TWF and Finesse

[Zinj]

How do these two feats stack? If I obtain finesse in single weapon type will I still be able to dual wield without a penalty?
In many settings an offhand weapon must be smaller than the primary, is that true for DDO? If I can't wield two large(long sword for example) without taking a penalty then can I choose to wield two short swords without taking a penalty? Does my weapon finesse apply for both my primary and my dual weapon?

Thank you in advance.

[DaveyCrockett]

Weapon Finesse has nothing to do with two-weapon fighting.
Weapon Finesse simply uses your DEX bonus to calculate your To-Hit instead of your STR Bonus (When using FINESSABLE weapons).
Oversized Weapons is a feat to not take the penalty for using large weapons in your off-hand.

[Angelus_dead]

If I obtain finesse in single weapon type will I still be able to dual wield without a penalty?
You can't get finesse in single kinds of weapons. You learn Finesse in general all at once. In the 3.0 version of D&D you could take finesse in a certain weapon, but that's been removed. Weapon Finesse is orthogonal to TWF.


In many settings an offhand weapon must be smaller than the primary, is that true for DDO?
You'll get another -2 penalty on attack rolls if your offhand weapon isn't small, unless you learn the OTWF feat.

[branmakmuffin]

Weapon Finesse has nothing to do with two-weapon fighting.
Weapon Finesse simply uses your DEX bonus to calculate your To-Hit instead of your STR Bonus (When using FINESSABLE weapons).
Oversized Weapons is a feat to not take the penalty for using large weapons in your off-hand.
You didn't answer his questions.

1. can I choose to wield two short swords without taking a penalty? Yes. As long as the off-hand weapon is light/small, you suffer the lesser penalty (-2/-2 if you have TWF, I believe), no matter what your primary hand weapon is.

2. Does my weapon finesse apply for both my primary and my dual weapon? Yes. Even if you are using a rapier in your off hand (the only "large" finesseable weapon), you still get your finesse bonus.

This is such an area of confusion for new players.

[Zinj]

Thank you. My question has been answered. Although, I do have a side question. What is the penalty to attack for using an oversized weapon in offhand? And, would I suffer a penalty to attack for both primary and offhand in doing so(how much in each)? If I understand correctly, I automatically have a -2 to both primary and offhand even with TWF.

[branmakmuffin]

Thank you. My question has been answered. Although, I do have a side question. What is the penalty to attack for using an oversized weapon in offhand? And, would I suffer a penalty to attack for both primary and offhand in doing so(how much in each)? If I understand correctly, I automatically have a -2 to both primary and offhand even with TWF.
I believe it works this way:

TWF and a "large" off-hand weapon is -4/-4 (even if your primary weapon is light). If you take the over-sized two-weapon feat, the penalty goes back to -2/-2 regardless of the size of your off-hand weapon. It's all based on the size of your off-hand weapon.

TWF and Finesse often go hand-in-hand, even if they are not technically connected. One area of congruence is that the list of "off-handable" weapons and the list of "finesseable" weapons are almost exactly the same (the rapier being the only exception I can think of).

[Zinj]

Awesome. Thank you again, question resolved.

[hydra_ex]

As summed up in table 8-10 of the 3.5 player's handbook:

Primary Hand Off Hand

Normal Penalties -6 -10
Off-Hand is Light -4 -8
TWF Feat -4 -4
TWF and -2 -2
Light Offhand

So using a bastard sword in your main hand, and a dagger in your offhand gives the same penalties as two daggers. The reason why characters are never seen doing this is because they either choose to weild two large weapons (Using OTWF) or use two finessable weapons (Using Weapon Finnesse) Improved TWF and Greater TWF only grant additional attacks with your offhand.

[branmakmuffin]

So using a bastard sword in your main hand, and a dagger in your offhand gives the same penalties as two daggers. The reason why characters are never seen doing this is because they either choose to weild two large weapons (Using OTWF) or use two finessable weapons (Using Weapon Finnesse) Improved TWF and Greater TWF only grant additional attacks with your offhand.
I think the reason you rarely see characters dual-wielding daggers is because daggers are relatively wimpy compared to other finesseable weapons (at least in PnP; in DDO when you tack on +5 holy of pure good, it really doesn't matter too much if it's a dagger or a kukri or a handaxe).

[hydra_ex]

I think the reason you rarely see characters dual-wielding daggers is because daggers are relatively wimpy compared to other finesseable weapons (at least in PnP; in DDO when you tack on +5 holy of pure good, it really doesn't matter too much if it's a dagger or a kukri or a handaxe).

Just giving an example for a weapon, just using daggers cuz their the epitome of wimpness (at least in pnp), whil bastard swords are on the opposite end of the spectrum.

[CSFurious]

but, daggers are easier to get & in the hands of a halfling rogue with maxed out guile & sneak attack can still be quite dangerous


I think the reason you rarely see characters dual-wielding daggers is because daggers are relatively wimpy compared to other finesseable weapons (at least in PnP; in DDO when you tack on +5 holy of pure good, it really doesn't matter too much if it's a dagger or a kukri or a handaxe).

[branmakmuffin]

but, daggers are easier to get & in the hands of a halfling rogue with maxed out guile & sneak attack can still be quite dangerous
I agree that daggers are probably easier to come by. It seems to me I see a fair amount of decent daggers on the AH (I haven't conducted a study, though, so my impression is probably just that: my impression). But if that is the case, perhaps people AH off their daggers because they perceive daggers as "wimpy" compared to martial finesseable weapons.

I dunno. Maybe I'm just talking out of my buttocks. But for a long time, one of my Halfling Ranger's main weapons was a +1 acid dagger of pure good that I got off the AH for a really low price.