A newbie's view on optional quests

[Draccus]

Is it just me or is there too much disparity between the effort to complete an optional quest and the XP reward?

I'll freely admit that as a newbie, I'm usually the only one in my PUG who hasn't run a quest a dozen or so times and that I spend much of the quest just trying to keep up. My first view of PUGs in DDO was a poor one as I was upset that no group wanted to do any optionals and I felt I was missing out on some good XP and fun gaming.

So now I'm high enough to solo into some of those dungeons and do the optionals, I understand why most groups skip them: the rewards don't come close to being worth the cost or effort.

Case in point: Last night I solo'd a level 3 or 4 quest on elite. I also did one of the optionals I'd never done. I gained around 1300 XP for completing the quest and a whopping 18 XP for completing the optional. 18 XP?? Pathetic. But, wait, that optional named monster had a chest! Ah, just what I needed; a masterwork chain shirt and 53 gold pieces.

In this newbie's opinion, optionals should have far greater XP and loot rewards. Someone took the time to write and build these quests, it's a shame most people ignore them.

[DoctorWhofan]

what level was the quest? what level are you? That makes all the differance. Also, doing the optionals, assures the actual bonuses that matter, conquest and ransack. SOmetimes the boxes and mobs in those hidden areas make a HUGE difference on those two.


Some of us do all the optionals, because they are THERE. and chests. To some, earning their own cash is far more important than the xp.


Some of us, butterflies are fine to watch.

[MrWizard]

Optionals in dungeons usually go hand in hand with going for xp bonuses too.
Getting a spare chest is one reason, the rest is about maxing the xp for some players.

It really depends how you want to play it. If you want to go through every inch of the dungeon and kill/do everything, then it is perfect for you. And you will get bonuses (xp) and loot for doing so.

But as you see from your tale, the time, effort, and resources are not worth the loot or the xp bonus. Fact is, some people really like to do all that stuff no matter what it takes. They just like it.

Sounds like you are not into that. So I would not do it. When you are with a group that 'has' to do things like that it will be cool as you will never have gone in that area before.

Is it worth it for the loot? Only in a high level content area.

Is it worth it for the xp? No.
Example: stormcleave, skipping all the stuff, 10-15 mins. Doing it all, 30-90 minutes. XP difference? A few thousand. Loot? a couple chests with negligible stuff. Lowbies who have to call out due to a long conquest? They actually end up with less xp than the short 15 minute run.

However, as a newb, it is fun to check out all the dungeon areas at least once. Check out the different named critters and all.

Also, be prepared to run with groups that are completely 'do everything' types. And groups that are half zerg and half 'hey, a 2nd level chest is by this optional come back' types.

For relaxed fun, do whatever the party wants. To level fast, skip all that stuff.

And just enjoy the game. Summer is almost over and everyone will be back soon.

[Ron]

Some of us do all the optionals, because they are THERE. and chests.

That would be me :D

[llevenbaxx]

In my groups we tend to stay away from the collect 10 crates, slay 2 earth elementals type ones. They are never really worth the time it seems, not that Im in any hurry when gaming. I will usually just hit on the main adds, ransack, traps(secret doors) and kills. I dont mind taking the little extra times for those... oh any extra chests too.

While I understand you would like to see every nook and crany, like most of us did originnally, they just arent worth it xp wise. This is just part of the suckiness of joining a static game after its been on the market a while. Been there, done that, also found it annoying.

Best I can tell you is that very few of these side quests are actually awesome and that if someone says its not worth the time, they mean both in xp AND cool factor.

...and welcome.:)

[negative]

I almost always run all the optionals as well, and I agree with the poster above, the reward is conquest and ransack, and those can be substantial rewards, sometimes for very little additional effort as well.

Being more a casual player who plays with other casual players, I know that regardless of how long the quests are I can only get my other guildmates to run 3 quests on a weeknight. Regardless if I spent 30 minutes doing each quest as fast as possible, or 45 minutes getting conquest, after 3 quests we are done for the night. Some of the older guild members just don't have the endurance and attention span.

Now, this doesn't apply to a lot of people, who would just run as fast as possible and get 4 quests done, and maybe that earns more xp. But for me, 3 quests is 3 quest and the more xp I get per quest the more efficient it is for me.

[Angelus_dead]

Note that for low-middle level quests, 100 XP/minute is the baseline. When an optional is offered you can push X to see the XP paid for it, and try to guess how many minutes it'll take to complete. For example, in the Threnal Ruins (entry from House Philarian) the first optional encounter is a single Hill Giant, who gives ~65 XP for a level 6 character. Since that takes half a minute to beat, it's worth it to do that optional any time you're passing through house P.


Is it just me or is there too much disparity between the effort to complete an optional quest and the XP reward?
It's not just you- the majority of optionals are not even close to worth it in terms of the XP payoff. That problem intensifies when you consider that optionals are often more difficult than the main part of the quest. The ones that are worth it are normally the ones that are super-easy anyhow (just killing a monster you were probably going to kill anyway).

A recent exception would be the puzzle at the end of Ghost of a Chance, which is worth it IF you can do it fast (basically meaning you already know how).


I'll freely admit that as a newbie, I'm usually the only one in my PUG who hasn't run a quest a dozen or so times and that I spend much of the quest just trying to keep up.
One thing to consider is that if the rest of the group is going to beat the quest without your help, it could be worthwhile for you to split off from them and do some easy optionals while they win. Or simply hang back and break barrels for the ransack XP bonus. (Of course, that's probably not a highly fun way to play)

[Angelus_dead]

what level was the quest? what level are you? That makes all the differance. Also, doing the optionals, assures the actual bonuses that matter, conquest and ransack.
Conquest is almost always a mistake in terms of XP for time. If you didn't get conquest automatically by finishing the quest, chances are it's a long walk to find where those other monsters are hidden. It will probably take you more than 15% of the time you needed to win the main quest, meaning that instead of hunting for conq you could go do something else and get more XP there.

(Like I just mentioned, Ransack is an exception if you have a player who isn't needed to help win the quest who can just hang back and kill boxes)

[branmakmuffin]

In this newbie's opinion, optionals should have far greater XP and loot rewards. Someone took the time to write and build these quests, it's a shame most people ignore them.
Maybe reduce the XP for the overall quest and increase the reward for the optionals, so that the total XP for main+optional is roughly the same as it is now, but the division is more even.

[Drekisen]

Is it just me or is there too much disparity between the effort to complete an optional quest and the XP reward?

I'll freely admit that as a newbie, I'm usually the only one in my PUG who hasn't run a quest a dozen or so times and that I spend much of the quest just trying to keep up. My first view of PUGs in DDO was a poor one as I was upset that no group wanted to do any optionals and I felt I was missing out on some good XP and fun gaming.

So now I'm high enough to solo into some of those dungeons and do the optionals, I understand why most groups skip them: the rewards don't come close to being worth the cost or effort.

Case in point: Last night I solo'd a level 3 or 4 quest on elite. I also did one of the optionals I'd never done. I gained around 1300 XP for completing the quest and a whopping 18 XP for completing the optional. 18 XP?? Pathetic. But, wait, that optional named monster had a chest! Ah, just what I needed; a masterwork chain shirt and 53 gold pieces.



In this newbie's opinion, optionals should have far greater XP and loot rewards. Someone took the time to write and build these quests, it's a shame most people ignore them.

The optionals and bonuses actually can mean a lot. A lot of times especially when hitting higher level quests I take full advantage of the max amount of levels I can be over a quest before I get cutoff completely from xp.

So say I do a level 7 quest when I am level 12, I will lose 75% xp from the base.
Say quest is worth base 2000xp, I am down to 500 xp from the start.

However, if it's my first time, let's say I am doing it on elite even, I get that bonus which gets me to 1500xp total.
Conquest nets me another 500 for a total of 2000xp.
Ransack will get me another 300 for a total of 2300xp.

So say even if it was not ur first time elite, and u haven't done it more than three times, you go from 500xp to 1300xp because bonuses are based off of original base xp, not reduced base from penalties.

So from a solo'ing standpoint, when u want to do something without draining ur resources, that can add up, and ur not getting all the aggravation of doing an impossibly hard quest and using all ur resources to complete it.

After all, a level 7 elite quest is really a level 10 quest as far as how difficult the monsters are. Doing it at level 12 assures you a nice cushion and ample power to take the task on alone if need be. If u did it at "appropriate level", u would probably end up recalling out enough times to get a sufficient xp penalty for re-entering anyways, and will have probably used up quite a few healing supplies trying to stay alive.

Sorry for straying a little from the OP, but as the first reply stated, many times u will need to complete an optional part to have the appropriate number of kills or breakables to get the larger bonuses.
Want a large optional bonus, kill the dragons in GH Tor :)

There is also one other thing I wanted to touch on, some may finding doing optionals and getting bonuses very boring, I , and I am sure there r others like me, find it incredibly boring to start working on a new toon, and do the same quests over and over to level them. To me, that seems to be not so adventurous, and this game is about adventure IMO. Completing an option with a build u have never played, even tho u have done it with another, can be quite thrilling.

[ArkoHighStar]

Conquest is almost always a mistake in terms of XP for time. If you didn't get conquest automatically by finishing the quest, chances are it's a long walk to find where those other monsters are hidden. It will probably take you more than 15% of the time you needed to win the main quest, meaning that instead of hunting for conq you could go do something else and get more XP there.

(Like I just mentioned, Ransack is an exception if you have a player who isn't needed to help win the quest who can just hang back and kill boxes)

the one quest I can think of that breaks that rule is POP where 25% conquest comes from just getting to the top

[DoctorWhofan]

Conquest is almost always a mistake in terms of XP for time. If you didn't get conquest automatically by finishing the quest, chances are it's a long walk to find where those other monsters are hidden. It will probably take you more than 15% of the time you needed to win the main quest, meaning that instead of hunting for conq you could go do something else and get more XP there.

(Like I just mentioned, Ransack is an exception if you have a player who isn't needed to help win the quest who can just hang back and kill boxes)

That's Zerger talk. I'm not a zerger. I'm here to play thegame, not to run through it. So XP per minute means nothing to me, but getting all the checks marked off does.

[Vagabond]

Maybe reduce the XP for the overall quest and increase the reward for the optionals, so that the total XP for main+optional is roughly the same as it is now, but the division is more even.

This would have been the ideal solution, in all honesty.

It penalizes you less for having a wider group range (realistically, a lvl7 non twink is less useful than a lvl4 twink in a lot of content), and encourages people to actually absorb the content in front of them. I would rather spend twice as long on one quest than run the same quest twice. Plus usually when pugging the whole 'hey let's do normal, hard, then elite' thing never gets past normal because someone bails and it's too late blah blah.

