assassination thoughts

[jkm]

after spending 7 or 8 hours in various situations with way of the assassin 2, here are my thoughts:

1) sneak attacking mobs from stealth is uh, difficult.

a) the bigger the mob the more difficult it becomes. i was 95% hitting kobolds, 85% on doggies in the orchard, 15% hitting orthons, 0% on spiders (tremor sense). it seemed that the point of contact for the sneak attack isn't the exterior of the mob but contact with their disc. so with a larger mob, you'd touch it before you got close enough to connect the attack on the mob.

b) i tried everything i could think of on spiders (i.e. stealthing from above and featherfalling down in sneak mode and hitting assassinate). it would not go off in their proximity. i tried blinding with my radiance scimmy, then sneak and assassinate, no dice mainly because....

c) getting hit breaks sneak. it doesn't matter if its a cleave, a blind mob, whatever. you get hit, it breaks sneak. you can't blind an orthon then hit sneak try as assassinate because it will spin and hit you breaking sneak, wasting the attack.

d) flipping on combat expertise puts sneak on a 30 second timer. this was entertaining before, now its just flat out irritating.

e) the new non-break of stealth on a sneak attack makes this ability very twitchy as you stay in sneak until someone breaks it. that is a ton of attacks lost as you then have to kick off sneak.

2. the dc is crazy high (mine is 29 and i'm not a pure rogue)

a) if the attack went off it was pretty much assured it was going to land. feast or famine on elite it hit 90% of the time.

b) combine this with the attack from both hands twf and its crazy lethal. was running ritual sacrafice and that silly monk creakin was taking on an orthon and a devil. assassinated both in one swing. the key was the orthon was in ranger mode and not in blender mode.

3. i like the animation, but it needs to be either bigger or more noticeable - half of the time i didn't see it.

current implementation suggestions

duplicate sneak and make it an enhancement under wota2 titled assassin sneak which doesn't break stealth on a hit or being hit whereas normal sneak does.

lower the cooldown from 15 to 6 or 10 seconds. currently this attack is suffering from the same thing that smite evil suffers from - you miss because you are having to guess and you have to wait til the 15 second counter recycles. having to stay in sneak mode is already a huge liability to the fast pace of the game as it is. ironically, the test bed has 2 pally levels and at one point was using smite as the secondary attack to test how far away i need to be from the mob.

alternative suggestions

change the dc of the attack to 0 + 1/2 rogue level + int mod and make sneak give a +10 to the dc of the attack (or alternatively, while in sneak mode you can apply 1/4 of your hide bonus).

change the attack so that if you aren't in sneak it does the 6d10 of a failed assassinate instead of giving you the "you aren't in the right stance" error.

[parvo]

Thank you for the assesment. I wondered how this was playing out.

[Hafeal]

I appreciate your thoughts. Does this make faster sneaker enhancements more desirable in your opinion?

[Vizzini]

Was wondering that myself


I appreciate your thoughts. Does this make faster sneaker enhancements more desirable in your opinion?

[jkm]

faster sneaking helps (as does 30% striders or haste). the problem really isn't the sneaking part, its the figuring out when you are in range of the mob to hit it. these are things that you don't think about normally, but with wota2 you have to feel the range. i did get to see a lot of mobs as mr cow says "pretending they didn't see me" as they walked right at me.

another point is that if you assassinate a mob, you will draw aggro from anything around it. i assassinated one of the trolls by lychomedes and one of the cats "searched" for me around the blocks and down the hill (after i jumped down) swinging his head from side to side the entire time.

[Laith]

faster sneaking helps (as does 30% striders or haste). the problem really isn't the sneaking part, its the figuring out when you are in range of the mob to hit it. these are things that you don't think about normally, but with wota2 you have to feel the range. i did get to see a lot of mobs as mr cow says "pretending they didn't see me" as they walked right at me.

another point is that if you assassinate a mob, you will draw aggro from anything around it. i assassinated one of the trolls by lychomedes and one of the cats "searched" for me around the blocks and down the hill (after i jumped down) swinging his head from side to side the entire time.yeah, that is their "i heard something" animation. failing move silently checks (but not being spotted) is perhaps among the best use of stealth in the game (ironically), as it is highly effective in splitting up groups if used properly.

