Endgame AC - what lvl to make it a dump stat?

[BigBadBarry]

Interested in peoples take on at what AC does it become pretty pointless at end game and you might as well shelves the chaodguard, put away the +5 prot item because they are still going to hit you anyway?

So talking end game lvl 16 content (Vale, Shroud, Subterraen).

Talking personally my TWF dwarven fighter hit's around 45-48 AC and I'm really starting to wonder if this is kind of pointless and I should switch out his AC items for other items (eg drop Chaosguards for Hound Str Bracers...drop +5 Prot item for Hitpoint crafted item)

Thoughts/Comments?

[Tanka]

The breaking point hits right when you're running GH quests on Elite. If you're not hitting ~50 then, start getting out your survivability gear rather than your AC gear.

Shroud runs take ~60 AC for a 5% hit rate, VoD/Hound takes ~63.

I don't play an AC build, but these are the numbers I've seen fairly consistently from those I do run with.

[boldarblood]

Interested in peoples take on at what AC does it become pretty pointless at end game and you might as well shelves the chaodguard, put away the +5 prot item because they are still going to hit you anyway?

So talking end game lvl 16 content (Vale, Shroud, Subterraen).

Talking personally my TWF dwarven fighter hit's around 45-48 AC and I'm really starting to wonder if this is kind of pointless and I should switch out his AC items for other items (eg drop Chaosguards for Hound Str Bracers...drop +5 Prot item for Hitpoint crafted item)

Thoughts/Comments?


Agree with Tanka.

Giant Hold Elite -- 50+
Vale and beyond - 60+

Your much better served with damage mitigation (blur/stoneskin/resists/displacement etc)

I would go for the other items you were talking about personally.

Leveling up AC is important, end game is not nearly as important unless you get to extreme levels

[Blazer]

Tanka's numbers are pretty spot on, but keep in mind the numbers he's posting are when you attempt to become nearly untouchable. If you can in the 50s for the Shroud, most things will miss you more often than not. Ditto for the underground stuff, though that needs more like mid50s than low50s. I think the part that some people miss is AC isn't really an "all or nothing" thing, meaning, if you can get it to the point where stuff misses you half the time, that's actually helpful, too.

[Theboz]

Ac in the 70's you can tank part 4 of the shroud, by yourself( orthons and devils)and not get hit at all, unless they roll a 20

[Amabel]

The breaking point hits right when you're running GH quests on Elite. If you're not hitting ~50 then, start getting out your survivability gear rather than your AC gear.

Shroud runs take ~60 AC for a 5% hit rate, VoD/Hound takes ~63.

I don't play an AC build, but these are the numbers I've seen fairly consistently from those I do run with.

Sweet, this is really useful information.

[Aranticus]

The breaking point hits right when you're running GH quests on Elite. If you're not hitting ~50 then, start getting out your survivability gear rather than your AC gear.

Shroud runs take ~60 AC for a 5% hit rate, VoD/Hound takes ~63.

I don't play an AC build, but these are the numbers I've seen fairly consistently from those I do run with.

in vod my fighter can tank the 4 orthons with 60 ac. sally needs prolly 65

[BigBadBarry]

Tanka's numbers are pretty spot on, but keep in mind the numbers he's posting are when you attempt to become nearly untouchable. If you can in the 50s for the Shroud, most things will miss you more often than not. Ditto for the underground stuff, though that needs more like mid50s than low50s. I think the part that some people miss is AC isn't really an "all or nothing" thing, meaning, if you can get it to the point where stuff misses you half the time, that's actually helpful, too.


Thanks Blazer..this is basically my question...at what point does it become completly useless. A 30% chance of the mob missing mean it's still worth keeping some AC.

So we might be saying if you can't get to 50+AC then once you hit the vale having a 20 AC is as good as 49AC so you might as well wear robes as it's the same.

[BigBadBarry]

in vod my fighter can tank the 4 orthons with 60 ac. sally needs prolly 65

Doesn't quite answer my question Aranticus so let me ask you one instead...

If your tank could only get to 55 AC would you stop bothering with his +5MFP and +5 protection item?
53AC?
50AC?
45AC?

I'm after the bottom point against the junk mobs where you might as well not bother - not the top point against the red named bosses.

[Aranticus]

Doesn't quite answer my question Aranticus so let me ask you one instead...

If your tank could only get to 55 AC would you stop bothering with his +5MFP and +5 protection item?
53AC?
50AC?
45AC?

I'm after the bottom point against the junk mobs where you might as well not bother - not the top point against the red named bosses.

i wasnt really answering your question but to confirm the numbers. ac still has it uses but alot of people are deluded thinking 50 ac is good ac. infact 50 ac doesnt cut it in the end stuff. that said, 50 ac is good for the trogs in shroud. while it doesnt quite protect you against the orthons or devils, any reduction of damage from any source is good. more damage avoided helps the party. every contribution helps

[Strykersz]

Doesn't quite answer my question Aranticus so let me ask you one instead...

