repeater builds

[avatar28]

just wanted to open the discussion on the benefits of using exclusively repeaters.

I had a ranger who is retired now, and i've leveled him up to 13. I tried alot of different methods with him; tempest with dual stat damagers,dps; i've also switched back and forth from manyshot to repeaters. I basically swaped out melee feats for ranged, and collected a nice set of heavy repeaters. I've had mutiple discussion with people who say repeaters are good at low levels, but lack any real dps capabilities at higher-end game content. I, however found using a +3 holy repeater of pure good with flame bolts - combined with rapid shot,rapid reload,improved precise shot,and 32 dexterity, meant i was dishing out copious amounts of damage from a stationary position. I was even drawing aggro away from intimi-tanks and barbs alike, and I actually found that I would come close to, or beat out other characters for kill count. I assure you the other toons were using good equipment, but I was even more amazed to see a sea of red numbers floating from the mobs i was hitting. pierce+holy+fire+good... and shooting 3 bolts to a melee'rs 1 swing meant 12 crimson numbers. Oh.. I also forgot to mention improved crit: piercing, which meant I crit 20 % of the time, or roughly 1 out of 5 shots. My puncturing,transmuting,paralyzing and weakening repeaters seemed to absolutely help mobs die faster - situationally, or at least help party to kill trash mobs quickly when I chose to play a more defensive roll.

Ultimately I want to open the floor to repeater builds to share your love for this most uber weapon. Even great x-bow users with the right set up feel free to chime in your exploits.

[Pallol_One-Eye]

My 16 Tank is not a dedicated repeater build per se, but has a rather nice collection to use. Although many are indeed situational, some just make questing a breeze. Ran Coal Chamber elite for favor about 2 weeks ago. My fighter had 235 kills with a repeating Banisher.

I also have improved crit to make the weapon worthwile. I have the aformentionaed Banisher, a Disruptor which makes running in the Necropolis fun, a Para, a Smiter, several high end DPS repeaters as well as a w/p which I pull out on "special occasions". I'm not sure how a repeater stacks up against a Ranger with manyshot, but I can tell you that a +4 shocking burst heavy repeater of PG combined with silver bolts will lay the lumber in part 5 of the Shroud.(averaging 80+ points per crit per bolt in less than 2 seconds is not shabby DPS for anybody) This also saves cleric's mana as I don't take more than a few pots worth of damage in the 8-10 minutes it takes to complete that part.

As I said, I don't use them primarily, but in the situations where they are beneficial, they absolutely rock IMHO.

[bandyman1]

The problem with repeaters is that that's your cap damage wise.

Whereas every other class becomes increases in damage output every level.

Repeaters are awesome until level 12. After that, not so much unless you go power5 or stat damage. DPS-wise they can't contend.

Couple of mis-conceptions in your post.

1) A sucessful intimidate draws all aggro for 6 seconds. No amount of damage you do in that time is gonna draw aggro from an intimatank.
2) You aren't getting a 3 shot volley to 1 swing of a proper melee.

Good luck with your build. I've known several effective repeater builds. I know a lot of people who enjoy them. But don't kid yourself on your DPS output.

[itsmezed72]

A couple of notes first:

Improved Crit: Pierce doesn't affect bows/crossbows. You need Improved Crit: Ranged. Also, while Rapid Shot works with repeating crossbows, rapid reload does not.

I've just done my first repeater using character, and found them pretty useful. I can't testify to their worth at higher levels, however, as the character just made 10th. I still think a well done bow build will outdo a repeater for DPS, but with the wider crit range on the repeater I'm expecting stat damaging, banishing, etc will be noticeably more effective.

[juniorpfactors]

if you find a W/P repeater...build your character around it...use it 95% of the time...and almost noone will out kill you... for red and purple names ... use a crafted bow...manyshot

if you dont have the w/p repeater find one..... 2nd best weapon in the game..... trade for it.... or watch AH i have seen 2 sell on my server in the last 10 days...one grabbed and banked for 2.5 mil gold buyout by myself, the other went to a friend for a 5 mil bid noone even bid against him...some people have no idea what a repeater build can do to 90% of the mobs out there with improved precise shot on. Aggro.... all you do is target the mob in the back...walk backwards and you kill upwards of 4-8 mobs at a time with 4-7 bolts and rapid reload works on repeater so forget the above poster he missremembers the updates... and i would always encourage a splash lvl or 5 of fighter :) haste boost is huge

jrp

[Arkat]

Also, while Rapid Shot works with repeating crossbows, rapid reload does not.

