2handed fighting = extinct?

[KiwiJoe]

I think inflated mob hitpoints have savagely hurt 2handed fighting builds. Whilst a raging Barb. is still VERY useful for wacking Bosses, in general 2handed builds are massivly inferior to TWF's dual vorpalling/wounding/wp everything to death before you can DPS it with a great axe/sword.

Between tempest rangers and fingering sorcs. there is little point in swinging a dps 2hander least it be insta killed at 1/4 health :(

Time for a new 2handed fighting feat to even up the playing field I reckon. :D

[Illuminati]

I think inflated mob hitpoints have savagely hurt 2handed fighting builds. Whilst a raging Barb. is still VERY useful for wacking Bosses, in general 2handed builds are massivly inferior to TWF's dual vorpalling/wounding/wp everything to death before you can DPS it with a great axe/sword.

Between tempest rangers and fingering sorcs. there is little point in swinging a dps 2hander least it be insta killed at 1/4 health :(

Time for a new 2handed fighting feat to even up the playing field I reckon. :D

Agreed. Even when you learn the 2 step chop attack (a fast attack while THF strafing left/right) it is still sloooooow. Even looking at the numbers with glancing blow 2HF is just meh.

It needs some spice, not sure what though. I have all the new Pali enh on my level 16 with a sword of shadows. I feel like im fighting in jello, even with crits in the 500's, etc.

[Twerpp]

Slower, the sheer amount of weapon effects on greensteels make 2wf dps much better now. Now add the fact you can add stats and AC to it as well...yup, pretty gimp atm.

[MrWizard]

I think inflated mob hitpoints have savagely hurt 2handed fighting builds. Whilst a raging Barb. is still VERY useful for wacking Bosses, in general 2handed builds are massivly inferior to TWF's dual vorpalling/wounding/wp everything to death before you can DPS it with a great axe/sword.

Between tempest rangers and fingering sorcs. there is little point in swinging a dps 2hander least it be insta killed at 1/4 health :(

Time for a new 2handed fighting feat to even up the playing field I reckon. :D


I use 2hf for different reasons on my fighters. For one, I have a great sword paralyzer. In a large mob of non reds that can be para'd, this works exceptionally well. Helps with trip too a lot.

Got a vorpal great axe and it is just plain fun at times.

For red named with tons of HP, I do not have many two handers built to slow them down like cripple, destruct, and the like, so it goes to twf at that point til they are easy to hit and really slowed down....then I pull out a billy baroo 2hander and wallop em..

[llevenbaxx]

Im still ****ed the Devs let an animator decide Greatswords should be even slower than G-axes. Double slap!.. and thumbs down for thinking this would be no big deal.

[maddmatt70]

Well a big part of the reason two handers have become less worthwhile is touched upon by Twerpp weapons do a much higher % of the damage then in pnp. Feats and ability scores are both far less important in ddo in regards to damage then in pnp. My wf sorc who has 26 strength with rage spell, only the power attack feat, and has a mineral II maul does more damage then a sword and boarder and this has everything to do with the weapon to overall dps ratio.

On a side note the whole pursuit for +3 tomes I find kind of funny. I mean from a damage, to hit, hit point, save and dcs perspective a half a modifier is virtually meaningless in ddo. By the way I expected +3 tomes to be dropping in the new raids with much greater frequency then they do - I guess this falls into the sucka is born every minute scenario. Turbine needs a carrot after people loot everything from a quest even though at this point a half a modifier doesn't mean anything in the larger scheme of things...

[Kris_P._Letus]

bah...i wouldnt say useless. im a 2hf, and i handle myself pretty well. i have a tier II mineral II greataxe (long way away from tier 3) and i hold my own against even 2wf'ers with dual tier 3's. not all the time....but most times. i find it amusing that my glancing blows do as much as some sword and boarders normal attacks. and that i can hit a mob with my normal attack AND my glancing blow on the same swing. i may not be a huge damage dealer with my greataxe, but like i said, i hold my own. not to mention....the game ISNT about a single person doing as much damage as god. whats it matter if one person takes down 1 mob, or if 3 people combined take him down? the game ISNT about being a god type character.

who cares if you are the strongest, most dps'ing, highest ac, highest strenght character? its a game. a game is meant to be fun. not a job. i dont get paid to play ddo, so why should i try and be the bestest of the best?

bah.

funny thing...i was in a group the other night, and i was asked how many hp i had. when i told them, i was laughed at by a few of the other barbs. told to reroll my gimp toon. funny thing was....i ended up outkilling everyone (but that stupid monk!!! curses!! :P ). not to mention they died. a few times. when i didnt die the whole run. yeah. i need a reroll. :rolleyes:

[Spartus]

funny thing...i was in a group the other night, and i was asked how many hp i had. when i told them, i was laughed at by a few of the other barbs. told to reroll my gimp toon. funny thing was....i ended up outkilling everyone (but that stupid monk!!! curses!! :P ). not to mention they died. a few times. when i didnt die the whole run. yeah. i need a reroll. :rolleyes:

Sounds like those other barbs need to reroll their players.

[Beherit_Baphomar]

funny thing...i was in a group the other night, and i was asked how many hp i had. when i told them, i was laughed at by a few of the other barbs. told to reroll my gimp toon. funny thing was....i ended up outkilling everyone (but that stupid monk!!! curses!! :P ). not to mention they died. a few times. when i didnt die the whole run. yeah. i need a reroll. :rolleyes:

My barb loves to hear the other barbs say they have 800+ HP's...means he doesnt have any DPS competition from em.

[Zenako]

My barb loves to hear the other barbs say they have 800+ HP's...means he doesnt have any DPS competition from em.

Exactly, extremes mean they had to hurt themselves somewhere else....When Built to excel at one thing, often only so so on other aspects.

[tihocan]

I personally think 2HF is fine. The main issue I see is that the current trend is to make TWF characters, so if you're the single 2HF in a party while all other melees are TWF using vorpals / wounding / puncturing, it probably won't work too well for you. But in the end, it's all about group dynamics, if you were playing with other DPS 2HF then the mob would probably die just as fast (except for some specific non red-named monsters whose HPs are too high for DPS to be viable, but they're still a minority).

[Angelus_dead]

But in the end, it's all about group dynamics, if you were playing with other DPS 2HF then the mob would probably die just as fast (except for some specific non red-named monsters whose HPs are too high for DPS to be viable, but they're still a minority).
There are some characters who mainly only go to Shroud, Hound, VOD, and Reaver. THF is quite worse than TWF in those places.

[Reisz]

Don't discount THF again DR. The type that you see on portals, powerful elementals, and mob barbarian. Mod 6 introduce a lot of DR that can not be bypassed, even with Transmutting.

Remember that the DR is subtracted from every hit and is therefore applied more times to a TWF.

[Aerilyn]

I have a Level 15 Barbarian that has a Tier 3, pure Pos Greensteel GA and for what it's worth I am having a blast, crits over 200 every 2 or 3 swings and can even crit the portals in the shroud for over 90HP/swing. I ran Invaiders on Hard and Elite the other day and was neck and neck with the Monk for both runs. He outkilled me by 3 on the first run and and I outkilled him by 5 on the elite run. The group was very smooth and balanced. I do understand what the OP means though as there are several in my Guild that run either Tempest Rangers or Pierce Speced Barbarians (dual weilding W/P) and other than drawing aggro off of them they usually are way out from on the kill counts but that means nothing to me as long as I get loot and save on resources during the campaign:)

Just my 2 cents

Aerilyn

[Angelus_dead]

Remember that the DR is subtracted from every hit and is therefore applied more times to a TWF.
Inaccurate. Non-bypassable DR is also a big problem for THF fighters, as it reduces or negates their Glancing Blow bonus damage.

[tihocan]

There are some characters who mainly only go to Shroud, Hound, VOD, and Reaver. THF is quite worse than TWF in those places.
Agreed for Shroud / Hound, but in VoD I don't see THF being worse (it will kill the trash mob slower, but from my limited experience, the main threats are the named orthons - DPS, the bats - magic, and the boss - DPS), and in the Reaver both THF and TWF are useless anyway.

[Averroes]

Agreed for Shroud / Hound, but in VoD I don't see THF being worse (it will kill the trash mob slower, but from my limited experience, the main threats are the named orthons - DPS, the bats - magic, and the boss - DPS), and in the Reaver both THF and TWF are useless anyway.

I don't even agree for Shroud necessarily. TWF is better for killing trash in part 2, equivalent to THF for killing trash in part 1 and red named in part 2, and worse than THF in part 4 (where the reach of a two-handed weapon allows you to avoid most of Harry's melee damage). They're probably equivalent again in part 5.

THF is a significant advantage in VOD though -- same reason. Sulo's melee attack range is 2/3 that of a greataxe. And glancing blows are nice for bats...


My barb continues to use his vorpal only in part 2 of shroud, against green devils in VoD, and against Protectors in Hound. DPS still works for everything else...

[Rameses]

whats all this talk of DPS?

Wounding of Puncturing, Vorpals, Banishing and the likes does not equate to DPS.

True DPS is a thing of the past and a forgotten art used exclusively by a few that understand it's mastery of all quests excluding Raids.

I am, Rameses!

[Pyromaniac]

Unfortunately 2HF needs a boost to keep up with TWF.

[Dark-Star]

I was probably the biggest twf proponent up to about two weeks ago, when I ran an elite ritual with another barb that had a mineral2 maul. I had two Deathnips and expected to wipe the floor with him in the kill count. I beat him by two kills. Granted normally on trash I'd use two wops, and this was really just a comparison I wanted to see in dps vs. dps, but the results were surprising to me.

There are other reasons that twf is superior, tactics, para off hand, general versatility and wops/banishers mainly, but as far as pure dps goes, the gap is much closer than I personally believed.

I think for thf, the existing feats are fine. What they need to do is add two handed piercers like a scythe or spear, one with x4 crit range and one with a larger threat range - both with low base damage, and allow for wounding of puncturing and banishing on them. Another idea might be a toggle that allows you to set the amount of attacks you want in your swing animation, so that you are not taking the -4 to hit as you strafe.

[KiwiJoe]

I agree, spears and a x4 crit 2hander would be nice.

[Cold_Stele]

As Illuminati says, in an effort to un-gimp THF you have to keep continuously moving in order to break the incredibly slow attack chain (and take -4 on all attacks).

Given that, and the fact that the current metagame has so drastically devalued DPS, I don't see how anyone could debate that THF is in big trouble...

