Please, stop posting build with the character planner layout!

[Borror0]

Yes, Ron made a wonderful tool.

Yes, It's quite handy to make a character.

But!!! When you're posting it on the forums, you probably want feedback. A build posted with the character planner is horribly hard to analyze. You have to scroll up and down for feats, look level by level for skills, if the enhancements where picked along the way we have to look at what was chosen. Then, we have to check at your starting stats... and figure out what are you end game stats. If you care about AC, we have to add it up for you. Then, we might want to do it for your HP and saves to have a good idea of what it will be.

Then, there is the issue of a build without text/comments... which makes a build hard to analyze too.

Sorry, I had to get out of my chest.
I hate, hate, hate to check a build made with the character planner.

Borror0

PS: Again, I use the character planner and love it... but reading a build with that layout is horribly frustrating.

[geoffhanna]

While I completely appreciate this argument, it would be stronger if there was a suggestion about what to post instead of the Planner output.

[cdbd3rd]

While I completely appreciate this argument, it would be stronger if there was a suggestion about what to post instead of the Planner output.



...perhaps a nudge Ron's way to consider adding a 'concise summary output' of some sort. Maybe? Dunno what would be the best for someone trying to dissect a build, so no suggestions here either other than just that generally.

When I've used the planner, it makes sense to me because I'm right there as the character builds level by level. Looking at the final full output of an unfamiliar character can be confusing.

[Aspenor]

you're not the boss 'a me!!!!!!!

[cdbd3rd]

you're not the boss 'a me!!!!!!!

LOL!

Well, he did say "please"... ;)

[Borror0]

While I completely appreciate this argument, it would be stronger if there was a suggestion about what to post instead of the Planner output.

Well, I can always give my layout as an example.


First, I start with comments about the build. What I want of the build. Do I want high AC, or do I want to dump it totally. UMD? Trapskills? Got 32 point buy, or you're stuck at 28? Is there anything we should know about the playstyle. Maybe it's a solo chracter. Maybe it's for a dedicated group. Telling us more about the goals you have in mind will help us giving the proper feedback.

[end game level break up] (example: 15 ranger/1 fighter)
Race:
Alignment:

Stats:
18 Str + 6 item + 4 level + 2 tome = 30 Str
8 Dex
18 Con + 6 item + 2 tome = 26 Con
8 Int
8 Wis
8 Cha

Any comment about your stats that can be helppful should be added.

Feats:

1. Uber feat #1
3. Uber feat #2
6. Uber feat #3
9. Uber feat #4
12. Uber feat #5
15. Uber feat #6
15. Uber feat #7 (fighter)

Level order should go here.

Favored enemies for rangers should also be listed here.

Armor Class:
If you care at all about AC, list it here. Otherwise, don't bother with it.

Try to divide the AC in at least three columns:

Unbuffed
Self-buffed
Burst

While maximum AC in the perfect party-make-up may make you feel uber, it is totally unhelpful. Same to know you can reach XX AC while you have your Action Boost or Uncanny Dodge active. While those are high numbers, their value is laughable at best. what really matters is knowing where you'l be 90+% of the time. This is where stuff like being part of a dedicated groups comes into play.

Skills:

Breakdown of skills that needs to be broke down like UMD, Intimidate, Disable Device, Open Lock, Search, Spot, etc.
No one really cares about your end game Jump score, but knowing how high your UMD, Intimidate or rogue skills will be at matters.

You can do a level by level distribution of your skills, but that's optional.

UMD:

19 Ranks
-1 Charisma bonus
3 Golden Cartouche
2 Head of Good Fortune
4 Greater Heroism
27 UMD


Intimidate:
19 Ranks
-1 Charisma bonus
15 Intimidate Helm
2 Head of Good Fortune
4 Greater Heroism
39 Intimidate

Hit points:

Tell us if you're confortable with the amount. Only Include buffs you can maintain the whole quest.
Knowing your HPs with double Madtsone is not helpful... even less if you're a sorcerer.


Saving throws:

Base Saves: +99 +99 +99
Enhanced abilites: +0 +0 +0
Luck bonus: +0 +0 +0
DSD: +0 +0 +0
Resistance: +0 +0 +0
Total Saves: +99 +99 +99

Satisfied about the saves?! Other things not taken into consideration.

At the end, you can add your concerns overall about the build. What you want us to check more. If you wonder if +50 Intimidate is enough for [insert goal in here]. You may (or not) list your eng game gear, etc.

It's not perfect, there are other ways to do it... but it contains a lot more information... and it's much, much easier to look at.

[Dawnblade]

My guess is that people don't want to type more than they think they have to. The builder does it for them so they stick with what is easier for them. In the end it's their lost if they don't want to make it easier for the reader though.

So it's cool to show people the "best" way to do it. But if they don't want to just skip to the next build thread with a clearer layout.

[Borror0]

My guess is that people don't want to type more than they think they have to. The builder does it for them so they stick with what is easier for them. In the end it's their lost if they don't want to make it easier for the reader though.