I think you might be mistaken concering Rapid Reload. See the post below:

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1768480&postcount=4

I take from that that Codog said it was a bug before when Rapid Reload didn't work on repeaters and he has since fixed it.

[GlassCannon]

The problem with repeaters is that that's your cap damage wise.

Whereas every other class becomes increases in damage output every level.

Repeaters are awesome until level 12. After that, not so much unless you go power5 or stat damage. DPS-wise they can't contend.

Couple of mis-conceptions in your post.

1) A sucessful intimidate draws all aggro for 6 seconds. No amount of damage you do in that time is gonna draw aggro from an intimatank.
2) You aren't getting a 3 shot volley to 1 swing of a proper melee.

Good luck with your build. I've known several effective repeater builds. I know a lot of people who enjoy them. But don't kid yourself on your DPS output.

That is basically true, unless you have been collecting for 2 years.

My Anarchic of Greater Lawful Outsider Bane outDPSes my crafted Mineral 2 bow(Yes, it really does) during Manyshot cooldowns. I go for crit effects like Banishing and Smiting, or Puncturing/weakening etc... else I can't outkill others(Due to no W/P repeater... all the gimps are using them and are stingy).

[Rickpa]

Rapid reload only works with light repeaters, and not heavy.

[Vizzini]

while your at it, do you have a suggestion for a w/p heavy repeater build? I have a Haggle bard that's currently using one, and I seem to be finding them lacking but suspect it's my build.


if you find a W/P repeater...build your character around it...use it 95% of the time...and almost noone will out kill you... for red and purple names ... use a crafted bow...manyshot

if you dont have the w/p repeater find one..... 2nd best weapon in the game..... trade for it.... or watch AH i have seen 2 sell on my server in the last 10 days...one grabbed and banked for 2.5 mil gold buyout by myself, the other went to a friend for a 5 mil bid noone even bid against him...some people have no idea what a repeater build can do to 90% of the mobs out there with improved precise shot on. Aggro.... all you do is target the mob in the back...walk backwards and you kill upwards of 4-8 mobs at a time with 4-7 bolts and rapid reload works on repeater so forget the above poster he missremembers the updates... and i would always encourage a splash lvl or 5 of fighter :) haste boost is huge

jrp

[GlassCannon]

Rapid reload only works with light repeaters, and not heavy.

Make a video, post it to Youtube.

I need to go to work now.

[ChainsawXIV]

A couple of days ago, some guildies helped me test out rate of fire with a few different ranged weapons. We wanted to sort out a few rumors and questions we had about repeater crossbows, and the way they compared to bows with various feats and abilities. The experiment was simple - get a stack of 100 ammo, and time how long it took to fire it all in various ways. Our tests weren't exhaustive - we didn't have all the combinations of classes and feats I wanted to test - but we were able to show a number of things conclusively which are relevant here:

1. If you're going to use a Repeating Crossbow, get the feat. Characters who fire a repeater without proficiency not only suffer the usual -4 penalty to hit, but fire the weapon with the same rate of fire as a standard crossbow. The multiple shot capacity of the repeater is not applied to any character using the weapon without proficiency.

2. Base attack bonus does effect the rate of fire. As described in the previously linked developer quotation, you will notice a significantly increased rate of fire as your character advances, and we observed this with characters of different level. We were not able to test two classes with different BAB progressions firing the same weapon with the same feats.

3. Rapid Reload definitely works with Light Repeating Crossbows. We didn't have a heavy repeater user with this feat to test with, but I've seen no evidence to support the earlier poster's claim that this feat doesn't work for heavy repeaters. For the light repeater, Rapid Reload produced a prodigious increase in rate of fire - almost 80% over the rate of fire for the simply proficient.

4. The Rapid Shot Ranger class ability definitely effects rate of fire. We weren't able to compare to mere proficiency at the same BAB, but it was observed that a Light Repeater fired by a 16 Rogue (3/4 BAB Progression) with Rapid Reload fired at a virtually identical rate to a Heavy Repeater fired by a 16 Ranger (1/1 BAB Progression) with Rapid Shot.

5. Haste does more for bows than repeaters. Comparing a level 16 Ranger firing both a Heavy Repeater and a Longbow Hasted, we found that Haste has a greater impact on Longbow fire. The rate of fire of the longbow increased by about 15%, while the rate of fire of the Heavy Repeater increased only 10%. Weather this varies by weapon, or is a stacking difference is not certain.

6. Repeaters outdo Many Shot for rate of fire. Comparing a level 16 Ranger firing a Longbow using Many Shot to the same ranger using a Heavy Repeater over a two minute time frame, we found that the average rate of fire of the Heavy Repeater was some 20% higher than the Longbow with Many Shot. The margin closes to just 10% with Haste, which effects the Longbow more.

