's a Moron
Buzz



if at level 1 you had a intel of 13, then you could have swap it, but if you did not have a 13 and later you used a tome to get to 13 then you can pick it up when you get the intel to do so


Also, concerning Fred, i have exchanged Class granted feats on a ranger before without problem, even though at the time you are qualified for a certain feat at the tiem of respect, does not mean you can take the feat you want, You have to be qualified for the feat you want at the level you you got the feat you want to trade out.

[Tanka]

if at level 1 you had a intel of 13, then you could have swap it, but if you did not have a 13 and later you used a tome to get to 13 then you can pick it up when you get the intel to do so
Incorrect. For purposes of feats, DDO does not keep track of when/what tomes were used for prerequisites. If you used a +1 Int Tome at L10 to get 13 Int, you can retrain any feat to CE at any level.

[Dawnblade]

Now, I am not really an expert in PnP...but isn't every player there responsible for tracking their own stuff?...I mean, feats you can and cannot take, prerequisites, etc. Why isn't every player tracking their own stuff in DDO too?... Or do we really want a confirmation button for EVERY click of the mouse and keystroke?

Sorry this happened to you OP, but you weren't able to find more of these kind posts because people are carefull about this stuff. It happened before yes, but everyone learned and moved on. To me it has always been logical to go and swap out a feat that I have already taken and that I will be getting automatically at a certain level, BEFORE reaching that level...but hey, that's just me...

Multiclassing in pnp doesn't work the same as in DDO, or at least it didn't use to when I played. Even if it did, before I could throw in some levels of any other class, the DM would most likely require an explanation as to why my paladin is suddenly seeking ranger training. So no, the player is not responsible to tracking everything. The DM would/should take a look at the character changes and at that point, any problem with feats would come up then and be discussed. A warning to players multiclassing in DDO would be the same as the player discussing problems with the DM. It's not telling you what to do. It's simply letting you know that you are about to do something that will impact your character negatively and there is no turning back.

I'm glad that your superior intelligence allows you to find a reasoning for this "feature". The average player however is not as intelligent as you are and would end up with a gimped character. I was ready for some issues. I thought I might have to spend some quality time with Fred to be able to relocate my TWF feat. I did not expect it to be lost forever however. To me, that makes absolutely no sense. Sorry if I can't see your logic.

Arguement that I should have researched first makes no sense to me. From what I know, there is no official documentation from Turbine on it. So there is no official information I could have researched. The forums are not official information unless it's an post from a Turbine employee. Additionally, searching it this morning brought up nothing relate to my problem. Granted, by this morning, it was too late to do anything about it even if there was any information on the boards. Unfortunately, my logic didn't bring me to the conclusion that I would ruin my character without a warning forever by doing this.


Do you only have TWF, or do you have ITWF or GTWF also?

If it is the latter, it makes sense that you cannot swap out the feat, since you would first have to remove ITWF and GTWF. Of course, you could not take them again unless you use feats acquired after the free TWF is available.

If you do not have ITWF or GTWF, it is simply lame that you cannot change the feat out that you otherwise could just prior to levelup, and definitely a bug.

I have oversized two weapon and two weapon defense but the GM said that there is no way to fix it. Even if I untrained all my TWF skills through Fred, I couldn't get my TWF back.

[orcbanian]

Agree with Razvan. I think by "a little less" he meant "you shouldn't be a jerk to people who post their mistakes because they already feel bad enough about their mistakes without someone coming along and punching a handful of salt into their wound."

[Strakeln]

This is BS and should be fixed with notable priority.

[branmakmuffin]

Now, I am not really an expert in PnP...but isn't every player there responsible for tracking their own stuff?...I mean, feats you can and cannot take, prerequisites, etc. Why isn't every player tracking their own stuff in DDO too?... Or do we really want a confirmation button for EVERY click of the mouse and keystroke?

Sorry this happened to you OP, but you weren't able to find more of these kind posts because people are carefull about this stuff. It happened before yes, but everyone learned and moved on. To me it has always been logical to go and swap out a feat that I have already taken and that I will be getting automatically at a certain level, BEFORE reaching that level...but hey, that's just me...
That sounds like a load of Bolsheviks to me. Your hindsight is working perfectly, I'd say.

To Dawnblade, if it's even the smallest consolation (probably not, but hey), your post has ensured that many (including me) will not experience this particular "feature."

[Vagabond]

Now, I am not really an expert in PnP...but isn't every player there responsible for tracking their own stuff?...I mean, feats you can and cannot take, prerequisites, etc. Why isn't every player tracking their own stuff in DDO too?... Or do we really want a confirmation button for EVERY click of the mouse and keystroke?

