Dps

[Verdant_Force]

Regarding feats...

If I have neither the Dex for the TWF line of feats, or the desire to waste 3 feats on THF (I feel they are a waste of feats), do I have any other options- or are those the only way to go to deal serious damage?

Going pure barbarian to 16 of course...

[tihocan]

Just use two-handed weapons without the feats (take at least power attack).

[juniorpfactors]

large mistake not to take the THF feats....the glancing blows add up to huge dps, and power attack is a must

jrp

[Beherit_Baphomar]

large mistake not to take the THF feats....the glancing blows add up to huge dps, and power attack is a must

jrp

I echo this mans opinion.

[Mhykke]

Why do you feel the THF feats are wastes, if I may ask?

You know they affect your main target also. And hitting for 30 on a glancing blow, when you think about it, some one handed wielders hit for 30ish. So you're doing damage from your main attack, along w/ the equivalent of another party member wielding a one hander.

[barabel]

I have been thinking of building a Barbarian (the only class I haven't really tried yet) and was wondering how Glancing blows works with special attacks like Cleave, Great Cleave, Whirlwind.

If you make one of these special attacks with a character that has some/all of the THF feats, do they do anything extra?

[Verdant_Force]

Why do you feel the THF feats are wastes, if I may ask?

You know they affect your main target also. And hitting for 30 on a glancing blow, when you think about it, some one handed wielders hit for 30ish. So you're doing damage from your main attack, along w/ the equivalent of another party member wielding a one hander.

I've been browsing around the forums too much the past two days!! lol

All this loitering on the forums at work is putting false ideas in my head - I had a notion that the difference between using a 2 hander without the THF feats and using it with them wasn't THAT big of a difference. I guess all I was looking for was reassurance that the path I wanted to take all along was worth it, endgame wise.

I'm easily convinced- If you guys are backing the feat line and use it on your level 16 characters then I will be glad to take them. Again, I guess I've been on the TWF threads too much and seeing the dps potential for them it got me jealous and I started doubting the future of my barbarian! lol :o

[BlackSteel]

theres alot of hype for twf, but it doesnt edge by THF by much.

Ran ritual sacrifice the other night agaisnt a well played twf barb, dual deathnips one run, dual w/p rapiers the other. I was using my all purpose mineral 2 maul for both runs. Was neck n neck the entire quest. Ended up 109 vs 108 twf on top at end. w/p run was looking to be the same, neck n neck, but got the stupid portal bug halfway thru, so no final tally on it yet.

TWF is just the current flavor. Theres absolutely nothing wrong or gimp about a thf build. And its alot cheaper to play, a shroud weapon and you're good to go. Dual shroud weapons, or two deathnips, or two w/p rapiers are gonna cost. alot.

Alot of it also has to do with the player, a badly played barb of either line wont stand up agaisnt one of the other. And a good player can recover and do alot more with a build than you would expect.

[Averroes]

theres alot of hype for twf, but it doesnt edge by THF by much.


Nice post. I agree.

And I have a funny to share along those lines: so I join a shroud pug with my barbarian (who pre-dates all the twf stuff), and when I port in a couple of them start teasing me about my weapon (a sword of shadow) and how outdated it is. In response to someone who'd asked why I use it, I replied that I use it because I can dps the shroud trogs down faster than y'all can vorpal them. That was apparently taken as a challenge, and two dual-wielders stepped up to the plate to see who'd rack up the most kills in part one. Dunno what they were using, but from their guild tag I'd expect solid weapons.

End of story: even though the two dual-wielders ignored the portals and roamed the whole time (and I didn't...), that section ended with me outkilling both of them and both of the group's arcanes, by a reasonable margin.

Laughs were had on the private voice channel. ;)



To return to the thread topic briefly: the advantages of THF aren't all reducable to numbers on a graph, although those look pretty nice anyway. Being able to hit something while out of it's attack range is a pretty powerful thing, as just one example...

[Oreg]

theres alot of hype for twf, but it doesnt edge by THF by much.

