Why is this game broke?

[Impaqt]

as I sat reading through several more posts about how how W/P Weapons are the Uberz, and how Barbarians with Critical Rage are the Uberz, and how we need even more better Stat damage weapons to counteract the Masssive hit points the devs are throwing at us in these mobs I had to think.....


Why are W/p so Awesome? Why do People want to see even better stat damagers? and the answer seems obvious to me...


THe last 2 Mods have been totally focused on monsters that are particually vulnerable to these attacks.

Devils... Yup... Orthons.. yup.... Gnolls.. Yup.... Spiders.. Yup.... Elementals.. Yup... Fiend-Blood sub-types of existing mobs... Yup..... Dogs, and cats.. Yup.... Even Living Spells... Yup.....

We see a few Giant Skellys that are immune.... and I cant think of ANYTHING else.... (Sans Red/Purple named)

What were the Devs Thinking?

Looking back at Mod 5, I gotta say the Mob Mix was spectacular..... We had a little bit of EVERYTHING in that mod.... Undead, Golems, Fleshies, Spiders, Rats, Elementals.... It was a great mix of tactics and optimal weaponry/Spell Selections. Its a downright shame that they created such a poor Raid.... The Content In the orchard leading to the raid is IMO, some of the best in the game. You cant have tunnel vision... You have to think a bit, You must change tactics on a dime.

All that compeltely evaporated when Mod 6 came out and continued in Mod 7.

We dont need better weapons.... We dont need more powerful Tempest/Barb Builds.... Ne need more innovative modules like 5. Modules that test our Knowledge and wearwithall more than focusing on one type of daamge and one type of killing. Theres not enough thinking in Mod 6-7.

I dont know where the discussion can go on this... I just wanted to bring that up.....

[Turial]

Now that I am a bit better geared and higher level I like the mod 5 content a lot more. Part of it was the prevalance of firewall and that most of the quests at the time only looked for casters that turned me off to it.

I agree though on your point that we need a more diverse set of mobs to run against to limit the power creep of some weapons. Better spell casting AI may help in this regard as well though...although its hard to call for help when your drained of con in a single attack chain.

Perhaps its time to bring back things like the pact of the devourer except this time it blocks stat damage or some such buffage.

[juniorpfactors]

they clearly slowed the power of the arcane down in mod 7 and we will probably see immunities in future mods for w/p at some point down the line.. at this point its about all I work towards acquiring, that and L's


jrp

[Dirac]

I can tell you what the devs were thinking. They were responding to the, quite accurate, perception that DDO had way too much undead. This was to bring the total content more in balance.

It is important to realize how your observation has to do with how people play the game. Many only play a very small number of end-game quests. They reconfigure their characters, re-supply all their equipment, even completely re-roll their melee's to optimally face this select group. The no-AC movement started when after MOD4 there existed 4-6 quests (on elite) where AC didn't matter. But, if these are the only quests you ever run, then it doesn't matter.

I'm not saying your observations are wrong, but I disagree with your conclusion: the game isn't broken. MOD6-7 brings a better overall balance to the monsters in DDO. Also, nothing will ever change this particular behavior: many people are going to only focus on the very few end-game quests.

[Angelus_dead]

THe last 2 Mods have been totally focused on monsters that are particually vulnerable to these attacks.
That's a reversed way to state it. The last 3 raids have heavily featured monster who are much more resistant to hitpoint damage than others, but whose constitution is still essentially normal. The monsters in The Shroud and Subterrane have around 8-12 times the hitpoints of other monsters, but only about 1.5x or 2x the constitution.

So it's not that their vulnerability to wounding and vorpaling has gone up, but rather that it's stayed the same while other attacks became less useful on them.

As to what were the devs thinking? I suppose the thought process was "This is a end-level raid, lets make powerful monsters by giving them uber hitpoints". That's not wrong, but it fails to reach the heights of creativity needed to solve the problem.

If I had designed those monsters, I would have given them a property like "Moderate Preservation", which grants a 50% chance to ignore ability score damage from attacks (but not from other special effects like poison, disease, or negative magic). The Preservation percentage can be chosen to make the monster more durable, without shooting his fort save sky-high by giving him 80 constitution. (It should never go all the way up to 100% though- they should be resistant, not invulnerable)

In addition, I'd give some creatures an effect like "Desparate Deathblock", which prevents some insta-kill effects like vorpal, but at the cost of 50% of the victim's total hp when the kill is blocked.

