Ever use psionics?

[SniptheShadow]

This question came up in another thread. I thought I'd post it over here just to see if people have utilized it much in their pnp sessions.

So how many people have used psionics before? And if you have, do you mind giving an example of how things went, i.e. provs vs. cons, challenges, did things run smoothly. Is it a hindrance or a benefit to the game?

Anything else you can think of...

Thanks

Snip

[rimble]

I have a player playing a Thrallherd through the Shackled City Adventure Path right now. I think he's 6th level, though I think he's missed the last two sessions.

Psionics are mostly what I think magic should be. It has always annoyed me, that, for example, you have like 3 8th level spells left to cast...but can't muster up a Magic Missile because it's not memorized (Wizard) or you've used all the spells of that level (Sorcerer).

I've also always disliked 'incremental' spells. Level 1: Magic Missile, Level 4: Force Missiles. It should be one Missile spell and you make it as powerful as you want (with limits set by your stats and level and such). Level 1: Mage Armor, Level 4: Greater Mage Armor...so stupid. I think World of Warcraft progresses alot like that and it always ticked me off...Fire I, Fire II, Fire III, Fire IV...wow, exciting.

So, the spellpoint system of psionics addresses those for me, I like it. I like the flexibility.

However, the Thrallherd PC is pretty darn powerful. He tends not to participate in the little fights and saves up everything to dump on the big fights. He's pretty darn tough too since he can spend more power points to make the psionic equivalent of Mage Armor give more than 4AC, and same with the psionic equivalent of Shield. He's also an Elan so he can burn power points to mitigate damage, which he pretty much HAS to do if he gets hit because he is not sturdy. Hard to hit, but frail.

He just got his first Thrall which we'll generate randomly and then let the PC choose how it levels up going forward. Soon he'll get more brain control powers like Dominate and such and I've warned him of the alignment difficulties in that. I know it's weird, but it's morally okay to defeat an enemy in combat and move on. It's a little more evil to Dominate an enemy and then make them walk into a trap for you. We'll work those out though, he's aware of the situation and sensitive to the moral dilemma.

He's also been warned that there will have to be some sort of arbitrary limit to his Dominated minions, this game is about the PCs, not their herd of Dominated minions. I mean, if he wants to gather them and march them back to town for incarceration that's fine, but I'm not waiting for him and his 15 minions to complete their turn in combat.

The party suffers from his lack of versatility. Sure he can really wreck things, but that's about it. He has no mojo to help solve problems, remove negative effects, research ancient mysteries, no Spellcraft, no Knowledge (arcana)...blah blah...he's just a cannon.

The player is having fun. I'd say he's about as powerful as a Sorcerer right now, maybe a little more powerful in certain regards--like AC, and flexibility (he has a Lightning Bolt type power that can be of any element type)--but lacking in some other party favorites--Haste, Fly, etc.

[Orion]

This question came up in another thread. I thought I'd post it over here just to see if people have utilized it much in their pnp sessions.

So how many people have used psionics before? And if you have, do you mind giving an example of how things went, i.e. provs vs. cons, challenges, did things run smoothly. Is it a hindrance or a benefit to the game?

Anything else you can think of...

Thanks

Snip
Psionics was TSR's way of introducing a "Spell Point" magic system into AD&D. The original magic system was based on that in Jack Vance's Dying Sun series of SF/Fantasy novels; other RPGs came out using a simpler spell point system where the caster had a # of spell points and spent those on his spells as he cast them. There was a spirited discussion in the D&D community about the merits of each magic system. In the end combat was balanced around the Vance system so it won out. But then just to sell books - er., cater to the needs of the D&D community, T$R introduced psionics. In some ways they regretted it to the day they folded their tent because psionics are and always have been completely unbalanced. In the 1st ed AD&D a 1st level character with psionics could blow away a group of charging hill giants with psionic blast and jump to 3rd-4th level from the XP award. Then the party would go around a corner, run into a Mindflayer, and get creamed instantly. The revised system they came out with for 2nd Ed worked better iirc but still had problems achieving balance.