/prays for +3 Dex tome to qualify for GTWF

[baddax]

Are you guys serious ? Is this a joke?

[Noctus]

Are you guys serious ? Is this a joke?

A player of equal skill and equal equipment level will do significantly more DPS going TWF than going THF. And if he should be aiming for effects to land he also will be extremely better going TWF again.

So for dedicated combat builds there is no reason to go THF. There may be other reasons to go THF, like style, roleplaying or some hybrid charcters who dont have the points to put into DEX, but from a combat effeciency standpoint THF is inferior.

[Ereshkigal]

I agree, spears and a x4 crit 2hander would be nice.


Or add Halberds and Scythes :)

[BlackSteel]

personally dont see how twf can be much better or better at all than 2hf when going for DPS. TWF gets the added benefit of about 25% more attacks (barb vs barb, not barb vs tempest) so more chances when going for special procs like vorp or smite. But for damage, the twf is going to have to make up a 40 damage a swing difference.

Like Dark said, with Deathnips vs Min 2 the difference was practically nothing. 2 kills being less than half a percent in total. And a Mineral 2 maul isnt exactly the best weapon to use on a bunch of gnolls, but I dont think the results wouldve varied much even with a decent bane weapon.

THF isnt lacking in the DPS department, merely the dominance of the Power 5 weapons with on hit/crit specials has made sheer number of attacks a higher priority. But frankly short of protectors in Hound, devils in VoD, and devils/orthons in shroud, theres not much reason for a THF to use the Power 5 weapons. I carry a vorpal and only dust it off for these 3 occasions (before Shroud, I just sold them all, actually had to buy one back off the AH). DPS is any easy comparison on practically everything else in game. I good barb should be doing 60-70 +10 elemental +30 glancing self buffed. In order for something to be a good size for vorpaling it needs how much hp?

1 miss
2-16 hits 65 +10 + 15 (average glancing) 90 a hit
17-20 crits 213 +10 +15 (not going to bother with burst damage) 238 a crit
-------
15 x 90 = 1350
4 x 238 = 952
-------
2302 hp

Looks like even on the elite devils it would be faster to DPS for the THF than to vorp. If noone else was using same tactics. But outside of these raids, no other nonboss mobs come close to this hp. On normal settings in the vale, most stuff should go down in 3-5. Elite 5-7 hits. (excluding elementals, those things are sturdier than they should be) If you add a bard to the group, or the occasional sneak attack for when you dont have aggro those numbers will rise; and make DPS an even better option.

Even sold my smiting falchion after a bit of use. Sure it was fun to see a crit and a failed save on that lucky first attack, but if you dont crit 3, or 4, or 5 hits in a row, or if it saves, then that golem wouldve already been dead. Maybe I just prefer to know what I'm going to hit for, and not have to rely on the luck of the dice in order to kill my trash mobs.

The only thing I'd like to see changed about THF is that redicously stupid last attack animation. Or if you must keep it in, atleast speed it up. As of right now, I dance around anything that I can afford the additional -4 to hit on. Thankfully most things die fast enough where resetting the animation is just a question of moving to the next mob.

[Missing_Minds]

Unfortunately 2HF needs a boost to keep up with TWF.

I'm curious why this perception exists.

2hf means you get to deal glancing blows on surrounding NPCs, 2wf does not do this.

2wf is superior one on one, however, it is NOT superior in groups. In group, 2wf is superior. At least this is what I've learned from my own play testing.

But if it makes the rest of you feel that you are gimped, better, I've already proposed two methods to help out thf (the latest one being more balanced of the two for end game), so don't think I've not tried to help players of 2hf out.

yes, I'm addicted to seeing lots of red numbers. :)

[spifflove]

I think inflated mob hitpoints have savagely hurt 2handed fighting builds. Whilst a raging Barb. is still VERY useful for wacking Bosses, in general 2handed builds are massivly inferior to TWF's dual vorpalling/wounding/wp everything to death before you can DPS it with a great axe/sword.

Between tempest rangers and fingering sorcs. there is little point in swinging a dps 2hander least it be insta killed at 1/4 health :(

Time for a new 2handed fighting feat to even up the playing field I reckon. :D

Wow, I'd never thought I'd see the day.

[BlackSteel]

Agreed. Even when you learn the 2 step chop attack (a fast attack while THF strafing left/right) it is still sloooooow. Even looking at the numbers with glancing blow 2HF is just meh.

It needs some spice, not sure what though. I have all the new Pali enh on my level 16 with a sword of shadows. I feel like im fighting in jello, even with crits in the 500's, etc.

Greatsword speeds are pretty painful, but hasted mauls and greataxes are not so bad. Theres an old post by Shade that clocks in a hasted GA at around 135 / minute. Where the TWF does about 170 / min, and a tempest close to 190. 135 to 170 isnt that huge a difference, if that THF needs to complete his chain tho, that number drops down to about 110, almost doubling the difference.

[boldarblood]

From a pure DPS point of view there is not huge difference, counting everything. Where 2WF gets the advantage is when it gets to the power5 weapons (well power 4, paralyzers kinda suck) :P. When you get into smiting, vorpal, banish, puncutring, etc, thats where the difference becomes noticeable.

[KiwiJoe]

For starters they could make all 2handed weapons swing at GA speed. I remember Turbine giving some COMPLETLY LAME argument about how Great Swords etc 'wouldn't look right' sped up :rolleyes: (like daggers, short swords, picks and rapiers look right with slashing animations).

[BlackSteel]

From a pure DPS point of view there is not huge difference, counting everything. Where 2WF gets the advantage is when it gets to the power5 weapons (well power 4, paralyzers kinda suck) :P. When you get into smiting, vorpal, banish, puncutring, etc, thats where the difference becomes noticeable.

But short of the mobs in the 3 raids I mentioned, nothing else is noticably faster to kill with the Power 5 unless you have loaded dice. With the exception of earth elementals and the rare boss that can be con killed.

[BlackSteel]

For starters they could make all 2handed weapons swing at GA speed. I remember Turbine giving some COMPLETLY LAME argument about how Great Swords etc 'wouldn't look right' sped up :rolleyes: (like daggers, short swords, picks and rapiers look right with slashing animations).

I would love to use a falchion; it would actually be my weapon of choice if it wasnt so painfully slow. More so than the greatsword.

[KiwiJoe]

But short of the mobs in the 3 raids I mentioned, nothing else is noticably faster to kill with the Power 5 unless you have loaded dice. With the exception of earth elementals and the rare boss that can be con killed.

What else is thjere to do end game?

Farm HOX+VOD+Shourd and a few Reavers which don't count really since you can 2man em. Thats ALL I do eva.

[BlackSteel]

Sure even if you look at just the 3 raids, only part 2 of shroud is vorpal worthy, then the what dozen devils at start of part 4? Even with THF in a full raid I usually expect 3-5 vorpals myself in part 2. 30 more attacks a minute isnt an awful lot. In hound, only the protectors that spawn need to be vorpaled, the drones and beholders are just big ***** cats. You MAY see 5 protectors the whole quest. Nothing in the Subt. requires power 5 weapons, the beholders have the most hp of anything, and I'm not sure if you can even vorpal a floating head.

VoD is a bit different, since the majority of the mobs are going to be the elite devils. But they're nothing more than a nuasance with the right cc. The bats and the orthons are the real concerns, and plain jane DPS is what works for those.

[maddmatt70]

Sure even if you look at just the 3 raids, only part 2 of shroud is vorpal worthy, then the what dozen devils at start of part 4? Even with THF in a full raid I usually expect 3-5 vorpals myself in part 2. 30 more attacks a minute isnt an awful lot. In hound, only the protectors that spawn need to be vorpaled, the drones and beholders are just big ***** cats. You MAY see 5 protectors the whole quest. Nothing in the Subt. requires power 5 weapons, the beholders have the most hp of anything, and I'm not sure if you can even vorpal a floating head.

VoD is a bit different, since the majority of the mobs are going to be the elite devils. But they're nothing more than a nuasance with the right cc. The bats and the orthons are the real concerns, and plain jane DPS is what works for those.

I vorpal the teleporting devils in Vod. The other method that works there is wounding. Advantage twf over thf in both those cases.

Wounders are better in the hound then vorpals on the flensers, even if you are a slashing specced twf. Wounders also crush beholders and mind flayers..

Who cares about what weapon you use in the subterrane although I would recommend not using dps on orthons but that is about it...

Twf does more damage against red names. The combination of bard songs and two greeensteel weapons is obscene.

One big advantage that thf has over twf is that non ranger twf builds have to worry about dex whereas thf don't. General thf have higher con scores because they don't have to worry about dex and thus more hit points which is a nice defensive advantage.

[BlackSteel]

Trying to crunch some numbers, following the format used in several builder posts. Using attacks/min from an old shade post. All weapons are greensteel mineral. WF THF Barb vs Human TWF. Including glancing blows on single target. Put MH/OH attacks at 50/50 if this is wrong please let me know and I'll adjust, wasnt sure, so went off the Max TWF post that had 5 of each in a 10 second span.

Greataxe 135 attacks/min
3d6 +5 (15.5) + 7 (holy) + 3.5 (acid) + 27 (str) + 22 (PA) = 75
*Critical adds (31 base + 11 burst + 11 blast + 54 str + 44 PA +18 seeker) = 244
** add 20 more for 20s
glancing blows 28

135 attacks
5% = 6.75 attacks miss (round up to 7)
20% = 27 crit
**5% = 7 20s for 20 extra
75% = 101 regular hits
glancing blows 40% = 54

101 x 75 + 27 x 244 + 7 x 20 + 54 x 28 = 7575 + 6588 + 140 + 1512 = 15815

TWF Human Barb 170 attacks/min
w/ Khopesh (Main Hand)
1d10+5 (~10.5) + 7 holy + 18 Str + 3.5 ele + 8 Power Attack = 47
*Critical adds (~21 base dmg + 11 +11 +36 Strength + 16 Power Attack + 18 Seeker) = 160
w/ Khopesh (Off Hand)
1d10+5 (~10.5) + + 7 holy + 9 Str + 3.5 ele + 8 Power Attack = 38
*Critical adds (~21 base dmg + 11 +11 +18 Strength + 16 Power Attack + 18 Seeker) = 133

170 attacks
5% = 8.5 miss (9) 4 OH / 5 MH
30% = 51 crit 26 MH / 25 OH
65 % = 110 hit 65 MH / 65 OH
9 20s = 180 blast

26 x 160 + 25 x 133 + 65 x 47 + 65 x 38 + 180 = 4160 + 3325 + 2470 + 3055 + 180 = 13190

15815 vs 13190

[ArkoHighStar]

As Illuminati says, in an effort to un-gimp THF you have to keep continuously moving in order to break the incredibly slow attack chain (and take -4 on all attacks).