(Note that both those effects could be given to player characters as magic armor enhancements, and some players would value them)

[Impaqt]

That's a reversed way to state it. The last 3 raids have heavily featured monster who are much more resistant to hitpoint damage than others, but whose constitution is still essentially normal. The monsters in The Shroud and Subterrane have around 8-12 times the hitpoints of other monsters, but only about 1.5x or 2x the constitution.

So it's not that their vulnerability to wounding and vorpaling has gone up, but rather that it's stayed the same while other attacks became less useful on them.


Interesting... I dont recall the low Hit point Devils and orthons in Mods 1-5.

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

We dont need better weapons.... We dont need more powerful Tempest/Barb Builds.... Ne need more innovative modules like 5. Modules that test our Knowledge and wearwithall more than focusing on one type of daamge and one type of killing. Theres not enough thinking in Mod 6-7.

How about a raid where you really have to stick with it and keep practicing - not just a walkover but something that guilds or static groups can really feel a sense of achievement when they finally beat it. Perhaps throw in some puzzles, with a harsh failure if you can't complete them. Invisible platforms come to mind.

Garth

[Angelus_dead]

Interesting... I dont recall the low Hit point Devils and orthons in Mods 1-5.
Eh what? There were no devils or orthons prior to module 6.

In case you don't know, the point is that prior to The Shroud high end non-named monsters had 500-700 hp and 18-22 con. Then you go into Shroud or Subterrane and an Orthon or Barbazu has 4000-6000 hp with 22-31 con.

[bobbryan2]

Interesting... I dont recall the low Hit point Devils and orthons in Mods 1-5.

You're being argumentative. Why do they have to be devils and orthons to have high hit points? Mod 4 had a wealth of ogres, giants, minotaurs, trolls, orcs, gnolls, etc. Go back and try to DPS them now, as opposed to W/P and you'll see what AD means.

DPS just became completely ineffective. In Mod 5... you 'had' to DPS because stat damage and vorpals didn't work. In mod 4, you 'should have' DPSed because vorpals were less effective than DPS. In Mod 6-7, you 'should' vorpal because things have too many hit points.

They tried to keep everything's hit dice in line, so they would still be vulnerable to things like banishing weapons, and instead made each hit dice equal to 50+ hp, which meant that by taking off the con at a normal rate, meant removing their hit points at an astonishing rate.

Clearly, I think we can agree that they backed themselves into that corner. It would go a long way to simply give these creatures more HD, instead of only HP, and remove HD requirements to spells and weapon effects. The 'keeping the HD the same, but increasing HP" model doesn't seem to be working great.

[Impaqt]

Eh what? There were no devils or orthons prior to module 6.

In case you don't know, the point is that prior to The Shroud high end non-named monsters had 500-700 hp and 18-22 con. Then you go into Shroud or Subterrane and an Orthon or Barbazu has 4000-6000 hp with 22-31 con.

Exactly.. My Statement was not "Reversed". Mod 6-7 are Full of mobs that are particualy vulnerable to Con Damage. These mobs did not exits Prior to mod 6. therefor they have not evolved froma balanced mob to one that requires con damage to kill.

[Angelus_dead]

Exactly.. My Statement was not "Reversed". Mod 6-7 are Full of mobs that are particualy vulnerable to Con Damage.
No, that's still backwards. They are NOT more vulnerable to con damage... their vulnerability to con damage is approximately the same as any previous monster. What's changed is their mega-high hitpoints.

Constitution damage is now relatively a more effective attack than it was before, but it's misleading and inaccurate to claim they are "more susceptible" to it than other monsters. To say that someone is "vulnerable to wounding" instead of "resistant to DPS" is similar in overall effect, but very different when discussing the underlying game design that lead to those effects.

[Impaqt]

No, that's still backwards. They are NOT more vulnerable to con damage... their vulnerability to con damage is approximately the same as any previous monster. What's changed is their mega-high hitpoints.

Constitution damage is now relatively a more effective attack than it was before, but it's misleading and inaccurate to claim they are "more susceptible" to it than other monsters. To say that someone is "vulnerable to wounding" instead of "resistant to DPS" is similar in overall effect, but very different when discussing the underlying game design that lead to those effects.
lol

More Effective.... Vulneralble to... Its the same to me and most people....

[bobbryan2]

Well, regardless of how you say it.