Ran ritual sacrifice the other night agaisnt a well played twf barb, dual deathnips one run, dual w/p rapiers the other. I was using my all purpose mineral 2 maul for both runs. Was neck n neck the entire quest. Ended up 109 vs 108 twf on top at end. w/p run was looking to be the same, neck n neck, but got the stupid portal bug halfway thru, so no final tally on it yet.

TWF is just the current flavor. Theres absolutely nothing wrong or gimp about a thf build. And its alot cheaper to play, a shroud weapon and you're good to go. Dual shroud weapons, or two deathnips, or two w/p rapiers are gonna cost. alot.

Alot of it also has to do with the player, a badly played barb of either line wont stand up agaisnt one of the other. And a good player can recover and do alot more with a build than you would expect.

THF = big hits which often yields kills (last hits). Not saying twf is better dps but kill counts doesn't validate the dps comparison.

[Hanam]

theres alot of hype for twf, but it doesnt edge by THF by much.

I have two barbarians with equal strength ( just barb rage 40 str) . One is TWF (Deathnip and tier 2 positive heavy pick) the other is THF (Sword of shadows). Versus more than one mob the THF edges out a bit but against a single target, the TWF smokes my THF's dps.

[Shagn]

I have two barbarians with equal strength ( just barb rage 40 str) . One is TWF (Deathnip and tier 2 positive heavy pick) the other is THF (Sword of shadows). Versus more than one mob the THF edges out a bit but against a single target, the TWF smokes my THF's dps.

I would agree save one minor weapon change. Use a greensteel greataxe (mineral II or pure positive tier3) instead of SoS (plus on a dwarf with +2 axe damage enhancement). Swing rate is faster than SoS, plus base damage is higher (3d6) which means stronger glancing blows. I am in Blacksteel's guild, and both him and the other player (Clean) are very good.

I also like the 2hf line because I like getting extra damage on surround mobs, not to mention good damage on a single target. Plus it helps clear out those annoying bats in Visions. :cool:

[BlackSteel]

Its the Shagn wagon!! Dont think I've ever seen you post before.

In a long enough quest, as the only melee it does a good indication of whats working and whats not, not to mention for the most part we tried to go after seperate mobs, then join up on the elementals. Except for the portal fight, then its more of a who can hit the most home run bats.

If you'd rather just run the numbers to prove dps, then please include glancing blows in there. 30 on half of attacks. Assume a 20 str bonus for both, and 8 PA on the twf and 22 PA on the thf. Sure the twf gets about 40 more attacks a minute. But you're looking at an average of 40 more damage a hit for the thf.

It was very close, mobs went down the same speed for both of us, the exception being on the earth ele's when he was using the w/p. THF fared better on the lower HP mobs, like gnoll archers and the bats, as bats were 1 hit KO's with or without a crit, and the archers could be dispatched at a max of 3 hits.

Am curious how my THF wouldve fared with a nice greater bane weapon. With PA jacked up so high he misses some mobs more than he should, an extra 2-3 to hit would definetly fix that. (or if I ever finished his setup, currently missing a few items that would help more than a bit, still short 2 more to hit, and 3 base damage)

All n all it was alot of fun to compare in quest.

[Dark-Star]

I am the TWF barb in question, and had been asking Blacksteel to humor me in a kill count comparison for a few weeks, so that I could decide if I want to make a THF barb as well.

Honestly I was expecting to smoke him with two Deathnips vs. his Mineral II maul, when i do the math it seems very lopsided, but that was not the case.

We both had bard songs, he is WF and I am human, so power attack and boosts are a bit different. Besides that things were equal; we both know the quest well, and were aggressively going after mobs. We stopped to let the other catch up if one person got ahead too far.

One run doesn't make a solid sample, but it was close enough for me to dispell the misconception I had about two handed fighting. Blacksteel plays his barb as good as any player I have run with.

The jury is still out on Min II maul vs. two wop raps, we have to redo that test due to the quest bugging. But even those numbers were surprising to me halfway through Ritual elite.

[Spisey]

I am the TWF barb in question, and had been asking Blacksteel to humor me in a kill count comparison for a few weeks, so that I could decide if I want to make a THF barb as well.