I'm not up-to-date on psionics in 3rd and 4th ed D&D but basically you have this: the power gamers "have" to have it because they see it as an advantage and they get really ****y if you try to rein them in or give them scenarios that are challenging to psionists. It seems to attract players that the "regular" magic system is too complicated for them to understand and they just want to kill lots of stuff, real fast, w/o breaking into a sweat. That's not real good for character development or role playing unless your goal is to become the biggest <richard> in the group.

[Vikkus]

This question came up in another thread. I thought I'd post it over here just to see if people have utilized it much in their pnp sessions.

So how many people have used psionics before? And if you have, do you mind giving an example of how things went, i.e. provs vs. cons, challenges, did things run smoothly. Is it a hindrance or a benefit to the game?

Anything else you can think of...

Thanks

Snip

It was kind of hard to use in 2nd ed. Where my group used it the most is when we ran a Dark Sun campaign. It was used alot in that game setting.

Mostly the problem seems if only one person has access to this and the rest of your world doesn't it is hard to balance. So if you are going to grant some of your players this ability it would be useful to add a base of NPCs that do the same.

[sigtrent]

In 2nd edition psionics was rather broken, low level characters could get access to some very powerful effects. It did not integrate very well into the other game mechanics etc...

In 3rd edition it was better integrated but there were still many opportunities to bend or break the system because it let you dump massive points into super powered attacks. They made great enemies for "boss fights" as they could legitimately do some really evil stuff and most enemies only last a few rounds so the ability to shoot their wad so to speak made them scary to face down.

In 4th... no psionics yet but coming soon. I've a feeling they will at last not be especially broken since the 4th mechanics are so universal for all classes. They will just be a different flavor of Tank/Dps/Control or whatever role they end up having classes for.

[Depravity]

I've played psionic characters in 2nd, 3.0 and 3.5. I think they actually did a nice job in 3.5, augmentation was a really nice touch, giving psions some incredible flexibility.

Problems from 3.5:
*Energy Substitution came free with all the psionic powers that were evocation spell equivalents. A little character knowledge rapidly gave them an advantage in being never without an unresisted element type. That was probably too many negatives. Just be aware they will throw the best possible energy type at all times.
*DO NOT ALLOW Psychic Reformation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psychicReformation.htm), a 4th level power that let characters rechoose all their previous skills/powers/feats for a pittance of an XP cost. It was just plain broken. I should know, I abused it like a redheaded stepchild.
*Nobody dumps like a psion. Wizard/Sorc auto dice scaling and metamagics actually gave them a slight edge in raw damage output on any single spell, but a psion's powers literally never cap on dice and can keep firing the metad spells over and over again without worrying about spell slots. Try to encourage small amounts of useage on a regular basis to keep them from being able to dump tremendously on an obvious centerpiece battle (same deal as other casters, but psipoint flexibility can make it a little more finicky)
*Watch out for Elans abusing the deal where they can trade 1 psi point to negate two points of incoming damage. Having a wizard equivalent that can be meatier than the meat is a tad...disturbing. Especially with the feat that ups that to 4. I had a psion that could suck up something like 2000ish points of damage without getting winded.
*Crowns can become massively powerful if your player is good at math. May want to avoid giving their character time to craft one.
*Astral constructs can be built in such a manner that they slow combat down. Watch out for multi-armed improved tripping models. Lots of dice. Have your players write up "standard models" like they were extra character sheets so they aren't always doing all the numbercrunching during a session.
*Psipowers have no material/somatic/verbal components, so some of the classic ways of shutting down a caster just plain don't work (The Silence! It does nothing!).

Good stuff:
*Some really neat powers that are unlike anything else in the game (Touchsight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/touchsight.htm) was always a favorite of mine.)
*Excuse to feed your players to a mindflayer. What DM doesn't love that? Although feeding them to a mole (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/brainMole.htm) is probably even more shaming/satisfying.
*Psionic hybrid classes (lurk, psychic warrior) open up some really interesting tactical options without being terribly overpowered. Bull charges with the Up The Walls (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#upTheWalls) feat can make for some twisted combat.
*Little compares to having your character (literally) blow stuff up with his mind.
*Nukers will actually run out of steam a bit faster than an equivalent wizard. Augmentation is powerful, but it costs. Essentially, full damage dice means they're always expending the equivalent of a top level spell slot to fire off the power. So psionicist evoker types tend to be self limiting.

