Out Of Contol

[Torilin]

Does turbine want to keep a player base?

I have been running visions since this quest has come out, over 30 runs, why is it that of all the loot in this quest the bard cloak drops the most. 2 runs tonight and our drops were 4 bard cloaks and 1 set of gloves. This is rediculous, and this is a trend, I have seen the bard cloak drop 30 times (at least) and the goggles 4 times, the caster bracers 1 time, the dex bracers 2 times. What the hell is the problem. Its like the titan, the belt never drops, over 100 runs in the titan seen the belt drop 2 times. ***? Man i have played this game for a long time and never been as frustrated as I am right now with it.

Visions is a very resource intensive quest, after so many runs you would expect to see more drops than the friggin bard cloak. Just getting to visions is so laggorific that we have to slowly get to the quest just so we dont lag with all the monster teleporting. This raid is not pug friendly, luckly I am in a guild that can run this quest when we want, the problem is its not worth it anymore. Why do I go in there just to be disapointed with another bard cloak. I am sick of it. This isnt about minimum raid loot this is about equal opportunity for raid loot to drop. We have seen this yet we still run it. If this is the way Turbine rewards players with the skill and resourses to finish its high end content, then I have had enough.

So if Turbine continues to make quest that have loot in them but the loot doesnt drop what is the point?

[Beherit_Baphomar]

Ive saw the cloak drop three times in one run.

We can ***** and moan all we want, but you see what happens...think Titan.

[Deaths_ward]

That's funny been in vision all of 4 times (successfully many more not successfully) and I've see
Run 1)
-Tharne's Goggles
-Enlightened Vestments
Run 2)
-Bracers of the Glacier
-Full Plate of the Defender
-Bard's Cloak
Run 3)
Nothing
Run 4)
-Full Plate of the Defender
-Tharne's Goggles
-Bard's Cloak.

It comes down to this question.

Do you have a blood stone? If so how many chest pulls did it take? I'm working on 10 ransack runs on 4 different alts
(10x4)=40x24 chest pulls= 960 attempts to pull an still no bloodstone. It just comes down to crappy rolls, be glad anything dropped at all.

Just because something has a 1 in X chance of dropping doesn't mean you are garunteed to get it when you pull from the chest X times, you may have to pull from the chest 1000X times before you even see it.

[Borror0]

Do you have a blood stone? If so how many chest pulls did it take?

It's different, my friend. It's bound loot. And it has a timer.

[Falco_Easts]

So if Turbine continues to make quest that have loot in them but the loot doesnt drop what is the point?

So you're saying that if quests dropped all the loot you wanted you would keep running them after you got said loot? And after everyone in your guild had said loot?

[Borror0]

So you're saying that if quests dropped all the loot you wanted you would keep running them after you got said loot? And after everyone in your guild had said loot?

Risk/time spent versus reward. If it takes too many completions, it becomes really, really frustrating.

It's like the Titan. I know a lot of heavy raiders that have given up on that raid 'cause they know they'll probably never get the loot, except maybe on 20 or 40.

[markymarksta]

Does it come down to crappy rolls? Or is it your (or in the case of a raid OUR) chance to roll the number needed to get the item crappy?

[Falco_Easts]

Risk/time spent versus reward. If it takes too many completions, it becomes really, really frustrating.

It's like the Titan. I know a lot of heavy raiders that have given up on that raid 'cause they know they'll probably never get the loot, except maybe on 20 or 40.

I can understand that, and yet others will keep plugging away at it to get what they want. It would be a fine line between keeping as many hooked as you can and not frustrating to many to the point of them giving up.

[Borror0]

I can understand that, and yet others will keep plugging away at it to get what they want. It would be a fine line between keeping as many hooked as you can and not frustrating to many to the point of them giving up.

Truth is, any bard that wants thise cloak only has to run Vision twice. If he didn't get it, he'll have it by run number 3. For others, the chance is much lower. Really, it would hurt to lower the chance of the cloak to drop and increase the other. It drops so often it's even a joke. The same way I have never seen the belt drop and only see the gloves drop once, out of about 30 Titan runs.