...unfortunately, it's a tricky tactic: they bee-line toward the sound (ie. you), and get better and better odds at each spot check they make. your best best is to be really really fast, and to have an exit strategy (ideally something to break line of sight). Often, ditching stealth in favor of invisibility (and speed) is better than trying to sneak away, as you already have "aggro" when something's heard you (which means no more assassinate attacks).

assassinate generally leaves you too close to do anything but be spotted and attacked in a few moments.

btw: being hit isn't required to knock you out of stealth: if you are attacked at all, you are booted from stealth.

[Vizzini]

Have your tried the bluff skill, or Diplomacy and then sneak and Assassinate?


faster sneaking helps (as does 30% striders or haste). the problem really isn't the sneaking part, its the figuring out when you are in range of the mob to hit it. these are things that you don't think about normally, but with wota2 you have to feel the range. i did get to see a lot of mobs as mr cow says "pretending they didn't see me" as they walked right at me.

another point is that if you assassinate a mob, you will draw aggro from anything around it. i assassinated one of the trolls by lychomedes and one of the cats "searched" for me around the blocks and down the hill (after i jumped down) swinging his head from side to side the entire time.

[jkm]

yeah, that is their "i heard something" animation. failing move silently checks (but not being spotted) is perhaps among the best use of stealth in the game (ironically), as it is highly effective in splitting up groups if used properly.

...unfortunately, it's a tricky tactic: they bee-line toward the sound (ie. you), and get better and better odds at each spot check they make. your best best is to be really really fast, and to have an exit strategy (ideally something to break line of sight).

assassinate generally leaves you too close to do anything but be spotted and attacked in a few moments.

btw: being hit isn't required to knock you out of stealth: if you are attacked at all, you are booted from stealth.

i broke line of sight 3 times. first, it was the troll by the rest shrine that got gigged. i saw the cat stir and immediately retreated behind the stone blocks, around the corner, and jumped off the hill in sneak mode. the cat came around the blocks as i was floating down and he in look mode went all the way over to the ramp where rochussen is and came all the way back to my exact spot.

[jkm]

Have your tried the bluff skill, or Diplomacy and then sneak and Assassinate?

the biggest issue here is that as part of the "pillar fix" every mob seems to now have cleave when they attack. so even if you don't have aggro, its incredibly tough to drop into sneak and then assassinate when there is a mob swinging. one thing that i didn't look into was whether sneak was broken on a mob miss or only on a mob hit.

[Laith]

i broke line of sight 3 times. first, it was the troll by the rest shrine that got gigged. i saw the cat stir and immediately retreated behind the stone blocks, around the corner, and jumped off the hill in sneak mode. the cat came around the blocks as i was floating down and he in look mode went all the way over to the ramp where rochussen is and came all the way back to my exact spot.wasn't saying you were doing anything wrong... just pointing out more idiocyncracies with the sneak system. the "line of sight" comment mostly helps you avoid the ever-increasing spot check, and allows you to pull a target by listen further.

you'll almost never lose a target completely... the only way i've managed that is by moving so much quicker than them, that i lost them completely while still in either invisibility or sneak mode. you will not be able to do this in an explorer zone because mobs will leash first, but i've done it in quests many times.

IMO, invisibility is actually more important than sneak when avoiding enemies... which is just broken.
sorry though: sneak isn't really the focus here. i'm pulling this great OP off topic.

i did note something interesting with assassinate though by accident:
if you have a scroll or other non-weapon item in hand: the assassinate will start cooldown, but won't have any effect.

