New Palli stuff in the works

[elraido]

Paladin spells "Zeal" and "Lionheart."

Zeal
A noble Paladin, fervent in his dedication to righteousness, can draw upon the spirit of that dedication to perform seemingly impossible tasks. When surrounded by his enemies, a Paladin versed in this skill sets upon his adversaries with the zealous fervor of many times his number.

Effect: Quickly attacks multiple adjacent enemies.

Zeal increases your Attack Rating, and allows you to attack multiple adjacent monsters. Additional points into Zeal increases Attack Rating and increases the number of swings per use of Zeal up to 5. Zeal allows you to take a lot of very quick swings at a monster while at the same time increasing your attack rating.

Zeal is uninterrupted.


Lionheart ?????

[Uproar]

Lionheart sounds like courage. I'd think it would offer protection against curses and enfeebling. Maybe more.

[elraido]

Sounds like zeal is a nice variation of a fighter attack boost. A higher lvl spell that might actually be usefull.

[Aesop]

Originally Posted by Eladrin
Things that are currently being worked on also include:

Zeal
Paladin 2
Duration: 1 minute. (Swift casting, like Close Wounds.)
Benefit: Grants the Paladin a +4 deflection bonus to armor class and increases their movement speed.

Lionheart
Paladin 1
Duration: 24 seconds plus 6 per caster level.
Benefit: Imbues a single ally with great bravery, making them immune to fear.

Stalwart Pact
Cleric 5, Paladin 4
Benefit: Grants the target 5 hit points for every 2 caster levels, a +2 luck bonus to saving throws, and damage reduction 5/Magic, if the target of the spell falls below 50% hit points.

Death Pact
Cleric 8
Benefit: You enter a pact with your deity that brings you back to life after you are slain. While under the effects of this spell and after the raise effect, your constitution is decreased by two and cannot be restored until you rest.
Material Component: Large Diamond, available at spell shops.


that was the last word I hear on the spells incoming... I'm unimpressed

Aesop

[Dexxaan]

Quoted from MONTROSE in the Chronicle thread:

In case anyone is wondering (I was), here are the descriptions for the three spells mentioned:

Zeal
Paladin 2
Duration: 1 minute. (Swift casting, like Close Wounds.)
Benefit: Grants the Paladin a +4 deflection bonus to armor class and increases their movement speed.

If Accurate: LAME. Simply lame; Deflecion is non stackable, if it were Dodge...now thats a different story. Higher movement rate how about extra Attacks....if you want a higher movement rate drink a haste pot.

Lionheart
Paladin 1
Duration: 24 seconds plus 6 per caster level.
Benefit: Imbues a single ally with great bravery, making them immune to fear.

If Accurate: AWESOME!! A GH without the +4 Saves and To hit. And it´ll last anywhere from 48 seconds to 2 Minutes...4 if Extended. Gotta have it! :rolleyes:

[artvan_delet]

Unless these stack with items, I'll never be casting these two paladin spells.

[elraido]

Ouch, the Zeal I looked up was waaaaaaaay off. :mad: We don't need anymore lame lvl 1-2 spells. We need good lvl 3 and 4 spells. Deathpact looks decent for clerics....an auto raise like in Final Fantasy

[zoltan00]

to me lionheart completly sucks as for zeal if the effect only increases your movement then it will also blows but if it increases your attack speed as much as a gighters haste boost then this can be a very very nice maybe even almost overpowering spell for the fighters that have fighters haste boost its insane how much damage you do over time combine that with a pally with divine sacrifice and exalted smite it would bring pally to a dps class again I personally think also I hope it goes by casters levels and not enhancements

[GhostNull]

Yes, these are rather weak spells that are getting added. But, Unless you have 20 UMD to equip the Iron Manacles at level 8, Zeal may not be too bad, it just needs to last longer. Paladins don't need another 1 minute-only spell; It should be set up like Lionheart, 24 seconds plus 6 per caster level.

However, I still wonder what is so god-awful about Righteous Fury that the Devs don't want to implement it?

Righteous Fury
Paladin 3
Duration: 1 minute/caster level.
Benefit: Ggains +4 Sacred Bonus to Strength and 5 HPs per caster level, max 50

An extra +2 to attack and damage? An extra 50 (fake) hitpoints that would be "synergy" with Divine Sacrifice? Clearly overpowerd in the Dev's mind.

[Dexxaan]

Righteous Fury looks like the kid of Paladin love we´ve been screaming for months....

Overpowered? Not really.

[GhostNull]

And it has been "screamed for" for months. Begged, pleaded for, you name it. Ever since the first mention "Pally Love", that was the one spell that was always asked for, but we never got it. Who knows, the Devs could be evil and implement it this coming mod, but then they wouldn't have any Paladin players left to use it as they all died of a heart-attack from getting something they actually wanted ;)

Another thought on Zeal, it'd be even better if it was a "mini-haste" for Paladins. Maybe grant a 20% increase to movement rate and a 10-15% increase to attack speed. And these bonuses would stack with Haste, Fighter/Rogue Attack Boost, etc. I could then see the justification for the for 1 minute-only duration (2 with Extend!)