If your tank could only get to 55 AC would you stop bothering with his +5MFP and +5 protection item?
53AC?
50AC?
45AC?

I'm after the bottom point against the junk mobs where you might as well not bother - not the top point against the red named bosses.

The response question is, of course, what are you getting instead of that +5mfp and +5 prot item?

[Ranmaru2]

My paladin loves her Stonemeld Plate! That DR 5/- has saved me so many times I can't even count! Sometimes I'd rather sacrifice AC for survivability, as I don't really care to have a twinked AC build. Requires too much effort to find all the gear required for that :eek:

[HumanJHawkins]

Shroud runs take ~60 AC for a 5% hit rate, VoD/Hound takes ~63.

Here's what I don't get about people's claims of AC being useless... If a 60 AC in the shroud gives you a 5% hit rate, then a 41 or lower is useless. 42 gives you a 95% to get hit... 43 Makes it 90%, etc.

Everyone is so thrilled about getting blur to get a 20% miss rate right? Well, a 45 AC then is equivalent to having permanent blur on (In addition to the regular blur you might also get.) And, we are talking about tanking Harry in the Shroud here... That means you are going to have a LOT higher chance of avoiding damage on any other quest except VOD or The Hound.

So I guess if you can't get a 45 or so, and all you run is the top level raids, then yeah. Get rid of your AC. But a 45 is pretty easy to get, and even in the Shroud, there are plenty of things with a lower to hit than Harry.

FYI, my AC build has a 46 totally unbuffed at level 11. I took him out in the Orchard to try it out. He is quite survivable as a solo tank out there... Yeah, I have to take it slower than I like, so it isn't as fun as a solo Sorc. But my non-AC TWF build had a lot more trouble at lvl 16 than my lvl 11 does right now.

Final note. I play a Cleric too. AC definitely matters most of the time. I've had plenty of times where two roughly equal tanks are in group, except one has AC and the other doesn't. The guy with no AC will always claim that he is taking more damage because he is drawing agro. I find it funny though that when they split up and have their own seperate mobs, the no AC guy is still a mana sponge, and the other guy getting attacked just as much is still not getting hit.

My 2 cents.

[Aranticus]

My paladin loves her Stonemeld Plate! That DR 5/- has saved me so many times I can't even count! Sometimes I'd rather sacrifice AC for survivability, as I don't really care to have a twinked AC build. Requires too much effort to find all the gear required for that :eek:

if you cant get high AC, then DR is better. a 60 ac melee will not need DR

[maddmatt70]

The breaking point hits right when you're running GH quests on Elite. If you're not hitting ~50 then, start getting out your survivability gear rather than your AC gear.

Shroud runs take ~60 AC for a 5% hit rate, VoD/Hound takes ~63.

I don't play an AC build, but these are the numbers I've seen fairly consistently from those I do run with.

Bah, not useful without a better breakdown.. Need a real break down of red named, trash mobs, and raid bosses. If any of those groups miss 10% of the time because of ac (rolling a 1 or a 2 on attack rolls) and you don't have anything better to put on its worth it to go ac. Then it is a cost/benefit breakdown. For instance is this guard I could throw on which adds 4.5 points of damage when I am hit better then an extra 5% miss due to ac for red names how about a 15%, 25%, etc. My gut feeling is that high 40s in vod/hound does help especially against those trash mobs, but even vs. the red named orthons in vod, 50ish ac is probably where the big guy in the raids starts missing...

[Tanka]

Seeing as how I've never had an AC character, I can't tell you what the breakdowns are.

And, generally, if you're not building for AC, then it's not worthwhile to raid for the AC gear.

So, yeah, I could say "Sally takes X, the Elite Orthons take Y and the Bearded Devils take Z." But I don't know those numbers. I can hit maybe mid-40s on a great day on Tanka, and that's in the Breastplate of Destruction. I'd rather have the higher HP and saves than have the higher AC.

From L1-~10, go for AC. If you're a Barb, find the highest +MFP you can, same with Fighters and Pallies. Get a shield. A Protection item. Carry Barkskin.

But after 10, if you aren't building yourself into an AC tank, then you may as well drop all that stuff. Forget about Bark, forget about your shield, forget about the deflection bonus. Because if you're not built for AC and you're still trying to maintain that 40 AC in a quest that needs 60+ to even be useful, you're being more of a detriment to the party than a boon.

[Aranticus]

Bah, not useful without a better breakdown.. Need a real break down of red named, trash mobs, and raid bosses. If any of those groups miss 10% of the time because of ac (rolling a 1 or a 2 on attack rolls) and you don't have anything better to put on its worth it to go ac. Then it is a cost/benefit breakdown. For instance is this guard I could throw on which adds 4.5 points of damage when I am hit better then an extra 5% miss due to ac for red names how about a 15%, 25%, etc. My gut feeling is that high 40s in vod/hound does help especially against those trash mobs, but even vs. the red named orthons in vod, 50ish ac is probably where the big guy in the raids starts missing...

norg, we were in vod together. shugar was buffed up to 60 ac and tanked 3 orthons w/o suffering much damage. so i suppose at 60 ac, they need a 20 to hit. sally otoh, needs prolly 65-70 ac which means anywere below 46-51 ac is useless

[Riot]

To hit the untouchable range here's my estimate.