[ahpook]

the biggest issue here is that as part of the "pillar fix" every mob seems to now have cleave when they attack. so even if you don't have aggro, its incredibly tough to drop into sneak and then assassinate when there is a mob swinging. one thing that i didn't look into was whether sneak was broken on a mob miss or only on a mob hit.

In the past sneak has broken as long as they get "roll" on your character. Doesn't matter whether its a hit or a miss. My rogue has been brought out of sneak by an archer I left behind that is shooting at me and missing.

[jkm]

In the past sneak has broken as long as they get "roll" on your character. Doesn't matter whether its a hit or a miss. My rogue has been brought out of sneak by an archer I left behind that is shooting at me and missing.

well that would make sense as it is very very very difficult to get this off in the middle of combat because everything cleaves. i was with an intimitank in ritual and i couldn't get them off if i was anywhere within a 180 arc of him and i have sneak and assassinate hot keyed (push f then t).

[Jesen]

Dont change anything to Assassinate, it works fine.

I have been having an absolute blast playing my rogue lately, it takes a little patience and time to get used to it but assassinate is well balanced in my opinion.

Its meant to be a strike used when an opportunity presents itself, if your group is zerging then dont expect to use it alot, even then with some practice you can pull off some tricky assassinates :D When your systematically moving through an instance you can position yourself so that the big giant barbarian can pull all the mobs to him and you can take one out quickly then help with the rest of the mobs.

Dont expect to run through a quest like a Sorcerer with Finger of Death, rogues are all about being opportunists and finding the best way to contribute to a fight. Besides, if you do miss that assassinate all those enhancements you took for sneak attack damage and accuracy will make short work of any mob.

[Guildmaster_Kadish]

Besides, if you do miss that assassinate all those enhancements you took for sneak attack damage and accuracy will make short work of any mob.

That's exactly the point... with its current implementation, it is far quicker and easier (particularly against orthons and devils) to just kill the monster with normal sneak attacks.

If anything should be changed, it's what takes you out of sneak mode--there is no reason a cleaving orthon should take you out of sneak mode by missing you.

[Strakeln]

was running ritual sacrafice and that silly monk creakin was taking on an orthon and a devil. assassinated both in one swing.lol... must have more ki! (really... I just switched to light monk and had to play with a lot of things!). Tell me you didn't enjoy me leaving you trails of stunned things to kill though :p

That was a pretty slick double kill, indeed. I was suitably impressed :D

[Pyromaniac]

That's exactly the point... with its current implementation, it is far quicker and easier (particularly against orthons and devils) to just kill the monster with normal sneak attacks.

Hits the nail on the head. Way of the assasin 2 is not worth taking imo - my rogue can kill mobs just as fast without it. The 15 second timer, the great idea of having to be in stealth mode for it to work....pretty much killed the specialty for me. Tested it for 3 days, swapped it out as soon as I could.

[Aeneas]

I've been playing my pure rogue almost exclusively this past week - assassinate is the bee's knees.

My only qualm is that if i hit assassinate when out of sneak mode, or just after i get hit and knocked out of sneak mode, i still get put on the 15 second timer and get the message that i am in the wrong stance.

Also, i didn't notice a save hexagon over the monsters heads when they apparently made a save against my DC 31 kill shot. They just take damage and that's that.

Is there no save icon, or does this just not go off under certain situations?

Also, what is immune to it (aside from undead, constructs, and red/purple names)?

[Aeneas]

Hits the nail on the head. Way of the assasin 2 is not worth taking imo - my rogue can kill mobs just as fast without it. The 15 second timer, the great idea of having to be in stealth mode for it to work....pretty much killed the specialty for me. Tested it for 3 days, swapped it out as soon as I could.

That's not true at all. I was second in kills yesterday in a shroud run - never used a banisher or vorpal once. Only the FOD spec sorc beat me and it probably would have been a tie if not for the gnolls in part 4.

Orthons cleave seems to be on a timer as well, wait for the cleave then move in behind and murder them.

