whirlwind attack and great cleave

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

Just got great cleave on my monk, and keensly got whirlwind attack (after some gentle persuasion). WW gives two attacks when you do it wearing handwraps, and it looks really great - you do three 360degree spins in the air - as well as making a cool wind sound effect... Great Cleave makes you jump into the air and then do the splits, followed by a sweeping kick. Great Cleave appears to have a bug where the attack has a delay before appearing in the combat log though - like the animation is not in sync with the hit effect.

To see both strikes in action - go here (http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/29040) and then go to 4:20 on the clock.

Worth getting just for the animation in my view - kudos to the devs... now we know what Codog was doing for two solid months...

Garth

[Ceryk]

Just got great cleave on my monk, and keensly got whirlwind attack (after some gentle persuasion). WW gives two attacks when you do it wearing handwraps, and it looks really great - you do three 360degree spins in the air - as well as making a cool wind sound effect... Great Cleave makes you jump into the air and then do the splits, followed by a sweeping kick. Great Cleave appears to have a bug where the attack has a delay before appearing in the combat log though - like the animation is not in sync with the hit effect.

To see both strikes in action - go here (http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/29040) and then go to 4:20 on the clock.

Worth getting just for the animation in my view - kudos to the devs... now we know what Codog was doing for two solid months...

Garth

hmm... I think Whirlwind would have been better served doing multiple spinning kicks or some of those crazy tornado kicks I've seen some people do in real life instead of a silly Street Fighter attack. And the Great Cleave doesn't make sense because of the split kick going back to front, but you don't hit things behind you. Now if it was a side split kick, that would have made sense. But it's good to actually see them finally.

[Strakeln]

hmm... I think Whirlwind would have been better served doing multiple spinning kicks or some of those crazy tornado kicks I've seen some people do in real life instead of a silly Street Fighter attack. And the Great Cleave doesn't make sense because of the split kick going back to front, but you don't hit things behind you. Now if it was a side split kick, that would have made sense. But it's good to actually see them finally.Couple clarifications on this:

1) Great cleave is actually a 360 degree attack, and has been for quite some time (on all characters, not just monks). Easy to prove with barrels.
2) The "splits" portion of the monk's great cleave does no damage. Only the spinning portion. I try to time it so that I do that part while still running towards mobs, and the spinning portion goes off just as I reach them.

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

Couple clarifications on this:

1) Great cleave is actually a 360 degree attack, and has been for quite some time (on all characters, not just monks). Easy to prove with barrels.
2) The "splits" portion of the monk's great cleave does no damage. Only the spinning portion. I try to time it so that I do that part while still running towards mobs, and the spinning portion goes off just as I reach them.

...if great cleave is 360 as well - what's the difference between WW and GC? Just that WW gets two attacks instead of one?

Garth

[TreknaQudane]

I'm pretty sure Great Cleave is only 180 or 270, Monsters would be a better way to test then breakables

[Strakeln]

I'm pretty sure Great Cleave is only 180 or 270, Monsters would be a better way to test then breakablesAside from the monsters moving and all...

Great Cleave's description says 270 degrees. I don't think anyone should be all that surprised that the description varies from the actual behavior... it's not like we don't see that kind of thing all the time here.

Like I suggested, test it yourself. I said the same thing when someone told me on these forums, then I tested it myself, and found out they were right.

Regarding Whirlwind, I didn't know it had two attacks until the OP, and have to wonder it that is as-intended or a bug.

Edit: a couple places to test with breakables: Trial By Fire has a room where you can almost completely surround yourself with boxes, and the first part in the Crucible has several areas with 3-4 boxes tightly packed.

[vyvy3369]

I'm pretty sure Great Cleave is only 180 or 270, Monsters would be a better way to test then breakables
I'm not sure I follow that logic...get your back to a barrel and try to Great Cleave so that you miss, spin in place so you're facing it and you'll still miss. Take a tiny step closer & repeat, and you'll break it while directly behind you before you can break it while facing it. Or at least it did back when I bothered to test it a long time ago.

Monsters move around, so how can you really be sure what their location is? If you miss, can you really say whether it was because they weren't in the arc or because they moved out of your reach entirely and you'd have missed even if facing them?

Edit: Yep, just tested again, and still the same - as soon as it gets within your reach, you can hit it directly behind you just as easily as when it's in front of you.

[Ceryk]

Couple clarifications on this:

1) Great cleave is actually a 360 degree attack, and has been for quite some time (on all characters, not just monks). Easy to prove with barrels.
2) The "splits" portion of the monk's great cleave does no damage. Only the spinning portion. I try to time it so that I do that part while still running towards mobs, and the spinning portion goes off just as I reach them.

1) I just started playing again, so I was not aware of that. I wouldn't have known that, and unless there's dev documentation, I'm skeptical about it unless it's a bug.

2) And it has nothing to do with whether there is damage done "by" the splits, I was speaking of the animation in general in relation the fact that it's supposed to be a 270 degree arc attack and kicking backwards in a 270 degree attack makes no sense. Of course, if it is indeed now a 360 degree attack, it would make sense.

[Strakeln]

Of course, if it is indeed now a 360 degree attack, it would make sense.For all I know, it may have always been a 360 degree attack. I always thought it was 270 until someone told me otherwise and suggested I test it.

I guess all that time I thought I was just really good at great-cleaving :D

[valczir]

I got rid of Great Cleave because of the long delay on the unarmed animation =\ Cleave is still useful, but Great Cleave takes too long to pull off and too long to recharge, for me.