GH Normal = 50
GH Elite = 55

Shroud in general = 60
Shroud Big Red = 70

Subteranean = 60
VoD = 65
Xyzzy = 60


Bump the Shroud and Subteranean up by about 7-8 For Elite.

For Shroud & Subteranean:
Bottom line is if you don't have an AC over 45, don't bother. otherwise every point actually does help.

[Zenako]

As someone who often plays a healer in those types of situations, AC still matters. There are a lot of non boss mobs in every quest you have to defeat along the way, and all the avoided damage adds up. Sure maybe everyone can stay healed, but if the healer did not have to cast 6 Mass cure earlier in the quest, perhaps they won't have to be hitting the scroll or pot stacks later on. It is pretty easy to see who has any sort of defense going when you are really watching the red bars of the whole team.

As mentioned it is not too hard to get to mid 40's and I can see a difference in the damage mitigation over the span of a quest from those who have that or better and those who do not. If all you can hit is something in the low to mid 30's, yah, probably getting missed only on 1's anyway. So don't bother.

Often however I find those who tout AC as not mattering generally also want to have a healer on an IV tether to them to make that play style viable. When running end game content with good AC builds, sure it might take a little longer to defeat some mobs, but I can also say it is a lot less stressful and expensive to tend the flock. (A few specific fights excepted in this preference namely a couple of major endbosses we all know....)

[Naso24]

I have a followup question. if you decide to drop AC for other effects. What damage or other effects will go off on a hit?

I've heard that lesser guard and guard, i.e., fire, do not both hit.

1. What if you have good, acid, electric, sonic, bramble casters, etc.? Do they all bite back?
2. What is the max damage output per damage taken, counting shroud crafted items, including tier 3 bonuses?

3. If you have a cloak of curses and the demonic consort bracers, do they each contribute a chance to curse on being hit? Is it possible for the enemy to do 2 rolls on a single strike?

4. Do all these effects still work if shield blocking and you take no damage?

Thanks for the feedback, this topic is very helpful. Shooting for mid 60's AC on my tempest monk hybrid build, with upper 70's possible if party buffed.

[Thrudh]

If you've never had a character with a decent AC, then don't bother posting about how AC is worthless... because you don't know...

We have to break it down more... People are saying you need 50 AC to not get hit in Gianthold (except on a 20), well then a 40 AC (easy to achieve) is a 50% miss rate... That's pretty good...

People say you need a 60 AC to not get hit in the Shroud... well then a 50 AC is pretty good there...

I'm really surprised some of you AC guys haven't gone out into the various areas, and collected data... Maybe tonight I'll do that...

My barbarian/fighter switches between AC and DPS... AC at end-game against the trash mobs is very useful... because most of the time, you're using a vorpal anyway... My guy can get to 50 AC on his own unbuffed, and it DOES make a difference... I get hit much less than when I'm raging and swinging the big axe.... There are many situations where killing fast with the great axe is the smarter move, but there are also times, when turtling up, intimidating everything, and swinging a vorpal makes sense too...

I'll head into Gianthold and the Vale quests tonight and try to get some real numbers...

[Riot]

People say you need a 60 AC to not get hit in the Shroud... well then a 50 AC is pretty good there...

yes.. and No...

If you are getting hit for 40-60 damage and you have 200 HP.... Getting hit at a 50% rate is Not good.
Sure it's better than a 40% rate. But still. The time difference between that and getting hit every single time is still within the recycle time of a Heal spell.

The more damage per hit, the Less you want to get hit.

It's not as simple as chalking it up to being at "half an optimal AC" is "ok".

imho, if yer shooting for acceptability, you want in the top 25% of the hit range, and the lower you are in that area the more HP/DR you want.

[binnsr]

I have a followup question. if you decide to drop AC for other effects. What damage or other effects will go off on a hit?

I've heard that lesser guard and guard, i.e., fire, do not both hit.

1. What if you have good, acid, electric, sonic, bramble casters, etc.? Do they all bite back?
2. What is the max damage output per damage taken, counting shroud crafted items, including tier 3 bonuses?

3. If you have a cloak of curses and the demonic consort bracers, do they each contribute a chance to curse on being hit? Is it possible for the enemy to do 2 rolls on a single strike?

4. Do all these effects still work if shield blocking and you take no damage?

Thanks for the feedback, this topic is very helpful. Shooting for mid 60's AC on my tempest monk hybrid build, with upper 70's possible if party buffed.

Multiple guard items work together, but I don't think that multiple items of the same time (i.e. lesser fire guard and fire guard) work together.
It is possible to shield-block and have all the incoming damage be blocked while whittling down the enemy via guard -- I have a guildie who used to sit out in the Orchard in his Black Dragon armor with a Madstone shield and let the undead kill themselves..