[artvan_delet]

to me lionheart completly sucks as for zeal if the effect only increases your movement then it will also blows but if it increases your attack speed as much as a gighters haste boost then this can be a very very nice maybe even almost overpowering spell for the fighters that have fighters haste boost its insane how much damage you do over time combine that with a pally with divine sacrifice and exalted smite it would bring pally to a dps class again I personally think also I hope it goes by casters levels and not enhancements

Zeal haste wouldn't stack with haste or items (e.g. jorgundals collar). It would stack with enhancements, but pure paladins don't have those and fighters already do. SO, unless the attack speed for this low level spells somehow exceeded haste, this spell is a waste for mid to high level tanks.

[zoltan00]

Yes, these are rather weak spells that are getting added. But, Unless you have 20 UMD to equip the Iron Manacles at level 8, Zeal may not be too bad, it just needs to last longer. Paladins don't need another 1 minute-only spell; It should be set up like Lionheart, 24 seconds plus 6 per caster level.

However, I still wonder what is so god-awful about Righteous Fury that the Devs don't want to implement it?

Righteous Fury
Paladin 3
Duration: 1 minute/caster level.
Benefit: Ggains +4 Sacred Bonus to Strength and 5 HPs per caster level, max 50

An extra +2 to attack and damage? An extra 50 (fake) hitpoints that would be "synergy" with Divine Sacrifice? Clearly overpowerd in the Dev's mind.

Omg dude thats what is missing but i agree if zeal increases the attack speed about 10%-20% that would be amazing then pallys would be fixed haha specially since the whole barbarian tempest is coming in about 1 year or so they need this to be balanced but rogues and fighters need alittle boost aswell :)

[hydra_ex]

The description of Zeal is incomplete, in addition to the +4 defelction, zeal also lets you move through enemies as if they were allies, which seems incredibly useful.

[toughguyjoe]

Yes, these are rather weak spells that are getting added. But, Unless you have 20 UMD to equip the Iron Manacles at level 8, Zeal may not be too bad, it just needs to last longer. Paladins don't need another 1 minute-only spell; It should be set up like Lionheart, 24 seconds plus 6 per caster level.

However, I still wonder what is so god-awful about Righteous Fury that the Devs don't want to implement it?

Righteous Fury
Paladin 3
Duration: 1 minute/caster level.
Benefit: Ggains +4 Sacred Bonus to Strength and 5 HPs per caster level, max 50

An extra +2 to attack and damage? An extra 50 (fake) hitpoints that would be "synergy" with Divine Sacrifice? Clearly overpowerd in the Dev's mind.


I love the idea of this spell, but if it was implimented into DDO i could not see it being 1 minute/caster level. i mean 14 minutes of a stackable +4 str is huge for a class that doesn't have anything like that. i would love to see this spell implemented, but i think if they did the devs would lower the Duration to one similar to divine power.

[llevenbaxx]

I love the idea of this spell, but if it was implimented into DDO i could not see it being 1 minute/caster level. i mean 14 minutes of a stackable +4 str is huge for a class that doesn't have anything like that. i would love to see this spell implemented, but i think if they did the devs would lower the Duration to one similar to divine power.

Hopefully they wouldnt. Rams Might is almost identical in affect and has the kickass duration ta boot.

Agree its what my paladins been missing though. My next question would be, "Do profane and divine str bonuses stack?":)

They can keep their Lionfart smell.;)

[Angelus_dead]

Coming in around module 8 (if all goes well) are three paladin specialty enhancements:

Defender of Sealtiel: increased defensive power by restricting your movement
Knight of the Chalice: offensive abilities against extraplanar evils
Purple Dragon Knight: offensive buffs to nearby allies

[Eladrin]

Our implementation of Zeal is has changed significantly since then. It's currently a short duration personal effect Sacred bonus to attack speed.


AWESOME!! A GH without the +4 Saves and To hit.
The tons of level 4 characters casting Greater Heroism will indeed be sad.

[Coldin]

Our implementation of Zeal is has changed significantly since then. It's currently a short duration personal effect Sacred bonus to attack speed.

Hmm, so kinda like Fighter's Haste Boost, except a spell instead.

[llevenbaxx]

Our implementation of Zeal is has changed significantly since then. It's currently a short duration personal effect Sacred bonus to attack speed.

Will it stack with ftr Haste boost?... among other things like haste?

[Eladrin]

Will it stack with ftr Haste boost?... among other things like haste?
"Sacred" stacks with "Action Boost" and "Enhancement", as well as "Insight" and any others you might find.

[llevenbaxx]

"Sacred" stacks with "Action Boost" and "Enhancement", as well as "Insight" and any others you might find.

Very nice.:D TY

[Beherit_Baphomar]

Hmm, so kinda like Fighter's Haste Boost, except a spell instead.

Another reason to multiclass a Paladin, huh?

Excellent.

[Josh]

Paladin spells "Zeal" and "Lionheart."

Zeal
A noble Paladin, fervent in his dedication to righteousness, can draw upon the spirit of that dedication to perform seemingly impossible tasks. When surrounded by his enemies, a Paladin versed in this skill sets upon his adversaries with the zealous fervor of many times his number.

Effect: Quickly attacks multiple adjacent enemies.

Zeal increases your Attack Rating, and allows you to attack multiple adjacent monsters. Additional points into Zeal increases Attack Rating and increases the number of swings per use of Zeal up to 5. Zeal allows you to take a lot of very quick swings at a monster while at the same time increasing your attack rating.

Zeal is uninterrupted.


Lionheart ?????


I didn't think that it was possible to create something that simultaneously sucks AND blows...but Turbine has done it here....TWICE!

*edit* perhaps just once if Zeal is presented as described above.