Given that, and the fact that the current metagame has so drastically devalued DPS, I don't see how anyone could debate that THF is in big trouble...

/prays for +3 Dex tome to qualify for GTWF

not if you have spring attack:D

[KiwiJoe]

Trying to crunch some numbers, following the format used in several builder posts. Using attacks/min from an old shade post. All weapons are greensteel mineral. WF THF Barb vs Human TWF. Including glancing blows on single target. Put MH/OH attacks at 50/50 if this is wrong please let me know and I'll adjust, wasnt sure, so went off the Max TWF post that had 5 of each in a 10 second span.

Greataxe 135 attacks/min
3d6 +5 (15.5) + 7 (holy) + 3.5 (acid) + 27 (str) + 22 (PA) = 75
*Critical adds (31 base + 11 burst + 11 blast + 54 str + 44 PA +18 seeker) = 244
** add 20 more for 20s
glancing blows 28

135 attacks
5% = 6.75 attacks miss (round up to 7)
20% = 27 crit
**5% = 7 20s for 20 extra
75% = 101 regular hits
glancing blows 40% = 54

101 x 75 + 27 x 244 + 7 x 20 + 54 x 28 = 7575 + 6588 + 140 + 1512 = 15815

TWF Human Barb 170 attacks/min
w/ Khopesh (Main Hand)
1d10+5 (~10.5) + 7 holy + 18 Str + 3.5 ele + 8 Power Attack = 47
*Critical adds (~21 base dmg + 11 +11 +36 Strength + 16 Power Attack + 18 Seeker) = 160
w/ Khopesh (Off Hand)
1d10+5 (~10.5) + + 7 holy + 9 Str + 3.5 ele + 8 Power Attack = 38
*Critical adds (~21 base dmg + 11 +11 +18 Strength + 16 Power Attack + 18 Seeker) = 133

170 attacks
5% = 8.5 miss (9) 4 OH / 5 MH
30% = 51 crit 26 MH / 25 OH
65 % = 110 hit 65 MH / 65 OH
9 20s = 180 blast

26 x 160 + 25 x 133 + 65 x 47 + 65 x 38 + 180 = 4160 + 3325 + 2470 + 3055 + 180 = 13190

15815 vs 13190

Interesting numbers... but TOTALLY beside the point.

The point of the thread wasn't that 2handed DPS is gimped VS TWF DPS. The point is that inflated mob hit points end game makes DPS in general inferior to W/P, Vorpal etc. THUS TWF is superior due to the extra attacks and the fact that you can't W/P AT ALL with 2handed fighting. :(

[BlackSteel]

Interesting numbers... but TOTALLY beside the point.

The point of the thread wasn't that 2handed DPS is gimped VS TWF DPS. The point is that inflated mob hit points end game makes DPS in general inferior to W/P, Vorpal etc. THUS TWF is superior due to the extra attacks and the fact that you can't W/P AT ALL with 2handed fighting. :(

actually i thought it was

see my other posts, w/p, vorpal, etc, is so rare an occassion to not be needed with the damage u can do as THF

[Ranmaru2]

Im still ****ed the Devs let an animator decide Greatswords should be even slower than G-axes. Double slap!.. and thumbs down for thinking this would be no big deal.

Well, if you think of it from a real life perspective, a Great Axe does have greater speed potential versus a Great Sword due to its design.

There's more hilt to make quick adjustments than that of a Great Sword, and much better weight distribution.

[KKDragonLord]

are you guys sure that greatswords attack slower than great axes?
i made an experiment myself and did not count the swings by the animation but by a 20 seconds amount of time
and both great axe and great sword had about the same number of attacks...
the only thing that influences attack speed is the base attack
the animation is slow, but thats just how it looks, in the end its all the same.

[BlackSteel]

greatsword while compared to GA's were somewhere around 5-10 less a minute, falchions are gonna be another deviation under that. Staffs are the fastest of all the 2 handers.

Its not the post I was looking for, but it'll work:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=132765&highlight=attacks%2Fminute&page=2

[Newtons_Apple]

I was probably the biggest twf proponent up to about two weeks ago, when I ran an elite ritual with another barb that had a mineral2 maul. I had two Deathnips and expected to wipe the floor with him in the kill count. I beat him by two kills. Granted normally on trash I'd use two wops, and this was really just a comparison I wanted to see in dps vs. dps, but the results were surprising to me.

There are other reasons that twf is superior, tactics, para off hand, general versatility and wops/banishers mainly, but as far as pure dps goes, the gap is much closer than I personally believed.

I think for thf, the existing feats are fine. What they need to do is add two handed piercers like a scythe or spear, one with x4 crit range and one with a larger threat range - both with low base damage, and allow for wounding of puncturing and banishing on them. Another idea might be a toggle that allows you to set the amount of attacks you want in your swing animation, so that you are not taking the -4 to hit as you strafe.

/signed

That's a good idea. But at the same time, do you think the 2hf piercers would still be gimped because they're still only swinging a single wep? Not on a DPS level mind you, but a 2wf for example can swing a paralyzer and a w/p at the same time to devastating effect.

[llevenbaxx]

Well, if you think of it from a real life perspective, a Great Axe does have greater speed potential versus a Great Sword due to its design.

There's more hilt to make quick adjustments than that of a Great Sword, and much better weight distribution.

This game and real life have so little(if anything;)) in common, why start here?:) From a gaming perspective(which imo is precisely a million times more relavent to this subject) it really has no basis. Just a bad decision made by Devs to let and artist affect a game play/mechanic decision.

EDIT Imo weapons were already pretty balanced and Turbine more created problems than anything by tinkering with things like weapon speed and not implimenting bucklers correctly.

[osirisisis]

with greater 2 handed fight and glaceing blow they need to add:

THE LANCE

1d10 periceing damage type crit range 19-20 for w/p, glaceing w/p and better banishing and glaceing banishing

[maddmatt70]

Trying to crunch some numbers, following the format used in several builder posts. Using attacks/min from an old shade post. All weapons are greensteel mineral. WF THF Barb vs Human TWF. Including glancing blows on single target. Put MH/OH attacks at 50/50 if this is wrong please let me know and I'll adjust, wasnt sure, so went off the Max TWF post that had 5 of each in a 10 second span.

Greataxe 135 attacks/min
3d6 +5 (15.5) + 7 (holy) + 3.5 (acid) + 27 (str) + 22 (PA) = 75
*Critical adds (31 base + 11 burst + 11 blast + 54 str + 44 PA +18 seeker) = 244
** add 20 more for 20s
glancing blows 28

135 attacks
5% = 6.75 attacks miss (round up to 7)
20% = 27 crit
**5% = 7 20s for 20 extra
75% = 101 regular hits
glancing blows 40% = 54

101 x 75 + 27 x 244 + 7 x 20 + 54 x 28 = 7575 + 6588 + 140 + 1512 = 15815

TWF Human Barb 170 attacks/min
w/ Khopesh (Main Hand)
1d10+5 (~10.5) + 7 holy + 18 Str + 3.5 ele + 8 Power Attack = 47
*Critical adds (~21 base dmg + 11 +11 +36 Strength + 16 Power Attack + 18 Seeker) = 160
w/ Khopesh (Off Hand)
1d10+5 (~10.5) + + 7 holy + 9 Str + 3.5 ele + 8 Power Attack = 38
*Critical adds (~21 base dmg + 11 +11 +18 Strength + 16 Power Attack + 18 Seeker) = 133

170 attacks
5% = 8.5 miss (9) 4 OH / 5 MH
30% = 51 crit 26 MH / 25 OH
65 % = 110 hit 65 MH / 65 OH
9 20s = 180 blast

26 x 160 + 25 x 133 + 65 x 47 + 65 x 38 + 180 = 4160 + 3325 + 2470 + 3055 + 180 = 13190

15815 vs 13190

Where do you get 22 power attack vs. the 16 for twf - don't compare apples and oranges wf vs. human its got to be one race or the other. There are no bard songs factored in here which is an advantage for twf. 135 for thf vs. 170 is that really accurate that twf only get 35 more attacks per 170 seems incorrect. Glancing blows 40% of the time? I like Shade, but there are some discrepancies...

[Naso24]

"135 for thf vs. 170 is that really accurate that twf only get 35 more attacks per 170 seems incorrect."

It would be off if the test was done unhasted. Any multiplier in attack speed will affect the difference in attacks in a given amount of time.

Other things that may affect your perceptions are tempest and action haste boosts. On my TWF fighter, hasted, with 30% boost on, I can barely keep up counting the number of swings.

[BlackSteel]

Where do you get 22 power attack vs. the 16 for twf - don't compare apples and oranges wf vs. human its got to be one race or the other. There are no bard songs factored in here which is an advantage for twf. 135 for thf vs. 170 is that really accurate that twf only get 35 more attacks per 170 seems incorrect. Glancing blows 40% of the time? I like Shade, but there are some discrepancies...

pulled the human build off the Barb forums, since human seems to be the more common twf barb for the xtra feat. Especially b/c this allows you get grab two improved crits if you'd like, one for epics and one for damage with khopeshes. dwarves second for hp's. And sure I can add some bard songs to that. Just tracked down one of the posts about attacks/min, altho its not the orginal one I was looking for. Changed glancing blows down to 30%

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=132765&highlight=attacks%2Fminute&page=2

Greataxe 135 attacks/min
3d6 +5 (15.5) + 7 (holy) + 3.5 (acid) + 27 (str) + 22 (PA) + 6 Bard= 81
*Critical adds (31 base + 11 burst + 11 blast + 54 str + 44 PA +18 seeker +12) = 262
** add 20 more for 20s
glancing blows 30

135 attacks
5% = 6.75 attacks miss (round up to 7)
20% = 27 crit
**5% = 7 20s for 20 extra
75% = 101 regular hits
glancing blows 30% = 41

101 x 81 + 27 x 262 + 7 x 20 + 41 x 30 = 8181 + 7074 + 140 + 1230 = 16625

TWF Human Barb 170 attacks/min
w/ Khopesh (Main Hand)
1d10+5 (~10.5) + 7 holy + 18 Str + 3.5 ele + 8 Power Attack + 6 bard= 53
*Critical adds (~21 base dmg + 11 +11 +36 Strength + 16 Power Attack + 18 Seeker) = 178
w/ Khopesh (Off Hand)
1d10+5 (~10.5) + + 7 holy + 9 Str + 3.5 ele + 8 Power Attack + 6 bard= 44
*Critical adds (~21 base dmg + 11 +11 +18 Strength + 16 Power Attack + 18 Seeker) = 151

170 attacks
5% = 8.5 miss (9) 4 OH / 5 MH
30% = 51 crit 26 MH / 25 OH
65 % = 110 hit 65 MH / 65 OH
9 20s = 180 blast

26 x 178 + 25 x 151 + 65 x 53 + 65 x 44 + 180 = 4628 + 3775 + 3445 + 2860 + 180 = 14888

16625 vs 14888

[Aranticus]

with greater 2 handed fight and glaceing blow they need to add:

THE LANCE

1d10 periceing damage type crit range 19-20 for w/p, glaceing w/p and better banishing and glaceing banishing

you cannot glance a magical effect....

isnt the lance a single handed weapon too?

