Anybody have a killer NIC in their PC?

[savatage]

Getting a new PC soon and was wondering if I should get a killer nic? My friend says no, just get a good gaming router instead. Does anybody have one and have you noticed an increase in FPS??

[Freeman]

Any network card you get is still going to be several times faster than your actual internet connection. If you get a decent motherboard, then it will likely have a built-in network adapter that will be fine.

Edit: Ahh, just realized you were talking about a specific type of card. I'd almost forgotten about it, but I read about it not too long ago. From what I read, it didn't really seem to improve performance much, if at all, and it wasn't worth the extra cost.

[Aeneas]

cost to performance ratio is not good.

[Leyoni]

If you are have the money you might as well opt for the best hardware you can get. Even a marginal boost in framerate and reduction in latency issues should make it worth while.

In the big picture of real money, the cost is relatively low.

It would be best if you could find a way to test performance before having to buy.

[Leyoni]

cost to performance ratio is not good.

Is this based on experience?

It sounds like an expert opinion. What makes you an expert in this arena? Your POV seems contrary to the information from professionals who have tested the card.

I spent >20 years in the computer geek world and a 10-15% boost in framerate and an overall drop in latency seems significant. I'd have to actually run the card to see if there was noticable improvement in performance.

In DDO, where lag issues abound, reduction in latency problems -- if noticable -- would easily justify the cost for me. OTOH, I'm not strapped for money either so my view of cost is somewhat biased.

[Freeman]

Is this based on experience?

It sounds like an expert opinion. What makes you an expert in this arena? Your POV seems contrary to the information from professionals who have tested the card.

I spent >20 years in the computer geek world and a 10-15% boost in framerate and an overall drop in latency seems significant. I'd have to actually run the card to see if there was noticable improvement in performance.

In DDO, where lag issues abound, reduction in latency problems -- if noticable -- would easily justify the cost for me. OTOH, I'm not strapped for money either so my view of cost is somewhat biased.

I based my statements on the reviews I read on several websites, in which they tested the cards against multiple games. Perhaps there are other reviews that were more favorable that I missed, but if so, I haven't found them yet. In every review I read, the reviewers found that in some games, there was a minor improvement in FPS and ping rates, usually less than 10%. In other games, there was no actual improvement. However, in no cases did the reviewers actually notice any difference outside of testing numbers, so there was no actual improvement in gameplay. Also, the highest performance gains tended to be on the low-end systems that were tested.

In short, every single review I read said that the card was not worth the cost.

[Theboz]

I remember a test in Maximum Compter magazine a while ago and they said it was not worth paying for the little increase you would see.

My computer already see over 200 fps from time to time in DDO, and I have an AMD Athlon 64 and use a wireless connection. Getting a new computer and using a regular nic, you would not see any difference playing DDO if you opted to get the killer nic, maybe you would see a difference of a few latency points, but not much difference in FPS


The only way to get better Latency, is to move closer to Turbine or talking to your ISP and trying to get them to change the routing tables for your area, then your connection would take less hops to DDO

[rpasell]

I'm curious to know what "a ... Gaming Router" is.

[Theboz]

and to back up what I said, that it was not worth getting, for the little benefit you would see

http://dl.maximumpc.com/Archives/MPCHoliday06-web.pdf

Page 70

[Leyoni]

The only way to get better Latency, is to move closer to Turbine or talking to your ISP and trying to get them to change the routing tables for your area, then your connection would take less hops to DDO

In general a true statement. My point was that statements like "not worth the cost" need some qualification. And, FWIW, distance is the greatest factor in latency but not the only one. Reviews talk about milliseconds of improvement and that is certainly possible at least in principle.

The bigger factor and selling point, IMO, would be framerate and that may not be an issue. Again, I'd recommend giving it a test drive if possible to see if there was a noticable difference.

Fully agree that if you can't see the difference in performance then it isn't worth having.

[Theboz]

In general a true statement. My point was that statements like "not worth the cost" need some qualification. And, FWIW, distance is the greatest factor in latency but not the only one. Reviews talk about milliseconds of improvement and that is certainly possible at least in principle.

The bigger factor and selling point, IMO, would be framerate and that may not be an issue. Again, I'd recommend giving it a test drive if possible to see if there was a noticable difference.