[Aranticus]

If you've never had a character with a decent AC, then don't bother posting about how AC is worthless... because you don't know...

We have to break it down more... People are saying you need 50 AC to not get hit in Gianthold (except on a 20), well then a 40 AC (easy to achieve) is a 50% miss rate... That's pretty good...

People say you need a 60 AC to not get hit in the Shroud... well then a 50 AC is pretty good there...

I'm really surprised some of you AC guys haven't gone out into the various areas, and collected data... Maybe tonight I'll do that...

My barbarian/fighter switches between AC and DPS... AC at end-game against the trash mobs is very useful... because most of the time, you're using a vorpal anyway... My guy can get to 50 AC on his own unbuffed, and it DOES make a difference... I get hit much less than when I'm raging and swinging the big axe.... There are many situations where killing fast with the great axe is the smarter move, but there are also times, when turtling up, intimidating everything, and swinging a vorpal makes sense too...

I'll head into Gianthold and the Vale quests tonight and try to get some real numbers...

it can be tough to analyse the data in quests such as vod. everything is in a whirl. there is simply no time to sit down and go thru the load of data. in addition, above a certain limit, the text is cut off. what we do is to estimate. ie if the mob swings 6 times and u get hit once, then the rate is 1/6 or approx 18% then convert this to AC value

[Zenako]

it can be tough to analyse the data in quests such as vod. everything is in a whirl. there is simply no time to sit down and go thru the load of data. in addition, above a certain limit, the text is cut off. what we do is to estimate. ie if the mob swings 6 times and u get hit once, then the rate is 1/6 or approx 18% then convert this to AC value

and very few people are willing to use raid environments as a test bed....

However, you can find locations to work on most of the mobs in a test environment, just not THE mobs. And if you can assume that every CR22 Orthon is pretty much the same, then you make some pretty good estimates. What does pose issues is making sure that the scaling between N/H/E is determined.

[Riggs]

People who say ac is useless most of the time have not played a character with ac, and most likely have never played a cleric either. People who have played both notice the HUGE difference in healing the ac tank - who kills stuff a bit slower than the 'ubah 700 hp big axe killah'.

The high hp no ac character needs a cleric strapped to his back to work, and really only kills stuff somewhat faster. 5-10 more damage per swing say is nice, but there is a massive difference between getting hit 100% of the time and even 50% of the time.

People who argue against ac always drag out the 'well against the last red name in the game you need xx, or else dont bother'. When 99% of the game your NOT fighting the raid boss - your flagging for raids, your beating up the minions getting to the last part etc. And in 99% of those other situations - ac matters. No a 30 is no good - but 45+ makes a big difference.

If you beg for blur for its 20% miss chance - then +4 ac which - unless you run around with under 30 ac, is going to provide the same benefit. 10 ac less than the maximum miss chance is still a 50% miss rate - all the time.

Yes if you build a 200 hp ac character your going to get plastered still when you do get hit, because heavy hitters will knock you down fast. But my ac dwarf ranger say is running around with a 389 hp pool - and he stays alive a LOT longer than 500+ hp tanks that brag about their hit points - but then cry for healing when their red bar drops to half in about 5 seconds of combat.

A high hp build needs a healer spamming heal on them to get their uber dps - or else if the cleric is busy for even a few seconds - they have top start running away drinking potions to stay alive - and running away drinking potions = 0 dps.

A normal shroud, with a debuffed Big Red - hit me once, and only once in all of part 5. Without ce up, and no shield, just a 60ish ac. He hits more when not debuffed (a big incentive to bring a good wiz and skip all the high mana sorcs that dont have any debuffs cause they are 'nukers'),

I have two clerics. My clerics hate low ac 'tanks'. I cant cast offensive spells, can barely spend time healing other party members, and cant even think about swinging his vorp because I am spamming heals on the guy with no ac. When playing with good ac types, they still kill stuff, maybe a bit slower (but a two weapon rapier ranger will stat damage most anything to death way faster usually) but I measure a quest by how much fun I am having (and dying is not fun either), not whether it takes 18 minutes to do something or 19-20. I have a lot more fun if I get to swing weapons and cast spells at monsters - not stay glued to the back of the low ac barb for the entire quest - so playing with higher ac types is usually a lot more fun. And many quests require splitting up for some reason, or just have people in different rooms, or whatever. I have a lot more fun when I know the other guy can kill stuff in his area - and not be dead in 5 seconds - than playing with the guy who needs to be babysat the entire quest, and have to res and rebuff the guy who died cause you left him alone for a bit.

Saying soemone should wear a hp item instead of a +5 ac item only matters if you have an ac so low that everything in the game will hit you all the time. And my 33 ac wiz can get a lot of things to miss when he buffs up to 37-40 ac with group buffs.