I don't think Tor is asking for huge changem or even an easy button. Just for them reconsider it a little, because yes, it could use some tweaking.

[Beherit_Baphomar]

Why is there a different percentage to loot one raid item over another?
Shouldnt they all have the same chance of dropping?

And you cant tell me that we have no proof one item drops less than others.

[Borror0]

And you cant tell me that we have no proof one item drops less than others.

But, but, but I only vendor trashed 10 Centurion Armor!!111;)

[transtemporal]

Vision and hound consistently seem to drop a good range of stuff and more often than I would have expected, given the complaints on the forums about the frequency of raid loot drops. Who knows? Maybe I won't see anything from now on.

Its like the bloodstone thing. I know people who've done that run 100 times or more, no bloodstone. I got it on my second run. Ring of Spellstoring on the other hand took 116 runs. :)

[Deaths_ward]

Why is there a different percentage to loot one raid item over another?
Shouldnt they all have the same chance of dropping?

And you cant tell me that we have no proof one item drops less than others.

Technically there is an equal chance, but the "Dice Roller" is based of a random number generator(or so I assume) and as with all random number generators it has a tendency to spit out numbers in the middle of whatever range it's generating for.

7 pieces of loot, and it's set to say spit out a number between 1-21 (yes I know there is no 21 sided dice) when ever raid loot is generated, it's going to have a tendency to spit out numbers between 8 and 14, and say the table looks like.

1-3: Tharne's Goggles
4-6: Bracers of the Glacier
7-9: Enlightened Vestments
10-12: Bard's Cloak
13-15: Full Plate of the Defender
16-18: Gloves of the Glacier
19-21: Tharne's Bracers

you could see where that would lead.

[Borror0]

it's going to have a tendency to spit out numbers between 8 and 14, and say the table looks like.

Since when? Last time I checked, when rolling a d6 I had equal chances to roll a one, a two, a three, a four, a five or a six.

[GlassCannon]

It's like the Titan. I know a lot of heavy raiders that have given up on that raid 'cause they know they'll probably never get the loot, even on 20 or 40.

Fixed for accuracy. Titan is merely a Favor Run now.

[GlassCannon]

Since when? Last time I checked, when rolling a d6 I had equal chances to roll a one, a two, a three, a four, a five or a six.

We are rolling a WEIGHTED d6.

There is a rather major difference.

[Karr]

Because unlike rolling a die, random number generators are not really random.

[Borror0]

Because unlike rolling a die, random number generators are not really random.

I know that much, but to a degree it's as noticeable as the Bard Cloak's, Belt of Brute Stregth's or Seven Fingered Gloves' drop rate?

[Beherit_Baphomar]

it's going to have a tendency to spit out numbers between 8 and 14, and say the table looks like.

How can it possibly spit out between 8-14 more than anything else?
Roll of the dice is completely random.

[Borror0]

How can it possibly spit out between 8-14 more than anything else?
Roll of the dice is completely random.

Not totally. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudorandom_number_generator) But not to a scale where it's that noticeable.

[Torilin]

Why is there a different percentage to loot one raid item over another?
Shouldnt they all have the same chance of dropping?

And you cant tell me that we have no proof one item drops less than others.

This is absolutley correct, there are different drop rate percentages, there are plenty of people that have run reaver 60, 80 100 times on one toon and never gotten the head.

The raid loot mechanic is broken so we will keep grinding and grinding, unless its the shroud you should not have to grind at these raids, im not saying that you should just get what you want, what im saying is that if you run a raid enough times you should see all the raid loot not just a friggin bard cloak.

We have a great grind quest, the Shroud, in here everyone gets something (ingredients) so its worth grinding, Turbine you want us to grind bring more crafting into the game. How are you going to tell your casual player base that when they get into a raid and see nothing dropped, "oh well have to run it again" when in fact it was hard enough being in the right place at the right time to just be invited to a raid.