Sorry this happened to you OP, but you weren't able to find more of these kind posts because people are carefull about this stuff. It happened before yes, but everyone learned and moved on. To me it has always been logical to go and swap out a feat that I have already taken and that I will be getting automatically at a certain level, BEFORE reaching that level...but hey, that's just me...

What is it with the horrible attitude from 'pro' ddo players that makes them post drivel like this frequently on our boards? It's not logical at all as can be seen by the fact that it cannot be fixed by the support staff of the game. Game flaws, outright bugs, and design issues are not hardcore or in the vein of real D&D.

There's absolutely nothing unreasonable about expecting to be able to go back and respec a feat which, under normal circumstances, would be allowed.

And in a P&P campaign a dm would have the opportunity to say, further reduce the twf penalty, or give some sort of bonus for obtaining the same feat twice like that.

[Kreaper]

Agree with Razvan. I think by "a little less" he meant "you shouldn't be a jerk to people who post their mistakes because they already feel bad enough about their mistakes without someone coming along and punching a handful of salt into their wound."


Yes, exactly. Thank you.

[BuzzSaw]

The monk Class feats still need to have their pre-reqs met. Do you have a 13 Int (base+tomes+levelups)?

Incorrect, Like Rangers, Monks can take their bonus feats even if they do not have the pre-requisite stats to normally attain them.

Look it up.
Buzz

[Strumpoo]

SERIOUSLY...??


Oh ****! I just nerfed myself the other day then too, and lost out on a feat which really sucks and kinda make me angry.. I thought I would just have to use a dragon shard to swap out the feat, at a later date. :mad:

I am a 10 fighter /3 rogue /2 ranger...


I just picked up my 2nd level of ranger the other night and thought I would be able to respec out of the double TWF feat.

What the freak??

And I have been playing since headstart, and consider myself an, ahem, "DDO pro". So don't feel too bad man, I just did that same thing...


Turbine you should fix this.


Raz -

Your statement would have merit if the leveling up process told us we were duping a free feat and wouldn't get the feat back. If before you leveled it said something, I would side with you. But with the puny bit of information we get during the leveling process, I would definitely disagree with you about it being "the stupid noob's" problem.

The feat should be able to switched out.

[Vorn]

Incorrect, Like Rangers, Monks can take their bonus feats even if they do not have the pre-requisite stats to normally attain them.

Look it up.
Buzz

Looked it up. You might have missed this from the Dev Dungeon section on the Way of the Monk:

"Choice of a Martial Arts Feat: Your training grants you the choice of one of the following feats: Combat Expertise, Deflect Arrows, Discipline, Dodge, Great Fortitude, Improved Sunder, Improved Trip, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Mobility, Power Attack, Precision, Stunning Fist, Toughness, or Weapon Finesse. You must meet all prerequisites of the feat you select." (emphasis added)

There was at least one Dev post about this as well.

[Dawnblade]

To Dawnblade, if it's even the smallest consolation (probably not, but hey), your post has ensured that many (including me) will not experience this particular "feature."

Unfortunately, this will soon get buried in the sea of threads and lots more people will be enjoying this logical feature.

[Theboz]

Looked it up. You might have missed this from the Dev Dungeon section on the Way of the Monk:

"Choice of a Martial Arts Feat: Your training grants you the choice of one of the following feats: Combat Expertise, Deflect Arrows, Discipline, Dodge, Great Fortitude, Improved Sunder, Improved Trip, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Mobility, Power Attack, Precision, Stunning Fist, Toughness, or Weapon Finesse. You must meet all prerequisites of the feat you select." (emphasis added)

There was at least one Dev post about this as well.




true, my Ranger6/monk5 had only a 12 intel after i consumed a +1 tome, needed a +2, I could not select Combat expertise until I took the +2 tome to get my intel above 13 and thats when I took it

[BuzzSaw]

Well then, that is indeed silly. Why give Rangers the same rules as the books and then penalize the monks and make them unlike the books ?

Wow... I feel so cheated playing my monk. Not playwise... but more like: these are the rules for everyone else, and then here are the rules for the monks. Yes, I know you guys are getting penalized for no other reason than we feel like it.

Man, you'd think after two years they would start to bring some uniformity to some of the rules and how they work...

sigh...everything's an exception...
Buzz

[Razvan]

SERIOUSLY...??


Oh ****! I just nerfed myself the other day then too, and lost out on a feat which really sucks and kinda make me angry.. I thought I would just have to use a dragon shard to swap out the feat, at a later date. :mad:

I am a 10 fighter /3 rogue /2 ranger...


I just picked up my 2nd level of ranger the other night and thought I would be able to respec out of the double TWF feat.

What the freak??

And I have been playing since headstart, and consider myself an, ahem, "DDO pro". So don't feel too bad man, I just did that same thing...


Turbine you should fix this.