7. For best results, both weapon types are used. The Ranger above achieved the maximum possible rate of fire by using his Longbow with Many Shot, then switching to his Heavy Repeater until Many Shot cooled down. This generated 40% better rate of fire than Longbow with Many Shot, and about 10% more than Heavy Repeater. Note that we were not able to test the stacking of Rapid Reload and Rapid Shot.

What I wasn't able to test was the differences if any between the rate of fire of Light and Heavy repeaters, and the differences between the Rapid Reload feat, and the Rapid Shot Ranger class ability. According to the pen and paper rules, it should take less time to reload the Light repeater, resulting in faster overall rate of fire, but as we well know, this may or may not carry over into DDO.

Overall, the conclusion is that Repeaters are well worth the feat investment. While they are not hands down better than bows - especially when you factor in the Bow Strength class ability - they can match them in most respects, and are generally superior for per-hit effects such as Paralyzing and Banishing thanks to their higher volume of fire. The subject of overall DPS is open to debate, but it seems safe to say that the Repeaters can hold their own, especially with powerful per-hit effects available on crafted items.

Build Thoughts

The key to damage output with the repeater is to capitalize on the rate of fire. You won't be able to do much to increase your damage directly like a bow or melee user can with Strength, so other sources are powerful. My Rogue, with the build outlined below, puts out a great deal of damage on most enemies thanks to her sneak attack, which weighs in at 8d6 + 12 damage per shot before equipment. If you have this kind of add-on damage in your build, you should do well, but traditional fighters and ranger types will never get the Repeater up to it's true potential.

The build on my main character (Ardia, Sarlona) is a Human Rogue 15 / Ranger 1, who specializes in Light Repeaters. I'm currently debating my plans for after the next level cap increase, but will probably opt to get a second level of ranger, and the rest rogue. By doing so, I'll give up one die of sneak attack damage, but get a significant rate of fire increase from stacking Rapid Shot on top of Rapid Reload. Here are her feats:

- Rapid Reload
- Point Blank Shot
- Exotic Weapon Proficiency
- Precise Shot
- Improved Critical: Ranged
- Improved Precise Shot

[Edit] Revised for easier reading.

[itsmezed72]

Note that my information regarding rapid reload is taken from DDOwiki and the d20 SRD. I haven't done any empirical testing yet. However these two sources state:

DDO Wiki:
Rapid reload allows crossbows to be reloaded faster. Stacks with Rapid Shot.
It provides no benefit to reload rates of bows, repeating crossbows (light or heavy) and thrown weapons.

d20 SRD:
Rapid Reload [General]
Choose a type of crossbow (hand, light, or heavy).

So perhaps it does work with a light repeater, but all official (and some unofficial) sources state the contrary, thus my earlier statement ;)

[ChainsawXIV]

As noted in the Developer Post quoted in the link above, at one time there was a bug where Rapid Reload did not work on Repeaters. This has since been fixed (I have personally tested and confirmed it) so I would guess that the quotation you listed is just out of date.

As for the pen and paper, while it is not explicitly stated that Rapid Reload works on repeater crossbows, it is not explicitly excluded, and it is implicitly included in the description of the repeater. The repeating crossbow functionality is described in terms of a weapon option or upgrade more than a weapon, and saying that a Repeating Light Crossbow is not a Light Crossbow is like saying that a Bastard Sword isn't a sword.

[Edit] Edited for clarity.

[Uska]

I love my repeater build and in the reaver I have to be careful or I will pull the aggro off the main tank and when its finally time to kill the reaver I do get his attention sometimes, still dont have a wounding of piercing but a nice couple of elemental piercers and of course a few epics.

[Uska]

A couple of notes first:

Improved Crit: Pierce doesn't affect bows/crossbows. You need Improved Crit: Ranged. Also, while Rapid Shot works with repeating crossbows, rapid reload does not.

I've just done my first repeater using character, and found them pretty useful. I can't testify to their worth at higher levels, however, as the character just made 10th. I still think a well done bow build will outdo a repeater for DPS, but with the wider crit range on the repeater I'm expecting stat damaging, banishing, etc will be noticeably more effective.

rapid reload was fixed for repeaters doesnt boost it a lot but it does some

[rodgyramjet]

I use w/p repeater and w/p bow on my 14 barb / 2 ranger build.

Its insane. The way my guildies play we only need me as the tank. Its rediculous. Its fun. Its powerful. Red names i just use a +5 bursting pure good with Manyshot for the time being, until i get my green bow all ready.