If something hits for 20-40 damage per hit, then even having it miss 1 in 20 means your taking as much less damage for having that 1 extra ac as all the hp in a tier 3 item together. There is something to be said for having a hp cushion so you dont get dropped in 3 hits - but any melee should be at 300+ hit points really. So what is better? Adding an item that means you can soak up 1 extra hit? or wearing an item that means you get hit 20% less - or wearing several that means you get hit 50% less? Those misses add up to a LOT of heals the cleric DOESNT have to spam on you to keep you alive.

So yeah pretty much anyone, with a bit of effort, can hit a 35-40 ac, and more with good group buffs. So unless your wiz is tanking a red name, barks and recitation and bard inspire heroics is going to make a big difference - to the clerics, in about 95% of quests and content.

Anyone who thinks ac still doesnt matter really should roll up a cleric. And maybe ask why figuring out that; misses = staying alive longer to do damage is such a hard concept to grasp.

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

To hit the untouchable range here's my estimate.

GH Normal = 50
GH Elite = 55

Shroud in general = 60
Shroud Big Red = 70

Subteranean = 60
VoD = 65
Xyzzy = 60


Bump the Shroud and Subteranean up by about 7-8 For Elite.

For Shroud & Subteranean:
Bottom line is if you don't have an AC over 45, don't bother. otherwise every point actually does help.

It's good to see a thread that actually advocates high AC, and I agree with those numbers - on normal, I believe Harry's to-hit is +51 making his 'untouchable' AC 70.

I often see posts saying 'AC is meaningless' and really it's not, but I've only really noticed myself since I got my monk's AC up to a (shield clicky boosted) 73 (need a chattering ring still) and at that level nothing hits except on a 20 - it's great fun to play even though my dps does suffer as a result. The problem with the d20 system is that the range of 'decent' AC is a narrow range only 20 ticks wide - it's saddening that while 70 is 'untouchable', 50 is totally meaningless...

Nevertheless, AC is very situational, there's not much point having that much AC vs Harry for example, when the cleric is likely to be mass healing anyway - it is useful vs Sally though, if you can hold her agro - or vs the elite Orthons in VoD if you have the intimidate to drag them over. AC is nothing without being able to use it for something useful, and of course it's great fun when soloing stuff.

On a related topic - the named Orthon Lieutenant in part 2 of the Shroud just cuts straight through my AC regardless of how high I get it - someone in group told me there was a bug with cleave/glancing blows or something...? Does anyone else have this problem?

Garth

[Blazer]

On a related topic - the named Orthon Lieutenant in part 2 of the Shroud just cuts straight through my AC regardless of how high I get it - someone in group told me there was a bug with cleave/glancing blows or something...? Does anyone else have this problem?

Not that I've seen when I'm on my tank. She's off timer tomorrow, I can double-check at that time, if we get lucky enough to have the Orthon drop.

[sirgog]

To hit the untouchable range here's my estimate.

GH Normal = 50
GH Elite = 55

Shroud in general = 60
Shroud Big Red = 70

Subteranean = 60
VoD = 65
Xyzzy = 60


Bump the Shroud and Subteranean up by about 7-8 For Elite.

For Shroud & Subteranean:
Bottom line is if you don't have an AC over 45, don't bother. otherwise every point actually does help.


Thanks for that info, Riot.

Only thing that sounds a little off to me is the numbers for GH - I recall being belted up a moderate amount on a 50 AC character there on Normal. That character was below level 11, and so didn't have Heavy Fort, but they got hurt a bit more than your numbers would have suggested.

Maybe I'm wrong, and the damage was coming from spells - might have to dig that toon out of the 'retired' basket and test a little more.

[Riot]

I don't think 50 pegs the mobs, but it comes close.

And for the record, Big Red on Elite. yer looking at a close to 80 AC for the untouchable range.
We noticed quite the difference last night once you hit around 74 AC the shift in damage dropped a good bit.

And if the Glancing Blows numbers apply to mobs as well, that could explain why we get hit sometimes when we think we've got the mob burried under nat 20's to hit.

[Zenako]

People who say ac is useless most of the time have not played a character with ac, and most likely have never played a cleric either. People who have played both notice the HUGE difference in healing the ac tank - who kills stuff a bit slower than the 'ubah 700 hp big axe killah'.
.
.
.
.

So yeah pretty much anyone, with a bit of effort, can hit a 35-40 ac, and more with good group buffs. So unless your wiz is tanking a red name, barks and recitation and bard inspire heroics is going to make a big difference - to the clerics, in about 95% of quests and content.

Anyone who thinks ac still doesnt matter really should roll up a cleric. And maybe ask why figuring out that; misses = staying alive longer to do damage is such a hard concept to grasp.

Well said Riggs, and it echoes the observations of many healers. It holds true at all character levels, but in some ways even more so at low to mid levels since it is possible to very much out AC the mobs to-hit at those points since armor has low ML specs. Running around with level 4-5's and having mid 30's AC can make a lot of those level quests quite peaceful for a healer.

