Best Rouge Love Change Ever!

[Brianius]

Sneak attacks no longer automatically draw you out of stealth mode. Note that your target will know where you are and will likely take great offense to being stabbed if you didn’t kill them outright.

This is awesome!

[Beherit_Baphomar]

Rouges everywhere untie!

[Vahyor]

I don't agree. While some may like this, I hate it.

This may not be intended, but enemies around the one you just stabbed, even if it was a 1-hit kill, will see you just fine as well and start shooting you, which makes this pretty much useless in any situation I would have used it. On top of that, playing in a party you should be trying to maintain sneak attack on things, and if you were in sneak mode to start off with an assassinate or just not to draw initial agro, you will stay in a slow moving, slow attacking state until you press the sneak button again or lose sneak attack, which could take a while especially if you are using a blinding radiance weapon.

I would find this useful if it didnt draw other enemies agro until you had been attacked by the one you stabbed, but as of right now it just makes me inefficient. I would at least like an option to turn this feature off on a per character basis.

[wamjratl1]

Rouges everywhere untie!

LMAO




However, Brianius makes no apologies for his spelling. still kinda funny though....

[Impaqt]

I hate this change as well..... You Just attacked someone, Everyone near should be able to see you at that point. WHle this may be interesting for the folks that choose Way of the Assassin, Mechanic and Acrobat Rogues get screwed. WHen i sneak up to something (Like a Beholder) I want to hit him with my W/E COmbo, and then rapidly attack him until hes at 0 str. Remaining in sneak mode slows down my attack progression significantly.

If Assassins think this is a great chage, then Implement this only for Assasins.

[Beherit_Baphomar]

However, Brianius makes no apologies for his spelling. still kinda funny though....

Im no ****shonhairy either, just...as you New York Italians say....busting his b****...

[Cholera]

This is awesome!

What are ya, some kind of commie? Where the hell is Senator McCarthy when ya need him? Next thing ya know Brianius will be sympathizing with Nazis and / or helping the terrorists win.

[Vahyor]

If Assassins think this is a great chage, then Implement this only for Assasins.

It's not even for us, nearby monsters start attacking you if you assassinate their friend and remain in sneak mode, which defeats the whole purpose

[Impaqt]

It's not even for us, nearby monsters start attacking you if you assassinate their friend and remain in sneak mode, which defeats the whole purpose

me THinks the OP hasnt actually experienced this in-game yet....

[Black_Flamingo]

It's not even for us, nearby monsters start attacking you if you assassinate their friend and remain in sneak mode, which defeats the whole purpose

Actually, I've tested this on my rogue. If the enemy you're attacking aggros on you (IE it didn't die), then as usual, it will inform its nearby allies of that fact. If it does die, then it doesn't have a chance, and nothing around you gets aggroed.

[Brianius]

hmmmmm No enthusiasm for this huh. I personally love it it isn't that hard to unactivate stealth mode and i'm pretty sure even if you kill something in stealth mode monsters in the surrounding area don't notice you. Its stealth kills people not every attack has to be noisy, its just as viable to stab something in the back and kill it with one shot as it is to smash it upside the head while letting every dungeon in stormreach know your killing things. I'm pretty sure if your attacking in stealth your not going for DPS more one shot kills.

I have a spelling/grammer disclaimer in my sig =) just be glad I don't know 733t speak or this would have been horrendous.

[The_LootBoot]

I hate this change as well..... You Just attacked someone, Everyone near should be able to see you at that point. WHle this may be interesting for the folks that choose Way of the Assassin, Mechanic and Acrobat Rogues get screwed. WHen i sneak up to something (Like a Beholder) I want to hit him with my W/E COmbo, and then rapidly attack him until hes at 0 str. Remaining in sneak mode slows down my attack progression significantly.

If Assassins think this is a great chage, then Implement this only for Assasins.

How about you just hit the unsneak button right before you attack and you should be COMPLETELY FINE. Man, people complain about everything.

[Impaqt]

How about you just hit the unsneak button right before you attack and you should be COMPLETELY FINE. Man, people complain about everything.

I complain about very little actually... Blade Barrier is a personal pet peeve of mine, Other than that, I roll with the changes. I like coming out of sneak mode when I attack.... It should be a Choice, Not a Game mechanic how it operates.

[The_LootBoot]

It is called "click unsneak button before you attack". They just changed the default to something most rogues would want. If you don't want it, you have the option and CHOICE of changing it. They haven't taken that option away from you, just added functionality.

[Vinne]

Lol, So you can land a sneak atack that kills the target and not come out of sneak but if you tumble then you come out of sneak? To funny

[Talon_Moonshadow]

This could go either way....