It would potentially penalize soloers more, though. I like to get full bonuses when I'm soloing but there's some quests where I just say screw it and zerg through to collect the few hundred exp at the end because the optional content IS very difficult, usually. (edit: I should say, I only do this if it's a really tedious quest and i'm past the level where it's a challenge, and/or the bonus exp is not significant simply because the base exp is so low. I do stupid things just for the challenge, but beating down 100 skeletons with a finesse rogue hybrid is not fun.)

Imagine my annoyance when, after only even being able to obtain 3 out of 6 fragments of the tear of drahkan because of obscene stat requirements, I got 100 gold*3 for them from the quest giver's friend. What the hell?

But it would probably be worth it, because for a new player, it DOES very badly feel like you're missing out. In all honesty, people cling to the idea that anything optional is wasted time and it's just dumb. If the party worked together to just hit all the along the path crates usually you get at least the 8% bonus for mere seconds of effort split across the whole group. 8% free is nothing to sneer at.

I think there are lots of people who are on their third character and don't even know what the optional content contains in a lot of quests.

[Borror0]

Conquest is almost always a mistake in terms of XP for time. If you didn't get conquest automatically by finishing the quest, chances are it's a long walk to find where those other monsters are hidden. It will probably take you more than 15% of the time you needed to win the main quest, meaning that instead of hunting for conq you could go do something else and get more XP there.

Depends on the quest. Stormcleave is a good exception to that. The +10% is a lot of XP.

[DoctorWhofan]

That would be me :D

AND me, too! :D Outside of TS and a few others, I try to explore everything.

A story. I was on with a lowbee rogue, and there was a another guy in the party who was on with his lowbee. THe rest were new. THe quest was Stealthy Repossession. Well, the vet ran hi tank through to the end while the rest of us waited at the begining. When we got quest completion, he said FO. Naturally the new guys were confused. I said, if you want to stick it out, I will show you around. A couple said yes, andwe proceeded to kill our way down to the named.. The vet started to yell that there was not thing to see. One new guy answered him, that there were several chests, some collectables and the satifiaction of actually doing something in a quest. The vet dropped group. along wilth one new guy. I had fun doing several othere quests with them.

And the last sentance says it all, I HAD FUN. It's a game, and when you break out charts a calculate the xp per minute, the game isn't fun. I don't like to zerg, I don't even like fast at times. And even in a quest I have done before, I like to look around and see places I haven't seen before.

VoN 4 is another one that people just have them wait at the middle. In a flagging party one time, there was this guy in the middle with is and he remarked that this was his fifth dragon run and he had no idea what was down either corridors. Or what to do. Sad, really.

I have seen the Titan 6 times. Why only 6? Cuz, I get tired of zerging through the pre raid. I have no clue how to do it. And I would like to know.

So zergers, have fun zerging. And if the OP wants that lifestyle, so be it. But I pay the play, and by all that is mighty, I will explore every bit of Stormreach if I can.

[Dirac]

Of course, the most important point with which I agree is to find what you have fun doing and focus on that. I agree with AD, that the extra bonus is almost never worth it (xp/time wise). However, one point to consider is the down time between quests. If you are PUGing; if the conquest and ransack bonuses are not that much extra time it may be worth it to do them based on the wasted time between quests with people dropping to do other things and finding new players.

For me, sometimes I zerg, sometimes I do everything, as it fits my mood.


And the last sentance says it all, I HAD FUN. It's a game, and when you break out charts a calculate the xp per minute, the game isn't fun.

As I mentioned above, I agree with your point of what is fun is what matters. That being said, I have a notebook with data of my xp/time on an enormous number of low/middle quests, excel spreadsheets, and charts to maximize xp/time. Taking and anayzing such data is an enormous amount of fun .... for me. :)

[ArkoHighStar]

That's Zerger talk. I'm not a zerger. I'm here to play thegame, not to run through it. So XP per minute means nothing to me, but getting all the checks marked off does.

All of us are here to play the game, neither way is better they are just different

[Borror0]

All of us are here to play the game, neither way is better they are just different

Ok don't think Trissa disagrees with that.

[Melthus]

With regard to the conquest vs. speed run issue, the thing I find somewhat annoying is when someone joins MY group, without asking how we plan to run the quest, then gets upset that not everyone in the group is going for the speed record. My usual group typically goes for both conquest and ransack, and so I'm somewhat conditioned to smashing everything as I go through.

Just last week I was grouped with my daughter, who is somewhat new to DDO, and we were doing Delera's tomb and Necromancer. Our lfm screen said nothing about speed runs. Unfortunately, we ended up with someone who joined up and basically complained every time we fell behind (I was waiting for my daughter each time we'd shrine or loot a chest, because for someone new, those zones can be easy to get lost in.

This long story is basically to say, if you absolutely prefer one type of run over another, ask before you join.

[MrWizard]

the bonuses are based on the quest base...so 10% more with conquest on a 2000 base quest is 200.
that is no tmuch xp versus time and resources.

it all depends on players. do they want to do everything or just get through the dungeon?

the extras are for people who enjoy that. They are optional so others do not have to do them if they do not want.
The extras do not much for loot or xp, they are for adventure.

just make sure you are with a group that wants to do it the way you want.

Stormcleave is a great example...really fun to do everything a few times...but the extra xp is not much at all over a short 'skip' run, really.

you do optionals for fun, not for xp or loot. (except very high level chests)

[Cjarr]

All of us are here to play the game, neither way is better they are just different

That is the only real point.... And the big problem with questions like the OP's......
It all comes down to player styles and ideals, there is no change or solution that would be "satisfying" to everybody.

And there will always be some who vehemently agree with the issue, some who will vehemently disagree, and some who sit in the middle saying sometimes yes, sometimes no.......

So IMO the answer to OP's question is....do you enjoy doing the optionals??? If no, then they aren't worth the xp. If yes, then they are worth it no matter how little you get. That's the only real answer.

To some a quest needs 100xp/minute, to others they can run a quest for an hour to earn 50xp. Me, depends on my mood, if I'm in a quick run for quick xp then I'll often skip all but the easiest of optionals, if I'm in a good group having fun chatting and interacting, then most likely we are getting all the optionals......If I'm looking to relax, enjoy some game time and max out my xp, then I'm hitting every optional.

just my useless little ramble.

[maddmatt70]

I have seen the Titan 6 times. Why only 6? Cuz, I get tired of zerging through the pre raid. I have no clue how to do it. And I would like to know.

So zergers, have fun zerging. And if the OP wants that lifestyle, so be it. But I pay the play, and by all that is mighty, I will explore every bit of Stormreach if I can.

With the limited amount of quests in ddo every player has run the quests several times it becomes inherently such that a quest becomes a zerge of varying intensity. A new player is different, but from an activity standpoint in particular at high levels new players are rare. My guess from reading this and a few of your other posts is you wait to do the new quests/raids. By the time you get around to fully running a couple of months have passed and people already have the zerge mentality at that point. My advice is to run those quests when they first come out that is the best way to avoid the zerge mentality...

[Mhykke]

I have seen the Titan 6 times. Why only 6? Cuz, I get tired of zerging through the pre raid. I have no clue how to do it. And I would like to know.




You can also do a websearch for warforged titan walkthrough, or twilight forge walkthrough, to get a concept of how the quest is run...that way, you can post an LFM for the titan advertising it as a no zerging, learning run.

[Ron]

So IMO the answer to OP's question is....do you enjoy doing the optionals??? If no, then they aren't worth the xp. If yes, then they are worth it no matter how little you get. That's the only real answer.


Well said.

Do what is fun for you. Some people like to zerg to get to the cap, because the cap is where things are fun for them. Most likely the optionals are a bad way to spend their time. Others like to take it slow and explore everything, even when they've been there a million times before, because that's what is fun for them. To each their own :)

[branmakmuffin]

With the limited amount of quests in ddo every player has run the quests several times it becomes inherently such that a quest becomes a zerge of varying intensity. A new player is different, but from an activity standpoint in particular at high levels new players are rare. My guess from reading this and a few of your other posts is you wait to do the new quests/raids. By the time you get around to fully running a couple of months have passed and people already have the zerge mentality at that point. My advice is to run those quests when they first come out that is the best way to avoid the zerge mentality...
That's no solution if a player has no characters ready to run a quest when it first comes out.

[Borror0]

That's no solution if a player has no characters ready to run a quest when it first comes out.
Then post an LFM "First timers and/or no spoilers"

[Ghoste]

I have seen the Titan 6 times. Why only 6? Cuz, I get tired of zerging through the pre raid. I have no clue how to do it. And I would like to know.
Know what I did when I began feeling that way about the Titan? I went in the quest alone and learned the green puzzle by peeking through the holes beside the doors, wrote it all down, solved in on paper, then practiced it solo.

Not the first quest I did that in. Couldn't get a party to do Shrieking Mines my very first time. Really got impatient to get it done, so I looked up some info on the forums to find out what I would be facing in the quest, went in solo, took my sweet time, and completed it.

I spent over an hour in just the wheel room in The Pit. That's how long it took me to finally find all the rune/color plaques. That one on the side of the walkway where you have to jump off the side onto the sewer pipe and then turn around to see it...sneaky place to put that!

Often I won't be able to complete a quest my first time in solo like that, but the knowledge gained by propper scouting is great. And after some really slow paced scouting, zerging will be a welcome change of pace.

[transtemporal]

I have seen the Titan 6 times. Why only 6? Cuz, I get tired of zerging through the pre raid. I have no clue how to do it. And I would like to know.

You probably already know this DWF but ghoste is definitely right. If you want to learn a quest without the zerging and be forced to learn it rather than following the leader, the best way to do it is to solo it. I'm currently trying to solo tempest spine because that one is particularly bad for getting lost and also wanted to figure out the wilderness so I know where to go when I get blown off. I know its not an uber raid, but I do quite enjoy it and there seems to be a big lfm gap between 8-11 on argo. Currently, I'm stuck at fire and ice. I can pull ice fine but I can't get fire to come out of his **** chamber. :)

[branmakmuffin]

Then post an LFM "First timers and/or no spoilers"
That doesn't always work, either.


You probably already know this DWF but ghoste is definitely right. If you want to learn a quest without the zerging and be forced to learn it rather than following the leader, the best way to do it is to solo it.
Having to know a quest before you can really do a quest is lame, flat out ******** stupid lame.

[aumerle]

I agree with the OP.

Take the annoying "collect the heavy barrels and lug em around to turn in later" collection optional in Stormcleave... why bother? Most groups I'm in don't bother with it, as it gives you like (guessing) 30-100 xp (probably closer to 30), when the quest itself is worth several thousand. There are a lot of optionals just like that, worth like 18xp. Who cares? Doesn't even really matter how much the quest itself is worth to me, just 18 xp seems kinda pointless. What I would like would be to treat it like ransack/conquest and make it so that as you complete more optionals you get an increased percentage bonus to the quest xp. Or make them worth more, but either way as it is now, a lot of optionals are pretty pointless to complete.