Raz -

Your statement would have merit if the leveling up process told us we were duping a free feat and wouldn't get the feat back. If before you leveled it said something, I would side with you. But with the puny bit of information we get during the leveling process, I would definitely disagree with you about it being "the stupid noob's" problem.

The feat should be able to switched out.

You play the game the way you want to, I play it the way I think it is smart...after all this time palying DDO you should know by now that not everything that is written in the compendium or anywhere else is all the time true. There are human errors in the way things are explained, there are programming errors where one small thing changed affects other things that you didn't even think they were related (see the "bug" fixes that they have been doing for so long and then the screw-ups that resulted from them). You, as a "DDO pro" should know all this by now...if you choose to ignore all that Turbine has tought us, that they are not perfect, then that is your problem, and from what you said you just paid the price. Me, I am cautious and smart at the same time...no, I am not wearing a tin foil had but we all know who we're dealing with here...we've seen the screw-ups, haven't we?

FOr all those who don't know, and all those who choose to ignore this fact: DDO is DEFINITELY a "hope for the best, plan for the worst" game! end of story...

[Strumpoo]

Raz -

Wasn't attacking you man, no need to get hostile.


But IMHO, I think your way of thinking on this is wrong. I stated that I had been playing this game since headstart and that I was a "pro" (intended sarcasm there, hence the quotes:rolleyes:), yet I was still duped by my interpritations of how things should work in the game. I mentioned this so that the OP knew that I agreed with him as a long time player of the game.

When I specd into a feat on my paladin that Turbine deemed could cause problems they gave him a free feat exchange. In fact, when I log onto that character I still get the message "you have a free feat exchange available".

And after playing the game for so long I have never had a problem swapping a feat out the proper way (using a dragonshard), so why would I think I would begin to have problems now? There was no warning and no notice that this may happen. I am not an idiot, and I am sure the OP isn't either, but yet in your opinion we are both "not smart" since we didn't magically know that we wouldn't be able to swap a feat out??? I don't get it?

Even if we used a character planner to "pre-build" the character we would have been able to swap out the feats, so there was no warning that way either.

[Gadget2775]

Well then, that is indeed silly. Why give Rangers the same rules as the books and then penalize the monks and make them unlike the books ?

Wow... I feel so cheated playing my monk. Not playwise... but more like: these are the rules for everyone else, and then here are the rules for the monks. Yes, I know you guys are getting penalized for no other reason than we feel like it.

Man, you'd think after two years they would start to bring some uniformity to some of the rules and how they work...

sigh...everything's an exception...
Buzz

They used an optional rule which allows them to include additional feats not normaly avaliable as Monk bonus feats, but requires them to meet the prereqs.

[Gadget2775]

For those who've taken TWF feats, then multi-classed Ranger. You have to swap out your top level feats before the game will let you get to the lower ones. So....

If you took TWF and ITWF. Then multi-ed two levels of Ranger you have to swap out ITWF before Fred will let you get to the non-Ranger TWF. I'll see if I can dig up the thread, but this was discussed not to long ago.

[Laith]

Well then, that is indeed silly. Why give Rangers the same rules as the books and then penalize the monks and make them unlike the books ?
i believe the stated reason was that they GREATLY increased your feat options and when you could take them.

from the srd:

At 1st level, a monk may select either Improved Grapple or Stunning Fist as a bonus feat.
At 2nd level, she may select either Combat Reflexes or Deflect Arrows as a bonus feat.
At 6th level, she may select either Improved Disarm or Improved Trip as a bonus feat.
A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them.

in PnP, monk feats are "choose one, and lose the other".
in DDO, monk bonus feats are treated exactly like fighter bonus feats: a much bigger list of options, and you can actually pick the feat you didn't choose the level last time.

[Gadget2775]

Found the link (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=147383) and my memory was correct. Once you swap out ITWF (pretty sure you have this) the game will let you swap out the non-Ranger TWF.

[Laith]

Found the link (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=147383) and my memory was correct. Once you swap out ITWF (pretty sure you have this) the game will let you swap out the non-Ranger TWF.i thought this bug had been discounted before, thanks!

just a note: OP would have to get rid of ALL feats dependant on TWF (including TWDefense, TWBlocking, ITWF, GTWF, and Oversized TWF) first.

since the ranger-granted TWF feat was granted late (level 9?), it might be difficult to use it to build off of with other TWF feats (feat order and level does matter).

also:
don't always take GMs at their word... players invariably know the game better.
DEVs, however, you can generally believe.

[Gadget2775]

i believe the stated reason was that they GREATLY increased your feat options and when you could take them.

Found the Dev quote


We chose to use the Martial Arts Feat optional rule from Oriental Adventures, which greatly expands the list of feat choices for a monk at levels 1, 2, and 6, but adds the requirement that prerequisites be met.
to support that here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=148360&highlight=monk+feat).