But what worries me is that I'm betting as soon as you attack, all baddies around you will know where you are instantly. Maybe to the point of even getting agro on you.

And currently attacks from stealth are difficult with the way the animation is and the way movement works by stealth.
Difficult to explain.....but I have yet to successully attack something from stealth that was not sleeping. Anything walking at even a normal pace, I cannot hit for one reason or another.

Currewnt agro mechanics seems to be that any other monster who at any point gets within a certain distance of another monster that knows your location, will instantly become agroed on you..........not sure exactly how they decide who in a group to attack, but they are guaranteed to attack someone.

This sudden all-knowingness really bothers me.

Friends alerting you to players......yes.
But they should have to look for you and spot via spot checks and line of sight......not suddenly gaining knowledge they shouldn't have.
"Ugh justem attacked from sneaky human who ran around corner......" His friends should still have to actually view the sneaky human with his own "spotting" eyes to be able to attack you first.

[Impaqt]

It is called "click unsneak button before you attack". They just changed the default to something most rogues would want. If you don't want it, you have the option and CHOICE of changing it. They haven't taken that option away from you, just added functionality.

No its not, If I come out of sneak mode before I attack I could get aggro and lose 4 Points of STR Sneak Damage. Thats Huge.

If I tumble I break Sneak... If I open a Door I lose SNeak.. If I pull a lever I lose sneak...But if I Attack/kill someone I dont? Doesnt make sense at all.


ALl I ask is that Turbine adds a Simple UI Option.

:Attacking from Sneak Breaks Sneak Mode." Check the Box yes or no....

[DoctorWhofan]

Sneak attacks no longer automatically draw you out of stealth mode. Note that your target will know where you are and will likely take great offense to being stabbed if you didn’t kill them outright.

This is awesome!


Rouges everywhere untie!

so makeup has sneak attack that when being used won't get you out of the sneak mode? Why Avon get this privilage and my ROGUE doesn't?

[Rindalathar]

I'm with Impaqt and the rest on this. I think this change is silly. Getting that first sneak attack is great, but after, I want to get my beat down in quickly and efficiently. Keeping me in sneak mode will not allow me this luxury.

Turbine, make this a toggle feature, please!

[Venar]

Wait, some rogues actually sneak in battle? What a waste of dps.

[Impaqt]

Wait, some rogues actually sneak in battle? What a waste of dps.

Obviously, You've never had a Rogue in your group sneak up onh a Beholder and render his eyebeams useless before the rest of the aprty has to go around the corner....

[MrCow]

I agree that a toggled option would work well for this... but has anyone thought of other reasons they may have changed attacking from stealth to work like this (other than Way of the Assassin II)? Maybe it was needed for things like Hiding in Plain Sight in the future? :)

[Turial]

This could go either way....

But what worries me is that I'm betting as soon as you attack, all baddies around you will know where you are instantly. Maybe to the point of even getting agro on you.


This change sounds like a segway into HIPS.

Edit: rats mrcow beat me to it.

[Venar]

No, because if your rogue has the time to sneak all the way there before the party rounds the corner, you have the slowest party in the world.

A rogue who know how to assist will be 100% time in sneak attack, radiance makes it even easier. I just can't imagine my rogue going back in sneak mode and crawling around instead of killing stuff.

To each his own.

[MrCow]

if your rogue has the time to sneak all the way there before the party rounds the corner, you have the slowest party in the world.

Or maybe the rest of your group is sneaking as well. :D

[Angelus_dead]

This is awesome!
Yep, it's a lot of fun so far. I don't know if this will be enough to make sneaking up to attack someone a really viable choice, but it helps.

[Impaqt]

No, because if your rogue has the time to sneak all the way there before the party rounds the corner, you have the slowest party in the world.

A rogue who know how to assist will be 100% time in sneak attack, radiance makes it even easier. I just can't imagine my rogue going back in sneak mode and crawling around instead of killing stuff.

To each his own.

???

Hey, we got a Beholder Up ahead, Would you like to all Rush it, Get enervated, Fod'd, Cursed, Disintegrated, and otherwise damaged.. Or.. WOuld you like to wait here for 10 seconds while I go make him a paperweight?

[Turial]

So does this change only affect those with rogue sneak attack or does it cover all attacks that would count as sneak attacks?

[Angelus_dead]

Hey, we got a Beholder Up ahead, Would you like to all Rush it, Get enervated, Fod'd, Cursed, Disintegrated, and otherwise damaged..
Why would we get hurt?

Can you name a specific quest you're thinking of where this situation might happen?

[Zenako]

Um....will this change also affect when you open chests? open doors? flip a lever? from sneak mode too? If so then this is great news to anyone who tries to engage quests in a stealthy manner. The COME out of SNEAK when you pick a lock/open a door has been the death of stealthy characters everwhere...