[Josh]

I love the idea of this spell, but if it was implimented into DDO i could not see it being 1 minute/caster level. i mean 14 minutes of a stackable +4 str is huge for a class that doesn't have anything like that. i would love to see this spell implemented, but i think if they did the devs would lower the Duration to one similar to divine power.

Why? Rangers get Ram's Might at 1 min/ level.

[Beherit_Baphomar]

Why? Rangers get Ram's Might at 1 min/ level.

And what do barbarians get? +10 for 3.30minutes x 7 per rest? Basically they can rage constantly.

C'mon man, +4 stackable STR 1min/level is in no way overpowered.

[llevenbaxx]

Another reason to multiclass a Paladin, huh?

Excellent.

So is anything that a pally short of level20 can get. Hell, even this Righteous Fury is just another reason to MC a paladin, just to a different degree. Let the content justify build choices(pure/MC/w/e), trying to do it with specific "pureclass" only accessible abilities is bad(imo).:)

[Dexxaan]

Lets face it guys, The Paladin class is like a Sack of Potatoes in a Restaurant.

Anything worth making has either Mashed Potatoes, Au Gratin, Fries, Baked Spuds, etc...

But, can you sit down and chow down on Au Gratin or Mashed Potatoes Alone? Not really.

You gotta have Steak, Fish, Lamb or Duck and/or whatever suits you to make a hell of a meal.


So if your gonna keep on whining about Pure Paladin´s not making the cut....remember how you´ll wake up after eating only Au Gratin and no Stroganoff to go with it. :cool:

[elraido]

"Sacred" stacks with "Action Boost" and "Enhancement", as well as "Insight" and any others you might find.

berry nice! So it is sort of along the lines, like I posted.

[Aesop]

Our implementation of Zeal is has changed significantly since then. It's currently a short duration personal effect Sacred bonus to attack speed.

.

That is significantly better thank you

Aesop

[maddmatt70]

Where is this information posted. I can't find it anywhere.. sigh.

Just a comment on adding an attack speed boost to every class. Not a huge fan of that because then all the classes start looking similar and less unique. You can bring pally's dps up in other ways which I think are more interesting. Rangers have tempest, Monks are getting the air stance changed to also increase attack speed and now pally's are getting an attack speed increase. Soon there will not be any difference between the classes and they will all just be vanilla.

[Illuminati]

Where is this information posted. I can't find it anywhere.. sigh.

Just a comment on adding an attack speed boost to every class. Not a huge fan of that because then all the classes start looking similar and less unique. You can bring pally's dps up in other ways which I think is more interesting. Rangers have tempest, Monks are getting the air stance changed to also increase attack speed and now pally's are getting an attack speed increase. Soon there will not be any difference between the classes and they will all just be vanilla.

Not the top secret ultra highest DPS twf 6 Ranger / 6 Monk / 4 Pally!

Fear

[maddmatt70]

Not the top secret ultra highest DPS twf 6 Ranger / 6 Monk / 4 Pally!

Fear

As a matter of fact Illumanti with Eladrin's recent post in your monk build thread which clarfies the stacking of these attack bonuses as multiplicative rather then additive I am not truely sure how great this combo is. Air stance III (monk 11 or 12 currently) will only add 2.5-3.0% actually attack speed with haste and tempest and the 4 pally wouldn't even get the 2nd level pally spell which give you the attack speed boost. My guess is the best dps builds of the future will be something like the 6 ranger 14 barbarian build where you get different kinds of bonuses one being attack speed and another being some kind of damage bonus the best example of this currently in the game is the barbarian, but fighter, etc. could have that type of bonus down the road as well.

[TechNoFear]

Originally Posted by Eladrin
Things that are currently being worked on also include:

Lionheart
Paladin 1
Duration: 24 seconds plus 6 per caster level.
Benefit: Imbues a single ally with great bravery, making them immune to fear.


Ummmm.....What lvl range is this spell aimed at?

I do not think any paladin will use this spell. I do not see any point implementing it.

It is only useful to cast on others (>2 paladins are immune to fear). Better to let the cleric/bard/clicky cast Remove Fear than use the paladin's limited SP on a very low duration spell (< one combat).

A 3rd lvl paladin gives a good bonus to Fear saves (+2 with Courage of Good for one AP) to all in range and is immune to Fear themselves.

A 4-5th lvl paladin will be taking Divine Favor as their only 1st lvl spell (IMO).

6-10 lvl paladins are probably saving SP for Divine Favor / Resists / Divine Sacrafice etc. Their second spell is probably Virtue or CLW. Their aura will help the parties saves and the casters can buff Remove Fear as required. I do not see paladins job as spending most of their SP casting a 60 - 84 sec buff on each member of the party.

11-13 lvl paladins probably have a caster in the party with GH. Their second spell is probably Virtue or CLW.

14-16 lvl paladins probably have a caster in the party with GH. Their second and third spells are probably Virtue or CLW.

Anyone have a different opinion?

[Borror0]

The tons of level 4 characters casting Greater Heroism will indeed be sad.

Yes, but it doesn't really address the issue with paladin which is, not much interesting past level 11.

Unless this is one of many paladin spells, a level 1 spell won't help much. For the short duration, it only acts as Remove Fear, which Remove Fear potions can do also.

[Angelus_dead]

Unless this is one of many paladin spells, a level 1 spell won't help much. For the short duration, it only acts as Remove Fear, which Remove Fear potions can do also.
It'd be good for fighting the bosses of Litany I (level 5 quests). Too bad the reward structure there is flawed, so those quests aren't played at the listed level.

