Defintion of non-zerg

[branmakmuffin]

I saw an LFM to do a quest. The LFM specifically said "non-zerg." I sent the leader a tell asking them if they really meant non-zerg. They said yes, so I joined. We got into a big discussion about how we all hated players who rush on ahead, leaving others in the dust. We decided to do the slayer/rare/explorer area quests. Now, in the instance, everyone but me and one ran past an area that might have potentially had a rare encounter. I thought "Hmmm, this is not very non-zergy, particularly after we agreed we were going to do the rares." I continued on, reminding the party that we had agreed to do rares, and asked why everyone had ignored this potential rare. No response. We entered the quest on hard, without much discussion over whether everyone wanted to do it on hard, further cementing the truth, that this was a group zergers claiming to want to non-zerg.

Once inside, sure enough, they all (except for me and one other) zoomed on ahead. One player even remarked "Ho hum," I presume as he dealt with an encounter he'd dealt with dozens of times.

Funny thing is that the two players they left behind, me and the other one, were the clerics (and the rogue, as my character was a cleric/rogue).

[DelScorcho]

I support non zerg groups. It means the slow people won't be in my group.

[branmakmuffin]

I support non zerg groups. It means the slow people won't be in my group.
It also means power-gaming, zerging, loot-monkey twinks won't be in mine.

I win.

[Aranticus]

I saw an LFM to do a quest. The LFM specifically said "non-zerg." I sent the leader a tell asking them if they really meant non-zerg. They said yes, so I joined. We got into a big discussion about how we all hated players who rush on ahead, leaving others in the dust. We decided to do the slayer/rare/explorer area quests. Now, in the instance, everyone but me and one ran past an area that might have potentially had a rare encounter. I thought "Hmmm, this is not very non-zergy, particularly after we agreed we were going to do the rares." I continued on, reminding the party that we had agreed to do rares, and asked why everyone had ignored this potential rare. No response. We entered the quest on hard, without much discussion over whether everyone wanted to do it on hard, further cementing the truth, that this was a group zergers claiming to want to non-zerg.

Once inside, sure enough, they all (except for me and one other) zoomed on ahead. One player even remarked "Ho hum," I presume as he dealt with an encounter he'd dealt with dozens of times.

Funny thing is that the two players they left behind, me and the other one, were the clerics (and the rogue, as my character was a cleric/rogue).

zerg is relative, you run fast, party is not, party thinks you zerg. the party run fast, you do not, you are the slowbie, they are not the zergs ;)

[Aranticus]

It also means power-gaming, zerging, loot-monkey twinks won't be in mine.

I win.

no he wins, there are more people who hates running things slow than people not wanting zergs :eek:

[Korvek]

When I play with dedicated true non-zergers no one gets left behind. The definition of non-zerg to me is just that: no one gets left behind no matter how slow they are.

Does that mean that if everyone is zerging, no one is? :confused:

Also, zerging is often just a matter of efficiency to those who do zerg, though I can see the problem with mixed definitions of the word "Zerging," as it really doesn't have its own definition that applies everywhere, due to differences of perspective among players. For example, I would just define it as "quickly completing a quest without regard to non-essential objectives," whereas you put a negative connotation on it.

[herzkos]

think i gotta agree with bran here.
if the lfm says non-zerg, it kinda means we're going to take our time and move
as a group. If they don't take their time or are going too fast for you, just politely
ask "this is going faster than I thought it would, can we slow down some?" If you're
ignored or they say no way: then I'd recall and drop group.
I'd let the group know that the current questing style wasn't to my liking and
thus i'm dropping group.

If people don't want to quest with me or blacklist me, i'm fine with that because, frankly, all we're
going to do is get each other upset and that is not the point of the game :)

[Ron]

think i gotta agree with bran here.

Me too. Sounds like the LFM message was out of whack. Especially since he specifically asked before joining. Sorry you got a crappy PUG, Bran. This is exactly the reason why I won't PUG.

[arcticwolf666]

eaten by cube

QFT

except for the second part which I fixed for ya ;)

Fast runs are nice, different from zerging as stated above. The part I altered is the only reason really I hate running with zergers. Some are actually nice in waiting for heals and giving out information about the upcoming room they died in. Unfortunately, most zergers just get really mad because they left the cleric behind too far for heals. Most rarely carry any heal pots either. Either way, even some slow runners are beyond annoying to run with. A gamble people take when they join a group *shrug*

[LOUDRampart]

IMHO, the only time you will be in a "non-zerg" group is when the whole party is doing the quest for the first time. Once people know the quest, they begin to zerg it. Hence the reason why we need an intelligent dungeon random generator... something I this version of DnD online can't do.... but I can dream that a game will do it someday.

Ok, the other time you may be in a "non-zerg" party is if you are playing with a group of friends.... :D

[Korvek]

QFT

except for the second part which I fixed for ya ;)

Fast runs are nice, different from zerging as stated above. The part I altered is the only reason really I hate running with zergers. Some are actually nice in waiting for heals and giving out information about the upcoming room they died in. Unfortunately, most zergers just get really mad because they left the cleric behind too far for heals. Most rarely carry any heal pots either. Either way, even some slow runners are beyond annoying to run with. A gamble people take when they join a group *shrug*

Practiced zergers don't die. They are fully self-sufficient. There are zergers, and there are people that try to zerg and fail. The ones that die are the ones that fail to have properly prepared themselves and are not good zergers.

What you encountered were just poor players.

[vainangel]

zerg or no zerg, if the party is not in 100% agreement, something is wrong.

that is the bottom line.

If a PUG bothers you because they end up being Zerg-tasticly fast, then zone out, leave the party and that is it.
I do not Zerg, but some areas are just....well too easy [and in my head]. I will follow the law of the PUG, if I do not agree I leave. That is so very rare. Most players will listen becuase, like you, they just want to have fun while they play.

[branmakmuffin]

eaten by cube

I doubt I would. I'm a good player. But, I doubt it will ever happen. You're Thelanis and my only Thelanis character is a lowbie on a dedicated team.


Practiced zergers don't die. They are fully self-sufficient. There are zergers, and there are people that try to zerg and fail. The ones that die are the ones that fail to have properly prepared themselves and are not good zergers.
And they may have been excellent zerging players. It's not zerging itself that bugs me. If I know we're gonna zerg, I can either join and try it (I'm not the best zerger, 'cause I never practice doing it) or I can decline. I've asked people many times what pace they were gonna do a quest. When they say "fast" (which is most of the time, since most players play DDO like a video game rather than a role-playing game), I say "No thanks" and move on, usually to solo something. I solo a lot because that way I can do a quest at exactly the pace I want. I would prefer to do a quest with a group of compatible players, but I'd rather solo than go fast (I'm sure you will acknowledge that soloists need to be at least as self-sufficient as zergers).