Oh, I understand that... but don't be surprised when you receive less feedback.


So it's cool to show people the "best" way to do it. But if they don't want to just skip to the next build thread with a clearer layout.

It's not the "best" (it would be pretencious to assume so), but clearly a better way to do it.

And yes, that's what I do. But I feel bad for not helping the guy looking for feedback... even more when I receive a PM asking for help or when the OP or even the thread title contains my name. I'll probably look at the base stats, level distibution and replies. That's all. Whatever else there is, I won't look at it. Looking at a fighter when you have to scroll down to check all the feats is very, very painful and frustrating... if you didn't know.

[Borror0]

you're not the boss 'a me!!!!!!!

Aspenor, corner! Stop acting like you're tough and uber.;)

[Dawnblade]

Just make a standarized reply letting them know it would be easier to read their build if they didn't use the builder and copy and paste that reply to any thread that does it. If they OP is really looking to get the best feedback he'll try to make it easier for people to do so....or at least I would hope.

I agree with you by the way. Looking at builds inside that little box is annoying.

[Borror0]

I agree with you by the way. Looking at builds inside that little box is annoying.

Some understood that the box is frustrating and copy/paste whatever was in the box out of the code tags. Problem is, the lack of layout still makes it hard to read.

[VonBek]

IIRC, Sigtrent uses an MS Word Doc to prep builds prior to posting. Makes me wonder if Ron could manage an "output file as" function. Perhaps with a couple of branches for "lump things this way", or "lump things that way". Leave the editing fanciness up to the user.

The idea gives Ron one suggestion, while providing users some basic options for presentation.

If any of the above has merit to someone, feel free to flesh it out.

[Shima-ra]

/clap loudly

I completly agree with Borror0

[ariel7]

Yes, Ron made a wonderful tool.

Yes, It's quite handy to make a character.

But!!! When you're posting it on the forums, you probably want feedback. A build posted with the character planner is horribly hard to analyze. You have to scroll up and down for feats, look level by level for skills, if the enhancements where picked along the way we have to look at what was chosen. Then, we have to check at your starting stats... and figure out what are you end game stats. If you care about AC, we have to add it up for you. Then, we might want to do it for your HP and saves to have a good idea of what it will be.

Then, there is the issue of a build without text/comments... which makes a build hard to analyze too.

Sorry, I had to get out of my chest.
I hate, hate, hate to check a build made with the character planner.

Borror0


PS: Again, I use the character planner and love it... but reading a build with that layout is horribly frustrating.


Sorry, don't think your layout is any better, will continue using the character planner. Not sure if you realize this, but in your layout there was scrolling involved. FWIW, I like it, and will use it until I think something is better. I don't really care if that means one or two people don't give feedback.

[branmakmuffin]

I hate, hate, hate to check a build made with the character planner.
Then stop doing it.

[Borror0]

Sorry, don't think your layout is any better, will continue using the character planner. Not sure if you realize this, but in your layout there was scrolling involved. FWIW, I like it, and will use it until I think something is better. I don't really care if that means one or two people don't give feedback.

There was scrolling, but only for each seperate part.

In my format, you can see all the feats without scrolling once! If you're using the character planner, it goes like this:

Ok, does he have Combat Expertise?
*scroll, scroll, scroll* Err.... no... *scroll, scroll, scroll*
Oh, he has 13 Int.
Ok, what about WF, GWF, WS and GWS
*scroll, scroll, scroll*
Ok, he has them... what about Dodge now.
*scroll, scroll, scroll*
Dah, he doesn't have enough Dex.
Ok, what about the other feats.
*scroll, scroll, scroll* Ok he has this and this...
*scroll, scroll, scroll* Oh, and that...
*scroll, scroll, scroll* Does he have that? *scroll, scroll, scroll*

Then, possibly the same for enhancements!

That's painful.

Then, I have figure out your saves, AC and HP!!! Trust me, if you like character planner, that means you have never analysed someone else's build.

[Illuminati]

I agree. TBH, I get quite a few emails, etc. a week to check out builds and I hate looking at those things. Id' rather they just copy paste the build.

[Borror0]

Then stop doing it.

People are asking me to check their build via PMs.

[DaveyCrockett]

Then stop doing it.

That is very nonconstructive. Borroro is one that people would WANT to check their builds.
All he is trying to accomplish is a guideline for posting builds that we can all agree on, and currently the Character Planner is not preferred. Perhaps we can get Ron to output something that is a 'standard'.

[Dawnblade]

Then stop doing it.

Always so enlightening!

[silverraven]

I believe that what he' saying is. If you want anybody to give their feedback, put a little effort into giving the info. If someone's gonna put their free time into feedback, then help make it as quick and as easy as possible, for them to do so.:)

[Borror0]

I believe that what he' saying is. If you want anybody to give their feedback, put a little effort into giving the info. If someone's gonna put their free time into feedback, then help make it as quick and as easy as possible, for them to do so.:)

That's about right.