[SteeleTrueheart]

Anyone have a different opinion?

It will come in wand form and will be a paladin spell so essentially Palis will now have access to a low level remove fear wand.

[Borror0]

It will come in wand form and will be a paladin spell so essentially Palis will now have access to a low level remove fear wand.

You mean, besides the fact they can have Remove Fear potions like everyone else?

[SteeleTrueheart]

You mean, besides the fact they can have Remove Fear potions like everyone else?

IIRC Dont wands have a larger casting distance compared to pots? Plus the fact that it will give fear immunity for a time, not too bad for a level 1 spell especially if you compare it to another paladin 1 spell - resistance. A paladin can even use the wand at level 1. A nice alternative to carrying pots. (pots are more expensive as well right?)

I still think this spell will be practically useless, but then I find 90&#37; of paladin spells already in game practically useless.
But as others have said and I agree with: "more spells = more options = good for the game".

Even if I think there are 100 other spells I would implement before this one.

[Borror0]

IIRC Dont wands have a larger casting distance compared to pots?

Well, I can get peopel from pretty far with Remove Curse potions in Vision, so I'd say no.


Plus the fact that it will give fear immunity for a time, not too bad for a level 1 spell especially if you compare it to another paladin 1 spell - resistance.

Remove Fear gives +4 morale bonus to saves versus fear. How likely are you to be hit again by fear with the duration of Lionheart?


(pots are more expensive as well right?)

How many of us really care about money that much?


But as others have said and I agree with: "more spells = more options = good for the game".

That's not a good argument. It's has to be good options, otherwise it's not good for the game. This one is not.

As you said, there are 100 better spells to implement... and those spells would be better for the game as they would represent better options.

[Jondallar]

The tons of level 4 characters casting Greater Heroism will indeed be sad.


well as happy as lvl 4 characters will be this lvl range is not where paladins need help. its at end game that paladins (even multiclass) need help. there have been numerous posts on what spells people would like to see implimented and i am sure you have read them... i guess you just have your agenda and will impliment items as you see fit with limited input from actual paladin players. i was more than pleased with ds /es enhancements, but spells in ddo have really taken a back seat. please please dont waste anymore precious dev time/resourses developing a spell that noone will use.

[Illuminati]

As a matter of fact Illumanti with Eladrin's recent post in your monk build thread which clarfies the stacking of these attack bonuses as multiplicative rather then additive I am not truely sure how great this combo is. Air stance III (monk 11 or 12 currently) will only add 2.5-3.0% actually attack speed with haste and tempest and the 4 pally wouldn't even get the 2nd level pally spell which give you the attack speed boost. My guess is the best dps builds of the future will be something like the 6 ranger 14 barbarian build where you get different kinds of bonuses one being attack speed and another being some kind of damage bonus the best example of this currently in the game is the barbarian, but fighter, etc. could have that type of bonus down the road as well.

The formula he uses is roughly the same. I am saying you are ~40% faster than normal attacking, he is saying you are attacking at ~60% less time, same thing really.

It really boils down to how many attacks in a sequence.

Take a 2HF who gets 5 attacks and 2x glancing blows (ill say the 2x glancing blows = 1 attack for dmg purposes).
This TWF would have 11 attacks in about the same time.

Only prob is you would have to use monk weapons of course, and kamas/quarterstaff need a champion weapon like the Sword of Shadows to pull it off.

As far as Barbs go, the 14/6 will be strong but I think there will be better. Looking at the progression of Critical Rage (11/14), it seems mathmatically they will shoot for something at 20. Granted, I think that Critical Rage will either change to some seeker type effect (since that guys post was deleted, I think he may have had some first hand knowledge) or some good reward at 20.

I really hope we see the cap go to 20 on the next increase since I have a few banked pure classes that need some attention.

[maddmatt70]

The formula he uses is roughly the same. I am saying you are ~40&#37; faster than normal attacking, he is saying you are attacking at ~60% less time, same thing really.



That is not what he says at all when he corrects your post. You used additive 10 (tempest) + 7.5 (air stance III) + 25 (haste)= 42.5% His numbers use the multiplicative property 90% * 92.5% * 75% = 62.5 which when he reversed into attack speed bonus = 37.5%. The additive properties have a 5% greater attack speed. Since DDO utilizes multiplicative every additional type of attack speed bonus adds less per 1% increase then the attack speed bonus applied before it. That is where my comment regarding multiple attack speed bonus comes from. Tempest and haste adds an attack speed of 90% * 75% = 67.5 which in terms of attack speed is 32.5%. So for the 12 levels of monk to get air stance III when added to tempest and haste you only get an attack speed bonus of 5%.

The lesson here from a dps viewpoint is get the best attack speed bonus you can get which is haste and then add a secondary attack speed which is the best bang for your buck and that is 6 levels of ranger for tempest. Then after that go for other dps modifiers then attack speed and the best examples of this in game currently is barbarian with crit rage 1 and crit rage 2. The future could change this as I anticipate other classes getting some better dps modifiers.

This also in part answers the devs views on trying to make pally levels above level 12 more attractive - they are in part making at least from a dps perspective other classes less attractive if you are trying to go for additional attack speed bonuses.

[SteeleTrueheart]

Well, I can get peopel from pretty far with Remove Curse potions in Vision, so I'd say no.