[darkrune]

As far as I can see if you are in a small guild or a guildless character you will be lucky if you even get invited into the VOD quest. Period! This quest is awesomely hard and VERY cost intensive so many guilds flat out do not pug unless no other choice.

Ask me how many times my fighter,ranger,bard and wiz have completed VOD vs how many times my cleric has.

Also how many times have the affore-mentioned donated pots (mana and curse) to clerics in the quest and upon failure how many have they gotten back.

This quest is NOT for the general public. It is meant for high end raiding groups that can get it done. Does that mean not everyone can complete it... NO. It just means you have to be VERY lucky to be in the exact class that is needed to join a group that can get it done.

This is not meant to hijack your thread Tor so sorry for my rant I just want to point out that the quest simplely will NEVER be for the average player ( isnt that what turbine says all their quests are geared for?) as it is **** near inpossible for the "average" player to even make it there let alone make it through. At minimum most people are "gently suggested" to donate mana pots to the clerics at worst it is demanded. And god forbid you dont have a tier three weapon.

As for the drop rates... they suck... horribly... why is it that the best items seem to be 1 and 20 on the 20 side die roll when everything else is like 2-5, 6-8,9-11,12-17,18-19 with 12-17 being the XXX (treason, centurian armor, bard cloak, etc).

just my 2cp. And before people start saying that i am not a "powergamer" and am just jealous of them, just ask the above poster he probably will verify that i am however i enjoy running with some friends that may never be considered powergamer types by others and the lack of them being able to run often sucks.

Dark

[Pyromaniac]

I have been running visions since this quest has come out, over 30 runs, why is it that of all the loot in this quest the bard cloak drops the most.

QFT - Last nights raid the one bard in the party could have had 2 bard cloaks. Might as well start giving bard cloaks out at three finger tad in the harbor. I would suggest we're close to averaging a bard cloak per run almost.

Feels like there is only a chance for the better loot in the raid on runs 20/40/60/80 - and frankly I'm starting to think about whether my characters truly need vision raid loot or not at this point for the aggravation it is. I hope that on run 20 the full raid loot list is there given how few items there are.

I highly doubt I'm going 40+ runs per toon on this one as the raid itself is not very creative or interesting to do. Combine that with titan style loot drops.....and a big step backwards from the shroud raid.

[nakedfatguy]

I've vendored or seen vendored 4 cloaks and i have one on 2 other of my toons that use chr items....so ya, it drops more than anything else in there. but if we got everything we wanted then we wouldnt be running these quests anymore, so there has to be an apple at the end of the stick or i wouldnt play anymore. still, it is frustrating doing an elite run and getting one bard cloak drop :mad:

[maddmatt70]

As far as I can see if you are in a small guild or a guildless character you will be lucky if you even get invited into the VOD quest. Period! This quest is awesomely hard and VERY cost intensive so many guilds flat out do not pug unless no other choice.

Ask me how many times my fighter,ranger,bard and wiz have completed VOD vs how many times my cleric has.

Also how many times have the affore-mentioned donated pots (mana and curse) to clerics in the quest and upon failure how many have they gotten back.

This quest is NOT for the general public. It is meant for high end raiding groups that can get it done. Does that mean not everyone can complete it... NO. It just means you have to be VERY lucky to be in the exact class that is needed to join a group that can get it done.

This is not meant to hijack your thread Tor so sorry for my rant I just want to point out that the quest simplely will NEVER be for the average player ( isnt that what turbine says all their quests are geared for?) as it is **** near inpossible for the "average" player to even make it there let alone make it through. At minimum most people are "gently suggested" to donate mana pots to the clerics at worst it is demanded. And god forbid you dont have a tier three weapon.

As for the drop rates... they suck... horribly... why is it that the best items seem to be 1 and 20 on the 20 side die roll when everything else is like 2-5, 6-8,9-11,12-17,18-19 with 12-17 being the XXX (treason, centurian armor, bard cloak, etc).

just my 2cp. And before people start saying that i am not a "powergamer" and am just jealous of them, just ask the above poster he probably will verify that i am however i enjoy running with some friends that may never be considered powergamer types by others and the lack of them being able to run often sucks.