Honestly I was expecting to smoke him with two Deathnips vs. his Mineral II maul, when i do the math it seems very lopsided, but that was not the case.

We both had bard songs, he is WF and I am human, so power attack and boosts are a bit different. Besides that things were equal; we both know the quest well, and were aggressively going after mobs. We stopped to let the other catch up if one person got ahead too far.

One run doesn't make a solid sample, but it was close enough for me to dispell the misconception I had about two handed fighting. Blacksteel plays his barb as good as any player I have run with.

The jury is still out on Min II maul vs. two wop raps, we have to redo that test due to the quest bugging. But even those numbers were surprising to me halfway through Ritual elite.


Easy, 2 wop rapiers on a 14th level barb is by far the nastiest for the non-boss types. But two deathnips is still gonna hit for more times and therefore more dps than the maul with gtwf. Would say that's an opinion but 100% sure that holds true with a 15-20 crit range! :)

[Verdant_Force]

Easy, 2 wop rapiers on a 14th level barb is by far the nastiest for the non-boss types. But two deathnips is still gonna hit for more times and therefore more dps than the maul with gtwf. Would say that's an opinion but 100% sure that holds true with a 15-20 crit range! :)

Could you not achieve an equally nasty crit range with a greataxe and improved crit feats and barb crit rage? Forgive me if i'm wrong, because I'm not aware if they stack or not.

[Guildmaster_Kadish]

Could you not achieve an equally nasty crit range with a greataxe and improved crit feats and barb crit rage? Forgive me if i'm wrong, because I'm not aware if they stack or not.

17-20/x3 isn't quite as good as 2x 15-20/x4. But yes, your crit range is still pretty nasty with a greataxe.

[BlackSteel]

Easy, 2 wop rapiers on a 14th level barb is by far the nastiest for the non-boss types. But two deathnips is still gonna hit for more times and therefore more dps than the maul with gtwf. Would say that's an opinion but 100% sure that holds true with a 15-20 crit range! :)

Just because TWF hits more doesnt mean its more DPS, THF hits for more damage on every swing. TWF has to make up in ~35-40 hits, all the extra damage that THF did in its 135 hits/minute. Which if you average in the glancing blow damage on a single target(since multiple targets is impossible to calculate or assume, but single is), THF is hitting for 40 damage more a swing. 135 x 40 is what TWF has to exceed on its extra attacks. Crit damage is comparable, x3 for more base damage vs x4 with less base dam. Biggest difference is the difference in crit range.

[Aerilyn]

My Barbarian is currently Level 14 Rank 7:) I am holding off on leveling as my Sorc buddy is holding up my progression:) Just wondering what I get for levels 15 & 16 for a Barbarian vs. 2 levels of Fighter where I would get simular HP's and 2 additional feats.

Thanks in advance for any advise:)

BTW I Have a Tier 3 GA on him and he hits like a BEAST:)

Thorfyn Skullsplitter

[Shagn]

Easy, 2 wop rapiers on a 14th level barb is by far the nastiest for the non-boss types. But two deathnips is still gonna hit for more times and therefore more dps than the maul with gtwf. Would say that's an opinion but 100% sure that holds true with a 15-20 crit range! :)

Actually, default crit range on rapiers is 17-20. Improved Crit: Pierce moves it to 15-20. Barb crit adds another two to make it 13-20.
A greataxe is x3 on 20. Imp crit slash makes it 19-20, and barb crit rage makes it 17-20.
Also remember that your strength bonus adds extra damage each swing for thf (I think it's half your str bonus added on top). The extra glancing blows with greater thf hit not only on your main target, but other targets also, and will be similar to twf.

I find it much easier to go with thf because you only have to craft one weapon and not carry around two of everything. :p

Anybody look at the numbers for a green steel falchion? It's only a x2 crit, but I hear the glancing blows are supposed to have more base damage.