But also, if you put more information... we're going to be able to give better feedback as we're going to have a better picture of the build and what you want/expect of it. If we have the HP, AC and saves... we'll have a fairly good idea of how it'll perform at end game. The rest, like DPS, is easy to guess by looking at the feats taken.

[transtemporal]

There was a couple of things that I liked out of some of Nick's/Sigtrents layouts too:

A couple of bullet points at the start for the goals of the character; e.g. 500+ HP, AC50000 etc etc
Notes about playing in different "modes"; e.g. nuker mode, melee mode
Highlights and weaknesses
Class Feats & level feats in a different colour in bold


Puts the build decisions in context and tells you what this build will be good at and not so good.

[Ron]

This issue has come up every once in a while. I'm always happy to make modifications to the code, and I've gone through the output a couple of times trying to make it better (i.e. easier to read). This is why I put in a whole host of checkboxes that let you specifiy exactly what you want to output, and even two presets! They were a ton of work, and I've found that absolutely nobody uses them. Everyone uses the default output, heh. Oh well.

The thing of it is, Borror0, the output has to satisfy two different things, and they are almost mutually exclusive, which makes things a bit tough. There are two reasons people output characters to the forum. The first is for feedback. For this, you don't necessarily need to display every skill-up or every spell taken. You are probably interested in the feats, stats, what stats were raised at 4,8,12,16, and so on. In addition, it's probably better to group them in that manner (as you say) so that people can easily see what feats you took over the life of the build. Or what enhancements, or whatever.

The other reason is for build reproduction. Which is to say, here is a build, this is what you need to do at each level in order to reproduce this build. In that sort of output you need a level by level breakdown, and it needs to detail every step. This is the method the planner has used. The reason being that the first method wouldn't work at all for the second, while the second works for the first (albiet, as you say, in a somewhat less than ideal manner in that you have to scroll around a bit).

By the way, the code boxes were added by request to keep the length of the post down. Not everyone likes them, I understand that. But if they weren't there, I'd get just as many complaints about how the planner output bloats forum posts. What are ya gonna do? Can't win either way :)

We're coming up on version 3.00 of the planner, so it's a good opportunity to make modifications. If you guys want to give me an output you think is better, AND satisfies the two criteria we have for output, I'll put it in. I'd be happy to! :) If we all want to come up with a consensus, that would be even better. We can't make everyone happy, but maybe we can make MORE people happy with it than we have now, heh.

[Kaldaka]

Trust me, if you like character planner, that means you have never analysed someone else's build.

Bor, I'm with you here bro ....

Using it for my own builds is very helpful. Using it for other's build analyzation is another thing ...

I think the problem might be that it comes through as a scrolling window inside Internet Explorer.

[ArkoHighStar]

Then stop doing it.

helpful as ever I see

[hydra_ex]

/sign

I lay out my builds kind of like illu does, very easy to read :)

Good to know that people do what I do (I was pretty sure they used it... but couldn't be positive...)

[Yaga_Nub]

Aspenor, corner! Stop acting like you're tough and uber.;)

Nobody puts Asp in the corner!

[DaveyCrockett]

Nobody puts Asp in the corner!

You really don't remember your prom night, do you? :p

[Ron]

Let me make comments as it pertains to coding and use. I like the format in general, but I see issues.

Issue #1 is that is does not satisty the second criteria (which is build reproduction).

Would you guys prefer, maybe, having two totally different sets of output? One for build reproduction (which stays essentially the same as it is now), and another closer to Borror0's format for build feedback? That might be a possibility to think about.


Well, I can always give my layout as an example.
First, I start with comments about the build. What I want of the build. Do I want high AC, or do I want to dump it totally. UMD? Trapskills? Got 32 point buy, or you're stuck at 28? Is there anything we should know about the playstyle. Maybe it's a solo chracter. Maybe it's for a dedicated group. Telling us more about the goals you have in mind will help us giving the proper feedback.


Obviously, this one's up to the user. The builder can't do it for you. Although I suppose there COULD be a section in the planner for "notes". Or, we just leave it up to the poster to fill them in.



[end game level break up] (example: 15 ranger/1 fighter)
Race:
Alignment:

Stats:
18 Str + 6 item + 4 level + 2 tome = 30 Str
8 Dex
18 Con + 6 item + 2 tome = 26 Con
8 Int
8 Wis
8 Cha

Any comment about your stats that can be helppful should be added.

Alright, first issue. "+6 item". I have tried to add in equipment to the planner, with varying levels of success. But it does require the user to add in their equipment, and I've found a lot of people don't really bother (which, to be honest, is the big reason it hasn't been much of a priority). We could, alternatively, just give them a +0 to +6 option for each stat for equipment bonus.



Feats:

1. Uber feat #1
3. Uber feat #2
6. Uber feat #3
9. Uber feat #4
12. Uber feat #5
15. Uber feat #6
15. Uber feat #7 (fighter)

Level order should go here.

Favored enemies for rangers should also be listed here.

No issues here, looks good, and the planner could do this already with it's existing code.