Personally I think a w/p repeater is better than a rapier. I hardly get hit with ranged. I can kill multiple baddies at a time. I only get hit by arrows or spells, and with 7 DR the arrows dont bother me.

My best kill is 5 skeletons in 1 shot with an undead slayer... in madstone :)

I spend most time using my

1. W/P repeater
2. Crippling/Destructing repeater
3. +5 shock burst pure good longbow.
4. +5 holy pure good longbow.


Rodgy - Argonessen

[krud]

pretty much agrees with what I was saying in a different repeater thread. Most people using repeaters with success have been able to acquire the few uber repeaters needed to make it work well - stat damage, (W/P or puncturing); extra damage (bursting/holy of pure good, shroud repeater); and maybe debuffing (cursespewing, etc). It's definitely not something to try unless you have already acquired some very good repeaters, or have the means to acquire the few uber ones off the AH.

[Vehemoth]

I use w/p repeater and w/p bow on my 14 barb / 2 ranger build.

Its insane. The way my guildies play we only need me as the tank. Its rediculous. Its fun. Its powerful. Red names i just use a +5 bursting pure good with Manyshot for the time being, until i get my green bow all ready.

Personally I think a w/p repeater is better than a rapier. I hardly get hit with ranged. I can kill multiple baddies at a time. I only get hit by arrows or spells, and with 7 DR the arrows dont bother me.

My best kill is 5 skeletons in 1 shot with an undead slayer... in madstone :)

I spend most time using my

1. W/P repeater
2. Crippling/Destructing repeater
3. +5 shock burst pure good longbow.
4. +5 holy pure good longbow.


Rodgy - Argonessen

I assume barb rage works on Xbows?

[Geonis]

Well, in your OP you asked for Repeater builds, and noone has posted one yet, so I'll start.



Halfling Ranger 13/Rog 1/Ftr 2


Feats
Halfling Dragonmark I
Halfling Dragonmark II
Halfling Dragonmark III
Exotic:Light Repeater
Imp Crit:Ranged
Rapid Reload
Skill Focus:UMD
Empower Healing


Full Rogue Skills

300+HP Heals

Favorite Weapon - Cursespewing Light Repeater of Puncturing ( combined with a Fearsome Robe of heavy Fort )
Mobs rush towards me getting their Con damaged, then once they're Cursed and finally manage to hit me, they are Feared and run away until they die. :D


Second Favorite Weapon - Weakening Light Repeater of Enfeebling
Something about the surprise in tanks voices when they notice they are auto-critting everything.

[cyadra]

I myself have made some repeater builds. A lot of good info out there, the most important being that it is very feat intensive if you want to get all out of your repeaters, and in so doing you really should go something like 14fighter/2rogue. I took halfling for mine, after trying every single race, and found that going S12D20C14IWCH8 is really the best, especially when you couple it with a dragonmark of healing. Getting a +11 to hit at level 3 is sweet. With the high DEX, you get the max to hit from your repeater and the ability to take weapon finesse when you need to go sword and board which is important. I took my rogue levels at 3 and 4 so I could take advantage of the feat, and sneak attack ability. This is also a build where shot on the run is effective, coupled with a +15% striding item or higher, you are a running and killing machine. At low levels I was out killing barbs in WW by 3 to 1. By my mid-levels in Delera's with I was up to 4 to 1 on kills. Prepare to take almost all the archer feats you can, rapid shot, percision, etc, along with weapon finesse, dodge and mobility (if you want Shot on the Run) I know it sounds like a lot of feats, but with 14 fighter levels you can squeeze them all in.

The repeater is a fun way to play, if you have some healing ability it is very soloable, and if your lucky and get another couple of people with repeaters, your questing is a breeze. Hope this helps.

[krud]

On a slightly different note, why are lt and hvy repeaters considered different weapon types? The mechanics are the same. One focus feat is all you need for ranged weapons (covers both xbows and regular bows), yet two almost identical weapons need separate feats?

[wonky]

So what's the better repeater? Light or heavy? I read earlier in this post that rapid reload only works for light repeaters. Is this true?

[parvo]

I'm having fun with a Great Crossbow build right now. But I'm not kidding myself about DPS. A heavy repeater or Longbow build would be better. It's permadeath so this is only a plan. Kepto the Crossbow archer is up to level six now. Found a Crippling of Righteousness on the broker.

Drow. Two levels of Ranger. One level of Barbarian (Face it, your ranged build is going to do some running). The rest fighter. Full BAB for the fire rate. Taking full advantage of Great Crossbow critical range. Lots of feats, including Weapon Finesse for those times when you need to melee (or just plain getting on the nerves of your groupmates :) ).