Dark

This post is very short sighted. We are level 16 and in two months the cap will be increased to level 18 at which point hopefully this quest will still pose some sort of challenge for players. The Reaver the colossal failure it is at this point is a total joke for players because it was made at its conception too easy. I think raids should be made with the next level cap increase in mind not the present one. VOD seems to reflect this mindset. I want to enjoy playing this quest at level 18 not just 16.

[Borror0]

I want to enjoy playing this quest at level 18 not just 16.

I agree. And as for casual players not being in Vision of Destruction... not so much. We have invited a lot of PuGs in our parties. Same for Maelstrom and Legion.

[jkm]

i pugged this once or otherwise i wouldn't have realized that anything other than the full plate or the bard's cloak could drop...

[Ringos]

I agree. And as for casual players not being in Vision of Destruction... not so much. We have invited a lot of PuGs in our parties. Same for Maelstrom and Legion.

Just a question...are these LFMs going up to the public (meaning open to any pugger) or are the guilds being fairly selective? Are they taking only outsiders they know or people from 'known' guilds?

Not implying anything at all, as it is a serious question. I know it takes good communication and teamwork on a raid like this, so it would be interesting if they actually took 'unknowns' from the general public.

[elraido]

I have only run vision once, and we beat it....I got the gloves of the glacier on my paladin. Noone else wanted them. All I want is the fullplate

[VirieSquichie]

This post is very short sighted. We are level 16 and in two months the cap will be increased to level 18 at which point hopefully this quest will still pose some sort of challenge for players. The Reaver the colossal failure it is at this point is a total joke for players because it was made at its conception too easy. I think raids should be made with the next level cap increase in mind not the present one. VOD seems to reflect this mindset. I want to enjoy playing this quest at level 18 not just 16.

Two months, eh?

Source, please. As near as I can tell, it could come out any time this decade.

Is the Reaver raid too easy? Yes, but more because it's a two-room quest than anything else...if the raids were all the length and complexity of Tempest Spine, not to mention *interesting* throughout that length, it wouldn't be such a joke. As it is, once you persevere through the horrible grind you are rewarded with a lifetime subscription to easy loot. Personally, as much as I like the individual gianthold quests, I will not EVER grind out 50+ of them to get another character Reaver ready. I'll buy the stinking relics from the AH where someone else who considers that large a chunk of their life to be worth so little has posted them.

[Turial]

Just a question...are these LFMs going up to the public (meaning open to any pugger) or are the guilds being fairly selective? Are they taking only outsiders they know or people from 'known' guilds?

Not implying anything at all, as it is a serious question. I know it takes good communication and teamwork on a raid like this, so it would be interesting if they actually took 'unknowns' from the general public.

I've seen public LFM's on Ghallanda for VOD. Some have mana pot buy ins and some dont. I try bring atleast 1 major mana for each cleric on any VOD run.

[stockwizard5]

Generally speaking I write all this off to the inequities inherant to randomness but last night was the final straw ...

3 Vision runs, 7 Bard's Cloaks, 1 Gloves - to me it points out the idiocy of the current raid loot system :mad:

The killer is that many of us have no need for any (or any more of) the raid loot from either Vision or Hound (since they decided to put so few items) and are only running to help guildies (and indirectly PUGs) get items they desire. With half the group already knowing there is nothing for them - stupid evenings like last night cause aggrivation that is pushing many of us to consider calling it a day.

Would it have really taken that much effort to create twice the number of items AND include a random chance for a large ingrediant? At least then we would have a reason to run :confused:

[elraido]

Two months, eh?

Source, please. As near as I can tell, it could come out any time this decade.