The only case where assassinate is not a good choice is for rogues who like to run in first and start pounding away immediately with little regard for aggro or damage to themself. It definitely requires a certain mindset and approach.

[query]

those charge rogues fit in your pocket nicely.


And yes, it simply takes practice practice practice to learn to hit in sneak well.


Never said it was easy.

But it is doable with training...gee, just like DDO :)


With all the monks..oh right, they mostly forget to sneak and zerg via Ki fear.

And look at my sig, that's the name of my monk who sneaks and attacks even without rogue levels and those deception items on. Yeah, my rogue based PC's do it too.

[ahpook]

Hits the nail on the head. Way of the assasin 2 is not worth taking imo - my rogue can kill mobs just as fast without it. The 15 second timer, the great idea of having to be in stealth mode for it to work....pretty much killed the specialty for me. Tested it for 3 days, swapped it out as soon as I could.

No offense but this is a good sign. WotA should not be for every rogue. If it was it would be too powerful. I myself haven't tried it because I am still enjoying WotTA.

[Pyromaniac]

That's not true at all. I was second in kills yesterday in a shroud run - never used a banisher or vorpal once....The only case where assassinate is not a good choice is for rogues who like to run in first and start pounding away immediately with little regard for aggro or damage to themself. It definitely requires a certain mindset and approach.

I've been first in kills in the shroud on my rogue before, without way of the assassin and not needing vorpals and banishers. It just depends on how bad the arcane casters play in your group and what you bring to the table.

Assuming everyone who doesn't like WotA2 doesn't know how to play a rogue.....suggests your level of expertise with the class.

[Talcyndl]

Hmm...I was about 95% on Orthons (both in the Vale and in Shroud). The only time I didn't kill them was when they saved, I never had problems with hitting them.

Weird that the OP did.

[Talcyndl]

I appreciate your thoughts. Does this make faster sneaker enhancements more desirable in your opinion?

Assuming you can afford it. :D

WotA II is REALLY expensive when you figure in all the prereqs.

[Aeneas]

Assuming everyone who doesn't like WotA2 doesn't know how to play a rogue.....suggests your level of expertise with the class.

I wasn't saying that running in for aggro was undesirable, i have one that does just that - intentionally.

In fact, any rogue that has a high bluff skill, diplo skill could and probably even should be doing just that instead of waiting for the rest of the group to get aggro on their own - send it to them instead of waiting for the dopey tanks to catch up and take it.

As for my level of expertise with the class, my main is a dwarven pure rogue that i rolled March 6, 2006. I post and try to contribute to this particular branch of the forums as often as possible and don't think anybody would say i'm a noob when it comes to rogues in DDO.

I'm sorry that you took somebody disagreeing with you so personally, try to remember this is a forum though, and people will disagree with you. Making a backhanded insult insinuating my ignorance in a public forum however makes you appear trollish, so try to keep that to PM's or better yet, to yourself.

My comment doesn't assume anything about anyone else, it simply states that you can't play an assassin rogue easily or very successfully if you play in that fashion. You'll get hit and lose stance or you will have the initial aggro and be ineligible for the maneuver at all. Stopping in the middle of a melee after a bluff/diplo and changing to sneak then assassinating can be very difficult due to time constraints and what's going around you and i can see why a rogue like that would dislike or have a hard time using WotA II. As i stated, it takes a certain approach.


Additionally, i like the OP's suggestion of doing away with the "wrong stance" error message and replacing it with the failed attempt 10d6 when not in sneak mode.

[kyebosh]

Yes sir, I like it.

Only change I would make (apart from not needing to be in sneak) is to make Sneak mode cancelled by hits, not misses!
It makes sense by the rules & by RP/common sense. Gives AC back a bit of importance too.

Devs, please consider :)

[Pyromaniac]

I'm sorry that you took somebody disagreeing with you so personally, try to remember this is a forum though, and people will disagree with you. Making a backhanded insult insinuating my ignorance in a public forum however makes you appear trollish, so try to keep that to PM's or better yet, to yourself.