[Ghoste]

Having to know a quest before you can really do a quest is lame, flat out ******** stupid lame.Nobody's saying you "have to". Voluntarily chosing to learn a quest better so you can be a better party member is what it's about. We're talking about people who want to give what they can strategically to a group.

If that's not your cup of tea, well whatever tickles your fancy. Please, just don't tickle your fancy in front of all of us on the forums again.

[Puddles404]

Then post an LFM "First timers and/or no spoilers"

Then you end up with no-one in the party. Or people that just tear off by themselves.


I agree with the OP.

Take the annoying "collect the heavy barrels and lug em around to turn in later" collection optional in Stormcleave... why bother? Most groups I'm in don't bother with it, as it gives you like (guessing) 30-100 xp (probably closer to 30), when the quest itself is worth several thousand. There are a lot of optionals just like that, worth like 18xp. Who cares? Doesn't even really matter how much the quest itself is worth to me, just 18 xp seems kinda pointless. What I would like would be to treat it like ransack/conquest and make it so that as you complete more optionals you get an increased percentage bonus to the quest xp. Or make them worth more, but either way as it is now, a lot of optionals are pretty pointless to complete.

The problem with Stormcleave is that individually, the optionals arent worth much. But i reckon if you went through and got every optional in that quest, even the (i have to agree) complete pain in the butt Supplies one, you'd have to get at least another 500-600 XP. And that's without considering the bonus % you get for conquest/ransack at the end. For someone trying to level up their 1st character, every drop of XP counts (for that matter, so does every trash bit of loot that pulls out of a chest. It all sells in the end).

I'd rather take my time and do the optionals. And i have to avoid 99% of parties purely because, if i didn't, i would end up like a lot of people and have absolutely no idea what happens in most of the quests. If i wanted to grind through levels, i'd be playing a different game, not this one.
Yes, the 'zerg' is a valid style of play and everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and i know the greater majority of you have all been there and done it before, but i think it's the wrong way to be playing this game.

I also think it will more than likely be the nail that keeps the lid on the coffin and stops DDO from getting out into the world

[branmakmuffin]

Nobody's saying you "have to". Voluntarily chosing to learn a quest better so you can be a better party member is what it's about.
So "Don't do a quest unless you've already done it."

Hard to argue with logic like that.

[Mhykke]

So "Don't do a quest unless you've already done it."

Hard to argue with logic like that.

How about the logic of: If one wants to learn a quest, take it upon yourself to learn it (whether it be by soloing it, or looking up the quest to get an idea of it and leading a group that wants to go slow and learn), instead of hoping someone who has been in there 50+ times will take 3 hours to hold one's hand?

[Borror0]

That doesn't always work, either.

Why?

[Ringos]

I agree with what Ghoste does. If I join a group for a quest I don't know, i fully expect the 'worst'...just trying to keep up. I go back later with a high-lvl and check everything out at my own pace. Quickened Heals get a Cleric through a lot of traps. :)


Trissa, if you ever need an extra body to go in and learn a quest, give me a shout! Chances are I could use the knowledge too.

[DoctorWhofan]

That's no solution if a player has no characters ready to run a quest when it first comes out.

I am usually ready. That's not really the point. I don't feel that I can do those quest without outside help. Also, I kinda like to finish quests in order, if I can. Last, knowing the slowness between mods, rushing to get the nexts latest and greatest done in three days, then complain that I'm bored, is rather silly. I'd rather take my time to get there, like fine wine, it needs to be sipped not guzzled. And DDO is the best gaming wine you can get.

Also, I know I am in the minority here, and I am ok with that. I am always teased, "Trissa, you're doing a raid!?!?!? The world is coming to the end!!" I chuckle and say something (hopefully witty) and move on.


Know what I did when I began feeling that way about the Titan? I went in the quest alone and learned the green puzzle by peeking through the holes beside the doors, wrote it all down, solved in on paper, then practiced it solo.

Not the first quest I did that in. Couldn't get a party to do Shrieking Mines my very first time. Really got impatient to get it done, so I looked up some info on the forums to find out what I would be facing in the quest, went in solo, took my sweet time, and completed it.

I spent over an hour in just the wheel room in The Pit. That's how long it took me to finally find all the rune/color plaques. That one on the side of the walkway where you have to jump off the side onto the sewer pipe and then turn around to see it...sneaky place to put that!

Often I won't be able to complete a quest my first time in solo like that, but the knowledge gained by propper scouting is great. And after some really slow paced scouting, zerging will be a welcome change of pace.

You said the magic word, solo. I cannot think of any of my characters regardless of level that can solo at level and below. WELL BELOW. I just don't build solo builds. I cannot afford to run in and die eight million times, especially with Titan Pre raid. ( clerics, and 7 VoD failures (but one success!) recouping! :p I do not have the UBER gear and/or the playstyle to such a thing, nor the mentality. I solo low level stuff at (very)low level but I know when to stop.

So, while a good option, just not an option for me.


You probably already know this DWF but ghoste is definitely right. If you want to learn a quest without the zerging and be forced to learn it rather than following the leader, the best way to do it is to solo it. I'm currently trying to solo tempest spine because that one is particularly bad for getting lost and also wanted to figure out the wilderness so I know where to go when I get blown off. I know its not an uber raid, but I do quite enjoy it and there seems to be a big lfm gap between 8-11 on argo. Currently, I'm stuck at fire and ice. I can pull ice fine but I can't get fire to come out of his **** chamber. :)

I memorized TS with groups, never soloing it. I know exactly where I land. see what I posted above your quote. However, my patience wears thin (and the horrid 3 day wait is not good with my old brain!) when talking the Titan. First of all, the raid is utter boring, two, the main reason to do the pre raid is to elite it at my leisure not an important thing, three, as a cleric, I am always playing keep up.


That doesn't always work, either.


Having to know a quest before you can really do a quest is lame, flat out ******** stupid lame.

Incorrect. As a DM, players who research an area or asking for people to guide or even finding a map or wrote down local gossip true or not got extra XP at the end of mission. Going on the forums and looking for info is ok, though I usually save it for after my first visit, but that's just me. Haveng people help (guide!) through quests also doesn't bother me. I most likely won't memorize it in one setting, but I am forwarned. Arming myself with the best tools I can is smart warfare. research, asking questions, obversation are what most military throughtout history use.

But knowledge will NEVER replace experiance. I have TS memorized because of EXPERIANCE, not because I read everything on the internet about it.


So "Don't do a quest unless you've already done it."

Hard to argue with logic like that.


Actually kinda makes sense. See above.

[DoctorWhofan]

I agree with what Ghoste does. If I join a group for a quest I don't know, i fully expect the 'worst'...just trying to keep up. I go back later with a high-lvl and check everything out at my own pace. Quickened Heals get a Cleric through a lot of traps. :)


Trissa, if you ever need an extra body to go in and learn a quest, give me a shout! Chances are I could use the knowledge too.

Ringos, you can't find your way around a tree even if you had a map, a compass, and the Eborron verison of a GPS!! :D;):p You said so!!:p

[DoctorWhofan]

Then you end up with no-one in the party. Or people that just tear off by themselves.



The problem with Stormcleave is that individually, the optionals arent worth much. But i reckon if you went through and got every optional in that quest, even the (i have to agree) complete pain in the butt Supplies one, you'd have to get at least another 500-600 XP. And that's without considering the bonus % you get for conquest/ransack at the end. For someone trying to level up their 1st character, every drop of XP counts (for that matter, so does every trash bit of loot that pulls out of a chest. It all sells in the end).

I'd rather take my time and do the optionals. And i have to avoid 99% of parties purely because, if i didn't, i would end up like a lot of people and have absolutely no idea what happens in most of the quests. If i wanted to grind through levels, i'd be playing a different game, not this one.
Yes, the 'zerg' is a valid style of play and everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and i know the greater majority of you have all been there and done it before, but i think it's the wrong way to be playing this game.

I also think it will more than likely be the nail that keeps the lid on the coffin and stops DDO from getting out into the world


The real reason people don't do the barrels is because of the room it takes up in the back pack space and weight. I agree though, for most quests I do get all the optionals. There are a few I do not, mostly for issues of PuGs, room in backpack, weight, or high death count.

TS, I don't get conquest, but I do try for others to get the trap bonus and ransack.

SC, well, I am one of the non barrel pushers. However is someone in the party wants to do them, ok, I'll help if I can.

Tear of Dakkaan, If I have the a rogue and INT person, oh yes!

Xoriat Cipher, is the same, If I have all the pre reqs, and no idiots in the party, I want all those tears!!! I have only done that a few times!!!

The Pit, If I can go afk by the door while a few run around, you have my blessing. I dont even want the chests. I HATE THAT QUEST!!!!

STK, oh yes ALL the optionals!! rarely, even favouring it, do I skip the optionals.

WW, the same as STK.

and so on. But mostly, especially if I haven't done the quest before, I would rather not skip optionals.

[Borror0]

Xoriat Cipher, is the same, If I have all the pre reqs, and no idiots in the party, I want all those tears!!! I have only done that a few times!!!

Eh, uh, that is Tears of Dhakan Trissa. :D

[Ghoste]

So "Don't do a quest unless you've already done it."

Hard to argue with logic like that.
Not what I said. You knew that though.

[Borror0]

Then you end up with no-one in the party. Or people that just tear off by themselves.

There are a lot of new players in this game! Also, there are a lot of players who will be wanting to help newer players without spoiling.

If you can get the quest starting is that you can't:

Do it without six players.
Do it without a cleric... or any other class.


However, you should know (generic you) that neither a full group nor a cleric is needed on normal.

[jddonkeykong]

Some of us, butterflies are fine to watch.

/applause

[Ragons]

When I was new to DDO I always in a group with Vets. They would of couse zerg through. I have this affliction called slow of foot. I am always behind trying to stay with the group so I didn't see much of the quest. Can't tell you how many times I got lost in STK and someone had to come back to get me. Many of these quest I only got to know after I became capped and went back to solo.
But this really does not help a new player who likes to explore. The only tid bit I can offer (this took me a long time to figure out) is that the optionals CAN STILL BE DONE AFTER the quest is completed! When I was leveling a new char through SC, the group I was with ran through it and finished out. I stayed behind went back and collected those barrels and handed them in. Got XP for picking them up and XP when I turned them all in. This to me was free XP and didn't see any reason to waste it also it gave me time to look around to see where everything is located. When the quest is completed and optionals have yet to be done, ask if anyone wants to stay and do the options. If you are not in any hurry this is a good time to look around.