Armor Class:
If you care at all about AC, list it here. Otherwise, don't bother with it.

Try to divide the AC in at least three columns:

Unbuffed
Self-buffed
Burst

While maximum AC in the perfect party-make-up may make you feel uber, it is totally unhelpful. Same to know you can reach XX AC while you have your Action Boost or Uncanny Dodge active. While those are high numbers, their value is laughable at best. what really matters is knowing where you'l be 90+% of the time. This is where stuff like being part of a dedicated groups comes into play.

This would require some major coding. There is an AC calculator in the program, but it's not so good right now. Breaking things up like this would be quite a bit of effort invested in new and updated code (not saying that it couldn't be done, or even shouldn't be done, just saying, heh).



Skills:

Breakdown of skills that needs to be broke down like UMD, Intimidate, Disable Device, Open Lock, Search, Spot, etc.
No one really cares about your end game Jump score, but knowing how high your UMD, Intimidate or rogue skills will be at matters.

You can do a level by level distribution of your skills, but that's optional.

UMD:

19 Ranks
-1 Charisma bonus
3 Golden Cartouche
2 Head of Good Fortune
4 Greater Heroism
27 UMD


Intimidate:
19 Ranks
-1 Charisma bonus
15 Intimidate Helm
2 Head of Good Fortune
4 Greater Heroism
39 Intimidate


Again, more equipment. Plus the situational bonuses. You see the problem I'm faced with. How do we get this equipment on the list? What bonuses do we display? Do we give a list of possible bonuses for each skill and let the user decide which ones to show? For that matter, how do we know what skills to display at all? Set up a series of 20 checkboxes?

The thing you have to remember, the harder it is to set up, the less it will be used. I see a potential UI nightmare here. There are too many variables. People won't use it. Already they don't use the output options I give them, and they are just a few checkboxes.

I think perhaps you may get an idea of WHY the forum output is in the format it's in, heh. But I'm open to suggestions.

The format you suggest would require some MAJOR revamps, not only to the output code, but to various parts of the planner, and I get a bad feeling it could get really complicated really fast for the users.

BTW, Borror0, someone has suggested adding a wiki style output as an option. It seems like a good idea to me. But I'm not a wiki expert. Would you be interested in collaberating on creating such an output?

[GeneralDiomedes]

The biggest improvement to readability would be to list feats/enhancements/etc. separately instead of listing it within each level. If people want to add more detail, then at least the have a readable skeleton to work with. If strict adherance to progression reproduction is still desired, then simply offer multiple output options.

Another suggestion to improve readability would be to omit the granted class feats.

[Ron]

The biggest improvement to readability would be to list feats/enhancements/etc. separately instead of listing it within each level. If people want to add more detail, then at least the have a readable skeleton to work with. If strict adherance to progression reproduction is still desired, then simply offer multiple output options.
Alright, doable. We split the output into two branches (three if we decide to do the wiki thing). Any other suggestions?


Another suggestion to improve readability would be to omit the granted class feats.
Already possible via checkbox. You see what I mean when I say that nobody uses the options that are already there :)

[Tanka]

A delineated output would be nice, yes, but it'd have to be something standard and not "check here for Option A, check here for B, check here for both, check here for..." That gets too overwhelming for the basic user and, well, some of us are lazy and would rather just copy/paste something than go through all those motions. Plus it's a nightmare on the UI.

One suggestion is something as minimal as Borro's output, and also adding in an Enhancement section where it says what Enhancement was taken at what level.

The gear part would be difficult to work in. Ron has been trying for a while, but with minimal success.

The other reason Ron's planner works well? Because not everybody knows HP/saves progression. His planner automates that, though it doesn't take into account items (which a knowledgeable user can add themselves, but a regular one probably won't ever bother).

So, yeah, the UI does make for hard build critiquing, but it also makes it easier for people to automate templates.

[GeneralDiomedes]

Alright, doable. We split the output into two branches (three if we decide to do the wiki thing). Any other suggestions?


I think that would be great just by itself, as most folks tend to post their builds that way nowadays.

[Missing_Minds]

Alright, doable. We split the output into two branches (three if we decide to do the wiki thing). Any other suggestions?

You could have a box for "click here to make forum readable output" that isn't default, but would auto select the options deemed wanted for build critics.

[ariel7]

Trust me, if you like character planner, that means you have never analysed someone else's build.

No, I don't think that's logical or true. It's certainly untrue, as I've analyzed other people's builds. For the most part I don't mind scrolling but I am used to working out problems using several different pieces of paper, and researching small points in different locations. The files (of builds posted in here) are really long, but I don't really think there is something that I've seen that is in an easier to read format that for whatever reason, suits my own preferences.

[RTN]

Alright, first issue. "+6 item". I have tried to add in equipment to the planner, with varying levels of success. But it does require the user to add in their equipment, and I've found a lot of people don't really bother (which, to be honest, is the big reason it hasn't been much of a priority). We could, alternatively, just give them a +0 to +6 option for each stat for equipment bonus.