As for battle....gotta to see how it actually implements in game..

[Angelus_dead]

So does this change only affect those with rogue sneak attack or does it cover all attacks that would count as sneak attacks?
It has nothing to do with either of those. The change is that making a melee attack roll while in stealth mode will no longer automatically deactivate stealth. Possession of Sneak Attack is irrelevant- it's just about if you're walking around in the crouching "I'm sneaky!" pose.

Some people apparently are unable to click the "Stealth" icon on their own, and are upset that the software no longer does it for them.

[Turial]

The change is that making a melee attack roll while in stealth mode will no longer automatically deactivate stealth.

Melee only eh? Well rats...I was hoping for the ability to make ranged attacks from sneak and keeping the sneak on. Oh well.

[Impaqt]

Why would we get hurt?

Can you name a specific quest you're thinking of where this situation might happen?


You have some form of Immunity to Beholders? Sweet....

Von 3, Rainbow, Invaders......

[Demoyn]

Man... all this debate over a magic pad of makeup?

[Vahyor]

Actually, I've tested this on my rogue. If the enemy you're attacking aggros on you (IE it didn't die), then as usual, it will inform its nearby allies of that fact. If it does die, then it doesn't have a chance, and nothing around you gets aggroed.

It may be because of the weapons I'm using, the types of monsters I'm trying this on or the assassinate attack itself, but every time I've tried it I've ended up with something like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gbqyOGhsZk)

[Angelus_dead]

You have some form of Immunity to Beholders?
Well yeah, many different kinds of immunity.


Von 3, Rainbow, Invaders......
Funny!

As if we're gonna wait around for you to sneak up on those beholders one at a time. If the party wants you to solo them, fine... you can do that in a reckless charge too.

[Angelus_dead]

It may be because of the weapons I'm using, the types of monsters I'm trying this on or the assassinate attack itself, but every time I've tried it I've ended up with something like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gbqyOGhsZk)
I don't see anything wrong with that. It looks in accordance with the release notes to me.

You hurt someone, and nearby creatures start trying to attack you. But you're still in the sneak pose, which is what was claimed.

[Vahyor]

I killed someone in 1 hit from sneak and still drew agro, while the release notes mention you should only draw agro if you don't kill them outright.

Note that your target will know where you are and will likely take great offense to being stabbed if you didn’t kill them outright.

As least, that's how I read them, and I honestly don't see any use for this feature if that's not how it's supposed to work, you are left exposed just the same, in a slow moving slow attacking state.

[Angelus_dead]

I killed someone in 1 hit from sneak and still drew agro, while the release notes mention you should only draw agro if you don't kill them outright.
No. All the notes say has changed is that you remain in Stealth Mode after making an attack.

An additional reminder after the change informs you of what happens normally in the event that you attack a single target. It makes no claim about what might happen involving aggro of other creatures.

If it were possible for you to sneak into a group of several monsters and Assassinate them one at a time without any of them reacting to the bloody deaths of their comrades, that would be pretty silly. Remember, it was previously published that monsters will react if their buddies suddenly fall dead for no expected reason.

[Eudimio]

You have some form of Immunity to Beholders? Sweet....

Von 3, Rainbow, Invaders......

Yup. Optic nerves. They're fantastic.

[Vahyor]

No. All the notes say has changed is that you remain in Stealth Mode after making an attack.

An additional reminder after the change informs you of what happens normally in the event that you attack a single target. It makes no claim about what might happen involving aggro of other creatures.

If it were possible for you to sneak into a group of several monsters and Assassinate them one at a time without any of them reacting to the bloody deaths of their comrades, that would be pretty silly. Remember, it was previously published that monsters will react if their buddies suddenly fall dead for no expected reason.

I know it would not make any sense. However, I just can't see any use for the staying in sneak mode feature unless you could do such a thing.

[Turial]

I killed someone in 1 hit from sneak and still drew agro, while the release notes mention you should only draw agro if you don't kill them outright.


As least, that's how I read them, and I honestly don't see any use for this feature if that's not how it's supposed to work, you are left exposed just the same, in a slow moving slow attacking state.

Its hard to see in the video but did the first attack or second attack in the double attack end up killing the rat?

If its the second, there is the possibility that it was able to get off a warning squeek before dieing to the second blow.

[Vahyor]

The first attack killed it, you can only see 1 string of numbers

[Venar]

This game is all about speeding quickly.
Short time buffs (Divine Fervor, haste), limited buffs (rage, songs, action boosts), and the new Ki, all makes players not want to lose any time. I hope you maxed out sneak speed enhancement if you plan of sneaking around. I'll keep zerging with that big barb that gets aggro for me.