Notable feats planned:
(Lvl 1 selected) Exotic Weapon Proficiency
(Fighter Bonus) Rapid Reload
(Lvl 3 selected) Weapon Focus: Ranged Weapons
(Automatic) Rapid Shot
(Fighter Bonus) Power Critical
(Automatic) Fast Movement
(Lvl 6 selected) Weapon Finesse
(Fighter Bonus) Weapon Specialization: Ranged Weapons
(Lvl 9 selected) Dodge
(Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Ranged Weapons
(Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Focus: Ranged Weapons
(Lvl 12 selected) Point Blank Shot
(Fighter Bonus) Mobility
(Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Specialization: Ranged Weapons
(Lvl 15 selected) Shot on the Run

[parvo]

So what's the better repeater? Light or heavy? I read earlier in this post that rapid reload only works for light repeaters. Is this true?

I believe the feat works on either. I think it would be easy to test with a level one human.

[wonky]

I believe the feat works on either. I think it would be easy to test with a level one human.


See, that's just crazy enough to work! Thanks ;)

[rodgyramjet]

Rage improves crit on ALL weapons.

[sumnz]

Because the ANGRIER you are, the HARDER you....shoot...crossbows??

[BeachKlas]

4. The Rapid Shot Ranger class ability definitely effects rate of fire. We weren't able to compare to mere proficiency at the same BAB, but it was observed that a Light Repeater fired by a 16 Rogue (3/4 BAB Progression) with Rapid Reload fired at a virtually identical rate to a Heavy Repeater fired by a 16 Ranger (1/1 BAB Progression) with Rapid Shot.

I can not see how your reasoning logically builds to the conclusion that Rapid Shot does affect the rate of fire for repeaters, with the example your giving with a rogue vs a ranger.

There is a difference in BAB between rogues and rangers. A rogue gets 3/4 BAB per level and a ranger get 1 BAB per level. It is unclear for me how much increase in speed BAB gives at every level of BAB, but if we assume that it is linear, a ranger's attack speed will always be 33% faster (1/(3/4)=1.3333) than a rogues attack speed if they are both at the same character level.

So if we take your example above, if both rapid shot and rapid reload effects attack speed (and assuming they effect it to a similar degree), a ranger with rapid shot should fire at around 33% higher rate than a rogue with rapid reload.
Instead, you say that they attacked at about the same speed. This would mean that the rogue somehow has overcome the 33% speed difference (from BAB) between it and the ranger, and I therefore mean that this is instead evidence of that rapid shot does NOT effect attack speed with repeater crossbows.
On the contrary, your reasoning seems to point out that rapid reload increases attack speed to overcome the 33% speed difference between a rogue and a ranger and that rapid shot does not increase attack speed as much as rapid reload.

But I read in this other post http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1757734&postcount=2 examples how rapid shot and rapid reload effects rate of fire. According to those examples, both feats increase the attack speed with around 10%, and they stack. I think it is interesting to note that this post shows that at BAB 0, Rapid shot + Rapid reload increases attack speed with 50% (30/20), but at BAB 16 it increases attack speed with 19% (120/101).

But other posts show evidence of that they dont stack very well. This post http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1804399&postcount=6 shows that rapid reload, if added to a character that already has rapid shot, only increases attack speed with 0.7%.

This post http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=263847 displays two different opinions, that they don't stack and that they do.

I cannot find any conclusive information about this and it feels like I'll have to test it out for myself to be sure. :)

And lets not forget cforce's attack speed guide at http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=172819
But since Mod 9 Update 1 he says his guide is invalid.

If anyone knows of a guide for rapid shot and rapid reload that I havent already given, please post it.

[BeachKlas]

If anyone knows of a guide for rapid shot and rapid reload that I havent already given, please post it.
Yes, I am quoting myself. :D
I kept scanning the forums and found a post where a developer says rapid reload and rapid shot stacks on repeating crossbows and on normal crossbows: http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1403715&postcount=349
Yay!

[Steiner-Davion]

I absolutely love my Lightning II Heavy Repeater on my Bard, Steinr on Sarlona.

I only have Proficiency, but the Lightning Strike goes off all the time, it is freaking amazing.

[Jeromio]

Stop the digging, graverobbers! :p ;)

[Failedlegend]

Stop the digging, graverobbers! :p ;)

Yeah instead go to the repeater rogues unite thread (pure & multiclass alike) it's far newer and up to date.

[Asketes]

necro thread got necro'd.......TWICE!


muahhahahhaha