[branmakmuffin]

How about the logic of: If one wants to learn a quest, take it upon yourself to learn it (whether it be by soloing it, or looking up the quest to get an idea of it and leading a group that wants to go slow and learn), instead of hoping someone who has been in there 50+ times will take 3 hours to hold one's hand?
Not everyone play DDO as a video game to be "beaten." Some try to play it as an RPG to be experienced. I know to most people it's just a video game, and I don't expect video gamers to play at an RP pace. What I do expect is the possibility that there exist at least some players who accept that others do not like to rush through and that said "some players" will take that into account with playing with said "others." And it is possible (but difficult) to find those who will not rush if requested not to rush.

What I don't understand is why so many people treat playing DDO like an obstacle to be overcome rather than an experience to be savored.


Why?
Why you ask questions you already know the answer to?

[ShaeNightbird]

What I don't understand is why so many people treat playing DDO like an obstacle to be overcome rather than an experience to be savored.


From what I've observed, people's inherent competitive attitudes carry over onto the games they play. Some people love the competition itself, others are into the "win no matter what" mentality, because then it's some sort of personal validation that they're better than that which they're competing against, whatever. So many people seriously don't seem to be able to enjoy anything, unless they're one upping someone, no matter what that is. At one point in my life I was extremely competitive, and ground any competition I may have had into dust, just because I could. I gave that attitude up, however, when it became obvious that it was counterproductive to anything I really was attempting to achieve. I find I enjoy life a lot more when I'm not trying to destroy any so called competition I may encounter. Besides, I don't have to. Give it time and it self destructs on it's own.

[Zenako]

Well DWF, I "learned" all the ins and outs of TS by reverse soloing it. After being a "tag-a-long" follow the leaders they have a clue type for a while, one day I just stayed in quest after Sorjek went bye-bye. You could use the portal to step back inside the mountain and I did so and then spent the next couple of hours just wandering around and making a map and generally getting a feeling of what is what and where. TS is semi unique in that there is really no map of the dungeon to follow. Which makes it really hard to follow or go places on it.

Got to also agree about the learning quests via solo method in general is fun. Finally got around to running some of the "other" desert quests once I went and solo scouted them out with my Ranger. Figured out they could be handled and then ran them with various characters.

[branmakmuffin]

I still don't get this "you've got to know a quest before you can do a quest" catch-22 attitude that seems to be so common.

[DoctorWhofan]

Eh, uh, that is Tears of Dhakan Trissa. :D


Alright, it was midnight and I should have been in bed. You are lucky it didn't turn out Tewkhrt oifp daaklkjern!!



I still don't get this "you've got to know a quest before you can do a quest" catch-22 attitude that seems to be so common.

WoW, Bran, yet again you have demostrated your amazing ability to skip over posts that ANSWER your question. Second page, near the bottom , my post.


Well DWF, I "learned" all the ins and outs of TS by reverse soloing it. After being a "tag-a-long" follow the leaders they have a clue type for a while, one day I just stayed in quest after Sorjek went bye-bye. You could use the portal to step back inside the mountain and I did so and then spent the next couple of hours just wandering around and making a map and generally getting a feeling of what is what and where. TS is semi unique in that there is really no map of the dungeon to follow. Which makes it really hard to follow or go places on it.

Got to also agree about the learning quests via solo method in general is fun. Finally got around to running some of the "other" desert quests once I went and solo scouted them out with my Ranger. Figured out they could be handled and then ran them with various characters.


I learned TS that way, too. I was in a group where we did do conquest. Everybody left at the end, and I wandered around looking for trouble. I often encourage others to do this or offer to them the 50 cent tour vice the slightly more confusing 25 cent tour that I normally offer. Anyhoo, it is a great way to learn a quest especially if there are no respawns. Hmmm, might do that in chains of flame.

Though, in the Pit, I usually died. Did I mention how much I hate that quest?

btw I like DWF. I feel special!

[ShaeNightbird]

I've done a lot of first time questing, and have been fortunate to learn the quest as I go along, because of the group I was with.
For me it makes it a lot more fun sometimes not to know the quest. Usually, however, someone in the group has done it at least once before, and can provide guidance, without what I would call spoilers for the new folks who've never done it. If people in the group want to know, that's good too. But for me personally, I think it's more fun to find out. Death, mayhem, whatever.

DDO. It's the next best thing to being there.

[Laith]

I still don't get this "you've got to know a quest before you can do a quest" catch-22 attitude that seems to be so common.of course, the solution to this is play with people you know that share your playstyle/interests.
you can ask a PUG to play your way, but obviously it won't always work.

people play the game in different ways, and more often than not: their methods are as "correct" as yours are.
Find different people if you don't agree with the ones you've got.

[Zaodon]

Optional EXP vs Quest Repetition

Its a mathematical fact that doing a quest twice in X time will grant you more EXP than doing a quest once with all the optionals which add up to < 100% bonus in X time. Many times, you are only granted access to one or two bonuses (Conquest, Ransack), with the possibility of two others (Ingenious Debilitation, Vigilant Sight) very rarely. In addition, as was pointed out in the OP, static optionals often grant pathetic EXP rewards (18 EXP for a 1300 EXP quest).

The way I view it is this:
- If you are a casual gamer/don't play often, you might be better off getting all the optionals.
- If you are "hardcore"/play often/zerger/insert-term-here, you are better off skipping all optionals and repeating the quest.

It should not be the case that repeating > optionals. Some suggestions to improve this are as follows:
1. Add Ingenious Debilitation and Vigilant Sight bonuses to all quests.
2. Increase the EXP for static optionals, and be sure it scales with difficulty.

[Zenako]

Optional EXP vs Quest Repetition

Its a mathematical fact that doing a quest twice in X time will grant you more EXP than doing a quest once with all the optionals which add up to < 100% bonus in X time. Many times, you are only granted access to one or two bonuses (Conquest, Ransack), with the possibility of two others (Ingenious Debilitation, Vigilant Sight) very rarely. In addition, as was pointed out in the OP, static optionals often grant pathetic EXP rewards (18 EXP for a 1300 EXP quest).

The way I view it is this:
- If you are a casual gamer/don't play often, you might be better off getting all the optionals.
- If you are "hardcore"/play often/zerger/insert-term-here, you are better off skipping all optionals and repeating the quest.

It should not be the case that repeating > optionals. Some suggestions to improve this are as follows:
1. Add Ingenious Debilitation and Vigilant Sight bonuses to all quests.
2. Increase the EXP for static optionals, and be sure it scales with difficulty.


But if you really are a casual / don't play often gamer, then you should be more motivated to just enjoy what you are doing at that point in time and not worry about the race to end game. All stages are fun and pose challenges to characters if you let them be challenged. Sure, an uber twink can zerg thru all the low/mid level stuff and hardly break a sweat, but is that fun? Not really it is almost more like a job for some, who only get their fun from end game.

Even bringing up concepts like EXP/min indicates a focus on the "race" to endgame. If the point of playing for someone, then just poking around and working in things at their pace despite the low EXP/min rate is fun. I know I had characters who made a point of maxing out the slayers in places like Searing Heights just because it was a goal to do so. Was it EXP/min effective, not on your life, it took a lot of time (comparatively) to do so. I found enjoyment in being able to take on and defeat the entire map (not at once mind you) as a solo character. Forced me to be creative, sometimes waiting for shrines to reset, things like that. Probably spent 3 or 4 hours for a few thousand EXP. Game within a Game.

Now I also run with groups that think nothing of running PotP or Offering of Blood 3 or 4 times in a row in 15 minutes each. That is another type of play and another type of fun.

[DoctorWhofan]

But if you really are a casual / don't play often gamer, then you should be more motivated to just enjoy what you are doing at that point in time and not worry about the race to end game. All stages are fun and pose challenges to characters if you let them be challenged. Sure, an uber twink can zerg thru all the low/mid level stuff and hardly break a sweat, but is that fun? Not really it is almost more like a job for some, who only get their fun from end game.

Even bringing up concepts like EXP/min indicates a focus on the "race" to endgame. If the point of playing for someone, then just poking around and working in things at their pace despite the low EXP/min rate is fun. I know I had characters who made a point of maxing out the slayers in places like Searing Heights just because it was a goal to do so. Was it EXP/min effective, not on your life, it took a lot of time (comparatively) to do so. I found enjoyment in being able to take on and defeat the entire map (not at once mind you) as a solo character. Forced me to be creative, sometimes waiting for shrines to reset, things like that. Probably spent 3 or 4 hours for a few thousand EXP. Game within a Game.

Now I also run with groups that think nothing of running PotP or Offering of Blood 3 or 4 times in a row in 15 minutes each. That is another type of play and another type of fun.


When you start putting numbers to a game, its time to move on. DDO is a game, regardless of playstyle. I can be on the 19th repeat of a quest and I will still get the optionals. I don't care about the XP, or XP/minute or the numbers inbetween. When I finish the quest as much as I can and explored the area, then I am happy! XP is a bonus, end reward is a bonus. Playing the game is the fun. Reducing it to a chart and astrophysics sized equations, not so much. I'm not in school anymore or an accountant, the only math I do is balancing the budget. And that's not fun at all.

[Alavatar]

When you start putting numbers to a game, its time to move on. DDO is a game, regardless of playstyle. I can be on the 19th repeat of a quest and I will still get the optionals. I don't care about the XP, or XP/minute or the numbers inbetween. When I finish the quest as much as I can and explored the area, then I am happy! XP is a bonus, end reward is a bonus. Playing the game is the fun. Reducing it to a chart and astrophysics sized equations, not so much. I'm not in school anymore or an accountant, the only math I do is balancing the budget. And that's not fun at all.

To some people, numbers = fun.

Which isn't wrong. Nor is your way wrong. Different floats for different folks boats.

As long as people don't tell me how to have fun (or what I should find fun) I'll be happy. :)

[branmakmuffin]

of course, the solution to this is play with people you know that share your playstyle/interests.
you can ask a PUG to play your way, but obviously it won't always work.

people play the game in different ways, and more often than not: their methods are as "correct" as yours are.
Find different people if you don't agree with the ones you've got.
You're just (re)stating the obvious and not addressing my comment at all. There does seem to be a catch-22 attitude (and I'm not saying you have it) that if you don't already know a quest like the back of your buttocks, don't bother to do it.

[Alavatar]

You're just (re)stating the obvious and not addressing my comment at all. There does seem to be a catch-22 attitude (and I'm not saying you have it) that if you don't already know a quest like the back of your buttocks, don't bother to do it.

I think people are saying that if you don't know a quest, but you want to learn a quest, then there are ways to do that. Otherwise, you should be content just following the leader.

[Laith]

I think people are saying that if you don't know a quest, but you want to learn a quest, then there are ways to do that. Otherwise, you should be content just following the leader.exactly: we're saying that it's not a catch-22 because the player has other options.

It's not an ideal situation, sure: but it's not really a catch-22.