If a PUG bothers you because they end up being Zerg-tasticly fast, then zone out, leave the party and that is it.
I do not Zerg, but some areas are just....well too easy [and in my head]. I will follow the law of the PUG, if I do not agree I leave. That is so very rare. Most players will listen becuase, like you, they just want to have fun while they play.
I did drop and when I explained why (specifically the ignoring of the possible rare after agreeing to do rares), the real leader (whom I think was the in-game party leader's husband of boyfriend) said "If you think skipping one rare is zerg, then I'm through with you." I knew it was pointless to point out to him again that we had agreed to do the rares, because he had already proved he was just going to rationalize away his decision.

[Vizzini]

/signed.

There is a big difference between non-zerg and a acceptable play pace, comparably to a lot of my friends I am non-zerg, but to others I sometimes seem the worst offender.

I would have to say if your saying non-zerg you can pretty much count out any Barbarians from your groups, by saying non-zerg your basically telling the Barbarian, don't play a Barbarian, play a sensible fighter.


I support non zerg groups. It means the slow people won't be in my group.

[debo]

non-zergers = noobs

I eat noobs.

[DoctorWhofan]

I have a level 9 sorcerer on Sarlona, but I'd rather play a cleric. Build another toon on Thelanis and shoot me a PM.

I think, Bran, while you are correct to be angry, your definition is off. That was a bunch of stupid people doing a fast party. They are not zergers.

[DoctorWhofan]

non-zergers = noobs

I eat noobs.

you don't wanna eat me, I'll give you gas and harden your arteries!:p

[Zaodon]

This thread is funny.

There are no such things as "zergs" unless you're playing StarCraft.

There are three types of DDO players:
1) Those who are experienced at DDO and know that, mathematically, doing a quest twice as fast as possible with no optionals grants far more Exp than doing it once, slowly, with all the optionals.
2) n00bs that don't know that yet, but eventually will.
3) Permadeathers and/or Roleplayers, who purposefully want to go slow in a quest.

Find a group of people that are in the same grouping above as you are, and play DDO with them.
To claim that other people's play style is "wrong" or "bad" is, IMHO, hilarious (and pointless).

[DoctorWhofan]

This thread is funny.

There are no such things as "zergs" unless you're playing StarCraft.

There are three types of DDO players:
1) Those who are experienced at DDO and know that, mathematically, doing a quest twice as fast as possible with no optionals grants far more Exp than doing it once, slowly, with all the optionals.
2) n00bs that don't know that yet, but eventually will.
3) Permadeathers and/or Roleplayers, who purposefully want to go slow in a quest.

Find a group of people that are in the same grouping above as you are, and play DDO with them.
To claim that other people's play style is "wrong" or "bad" is, IMHO, hilarious (and pointless).

You forgot one: The experienced people who stop to count butterflies!! WHich is me. And alot of other people.

[DoctorWhofan]

he did, and it was agreed to. Then they reneged on the deal. The title is misleading, cuz Bran doesn't know a zerg from a fast party. Doesn't get out much. He has a legimate complaint though.

[bobbryan2]

he did, and it was agreed to. Then they reneged on the deal. The title is misleading, cuz Bran doesn't know a zerg from a fast party. Doesn't get out much. He has a legimate complaint though.

Eh, it's not that legitimate of a complaint.

They were trying to advertise they wanted a slow group. But we all know there are degrees of slow, and obviously the party's slow was not his slow.

It was him that purposefully stayed behind; it was him who didn't follow the leader's lead; and it was him that ultimately was holding the party up and trying to take over leadership and do it his way even though it wasn't his group.

It was selfish play, and it has nothing to do with whether or not they were going slow or fast. I'm just glad the leader showed more class by not coming to the forums and complaining that some guy stayed behind and did every rare name on the way to the quest instead of staying with the party.

[Strakeln]

I support non zerg groups. It means the slow people won't be in my group.lol! /signed

[branmakmuffin]

he did, and it was agreed to. Then they reneged on the deal. The title is misleading, cuz Bran doesn't know a zerg from a fast party. Doesn't get out much. He has a legimate complaint though.
We could debate the meaning of "zerg" as well, I suppose. Some (including me) use it simply to mean "lightning fast loot/XP/favor runs." Others (apparently including you) use it to mean a specific type of fast quest running.

I'll make this clear again as I did in a post a long, long, time ago, in thread far, far away: I don't dislike zergers or zerging per se, I just don't want to do it.


Eh, it's not that legitimate of a complaint.

They were trying to advertise they wanted a slow group. But we all know there are degrees of slow, and obviously the party's slow was not his slow.
Dood, did you even read what I wrote? As a party, we agreed to do the rares, yet only me and one other guy stopped near a possible rare spawn location to check for the rare. This is like, oh, I don't know, you and I agreeing to stop and Burger King for some chow, then, when you get there, you just drive right on past with no word (and we both have fully charged cell phones and you know my number).

Also, they left my character and another character in the dust (which I mentioned in a previous post). I went back to get him at one point (which I hadn't mentioned before).

As for complaining on the forums, people do it to get some feedback about a given situation. I have left the details out of it. Members of the party will recognize the situation, assuming they get on the forums, but no one else will know who the others involved are.

My assumption is that, possibly, you already know who the offending others are and are coming to their defense.

[DoctorWhofan]

eaten by cube

Well, maybe. That might be true. Trying to get Bran to make a new toon on Thelanis, so I will know for myself. He IS a RPer, while not slow when they PuG, he may have done it so long that everybody else does a Flash, even me!

Personally, I'm a chest fanatic. If there is a possiblity of a chest and we can get to it without much damage, I'm in for it. Even when I'm favour running. 9 clerics, funding is always on the mind!:p

[moorewr]

Funny thing is that the two players they left behind, me and the other one, were the clerics (and the rogue, as my character was a cleric/rogue).

hijack!

I run a cleric/rogue I greatly enjoy* (although, woe is me, I keep being recruited as main healer in groups that have a rogue already). How do you like yours? What is your planned level split and how did you handle the skill points?

(*Pantalaimon, an elf, currently 7 cleric/ 2 rogue)

[DoctorWhofan]

Eh, it's not that legitimate of a complaint.