Ahh fear immunity, I have had it so long that I haven't carried a remove fear pot in over a year. I also hold all the other useful wands as well. I so rarely carry pots, except for my haste stash of course :)

Remove Fear gives +4 morale bonus to saves versus fear. How likely are you to be hit again by fear with the duration of Lionheart?

Right now... not that often, but in the future who knows how many mobs may be given fearsome auras or armors. I bet the devs know though and this could be forward planning for all anyone knows. But then everyone knows the quests so well that having fear immunity at level 1 is actually quite useful in and of itself.

How many of us really care about money that much?

Obviously quite a few. They just did a whole series on economics in DDO and plat farmers seem to be making money from this game cos they are still around.

That's not a good argument. It's has to be good options, otherwise it's not good for the game. This one is not.

As you said, there are 100 better spells to implement... and those spells would be better for the game as they would represent better options.

No. Not everything has to be good. If everything was good then good would start to seem normal and everyone wants something better than normal, leading to more powerful abilities. The devs are obviously aware of the power bloat that this game has and have put a stop on the power creep of top levels for the future. They seem to be filling out the middle and lower levels somewhat. Instead of giving more power they are giving more options. This will be a good thing in a d20 system.

Instead of good, everything should be useful, even if it is for rare situations. Lionheart fits this criteria. I will lay a 100k pp bet that paladins will not see Righteous Might in the next few mods if ever.



Replies in Red.

Not arguing just speculating.

[artvan_delet]

Yes, but it doesn't really address the issue with paladin which is, not much interesting past level 11.

Unless this is one of many paladin spells, a level 1 spell won't help much. For the short duration, it only acts as Remove Fear, which Remove Fear potions can do also.

Paladins do just fine up to level 11. After that it's time to multi-class. Borro is correct, spend some time on paladin levels after 11 please.

[Borror0]

Right now... not that often, but in the future who knows how many mobs may be given fearsome auras or armors. I bet the devs know though and this could be forward planning for all anyone knows. But then everyone knows the quests so well that having fear immunity at level 1 is actually quite useful in and of itself.

Well, Fearsome auras and armors, if implemented, will probably be added in high level content. Mostly because if they add more content under level 10, Turbine are addressing the current gaming issues, because what is needed is more high level content. And by then, GH renders Lionheart obsolete. All my characters can cast GH. Borror has Planar Girds. My sorcerer is... well, a sorcerer and thus can scroll it. My bard is a bard who carries both the spell and scrolls. And my future ranger will be able to UMD it.

Yes, they could put a lot of spelling in a dungeon to try to make this very spell more attractive, but then it would only make Reaver Ring, a third paladin level and Shroud items more attractive.


Obviously quite a few. They just did a whole series on economics in DDO and plat farmers seem to be making money from this game cos they are still around.

But potions have soem other advantages than wands don't have. That's why our cleris use Remove Curse options in Vision, rather than wands.


No. Not everything has to be good. If everything was good then good would start to seem normal and everyone wants something better than normal, leading to more powerful abilities. The devs are obviously aware of the power bloat that this game has and have put a stop on the power creep of top levels for the future. They seem to be filling out the middle and lower levels somewhat. Instead of giving more power they are giving more options. This will be a good thing in a d20 system.

Instead of good, everything should be useful, even if it is for rare situations. Lionheart fits this criteria. I will lay a 100k pp bet that paladins will not see Righteous Might in the next fe

hehe, awared of the power bloat?

You're kidding right? The worse thing that happen to this game was Shroud crafting. The pwoer of these items are just stunning. +300 SP annd +6 UMD to my sorcerer? +45 HP? Those are humegeous gains. They stack with everything and cannot be caught on otherwise. Just to give you an idea, +45 HP is almost the same bonus as taking Toughness IV. A human with a +45 HP itme is not much far behind a dwarf without.

The gap is huge between someone who does have an item and someone who doesn't. Never has the gap between powergamers and casual players has been so big.

There's a difference between good and powerful. I have made tons of suggestion of useful spells, without making them 'must haves'. I have no problem with a situational spell, but situtationality doesn't go much far in a game where we repeat the same quest over and over again. We analyze what's good or not and we pick what's best suited. Period.

There is a way to add spells of somewhat similar power that will give you options. If you want to go for that type of build well the following spells are interesting. For that other type, you would want those. Spells are the same as feats. Why would you take 1 or 2 fighter level? Because you want certain feats. Currently, not many reasons to go pure fighter... because there are not enough feats to make it worthwhile. For a paladin, it's the same. All a paladin gets at higher level is extra spell slots. If you don't put spells worth taking in those slots, there are no good eraons to go pure paladin.

Before adding 'situational spells' that can be neat once every 500 quests, you should address the issues at first. Adding a such a spell is detrimental to the game, as the resources spent of thinking it and coding it should have been better spent. Now that it's coded, yeah add it to the game. That spell is fluff. Currently, Turbine can't afford fluff. They need to do react to the issue that past level 11... paladins are... well, you know what I mean.

Fluff is for things are going fine.

[Mhykke]

Before adding 'situational spells' that can be neat once every 500 quests, you should address the issues at first. Adding a such a spell is detrimental to the game, as the resources spent of thinking it and coding it should have been better spent. Now that it's coded, yeah add it to the game. That spell is fluff. Currently, Turbine can't afford fluff. They need to do react to the issue that past level 11... paladins are... well, you know what I mean.

Fluff is for things are going fine.


This is a good point (even though I think the game's fine).