Fully agree that if you can't see the difference in performance then it isn't worth having.

I the article I have a link to it said the only differnce in framerate was in low resolution were the cpu would would be more of the bottle neck, in a new computer, using a much better PC then what they had used in the test, you woul not see any improvement and you if you did it would not be anything noticeable.

So, why spend 250 bucks on a nic when you can go out and spend that on a better proc. and Videocard and acheive the same if not more improvement then buy the Killer nic

[savatage]

Interesting... The low end card is $179 and the high end card is about $279. My new system was going to have the new AMD quad chip 9950, 4 gigs of Corsair dominator ram and two nvidia 9600 512 meg cards. Pretty sure it should be able to handle DDO with high detail. My current rig is running low settings at best... I think I'll just get a good gaming router instead of the card and I can always put in the card at a later date if they come out with a better one...

[LawstCawz]

If you have the option, get rid of the phenom. It's totaly unspectactular. I wouldn't want to see AMD go under and the days of $2,000 Pentium Pros return... but the phenom is ****.

[savatage]

Why would you say the phenom is ****?

just read a review on the phenom and here is a conclusion about it from one source...

The AMD Phenom X4 9950 Quad Core Processor looks as if it is an excellent choice for gamers and computer enthusiasts. It is currently the quickest of the AMD Phenom line and is priced very competitively with the equivalent Intel processor. Performing neck and neck with the Intel Q6600 (2.4GHz), the AMD Phenom 9950 (2.6GHz) becomes a formidable rival. Overall we have seen that the AMD Phenom 9950 can easily be overclocked to 3.0GHz and with more tweaking it can get much higher. Overall I feel as if the new Phenom 9950 is a good processor with a reasonable price. With review such a nice product, we look forward to future releases by AMD.

[LawstCawz]

In anadtech we trust.

http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?i=3344&p=15

And wow, that's not even against the nice Intel processors. :rolleyes:

EDIT:
O, btw, the 3.0ghz from a phenom 9950 is hardly "easy"... in fact, that's almsot amx overclock. Lets take a Q series to around 3.8ghz... now we're talkin.

[savatage]

True, but your also talking big bucks for those Intel chips.. I'm not throwin down 1200 bucks for an intel chip when I can spend just over 200 for the AMD chip that lags just behind those overpriced intel chips....If I had the money, I might buy one but I don't..

[LawstCawz]

Cor2 Duo e8500 overclocks MUCH faster, $40 cheaper, uses less power, only 1 core less, AND does not have the reliability issues that the phenom does. Don't forget to disable coll n quiet, as performance will be erratic and degrade over time. The Intel chipset is even far superior, sad to say. :-/ But, new pc's are always fun. On a side not, ATI is on a roll though.

[Freeman]

True, but your also talking big bucks for those Intel chips.. I'm not throwin down 1200 bucks for an intel chip when I can spend just over 200 for the AMD chip that lags just behind those overpriced intel chips....If I had the money, I might buy one but I don't..

$1200 bucks for a processor? Where did you get that number? The Intel Q9450 sells for around $330 compared to the Phenom 9950's $235 price. Performance wise, the Phenom 9950 has been compared to a Q9300, which sells for around $270. For me personally, I went with the E8400. It is cheaper than any of the above chips, outperforms them on many tests, and I estimate I'll be ready to upgrade before programs that take advantage of more than two cores become common.

[Winded]

http://www.tomsguide.com/us/killer-m1-nic,review-1083.html

To say you've been in technology and not know about Tom's ,,,, Pfft...

[savatage]

I'm talking about the intel QX series chips....

The Intel Core2 Extreme QX9775 3.2GHz 12MB L2 Cache LGA 771 150W Quad-Core Processor - Retail is priced at $1,549 at newegg.

[savatage]

Thanks for that article Winded.. I totally forgot about Toms..... I guess if I can spare 200 bucks I might as well throw it in if it helps with latency...

[Freeman]

I'm talking about the intel QX series chips....

The Intel Core2 Extreme QX9775 3.2GHz 12MB L2 Cache LGA 771 150W Quad-Core Processor - Retail is priced at $1,549 at newegg.