[Aranticus]

pulled the human build off the Barb forums, since human seems to be the more common twf barb for the xtra feat. Especially b/c this allows you get grab two improved crits if you'd like, one for epics and one for damage with khopeshes. dwarves second for hp's. And sure I can add some bard songs to that. Just tracked down one of the posts about attacks/min, altho its not the orginal one I was looking for. Changed glancing blows down to 30%

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=132765&highlight=attacks%2Fminute&page=2

Greataxe 135 attacks/min
3d6 +5 (15.5) + 7 (holy) + 3.5 (acid) + 27 (str) + 22 (PA) + 6 Bard= 81
*Critical adds (31 base + 11 burst + 11 blast + 54 str + 44 PA +18 seeker +12) = 262
** add 20 more for 20s
glancing blows 30

135 attacks
5% = 6.75 attacks miss (round up to 7)
20% = 27 crit
**5% = 7 20s for 20 extra
75% = 101 regular hits
glancing blows 30% = 41

101 x 81 + 27 x 262 + 7 x 20 + 41 x 30 = 8181 + 7074 + 140 + 1230 = 16625

TWF Human Barb 170 attacks/min
w/ Khopesh (Main Hand)
1d10+5 (~10.5) + 7 holy + 18 Str + 3.5 ele + 8 Power Attack + 6 bard= 53
*Critical adds (~21 base dmg + 11 +11 +36 Strength + 16 Power Attack + 18 Seeker) = 178
w/ Khopesh (Off Hand)
1d10+5 (~10.5) + + 7 holy + 9 Str + 3.5 ele + 8 Power Attack + 6 bard= 44
*Critical adds (~21 base dmg + 11 +11 +18 Strength + 16 Power Attack + 18 Seeker) = 151

170 attacks
5% = 8.5 miss (9) 4 OH / 5 MH
30% = 51 crit 26 MH / 25 OH
65 % = 110 hit 65 MH / 65 OH
9 20s = 180 blast

26 x 178 + 25 x 151 + 65 x 53 + 65 x 44 + 180 = 4628 + 3775 + 3445 + 2860 + 180 = 14888

16625 vs 14888

how did you arrive at a 22PA?

[Verdant_Force]

Simple. Give me all the formulas you want, but I will just ignore you. I PAY to play this game, therefore I'm gonna make my character however I **** WELL PLEASE. It sickens me when elitists scoff at me for playing my character how I want. Sure, I only play for a few hours per day, and I don't play weekends. Does this mean I should get laughed at for not using 2 WoPs on my barbarian when I enjoy seeing all the little red numbers when I swing my greataxe? Does this mean I should feel bad about having pride in my character and the small amount of roleplaying I put into him when I like to think him a powerful 2handed user? (I'm a huge drizzt fan - so i like to think of my barbarian like Wulfgar with his Aegisfang and also of Berkthgar with Bankenfuere in hand)

I'm sure there are people like me who just enjoy swinging a huge freaking weapon. LEAVE US ALONE. I get along and contribute just fine to any party I'm in. I talk on mic and am VERY cooperative to anyone I play with. I give everyone the highest amount of respect right off the bat and it's there for them to lose.

So to any elitist who has ever scoffed at a player like me, I have one thing to say: I pay to play this game too just like you and I don't appreciate the insults.

[BlackSteel]

how did you arrive at a 22PA?

warforged barbarian gets a racial and class PA line

[BlackSteel]

Simple. Give me all the formulas you want, but I will just ignore you. I PAY to play this game, therefore I'm gonna make my character however I **** WELL PLEASE. It sickens me when elitists scoff at me for playing my character how I want. Sure, I only play for a few hours per day, and I don't play weekends. Does this mean I should get laughed at for not using 2 WoPs on my barbarian when I enjoy seeing all the little red numbers when I swing my greataxe? Does this mean I should feel bad about having pride in my character and the small amount of roleplaying I put into him when I like to think him a powerful 2handed user? (I'm a huge drizzt fan - so i like to think of my barbarian like Wulfgar with his Aegisfang and also of Berkthgar with Bankenfuere in hand)

I'm sure there are people like me who just enjoy swinging a huge freaking weapon. LEAVE US ALONE. I get along and contribute just fine to any party I'm in. I talk on mic and am VERY cooperative to anyone I play with. I give everyone the highest amount of respect right off the bat and it's there for them to lose.

So to any elitist who has ever scoffed at a player like me, I have one thing to say: I pay to play this game too just like you and I don't appreciate the insults.


the only reason i posted numbers verdant is b/c I got tired of being told THF was gimp and so far behind TWF. Not trying to be elitist with it, but simply to put that DPS between the two is very comparable. And yes I did read your post and realize you're a THF as well ^^. Wouldnt even have bothered to crunch anything had this not been the what, 3rd post, this week about THF needing help??

[Verdant_Force]

the only reason i posted numbers verdant is b/c I got tired of being told THF was gimp and so far behind TWF. Not trying to be elitist with it, but simply to put that DPS between the two is very comparable. And yes I did read your post and realize you're a THF as well ^^. Wouldnt even have bothered to crunch anything had this not been the what, 3rd post, this week about THF needing help??

I'm sorry Black I did not mean to single anyone out. That wasn't a response to your post...I make it a point not to single people out because I am not a troll. That was just me venting to anyone who would listen :)

[Kromize]

Your concerned about THF? ); I'm concerned about Sword and Board... Sword and Board get nothing to help them out. The only things it's really useful for is a Tank...

Main thing here tho..I think they need to revamp the enhancements, not the enhancement system, just redo the enhancements...

[Deathseeker]

pulled the human build off the Barb forums, since human seems to be the more common twf barb for the xtra feat. Especially b/c this allows you get grab two improved crits if you'd like, one for epics and one for damage with khopeshes. dwarves second for hp's. And sure I can add some bard songs to that. Just tracked down one of the posts about attacks/min, altho its not the orginal one I was looking for. Changed glancing blows down to 30%

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=132765&highlight=attacks%2Fminute&page=2

Greataxe 135 attacks/min
3d6 +5 (15.5) + 7 (holy) + 3.5 (acid) + 27 (str) + 22 (PA) + 6 Bard= 81
*Critical adds (31 base + 11 burst + 11 blast + 54 str + 44 PA +18 seeker +12) = 262
** add 20 more for 20s
glancing blows 30

135 attacks
5% = 6.75 attacks miss (round up to 7)
20% = 27 crit
**5% = 7 20s for 20 extra
75% = 101 regular hits
glancing blows 30% = 41

101 x 81 + 27 x 262 + 7 x 20 + 41 x 30 = 8181 + 7074 + 140 + 1230 = 16625

TWF Human Barb 170 attacks/min
w/ Khopesh (Main Hand)
1d10+5 (~10.5) + 7 holy + 18 Str + 3.5 ele + 8 Power Attack + 6 bard= 53
*Critical adds (~21 base dmg + 11 +11 +36 Strength + 16 Power Attack + 18 Seeker) = 178
w/ Khopesh (Off Hand)
1d10+5 (~10.5) + + 7 holy + 9 Str + 3.5 ele + 8 Power Attack + 6 bard= 44
*Critical adds (~21 base dmg + 11 +11 +18 Strength + 16 Power Attack + 18 Seeker) = 151

170 attacks
5% = 8.5 miss (9) 4 OH / 5 MH
30% = 51 crit 26 MH / 25 OH
65 % = 110 hit 65 MH / 65 OH
9 20s = 180 blast

26 x 178 + 25 x 151 + 65 x 53 + 65 x 44 + 180 = 4628 + 3775 + 3445 + 2860 + 180 = 14888

16625 vs 14888

This is interesting. Further, I'm curious what the DPS comparison would be with each fighting 4 mobs at one time. Adding all that glancing blow damage for each swing, to each mob, massively raises the damage output. Just like THF can't touch TWF in terms of proc'ing special effects, I don't believe the DPS comparison is even close when taking into account multiple mobs at a time. TWF is a one on one method, TFH truely shines in crowds. I feel the glancing blow cumulative damage is somewhat being minimized in the overall conversation, and it's a very big deal.

Well, until you get to the red named boss...but then overcoming DR comes into play too...oh, my head...

[rawfocat]

This is interesting. Further, I'm curious what the DPS comparison would be with each fighting 4 mobs at one time. Adding all that glancing blow damage for each swing, to each mob, massively raises the damage output.

I think the big issue with the perception that TWF is better DPS than THF is the kill count. If equally geared TWF and a THF are DPSing 4 mobs, the THF will do more damage, but the kill count will be 2- 2 or 3 - 1 for the TWF if they get to the third mob and steal the kill. In a group the THF is helping everyone out, while the TWF is focusing on one mob. This also adds the perception that the THF takes more damage. I think in a team or guild setting they are fine, but in a PUG, kill count mindset, they seem underpowered.