[The_Phenx]

Thanks Blazer..this is basically my question...at what point does it become completly useless. A 30% chance of the mob missing mean it's still worth keeping some AC.

So we might be saying if you can't get to 50+AC then once you hit the vale having a 20 AC is as good as 49AC so you might as well wear robes as it's the same.

Nah.

I run around with a 46 ish dual weilding (give or take two depending on gear/buffs) in the shroud... and Its about a 50-75% miss rate. Still very worth having... 40 is the breaking point its when your only blocking 25% of the swings if your lucky. at that point just go nude.

[rawfocat]

One point to remake. In GH, if 55 is "untouchable" than 45 is 50% miss rate. So saying AC is worthless and ditching the armor and prot item is a mistake IMO. No it is not the elite AC and you will get hit, but a 50% hit rate versus a 95% hit rate is still a big deal.

[gfunk]

Not sure that the 70 number is required. I have been in with a 60 ac and have not been touched during the round (maybe the +51 estimate for Harry is a touch high?). That said, Harry doesn't seem to attack all that much anymore, and evasion mitigates most of the fire damage. I would say that if you have AC from the uppermost 50's and higher and you have evasion, then its probably ok to go in on part 4 (just keep an eye on your combat log/hp meter to make sure you aren't being a drain on the clerics).

On a side/related note, i was in a shroud pug run a couple weeks ago where all the healer types died in the first 2 rounds leaving 2 fighters, a ranger (me), a barb and a wizi (not a umd healing type). Took 4 more rounds to beat him down, but the interesting thing was that 1 of the fighters survived till the end, and the other made it for 3 or the rounds (i think they were both non evasion types and were doing a really stellar job of chugging prot pots). Conclusion?: its not the end even when Harry has a whack of HP, and your clerics are dead.

[Illuminati]

Remember, cleave and Gcleave is at the highest attack bonus.

A dev posted that the non-Red named Orthon in there has a 50 Attack Bonus. So we can surmise that the Red Named has around a 52-55 Attack Bonus. So it probably is starting with a +60 and rolling a d20 (though I think mobs have static attacks and bonuses.)


It's good to see a thread that actually advocates high AC, and I agree with those numbers - on normal, I believe Harry's to-hit is +51 making his 'untouchable' AC 70.

I often see posts saying 'AC is meaningless' and really it's not, but I've only really noticed myself since I got my monk's AC up to a (shield clicky boosted) 73 (need a chattering ring still) and at that level nothing hits except on a 20 - it's great fun to play even though my dps does suffer as a result. The problem with the d20 system is that the range of 'decent' AC is a narrow range only 20 ticks wide - it's saddening that while 70 is 'untouchable', 50 is totally meaningless...

Nevertheless, AC is very situational, there's not much point having that much AC vs Harry for example, when the cleric is likely to be mass healing anyway - it is useful vs Sally though, if you can hold her agro - or vs the elite Orthons in VoD if you have the intimidate to drag them over. AC is nothing without being able to use it for something useful, and of course it's great fun when soloing stuff.

On a related topic - the named Orthon Lieutenant in part 2 of the Shroud just cuts straight through my AC regardless of how high I get it - someone in group told me there was a bug with cleave/glancing blows or something...? Does anyone else have this problem?

Garth

[Raithe]

Too many people are oversimplifying the problem.

1) If your melee kills twice as fast using two weapons (or a 2-handed weapon), then having up to 10 less AC for that purpose is often more efficient. No, you can't withstand a beatdown from more than a couple of mobs like that - but then encounters in this game are seldom more than 4 mobs at a time, and there are usually at least 4 PCs in a quest.

2) If someone isn't constantly supplying your melee with displacement and stoneskin, the caster in your party is going to have far better damage mitigation than you if you are sitting at a 50% hit-rate AC, especially since he can do what he does while jumping and running around. Your purpose for being in most quests has now kind of gone kapooey.

3) Gameplay balance FTW. The PCs have to buff up extensively (with spells/songs) to hit the high to-hit numbers. Mobs should have to do the same.

There is a significant problem with AC range and mob to-hits in this game. Most people saying otherwise are simply trying to enforce a playstyle or justify a character build.

[jkm]

On a related topic - the named Orthon Lieutenant in part 2 of the Shroud just cuts straight through my AC regardless of how high I get it - someone in group told me there was a bug with cleave/glancing blows or something...? Does anyone else have this problem?

Garth

i think its related to how they fixed the pillar bug. its almost like when they cleave, they take the first ac in the cleave arc and if they hit it, they hit everything in the path. i've had the dragon miss my 8 AC sorc 4 times and yet get the **** kicked out of my ac rogue...

[Illuminati]

i think its related to how they fixed the pillar bug. its almost like when they cleave, they take the first ac in the cleave arc and if they hit it, they hit everything in the path. i've had the dragon miss my 8 AC sorc 4 times and yet get the **** kicked out of my ac rogue...

Yeah, I thought that too but last night when we fought Sally I noticed his cleave hitting people other than me (that were on either side).