The problem is that when they're increasing monster difficulty, they're cutting corners instead of rising all aspects of the monster evenly.

Whether they're adding 500 hp, and leaving it a 10 HD creature... or they're adding 700 HP and forgetting to add 30 con to make up for the addition...

the end result is that the monster has a weak spot that can be exploited.

[CSFurious]

even a year ago, a vorpal was a big deal for alot of players

i am not a casual player & i remember trading an arm & a leg for my first vorpal ever, a kukri

now, my main dual-wields vorpal longswords & i have 4 vorpal kukris & even more vorpals that just sit in the bank

anyway, everyone has good weapons now, either pulled or manufactured

later

[Samadhi]

lol

More Effective.... Vulneralble to... Its the same to me and most people....

It's not the same - AD already said it pretty succinctly in my mind - but WoP has been an extremely good way of killing mobs since the level cap was 10. It was primarily used by dex builds, however, because str builds could kill just as well without needing to bother due to the lower HP of the mobs.

With the HP increase, this is no longer the case, and therefore even uber str builds are going for stat damage.


Or maybe this will explain it better. Gnolls, like elves, are a low race. Therefore, con damage should always be a good way to kill them. They are VULNERABLE to con damage. Orthons are more like dwarves, a high con race. They are NOT vulnerable to con damage as a whole. The only reason con damage is effective, is because they have such inflated HP, that nothing else is.


PS
Also agreed with what another poster said, that more undead IS NOT THE ANSWER. We could have another 8 mods of no undead to balance out all the absurd amounts of undead already in the total game. Their focus on living enemies is a good choice and will remain so for a while.

[maddmatt70]

Greensteels I use on alot of the mobs as well such as flensers and often against beholders on the way to Hound. In the shroud I use greensteel except on the orthons where I use vorpals and on the red names in the three raids I use greensteel. I and others often dps targets. The issue for me is that the greensteel has totally made general weapon loot worthless. The only answer to this is to improve general weapon loot which has not been improved really since the level cap was 14..

[totmacher]

cause, like any enterprise from repairing your car to fixing multi-billion corporations like fannie mae, there's just no money for it :)

[Impaqt]

Devils and Orthons. Vulnerable to Con/Stat damage.

Undead and Golems NOT Vulneralble.

A Better mix of mobs is needed.... Not better single perpose weaponry.

Anytime I see people complain about too much undead I gotta wonder if they are just complainign because they are harder to kill for melee.

[MrCow]

Devils and Orthons. Vulnerable to Con/Stat damage.

Undead and Golems NOT Vulneralble.

A Better mix of mobs is needed.... Not better single perpose weaponry.

Or just a better monster made of a mix, like an Undead Orthon or a Flesh Golem Bearded Devil, maybe even a Gelatinous Flesh Render. :p

[Impaqt]

Or just a better monster made of a mix, like an Undead Orthon or a Flesh Golem Bearded Devil, maybe even a Gelatinous Flesh Render. :p

Now your Thinkin! Undead Orthons would be totally cool. Think they would keep their Fire Immunity?

[Borror0]

A Better mix of mobs is needed.... Not better single perpose weaponry.

It's not that mobs are vulnerable to w/p is the problem, it's that developers have purposely made Module 6 & 7 mobs non-DPSable.

You see, Module 4 and 5 were the modules of endless nuking. There was nothing more powerful than a nuking sorcerer. Second place came wizard and clerics. Then, came barbarians... followed by DPS builds. Melee were sitting in the backseat for a lot of quests. I know it, Heiken never had to mamage his SPs in Module 5. Nuke, nuke and nuke again.

So, rather than nerfing classes, which usually frustrates players and make them leave, they have taken a few decisions to lower their fire power.

That's why we see tons and tons of mobs immune to fire, like Devils. If they aren't immune to it, they are super resistant like the Renders in the Hound of Xoriat. Not only are mobs in module 6 and 7 immune to fire, but they are also resistant to Acid and Ice! Oh, and they have so much HP that you can't nuke them!! If you nuke non-stop a pack of mobs, you're gonig to be out of SP before the third encounter.

The byproduct of these change is the sudden raise of interest for w/p. Sure, w/p was good before, but the margin between good DPS and w/p wasn't that big. If everyone had a w/p, then w/p was better. However, everyone had DPS. And usually, good DPS. So, w/p rapiers weren't as uber as they are now. Now, most mobs are Vorpal, w/p, m/bb or w/e... and w/p is the one that kills the fastest of all. Hence why they are so expensive.