They were trying to advertise they wanted a slow group. But we all know there are degrees of slow, and obviously the party's slow was not his slow.

It was him that purposefully stayed behind; it was him who didn't follow the leader's lead; and it was him that ultimately was holding the party up and trying to take over leadership and do it his way even though it wasn't his group.

It was selfish play, and it has nothing to do with whether or not they were going slow or fast. I'm just glad the leader showed more class by not coming to the forums and complaining that some guy stayed behind and did every rare name on the way to the quest instead of staying with the party.

No according to him (agreed, the only and dubious point of view) the leader AGREED to the names, presumably on the way to the quest. Then skipped them. I dunno about the hard difficulty part. Until I see otherwise, I have to give Bran the benefit of the doubt.

I did correct him on what is a zerg (post #9) and what is generally accepted as the definition of a zerg. Again, you may be right, he may have gone so sloww that the party was being held up. Until I play with him, I have to go with the fact he is a RPer who rarely PuGs, and alot of misinterpitations and misunderstandings ensued.

[DoctorWhofan]

hijack!

I run a cleric/rogue I greatly enjoy* (although, woe is me, I keep being recruited as main healer in groups that have a rogue already). How do you like yours? What is your planned level split and how did you handle the skill points?

(*Pantalaimon, an elf, currently 7 cleric/ 2 rogue)

Tnannet is 8cleric/2 rogue. At end game he will be mighty, but boy do I miss the mana! However, it is nice to get doors and open chests and get a few if all the traps on your own.

I love evasion!

[branmakmuffin]

hijack!

I run a cleric/rogue I greatly enjoy* (although, woe is me, I keep being recruited as main healer in groups that have a rogue already). How do you like yours? What is your planned level split and how did you handle the skill points?
I guess it's at the experiment stage. I may nuke the character and have another bash at it (only second level). Most people seem to do cleric with a splash of rogue. Since I build my characters for RP, I don't worry too much about optimization. I was actually planning on doing rogue with a splash of cleric, though I'm sure most people would consider that gimped.

Edit: I also build characters with low-level soloing in mind, which means the builds are not necessarily optimal for higher level questing.

[moorewr]

Tnannet is 8cleric/2 rogue. At end game he will be mighty, but boy do I miss the mana! However, it is nice to get doors and open chests and get a few if all the traps on your own.

I love evasion!

We'll have to group sometime. Pantalaimon needs TS. :)

Edit -

I took Mental Toughness and Improved Mental Toughness, and I have a Power X trinket, so I have 625 mana. I think that's pretty good for seven Cleric levels. It's funny depending on scrolls for Raise Dead at level 9, but not crippling.

[branmakmuffin]

Evasion, yes I love Evasion, too. I wish there were a Feat tree to get to it. Edit: But then this will get me started on the whole classless thing (which is something I'd like to see in D&D in general).

[DoctorWhofan]

We'll have to group sometime. Pantalaimon needs TS. :)

Edit -

I took Mental Toughness and Improved Mental Toughness, and I have a Power X trinket, so I have 625 mana. I think that's pretty good for seven Cleric levels. It's funny depending on scrolls for Raise Dead at level 9, but not crippling.

Throw me a tell next time you are on. I need a tonne of funding so TS is always an option! I know about the raise dead scrolls too! He's strictly healing and self buffing. Don't have enough mana to buff the party. He was built because of that all cleric TS run and noone could open the doors!!!

No power X trinket. Best I have is the Crimson Gemstone, but have the mental toughness! It's odd to have more that 2 skill point, too!

[GeneralDiomedes]

to paraphrase george carlin, anyone going faster than you is a zerger, and anyone going slower than you is a noob

[S1gma]

to paraphrase george carlin, anyone going faster than you is a zerger, and anyone going slower than you is a noob

Awwwwwww, lookit this noob in fronta me!
ZZZzzzzzzzzzooooooooommmmmm.... Hay, lookit that zerger go!!!!

Hehehe RIP GC.

[Gunga]

The definition of non-zerg is suh-low.

[boldarblood]

QFT

except for the second part which I fixed for ya ;)

Fast runs are nice, different from zerging as stated above. The part I altered is the only reason really I hate running with zergers. Some are actually nice in waiting for heals and giving out information about the upcoming room they died in. Unfortunately, most zergers just get really mad because they left the cleric behind too far for heals. Most rarely carry any heal pots either. Either way, even some slow runners are beyond annoying to run with. A gamble people take when they join a group *shrug*

That's not a zerger. Thats a bad player trying to go fast.

Zerging is about efficiency and speed. Get the quest done as fast as possible, with as few as deaths as possilbe and move on to the next (to die is to waste time raising/healing).

[Ron]

All this time I've been playing this game wrong! Someone ought to have let me know sooner that this was a racing game :)

[moorewr]

All this time I've been playing this game wrong! Someone ought to have let me know sooner that this was a racing game :)

Ron wins the Internet!

[transtemporal]

It also means power-gaming, zerging, loot-monkey twinks won't be in mine.

I win.

Did someone say loot? :D

[branmakmuffin]

Zerging is about efficiency and speed. Get the quest done as fast as possible, with as few as deaths as possilbe and move on to the next (to die is to waste time raising/healing).
I did write once in some other thread a while ago that good zerging is a skill. Like RPers, there are good zergers and bad zergers. Or PvPers. Or anything.

It's not zerging per se that annoys me, it's being misled that annoys me.

[DoctorWhofan]

It also means power-gaming, zerging, loot-monkey twinks won't be in mine.

I win.

I had to go back to find where you said this.

Sadly Bran, you are right and wrong. Yes, you play the game they way you want with people who do the same, but you will never see and meet other people. The is one of the biggest issues playing with a select group, very select in your case. You have playing the game as long as me, on both servers I have been on, an never met me. Trust me, most of Thelanis knows me or know of me. While you accoplish your goals and level the way you want, you never see the "other side."

Have I zerged? yes. Fast play? yes. Slower than molasses in winter? yes. I have done it ALL, and usually within a week time frame. I know PuGging isn't everybody's thing, but it seems to me that you react like you have been bit by a copperhead, than finding other ways around it.

For example, When the group passed the potinal named, I would have spoken up and asked why. Or said, that I needed this named, whether or not I did. I would have asked everyone is hard ok? And reminded the party that I wasn't a full cleric. Or I may not getthe traps. What happened afterword to have you leave the party I dunno, but by asking, sometimes in funny or persistant ways, you might get an answer.