Yes, please, I beg you!!! I could care less about adding named gear (except maybe raid gear w/ multiple things it affects). I'd dearly love to just have the ability to just add a +0 to +6. I'd prefer to be able to do that on a slot (i.e., select gloves, then STR then +5), but I'd take it anywhere I can get it, so long as it is reflected on saves, skills, etc.

Edit: And just let me say that I use your planner before making any character and find it extremely useful. That should preface any suggestion made. I really appreciate the time and effort you've put into this!

[Borror0]

The thing of it is, Borror0, the output has to satisfy two different things, and they are almost mutually exclusive, which makes things a bit tough.

Yeah, two option is definitively the way to go.


We can't make everyone happy, but maybe we can make MORE people happy with it than we have now, heh.

Agreed.


Would you guys prefer, maybe, having two totally different sets of output? One for build reproduction (which stays essentially the same as it is now), and another closer to Borror0's format for build feedback? That might be a possibility to think about.

It's definetively the way to go, in my eyes.

Something like:

Forum export (build reproduction)
Forum export (build presentation)

Obviously, this one's up to the user. The builder can't do it for you. Although I suppose there COULD be a section in the planner for "notes". Or, we just leave it up to the poster to fill them in.

Nah, don't bother with that. That was me adressing another issue with build presentation.


Alright, first issue. "+6 item". I have tried to add in equipment to the planner, with varying levels of success. But it does require the user to add in their equipment, and I've found a lot of people don't really bother (which, to be honest, is the big reason it hasn't been much of a priority). We could, alternatively, just give them a +0 to +6 option for each stat for equipment bonus.

How about a "Modify stats" tab where we could check spells or items we want. Sorted by bonus type.


No issues here, looks good, and the planner could do this already with it's existing code.

I would have bee surprised if it would have been an issue.


This would require some major coding. There is an AC calculator in the program, but it's not so good right now. Breaking things up like this would be quite a bit of effort invested in new and updated code (not saying that it couldn't be done, or even shouldn't be done, just saying, heh).

Same, what about an AC calculator. Period. You check what you want. I could help you making sure everything is there, if ya want.

You'd "just" have to code it.

Besides, the "burst" section can easily be dumped. 99% of the forum readers don't care about that, and even if they do, they will see either Uncanny Dodge or AC boost in the feat or enhancement section. If you want, we can discuss about that via IM. I got Skype or MSN... if I'm unclear.


Again, more equipment. Plus the situational bonuses. You see the problem I'm faced with. How do we get this equipment on the list? What bonuses do we display? Do we give a list of possible bonuses for each skill and let the user decide which ones to show? For that matter, how do we know what skills to display at all? Set up a series of 20 checkboxes?

Imagine the current skill tab, but with an extra column. That column will be for item. the rest are all bonus to all skills.

I can think of ONE exception... the bracers from Reaver. That's all.


BTW, Borror0, someone has suggested adding a wiki style output as an option. It seems like a good idea to me. But I'm not a wiki expert. Would you be interested in collaberating on creating such an output?

I don't mind helping but I don't see the use to it myself. Anyway, wiki syntax is really easy... and in doubts, HTML works.

[Borror0]

No, I don't think that's logical or true. It's certainly untrue, as I've analyzed other people's builds. For the most part I don't mind scrolling but I am used to working out problems using several different pieces of paper, and researching small points in different locations. The files (of builds posted in here) are really long, but I don't really think there is something that I've seen that is in an easier to read format that for whatever reason, suits my own preferences.

You're one of a few.

Just look at the comments on this thread, and a lot of people agree. Maybe you could take a little bit of time and do it, and it make a lot of forum readers' job much easier. Maybe you see no differences, but a lot of people see it. If you would take a bit more time to make it easier for us to read, you'd get more feedback. After all, you're posting it for people to see... rather than for yourself.

[ariel7]

You're one of a few.

Just look at the comments on this thread, and a lot of people agree. Maybe you could take a little bit of time and do it, and it make a lot of forum readers' job much easier. Maybe you see no differences, but a lot of people see it. If you would take a bit more time to make it easier for us to read, you'd get more feedback. After all, you're posting it for people to see... rather than for yourself.

Well, I will see about working on a template myself...see if I can bring something tangible to the table.

My main (I suppose) deficiency in this is a lack of programming and html type knowledge. I spent a few summers with my grand-father's sister who was researching for a book of hers, and have "old-school" research habits...so even when I posted that picture in another thread...that took a little learning how to do it lol. I will put forth an effort, though, see what I can come up with.

[Aeneas]

I agree, but refuse to read everyone else's comments already. So, here's what i want people to post for their new builds.

What i need to see:

Level split (or lack thereof)
alignment
start stats
end stats with tomes(no +3 tomes please)
character goal/direction
feats taken


what i don't need to see:
character name
enhancement breakdown
skill distribution
level up stat points
save breakdowns
AC breakdowns with 10 pieces of raid loot
equipment list

(most of this stuff is no-brainer and based on your character goal assessment i can guess what your core enhancements will be and where you'll be throwing your skill points.)