The problem isn't really that they can be stat damage'd... it's that they have way too much HP for their Con.

[Strykersz]

I'm pretty sure Mod 5's internal title was "Can we hit 0 rogues?"

[GlassCannon]

"Stuff has too much HP, and the Devs aren't doing anything but making the problem bigger.

Stuff dies quicker from Stat damage, and Super-Ultra-Rare weaponry on intentionally exploitative builds apparently has become the status quo around here, and it's ridiculous.

Bring HP totals DOWN, INCREASE some stats, drop some bonuses, and balance this d@mn game already.

I want to see a change in the near future, as exactly the opposite has occurred with the last 2 Modules."



Yep, I pretty much agree with the whole approach, though sometimes it needs rewording to take hold in some minds.

[GlassCannon]

It's not that mobs are vulnerable to w/p is the problem, it's that developers have purposely made Module 6 & 7 mobs non-DPSable.

If it gets buried, click and read the whole thing.

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

That's why we see tons and tons of mobs immune to fire, like Devils. If they aren't immune to it, they are super resistant like the Renders in the Hound of Xoriat. Not only are mobs in module 6 and 7 immune to fire, but they are also resistant to Acid and Ice!

Obviously the devs have a time machine, and they went back to the 1980s and changed the Monster Manual to make Devils immune to acid and fire, in order to arbitrarily raise the price of w/p rapiers.

Oh - and how did they get a time machine? They traded a w/p rapier for it... (how's that for a paradox)

Garth

[Borror0]

Obviously the devs have a time machine, and they went back to the 1980s and changed the Monster Manual to make Devils immune to acid and fire, in order to arbitrarily raise the price of w/p rapiers.

You are awared that they get to choose what kind of mob they put in what dungeon, right???

[Strykersz]

You are awared that they get to choose what kind of mob they put in what dungeon, right???

Not only that but they get to choose what spells/weapon effects they put in the game. If prismatic wall had made the cut, the "run everything around in a wall" strat would still be used.

[DaveyCrockett]

What's funny is remembering when people (in general, many did of course) didn't understand w/p rapiers to be so powerful, and they are now nerfed from what they once were:

Sor'Jek would drop in seconds. Take the backway, and you have 2 chests in a few minutes.
No DR blocked wounding.
You could trade a +5 mfp for one.

W/P rapiers have been my thing since got my hands on my very first one (3 months or so into the game).

I see the OP's point on the mix of enemies, but I don't think that w/p rapiers are going to drop in value even if the next 5 mods are all undead/constructs/oozes. At least not for me.

[Strakeln]

I think they need to inflate the con scores to match the inflated hitpoints.

That would put w/p weapons back in their place. Still fantastic, but not the "every single other piece of loot in the game" value they are now.

Or just send me two and we'll call it even :p

[Kromize]

Exactly.. My Statement was not "Reversed". Mod 6-7 are Full of mobs that are particualy vulnerable to Con Damage. These mobs did not exits Prior to mod 6. therefor they have not evolved froma balanced mob to one that requires con damage to kill.

Funny. Your arguing over the way something was said, instead of focusing on the topic. :confused:

[Hendrik]

How about a raid where you really have to stick with it and keep practicing - not just a walkover but something that guilds or static groups can really feel a sense of achievement when they finally beat it. Perhaps throw in some puzzles, with a harsh failure if you can't complete them. Invisible platforms come to mind.

Garth

Hey Garth, I like this idea!

Something real tough.

;)

[Rog]

How about a raid where you really have to stick with it and keep practicing - not just a walkover but something that guilds or static groups can really feel a sense of achievement when they finally beat it. Perhaps throw in some puzzles, with a harsh failure if you can't complete them. Invisible platforms come to mind.

Garth

I am happy with 12 man raids the req 12 poeple to complete. the raids in this mod was a real step up from the past raids. to the dev team great work!

[parvo]

my level three initimisorc/splash cleric/splash bard is the uberz...can't believe you didn't mention him.

[Josh]

(3 months or so into the game).

Lol.

[Uamhas]

DIRE COW!
Or just a better monster made of a mix, like an Undead Orthon or a Flesh Golem Bearded Devil, maybe even a Gelatinous Flesh Render. :p

[MrCow]

DIRE COW!

Thelanis already has one of these. ;)