I have no problem with someone disagreeing with me, most of the thread does. I question the comment that every rogue who doesn't like Way of the Assasin must be a charge in, don't care about aggro rogue. No need to keep my opinion to myself its a forum that would be pretty boring if everyone agreed.

[CSFurious]

dual-wield vorpal kukris & use assassinate

that is awesome

[kamimitsu]

Here are my testing results (lifted from my own post in another thread on a similar topic).


I just spent a few hours testing this in The Vale, Gianthold, and a few quests. My results assume that your one-shot kill is successful, and are as follows:

Target's friends far away (30ft or more)- no aggro
Target's friends between 10ft-30ft- search mode
Target's friends less than 10ft away- aggro (it's possible that there is a quick search and bumping, but appears almost instantaneous)

Now, here's the interesting part...
Target's friend is an archer less than 30ft away- instant shooting (which I believe means 'aggro'. Even if they missed the first few shots and I was moving, they kept me targeted and eventually hit me)
Target's friend can teleport and is less than 30ft away- teleport to your location, bump, aggro (nearly instantly).

The search mode for close creatures (15-20ft or so) is very difficult to evade successfully (I had Faster Sneaking II and 25% striding), unless there is a corner or other obstruction to get behind (and **** quickly). I may see about investing in Faster Sneaking III (or IV) to see if this helps, but I"ll have to wait another day or so.

Shiz


I have since taken Faster Sneaking III and IV and gotten 30% striders, and have found it does help in avoiding being "bumped" by searching monsters. However, their search pattern often seems to follow wherever I go (possibly due to a bonus to their LISTEN checks?). I'm actually OK with this, as it seems to fall in line with PnP and real-world situations. They only part I really have a problem wit this the archer's issue. Two identically raced monsters at equal distances should behave similarly, and even minor differences in Listen and Spot shouldn't allow the archer to "know" where I am any more than the melee "searching". I don't know how to best the mechanic for archers, but it seems a bit unfair (especially since archers seem to have no limit on their range, thus making escape neigh impossible).

As for the on-off nature of sneak mode, I've found a workable solution (at least for myself). When assassinating, I'm usually using dual puncturers (as the CON damage seems to go off BEFORE the assassinate should I strike a critical, and therefore makes the monster's FORT save lower). If the monster saves, or I somehow draw aggro before insta-death, I simply tumble away and switch to my preferred weapon set for whatever monster I'm facing. That is, when I'm soloing. If I'm in a party, and other members are nearby, that "diplo" button is just one key over.

[Aeneas]

Here are my testing results (lifted from my own post in another thread on a similar topic).




I have since taken Faster Sneaking III and IV and gotten 30% striders, and have found it does help in avoiding being "bumped" by searching monsters. However, their search pattern often seems to follow wherever I go (possibly due to a bonus to their LISTEN checks?). I'm actually OK with this, as it seems to fall in line with PnP and real-world situations. They only part I really have a problem wit this the archer's issue. Two identically raced monsters at equal distances should behave similarly, and even minor differences in Listen and Spot shouldn't allow the archer to "know" where I am any more than the melee "searching". I don't know how to best the mechanic for archers, but it seems a bit unfair (especially since archers seem to have no limit on their range, thus making escape neigh impossible).

As for the on-off nature of sneak mode, I've found a workable solution (at least for myself). When assassinating, I'm usually using dual puncturers (as the CON damage seems to go off BEFORE the assassinate should I strike a critical, and therefore makes the monster's FORT save lower). If the monster saves, or I somehow draw aggro before insta-death, I simply tumble away and switch to my preferred weapon set for whatever monster I'm facing. That is, when I'm soloing. If I'm in a party, and other members are nearby, that "diplo" button is just one key over.



My biggest problem with the archer aggro is that they will shoot in a different direction than you and the arrow magically changes it's path about a foot after leaving the bow or hand of the monster and arcs directly at you when they clearly don't know where you are.