PuGs are funny. You have the potenial to get a zerger, an RPer, a pure guild player,a n00b, a new player, a casual player, a muppet and a PuGger in the same party. The results are chaos! Trust me, but if you don't believe me, ask anybody who has been through my TS runs. Rarely goes smoothly. But people still PuG. and PuG with me. Why? Because, I will not leave them behind, I am flexible with the entire party, and I am open minded enough to change in an instant.


And THAT is why PuGging is fun. It's hard, scary, fustrating, easy, exciting, and dull all at the same time! I you on't step out of your group once in a while, If you don't cut the tethers of comfort once in a while, you will not see and meet new people. Now, Bran, you are not the only one, but you are the one being vocal about it. National Geographic Channel can show you Luxor, or Valley ofthe Kings, but it cannot take you there. You have to be willing to step out, inbrace the local customs, and look at the world if it was new, and walk where untold Pharohs have been laid to rest.

Not everyone can do it, and I understand that. I am not sure you can. Hence my curiousity to play with you. You say such strange stuff that few people have any clue whatthe heck you are talking about, like you just emerged on the surface of the world last week. [eaten by cube, nom nom nom]

I am beyond anger. I am very, very curious about you Bran.

[totmacher]

<3 zerging

[branmakmuffin]

You have playing the game as long as me, on both servers I have been on, an never met me.
No, I was on Aundair from April to June '06. I started my 2-year hiatus before you even started playing the game (assuming your forum join date coincides with when you started playing the game). As for Thelanis, I made a version of one of my Sarlona characters there a couple weeks ago. He's only second level. I hardly play on Thelanis. All your Thelanis characters are at least, what, 10th level? Do you even play on Sarlona at all? My Aundair characters are on Khyber, and I never play them. I'm not trying to pick a fight, but we certainly have never had any opportunity to ever meet in the game. I know that's not exactly the point of your post, but it's true nonetheless.


For example, When the group passed the potinal named, I would have spoken up and asked why.
I did. And I said as much in an earlier post here. In the game, no response. Strike one (actually strike two; strike one was when I saw the leader, an L3, with a pure good weapon and another character, also an L3, dual wielding one pure good and one true chaos weapon).


But people still PuG. and PuG with me. Why? Because, I will not leave them behind, I am flexible with the entire party, and I am open minded enough to change in an instant.
Then we would get along quite well in a party.


I you on't step out of your group once in a while, If you don't cut the tethers of comfort once in a while, you will not see and meet new people. Now, Bran, you are not the only one, but you are the one being vocal about it.
You've seen the phrase, and its variations "Life's too short for bad Scotch/to drive Chevys/<whatever>?" Well, life's too short for bad PUGs. I don't play DDO to get quests done and level my character to 16 in a week, I play DDO to have enjoy DDO and hopefully do some RP (I know some people have fun leveling their characters in a week, but I can't fathom why or how).

[eaten by cube, nom nom nom]

[boldarblood]

You've seen the phrase, and its variations "Life's too short for bad Scotch/to drive Chevys/<whatever>?" Well, life's too short for bad PUGs. I don't play DDO to get quests done and level my character to 16 in a week, I play DDO to have enjoy DDO and hopefully do some RP (I know some people have fun leveling their characters in a week, but I can't fathom why or how).

Some people have leveled up so many toons to 16 and deleted more toons and got to 16 again. Alot of us have done the quests so many times, its more about getting to end game content with new characters in as quick as time as possible.. To each there own.

[branmakmuffin]

Some people have leveled up so many toons to 16 and deleted more toons and got to 16 again. Alot of us have done the quests so many times, its more about getting to end game content with new characters in as quick as time as possible.. To each there own.
And I understand what they like just as little as they understand what I like. DDO as video game just doesn't appeal to me.

[DoctorWhofan]

No, I was on Aundair from April to June '06. I started my 2-year hiatus before you even started playing the game (assuming your forum join date coincides with when you started playing the game). As for Thelanis, I made a version of one of my Sarlona characters there a couple weeks ago. He's only second level. I hardly play on Thelanis. All your Thelanis characters are at least, what, 10th level? Do you even play on Sarlona at all? My Aundair characters are on Khyber, and I never play them. I'm not trying to pick a fight, but we certainly have never had any opportunity to ever meet in the game. I know that's not exactly the point of your post, but it's true nonetheless.


I did. And I said as much in an earlier post here. In the game, no response. Strike one (actually strike two; strike one was when I saw the leader, an L3, with a pure good weapon and another character, also an L3, dual wielding one pure good and one true chaos weapon).


Then we would get along quite well in a party.


You've seen the phrase, and its variations "Life's too short for bad Scotch/to drive Chevys/<whatever>?" Well, life's too short for bad PUGs. I don't play DDO to get quests done and level my character to 16 in a week, I play DDO to have enjoy DDO and hopefully do some RP (I know some people have fun leveling their characters in a week, but I can't fathom why or how).


[eaten by cube, nom nom nom]

I have characters from 1 to 16. I am a casual player. No my date does not concide with my start of play. I joined April, 2006.


Here's the list:

Trissa-cleric 16, drow, first drow I made the first day they came out, my second cleric ever and now my main. 1750
Kleo-sorcerer 15, human, 28 pt. 1750
Sousake-Paladin 15, human, 28 pt.
thetenth- cleric 15, human, 32 pt. 1750
Lanarissa-cleric 13, human,28 pt. 1750
Scully-cleric 12, human, 32 pt.
Mulder-Paladin 12, elf, 32 pt.
Kaname-Rogue 10/Ranger 1, elf, 28 pt.
Tnannet-cleric 8/rogue 2, drow
Doomlord-ranger 10 MULE, drow
Roselyn- cleric 9, human, 32 pt.
Oncoming- Wizard 8, human, 28 pt.
Caboose-fighter 5/paladin 3, human, 32 pt.
Courwin-bard 7 (healing spellsinger), drow
Healbotatron-cleric 5/sorcerer 1, Warforged, 32 pt.
Jennysmith-monk 5, human 32 pt.
Allura- cleric 4, human, 28 pt.
Keatheran-ranger 2, elf, 32 pt.
Riversong-cleric 1, dwarf, 32 pt.

Not to mention all the deleted characters. So yeah, I might know what I'm talking about sometimes. And I know ALOT about being a cleric. Yes, I have two accounts.