Okay, I was looking at the processors that were comparable to the one you talked about purchasing for some crazy reason. That tends to give a more realistic view of their relative price/performance.

[Drider]

That card really won't give you much orf a performance boost over an internet based game like an MMO. These cards are really more for the hardcore FPS guys that use alot of LAN setups, especially in tournaments. In these types of games/scenarios even a miniscule performace boost can help.

[savatage]

True.. I guess I could take the extra 200 and put it towards something else...

[LawstCawz]

http://www.tomsguide.com/us/killer-m1-nic,review-1083.html

To say you've been in technology and not know about Tom's ,,,, Pfft...

Take anything from tom's with a grain of salt. :) they're often biased, inaccurate, and hire writers from the national enquirer.

[suitepotato]

YOU ARE WASTING YOUR TIME WITH SO-CALLED GAMING NICs AND ROUTERS.

Why? Because Windows SUCKS at memory management. A machine with 4GB RAM and a total memory commit above and beyond actual usage of 600MB should not be swapping to the drive nonstop. Yet clearly it does. One-off individual lag is almost entirely caused by local machine resource latency.

Shared group lag is almost entirely server resource latency or latency at a common chokepoint close to the server host. The farther you go outbound from a host to the players, the more IP routes diverge. However, out of a party of six, four may well be on the same OC3 interface near to the host.

The better thing is to streamline your machine's running state while playing DDO and many are the sites and articles on this. I used a cheap NIC on my machine for years and could consistently get perfect results in every way on the network. To this day, I have not a single NIC-related network issue. I used cheap 3Coms on my Smoothwall and it handles all my traffic without a hitch and I have a 15x2Mbps cable connection.

The biggest problem is and always has been Windows behavior, Windows configuration, and what else people having running in the background on it. Strip the running config of a Windows instance down, and most of your problems will disappear. After that, worry about your ISP and their network stability. But your NICs are NOT a big concern compared to the machine using them.

(Also, if running netstat -a at a command prompt more often than not shows hundreds of connections, you might want to have a network support person take a look at your box.)

[darthmaul121783]

most PC you buy nowdays will have 10/100/1000 so unless your trying to go Fiber you will get the best card you need

as others have stated 10/100 is much faster then what you get with internet service. i use comcast and have the best they offer and it is only at 16mb at the best of times

fiber would be the fasted you could get but as no internet provider that i'm aware of provides it . 10/100 or 10/100/1000 will do for your needs i would never by any card that is just 10 as most networks nowdays are 10/100

P.S.
and as for drive what just turn off your pageing file if you have 4gb of ran. your PC will still run

[ORCRiST]

Take anything from tom's with a grain of salt. :) they're often biased, inaccurate, and hire writers from the national enquirer.

QFT. Tom's many years ago used to be a reliable source of tech info. Not anymore. Anyone who's serious about PC hardware knows that Tom's isn't a source I would trust with my money (as far as reviews go).

I recently built a new rig with a AMD 9850 Black Edition Phenom and I love it. No, its not as fast as Intel's offerings, but was a hell of a lot cheaper and in the same performace class as their medium-range line.

Intel slashed a bunch of their CPU prices just a few days ago, so only over the last few days has Intel closed the price/performance gap a little closer compared to AMD Phenoms.

My $.02.

(P.S. Killer Gaming NIC (either version) = complete waste of money)

ORC

[branmakmuffin]

I find it hard to fathom that a NIC would make much of a difference, unless Nick is the name of the guy who assembled the system.

I, too, wonder what a "gaming router" is. I would think bits on the wire are bits on the wire. How would a router tell "gaming bits" from "Torrent bits" from "you tube" bits?"

Edit: let me forestall any nerdy remarks about the OSI model (or whatever).

[moorewr]

Hi. I work with mid-tier server and router gear configure SANs and long-haul fc/ip tunnels for a living.

You can shave a few microseconds of latency with buffering, and you can benefit from PCi-X, etc, but those benefits are only seen doing, say gigabit iSCSI and the like. Connecting to Turbine over an ISP? No benefit.

[JakLee7]

Killer NIC is not worth the money because you won't NOTICE a difference - weather there is any actual difference is subjective, but any difference there is will not be noticed by you; ergo not worth it.