[Kris_P._Letus]

Simple. Give me all the formulas you want, but I will just ignore you. I PAY to play this game, therefore I'm gonna make my character however I **** WELL PLEASE. It sickens me when elitists scoff at me for playing my character how I want. Sure, I only play for a few hours per day, and I don't play weekends. Does this mean I should get laughed at for not using 2 WoPs on my barbarian when I enjoy seeing all the little red numbers when I swing my greataxe? Does this mean I should feel bad about having pride in my character and the small amount of roleplaying I put into him when I like to think him a powerful 2handed user? (I'm a huge drizzt fan - so i like to think of my barbarian like Wulfgar with his Aegisfang and also of Berkthgar with Bankenfuere in hand)

I'm sure there are people like me who just enjoy swinging a huge freaking weapon. LEAVE US ALONE. I get along and contribute just fine to any party I'm in. I talk on mic and am VERY cooperative to anyone I play with. I give everyone the highest amount of respect right off the bat and it's there for them to lose.

So to any elitist who has ever scoffed at a player like me, I have one thing to say: I pay to play this game too just like you and I don't appreciate the insults.


exactly. :) i myself love to see all them red numbers as well. escpecially when the first one registers over 200. ahhhh, i remember the day when i popped my first 200 crit on velah. i was so excited, i had to stop swinging and "wootz" about it over guild chat. :D the party members wondered why the dragon hero had stopped swinging......

[Kris_P._Letus]

I think the big issue with the perception that TWF is better DPS than THF is the kill count. If equally geared TWF and a THF are DPSing 4 mobs, the THF will do more damage, but the kill count will be 2- 2 or 3 - 1 for the TWF if they get to the third mob and steal the kill. In a group the THF is helping everyone out, while the TWF is focusing on one mob. This also adds the perception that the THF takes more damage. I think in a team or guild setting they are fine, but in a PUG, kill count mindset, they seem underpowered.

ill use cabal as my story setting here. we were running cabal lookin for relics so that i could get into tor....needed one last spot to fill, so we put up the lfm, and a 2Wf joined the group. i asked him if he was illuminatis build, and he confirmed, only difference being that he was a wf instead of human, (smart man ;) ). i thought for sure that he was going to outkill me by a few, but through the whole quest, i was ahead of him in kills. he didnt beat me till towards the last part of the quest. ending with 1 kill more then me.

but as i stated earlier....who cares about kill count? do you get a special ribbon if you lead in kills? all of mine must have been lost in the mail....do you get to brag about it? to who? "to guild: HEY!!!! I LED THE KILL COUNT IN XXXX ON ELITE!!!" "guild says: yay. that must have been some uber killing there. wtg."

is just my opinion, but i dont think they should keep track of kill counts. if there were no kill counts, would there still be this whole "my build is uber'er then your gimp build"? im not knocking all of you uber build'ists out there, im just saying in general, peopel worry to much about they're kill counts instead of "i helped kill this guy, taking him down to 10 percent health for someone to take the final killing blow. now its time to move on to the next mob to take down so we can finish this quest faster".

[bandyman1]

"135 for thf vs. 170 is that really accurate that twf only get 35 more attacks per 170 seems incorrect."

It would be off if the test was done unhasted. Any multiplier in attack speed will affect the difference in attacks in a given amount of time.

Other things that may affect your perceptions are tempest and action haste boosts. On my TWF fighter, hasted, with 30% boost on, I can barely keep up counting the number of swings.

Hehehehe, you should see mine. Granted I only have Fighter's haste boost III, but I also have Tempest :P.

[BlackSteel]

those numbers are hasted, but no boosts or tempest, boosts would be a lil too much work to add in considering I was looking at damage over a minute, and the boost only lasts for a 3rd of that. (but you could hit it twice) and while it wouldnt add as much damage, every barb gets a pure damage boost.

and true while more mobs would add more damage with glancing blows, its nothing you can always count on. If you're swinging you'll have atleast 1 mob (or a trigger finger). They add up, but it would be unfair to put in more than one, when you may or may not have.

135 swings for a THF is also tough to get, considering it requires alot of twitch skill, and everyone is bound to mess up occassionally. But TWF also doesnt have the reach of a 2 hander, and will lose out when chasing and approaching mobs, so that kinda offsets the messed up chains.

An additional 10% increase for the twf (tempest) would put the numbers pretty much even. Thats granted that the tempest is doing the same base damage as a barb. Which I would presume to be entirely possible.

[maddmatt70]

warforged barbarian gets a racial and class PA line

Like I said don't compare apples to oranges. wf and humans are different races; hence have different advantages and disadvantages. You should compare twf and thf for the same race. Secondly I dispute that wf are the most popular thf and that humans are the most popular twf it is dwarves by a landslide. Start this off by comparing thf and twf dwarves. I still don't buy that twf get only 35 more attacks every 170. That would mean that twf only get 25% more attacks which is low. Good point about haste helping twf out more by one of the posters. You will find that all buffs help twf out more. This whole comparison should be waited toward raids since that really is the end content right now and on raids there is nearly always max buffs (haste, bard songs, even prayer).

[Aranticus]

warforged barbarian gets a racial and class PA line

the TWF is a human, the THF is a wf. then there is NO basis for comparison. you are comparing 2 different races with different damage potentials. change the wf to a human or the human to the WF and you'll see that the numbers are actually closer

[BlackSteel]

Like I said don't compare apples to oranges. wf and humans are different races; hence have different advantages and disadvantages. You should compare twf and thf for the same race. Secondly I dispute that wf are the most popular thf and that humans are the most popular twf it is dwarves by a landslide. Start this off by comparing thf and twf dwarves. I still don't buy that twf get only 35 more attacks every 170. That would mean that twf only get 25% more attacks which is low. Good point about haste helping twf out more by one of the posters. You will find that all buffs help twf out more. This whole comparison should be waited toward raids since that really is the end content right now and on raids there is nearly always max buffs (haste, bard songs, even prayer).

those numbers were with haste, and the 2nd post includes bard songs. Never said anything about wf being the most popular THF race, simply chose them b/c they get the best enhancements for damage for the fighting style (plus personal preference). Sure I'll give you that dwarves are the most popular race, but the khopesh beats the dwarven axe, and most are going to be using khopeshs or picks (not all, just most). Sure I couldve chosen to keep as many things the same as possible, but frankly you cant use the same weapons with both styles, buffs are going to effect them at a different ratio, they're going to require different support feats (OTWF and Khopesh, or Weapon Focus) and I had more interest in putting up the numbers for the class/race I play over something I could care less about. If you have a twf wf that dual weilds khopeshs with the full PA line, I'll crunch that. But I figured that would be a bit of a rarity, considering I have enough fun trying to hit some mobs at -11/-15 I wouldnt want to stack on two more for size penalty.

And taking max buffs would be a little silly, considering that quite a few of those are short lived and cant be expected to be maintained or acquired in the first place. That cleric isn't going to remember to keep prayer up, aside from portal beating, sneak attack items are going to work sporadically. The choker is as much a help as a detriment; a THF would benefit more from the litany trinket than a blood stone (but whose going to acquire that? ) Damage boost, haste boost, sprint boost. Bard songs and haste are the best buffs in the game, and to a reasonable extent, the only ones you should expect to see on all the time in end game.

It made more sense to take the class/race combo that I felt did the most with the fighting style and compare it what I also felt was the best for the opposing style. The max dps twf barb thread is long enough and has enough support and feedback that I felt it was a valid comparison. I'm not saying that THF is the better fighting style; all I've tried to do was point out that the fighting line is NOT in need of help. A THF is certainly able to keep pace agaisnt a twf. I'm not trying to convince anyone that they should delete and reroll, simply would like to change a few perceptions of THF as being gimp fighters. They do a butt load of damage, and because of such they don't need to con kill, dont need to banish or smite, and dont need to vorpal except in a few small occassions.

[KiwiJoe]

This is interesting. Further, I'm curious what the DPS comparison would be with each fighting 4 mobs at one time. Adding all that glancing blow damage for each swing, to each mob, massively raises the damage output. Just like THF can't touch TWF in terms of proc'ing special effects, I don't believe the DPS comparison is even close when taking into account multiple mobs at a time. TWF is a one on one method, TFH truely shines in crowds. I feel the glancing blow cumulative damage is somewhat being minimized in the overall conversation, and it's a very big deal.

Well, until you get to the red named boss...but then overcoming DR comes into play too...oh, my head...

Agian... The point of the thread is not to compare the DPS output of 2handed fighting VS TWF. The point is at end game its a much better option to vorpal or W/P mobs due to their high hitpoints, DR, etc. Thus TWF have a large edge due to more attacks per turn and the fact that you can't get a 2handed W/P weapon.

SO... all the glancing blows in the world are still going to be meaningless as most of those 'glanced' mobs will just end up being vorp'd/wounded to death anyways.

[BlackSteel]

Agian... The point of the thread is not to compare the DPS output of 2handed fighting VS TWF. The point is at end game its a much better option to vorpal or W/P mobs due to their high hitpoints, DR, etc. Thus TWF have a large edge due to more attacks per turn and the fact that you can't get a 2handed W/P weapon.

SO... all the glancing blows in the world are still going to be meaningless as most of those 'glanced' mobs will just end up being vorp'd/wounded to death anyways.

Those high hit points only show up on a handful of mobs, if you're vorp'ing or stat killing anything in hound besides the protectors you're wasting time. Same the trogs in the shroud, only part 2 and start of part 4 does DPS take a back seat b/c someone may instakill it out from under you, and even then, a vorpal greataxe is not that far behind twf, its not 2x the number of attacks, and a THF can still expect to make a meaningful contribution during those parts using that strat. In VoD the devils are the only thing that you can do this too, and they're nothing but an annoyance when compared to the true threats of the quest ( how you handle the orthons and the explodey bats). End game is not all stat damaging and instakill, the trash mobs are still trash (which can be killed in 2-5 hits), the bosses still have their immunities (DPS only), the only thing thats different is that theres those mobs that fall in the middle, the elite devils and protectors. And more people own vorpals than w/p, atleast the people I know, so the most common party strategy is for everyone to go vorpal in these scenarios.

THF doesnt need a w/p option, simply put, because theres no need to use one with the fighting style. You can do too much physical damage, so don't need to resort to hurting their con. A W/P is what, an average of 2 con a hit? And these mobs have somewhere in the mid20s for that stat, so lets say 11 attacks. In 11 attacks, a THF can do close to 1200 damage WITHOUT criticals. Aside from the elite mobs in the end raids, most mobs are going to have half that.

[maddmatt70]

Gthf adds a glancing attack to the 4th attack option. Pure base attack adds 5 attacks. With Gtwf there is 3 off hand attacks.
Twf = 8 attacks
Thf = 6 attacks

Instead of a 25% increase in attacks that you reflect in your numbers there is a 33% increase in attacks with twf over thf. Clearly this is an advantage for vorpaling and wounding. In regard to red names which is where I argue is the other area twf have an advantage because almost always there is only a single target that doesn't move that much.