[ArkoHighStar]

You're just (re)stating the obvious and not addressing my comment at all. There does seem to be a catch-22 attitude (and I'm not saying you have it) that if you don't already know a quest like the back of your buttocks, don't bother to do it.

this only persists if you are looking at existing LFM's. If you are looking to learn a quest, and do not want to be guided through it or rushed through it. Then you have 2 options.

1.Solo it (not always possible but worth a shot)
2.Put up your own LFM (and state what you are looking for)


Simply sitting and hoping for groups of the type you want will get you nowhere.

[branmakmuffin]

I think people are saying that if you don't know a quest, but you want to learn a quest, then there are ways to do that. Otherwise, you should be content just following the leader.
See, unless that kind of video gaming is appealing, it's lame to insist (and, as before, I am not saying you are doing the insisting) that someone either know the quest or blindly follow the leader. Ideally, rushers/zergers would be able to find other rushers/zergers to enjoy playing with and slowbies would be able to find slowbies. It can be a challenge to find slowbies (RP or otherwise), which is not the rushers' fault. Most people like to rush, and that's just the way it is, which is a pity.

From my point of view, this discussion is not about different people having fun with different playstyles. I can't force someone to play my way any more than they can force me to play their way. The discussion for me is more about lamenting why the majority of DDOers seem to treat low and mid levels like a chore to be endured, rather than an experience to be enjoyed.

[Mhykke]

See, unless that kind of video gaming is appealing, it's lame to insist (and, as before, I am not saying you are doing the insisting) that someone either know the quest or blindly follow the leader.

You keep repeating this "either know the quest or blindly follow the leader" argument that nobody has made. What part of "start your own group, advertising the playstyle you want for that particular quest" are you having troubles with? The fact it may take a while to get that group goin? Well, I'm sorry, but that's life. Sometimes, certain choices aren't popular. If I advertise on an LFM that in my group, I'm going to stop the entire group every 15 seconds for 3 consecutive screenshots of scenery for an album I'm putting together, and so a quest that is normally 15 minutes will take 2 hours.....I'm not going to expect that people will be jumping at the chance to join that group.


From my point of view, this discussion is not about different people having fun with different playstyles. I can't force someone to play my way any more than they can force me to play their way. The discussion for me is more about lamenting why the majority of DDOers seem to treat low and mid levels like a chore to be endured, rather than an experience to be enjoyed.

Again, b/c the low and mid levels for a lot of people IS a chore to be endured. A lot of people don't find enjoyment from doing tangleroot for literally the 250th time. Do you expect someone that's in tangleroot on his lvl 5 character (and has other capped characters) to sit there and scream with glee "oo! a hobgoblin!" around every corner.....or do you expect them to just want to get it done as fast as possible? It's just not realistic to expect people who have rolled an alt or rerolled for the nth time, who want to get that character to the level of their other characters, to not rush through content they've seen for over 2+ years.



Replies in red.

[ArkoHighStar]

See, unless that kind of video gaming is appealing, it's lame to insist (and, as before, I am not saying you are doing the insisting) that someone either know the quest or blindly follow the leader. Ideally, rushers/zergers would be able to find other rushers/zergers to enjoy playing with and slowbies would be able to find slowbies. It can be a challenge to find slowbies (RP or otherwise), which is not the rushers' fault. Most people like to rush, and that's just the way it is, which is a pity.

From my point of view, this discussion is not about different people having fun with different playstyles. I can't force someone to play my way any more than they can force me to play their way. The discussion for me is more about lamenting why the majority of DDOers seem to treat low and mid levels like a chore to be endured, rather than an experience to be enjoyed.

Because for those of us who have been here a long time, there is no allure in doing Durk's Got a secret for an hour on our 12th char. For better or ill, DDO does not have enough content to keep a lot of players doing new quests all the time, so you have several options, play the same character at cap in between mods, level a new lowbie so you can play a new class at cap, try out a new build, play very slowly and only once or twice a week so you never run out of content(there are actually people who do this). Do perma death, join a role play guild so you do all the optionals because its what your character would do.

But for many the enjoyment is at end game, so when they build something new they plan it out and make the goal of getting there the primary objective. Is it less fun to do it this way. Possibly but it all depends on how you look at it and what you enjoy.

[Caelan]

i thought the OP was about whether the optionals give appropriate amounts of experience.... not whether or not you should do them?

i don't care what others do... after all, sometimes i do every optional and explore every nook and cranny. other times i go through as quickly as possible. and sometimes i give myself challenges, like completing missions without killing anyone and still getting bonuses for breakables and such.

but none of these is the question. the question is, should more xp be given out for completing optionals?

18 xp for a single optional is ridiculously low regardless of what level your character is. but often times these are grouped with several optionals that do add up. i like an idea of having the optionals add up to a specific amount of xp where if you do them all it really does make it worth it. i don't like the idea of reducing the current xp given for the overall quest to compensate for this. seems like most ppl who do optionals now don't do them for the xp though, so maybe the systerm is good the way it is. zergers can skip them without taking a huge hit and butterfly people can do them all and enjoy their game their own way.

so i guess i'd like to see an increase, but not a huge increase.

[transtemporal]

If that's not your cup of tea, well whatever tickles your fancy. Please, just don't tickle your fancy in front of all of us on the forums again.

Ha ha, I actually lol'ed. :D

[transtemporal]

Replies in red.

Actually Mhykke, I mentioned the "know the quest or follow the leader" thing back in my response to DWF.

Bran - what I mean is basically what ghoste said. Doing the quest solo is about being a better team member (with an eye towards leading the quest). I don't do this for all quests as most of the time its not needed but the particular quest I mentioned (Tempest Spine) is bad because its a tricky layout and you can't use the map because it doesn't work. There the only option to recover lost people is to know the dungeon. I guess recovering lost team members is lame in your book?

[Ghoste]

I guess recovering lost team members is lame in your book?
Isn't someone who insists knowing the quest well is extreme pretty much the description of a lost team member?

[boldarblood]

See, unless that kind of video gaming is appealing, it's lame to insist (and, as before, I am not saying you are doing the insisting) that someone either know the quest or blindly follow the leader. Ideally, rushers/zergers would be able to find other rushers/zergers to enjoy playing with and slowbies would be able to find slowbies. It can be a challenge to find slowbies (RP or otherwise), which is not the rushers' fault. Most people like to rush, and that's just the way it is, which is a pity.

From my point of view, this discussion is not about different people having fun with different playstyles. I can't force someone to play my way any more than they can force me to play their way. The discussion for me is more about lamenting why the majority of DDOers seem to treat low and mid levels like a chore to be endured, rather than an experience to be enjoyed.

Most of the veterans have run the same quests over an over that it IS a chose at this time. After having run Tangle root for the 100th+ times why would I want to experience it again. I would much rather zerg through it for the xp/items and get the character capped as fast as I can. The lure of loot/raiding is more appealing than leveling/exploring for me personally. (zergers are not the ones that run off ahead alone and die, thats just a bad player. True zergers have more tactics and complete the quest faster and with less resources than others). If you want to take time and explore mission, setup a group for it. Most of the LFMs are zerging in nature.

[Ghoste]

I still don't get this "you've got to know a quest before you can do a quest" catch-22 attitude that seems to be so common.
Would be easier to get if you were actually looking at people's actual attitudes, as opposed to filling their mouths with your own words.

[Teech]

I feel sorry for newbs who come to the forums looking for opinions on some issue they faced.
Invariably, they make a new thread, get their issue discussed for about half a page, before someone swoops in and swiftly derails the thread into a discussion about playstyle. I've seen it happen so many times, it begins to lose it's novelty.

Great hijack, again. Shouldn't take long for the cube to come in, again.

[Alavatar]

Would be easier to get if you were actually looking at people's actual attitudes, as opposed to filling their mouths with your own words.

Don't feed the trolls, Ghoste. ;)

[transtemporal]

Isn't someone who insists knowing the quest well is extreme pretty much the description of a lost team member?

I'm trying to make sense of that dude, but I haven't had coffee yet, lol. Can you re-phrase? :)

[Ghoste]

I'm trying to make sense of that dude, but I haven't had coffee yet, lol. Can you re-phrase? :)
Maybe if I edit it by making one part italics...

I know it's not the best sentence structure in the world, but does itmake more sense now with the highlights?

[transtemporal]

Maybe if I edit it by making one part italics...

I know it's not the best sentence structure in the world, but does it make more sense now with the highlights?

Oh OK, brain is engaged now. :) I guess if you don't know the quest, you get lost but at least you're not lame. Whereas knowing the quest... lame. I often think this when I'm doing a run where the leader knows a little too much, you know? Like hes done the quest before...

Pssh. Thats the sound of a can of lame being opened.

;)

[Frodo_Lives]

There is nothing wrong with zerging and skipping lots or all of the optionals. If xp per minute is how someone enjoys the game then good for them. If that is what makes this game fun for them then by all means that is how they should play it.

However, there are some people (myself included) where DDO is not a race to cap, and I find my enjoyment in completing a quest and it's objectives, not simply racing through them for xp and end rewards. I still enjoy the process of leveling a character and playing them at all levels. Seeing how effective my bard is at 7th level, not just 14th or 16th. End game is fun, but to me it's only part of the game.

To each their own.

I will agree with the previous poster who said that they find it extremely rude for someone to join someone else's group and turn it into a speed run without even talking about how the rest of the party wants to run it. I've kicked people from groups, and dropped groups because of this. Gaming courtesy is an important part of my enjoyment, I treat people in a way that I want to be treated, because nothing ruins a nights gaming for me than having someone take over a group with their agenda. Regardless of what the rest of the party wants.

Although it does make me wonder if at character creation it gave you an option to create a new character and imediately make them level 16, but can not advance until you make enough xp to legitimately get past min xp for 16, how many people would take advantage of this?

[MrWizard]

I understand ya frodo....but just because you do not want to do optionals does not make it a speed run either.

The four ways to do a dungeon...

1- complete everything, do everything, for fun and exploration.
2- do everything possible solely for XP
3- run right through it, skipping everything just to get it done.
4- Go through the dungeon normal speed, have fun, do not waste time on optionals.

#1 is for new people who want to have fun or for people who have not done the dungeon and want to explore it. Or you are an experirenced player who is bored.

#2 makes no sense, but many do it. They take forever to do a dungeon thinking they are making more xp, solely for 'fast leveling' and getting all that extra 50gp chests.

(personally I will go along with new players and let them explore the whole dungeon. If in a group that is doing #2, then that just makes no sense whatsoever and is really a boring way to play. I will leave them in the dust or just leave the party)

#3 is a good way to reflag or do favor runs on a high level toon. Or for a challenge. For regular game play it can make it non exciting in a dungeon.

#4 My favorite. A good fun run, does not take all day, good xp, fast leveling, and enjoyable.