[SteeleTrueheart]

Well, Fearsome auras and armors, if implemented, will probably be added in high level content. Mostly because if they add more content under level 10, Turbine are addressing the current gaming issues, because what is needed is more high level content. And by then, GH renders Lionheart obsolete. All my characters can cast GH. Borror has Planar Girds. My sorcerer is... well, a sorcerer and thus can scroll it. My bard is a bard who carries both the spell and scrolls. And my future ranger will be able to UMD it.

Don't care what characters of yours can cast GH unless they are a low level pali? GH is for character level 9+. Making Lionheart useful until then. Most low level spells are designed specifically with that thought in mind. Useful at low levels. Not everyone has multiple girds. As a level 1 spell I think it actually has uses. Especially since everyone knows where the kobold fear spamming casters appear in WW and everywhere else in the harbour.

Yes, they could put a lot of spelling in a dungeon to try to make this very spell more attractive, but then it would only make Reaver Ring, a third paladin level and Shroud items more attractive.

But potions have soem other advantages than wands don't have. That's why our cleris use Remove Curse options in Vision, rather than wands.

Yes the need to not equip potions is very handy, I would go so far to say a "bit cheesy but everyone is OK with it so lets leave it alone" sort of handy. (You really should have a free hand to use a potion) Vision is the only new quest I have not stepped into yet. Personally I have never seen the Abbot or the Titan either (Too busy levelling up some other lowbies.)

hehe, awared of the power bloat?

Yes. They have admitted that Barb Crit rage was a mistake. The took out the level 4 stat enhancements. (Fighters STR IV etc) The Mod 7 loot is nice but not greatly better than what is already in the game. Some of the new enhancements are OK but have a look at the contraversy that Fighter/Rogue Attack speed boost 1 is mathematically more powerful than Exalted Smite 3. That said they will always make some things more powerful. Us powergamers would leave if they didn't! ;)

You're kidding right? The worse thing that happen to this game was Shroud crafting. The pwoer of these items are just stunning. +300 SP annd +6 UMD to my sorcerer? +45 HP? Those are humegeous gains. They stack with everything and cannot be caught on otherwise. Just to give you an idea, +45 HP is almost the same bonus as taking Toughness IV. A human with a +45 HP itme is not much far behind a dwarf without.

Shroud crafting is available to every single character. No one class or character is left out. It is also only available to level 13+ raid focused players. Those players will always be better than casual players.

The gap is huge between someone who does have an item and someone who doesn't. Never has the gap between powergamers and casual players has been so big.

Casual players do not run the subterrane/vale quests on hard or elite

There's a difference between good and powerful. I have made tons of suggestion of useful spells, without making them 'must haves'. I have no problem with a situational spell, but situtationality doesn't go much far in a game where we repeat the same quest over and over again. We analyze what's good or not and we pick what's best suited. Period.

There is a way to add spells of somewhat similar power that will give you options. If you want to go for that type of build well the following spells are interesting. For that other type, you would want those. Spells are the same as feats. Why would you take 1 or 2 fighter level? Because you want certain feats. Currently, not many reasons to go pure fighter... because there are not enough feats to make it worthwhile. For a paladin, it's the same. All a paladin gets at higher level is extra spell slots. If you don't put spells worth taking in those slots, there are no good eraons to go pure paladin.

Before adding 'situational spells' that can be neat once every 500 quests, you should address the issues at first. Adding a such a spell is detrimental to the game, as the resources spent of thinking it and coding it should have been better spent. Now that it's coded, yeah add it to the game. That spell is fluff. Currently, Turbine can't afford fluff. They need to do react to the issue that past level 11... paladins are... well, you know what I mean.

Fluff is for things are going fine.

I 100% agree more high level boost to Palis is need compared to what they gave. and they definitely need more content.

It is already coded. I can not change that so I am assessing what is rather than what should have been.
I think it will be useful for low levels.
I have already said there were 100 other spells I personally would have developed before this one and I made that view point in the main pali thread and earlier in this thread.

There is always a good reason to go pure on any character class you like. MMO's evolve. I can 100% guarantee that in 12 months time every single class in this game will have changed to some degree. That may mean the higher levels of a class get a boost. But whatever the change is, if I keep my character pure, there will be no reason to re-roll later cos I find re-levelling tedious at best.

[Borror0]

Don't care what characters of yours can cast GH unless they are a low level pali? GH is for character level 9+. Making Lionheart useful until then. Most low level spells are designed specifically with that thought in mind. Useful at low levels. Not everyone has multiple girds.

False. Lionheart is not useful at low level, but to save plat. Such a short duration spell is only useful used on yourself. Problem is, paladins are already immune to fear. It's only there to

Do you know a level 4 paladin would would take Lionheart over Divine Favor? Then, CLW or Virtue is much more attracive as your second level 1 spell, once you get to level 6. At best, you could argue picking it up instead of CLW but then it only proves the lack of useful spells in DDO, rather than proving that the spell was worth implementing.


As a level 1 spell I think it actually has uses. Especially since everyone knows where the kobold fear spamming casters appear in WW and everywhere else in the harbour.

You still run harbor quests at level 4? At level 6?


Yes. They have admitted that Barb Crit rage was a mistake.

But they have introduced Tempest I, Ram's Might... they let rangers get insane AC while TWF while S&B get the shaft.


Some of the new enhancements are OK but have a look at the contraversy that Fighter/Rogue Attack speed boost 1 is mathematically more powerful than Exalted Smite 3.