[Dawnblade]

Thanks for the replies guys. I guess I'll look into untraining oversized TWF and TWDefense and see how that goes. I still think that a simple warning somewhere would prevente a lot of issues if they don't feel like they can/want to fix this problem.

[ahpook]

Now, I am not really an expert in PnP...but isn't every player there responsible for tracking their own stuff?...I mean, feats you can and cannot take, prerequisites, etc. Why isn't every player tracking their own stuff in DDO too?... Or do we really want a confirmation button for EVERY click of the mouse and keystroke?

Sorry this happened to you OP, but you weren't able to find more of these kind posts because people are carefull about this stuff. It happened before yes, but everyone learned and moved on. To me it has always been logical to go and swap out a feat that I have already taken and that I will be getting automatically at a certain level, BEFORE reaching that level...but hey, that's just me...

Man you are so right. In PnP we are responsible for rolling our own dice - so here we should have to roll and enter our results into a text box. And in PnP we are all responsible for imagining the scene based on a verbal description - so they should also drop all those graphics and just give us descriptions of what is going on...... In other words, your analogy of responsibilities in PnP is inappropriate.

Truth is, Fred needs to be smarter. He doesn't track if you have a feat multiple times and he needs to so you can pick the one you want to swap out. Right now he only knows about the most recent so you cannot swap out your TWF since he only knows about the class granted one. (Razvan, no DM would be that stupid).

Dawnblade, this is a bug and hopefully you have posted it as one. Hopefully they will fix it and you will eventually be able to regain that feat. And thanks for posting your troubles and reminding the rest of us to be more careful until this bug is fixed.

[Dawnblade]

Man you are so right. In PnP we are responsible for rolling our own dice - so here we should have to roll and enter our results into a text box. And in PnP we are all responsible for imagining the scene based on a verbal description - so they should also drop all those graphics and just give us descriptions of what is going on...... In other words, your analogy of responsibilities in PnP is inappropriate.

Truth is, Fred needs to be smarter. He doesn't track if you have a feat multiple times and he needs to so you can pick the one you want to swap out. Right now he only knows about the most recent so you cannot swap out your TWF since he only knows about the class granted one. (Razvan, no DM would be that stupid).

Dawnblade, this is a bug and hopefully you have posted it as one. Hopefully they will fix it and you will eventually be able to regain that feat. And thanks for posting your troubles and reminding the rest of us to be more careful until this bug is fixed.

I hadn't thought about reporting it as a bug. I'll do that. Right now I'm trying the work around of untraining all my TWF related feats to untrain my TWF. Hopefully that will work as it seems to have worked on the thread linked by gadget. If it doesn't work I'll have a gimped char who just threw a load of money down the drain.

I'll keep you posted.

And I have to say, I'm all for comparing D&D to DDO. I'm here because this game is based on D&D and I want it to be as close to the real thing as possible. But that comparisson made no sense to me at all. You can't compare a live DM to whom you can simply explain the situation and get it fixed to a machine that will do as programed and you can fix bad coding with arguements. The way I see it, if this is working as intended, it is a real flaw in the system.

[ShaeNightbird]

What is it with the horrible attitude from 'pro' ddo players that makes them post drivel like this frequently on our boards? It's not logical at all as can be seen by the fact that it cannot be fixed by the support staff of the game. Game flaws, outright bugs, and design issues are not hardcore or in the vein of real D&D.

There's absolutely nothing unreasonable about expecting to be able to go back and respec a feat which, under normal circumstances, would be allowed.

And in a P&P campaign a dm would have the opportunity to say, further reduce the twf penalty, or give some sort of bonus for obtaining the same feat twice like that.

*Cheers*

[Razvan]

lol...another thing we got from this thread: at least now we know, in the case of a major disaster when everyone is required to evacuate the city, who will be in line at the gas station to fuel up so they can leave, and who will already be on the road to safety... :D


>don't take the above so literally...and don't worry, some may get it...others won't<

[Dawnblade]

lol...another thing we got from this thread: at least now we know, in the case of a major disaster when everyone is required to evacuate the city, who will be in line at the gas station to fuel up so they can leave, and who will already be on the road to safety... :D


>don't take the above so literally...and don't worry, some may get it...others won't<


Another pointless, meaningless analogy brought to you by Razvan. With your incredible insight, it's obvious you will probably be out of town before the disaster even happens.

[Yokozuna]

This is a bug and should be fixed post haste.

[Strumpoo]

lol...another thing we got from this thread: at least now we know, in the case of a major disaster when everyone is required to evacuate the city, who will be in line at the gas station to fuel up so they can leave, and who will already be on the road to safety... :D


>don't take the above so literally...and don't worry, some may get it...others won't<



Actually I think we know who will be running over the women and children on their way out of town. :p

[Jonathan_Lonehawk]

Nevermind