Phenom - great chip in you like AMD, its a solid performer for its line
I would also reccomend going with an AMD board, the new boards with the SB750's will be out shorthly (http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?i=3360) and really look like true winners.
I would also reccomend the ati 4850 (always had good luck with sapphire, but your call on company http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814102747) as its the best bang for the buck video wise & even a card like the 3650 will destroy anything DDO can throw at it on a 19 in monitor (unless you plan on going bigger than a 22in I wouldn't even consider a higher end card beyond the 4850 since you will likely be in overkill mode for almost every game anyways).
If you are going to be running at least 4 gigs of ram make sure you are getting the 1066 vs 800 as you will notice a differnce (slight though it may be ) on the phenom
Also you will need to go VISTA64 as you will run into adressing issues with so much ram (video & system) and may run into issues with some things (like games, even DDO).
I run vista ultimate64
XP64 will not cut it for gaming, too many driver issues and you will find problems with lots of area's of support so I would not reccomend it (if you go with just standard XP you may want to parse your ram to 2gigs as it should run fine for DDO & most everything else on XP, 2 gigs is a really sweet spot, my back up machine runs that & its nice).

I used to build computers for a living & still do it for a hobby so I have lots of experience & still love reading the articles (tom's, anadtech, and a bazillion others out there, its actually surprising the conclusions people reach from the same data set, LOL).
I would be happy to impart any of my knowlege if you need some help or advice!
:)

[moorewr]

Seriously - whatever comes integrated on your motherboard is fine. Spend your money on a fast HDD, memory, and a good video card.

[DamnGenYer]

Tom's is a ****ing joke over anandtech

5% is needed to tell a difference

Tom's is only needed if no one else will review what is needed

[QuantumFX]

For a wired connection anything above a built-in NIC is a waste of time and money. The only reasons to get one is if the built in NIC is broke, it's a server with a need for serious bandwidth (I'm talking stuff that no home user is ever gonna do.) or for remote installation/management on an enterprise level network that a built in card can't support (Which is rare nowadays).

As for routers... how many computers/devices are going to be sharing the internet connection and what kind of wiring connects them? Are the computers/devices on your LAN going to be communicating with each other? If you can't answer these questions then you should ask a computer technician. (Bribing a computer tech you work with is a good idea.)

[itsmezed72]

What a 'Gaming' router is supposed to do is prioritize gaming (also VOIP) packets so you don't experience nearly as much lag if there is heavy network usage, such as somebody on another computer downloading large files. I have one of the D-Link gaming routers (like the gigabit wired ports on them) and it does the job quite well. There have been times where I've been downloading huge amounts of files to my notebook and still have smooth play on the desktop. If it's just you on the newtwork while playing, or other usage is light, then you won't see as much of a difference.

As for the video card, right now the ATi Radeon HD 4870 is the best bang for the buck at around $299 (NewEgg has a few priced at $285, $255 after $30 rebate). The HD 4870 X2 will be around $499, and the best single care you can get (although it's actually Crossfire on that card).

[moorewr]

A good rule of thumb on video cards is: the previous premium model is your best buy. You have to spend double to get a few more % of speed, and it isn't worth it. It if it were me I'd be looking at $100 Geforce 8600 & $150 Geforce 9600 cards and the like. I'm still on a Geforce 7300 myself.. good enough, frankly, for anything in DDO.

I definitely would pick Nvidia over ATi myself - but that's partly my opinion of the chips and partly the state of Linux drivers for the cards.

[savatage]

Thanks for all the answers. I too built my own PC's for years but now I just don't have time anymore to do it. And yes, the corsair dominator RAM is the 1066 speed. I too prefer Nvidia over ATI as I play combat mission and the ATI cards do not display fog. Not sure if this has been fixed with the new cards.

[branmakmuffin]

What a 'Gaming' router is supposed to do is prioritize gaming (also VOIP) packets so you don't experience nearly as much lag if there is heavy network usage, such as somebody on another computer downloading large files. I have one of the D-Link gaming routers (like the gigabit wired ports on them) and it does the job quite well. There have been times where I've been downloading huge amounts of files to my notebook and still have smooth play on the desktop. If it's just you on the newtwork while playing, or other usage is light, then you won't see as much of a difference.
This must just be based on port number. Unless some super-nerd can verify otherwise, I don't see how a router can tell what's in an IP packet.