The reason I bring this up is many use the 'zerg or conquest' situation when in reality there are a few other ways to do it.
Conquesting and things like that, when done for xp is a waste...period. IF done for exploration and fun that is something else.

Unfortunately, along the way many people get bamboozled into thinking the only way to get good xp is too waste all there game time in one long hour and a half run in stormcleave. And that skipping optionals is 'zerging' and non enjoyable.
Both are wrong.

Communication is the key...I would suggest the LFM and party chat say the following..

new players, full explore (doing everything and checking it all out.)
Full explore for good XP! (this will get you new players and people who think that is the way to get xp and weed out others.)
Speed run!! Quick (this is obvious and will get the right people in the group.)
Fun run, no optionals/conquest (this will get people who want to have fun and get the dungeon done quick. Many fast-levelers will join this group for enjoyment and very good fast xp)

IF the LFM is not descriptive, then the leader made his own bed and must lie in it. If you do not ask about what is going on when joining a group that does not describe it in the LFM, then you are going to have to deal with a potential of not having fun.

at least, from what I see, that is how it is. Nothing better than communication. And a better understanding than just saying 'zerg or non zerg' isimplied.

[vainangel]

In my guild runs we go for everything.
It is fun to explore.

If we were doing the ops for XP, we would skip them. It is a broken award system, but still makes it worth it to see something diffrent or overcome a challenge you might not have otherwise encountered.

[moonprophet]

IMHO this discussion all goes back to, what is more important, the journey or the destination? Do you run the quests (ie:play the game) because you like the game, or because you want to get it over with as quickly as possible? I say, take your time and enjoy playing the game. The same people that rush through to powerlevel are the ones that complain about being level capped and there not being enough high level content to maintain their interest.
Most importantly, figure out what YOUR preferred playstyle is and surround yourself witgh like-minded people. Try forming a static group that meets at the same time one or two days a week. You can then start at the begining and work your way through all of the quests in order if you like.
And, back to the OP, are the optionals worth the extra XP? Sometimes. Is XP the only reward I receive from the game. heck no.

[Draccus]

i thought the OP was about whether the optionals give appropriate amounts of experience.... not whether or not you should do them?



Exactly!

A lot of people seemed to miss my point. I fully accept that most people who have a bunch of capped characters don't want to run the optionals. I wouldn't either.

My point wasn't "people should do more optionals."

My point was "Turbine should make the optionals more rewarding so that more people would consider doing them."

Very different!

As someone whose highest character is level 8, even I skip a lot of optionals when soloing and exploring because it's just not efficient. I have maxed stealth skills so I can usually decide whether or not I want to do an optional after I've completed scouted the encounter.

"Hmmm...let's see...an orange named melee mob, CR7, with 6 CR4 helpers. One chest. I'll probably use 3 buffing potions and 4 cure mod wounds potions to complete this encounter. I'll probably get 50xp, a masterwork chain shirt, 10 candles, and 43 gold. No thanks."

I think Turbine should consider increasing the XP and/or loot rewards for optionals so they're more attractive.

[dwelsh99]

IMO: 90% of the optionals are not worth the time. I can lead 5 quests, going only for goals, in the time it would take to run 2 or 3 quests with optionals.

Since XP is my primary goal, it amounts to how much time I have to play, and getting the most XP in that amount of time.

[Dawnblade]

I'd rather take my time and do the optionals. And i have to avoid 99% of parties purely because, if i didn't, i would end up like a lot of people and have absolutely no idea what happens in most of the quests. If i wanted to grind through levels, i'd be playing a different game, not this one.
Yes, the 'zerg' is a valid style of play and everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and i know the greater majority of you have all been there and done it before, but i think it's the wrong way to be playing this game.


I wouldn't say it's the wrong way to play but it's definitely not the only way. It's unfortunate to me that it seems that a lot of people prefer zerging. If I get to the point where I just want to finish quests as soon as possible to get the xp, to me the game is dead. I'm not playing it to lvl characters, I'm playing it to have fun. To me leveling is part of the fun, not the end reward.


Not everyone play DDO as a video game to be "beaten." Some try to play it as an RPG to be experienced. I know to most people it's just a video game, and I don't expect video gamers to play at an RP pace. What I do expect is the possibility that there exist at least some players who accept that others do not like to rush through and that said "some players" will take that into account with playing with said "others." And it is possible (but difficult) to find those who will not rush if requested not to rush.

What I don't understand is why so many people treat playing DDO like an obstacle to be overcome rather than an experience to be savored.


We share that same point of view. I guess to some people beating the game is the experience to be savored. I prefer to enjoy all other aspects of the game. Although I have to admit that I've been disappointed more than once at the XP rewards for the optionals. They could double the amounts currently given and still wouldn't be game breaking.

I disagree that people should be expected to know quests before hand to be more efficient. If the group stays together and more at a regular pace, even someone who has never done the quest can be as effective as someone who has done it 15 times. If anything, zerging should be advertised; it implies that even though it's a group no one will be stopping to help or care if you get lost. That is not the spirit of a group to me.

[ArkoHighStar]

Exactly!

A lot of people seemed to miss my point. I fully accept that most people who have a bunch of capped characters don't want to run the optionals. I wouldn't either.

My point wasn't "people should do more optionals."

My point was "Turbine should make the optionals more rewarding so that more people would consider doing them."

Very different!

As someone whose highest character is level 8, even I skip a lot of optionals when soloing and exploring because it's just not efficient. I have maxed stealth skills so I can usually decide whether or not I want to do an optional after I've completed scouted the encounter.

"Hmmm...let's see...an orange named melee mob, CR7, with 6 CR4 helpers. One chest. I'll probably use 3 buffing potions and 4 cure mod wounds potions to complete this encounter. I'll probably get 50xp, a masterwork chain shirt, 10 candles, and 43 gold. No thanks."

I think Turbine should consider increasing the XP and/or loot rewards for optionals so they're more attractive.

As was mentioned there are 2 ways to do this. One is balance out the xp so that doing optionals becomes more of a percentage of the total xp, and secind just boost the value of the optionals without affecting the main value.

The first option has problems in that it now penalizes one style of play over another by forcing zergers to do the optionals to bring the xp up to pre change levels. The second can unbalance the xp curve as it is adding a lot of xp to the game that is not already there.

Now adding loot for optionals makes it more interesting, and has always been proven to push people to do the optional portion if the loot is worth it(ie possible good named item)

[Teech]

I disagree that people should be expected to know quests before hand to be more efficient. If the group stays together and more at a regular pace, even someone who has never done the quest can be as effective as someone who has done it 15 times.

This really isn't true. Simple example. Full party of people who have never done a quest, against another full party of people who know it like the back of their hand. Equal characters, items, skill level, playstyle, etc etc.
We all know which group will be more efficient.

In some quests, the group that doesn't know the quest will even wipe. No matter how careful they are. (Eg. Kill Reaver before anyone gets fly.)

I have nothing against people who choose to dungeon crawl, but its really stretching it to say that knowledge of what's gonna happen doesn't matter. Yes, you can still complete quests w/o knowing about them before, but if you prefer not to die, its usually preferable to have at least one person know what goes on in said quest.

[Dawnblade]

This really isn't true. Simple example. Full party of people who have never done a quest, against another full party of people who know it like the back of their hand. Equal characters, items, skill level, playstyle, etc etc.
We all know which group will be more efficient.


I was going more along the lines of a couple of people that didn't know their way. But actually in most quests, given all the same variables, it probably wouldn't matter if they knew what was coming or not. It comes down to how well you know the game (or similar games) and your character, not necessarily individual dungeons. Sure a full group of people who has done the quest 50 times might finish without deaths where's the group of newbies might have to carry around some soulstones. But in the end, in most cases they will both finish the quest the same. As long as they had fun, it doesn't matter to me. I don't mind if my characters die a couple times while questing.

Sure, there might be the occasional raid or quest where you couldn't do without knowing about it. But then again, if you have at least one person in the group who has done it and is willing to explain, it's usually not an issue.

[branmakmuffin]

Unfortunately, along the way many people get bamboozled into thinking the only way to get good xp is too waste all there game time in one long hour and a half run in stormcleave. And that skipping optionals is 'zerging' and non enjoyable.
So many value judgments (and I don't think my small quote it taking your statement out of context). You use the word "waste." Furthermore, you are apparently assigning your personal definition to "zerg." To some, zerging simply means rushing. To others, it means efficient questing, i.e., most XP or plat or favor per minute of gaming. To some, skipping optionals is zerging, and no amount of anyone saying "No, it's not" will change that. "Zerg," like "fun," is a value judgment.

[Dawnblade]

Furthermore, you are apparently assigning your personal definition to "zerg." To some, zerging simply means rushing. To others, it means efficient questing, i.e., most XP or plat or favor per minute of gaming. To some, skipping optionals is zerging, and no amount of anyone saying "No, it's not" will change that. "Zerg," like "fun," is a value judgment.

To me if some of the group is t2+ rooms away from the rest and not stopping to let the others catch up or helping them find their way, that is zerging regardless of if they are doing optionals or not.

[DoctorWhofan]

So many value judgments (and I don't think my small quote it taking your statement out of context). You use the word "waste." Furthermore, you are apparently assigning your personal definition to "zerg." To some, zerging simply means rushing. To others, it means efficient questing, i.e., most XP or plat or favor per minute of gaming. To some, skipping optionals is zerging, and no amount of anyone saying "No, it's not" will change that. "Zerg," like "fun," is a value judgment.

Actually, Bran is right, zerging is a value judgment. THe way you play Mr. Wizard, isn't fun. I dislike zerging, alot. To rush to the end for xp/minute and completion, I feel IMHO you just wasted the programmer's time and your money, if you want a RL reason. I understand WHY sometimes people rush, but all the time? You run through a quest, then you run it into a ground, THEN you say "I'm bored, I want more stuff," Only to run that into the ground in a week. Not saying YOU, to point out Mr.Wizard, but YOU in the general sense of those who have that kind of gameplay. IMHO


But to YOU, it is fun. If you are using that as a factual statment, that is incorrect. But if you are using it as an OPINION, to each their own. I didn;t read MrWizard's original post, so I do not know where he actually stands, giving Bran's tendacy to pull everything out of context.

My opinion, I think you are wasting the programmer's effort to make the game look and feel good. We could have WoW-like graphics for all the optionals, or not have any optionals at all for that matter, to save Turbine some money and make new quests that YOU can finish in two days.

Then it isn't much of a quest, is it? It's a marathon run to the finish to see who gets it done under five minutes. "But I have done WW 16 billion times" When was the last time you killed the spiders? Or got the chest behind the fire trap? "I have like a trillion Plat, that stuff is meaningless!"