[Aranticus]

Those high hit points only show up on a handful of mobs, if you're vorp'ing or stat killing anything in hound besides the protectors you're wasting time. Same the trogs in the shroud, only part 2 and start of part 4 does DPS take a back seat b/c someone may instakill it out from under you, and even then, a vorpal greataxe is not that far behind twf, its not 2x the number of attacks, and a THF can still expect to make a meaningful contribution during those parts using that strat. In VoD the devils are the only thing that you can do this too, and they're nothing but an annoyance when compared to the true threats of the quest ( how you handle the orthons and the explodey bats). End game is not all stat damaging and instakill, the trash mobs are still trash (which can be killed in 2-5 hits), the bosses still have their immunities (DPS only), the only thing thats different is that theres those mobs that fall in the middle, the elite devils and protectors. And more people own vorpals than w/p, atleast the people I know, so the most common party strategy is for everyone to go vorpal in these scenarios.

THF doesnt need a w/p option, simply put, because theres no need to use one with the fighting style. You can do too much physical damage, so don't need to resort to hurting their con. A W/P is what, an average of 2 con a hit? And these mobs have somewhere in the mid20s for that stat, so lets say 11 attacks. In 11 attacks, a THF can do close to 1200 damage WITHOUT criticals. Aside from the elite mobs in the end raids, most mobs are going to have half that.

you mean L16s actually still run ww, stk? :rolleyes:

[BlackSteel]

you mean L16s actually still run ww, stk? :rolleyes:

nope, but you can 2 shot a trog in the shroud if you crit. same with drones in Hound. Almost everything in the vale quests can be shot down in less than one attack round.

what 25% and 33% are u speaking of? number of attacks doesnt mean squat unless you put them in context of how long they take.

and in regards to red names and glancing blows, you still get glancing blow damage on your main target, and thats the only GB damage i've included. Additionally glancing blow damage on a single target is still less than the damage difference between the two styles.

[Aranticus]

nope, but you can 2 shot a trog in the shroud if you crit. same with drones in Hound. Almost everything in the vale quests can be shot down in less than one attack round.

what 25% and 33% are u speaking of? number of attacks doesnt mean squat unless you put them in context of how long they take.

and in regards to red names and glancing blows, you still get glancing blow damage on your main target, and thats the only GB damage i've included. Additionally glancing blow damage on a single target is still less than the damage difference between the two styles.

a TWF will take the trog down in the same amount of time, if not faster. seriously THF is becoming pale in comparison due to the buffs we get. a player dun even need OHTW feat to reduce his penalties. 50-60 attack bonus is not uncommon these days and the ac of the mobs are not as high.

if you think you can dps faster than a twf can dps or even vorp, banish, smite, disrupt, wop, your wrong

btw for twf, they get 11 attacks in an attack chain. SnB and thf gets 6

[BlackSteel]

a TWF will take the trog down in the same amount of time, if not faster. seriously THF is becoming pale in comparison due to the buffs we get. a player dun even need OHTW feat to reduce his penalties. 50-60 attack bonus is not uncommon these days and the ac of the mobs are not as high.

if you think you can dps faster than a twf can dps or even vorp, banish, smite, disrupt, wop, your wrong

btw for twf, they get 11 attacks in an attack chain. SnB and thf gets 6

like i said, attack chain doesnt mean squat considering you can break it. In the amount of time you'll do ur 11 attacks thru ur whole chain, I can reset mine, and have 8 - 9 attacks and not 6. And that 50 - 60 attack bonus on a twf is a 70-90 on a THF + 35 glancing blow damage (goes up with increase in base). And where is your evidence for the rest of your claims? Not saying THF beats TWF, I'm saying they're close. Show me anything that proves that twf makes thf PALE IN COMPARISON. Go grab a stop watch and count your swings over a minute, then have a THF that knows what they're doing and count his, my guess is that you come close to several other posters that have tried this.

[Aranticus]

like i said, attack chain doesnt mean squat considering you can break it. In the amount of time you'll do ur 11 attacks thru ur whole chain, I can reset mine, and have 8 - 9 attacks and not 6.

how many people actually reset their chains in actual conditions? fighting harry, people are always standing in the same position which means the attack chain is not broken. by comparing them in a static and not dynamic way, the argument you make is flawed

And that 50 - 60 attack bonus on a twf is a 70-90 on a THF + 35 glancing blow damage (goes up with increase in base).

you confused attack bonus with damage bonus

And where is your evidence for the rest of your claims? Not saying THF beats TWF, I'm saying they're close. Show me anything that proves that twf makes thf PALE IN COMPARISON.

i dun have to provide evidence as they are all here. you just choose to ignore it. using power5 and wops, twf have the upper hand and if dps wise they are the same, then twf > thf

Go grab a stop watch and count your swings over a minute, then have a THF that knows what they're doing and count his, my guess is that you come close to several other posters that have tried this.

again you speak in controlled situations. i have both twf and thf toons and the difference is huge. dps wise similar. insta kill effects or wop, twf > thf. ac, twf > thf. the best advantage a thf has over the twf is hp

[BlackSteel]

again you speak in controlled situations. i have both twf and thf toons and the difference is huge. dps wise similar. insta kill effects or wop, twf > thf. ac, twf > thf. the best advantage a thf has over the twf is hp

what evidence do u speak of? all you've said so far has been

thf 6 attacks
twf 11 attacks

[maddmatt70]

like i said, attack chain doesnt mean squat considering you can break it. In the amount of time you'll do ur 11 attacks thru ur whole chain, I can reset mine, and have 8 - 9 attacks and not 6. And that 50 - 60 attack bonus on a twf is a 70-90 on a THF + 35 glancing blow damage (goes up with increase in base). And where is your evidence for the rest of your claims? Not saying THF beats TWF, I'm saying they're close. Show me anything that proves that twf makes thf PALE IN COMPARISON. Go grab a stop watch and count your swings over a minute, then have a THF that knows what they're doing and count his, my guess is that you come close to several other posters that have tried this.

Cheating attack sequences, etc. the numbers that you lay out are weak and unscientific. How much does cheating an attack sequence gain you in regards to damage, how proficient are the best at it or getting the optimum results. I think the most reliable course here would be empirical evidence - twf vs. thf via observation and through some form of benchmarks. The shroud round 4 is a good measurement. Empirically twf ranger and barb parties appear to do the most damage in the shroud round 4 that is all I have to offer on the subject. Red names do appear to suffer at the hands of twf....

[BlackSteel]

Cheating attack sequences, etc. the numbers that you lay out are weak and unscientific. How much does cheating an attack sequence gain you in regards to damage, how proficient are the best at it or getting the optimum results. I think the most reliable course here would be empirical evidence - twf vs. thf via observation and through some form of benchmarks. The shroud round 4 is a good measurement. Empirically twf ranger and barb parties appear to do the most damage in the shroud round 4 that is all I have to offer on the subject. Red names do appear to suffer at the hands of twf....

and how are you going to measure part 4 damage when theres 12 people all capable of influencing the time it takes to bring him down. If you're suggesting all twf compared to all thf runs, GL finding that many THF's now with so many people share the same attitude. Much less a number of good players behind the builds. Want to let someone solo a round? You could break out a ruler and measure his hp bar on the screen. I've been shown or told nothing so far to prove that twf wipes the floor with thf other than it gets more attacks. Tend to forget that THF does more damage on each of its attacks.

[maddmatt70]

and how are you going to measure part 4 damage when theres 12 people all capable of influencing the time it takes to bring him down. If you're suggesting all twf compared to all thf runs, GL finding that many THF's now with so many people share the same attitude. Much less a number of good players behind the builds. Want to let someone solo a round? You could break out a ruler and measure his hp bar on the screen. I've been shown or told nothing so far to prove that twf wipes the floor with thf other than it gets more attacks. Tend to forget that THF does more damage on each of its attacks.

Simple you dont have 12 people beat on the pit fiend just one twf and then you run it again with one thf for 20 rounds 10 different times or whatever the sample size should be. You kill the gnolls when they first spawn with the rest of the party member so they don't have a chance to heal the pit fiend at all and you fight through the blades every time. You use the same race and you have mineral 2 Weapons. You catalogue either how far you got the pit fiends health down or how many rounds it takes to kill the pit fiend...

[KiwiJoe]

I think you can crunch numbers all day and all night. The fact is I see more and more people either rolling TWF'ing toons or converting their previous great axe weilding dwarfs into dual dwarf axe wielders (if they have the DEX).

Actions speak louder than words...

[BlackSteel]

Simple you dont have 12 people beat on the pit fiend just one twf and then you run it again with one thf for 20 rounds 10 different times or whatever the sample size should be. You kill the gnolls when they first spawn with the rest of the party member so they don't have a chance to heal the pit fiend at all and you fight through the blades every time. You use the same race and you have mineral 2 Weapons. You catalogue either how far you got the pit fiends health down or how many rounds it takes to kill the pit fiend...

that sounds like a royal pita to be honest, altho 1-3 runs should give u a good idea of how far he got taken down, measuring time is iffy b/c the time between rounds is dependent on how fast the devils get killed. I'm not following you on the same race thing. If the person was halfling would you tell them not to use halfling guile? Can the human not use his extra stat points? You kept crying apples and oranges earlier, but I've yet to see anyone say that when they argued rogue vs ranger vs barb dps for twf. Why is it different for THF? Theres a post several pages long about rogues having the max DPS, even at 75% sneaks, 50% sneaks they strike even. And noone cried that they were two different animals. Simply that maintaining sneaks at such high damage would be difficult and impractical. Was giving an example of build vs build, you can look at other posts to see how different weapons and posts hold up to each other. The max dps post in the barb forums has the percent difference between a dwarf with DA vs a human khopesh, etc.

[BlackSteel]

I think you can crunch numbers all day and all night. The fact is I see more and more people either rolling TWF'ing toons or converting their previous great axe weilding dwarfs into dual dwarf axe wielders (if they have the DEX).

Actions speak louder than words...

if everyone started wearing pink bathrobes in game would u do so too?

[Aranticus]

what evidence do u speak of? all you've said so far has been

thf 6 attacks
twf 11 attacks

here are selected posts in this thread. you would have seen them if you read through the whole discussion


Slower, the sheer amount of weapon effects on greensteels make 2wf dps much better now. Now add the fact you can add stats and AC to it as well...yup, pretty gimp atm.