As for you talking like an expert. I'm sorry Bran, you do come accross as snooty at times. Like the split shrine thing-ee. I play ALOT of clerics and do ALOT of healing over the last two years, so I think I might have an inkling about clerics and shrines. The way you say some things sounds arrogant and inflexible.

And as for the rest of the crowd, I try to treat the forums like a giant PuG: some good, some bad, some friends, some vets, some zergers, some casual, some permadeath, some RPers, some uber elitests, some Muppets, some N00bs, some new, and so on. And There is the great Quest called GETTING SOMETHING ACCOMPLISHED on the forums and we all have to complete it. Some of us will not get along ever, others work well together. Everybody has ways and means to do that, but at the end of the day, it's kinda like us vs. Turbine (in a nice way, really! Not the "I hate the government" kind of way:p ) andthe end reward is we get things fixed, we were heard, or we get things changed for the better.

There is alot of good guys on the forums, and most don't play the game like I do. And many don't see things the way I do, too. However we agree to disagree and move on. Strangely I get along with most people here.

[branmakmuffin]

Strangely I get along with most people here.
Strangely, I get along with most people IRL.

On the 'net, many people feel free to release their inner bully. I don't like bullies, IRL or on the 'net.

[dixcyn04]

You know, I am REALLY, intrested in playing the game with you Bran. I am known for my high tolerance level. Few people have exceeded it. I wonder if you would.

Does this mean my little ranger/rogue didn't annoy you there Queen of TS??
Last I recall, you AND the Mrs. ganged up on me about how frustrating I can be with my dying and total disregard for my health as I waged war with my dueling SS's :P That was until I realized I should wait for someone else to get aggro.

J/k

-Zhrakkan/Linmei

[DoctorWhofan]

Does this mean my little ranger/rogue didn't annoy you there Queen of TS??
Last I recall, you AND the Mrs. ganged up on me about how frustrating I can be with my dying and total disregard for my health as I waged war with my dueling SS's :P That was until I realized I should wait for someone else to get aggro.

J/k

-Zhrakkan/Linmei

...It's GODDESS. you don't wanna upset me again! :D:p;)

[DelScorcho]

Strangely, I get along with most people IRL.



screenshot or it didn't happen

[vainangel]

screenshot or it didn't happen

rofl X10

[Xyfiel]

Definition of non-zerg:
If you stop mid quest to use the restroom, smoke, get food, answer door/phone, etc..
If you read/posted when you could have been zerging.
If you typed anything in any chat.
If you stopped for loot.
If you buffed(unless you have mobile spellcasting/quicken or bard song).
If you waited on anyone.

[twoton]

It also means power-gaming, zerging, loot-monkey twinks won't be in mine.

I win.

Can I use half of your quote in my sig :)

[branmakmuffin]

screenshot or it didn't happen
Dude, if you want your screen shot, do it yourself.


Can I use half of your quote in my sig :)
What the "I win" part?

Assuming you're not just messing about, go ahead.

[dixcyn04]

...It's GODDESS. you don't wanna upset me again! :D:p;)


- roll Cower/Grovel Properly Check - 1d20 : 8
- You fail to cower correctly.

So sorry GODDESS :P

Anyways, we've kinda moved to Sarlona. Long story, but the ultimate short of it was dead guild. However, I am totally supporting you on the best cleric for TS. And the guy is wrong. Fast parties and zerging are two different things. If I know a quest really well, even if I decide to do optionals, I can go through it fast. Though to some who come along and either are 1) new or 2) RPer's... they think I am zerging. You've run with me and the Mrs. We don't zerg (well, she doesnt and I do only on occassion). Fast is not the same. Seems Bran got a bum deal and leader who backed out of his agreement. But at the same time, Bran needs to know the difference. And being an ex-RP'er on DDO, the play style of a fast party (esp if they are skipping optionals) would seem like zerging.

[branmakmuffin]

me and the Mrs. We don't zerg (well, she doesnt and I do only on occassion). Fast is not the same. Seems Bran got a bum deal and leader who backed out of his agreement. But at the same time, Bran needs to know the difference. And being an ex-RP'er on DDO, the play style of a fast party (esp if they are skipping optionals) would seem like zerging.
We could exhaust a week debating what "zerg" means, like we could "twink," "power gamer" and "min-maxer."

When I see an LFM that says "non-zerg," the thing that springs to my mind is not "Well, they're not gonna zerg, but maybe they're gonna rush."

To me, zerging means "effective and efficient rushing." You can't zerg without going fast, even if you can go fast without zerging. So if someone puts up an LFM that says "non-zerg," one thing they don't mean is "ineffective and inefficient rushing" by virtue of not knowing what "zerg" means.

[toughguyjoe]

Man, i read this whole thread. got sucked in like a fat girl watching oprah.

Anyway. Theres something to this. i don't use the forums very well, so i'm not familiar with how to do the multiple quotes things there, but i saw up there that Bran was suspicious and put off by these gentlemens equipment. They were level three, and happened to have Pure good/True chaos weapons or some such.

I think someone who talks about jumping to conclusions whould try to be a little more fair minded when it comes to their gear. its totally possible to pull +1 pure good anything from low level end rewards. i've run enough lowbies to see them drop in the harbor on numerous occasions.

As for style of play, i try and play my own way. fast when i know where i am going and what to expect, slow and cautious when its too heavy for the current toon i'm on. whatever. its just a vbideo game. and for clarification:

THIS IS NOT DND!

Not even close. thousand point cone of cold? play it as ddo, its more fun that way.

[branmakmuffin]

I think someone who talks about jumping to conclusions whould try to be a little more fair minded when it comes to their gear. its totally possible to pull +1 pure good anything from low level end rewards. i've run enough lowbies to see them drop in the harbor on numerous occasions.
Yeah, two Harbor newbs, and between them they legitimately pulled 2 PGs and 1 true chaos.

Gotcha.

I've never pulled anything better than a Muckbane from a newb Harbor quest (the WW end reward aside).

I'm not saying I'm opposed to people twinking, just that it should have told me something about their playstyle. I'm annoyed with myself for not paying attention to the signs.

[DoctorWhofan]

eaten by cube

Goddess of Tempest's Spine!! Geesh!

[DoctorWhofan]

- roll Cower/Grovel Properly Check - 1d20 : 8
- You fail to cower correctly.