[Arkat]

This must just be based on port number. Unless some super-nerd can verify otherwise, I don't see how a router can tell what's in an IP packet.

Normally a router can't unless it's got some sort of firewall with some sort of packet inspection (deep or otherwise) built in.

I don't know if gaming routers have any kind of packet inspection built in.

[branmakmuffin]

Normally a router can't unless it's got some sort of firewall with some sort of packet inspection (deep or otherwise) built in.

I don't know if gaming routers have any kind of packet inspection built in.
Now how do packet inspectors work? I'm not a networking expert, but how the heck would a firewall or any other internetworking device determine what kind of data is in a packet?

[Arkat]

Now how do packet inspectors work? I'm not a networking expert, but how the heck would a firewall or any other internetworking device determine what kind of data is in a packet?

Well, for me to answer that, I'd have to explain in detail the "OSI Model" but I can't do that anymore but trust me, there are multiple "parts", if you will, to a packet that a piece of hardware can scrutinize and see if it conforms to what it should be made of.

[branmakmuffin]

Well, for me to answer that, I'd have to explain in detail the "OSI Model" but I can't do that anymore but trust me, there are multiple "parts", if you will, to a packet that a piece of hardware can scrutinize and see if it conforms to what they should be made of.
I understand the OSI model, but like you, I'm very rusty (rustier, I'm sure). A detailed discussion of the OSI model would be very boring to many (possibly even including you and me).

[Arkat]

A detailed discussion of the OSI model would be very boring to many (possibly even including you and me).

You got that right! :)

[moorewr]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OSI_model

For those inclined. :)

[branmakmuffin]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OSI_model

For those inclined. :)
Of course that won't help us answer the question about what exactly a "gaming router" is, unless I mis-read something Arkat posted.

Here's my hunch (which may be wrong): a "gaming router" is a home router with a game-related brand name plastered on it.

[moorewr]

Of course that won't help us answer the question about what exactly a "gaming router" is, unless I mis-read something Arkat posted.

Here's my hunch (which may be wrong): a "gaming router" is a home router with a game-related brand name plastered on it.

If there's anything to it, then there is a fast chip in it (which means next to nothing because all your speed problems are upstream), and a configuration which gives high priority to known gaming protocols - I guess - which could help if the stuff behind that router was doign a lot of other traffic. So, if you a total hardcore p2p bandit, maybe a gaming router will help you. I guess.

[branmakmuffin]

If there's anything to it, then there is a fast chip in it (which means next to nothing because all your speed problems are upstream), and a configuration which gives high priority to known gaming protocols - I guess - which could help if the stuff behind that router was doign a lot of other traffic. So, if you a total hardcore p2p bandit, maybe a gaming router will help you. I guess.
But prioritizing traffic based on "gaming protocols" would be based on port number, I think, not actual data type. I really don't think a device can look at a data and tell DDO data from Torrent data from e-mail.

[TreknaQudane]

Of course that won't help us answer the question about what exactly a "gaming router" is, unless I mis-read something Arkat posted.

Here's my hunch (which may be wrong): a "gaming router" is a home router with a game-related brand name plastered on it.

Further going off topic.


Im inclined to agree with that.

My pet peeve was going to get Wireless Printserver/Access Point so I could get my printer working over the network (It's not located next to me or within reach of the main router.

Of course anything that fit that bill was about twenty bucks (and up) more than a router of the same manufacturer.
I ended up just snagging another router and configuring it to work for my purposes.

[branmakmuffin]

Further going off topic.

Im inclined to agree with that.

My pet peeve was going to get Wireless Printserver/Access Point so I could get my printer working over the network (It's not located next to me or within reach of the main router.

Of course anything that fit that bill was about twenty bucks (and up) more than a router of the same manufacturer.
I ended up just snagging another router and configuring it to work for my purposes.
I needed a new printer and just got one with an Ethernet interface, so I just plugged it right into my router.

Now wait a minute, is it surprising that a router with a printer server in it is more expensive than a just plain router?