I'd suggest using something close to the full transparency rules - psionics is a form of magic, dispel psionics = dispel magic, null magic field = null psionic field, etc. Spell Resistance and Power Resistance become the same thing. That usually keeps most of the "doesn't say it works on psionics, so I'm immune" nonsense down. Make sure your players know how you're going to handle things.

As Vikkus pointed out, the lone psychic can be problematic. Working psionic enemies into the world gives everyone a chance to shine/be vulnerable.

Just for fun, throw an enemy at your players with an Eversmoking Bottle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#eversmokingBottle) and Touchsight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/touchsight.htm).

Haven't played much 4th edition, but I have glanced at the psionics rules in the latest players handbook update. They get to spend (fairly limited) psi points to upgrade an at will into an encounter level power. Looks to be pretty well integrated, really.

[SquelchHU]

This question came up in another thread. I thought I'd post it over here just to see if people have utilized it much in their pnp sessions.

So how many people have used psionics before? And if you have, do you mind giving an example of how things went, i.e. provs vs. cons, challenges, did things run smoothly. Is it a hindrance or a benefit to the game?

Anything else you can think of...

Thanks

Snip

I've seen it used before. Psionics is inferior to magic in every possible way except making a melee combat oriented gish where it is debatable, but magic still wins.

The nukes are worse. And since this is 3.5 we're talking about the nukes are already very weak as is, but at least the 10d6 Fireball is still only a 3rd level spell slot instead of effectively being level 5.5. So you pay more to get an effect that was already a waste of a turn.

The save or dies/loses/etc are worse because they are easier to resist, are blocked by more common immunities (many are mind affecting for example), and affect fewer targets. The only real semi exception is Ego Whip which is still useless on anything immune to mind affecting but does something different and better in that it will probably one round a low Cha type (like most of the party and a fair bit of the Monster Manual) even if they pass the save later on. Of course by then you have far worse things you can do than make someone helpless by stat damage.

The reason why their ability as a gish is debatable is because psionic powers do manage to do this fairly well. Of course they still don't do it as well as magic (having an AC that might actually be relevant due to Inertial Armor + Force Screen is still a worse deal than (Greater) Mirror Image, Displacement, (Greater) Blink etc) but it isn't a total loss.

So in short psionics is a weaker form of magic. This isn't necessarily bad, since magic practically automatically wins everything. But it does run counter to the common, but wrong belief that psionics is 'broken'. So if you are in a high powered game, or expect to have to drag a lot of dead weight take the magic guy. If a more moderate approach is in order take the psychic.

Further, anyone who tells you psionics are broken either:

1: Has no idea what they are talking about and/or doing.
2: Is ignoring the rule that caps PP at your manifester level. See point 1.
3: Thinks nuking is actually a worthwhile use of actions and is missing the fact they're still worse at it. Again, see point 1.

[timberhick]

The Ardent in my game is having fun. D&D Encounters started this week and I had a Monk and Battlemind in the first session, they were having a blast.

[Symar-FangofLloth]

I've played a low level Psy Warrior Shifter.
He was fun. But played more like a Ranger or something. And was gimpy; I didn't know my way around D&D yet.
And it was low level. Things don't kick in until higher than that group ever made it.

[Vikkus]

This question came up in another thread. I thought I'd post it over here just to see if people have utilized it much in their pnp sessions.

So how many people have used psionics before? And if you have, do you mind giving an example of how things went, i.e. provs vs. cons, challenges, did things run smoothly. Is it a hindrance or a benefit to the game?

Anything else you can think of...

Thanks

Snip

What system are you using? I haven't had a character with psionics in years. Might be fun to try again.