So sorry GODDESS :P

Anyways, we've kinda moved to Sarlona. Long story, but the ultimate short of it was dead guild. However, I am totally supporting you on the best cleric for TS. And the guy is wrong. Fast parties and zerging are two different things. If I know a quest really well, even if I decide to do optionals, I can go through it fast. Though to some who come along and either are 1) new or 2) RPer's... they think I am zerging. You've run with me and the Mrs. We don't zerg (well, she doesnt and I do only on occassion). Fast is not the same. Seems Bran got a bum deal and leader who backed out of his agreement. But at the same time, Bran needs to know the difference. And being an ex-RP'er on DDO, the play style of a fast party (esp if they are skipping optionals) would seem like zerging.

I know, that's what I havebeen saying. right on he was wronged, and wrong on definition.

[DoctorWhofan]

We could exhaust a week debating what "zerg" means, like we could "twink," "power gamer" and "min-maxer."

When I see an LFM that says "non-zerg," the thing that springs to my mind is not "Well, they're not gonna zerg, but maybe they're gonna rush."

To me, zerging means "effective and efficient rushing." You can't zerg without going fast, even if you can go fast without zerging. So if someone puts up an LFM that says "non-zerg," one thing they don't mean is "ineffective and inefficient rushing" by virtue of not knowing what "zerg" means.

Actually, my definition IS correct. Zerging is from the Starcraft game. A race I think. What it means in DDO and most MMOs is that they are more concerned for XP per second than anything else. If they could run to theend and finish the quest, without killing anything, that is fine by them. And Explorers is right out. ANYTHING ELSE is a FAST party. FAST means they may skip SOME of the optionals, and not do all theexplorer area, BUT THEY DO IT.

I think there is a thread thatthis was hashed out, and most, if not all the people on the forums agreed thatthis was the definition of a zerger. Going against it is like saying black is white.

And you know what happens at the zebra crossing!:p

[dixcyn04]

Anyways, Bran....

Zerging is universally defined as XP/min (around the 200 mark if you are really good) on DDO and most other MMOs.
Fast Parties might do a few optionals or seek out named in a quest... which a zerger wont do. Idea is as many quests as possible...vs just
completing quickly.

The difference can be slight to astronomical depending on the quest you are running.

A quick example for me to use is Low Road. Zerging it you just haul butt past everything. Pull levers, etc. No killing.
My fast group ran through, split up and did everything, including kills.

Zerger finishes it in like 2 min. We did it in like 4. Just showing a easy example of the difference.

[branmakmuffin]

Anyways, Bran....

Zerging is universally defined as XP/min
Am I the only one here who knows the meaning of "efficient?"

[DoctorWhofan]

Oh, I may be going out on a limb, here, but I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I think we are not currently on a Tempest Spine raid.

And whether anyone is insulting, arrogant, pushy or spoiled is a matter of opinion.

Am I the only one here who knows the meaning of "efficient?"

no, but everyone but you understands the word "zerging"


As forthe Tempest's Spine thing-ee, oh never mind.

[branmakmuffin]

no, but everyone but you understands the word "zerging"
Wrong. "Zerging" means "efficient" and "fast." Saying "XP/minute" is just another way of saying "efficient." How else are you going to measure efficiency? I suppose you could measure it in "favor/minute" or "plat/minute." But in any case, "zerging" means "fast" and "efficient." If you think I don't understand that, you are, in a word, wrong.

[splish splash splish]

[Aranticus]

to expand on the zerg mentality, one who plays starcraft will know the zerg tactic which is to spawn zerglings with all resources and eggs, move them to enemy base, decimate base. there are a few thing here to learn

1. no resources are wasted
2. its an all out attack
3. no side objectives are accomplished
4. objective is to kill the enemey base before they can start building

how does this compare to ddo
1. the more objectives that are not needed is completed, the more resources is used
2. completing side objectives means a longer time to get to completion of quest
3. the less time to get to the end, the more time can be spent looting/xp it again

note: we pay homage to the good zergs, they are recognised as the best players. the bad zergs? we call them leeroy :D

[DoctorWhofan]

Wrong. "Zerging" means "efficient" and "fast." Saying "XP/minute" is just another way of saying "efficient." How else are you going to measure efficiency? I suppose you could measure it in "favor/minute" or "plat/minute." But in any case, "zerging" means "fast" and "efficient." If you think I don't understand that, you are, in a word, wrong.



Actually, you are wrong. Play Starcraft. Sorry, you are on this. Trust me, I busted on this awhile back. When someone explained it to me, then I understood. And ate my humble pie. And apologised. That's flexiblity.

[branmakmuffin]

Actually, you are wrong. Play Starcraft.
Whatever "zerg" means in Starcraft, this is not Starcraft.

You will have to explain how "zerg" means , in DDO, "XP/minute" and yet does not also mean "fast and efficient."

[DoctorWhofan]

Whatever "zerg" means in Starcraft, this is not Starcraft.

You will have to explain how "zerg" means , in DDO, "XP/minute" and yet does not also mean "fast and efficient."

Yes, but FAST parties are only fast and effcient. XP/minute doesn't enter into it.

Zerging is part of Starcraft. Then why are you using it in a MMO, then? Bypass it and say rushing, which is almost the same meaning.

[branmakmuffin]

Yes, but FAST parties are only fast and effcient. XP/minute doesn't enter into it.
XP/minute implies not wasting time doing stuff that does not maximize XP. "Not wasting" is pretty much the definition of efficient.


Bypass it and say rushing, which is almost the same meaning.
Zerging implies rushing (or rushing as fast as possible while still maintaining the efficiency required for zerging), rushing does not necessarily imply zerging.

[Zaodon]

The official, universal definition of "Zerg" in DDO is as follows:

"Completing a quest as fast as physically possible, avoiding, bypassing or ignoring absolutely every single fight, optional objective and physical barrier possible, while under the effect of the Haste spell for as much of the time as caster mana/pots allow."

Carry on.

[branmakmuffin]

The official, universal definition of "Zerg" in DDO is as follows:

"Completing a quest as fast as physically possible, avoiding, bypassing or ignoring absolutely every single fight, optional objective and physical barrier possible, while under the effect of the Haste spell for as much of the time as caster mana/pots allow."

Carry on.
Gosh, that sounds like "fast and efficient" to me.

[The_Mighty_Cube]

*slurp*

Now let's try this discussion without the personal attacks, shall we? Otherwise the next time I come in here, I'm going to have a belly full of forum posters to digest, and it won't be pretty.

[toughguyjoe]

*slurp*

Now let's try this discussion without the personal attacks, shall we? Otherwise the next time I come in here, I'm going to have a belly full of forum posters to digest, and it won't be pretty.