A player of equal skill and equal equipment level will do significantly more DPS going TWF than going THF. And if he should be aiming for effects to land he also will be extremely better going TWF again.

So for dedicated combat builds there is no reason to go THF. There may be other reasons to go THF, like style, roleplaying or some hybrid charcters who dont have the points to put into DEX, but from a combat effeciency standpoint THF is inferior.


I vorpal the teleporting devils in Vod. The other method that works there is wounding. Advantage twf over thf in both those cases.

Wounders are better in the hound then vorpals on the flensers, even if you are a slashing specced twf. Wounders also crush beholders and mind flayers..

Who cares about what weapon you use in the subterrane although I would recommend not using dps on orthons but that is about it...

Twf does more damage against red names. The combination of bard songs and two greeensteel weapons is obscene.

One big advantage that thf has over twf is that non ranger twf builds have to worry about dex whereas thf don't. General thf have higher con scores because they don't have to worry about dex and thus more hit points which is a nice defensive advantage.

[Aranticus]

and how are you going to measure part 4 damage when theres 12 people all capable of influencing the time it takes to bring him down. If you're suggesting all twf compared to all thf runs, GL finding that many THF's now with so many people share the same attitude. Much less a number of good players behind the builds. Want to let someone solo a round? You could break out a ruler and measure his hp bar on the screen. I've been shown or told nothing so far to prove that twf wipes the floor with thf other than it gets more attacks. Tend to forget that THF does more damage on each of its attacks.

best way is to go into vod, get the clerics to heal the twf and the thf and see who takes down a red named orthon 1st. then switch to vorpals and see who takes down a devil 1st

[BlackSteel]

here are selected posts in this thread. you would have seen them if you read through the whole discussion

um. care to show me how more weapon effects equals more damage? Just b/c your main hand has flaming burst, doesnt mean your offhand gets it too, its still just number of attacks. Unless a 1 handed weapon can two prefixes and two suffixes, I'm just not following you. Seeker applies to both, thats about it. So you get 3d6 in specials on every hit, well so does the THF, you happen to get about 20-25% more attacks, that 20% more along with 3d6 is hard pressed to make up for the 30-40 damage it loses on every hit for the THF.

Aside from Madds post about how he felt wounders were better in Hound than vorpals, all you've done is rehash the same old twf gets more attacks than thf. SHOW ME how more attacks equals more damage. Saying it doesnt make it true. Unless maybe if you click your heels together twice. But they've yet to add the red slippers of wishing into the game.

[BlackSteel]

best way is to go into vod, get the clerics to heal the twf and the thf and see who takes down a red named orthon 1st. then switch to vorpals and see who takes down a devil 1st

orthon I can see, thats very valid, but the first to vorpal? thats just funny

[maddmatt70]

that sounds like a royal pita to be honest, altho 1-3 runs should give u a good idea of how far he got taken down, measuring time is iffy b/c the time between rounds is dependent on how fast the devils get killed. I'm not following you on the same race thing. If the person was halfling would you tell them not to use halfling guile? Can the human not use his extra stat points? You kept crying apples and oranges earlier, but I've yet to see anyone say that when they argued rogue vs ranger vs barb dps for twf. Why is it different for THF? Theres a post several pages long about rogues having the max DPS, even at 75% sneaks, 50% sneaks they strike even. And noone cried that they were two different animals. Simply that maintaining sneaks at such high damage would be difficult and impractical. Was giving an example of build vs build, you can look at other posts to see how different weapons and posts hold up to each other. The max dps post in the barb forums has the percent difference between a dwarf with DA vs a human khopesh, etc.

That is poor math. We are comparing thf vs. twf not if warforged do more dps the humans and the same goes for classes - it must be the same. Statisticians would seek to isolate this result as much as it can be.

The devils are not an issue if you have enough party members to kill them and regardless it easy to isolate this to twf or thf one on pit fiend fight. The pit fiend does not regenerate hit points other then with a gnoll's healing and the twf or thf melee combatant can be on him when he flys down. damage can be reflected both in terms of the pit fiend's health loss per round and in total rounds. I don't think 1 run is sufficient evidence, but rather several runs is more sufficient. If enough people are interested and willing to invest the time it would be relatively easy to set this up. When faced with an empirically satisfactory measure you run for the hills so why I am not surprised.

[Aranticus]

that sounds like a royal pita to be honest, altho 1-3 runs should give u a good idea of how far he got taken down, measuring time is iffy b/c the time between rounds is dependent on how fast the devils get killed. I'm not following you on the same race thing. If the person was halfling would you tell them not to use halfling guile? Can the human not use his extra stat points? You kept crying apples and oranges earlier, but I've yet to see anyone say that when they argued rogue vs ranger vs barb dps for twf. Why is it different for THF? Theres a post several pages long about rogues having the max DPS, even at 75% sneaks, 50% sneaks they strike even. And noone cried that they were two different animals. Simply that maintaining sneaks at such high damage would be difficult and impractical. Was giving an example of build vs build, you can look at other posts to see how different weapons and posts hold up to each other. The max dps post in the barb forums has the percent difference between a dwarf with DA vs a human khopesh, etc.

you still dun see the flaw in your calculations. the thing we are discussing here is TWF vs THF. in order to find out which is better, everything has to be set to be a constant. this is different from the other discussions as they are only interested in finding out which combination produces the best results. we are dealing with different things here

[Aranticus]

if everyone started wearing pink bathrobes in game would u do so too?

if the pink bathrobes gave me +100 ac and +1000 damage, i would! :eek:

and again you failed to see the point. what kiwijoe was saying is that people deem twf to be more efficient that thf which is why they switch becoz ultimately, most players want the nastiest build they can lay their hands on.

if your pink bathrobe does not serve a purpose, no one would wear it! but if they were uber leet bathrobes, everyone will rush for one!

[Aranticus]

um. care to show me how more weapon effects equals more damage? Just b/c your main hand has flaming burst, doesnt mean your offhand gets it too, its still just number of attacks. Unless a 1 handed weapon can two prefixes and two suffixes, I'm just not following you. Seeker applies to both, thats about it. So you get 3d6 in specials on every hit, well so does the THF, you happen to get about 20-25% more attacks, that 20% more along with 3d6 is hard pressed to make up for the 30-40 damage it loses on every hit for the THF.

Aside from Madds post about how he felt wounders were better in Hound than vorpals, all you've done is rehash the same old twf gets more attacks than thf. SHOW ME how more attacks equals more damage. Saying it doesnt make it true. Unless maybe if you click your heels together twice. But they've yet to add the red slippers of wishing into the game.

since you like number crunching, go calculate how much additional damage a thf player will do with a pos pos pos greataxe and how much a twf will do with TWO pos pos pos khopeshes. it doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure how more attacks = more damage

ps: my SnB fighter has a 40+ damage bonus, my THF barb is sitting at 50+, the damage difference isnt as wide as you claim to be

[Aranticus]

orthon I can see, thats very valid, but the first to vorpal? thats just funny

the comparison of thf vs twf doesnt just include dps. one has to take into consideration of the other fighting modes. if vorpal is not valid, then switch to a wop! statistically, twf have more attacks and are thus likely to land a vorpal faster

[BlackSteel]

you still dun see the flaw in your calculations. the thing we are discussing here is TWF vs THF. in order to find out which is better, everything has to be set to be a constant. this is different from the other discussions as they are only interested in finding out which combination produces the best results. we are dealing with different things here

First of all, I took what was labeled the max dps twf barb build, and he's received alot props for his post, so why would I take the best of twf and purposely match it up agaisnt the not so best of THF? Because if you didnt go wf, you're not going to have that max damage potential on a 2 hander. Just like going twf with a wf barb would hurt as well unless you took the feats to compensate or didnt take all of your enhancements.

Second, I only posted numbers in response to a THF = doomed post. In order to show that its not at all. I could really care less which one really ends up on top, as I firmly believe they're very similar in actual DPS, I'm not really going to lose sleep over a few percent. What does irk me is this crazy notion that thf is that subpar in comparison. I've yet to run anything in game to make me believe this. Yes I've seen W/P in action, and wasn't that impressed, didnt seem that much more useful unless it was on elder earth eles.

[Aranticus]

First of all, I took what was labeled the max dps twf barb build, and he's received alot props for his post, so why would I take the best of twf and purposely match it up agaisnt the not so best of THF? Because if you didnt go wf, you're not going to have that max damage potential on a 2 hander. Just like going twf with a wf barb would hurt as well unless you took the feats to compensate or didnt take all of your enhancements.

Second, I only posted numbers in response to a THF = doomed post. In order to show that its not at all. I could really care less which one really ends up on top, as I firmly believe they're very similar in actual DPS, I'm not really going to lose sleep over a few percent. What does irk me is this crazy notion that thf is that subpar in comparison. I've yet to run anything in game to make me believe this. Yes I've seen W/P in action, and wasn't that impressed, didnt seem that much more useful unless it was on elder earth eles.

read this again


I think inflated mob hitpoints have savagely hurt 2handed fighting builds. Whilst a raging Barb. is still VERY useful for wacking Bosses, in general 2handed builds are massivly inferior to TWF's dual vorpalling/wounding/wp everything to death before you can DPS it with a great axe/sword.

Between tempest rangers and fingering sorcs. there is little point in swinging a dps 2hander least it be insta killed at 1/4 health :(

Time for a new 2handed fighting feat to even up the playing field I reckon. :D

you are out of point

[BlackSteel]

the comparison of thf vs twf doesnt just include dps. one has to take into consideration of the other fighting modes. if vorpal is not valid, then switch to a wop! statistically, twf have more attacks and are thus likely to land a vorpal faster

no, but playing the first to land a vorpal isnt valid at all. vorpals over a very very very large number of mobs would be, but that doesnt happen. So you killed 5 devils in part 2 shroud, and I killed 4. Congratulations. B/c thats what your extra attacks amount to.

[Aranticus]

no, but playing the first to land a vorpal isnt valid at all. vorpals over a very very very large number of mobs would be, but that doesnt happen. So you killed 5 devils in part 2 shroud, and I killed 4. Congratulations. B/c thats what your extra attacks amount to.

that why i suggested going wop. with wop or wounding even, they are less statistically random

[BlackSteel]

you are out of point[/QUOTE]

and what I tried to tell the original poster is that for the fighting style, he's not that far behind when using vorpals. Most scenarios that warrant w/p can also be vorpaled. Nor is banishing needed, and actually not that useful on elite content. Major point being that the scenarios that warrant nondps strategies are few and rare in comparison to those that dont. Even if they are all packed in the endgame raids it doesnt really matter, b/c in all those raids theres plenty more to do than just run around trying to gib mobs.