The only time the full planner sheet needs to be posted is if you're a new player and you really have no idea where to put things to maximize your character and you're asking for help.

[Ron]

Same, what about an AC calculator. Period. You check what you want. I could help you making sure everything is there, if ya want.

You'd "just" have to code it.

You're aware this already exists? It's not up to date, but it's there. In virtually the exact form you just requested.

This is what I keep saying. There are options in there that no one even knows are there. It's too complicated, and therefore, not used.

It has to stay simple. Every new UI element that goes in just ups the odds they won't get used. You have to keep that in mind when you ask for 20 new checkboxes, heh. I'm more than willing to work with you guys on this, have no doubt. But, I'm going to draw the line in the sand at some things over this issue, if it's too complicated (not to code, but to use), people won't use it. It NEEDS to stay easy and intuitive, or it doesn't work. I've learned this the hard way.


I don't mind helping but I don't see the use to it myself. Anyway, wiki syntax is really easy... and in doubts, HTML works.
Alright, cool. We'll talk later.

[Aspenor]

DON'T DO IT RON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

DOOOOOOOMMMMMMMM!!!!! Beware the temptations!!!!!

[Borror0]

You're aware this already exists? It's not up to date, but it's there. In virtually the exact form you just requested.

I know, but it's... err... lacking. ;)

I tried to use it, and then realised than due to the lack of variables, it's useless. Otherwise, as a newbie, I would have had used it. A lot. I think that no one will argue that Armor Class is very confusing for a new player, as the "What stacks and what does".


Alright, cool. We'll talk later.

In-game or via IM is fine with me, PM me when and by which media with me and I'll be there.:)

[adrinor]

I like how you post builds Borro. Very easy to read

[Aspenor]

Boooooooooooooooo!!!! Boo Borror!!! Boooooooooooooo!!!!

[Dawnblade]

Someone is bored at work :)

[Borror0]

Because I still hate bad lay outs and it's easier to point to this than explain it.

[Tanka]

Because I still hate bad lay outs and it's easier to point to this than explain it.
Ever try getting in touch with Ron to help him design something more simplistic?

[Borror0]

Ever try getting in touch with Ron to help him design something more simplistic?
Good idea. I should. I'll send him a PM about it now.

[Ron]

I do remember this guys.

Unfortunatley, at this point, the planner is not likely to get any major work done on it by me. I'm infinitely busy on my own game project right at the moment and for the forseeable future (I'm wearing about 12 hats right now, hehe).

I'll do bug fixes, and when the level cap raises, I'll spend the time to open up those levels, but in all honesty, I'm not likely to be able to find the time to spend on the planner to add major new features any time soon. I know that sucks for you guys, but my priorities have shifted.

I'm trying to get guidance from Turbine on if I can release the code publically or not. I hope to be able to and let you guys add to it, make it a community effort (which would be a lot better than you all having to wait on me anyway), but I don't want to get sued :) Presuming they say it's okay, I will post the code and you guys can go to town on it.

I may even put it up on our Subversion server so that it's version controlled, but I'd have to look into that. There are security issues involved with our own private repositories, and putting a public repository up on the same server might be problematic (or perhaps not, I don't grek all that network stuff all that well, not really my area of expertise).

[Lifespawn]

people using the planner just need to do enhancments at the end that makes it much easier to read and scroll through.

[Borror0]

people using the planner just need to do enhancments at the end that makes it much easier to read and scroll through.
Checking feats is annoying too.

[Lifespawn]

Checking feats is annoying too.

because you have to scroll down just a bit to see the feats?

[Gunga]

When posting builds, please don't ever use Borrorrorroro's format. Just use the forum export tool that is available with Ron's character planner. Thanks.

[Dexxaan]

when Posting Builds, Please Don't Ever Use Borrorrorroro's Format. Just Use The Forum Export Tool That Is Available With Ron's Character Planner. Thanks.

Rofl.

[Jay203]

When posting builds, please don't ever use Borrorrorroro's format. Just use the forum export tool that is available with Ron's character planner. Thanks.

aye, because it ticks him off THAT much :D:D:D:D:D

[Sanadil]

I'm trying to get guidance from Turbine on if I can release the code publically or not. I hope to be able to and let you guys add to it, make it a community effort (which would be a lot better than you all having to wait on me anyway), but I don't want to get sued :) Presuming they say it's okay, I will post the code and you guys can go to town on it.

I don't believe Turbine would have a leg to stand on. You would be releasing code, that you wrote. You didn't write it while working for Turbine. It doesn't contain any code that is used on the servers themselves. It doesn't re-produce what they are doing. It only contains your interpretations of how the game works. We know enhancment B comes after enhancment A. We all know the D&D rule set. What you created is not a game. Its a tool to help one figure out what they already could without it, on their own, with their own knowledge of this game.

Now, Re-Producing their game, so people can play it, that would be a no no, but you are not doing that, in the least.