[itsmezed72]

But prioritizing traffic based on "gaming protocols" would be based on port number, I think, not actual data type. I really don't think a device can look at a data and tell DDO data from Torrent data from e-mail.

Here's an article on exactly what the Gamefuel technology (the D-Link name for UbiSoft's StreamEngine) in D-Link's gaming routers does:

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,2845,1746074,00.asp

[moorewr]

But prioritizing traffic based on "gaming protocols" would be based on port number, I think, not actual data type. I really don't think a device can look at a data and tell DDO data from Torrent data from e-mail.

Plenty of devices do this. For example, I maintain a Packeteer Packet Shaper that tracks not only what session is which, but whether port 80 tcp traffic is really http (web traffic) or gnutella. To do this, it is examining session, presentation, and application layers of packets.

The fact that a single device can track flows for thousands of PCS.. well, that almost impresses me more than the moon landing and ex officio hiking undergarments.

[Arkat]

Plenty of devices do this. For example, I maintain a Packeteer Packet Shaper that tracks not only what session is which, but whether port 80 tcp traffic is really http (web traffic) or gnutella. To do this, it is examining session, presentation, and application layers of packets.

The fact that a single device can track flows for thousands of PCS.. well, that almost impresses me more than the moon landing and ex officio hiking undergarments.

Yes, indeed. But how much does the device you maintain cost? I think Bran was more or less wondering what devices a home user might use could do that sort of thing.

[moorewr]

Yes, indeed. But how much does the device you maintain cost? I think Bran was more or less wondering what devices a home user might use could do that sort of thing.

We're a model behind (and probably paid twice what's quoted here):
http://www.shaperworks.com/PacketShaper-7500.asp

Possibly overkill for your house. :p

[Arkat]

Possibly overkill for your house. :p


Just a tad!

[Missing_Minds]

Is this based on experience?

It sounds like an expert opinion. What makes you an expert in this arena? Your POV seems contrary to the information from professionals who have tested the card.

I spent >20 years in the computer geek world and a 10-15% boost in framerate and an overall drop in latency seems significant. I'd have to actually run the card to see if there was noticable improvement in performance.

In DDO, where lag issues abound, reduction in latency problems -- if noticable -- would easily justify the cost for me. OTOH, I'm not strapped for money either so my view of cost is somewhat biased.

A high speed NIC would not prove your latency when the issue is your connection to the DDO servers. You can do nothing about the hops to the server. Your internal connection could cause issues, but almost all mobo these days come with hardware based NICs instead of software based NICs. (if you are running a software based NIC, then getting a separate NIC would make a noticeable difference.)

The possible throughput increase you could see is what.. MAYBE 5 frames IF that. In which case you are better spending the money (normally what... $50-$150 for one of the tricked out NICs) on your graphics card or more RAM.

Now, let me take a step back here. I type the above based on the case where there is an actual router and firewall between you and your ISP connection. If your computer is the one actually hooked up directly to the connection, such that you have your own running firewall and everything, having a tricked out NIC may infact actually show reasonable preformance enhancement. This is dependent upon how well your NIC and firewall program can talk to each other.

BTW, when you talk percentages, why not talk actual numbers. I can make percentages say anything I want, and statically I can throw a rock and hit the moon.

[SlipperyPete]

The only thing I have to add which I have not yet seen mentioned: DDo really isn't a game where an extra 5-10 frames per second is going to make a substantial difference in your performance. I wouldn't invest the extra money unless I were involved in first per shooters such as CSS or if you really, really wanted ever possible advantage in the DDo PvP environment.

A gaming system has many potential bottlenecks. Are there any other area where $200 can be invested that would be better spent?

Can someone please tell me why a $210 network card is still using a PCI interface? I hope the specs were wrong in Tom's Review.

[Theboz]

The only thing I have to add which I have not yet seen mentioned: DDo really isn't a game where an extra 5-10 frames per second is going to make a substantial difference in your performance. I wouldn't invest the extra money unless I were involved in first per shooters such as CSS or if you really, really wanted ever possible advantage in the DDo PvP environment.

A gaming system has many potential bottlenecks. Are there any other area where $200 can be invested that would be better spent?

Can someone please tell me why a $210 network card is still using a PCI interface? I hope the specs were wrong in Tom's Review.

the card is over a year old