Is the Reaver raid too easy? Yes, but more because it's a two-room quest than anything else...if the raids were all the length and complexity of Tempest Spine, not to mention *interesting* throughout that length, it wouldn't be such a joke. As it is, once you persevere through the horrible grind you are rewarded with a lifetime subscription to easy loot. Personally, as much as I like the individual gianthold quests, I will not EVER grind out 50+ of them to get another character Reaver ready. I'll buy the stinking relics from the AH where someone else who considers that large a chunk of their life to be worth so little has posted them.

That is the same reason why I have run the demon queen 2 times. Titan seems to be the best IMHO. Have a full level you have to run threw before you get there.

[Torilin]

I've vendored or seen vendored 4 cloaks and i have one on 2 other of my toons that use chr items....so ya, it drops more than anything else in there. but if we got everything we wanted then we wouldnt be running these quests anymore, so there has to be an apple at the end of the stick or i wouldnt play anymore. still, it is frustrating doing an elite run and getting one bard cloak drop :mad:

I believe this is the wrong philosophy, sure you shouldnt get what you want on every run that would be boring, should you have to run a raid 40, 60 times to get the one item that you might need? I say no. There are not many people running Visions anyway, so its not like there is this huge amount of raid loot out there. What I am saying is why when a team of players that works together and figures a raid out and can successfully beat it on a regular basis see the same loot over and over again. Great another 2 bard cloaks, it has gotten to the point, like Maels said many who run this raid with us dont need anything out of there, we do it for other guildies and any puggers we bring along, but why must we see the same stuff over and over and over again. Makes no sense and is making me loose interest in this game. Hmm there is a funny concept, we put the work in we should be rewarded. You know why everyone likes the shroud, everyone has equal opportunity to get ingrediants and make an uber item.

Here is another concept quit making raid loot that trumps other raid loot, now the question is why would I run titan for the belt when I know im getting bracers out of hounds. good way to make peeps not play this game is to make them loose interest, i.e. why go after queen goggles when I really want the goggles from visions. I had fun running a lowbie through dragon the other day and would run this raid more but why, there is nothing in there for me. Stop making raid loot that trumps other raid loot, be more imagianitive, after all it is D&D where only your lack of imagination prevents you from doing something.

[Borror0]

Not implying anything at all, as it is a serious question. I know it takes good communication and teamwork on a raid like this, so it would be interesting if they actually took 'unknowns' from the general public.

We'll take anyone, but we won't pick people we know are problematic.

We'll also favor people we know or from guild we know know won't put us into trouble before accepting total PuGs. If you wodner, GSI is on the "Good guild" list. And yes, the LFMs are posted. You might not see ours because usually we do our Vision runs pretty late.

[Borror0]

Is the Reaver raid too easy? Yes, but more because it's a two-room quest than anything else...if the raids were all the length and complexity of Tempest Spine, not to mention *interesting* throughout that length, it wouldn't be such a joke.

It's because it's one room, eh?

Step in A Vision of Destruction on Elite and dare to tell me it was easy. Oh, frap it. I don't want a signle of your clerics using mana pots.:rolleyes:

If the Reaver is so easy, it's for the way it was designed. Infinite SPs makes a raid very easy. Then, the fact that it's not worth to either add DPS to the DPS added on the raid boss (because casters will nuke it at the end) or to kill the elementals for a melee character (because casters will FoD/PK them) makes it very boring for a great part of the party. Then, reducing the number of elemental has made that even on Elite all you need is three players.

[jkm]

okay, i'd just like to point out that this thread cursed our raid just now - 5 items dropped
2 goggles (one to me :D)
2 full plates
and the vestments

this after i saw the titan belt drop an hour before :eek:

[maddmatt70]

Did 2 elite vod runs tonight. 1st run 4 or 5 items drooped and none of them was the bard's cloak and on the second run 7 items dropped: 2 bard cloaks, 3 tharne's bracers, Full plate defender, Vestment. This would seem to be about the right drop rate for items per break down. Overall I would say after several Vod runs the drops are about equal for each specific raid loot. The issue with the bard's cloak is more that no one really wants them even alot of the time the bards who don't have it. The bard's cloak is alot like the large bone ingredient in the Shroud so few recipes/people need them that when it is dropped you get an oh look another darn bard's cloak reaction from people.