I'm going to be re-making my monk after I hit 1750 favor, and he'll be going the Whirlwind Attack route. Despite the longer cooldown on Whirlwind Attack, the feats leading up to it seem more useful for an unarmed monk (I hate using power attack - I'd rather hit my enemies than deal a little bit of extra damage to them), and the animation doesn't have the delay of Great Cleave, from what I can tell.

[TommyBoy]

WW gives two attacks when you do it wearing handwraps, and it looks really great - you do three 360degree spins in the air - as well as making a cool wind sound effect...

It also lets your travel forward a bit when you do it. so you can actually hit it and fly through the mobs. try it on the kobolds in SC you'll take out the whole group.

[Gratch]

Aside from the monsters moving and all...

Great Cleave's description says 270 degrees. I don't think anyone should be all that surprised that the description varies from the actual behavior... it's not like we don't see that kind of thing all the time here.


Given you're actually interested in hitting/killing mobs... which may have different hit detection box sizes than breakables... grab a wizard/sorc to stone monsters... then test great cleave for arc. I wonder if mob size matters. Maybe try some giants, wolves and humanoids in threnal.

[Strakeln]

Given you're actually interested in hitting/killing mobs... which may have different hit detection box sizes than breakables... grab a wizard/sorc to stone monsters... then test great cleave for arc. I wonder if mob size matters. Maybe try some giants, wolves and humanoids in threnal.I think I'll leave this testing to others. I've been using Cleave and Great Cleave for two years or so now, I'm certain that I know how they work... it's others who are not.

Additional testing on my end will not correct anyone else's perceptions.

[Aesop]

I got rid of Great Cleave because of the long delay on the unarmed animation =\ Cleave is still useful, but Great Cleave takes too long to pull off and too long to recharge, for me.

I'm going to be re-making my monk after I hit 1750 favor, and he'll be going the Whirlwind Attack route. Despite the longer cooldown on Whirlwind Attack, the feats leading up to it seem more useful for an unarmed monk (I hate using power attack - I'd rather hit my enemies than deal a little bit of extra damage to them), and the animation doesn't have the delay of Great Cleave, from what I can tell.

I usually use both

first Great Cleave then Cleave ... then cleave then greatcleave rinse repeat works nicely with a Vorpal... unfortunatley I messed up on my build and need a +3 Int tome so I can take Combat Expertise... I was ticked when I finally realized it ... and I'm not rebuilding dang it... I just won't level past 14 til i get it I guess

Aesop

[Detton]

Is Whirlwind worth getting, really? Aside from the cool animation, which i've seen :) I know it's a bit of a push to add even more attribute points to a class that's already heavily dependant on alot of them as it is.

I'm closing in, slowly, on 1750, and I was deciding if I wanted to raise my int up for it or to just go with cleave/great cleave again when I work on my next monk

[Mhalak]

Spring Attack is great, and WW gives you one more opportunity for Paralyze/Disrupt/Banish/Smite in a crowd.

Having both cleave and great cleave is very nice - run and cleave into a crowd with a paralyzer and clerics will love you. Being able to AoE whenever you want (will Cleave, Great Cleave and WW) might be seen by some as overkill, but if that is how you build, it could be very powerful.

Just be prepared to handle the aggro :D

Is it worth it the commitment necessary to get it? (4 feats & stat points)

Ultimately, it comes down to the individual playstyle & build.

[valczir]

Is Whirlwind worth getting, really? Aside from the cool animation, which i've seen :) I know it's a bit of a push to add even more attribute points to a class that's already heavily dependant on alot of them as it is.

I'm closing in, slowly, on 1750, and I was deciding if I wanted to raise my int up for it or to just go with cleave/great cleave again when I work on my next monk

It depends on your play style and your weapon choice. If you're fighting unarmed, Great Cleave sucks. For this reason, alone, I am taking Whirlwind Attack. It'll decrease my final strength by 2, but it'll give me a lot more skill points (I love skills), and the feats leading up to it fit my play style well. I'm often the only one left alive (due to monk running speed), so CE + mobility + water stance will greatly help with getting everyone's stones and rushing the shrine; dodge is always useful; and spring attack will be nice for me, as well.

I'm probably going to be going with 14/14/16/14/13/6 stats (warforged) when I hit 1750, ending up with 15/14/16/14/16/6 plus tomes and items (stat point at 20 will go to str). Having 14 int really doesn't hurt me that much - in fact, I've been looking for an excuse to have 14 int so that I can put points into hide and move silently.

Once again, it depends heavily on your play style. Pay attention to the way that you play, then make a decision based on that.

[feynman]

It depends on your play style and your weapon choice. If you're fighting unarmed, Great Cleave sucks. For this reason, alone, I am taking Whirlwind Attack. It'll decrease my final strength by 2, but it'll give me a lot more skill points (I love skills), and the feats leading up to it fit my play style well. I'm often the only one left alive (due to monk running speed), so CE + mobility + water stance will greatly help with getting everyone's stones and rushing the shrine; dodge is always useful; and spring attack will be nice for me, as well.

I'm probably going to be going with 14/14/16/14/13/6 stats (warforged) when I hit 1750, ending up with 15/14/16/14/16/6 plus tomes and items (stat point at 20 will go to str). Having 14 int really doesn't hurt me that much - in fact, I've been looking for an excuse to have 14 int so that I can put points into hide and move silently.

Once again, it depends heavily on your play style. Pay attention to the way that you play, then make a decision based on that.

You're really going to miss those tier 3 stances; earth stance is the least useful, imho.