Would you tell a pure rogue or barb twf he's gimp for trying to vorpal mobs because he doesnt have tempest? Cause it sure sounds like it.

[Aranticus]

you are out of point

and what I tried to tell the original poster is that for the fighting style, he's not that far behind when using vorpals. Most scenarios that warrant w/p can also be vorpaled. Nor is banishing needed, and actually not that useful on elite content. Major point being that the scenarios that warrant nondps strategies are few and rare in comparison to those that dont. Even if they are all packed in the endgame raids it doesnt really matter, b/c in all those raids theres plenty more to do than just run around trying to gib mobs.

Would you tell a pure rogue or barb twf he's gimp for trying to vorpal mobs because he doesnt have tempest? Cause it sure sounds like it.[/QUOTE]

twf will get alot more kills than thf. this is statiscally proven.

as to class comparison, that is another issue all together. each class has their benefits which is needed to be taken into account before suggesting tempest is the best. build me a tempest battle cleric then :rolleyes:

[BlackSteel]

twf will get alot more kills than thf. this is statiscally proven.:

when both are using nondps strategies, agreed. But theres not enough content in the game that requires this to be of consequence. Only a fool would try to vorpal an entire quest and expect to lead the kills, and w/p rapiers are not common fair, nor are they that much faster. Grabbing two more heads in part 2 shroud or VoD doesnt really matter, someone was bound to be the lucky 20 eventually, being 20% more likely to beat a SINGLE other person to the instakill is kinda moot. Cause theres normally what 7 or 8 people trying to do the same thing, my 130/1000 attacks is very near the same percent as your 170/1000 for party attempts in a minute. Anyone with a decent tohit can contribute decently when using nondps methods, they dont have to be TWF.

[Raithe]

Anyone with a decent tohit can contribute decently when using nondps methods, they dont have to be TWF.

A rather humorous remark for this thread. Wounding of Puncturing combined with Tempest/Crit Rage II is about 2.2 times the stat damage of its nearest non-WoP rival. Guess what? Weapon set DPS values range from about 70 hp/sec (1-handed or ranged ranger level 16) to about 160 hp/sec (lvl 16 pick/khopesh gtwf). That's a "huge" difference factor of 2.3.

I've been going over some numbers using jjflanigan's Weapon Comparison Tool (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=87716) just because poorly designed MMOs are fascinating, and it's pretty easy to spot where there is a huge problem.

It's with Rangers.

The problem is threefold:

1) Ram's Might. Let's give strength-based rangers a spell that is "Greater Weapon Specialization" for all weapon types combined with "Weapon Focus" for all weapon types? Who came up with that?
2) Tempest. 10% DPS boost that stacks with everything and works on all types of weapon damage.
3) Favored Enemy. A khopesh (or elf w/ rapier) wielding ranger can break 200 hp/sec against favored enemies, which is currently just about everything 16th level or higher.

The really sad part of this DPS nightmare is that it inspired so much bad strategy and bad gameplay. Zerg and slash mindsets, no damage mitigation through ranged attack, and large damage bursts causing synchronous killing to go awry.

[BlackSteel]

A rather humorous remark for this thread. Wounding of Puncturing combined with Tempest/Crit Rage II is about 2.2 times the stat damage of its nearest non-WoP rival. Guess what? Weapon set DPS values range from about 70 hp/sec (1-handed or ranged ranger level 16) to about 160 hp/sec (lvl 16 pick/khopesh gtwf). That's a "huge" difference factor of 2.3.


that was mostly in regards to epics, as anyone can roll a 20, or crit range with smite/banisher.

and madd, I dont think the pit fiend set up is a very good measurement, the orthon suggestion in VoD seems a much better evaluation, as you could actually race for orthon death instead of percieved movement on a health bar.

[BlackSteel]

tested attacks per minute for THF, got 65 during the duration of one haste potion, messed up and got the slow animation once. So that pretty much confirms the 130 a minute for mauls/greataxes over a minute. If someone would like to count their TWF I'll readjust if needed.

[GlassCannon]

Idiotic weaponry aside, Tempest Rangers and Two Handed Fighting Barbarians have close to the same DPS, provided both of them completely ignore Armor Class and go straight DPS. Barbarians have a better damage average due to Criticals, while Tempests make up for it in sheer number of attacks. When Displacement is added to the mix, Barbarian tends to come out in the lead, but only about 15% of the time, and by a small margin. Fighters spec'd for THF and Speed Boost tend to utterly trash the kill count in comparison(more damage and to-hit feats), leaving the TWF build in the distance.


Stop talking about weapons that are hard to get. Stop mentioning Shroud items. Stop the bulls*it and compare them with standard +5 weapons.
TWF builds tend to spend more feats to get near the same result a THF build does.

As for actual numbers, I and a great many more just don't care enough. I'll let you spend your precious time crunching, because I have a game to play and a life to get back to once I have had my fill of DDO. I don't turn this game into work, but I don't speak for those that frequent the forums and calculate the absolute maximum number of times you can tumble off an edge in an hour by doing just that, making a video of it, and studying the video.

[Cold_Stele]

Sorry BlackSteel but I totally fail to understand your argument supporting THF.


Greatsword speeds are pretty painful, but hasted mauls and greataxes are not so bad.


I would love to use a falchion; it would actually be my weapon of choice if it wasnt so painfully slow. More so than the greatsword.

You say THF=TWF and yet you won't even touch 3/5 of the THF weapons (GreatSword, GreatClub, Falchion) because of how bad they are...

I'm still completely failing to see how you can't see there's a problem. You wouldn't happen to have WF PA III would you? That may start to explain why you personally are putting down mobs as quick as the DPS/stat damaging TWF, but that doesn't help all the other THF guys.

[maddmatt70]

Stop talking about weapons that are hard to get. Stop mentioning Shroud items. Stop the bulls*it and compare them with standard +5 weapons.
TWF builds tend to spend more feats to get near the same result a THF build does.



I totally disagree with the statement as it doesn't look at in-game realities. The fact is nobody runs around with a +5 weapon at end game whether you are a casual gamer, power gamer, what have you. Since I can understand where Blacksteel is coming from more of power gamer perspective as am I at this point after 6+ months of the shroud being out someone who fits this mold will have a tier 2 shroud thf or 2 tier shroud twf. My battle bard which might be top melee character has two tier 2 shroud weapons and blacksteel has a mineral 2 greataxe and alot of players have similiar gear on their top 1-2 melee.

[Aranticus]

TWF builds tend to spend more feats to get near the same result a THF build does.

how?

[Aeneas]

With regards to the pink bathrobe comment,

I know a whole lot of people who trade half their raid gear for a certain blue and white one.

[The_Phenx]

I feel like im fighting in jello, even with crits in the 500's, etc.

How in gods name are you critting in the 500's?

I know you like halflings too... do you give them catnip before battle?

[Tanka]

how?
Because you don't need to take any of the THF Feats to wield a weapon two handed without any penalty. All the THF line does is grant you glancing blows during various swings and increase their to-hit.

[BlackSteel]

How in gods name are you critting in the 500's?

I know you like halflings too... do you give them catnip before battle?

sounds like a pally smite to me.

[BlackSteel]

Sorry BlackSteel but I totally fail to understand your argument supporting THF.





You say THF=TWF and yet you won't even touch 3/5 of the THF weapons (GreatSword, GreatClub, Falchion) because of how bad they are...

I'm still completely failing to see how you can't see there's a problem. You wouldn't happen to have WF PA III would you? That may start to explain why you personally are putting down mobs as quick as the DPS/stat damaging TWF, but that doesn't help all the other THF guys.


I wont touch the other 2 handers because I have a choice in the matter. Just like anyone using puncturing, if given the choice would choose a rapier over a shortsword or dagger. Because the weapons inherent stats are simply better. It just happens to be that crafting a dps greataxe is significantly easier than acquiring stat damaging rapiers.

And yes I do use the full PA line, so I cant speak for nonwf barbs.

[Aranticus]

Because you don't need to take any of the THF Feats to wield a weapon two handed without any penalty. All the THF line does is grant you glancing blows during various swings and increase their to-hit.

if so then it only back by 1 feat as the ITWF, GTWF increases the number of attacks. 1 feat is not that huge a difference.

back to topic. the imbalance of the 2 lines is due to the insane stat scores which we can achieve be it from tomes or from level increase. in pnp, CE, PA and other abilities which reduces attack bonuses are situational as the players cannot reach a high to hit. in ddo my fighter is generally running along with to hit in the 50+ region. power up away and i still hit mobs. in pnp, thf is almost bound to hit everytime while twf usually misses some of its many attacks. in ddo both of them hit on a 2 which mean the main penalty of missing is not affecting the twf!

more importantly, in pnp, there are no dump stats. build a 6 cha dwarven thf and the DM will punish you for it. here there is no incentive not to dump stat and thus less restriction on character building. that is where the fault lies.

[BlackSteel]

Because you don't need to take any of the THF Feats to wield a weapon two handed without any penalty. All the THF line does is grant you glancing blows during various swings and increase their to-hit.

may not need to take the feats, but they'll add more damage to your attack than weapon spec will. So why not take them? Taking either line is the best way to increase your dps thru feats, nothing else is gonna come close.

[Tanka]

may not need to take the feats, but they'll add more damage to your attack than weapon spec will. So why not take them? Taking either line is the best way to increase your dps thru feats, nothing else is gonna come close.
Oh, it's in fact very good DPS. However, not every build can find room for them. Many builds, such as my Tanka build, are so feat-starved that they can't afford any at all.

[Cold_Stele]

I wont touch the other 2 handers because I have a choice in the matter. Just like anyone using puncturing, if given the choice would choose a rapier over a shortsword or dagger. Because the weapons inherent stats are simply better. It just happens to be that crafting a dps greataxe is significantly easier than acquiring stat damaging rapiers.

And yes I do use the full PA line, so I cant speak for nonwf barbs.

But it's not a problem with the PnP stat line - you yourself say you'd like to use falchions. The problem with falchions and greatswords is the swing speeds which Turbine gave them purely for aesthetic reasons.

Hence a problem with THF caused by the devs, and fixable by the devs...