I was wondering when the Cube would rear its beautiful green shaky mass.

I think, the point that is not taken into consideration here is that a "zerg" "rush" "totallyuberfast" group of players is in fact that. VERY FAST.

Their efficiency, is not taken into account. Its hard to get major mana pots. and if your cleric and caster are drinking them like six packs of soda, you're being the opposite of efficient, you're using resources to make things take less time.

Managing your time, but using your resources. in the end i guess they want a good (time+resources spent)/(rewards collected/experience recieved) equation.

I suppose the idea there is that the more you do, the more end rewards you pull, and the better chance you have at pulling an item that makes up a huge amount of ground on your resources spent.

Some people want other things. the problem for players who dislike this play style is that there are in my oppinion far more people that enjoy this play style, making PuGs a bad choice for these players. I don't think the group in the original post was trying to be misleading, they just didn't expect the player that joined their group to be the kind of player he was. It was really a fault of the PuGs not understanding the persons play style. and also their lack of communication. communication is key to a party.

Alright. officially done with this. Bran and DroWhofan should get together and play together. see if they can work together :D

[DoctorWhofan]

I was wondering when the Cube would rear its beautiful green shaky mass.

I think, the point that is not taken into consideration here is that a "zerg" "rush" "totallyuberfast" group of players is in fact that. VERY FAST.

Their efficiency, is not taken into account. Its hard to get major mana pots. and if your cleric and caster are drinking them like six packs of soda, you're being the opposite of efficient, you're using resources to make things take less time.

Managing your time, but using your resources. in the end i guess they want a good (time+resources spent)/(rewards collected/experience recieved) equation.

I suppose the idea there is that the more you do, the more end rewards you pull, and the better chance you have at pulling an item that makes up a huge amount of ground on your resources spent.

Some people want other things. the problem for players who dislike this play style is that there are in my oppinion far more people that enjoy this play style, making PuGs a bad choice for these players. I don't think the group in the original post was trying to be misleading, they just didn't expect the player that joined their group to be the kind of player he was. It was really a fault of the PuGs not understanding the persons play style. and also their lack of communication. communication is key to a party.

Alright. officially done with this. Bran and DroWhofan should get together and play together. see if they can work together :D

THe ball is in his court. Stay tuned!:D

[query]

if I said I'm right, you're wrong, and since you didn't pay attention to the facts (the way *I LISTED THEM* no matter what other people replied,) that means you are a [insert mean phrase not actually making one for Cube reasons], don't you think I'd be consitered GRATING?


Heckaroony, I've been the type-A personality many a post on the forum. And I'm also strong enough to say two phrases many people can't say ANYWHERE: "I don't know." "I'm wrong."

Look, I think it's beeh shown in the DDO community here fast is not Zerg. NEITHER is effiicient, EVEN if you find efficient zergers. I think it simply means using the largest group of people you can make going as fast as you can, while hasted running through ANYTHING you can instead of doing.


THAT last part is where you throw efficiency out the window. People rightly or wrongly decide to do number of quests ASAP over and over again for the "most" XP. Not even factoring the loss of XP per additional run, there are optionals that take mere seconds that add up to MUCH MORE xp/min (using a key and breaking 20 crates comes to mind, heck, taking that 1/2 sec and breaking a box while running by it which if all breakables were done gets you HUNDREDS of XP per quest,) than simply going zoooooooooooom!


People hate me if/when I'm right on this, so they simply say they don't Zerg this as a group (see how easy it is when you hide behind a collective?)



SO, state it is your opion, or you think before anybody uses instead the fact or ultimate definition. That's as dumb as posting something you researched on Risa and calling yourself the definitive authority even after changes have been made going live, and you not even detailing your first postings, let alone the updates since then.


Bran, Who, etc, this appies to ALL of you, me included.


Now, I'm a RPer too. I like looking at butterflies and wonder why my barbarian can't seem to eat them, my wizard can't polymorph them, or that evil one...well, he wonders what keeps the wings on the bodies?

Seriously, we all have preferred styles and we need to discuss what those styles mean when we are in a group. Better than just saying x or no x. Ask what do you MEAN by x. Both sides assumed and you know what that does. Maybe they mean the rares the GROUP needed, or even shelfishly only THEY (couple) meant. Seemed perfectly reasonable in their own head. As it did yours.


But all of this **** can be simply resolved by NOT using that word. Not going N-word here, but simply being more descriptive.

Try having people list or confirm meaning, "not running fast" or "staying with all the group" or "staying with all the group even the new/slow ones." etc.


That way we don't lump our assumptions with our titles in the LFM.


Darnit, I want to be part of this group too! So we got Bran, DrWho and Query. Who else is joining on Thelanis (or is it Sarlona?)

[DoctorWhofan]

if I said I'm right, you're wrong, and since you didn't pay attention to the facts (the way *I LISTED THEM* no matter what other people replied,) that means you are a [insert mean phrase not actually making one for Cube reasons], don't you think I'd be consitered GRATING?


Heckaroony, I've been the type-A personality many a post on the forum. And I'm also strong enough to say two phrases many people can't say ANYWHERE: "I don't know." "I'm wrong."

Look, I think it's beeh shown in the DDO community here fast is not Zerg. NEITHER is effiicient, EVEN if you find efficient zergers. I think it simply means using the largest group of people you can make going as fast as you can, while hasted running through ANYTHING you can instead of doing.


THAT last part is where you throw efficiency out the window. People rightly or wrongly decide to do number of quests ASAP over and over again for the "most" XP. Not even factoring the loss of XP per additional run, there are optionals that take mere seconds that add up to MUCH MORE xp/min (using a key and breaking 20 crates comes to mind, heck, taking that 1/2 sec and breaking a box while running by it which if all breakables were done gets you HUNDREDS of XP per quest,) than simply going zoooooooooooom!


People hate me if/when I'm right on this, so they simply say they don't Zerg this as a group (see how easy it is when you hide behind a collective?)



SO, state it is your opion, or you think before anybody uses instead the fact or ultimate definition. That's as dumb as posting something you researched on Risa and calling yourself the definitive authority even after changes have been made going live, and you not even detailing your first postings, let alone the updates since then.


Bran, Who, etc, this appies to ALL of you, me included.


Now, I'm a RPer too. I like looking at butterflies and wonder why my barbarian can't seem to eat them, my wizard can't polymorph them, or that evil one...well, he wonders what keeps the wings on the bodies?