Aerilyn: go ahead and take two levels of fighter... I'm gonna love going pure barb and get barb crit rage III at lvl20. :D

[Spisey]

Could you not achieve an equally nasty crit range with a greataxe and improved crit feats and barb crit rage? Forgive me if i'm wrong, because I'm not aware if they stack or not.

No, you are right and all about personal opinion. The GA will be able to hit on a 17-20 with barb enhancements and ic: slashing. The twf dps is for sure more item dependent.

[Spisey]

Aerilyn: go ahead and take two levels of fighter... I'm gonna love going pure barb and get barb crit rage III at lvl20. :D

**** you and your pure barbs! Bah I have to reroll now for my half orc barb so I can get that on him too... :p

[Hanam]

Just because TWF hits more doesnt mean its more DPS, THF hits for more damage on every swing. TWF has to make up in ~35-40 hits, all the extra damage that THF did in its 135 hits/minute. Which if you average in the glancing blow damage on a single target(since multiple targets is impossible to calculate or assume, but single is), THF is hitting for 40 damage more a swing. 135 x 40 is what TWF has to exceed on its extra attacks. Crit damage is comparable, x3 for more base damage vs x4 with less base dam. Biggest difference is the difference in crit range.

I just logged on my 2 barbarians and used the rage spell and then barbarian rage. (42 strength)

TWF : Main hand damage bonus 29 (Deathnip)
Off hand damage bonus 21 (Tier II Heavy pick)

THF : Damage bonus 47 (+5 Silver greataxe of pure good)(dwarf axe damage II)

The Greataxe only outdamages my main hand by 18 and my offhand by 26. Where the hell are you getting 40 more a swing? Using Heavy picks for this example is disadvantageous. If I was comparing Greensteel Dwarven TWF to Greensteel greataxe THF the difference would be much smaller. Glancing blows may be 30+ damage but they cannot crit and do not use damage effects like pure good.

[Shagn]

Where the hell are you getting 40 more a swing?

I'm wondering if he was comparing the Deathnip's (base dmg 1d6) the other barb was using to his swings with a greensteel greataxe (3d6) as they used in their comparison for Ritual Sacrifice. I don't think he was talking about damage bonus, I think he was talking about damage per hit (combat log). That is how I read into it anyway... I could be wrong.

[Averroes]

I just logged on my 2 barbarians and used the rage spell and then barbarian rage. (42 strength)

TWF : Main hand damage bonus 29 (Deathnip)
Off hand damage bonus 21 (Tier II Heavy pick)

THF : Damage bonus 47 (+5 Silver greataxe of pure good)(dwarf axe damage II)

The Greataxe only outdamages my main hand by 18 and my offhand by 26. Where the hell are you getting 40 more a swing? Using Heavy picks for this example is disadvantageous. If I was comparing Greensteel Dwarven TWF to Greensteel greataxe THF the difference would be much smaller. Glancing blows may be 30+ damage but they cannot crit and do not use damage effects like pure good.

Glancing blows. +30 on 50% of your attacks, so +15 per if you're doing a one-swing average. So the greataxe with the feats outdamages your main hand by 33 and your offhand by 41, without considering crits.

Edit: Actually, it's 60% of your attacks. 1st swing, 3rd, 5th IIRC. So +18. 36 and 44.

[BlackSteel]

correct, being generous and saying +15 from glancing blows, 8 PA compared to 22 PA, then the str difference (10) for a total of 39. Thats not counting the damage dice on the weapons.

If you go to the achievements forum, theres a post of a wf barb with a +67 damage modifier on his character sheet while fighting the pit fiend. And he was still missing some gear and boosts in that photo.

[BlackSteel]

in the current game theres no reason not to take 2 lvls of fighter, you get several useful enhancements out of it. Currently having those fighter lvls makes it easier to hit max str, and you get the haste boost. A level cap raise, and future enhancements tho could very easily change whats more desirable. Mighty Rage at 20 compensates for the additional str, but nothing replaces the haste boost. Personally I would stay pure barb and hold out for 20 cap. My barb carries enough boosts already (find it hard enough to use them all between shrines). And I plan on hitting an even max str anyway if I can ever get a steady Abbott going on Khyber.