Which is sad really. I bet the programmar didn't thnink it's a waste of time. Yes, before anyone hits me up on the TS runs, I don't do conquest, for several reasons: tends to be painful to my pocketbook and the party's too, Adds about an hour to the quest, there is no chest and I do TS for the loot mostly, and most PuGs usually don't have the attention span (ie, vets dropping) to keep it going, and herding 5 new people, 1 zerger, 2 muppets, 2 vets, and one know-it-all who isn't the leader up the mountian is rough enough without the bottom to deal with!

Again, this is my OPINION, as that is yours.

[DoctorWhofan]

To me if some of the group is t2+ rooms away from the rest and not stopping to let the others catch up or helping them find their way, that is zerging regardless of if they are doing optionals or not.

No, that's stupid and rude behavior.

[Dawnblade]

No, that's stupid and rude behavior.

Ah ok, thanks for clarifying that :)

I don't mind limited amounts of rushing as long as no one is falling behind. I accept that when I join a PUG I'll be going by someone else's rules; I guess since I never start my own groups I can't really complain. But ideally I would like to play at the pace of the slowest person in the group (which tends to be me usually since it seems like everyone else has been playing this game forever :p)

I really need to find myself one of those guild things :D

[DoctorWhofan]

Ah ok, thanks for clarifying that :)

I don't mind limited amounts of rushing as long as no one is falling behind. I accept that when I join a PUG I'll be going by someone else's rules; I guess since I never start my own groups I can't really complain. But ideally I would like to play at the pace of the slowest person in the group (which tends to be me usually since it seems like everyone else has been playing this game forever :p)

I really need to find myself one of those guild things :D

When I set up TS runs, and other quests, I tend to play to the slowest and the newest person. So does my hubby. I still remember when I was new (I joined a month after start) and alot of the people then were zerging and ignoring me cries for help and disscussing how this game is boring. I almost quit then, even with the hubby playing. But I promised, no vow NEVER allow that to happen again to anyone. Good (or bad depending) thing I am stubborn!:)

[branmakmuffin]

I don't mind limited amounts of rushing as long as no one is falling behind. I accept that when I join a PUG I'll be going by someone else's rules; I guess since I never start my own groups I can't really complain. But ideally I would like to play at the pace of the slowest person in the group (which tends to be me usually since it seems like everyone else has been playing this game forever :p)
I've had it happen to me (I even started a thread about it) where either the LFM stated "no zerg" or, when directly asked what the pace was going to be and being told by the leader "slow," the quest was just as rushed as any typical PUG.

[Sue_Dark]

I like both the speed runs and the "max xp" runs depending on MY current attitude and time limits. I (like alot of the exp'd people out there) can run VoN1-4 elite in under an hour, barring someone (me sometimes) screwing something up. I can also take all day at it, if I'm in the mood for a slow, jaunt thru a decent (not great, but decent) story line.

When I start a group, I post in the startup that it will be max exp or speed. I post if I'm waiting on a healer type or not. I usually try to give prospective members an idea what to expect before they click "join". I find that this really cuts down on people getting upset because we're going too slow/fast/whatever. When I say max exp, I mean just that. I take the time to kill everything I can get to, break anything that can be broken and disable all traps, even if we dont need to hit them. I only stop when the bonuses are achieved... unless Conq is hit and I'm still fighting of course.


The only "wrong" way to play this game is the way that hurts the rest of the group's fun. Communicate, it'll help in the long run.

(and zerg questing without a dedicated healer is a blast, if you havent tried it, give it a go sometime)

[branmakmuffin]

The only "wrong" way to play this game is the way that hurts the rest of the group's fun. Communicate, it'll help in the long run.
"Bad communication" (if not outright lying) was rather the point of my last post.


(and zerg questing without a dedicated healer is a blast, if you havent tried it, give it a go sometime)
Oh, yeah, any kind of zerging sounds like a whale of good time.

[DoctorWhofan]

"Bad communication" (if not outright lying) was rather the point of my last post.


Oh, yeah, any kind of zerging sounds like a whale of good time.

...to you, but to some it IS fun. I dunno why, but to each his own, I guess.

[DoctorWhofan]

I've had it happen to me (I even started a thread about it) where either the LFM stated "no zerg" or, when directly asked what the pace was going to be and being told by the leader "slow," the quest was just as rushed as any typical PUG.

The offer still stands, Bran. It still stands.

[Teech]

Which is sad really. I bet the programmar didn't thnink it's a waste of time.

I bet they do now. While whether or not doing optionals may be 'value judgements', as have been so delicately put, the fact that so many people don't do these optionals pretty much translates into a waste of developers time.

Unless a substantial percentage of the player base actually appreciates and runs the optionals (thinks they're great and adds flavor to DDO etc etc), having them in the game can probably be interpreted as a poor design decision.

[branmakmuffin]

I bet they do now. While whether or not doing optionals may be 'value judgements', as have been so delicately put, the fact that so many people don't do these optionals pretty much translates into a waste of developers time.

Unless a substantial percentage of the player base actually appreciates and runs the optionals (thinks they're great and adds flavor to DDO etc etc), having them in the game can probably be interpreted as a poor design decision.
That's a very good point. You may not be the first person to mention it, but it's still a very good point.

A solution, possibly, mentioned elsewhere (by me and others, I think) would be to balance the XP split between main and optionals. Most people simply are not going to do something for "flavor." They have to be made to do it, either by rewarding them for doing it or by"punishing" them for not doing it.

[Mhykke]

That's a very good point. You may not be the first person to mention it, but it's still a very good point.

A solution, possibly, mentioned elsewhere (by me and others, I think) would be to balance the XP split between main and optionals. Most people simply are not going to do something for "flavor." They have to be made to do it, either by rewarding them for doing it or by"punishing" them for not doing it.


Sweet, next on the list of punishments to be given out: the abbot. We must punish the game's population for not doing the abbot!


Want to create a successful game? Start punishing people for not doing every single possible thing in the game. It'll be a huge hit!

:rolleyes:

[branmakmuffin]

Sweet, next on the list of punishments to be given out: the abbot. We must punish the game's population for not doing the abbot!

Want to create a successful game? Start punishing people for not doing every single possible thing in the game. It'll be a huge hit!

:rolleyes:
You must have punishment on the brain, because you completely ignored that other thingy I mentioned, the "reward" thingy.

Have you been a naughty boy? Is that it?

[ShaeNightbird]

What? A naughty boy? Where?

[Merkinsal]

A solution, possibly, mentioned elsewhere (by me and others, I think) would be to balance the XP split between main and optionals. Most people simply are not going to do something for "flavor." They have to be made to do it, either by rewarding them for doing it or by"punishing" them for not doing it.

A player wanting to level quickly will do a fraction of the quests out there as quickly and often as possible. The only reason to go back is for the favor, as you say they are made to go back, because they want the 1750 +2 stat increase. Many times they are then looking for elite openers only, often for no xp. Why do we want to force this player to do otherwise? Because the OP wants to do the optionals but wants more reward for doing so? To justify the devs time by forcing everybody to do the whole quest as if it was required when he designed it so it wasn't? I just don't get the sense here. None of this makes any sense to me.

[branmakmuffin]

A player wanting to level quickly will do a fraction of the quests out there as quickly and often as possible. The only reason to go back is for the favor, as you say they are made to go back, because they want the 1750 +2 stat increase. Many times they are then looking for elite openers only, often for no xp. Why do we want to force this player to do otherwise? Because the OP wants to do the optionals but wants more reward for doing so? To justify the devs time by forcing everybody to do the whole quest as if it was required when he designed it so it wasn't? I just don't get the sense here. None of this makes any sense to me.
First of all, I wrote "flavor" not "favor" (but maybe you knew that and changed the topic slightly). Second, if Turbine wanted to re-do the quest XP reward system so it's more balanced between main and optionals, why is that a problem? No one's going to make anyone do optionals. A more equitable division might make more people want to do the optionals.

[Mhykke]

First of all, I wrote "flavor" not "favor" (but maybe you knew that and changed the topic slightly). Second, if Turbine wanted to re-do the quest XP reward system so it's more balanced between main and optionals, why is that a problem? No one's going to make anyone do optionals. A more equitable division might make more people want to do the optionals.

Why is our goal to try and "make" more people want to go after optionals?

I mean, the devs, by making them "optional" in the first place, expected that not all would do them.

[branmakmuffin]

Why is our goal to try and "make" more people want to go after optionals?

I mean, the devs, by making them "optional" in the first place, expected that not all would do them.
I don't really care if anyone does them or not. This is all just an academic discussion to me.

[transtemporal]

A solution, possibly, mentioned elsewhere (by me and others, I think) would be to balance the XP split between main and optionals.

I definitely agree that optionals should be a bigger percentage of the XP for the quest. Some of them are fun but its a bit disheartening to get 40xp for something when the quest is worth 4000. Especially if the optional is hard.


Most people simply are not going to do something for "flavor."

I like doing them when it won't jeopardise the completion of the quest and won't take up a shedload of the clerics resources to complete. Example: the three earth eles in the water cavern in part 6 of TR are fine because you can decide to do it at the end of the quest depending on how well you've done. Whereas collecting the shards and the killing the clay golem in Tear of Dhakkan if you don't have a rogue to open the locked shrines is questionable.


They have to be made to do it, either by rewarding them for doing it or by"punishing" them for not doing it.

Rewarding yes, punishing no. I wouldn't want to imagine an MMO where punishment would work as a motivation. At the very least they'd be a lot of black latex and sunglasses. :)

[Frodo_Lives]

Upping the rewards for the different optionals is a good way to get some of the optionals run a little more. People have used the collect the "Tears" in Tear of Dhakaan as an example. And even considering that I play at what I would describe as a moderate pace, I still don't go looking for those things. Most Delera's runs (2nd part) who goes off to the one side for that extra named guy? Most don't.

That still isn't zerging. Zerging Delera's means you don't stop to kill anything that you can run by and only stop moving to shrine. Again if that is what floats your boat then by all means form or join a group running that way.

Bad Zergers are people who solo (or try to solo) a quest leaving other people in their dust. Believe me, I'm not impressed. I can solo TR or Delera's or STK (those being the worst for people trying to solo IMO), but I join a group to play in a group. Playing this way when there are new(er) players in the group is at best rude, and at worst it drives people away from this game.

Skipping optionals does not automatically mean it's a zerg. It means that the group is not going down that paticular hallway because the risk or time involved does not equal the reward. Up the reward and you will make the optionals more attractive. Maybe not to the xp per minute crowd, but for the rest of us they probably will get run more.

[branmakmuffin]

Rewarding yes, punishing no. I wouldn't want to imagine an MMO where punishment would work as a motivation. At the very least they'd be a lot of black latex and sunglasses. :)
So much for my "rubber hoses under the floodlights" idea.