Seriously, we all have preferred styles and we need to discuss what those styles mean when we are in a group. Better than just saying x or no x. Ask what do you MEAN by x. Both sides assumed and you know what that does. Maybe they mean the rares the GROUP needed, or even shelfishly only THEY (couple) meant. Seemed perfectly reasonable in their own head. As it did yours.


But all of this **** can be simply resolved by NOT using that word. Not going N-word here, but simply being more descriptive.

Try having people list or confirm meaning, "not running fast" or "staying with all the group" or "staying with all the group even the new/slow ones." etc.


That way we don't lump our assumptions with our titles in the LFM.


Darnit, I want to be part of this group too! So we got Bran, DrWho and Query. Who else is joining on Thelanis (or is it Sarlona?)

That is for Bran to decide. Waiting impatiently for the answer. I guess, Bran, alot of people are curious about you.

[branmakmuffin]

That is for Bran to decide. Waiting impatiently for the answer.
Impatiently?


I guess, Bran, alot of people are curious about you.
Oh, for the love of Pete, why?

[query]

To be honest (stop now!)

I do like (for the love of any god you think may be there, DON'T GO ON!)

I like having Branmuffins frequently.


*Dodges thrown debris to the shouts of (I TOOOOLD YOU SO!)*

[ShaeNightbird]

Fascinating. Take me too, then. If you dare.

[Thrudh]

Me too. Sounds like the LFM message was out of whack. Especially since he specifically asked before joining. Sorry you got a crappy PUG, Bran. This is exactly the reason why I won't PUG.

Heh, so you do also never fly in a plane, because every once in a very great while they crash?

Some traveler: Man, did you hear about that plane that crashed?

Ron: Yeah, that's exactly the reason why I won't fly a plane

Some traveler: Umm... but 99.9% of all flights have no problems...

Ron: Doesn't matter... I don't want to deal with any chance at all I might get a crappy PUG, er, crash in a plane.

:) :)

[query]

See this thread http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=152456 :D

[DoctorWhofan]

Fascinating. Take me too, then. If you dare.

Another one Bran. People are curious! Level ones whatever server.




Heh, so you do also never fly in a plane, because every once in a very great while they crash?

Some traveler: Man, did you hear about that plane that crashed?

Ron: Yeah, that's exactly the reason why I won't fly a plane

Some traveler: Umm... but 99.9% of all flights have no problems...

Ron: Doesn't matter... I don't want to deal with any chance at all I might get a crappy PUG, er, crash in a plane.

:) :)


Well PuGs DO crash more frequently than planes, but if you have a fully licenced PuG person, they can pull the nose up out of a bad PuG and land it safely.

[branmakmuffin]

[And to Prove I Can Zerg very, very well] See this thread http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=152456 :D
Anyone who claims to be a good zerger needs prove nothing to me. I'll take your word for it.

Look at me,
I'm as helpless
As a kitten
Up a tree

[Talon_Moonshadow]

If you don't want to zerg, play a Cleric......they will wait for you eventually....one way or another.


Some might wait by choice when they are low in HP.
Others will wait regardless of choice for you to raise them.

[branmakmuffin]

If you don't want to zerg, play a Cleric.
Well, now, that's not necessarily a very attractive option, is it?

And, FYI, in the group that prompted me to start all this nonsense, I was a Cleric (and a Rogue).

[totmacher]

funny that zerging and clericing are mentioned, I zerg best on my cleric. the ability to pull stuff, be able to Heal yourself with quicken on and quicken maximized empowered blade barrier is one of the easiest ways to get through a quest!

and I still consider myself a healbot!

/zerg all day
//zerg all night

[DoctorWhofan]

funny that zerging and clericing are mentioned, I zerg best on my cleric. the ability to pull stuff, be able to Heal yourself with quicken on and quicken maximized empowered blade barrier is one of the easiest ways to get through a quest!

and I still consider myself a healbot!

/zerg all day
//zerg all night

you are a zerging healbot. Isn't that condirdiction in terms?:D

[stabbert]

We could debate the meaning of "zerg" as well, I suppose. Some (including me) use it simply to mean "lightning fast loot/XP/favor runs." Others (apparently including you) use it to mean a specific type of fast quest running.

I'll make this clear again as I did in a post a long, long, time ago, in thread far, far away: I don't dislike zergers or zerging per se, I just don't want to do it.


Dood, did you even read what I wrote? As a party, we agreed to do the rares, yet only me and one other guy stopped near a possible rare spawn location to check for the rare. This is like, oh, I don't know, you and I agreeing to stop and Burger King for some chow, then, when you get there, you just drive right on past with no word (and we both have fully charged cell phones and you know my number).

Also, they left my character and another character in the dust (which I mentioned in a previous post). I went back to get him at one point (which I hadn't mentioned before).

As for complaining on the forums, people do it to get some feedback about a given situation. I have left the details out of it. Members of the party will recognize the situation, assuming they get on the forums, but no one else will know who the others involved are.

My assumption is that, possibly, you already know who the offending others are and are coming to their defense.

I have to agree with Bran here, if it was mutually agreed that it was a slow (as in NOT ZERG!) group and doing rares
(as in NOT SKIPPING RARES!) and they did just exactly the opposite then yeah, he has a right to be aggravated.

Seems to me the group leader just wanted to get a quest done and possibly purposely used the LFM to mislead
gamers such as bran to take things slow to just join so they could get said quest done and out of the way
in the hopes that if after the fact the agenda emerges they will just say "bah screw it im already here I might as well stay.."

The leader should have been at least considerate enough to say "Guys we are gonna speed run this instead, anyone have a problem?"
Having said that maybe Bran would have juist said oh well, sure, ill stay even though I dont really want to speed run this.
and nothing would have become of it.

But because the leader silently decided to backpedal and reneg on his original plan without discussing it with his party, he
turned a win-win outcome to a lose-lose outcome.

And how was bran being selfish with wanting to run a quest at the speed that was initially agreed upon?
He was upholding his end of the bargain wasnt he by staying true to what was originally assumed to be a slower ran pace.

Oh and slow is slow, and fast is fast (also known as ZERG)...
There is no grey area, and speeds arent supposed to be left up to interpretation.
If it is expected to be a slow paced run with rares and optionals, stay true to that.
You shortchange your party members by deciding to change things without letting them know first.
I mean we have chat and voice chat for petes sake, use these communication tools people!

As for the group leader saying what he said because bran asked why they missed a rare, well the group leader
was being a jerk and was out of line for saying that to Bran.

Food for thought guys.



-Stabbert