There is something fishy though =)

I wonder if mobs roll d20's...

[Venar]

AC is usefull if you are fighting things.
If you are a caster or any other stand back role, then sure, walk around with 11 AC.
But to be in the frey, AC is good, even at mid-levels.

When i log my rogue, he stands at 29.
Then i put on my UMD +8 bracers, and i'm at 37.
Then i equip my shroud weapon and i'm at 41.
Then i turn on CE to get 46.
Before buffs. With paladin, bards, haste, buffs, barksin, yadi yadi yada, i usually travel with around 50 ac.


I SEE A DIFFERENCE.

When i go hunt chests in the vale, i know if i forgot my bracers immediatly. I know if CE is on. Heck, i notice a difference when i drink a BS potion.

The more the better, period.
Because mobs to-hit is ever-changing. Are you moving? Is the mob debbufed? Are you swarmed? Are you flanked? Is the mob blinded? Weakened?

The game is very dynamic. But if you plan on melee, then AC is not a dump stat.

[jkm]

Yeah, I thought that too but last night when we fought Sally I noticed his cleave hitting people other than me (that were on either side).

There is something fishy though =)

I wonder if mobs roll d20's...

yeah, but who is to say that you are the first ac in the cleave arc (especially if they are using great cleave with a 270)? if you are the center of his aggro then there is still 90/135 degrees on your left that would be the start of the arc...

[Thrudh]

I SEE A DIFFERENCE.

This is exactly right... My ranger runs around with a mid-to-high 40s too... I've been doing the Vale quests for ingrediants (on normal or hard depending on the group), and I too SEE THE DIFFERENCE if I'm not wearing my 8 AC bracers...

A couple of times, I'm like "What the hell is going on? I'm getting my ass kicked here".... Check my inventory... "Ah, I'm wearing one of my bracer clickables instead of my armor bracers..."

Not scientific, not a good breakdown of numbers (I'd still like to do that for you all this week if I can find time)...

But everytime I leave the bracers off, I notice the difference... so in the end-game quests, mid-high 40s DOES make a difference.

[Illuminati]

yeah, but who is to say that you are the first ac in the cleave arc (especially if they are using great cleave with a 270)? if you are the center of his aggro then there is still 90/135 degrees on your left that would be the start of the arc...

I wasn't really hit that much so I bet its just their attack bonus is at a high + w/ cleave and great cleave.

If their base is 50 and they get a +10, then a +60 and a d20 are enough to hit 99% of the people out there but it still leaves some at 65ish, a 25% chance not to get hit.

Man, I know they don't do the Weekly Dev Posts anymore but I do like the 'how stuff works in this game' dev respones.

So Dev's, how are mobs attack rolls done? =p

[Riot]

Yeah, I thought that too but last night when we fought Sally I noticed his cleave hitting people other than me (that were on either side).

There is something fishy though =)

HEY.. Don't look at me, I was 180 degrees from you on that run. Look at Khrom!!! He's the bloodbag!

[oogly54]

Too many people are oversimplifying the problem.

1) If your melee kills twice as fast using two weapons (or a 2-handed weapon), then having up to 10 less AC for that purpose is often more efficient. No, you can't withstand a beatdown from more than a couple of mobs like that - but then encounters in this game are seldom more than 4 mobs at a time, and there are usually at least 4 PCs in a quest.

The difference between a two handed weapona dn a sword and board is NOT a big differene. No where near a twice as fast to kill. Don't confuse the class and race abilities with the weapon type. The only difference between a two handed sword and a one hander is the +5 from power attack, str bonus, and the base damage.

Comparing +4 icy burst of pure good weapons. Using a fighter with a 32 STR. Non-Crit Pocs not added due to the fact there is no difference in damage between weapons.


greataxe
1d12 20/x3
+4 Modifier
11 (x1.5=16) Str bonus/two handed
10 Power Attack
2 Weapon Spec
2 Greater Weap Spec
6 bloodstone
+6 Bard Buffs
------------
1d12+46 = 47 - 58 (x3) = 141 - 174
+ 1d6 frost = ~3.5
+ 1d6 pure good = ~3.5
+ 2d10 icy burst = ~10
----------------------
total = 4-32 from procs (avg. = 24 )
Grand Total On Crit: 145 - 206 = average of 175


greatsword
2d6 19-20/x2
+4 Modifier
11 (x1.5=16) Str bonus/two handed
10 Power Attack
2 Weapon Spec
2 Greater Weap Spec
6 bloodstone
+6 Bard Buffs
------------
2D6+46 = 48 - 58 (x2) = 96 - 116

+ 1d6 frost = ~3.5
+ 1d6 pure good = ~3.5
+ 1d10 icy burst = ~10
----------------------
total = 3-22 from procs (avg. = 18 )
Grand Total On Crit: 99 - 138 = average of 118