Again, all that falls appart when you look at what rangers got. Either they nerf... and they have to nerf A LOT of stuff, or they make everyone more powerful. Yes, Critical Rage II made barbarians ultrapowerful... but so did Tempest and Ram's Might. If they want to bring everyone to the same level, they have two choices:

Either they do a drastic change to the enhancement system.
Either they give every class a boost.

It is clear they went with option #2. So, fighters and paladins need their boost. The faster, the better.


Shroud crafting is available to every single character. No one class or character is left out. It is also only available to level 13+ raid focused players.

So, we're discussing power bloat, right? Well, gear is power bloat.


Those players will always be better than casual players.

That's not revelant, actually. Before, the gap was much smaller. Now, it's huge. I can see it as I get bound gear for my characters.

My sorc going from 1900ish to 2300ish SPs.
From 178 HP to 269 HP.
UMD going from 30 to 38.

Those aren't small improvements. Sorry, they aren't awared of it.

Oh, and while I'm at it, such a huge gap is bad for the game.


Casual players do not run the subterrane/vale quests on hard or elite

Sorry, I don't see your point there.


It is already coded. I can not change that so I am assessing what is rather than what should have been.

I'm telling to whoever made that decision, that he is doing it wrong.


There is always a good reason to go pure on any character class you like. MMO's evolve. I can 100% guarantee that in 12 months time every single class in this game will have changed to some degree. That may mean the higher levels of a class get a boost. But whatever the change is, if I keep my character pure, there will be no reason to re-roll later cos I find re-levelling tedious at best.

Sorry, but that's not true.

Yes, MMO evolve, but your pure character is no more safe than a multiclassed character. As you said, MMOs evolve. So, today your pure paladin sucks. Tomorrow, he may rock and the day after, he'll suck again. Joe's multiclassed paladin may rock today, may suck tomorrow and may suck the day after. You can't tell.

All you can be sure of, is what rock now.

[Angelus_dead]

Do you know a level 4 paladin would would take Lionheart over Divine Favor? Then, CLW or Virtue is much more attracive as your second level 1 spell, once you get to level 6. At best, you could argue picking it up instead of CLW but then it only proves the lack of useful spells in DDO, rather than proving that the spell was worth implementing.
If they're competent, Lionheart was a matter of 60 minutes real work (most of that artist-time, which is cheaper than programmer time). Something that easy is almost always worth it, and a spell is more useful than most other additions you could make in that time.

Having it in the game, at least, could lead to some handy low-level named loot, or something. And in the unlikely event some high level quest is added featuring monsters who spam Greater Dispel and Fear, it might be helpful.

[Borror0]

If they're competent, Lionheart was a matter of 60 minutes real work (most of that artist-time, which is cheaper than programmer time). Something that easy is almost always worth it, and a spell is more useful than most other additions you could make in that time.

Hopefuly, you're right on that. I'm not a programmer, so I cannot talk for that.


And in the unlikely event some high level quest is added featuring monsters who spam Greater Dispel and Fear, it might be helpful.

That would only make Fear Immunity items and splashing three level of paladin more attractive.

I would be revelant if paladins were not already immune to fear.

[elraido]

You're kidding right? The worse thing that happen to this game was Shroud crafting. The pwoer of these items are just stunning. +300 SP annd +6 UMD to my sorcerer? +45 HP? Those are humegeous gains. They stack with everything and cannot be caught on otherwise. Just to give you an idea, +45 HP is almost the same bonus as taking Toughness IV. A human with a +45 HP itme is not much far behind a dwarf without.

The gap is huge between someone who does have an item and someone who doesn't. Never has the gap between powergamers and casual players has been so big.

I have to agree with that 100%. While I am not a power gamer, I am past a casual gamer. I have been playing since a month or two since launch with only a 2 month "break" from the game while trying to play on dial up :D That didn't go over so well. But anywhos.....The power gamer have multiple Tier III items that are cleansed....I am still working on my first one. I had to trade a banishing rapier to get the larges I needed to try and keep up with the power gamers. I read threads all the time where people are saying well just make this tier III double shard item and make that tier III item and you will be good for a bit. These people don't realize the resources needed to do this for some people. They don't have 9 capped toons and the hours upon hours to run the shroud to get the larges they need. And odds are, they don't have the loot to trade for those larges either.

[SteeleTrueheart]

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteeleTrueheart
Casual players do not run the subterrane/vale quests on hard or elite

Sorry, I don't see your point there.

To do these quests at these levels you need the gear. Caual players and elite players rarely run together so the power gap doesn't matter so much. There is not a quest in the game that can not be completed on normal by a casual group with normal gear. (Raids excluded)


Quote:
Originally Posted by SteeleTrueheart
As a level 1 spell I think it actually has uses. Especially since everyone knows where the kobold fear spamming casters appear in WW and everywhere else in the harbour.

You still run harbor quests at level 4? At level 6?

Sigh..... it will be on a wand. Paladins will be able to use those wands at level 1. Did I make that clear for you. Never will a paladin actually load the spell. But they will use it. Just as they use remove curse and lesser restore without ever loading them. More than likely this spell may even come in Potion form, unless they dont want to completely devalue remove curse pots.


I'm telling to whoever made that decision, that he is doing it wrong.