[Darkwolf1071]

Last nights raid the one bard in the party could have had 2 bard cloaks.

Think my guildie Deckeon was in this run with y'all; he sends me a tell saying 'Boy you were right, Maelstrom sure knows how to run VoD'. Asked him what dropped and he told me 2 Bard cloaks; my reply was "Oooh, I bet that generated a whole bunch of swearing..."

[Pyromaniac]

Yep I think we had a militia guild member in there. I'm honestly not sure what's worse, getting no raid loot or bard cloak(s) in a run :)

[Torilin]

okay, i'd just like to point out that this thread cursed our raid just now - 5 items dropped
2 goggles (one to me :D)
2 full plates
and the vestments

this after i saw the titan belt drop an hour before :eek:


Well I am glad someone is seeing loot other than the bard cloak.

[Pyromaniac]

Can my bard cloak loot flag be changed to something useful. Happy to swap with someone else who's short on bard cloaks :)

[maddmatt70]

Step in A Vision of Destruction on Elite and dare to tell me it was easy. Oh, frap it. I don't want a signle of your clerics using mana pots.:rolleyes:



I know this is out of context with this thread, but I was curious as to how many groups/guilds across all the servers regularly run Vod on elite (most every time they run a vod). I would guess the number is under 10 groups/guilds, but was just curious.

[Bunker]

i.e. why go after queen goggles when I really want the goggles from visions. I had fun running a lowbie through dragon the other day and would run this raid more but why, there is nothing in there for me. Stop making raid loot that trumps other raid loot, be more imagianitive, after all it is D&D where only your lack of imagination prevents you from doing something.

Out of everything on this Thread, I agree with the statement above the most. Creativity of raid loot has always been lacking a bit here and there. Instead of putting True Seeing on another set of goggles, I say put it on a different piece of gear. Helm, Gloves, Cloak, ect.......That goes double for a lot of loot in my opinionated eyes. Not to mention the WF love, I dont' think we have seen a Docent since where?.......the Queen, Titan? I'm not saying any or all classes need to be represented all the time, but it would be nice.

As for the OP's comment on loot rate, drop rate, varitey that drops,.......Well.....We have all know this to be considered a problem by many for quite some time. Tor: I understand your frustration.

[alchilito]

VoD can be run without spending too many resources if you have a group of players willing to pay attention and follow instructions. Regarding the drop rates, theoretically we expect it to be random but there are trends noticed by the whole community, e.g. bard's cloak dropping frequently in VoD, and titan belt NOT dropping at all, in Argonnessen some of us are convinced that the loot tables of the titan are fubar and simply do not bother running it on elite anymore. It is very frustrating to see that this game does not take into consideration class or race when generating a given item: I had to take some time to cool off after my 20th titan run with my wf wiz when I saw that the loot table included NOTHING a wf or a wiz could use. Raids are the only thing that is left for some of us in terms of items we desire and the way drop rates are skewed needs to be addressed in some way.

[hurricane333]

So if Turbine continues to make quest that have loot in them but the loot doesnt drop what is the point?



Aside from loot. I'm so tired that my collectable turn ins that give healing potions are 50% warforged
serious oil vs. 50% cure serious. The racial imbalance is disheartening.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Why is there a different percentage to loot one raid item over another?
Shouldnt they all have the same chance of dropping?

And you cant tell me that we have no proof one item drops less than others.


Technically there is an equal chance, but the "Dice Roller" is based of a random number generator(or so I assume) and as with all random number generators it has a tendency to spit out numbers in the middle of whatever range it's generating for..

Actually its not true its the same chance. Devs have confirmed in the past that not all raid loot falls at the same rate. As per the D&D tradition, some loot is more rare than others. As an example, at one point they said +3 tomes in Reaver had a drop rate of 0.8%, and there aren't more than 100 raid loot items in Reaver...