FALCHION
2D4 18-20/x2 Falchion
+4 Falchion
11 (x1.5=16) Str bonus/two handed
10 Power Attack
2 Weapon Spec
2 Greater Weap Spec
6 bloodstone
+6 Bard Buffs
------------
2D4+46 = 48 - 54 (x2) = 96 - 108

+ 1d6 frost = ~3.5
+ 1d6 pure good = ~3.5
+ 1d10 icy burst = ~10
----------------------
total = 3-22 from procs (avg. = 18 )
Grand Total On Crit: 99 - 130 = average of 114

KHOPESH
1d8 Khopesh 19-20/X3
+4 Khopesh enh
11 Str bonus
5 Power Attack
2 Weapon Spec
2 Greater Weap Spec
6 bloodstone
6 Bard Buffs
------------
1d8+36 = 37 - 44 (x3) = 111 - 132

+ 1d6 frost = ~3.5
+ 1d6 pure good = ~3.5
+ 2d10 icy burst = ~16
----------------------
total = 4-32 from procs (avg. = 24)
Grand Total On Crit: 115 - 164 = average of 148

SCIMITAR
1D6 Scimitar 18-20/x2
+4 weapon attribute
11 Str bonus
5 Power Attack
2 Weapon Spec
2 Greater Weap Spec
6 bloodstone
+6 Bard Buffs
------------
1D6+36 = 37 - 42 (x2) = 74 - 84

+ 1d6 frost = ~3.5
+ 1d6 pure good = ~3.5
+ 1d10 icy burst = ~10
----------------------
total = 3-22 from procs (avg. = 18 )
Grand Total On Crit: 77 - 106 = average of 92/crit

Heavy Pick
1D6 Pick 20/X4
+4 weapon attribute
11 Str bonus
5 Power Attack
2 Weapon Spec
2 Greater Weap Spec
6 bloodstone
+6 Bard Buffs
------------
1D6+36 = 37 - 42 (x4) = 148 - 168

+ 1d6 frost = ~3.5
+ 1d6 pure good = ~3.5
+ 3d10 icy burst = ~10
----------------------
total = 5-42 from procs
Grand Total On Crit: 153 - 210 = average of 181/crit

Average NON-crit with the falchion is a 51, 40 for a scimitar, and 41 for a khopesh. The falchion and scimitar will crit 30% of the time and the Khopesh will 20%, ETC. ETC.. On 20 attacks


AVERAGE DAMAGE OF TWENTY ATTACKS W/ IMP. CRIT.:
Falchion
51x14=714
114x6=684
total of 1398 damage

Greatsword
53x16=848
118x4=472
total of 1320 damage

Greataxe
52x18=936
175x2=350
total of 1286 damage

Khopesh
41x16=656
140x4=560
total of 1216 damage

Scimitar
40x14=560
92x6=552
total of 1112 damage

Heavy Pick
40x18=720
181x2=362
total of 1082 damage


AVERAGE DAMAGE OF TWENTY ATTACKS W/ IMP. CRIT. AND BARBARIAN CRIT RAGE:
Falchion
51x12=612
114x8=912
total of 1524 damage

Greatsword
53x14=742
118x6=708
total of 1450 damage

Greataxe
52x16=832
175x4=700
total of 1532 damage

Khopesh
43x14=602
148x6=888
total of 1490 damage

Scimitar
40x12=480
92x8=736
total of 1216 damage

Heavy Pick
40x16= 640
181x4=724
total of 1364 damage

IMO, the best tank in the game would be an AC based barbarian that uses a Khopesh. I have talked about making one of these for a long time but never have. The khopesh is only slightly behind the falchion and great axe, but I would give up the small amount of damage for the huge difference in damage mitigation. I would like to make a Barb/fighter mix, for the highest AC and the most DPS with AC. If they would just give the fighter some love with weapons master, you wouldnt need to multiclass to do this. I know someone is going to bring up the ranger to weapon fighting DPS, well that is all fine in dandy, but you have low AC and low HP. Taking aggro might not be a good thing.

[Aranticus]

Not sure that the 70 number is required. I have been in with a 60 ac and have not been touched during the round (maybe the +51 estimate for Harry is a touch high?). That said, Harry doesn't seem to attack all that much anymore, and evasion mitigates most of the fire damage. I would say that if you have AC from the uppermost 50's and higher and you have evasion, then its probably ok to go in on part 4 (just keep an eye on your combat log/hp meter to make sure you aren't being a drain on the clerics).

On a side/related note, i was in a shroud pug run a couple weeks ago where all the healer types died in the first 2 rounds leaving 2 fighters, a ranger (me), a barb and a wizi (not a umd healing type). Took 4 more rounds to beat him down, but the interesting thing was that 1 of the fighters survived till the end, and the other made it for 3 or the rounds (i think they were both non evasion types and were doing a really stellar job of chugging prot pots). Conclusion?: its not the end even when Harry has a whack of HP, and your clerics are dead.

part 4 is not the best place to test ac as you can stand out of reach of the fiend and yet continue to inflict damage on it