Please dont Dev bash. Your opinion on how to do things is uninformed and has no idea of the long term goals of this game.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Angelus_dead
If they're competent, Lionheart was a matter of 60 minutes real work (most of that artist-time, which is cheaper than programmer time). Something that easy is almost always worth it, and a spell is more useful than most other additions you could make in that time.

Hopefuly, you're right on that. I'm not a programmer, so I cannot talk for that.

Yet you are specifically saying that they wasted their time. It probably was only 60 minutes of work and that is why they are adding it, because it took no effort to create it in the first place.

[Borror0]

To do these quests at these levels you need the gear. Caual players and elite players rarely run together so the power gap doesn't matter so much. There is not a quest in the game that can not be completed on normal by a casual group with normal gear. (Raids excluded)

So? Better gears make everything easier. And yes, causal and powergamers play together a lot.

They would play even more together if the gap wasn't so big. In this instance, I'm refering to casual gamers by mentality and by hours of playtime per week.


Sigh..... it will be on a wand. Paladins will be able to use those wands at level 1. Did I make that clear for you. Never will a paladin actually load the spell. But they will use it. Just as they use remove curse and lesser restore without ever loading them.

Since this spell is a paladin only spell, you will only be able to use wands of it at level 4.


Just as they use remove curse and lesser restore without ever loading them. More than likely this spell may even come in Potion form, unless they dont want to completely devalue remove curse pots.

Great, so everyone has access to it? Furthermore useless to help paladins.


[...] unless they dont want to completely devalue remove curse pots.

You mean Remove Fear, right?


Please dont Dev bash. Your opinion on how to do things is uninformed and has no idea of the long term goals of this game.

I'm not for bashing the developers, I think it's pointless.

But really, when as a customer you're unsastisfied of the job they are doing, you can let them know. Of course, there is a way to do it and pointlessly yelling and insulting them is not the way. However, I'm not insulting them. I'm not telling them they are incompetent. All I'm saying is "That spell wasn't really needed." or, if you prefer, "It was a bad idea." It's not impolite, it's not disrespectful. Everyone makes mistakes once in a while, or as we say, "The only ones who never make a mistake are those who do nothing."

Are you insinuating we should only complement them? Because that would be doing them a huge disservice.

You may be right that I don't know what their plan are, long terms, but the reason Turbine owns these forums is so they can get our fedback. I'm giving them mine. I may be helpful, or I may be speaking for nothing because they have a masterplan to use that very spell. But going from what I know, here is my feedback.


Yet you are specifically saying that they wasted their time. It probably was only 60 minutes of work and that is why they are adding it, because it took no effort to create it in the first place.

Do you work at Turbine? Neither of us knows how long it took.

[SteeleTrueheart]

Since this spell is a paladin only spell, you will only be able to use wands of it at level 4.

You have a pali splash on Borror. You should know better. It does not work that way with wands. A level 1 paladin can use any wand that is on the Paladin spell list as long as he meets the level requirement. All my first level Palis run around with CLW wands. Unless they only make them caster level 4 wands due to it being a paladin specific spell? Thinking about it I have never seen a virtue wand so maybe it will not be available in wand form at all. If not this spell just became useless.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SteeleTrueheart
[...] unless they dont want to completely devalue remove curse pots.

You mean Remove Fear, right?

Yes I did, forgive my stupidity, but it is 2am here :)


Do you work at Turbine? Neither of us knows how long it took.

If it is like my work it probably was coded in 30 minutes, discussed at 10 meetings, reworked 3-4 times, told by a middle manager to make it more exciting, told by a higher manager to make it simpler, told by a network guy to lay of the spell lighting effect to make it less bandwidth intensive, had the QA testers put their input on the colour scheme and then have it all converted back into the original coding done in the first 30 minutes. Your lucky if lunch takes 60 minutes. A spell... never. ;)

[stockwizard5]

Simple Changes - Reason to go past Pally 11 - Ungimp the class

Here's a simple dumb idea to give you the concept ...

Paladin Level 12: Inherant Good (adds "good" effect to attacks)
Paladin Level 16: Inherant Holy
Paladin Level 20: Inherant Holy Burst

[Borror0]

Unless they only make them caster level 4 wands due to it being a paladin specific spell?

At what level can you use CMW wands? You'll have your answer there.

[elraido]

I really want a new lvl 4 spell. Have they made a new once since we could cast them? :confused:

[Alcides]

But really, when as a customer you're unsastisfied of the job they are doing, you can let them know. Of course, there is a way to do it and pointlessly yelling and insulting them is not the way. However, I'm not insulting them. I'm not telling them they are incompetent. All I'm saying is "That spell wasn't really needed." or, if you prefer, "It was a bad idea." It's not impolite, it's not disrespectful. Everyone makes mistakes once in a while, or as we say, "The only ones who never make a mistake are those who do nothing."

Well this wouldn't be the first time they still don't quite get it right with Paladin spells.
1. Divine Favor was ninja nerfed. I don't mind having to cast another spell say Righteous Fury to gain back the power loss while appeasing the rules lawyers and Wizards of the Coast.
2. Angelskin was added some time back. I never usedthis spell because it has a short duration, and it's DR is too situational.
3. Lionheart giving Fear Immunity is pretty good for a level 1 spell. I think if it's duration where a minute / level this spell would be a lot better.
4. Zeal giving attack speed is fine, but very reminiscent of the Paladin Zeal Skill from Diablo 2. Although it's better than nothing.

[GhostNull]

Question is, will Zeal still give a movement speed increase and the +4 Deflection bonus as well as the new attack speed increase?