[Jondallar]

What I don't understand is why so many people treat playing DDO like an obstacle to be overcome rather than an experience to be savored.


Because some (most?) of us have run the low content into the ground and know it backwards and forwards... it holds no mystique for us, its like asking someone to savor the flavor of chewing gum that has been chewed for 6 hours...there is no flavor left


I still don't get this "you've got to know a quest before you can do a quest" catch-22 attitude that seems to be so common.

If you are not the leader of a "slowbie" flowersniffing advertised run expect the status quo of follow the group and as efficient as possible. otherwise lead the group and take your time but noone (except may hardcore roleplayerss) wants to follow a leader who doesnt know the way or is not very good at leading when exploring new content.



The discussion for me is more about lamenting why the majority of DDOers seem to treat low and mid levels like a chore to be endured, rather than an experience to be enjoyed.
see my first responce

[ShaeNightbird]

Rewarding yes, punishing no. I wouldn't want to imagine an MMO where punishment would work as a motivation. At the very least they'd be a lot of black latex and sunglasses.

I've met people who have a problem with black latex and sunglasses. The problem was, they couldn't get enough.

[Jondallar]

I would like it if optionals, especially low lvl ones gave more exp, however if they did then people would level even more quickly, and more content would go un appreciated

[branmakmuffin]

Because some (most?) of us have run the low content into the ground and know it backwards and forwards... it holds no mystique for us, its like asking someone to savor the flavor of chewing gum that has been chewed for 6 hours...there is no flavor left
If people didn't "cap their toons" in a matter of hours, this wouldn't be an issue for them


I would like it if optionals, especially low lvl ones gave more exp, however if they did then people would level even more quickly, and more content would go un appreciated
If you mean people would get more XP because they'd be more likely to do the optionals, yes. But in the scheme I'm talking about the total XP available in a "dungeon" would be the same (as near as possible) as it is now. You seem to be implying that there's actually some benefit to having low-XP for optionals, i.e., not many people do them so not many people get XP for them and if they were worth more XP, more people would do them, which would be bad.

[Jondallar]

You seem to be implying that there's actually some benefit to having low-XP for optionals, i.e., not many people do them so not many people get XP for them and if they were worth more XP, more people would do them, which would be bad.


that is exactly what I am implying. after doing them once or twice for flavor, powergamers move on to what for them is a more fruitful character leveling experience. for the casual/rp gamer it does not matter that the optional has low xp, because the amazing artwork and imaginative quest/dungeon design is what they are after... the immersive experience.

to force powergamers to run optionals to level quickly will just annoy them and force them into another playstyle which they previously werent subjected to. it is safe to assume that if a player doesnt want to do the optional then they already experienced it enough to know what happens on the optional.

quests where i like to do the options once in a while cause they are cool:

wizard king
tear of dhakkan
offering of blood
chains of flame
crucible underwater chest
xorian cypher
von1-4
ect

[branmakmuffin]

to force powergamers to run optionals to level quickly will just annoy them and force them into another playstyle which they previously werent subjected to. it is safe to assume that if a player doesnt want to do the optional then they already experienced it enough to know what happens on the optional.
It won't "force" anyone to do anything.

Death and taxes, eh?

[transtemporal]

I've met people who have a problem with black latex and sunglasses. The problem was, they couldn't get enough.

Well shoot, those are exactly the kind of obsessed miscreants we want playing our new MMO (which has housing, ponies and half-orc druids btw)!

What you want to call it Nightbird? Handcuffs & Handcreme? :D

[transtemporal]

So much for my "rubber hoses under the floodlights" idea.

Its a winner dude, don't give up on your dream!!! It would seque nicely into a live marketing campaign with the new Handcuffs & Handcreme MMO!

[ShaeNightbird]

To force powergamers to run optionals to level quickly will just annoy them and force them into another playstyle which they previously werent subjected to. it is safe to assume that if a player doesnt want to do the optional then they already experienced it enough to know what happens on the optional.

I don't see how it would be 'forcing' anyone to do anything. If more xp were offered for optional quests, they'd still be a choice, just as they are now. I don't see any suggestions being made to sacrifice the xp for the non optional portion of the quest. So the choice, as I see it would be, get the xp for the initial quest. Get added xp if one chose to do the optionals. So where's the forcing of power gamers? Unless power gamers are those that can't let a single shred of xp get away from them. If that's so then wouldn't they be doing the optionals anyway?

[ShaeNightbird]

Well shoot, those are exactly the kind of obsessed miscreants we want playing our new MMO (which has housing, ponies and half-orc druids btw)!

What you want to call it Nightbird? Handcuffs & Handcreme? :D

Hmmm.....Handcuffs and Handcreme. Sounds too...Oil of Olay. Keep working on it. You have until Monday.

[transtemporal]

Hmmm.....Handcuffs and Handcreme. Sounds too...Oil of Olay. Keep working on it. You have until Monday.

Until Monday?!! Bloody hell, I'd better get to work!

[Dawnblade]

that is exactly what I am implying. after doing them once or twice for flavor, powergamers move on to what for them is a more fruitful character leveling experience. for the casual/rp gamer it does not matter that the optional has low xp, because the amazing artwork and imaginative quest/dungeon design is what they are after... the immersive experience.


so all roleplayers should forever be lvl 1 and fight with their starter mace because the only thing they are allowed to enjoy is the graphics and sound?

People have such misconceptions about rping.....

[branmakmuffin]

so all roleplayers should forever be lvl 1 and fight with their starter mace because the only thing they are allowed to enjoy is the graphics and sound?

People have such misconceptions about rping.....
I get along very well with my starter mace. It's my starter sickle I have issues with. It's ugly.

[Ringos]

I've met people who have a problem with black latex and sunglasses. The problem was, they couldn't get enough.

I KNEW I kept comin' back to this thread for a reason.

[branmakmuffin]

I KNEW I kept comin' back to this thread for a reason.
Not for the rubber hoses under the floodlights?

You make me sad. :(

[Jondallar]

so all roleplayers should forever be lvl 1 and fight with their starter mace because the only thing they are allowed to enjoy is the graphics and sound?

People have such misconceptions about rping.....


I never said that about rper's, just that optionals are for people that like to squeeze every drop of flavor out of a quest, and in only a few cases do they help to quickly level a character. I suppose a rper could play a power hungry character that seeks to raise their skills/lvl as quickly as possible, but a person driven like that would hardly waste time looking for optionals and exploring when they could simply move onto the next task at hand ( like a powergamer irl ;)) Doing every quest lvl appropriate w/o doing optionals still allows a character to level with content unfinished, so rper's dont "need" the xp from optionals instead they get experience (note the difference in spelling) from exploring the road less travelled. Many of he optionals are great in the game and they fill out bland quests rather nicely with content. Its a pretty rare occurrance for all the people i run with (guildies, friends, allies) to discover something new. Trust me we would love to explore something new every night, but the fact of the matter is that we play alot and have exhausted the content, including optionals.


so again, i think that adding more exp for doing optionals would cause powergamers to lvl even more quickly. and changing existing quests so that xp is disributed more evenly between primary objective and optionals would just anger powergamers because it would slow them down. what would be nice is some decent exp, lvl9-12 soloable quests, as that is the doldrums of ddo lvlling

edit: also if the rpers arent looking for an immersive experience, then who is?

[Ringos]

Not for the rubber hoses under the floodlights?

You make me sad. :(

Sorry, I thought it was rubber HORSES! Hoses, not so bad...

[DoctorWhofan]

I get the feeling Bran is ignoring for some reason. MMMmmmmmmmmm....:( He's ignored everything I have said. Even when I agreed with him!!

[Jondallar]

It won't "force" anyone to do anything.

Death and taxes, eh?


by force i meant changing the way exp is given for optionals. of course noone is forced to do anything in game, but if the path tp power is slowed by changes to exp distribution it will bother the powergamers more than the flower sniffers are bothered by getting low xp/loot for doing optionals

[transtemporal]

I get the feeling Bran is ignoring for some reason. MMMmmmmmmmmm....:( He's ignored everything I have said. Even when I agreed with him!!

He's a shy retiring flower DWF, he can't take the attention. :)

[branmakmuffin]

by force i meant changing the way exp is given for optionals. of course noone is forced to do anything in game, but if the path tp power is slowed by changes to exp distribution it will bother the powergamers more than the flower sniffers are bothered by getting low xp/loot for doing optionals
Well, I guess that's a valid point. It's the powergamers who keep DDO in business. As an RPer, I have no trouble acknowledging this.


edit: also if the rpers arent looking for an immersive experience, then who is?
PvPers.

[ShaeNightbird]

Until Monday?!! Bloody hell, I'd better get to work!

The handcuffs theme...good, good... Handcuffs and handaxes? No, too "light". We need something with some real impact. I suggest that we ask Bran if he'd like to come on board as a creative consultant and incorporate the rubber hoses and floodlights idea. Orcs and ponies, simply brilliant.
And don't sit there. You'll crush my sunglasses.

[Jondallar]

PvPers.


You are teasing me now:D

[Zenako]

The handcuffs theme...good, good... Handcuffs and handaxes? No, too "light". We need something with some real impact. I suggest that we ask Bran if he'd like to come on board as a creative consultant and incorporate the rubber hoses and floodlights idea. Orcs and ponies, simply brilliant.
And don't sit there. You'll crush my sunglasses.

Fluffy PINK Handcuffs and Adamantine Halberds...appeal to whole market.

The H&H game....


back on point - sort of - Increasing the EXP awards for optionals from being minor to non-existent to something more meaningful would be a nice step. Right now it seems that most optionals are about 1% of the quest Base. 2000 Point quest and 20 point optionals. Bump those up to 5 or 10% and you have something more significant, but not large enough to lure those who just want to get from start to finish in minimum time to divert themselves unless they want to.

The option of making more optionals like the Sacred Helm Quest in STK could be interesting too. Side quests with minor favor attached would have appeal. Even with favor set at a base of 1 on normal, that would be enough to entice those players who seek favor into going that way, just like we do with Sacred Helm. I am guessing however that since we have not seen any more quests like that one, the feedback was not all that positive on doing more like that, but that misses the point. Sacred Helm is in Part 2 of a multipart quest, and can be a pain to get to since you have to have someone in the group on Part 2 to even enter the quest IIRC. What they should consider is optional side quests that you can divert to when in a main quest that do not require you to abandon the main quest, or that occur in later parts of a quest chain. You could place a side quest or two into the TS wilderness for example without much trouble (layout wise). Things like that.

[Ringos]

I get the feeling Bran is ignoring for some reason. MMMmmmmmmmmm....:( He's ignored everything I have said. Even when I agreed with him!!

He's put you on the Ignore list...start bothering me. :)

[DoctorWhofan]

He's put you on the Ignore list...start bothering me. :)

/poke
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