That's just my opinion. You may be waiting much longer than MOD9 for an answer from Turbine on whether its ok to release your code....

[Ron]

No, it's not the code that would get me in trouble. That's entirely mine. But the program is tied to their in-game graphics (which are entirely Turbines, and are copywrited by them), and that's where it gets sticky.

Now, I DOUBT they'd have an issue with it. After all, what you would get with the code (in terms of images) is no different than what you get when you download the planner itself. But I'm taking no chances with it.

At the very least, if someone high up decided I was doing something they didn't like, I'd get hit with a perma-ban (which is entirely within their rights to do for any reason they want). At worst, I could get into legal hot-water :)

As it is, I've never gotten explicit permission to use those images, and I've always felt like I've been walking on thin ice with the planner in that regard. And I don't want to push it any more than I have, hehe.

If they say I can release the code, I will. If they don't (either by explicitly saying no or by saying nothing at all), well, then I won't. If that's the case, then I'll continue to update the planner as long as I'm here in DDO (and I have no immediate plans on leaving) in order to keep it up to date with the changes in the game. It just won't get any new features.

[asmiro]

i have a better idea... why not make the planner web-based?

coding might be a little different, but you could easily make the layout like it is now on the web site, and have drop downs for different slots for gear.

something along the lines of this:

http://auno.org/ao/equip.php

the above site allows you to create (and to show others, by providing a link to your specific gear profile) and edit a specific gear loadout for your toon, and shows the finalized stats after gear has been input. granted, it would be different for DDO, but still similar in most aspects. then, all we would have to do would be to provide a link to your character profile (NOT your account profile) on the forums and people could see exactly what you saw when you input the loadout.

btw i HAVE played the game that the above fan-site is about, it is also a free-to-play model, possibly the first MMO to use that model. it is quite fun once you get the hang of how the system works.

[Yaga_Nub]

you're not the boss 'a me!!!!!!!

Or me!!!!!!

[Missing_Minds]

Or me!!!!!!

You can stop playing with the dead, Yaga. You smell bad enough as it is without adding thread necro.

[Kaldaka]

i have a better idea... why not make the planner web-based?

coding might be a little different, but you could easily make the layout like it is now on the web site, and have drop downs for different slots for gear.

something along the lines of this:

http://auno.org/ao/equip.php

the above site allows you to create (and to show others, by providing a link to your specific gear profile) and edit a specific gear loadout for your toon, and shows the finalized stats after gear has been input. granted, it would be different for DDO, but still similar in most aspects. then, all we would have to do would be to provide a link to your character profile (NOT your account profile) on the forums and people could see exactly what you saw when you input the loadout.

btw i HAVE played the game that the above fan-site is about, it is also a free-to-play model, possibly the first MMO to use that model. it is quite fun once you get the hang of how the system works.


WOOT 14 and a half months later :D :eek:


Way to cast true rez on a thread!!!

http://www.omnicrola.com/linked_images/thread-resurrection.jpg

[Ron]

Well, as long as this thread has been returned from the dead, I suppose it's as good a place as any to let you guys know. I've started (but not completed) a template system for the forum output. What that means is you will be able to design whatever output format you like, and save that as a template file, to which you can apply it to whatever character you want. Any time you go to output a character, you will be able to select (from a dropdown menu) from all of the available template files found in your particular planner directory, and your character will output based on that file.

I will even, based on user feedback, take the most popular template designs and make them "official", meaning that they'd be included in the planner download for others to use.

No more will I have to hear about how the forum output sucks! :) If you don't like it, you will be able to custom design your own output! So there! :D

It may take me a while to get this to a useable state (it's not entirely unlike putting an entire mini-compiler right in the character planner code), but I've got a start on it already. So hopefully sometime in the not too distant future this will be available for you guys.

[asmiro]

nice to see that it is still being worked on. however i still say you should dump the executeable, and move to web-based work (if you have the necessary skills of course).

yes i know i rezed this thread, however im new to the game (check my post count), so im kinda new to the forum as well.

[Ron]

nice to see that it is still being worked on. however i still say you should dump the executeable, and move to web-based work (if you have the necessary skills of course).

php is not my native language (that woud be C++), but I have some skills in that area. But it's not something I want to tackle (I simply don't have the time, unfortunately). I know there have been a couple of attempts at such a thing (you'd have to hunt around on the forums for them), but I don't know exactly how far they were taken and if they are still being updated or not.

[asmiro]

im not a programmer, but seeing as how they are both "languages", isnt there some sort of cross-compiler or something so that you could write in C++ and output in php?

[Zion_Halcyon]

im not a programmer, but seeing as how they are both "languages", isnt there some sort of cross-compiler or something so that you could write in C++ and output in php?

Unfortunately no. Not a programmer either, but I did major in it for a time, and know my way around code a little bit, and I can tell you its nothing like a language translator - each programming language is far more complex in most cases, and there isn't a way to port from one to the other usually because each language has their own capabilities and limitiations - what you can do in C, for instance, you cannot do in java (speaking very generally here).

So while a cross-compiler sounds nice, what you are essentially asking for is a diesel engine for a 18 wheeler to be shoved into a pinto. Just doesn't work like that.

[MrWizard]

I can see posting the build, great tool indeed, incredible work.

However, if I was gonna ask about it I would summarize.

I would show what I think HP, AC, DPS, DR and more would be.
I would list my feats and why/what I want to change maybe.
I would mention some enhancements (such as PrE)

start stats are easy to type.


I think the builder is great for planning out a toon, especially when to take feats and how to deal with multiclasses.


New people would not know how to post anything else though.

And the planner does not cover all the extra buffs, items, etc...you would have.

[OldAquarian]

So while a cross-compiler sounds nice, what you are essentially asking for is a diesel engine for a 18 wheeler to be shoved into a pinto. Just doesn't work like that.

Not quite true: SWIG (http://www.swig.org/) can do it.


I will even, based on user feedback, take the most popular template designs and make them "official", meaning that they'd be included in the planner download for others to use..

Have Borror0 design an official one, so he can't complain

[LunaCee]

Example layout: (Some additional formatting required, but should get the point across)

Example Character Name, Race: Dwarf, Hit points/Spell points/Maximum Ki
Ranger 11

......................... STR/DEX/CON/INT/WIS/CHA
Starting attributes: 18 / 13 / 15 / 11 / 08 / 08
Attribute level ups: +5 / +0 / +0 / +0 / +0 / +0
Inherent (Tomes): +2 / +0 / +3 / +2 / +2 / +0
Final base attributes: 25 / 13 / 18 / 13 / 10 / 08

Feat Selection:
01 Dodge, Favored Enemy Undead, Bow Strength
02 Rapid Shot, Two Weapon Fighting
03 Mobility, Diehard
05 Favored Enemy Construct
06 Spring Attack, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Manyshot
09 Toughness, Evasion
10 Favored Enemy Giant
11 Greater Two Weapon Fighting, Precise Shot, Improved Precise Shot
You should be getting the idea by now...

Skills: Should *only* list skills the player has actually put points into for concise viewing!
Skill Name / Rank / Attrib / Bonus / Final
Balance / +07 / +02 / +04 / +13
Concentration / +14 / +04 / +10 / +28

Enhancements:
Ranger Skill Boost I
Ranger Skill Boost II
Ranger Skill Boost III
Ranger Sprint Boost I
Dwarven Axe Attack I
Dwarven Axe Attack II
Dwarven Axe Damage I
Dwarven Axe Damage II
Dwarven Constitution I
Dwarven Constitution II
Racial Toughness I
Racial Toughness II
Racial Toughness III
Ranger Favored Damage I
Ranger Favored Damage II
Ranger Favored Damage III
Ranger Tempest I
Ranger Dexterity I

As you can see I gave the highest enhancement of each line a brighter color than the ones used to reach it, I also gave the Prestige Enhancement its own darn color because of how important those are to a build. One should be able to rapidly pick out PrE choices within the list. And like I said before giving the example, yes it could use some better formatting... but I wasn't going to spend much more time than I already have.

As for listing out every last temporary bonus? Pfft let them do that on their own. Not everyone has access to all of them. Though one could put an over-ride option in the character builder that lets you add the extra numbers into the final calculations if you know them, and then lists the adjusted final value after the base final number.

[Borror0]

Have Borror0 design an official one, so he can't complain
You say that as if I would even slightly hesitate to criticize my own work. Picking me to do a design would mean a I would complain more, not less.

[Ukenburger]

You say that as if I would even slightly hesitate to criticize my own work. Picking me to do a design would mean a I would complain more, not less.

I personally think that'd be a great additional reason for you to do the design. :D

[Phidius]

So while a cross-compiler sounds nice, what you are essentially asking for is a diesel engine for a 18 wheeler to be shoved into a pinto. Just doesn't work like that.

Not quite true: SWIG (http://www.swig.org/) can do it.
...

Booooo! I really was expecting to see a Pinto with an 18-wheeler diesel engine crammed in...

[OldAquarian]

Example layout:
...
As you can see I gave the highest enhancement of each line a brighter color
.

Why list I and II at all if you have III?


You say that as if I would even slightly hesitate to criticize my own work. Picking me to do a design would mean a I would complain more, not less.

I said can't not won't :)

[OldAquarian]

Booooo! I really was expecting to see a Pinto with an 18-wheeler diesel engine crammed in...

Like this?

http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/2813/pinto18.jpg

[axebender]

i completely disagree with borro and suggest we all now post our builds in binary code.lol


uber build
000100001111000
00101000011010010010
101001001001000000100101
1010100101
0101010000001010100010111111
1010101001011111111000010

stats
10
01
01
10
1000111
10010011010010

[wgperi]

loolz!!

[Zyklon]

We're coming up on version 3.00 of the planner, so it's a good opportunity to make modifications.

Thank you for actually taking your own time to code and build the character planner. It is a fantastic tool that I enjoy using. And thank you for continually updating it!


-