[Turial]

The first attack killed it, you can only see 1 string of numbers

Then it depends on if damage is applied before the creature has to save versus the death attack. In this case it looks like damage then death. If you are supposed to beable to assasinate and remain undetected due to the new change then this is a bug similiar to how weapon damage attributes used to fire off before sneak attack causing rogues to never get sneak attack when using pre-fix damage mods like holy, etc.

[Angelus_dead]

However, I just can't see any use for the staying in sneak mode feature unless you could do such a thing.
It may be helpful in that monsters will not necessarily aggro on you. And if they do aggro, they might not know where to aim to attack you.

As a test, you might like to sneak into windlasher canyon and try one-shotting some gnolls while in view of their distant archer buddies.

[Vahyor]

I don't plan on sneaking around, however theres nothing stopping me from following that big barb into a group of enemies while he grabs agro and doing a quick sneak-assassinate to take out 1-2 of them. What I want is for that assassinate to take me out of sneak completely so I can continue killing things.

[wolfy42]

I havn't had a chance to log on and test this yet....but I can see a ton of applications.


How about Cleave/Great Cleave and possibly even whirlwind combo's on a whole group of enemies getting full sneak attack bonuses the whole time? I don't know if cleave/great cleave etc will now break you out of stealth....but it's an attack roll...so it probably won't.

Stealth up to a group with 2 good weapons equiped on your rogue and whirlwind/cleave/GC (and not to long later cleave them again) for a nice amount of damage right off the bat. You might get aggro...but with the speed of your dmg then 6-8 hits on all enemies (possibly 12-16 strength dmg to each without factoring in weapon effects)....will it matter much anymore?

Movement speed in stealth isn't THAT big of a deal either. You can boost it with rogue enhancements, and haste/exp retreat along with other movement speed boosts (ranger/barbarian..and barbarians 10% constant boost) all increase your movement speed while stealthed.

Finally you still only stealth IN COMBAT or right before it...when running around you won't be stealthed.


All this does is give your rogue an option to stay stealthed in combat....and attack slower for the bonus of getting constant sneak attacks.

Very nice bonus in my opinion especially for soloist rogues!!

Hot key your stealth button and just click it after your initial attack if you want things the way they were before. Otherwise I can see how this can be VERY useful indeed to rogues (also just because an enemy "knows" your there does not mean it's going to randomly swing around to try and find you when there are other characters in plain sight for it to attack....this may also act as a reduction in rogue aggro as well).

I'll test this out when I get home.....but I think it looks like a great change.

[Vahyor]

How about Cleave/Great Cleave and possibly even whirlwind combo's on a whole group of enemies getting full sneak attack bonuses the whole time? I don't know if cleave/great cleave etc will now break you out of stealth....but it's an attack roll...so it probably won't.

Stealth up to a group with 2 good weapons equiped on your rogue and whirlwind/cleave/GC (and not to long later cleave them again) for a nice amount of damage right off the bat. You might get aggro...but with the speed of your dmg then 6-8 hits on all enemies (possibly 12-16 strength dmg to each without factoring in weapon effects)....will it matter much anymore?


The change will actually hurt these situations, as you will be stuck with the monsters agro and be attacking them back slower.



All this does is give your rogue an option to stay stealthed in combat....and attack slower for the bonus of getting constant sneak attacks.

Very nice bonus in my opinion especially for soloist rogues!!


You do not get sneak attack if the monsters know where you are and have their aggression on you, even if you are in sneak mode, you will still only get your initial sneak attack, and now be penalized by the slow attack speed stealth gives.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Wait, some rogues actually sneak in battle? What a waste of dps.

well.....I sneak before the battle.....then when someone else gets agro, I tumble and attack.
But I know what you meant. :)

My Rog9 is by far my highest DPS per level char. Now if I could only learn to stay alive after my first attack. :(

[query]

The way of the assassin is to kill without being noticed.

If you think this means being in a room with a bunch of others there, then only the masters of masters (hiding in plain sight) do this.

The idea of this is to kill a SINGLE target, like a sentry or somebody if they yell, will THEN summon more from the patrol.


If you succeed AND stay in stealth, you should not be noticed by any patroling not close by, or just have "disabled" the alarn.


So when you think assassin, think alone or think distant from others.


That beholder example is perfect. So would a lone giant if you have the stats.


I play a ranger assassin and pure rogue on this way path, so I do speak from experience (and was able to sneak around Thernal at L 5 and not be seen inches away from any enemy.)

[wolfy42]

The change will actually hurt these situations, as you will be stuck with the monsters agro and be attacking them back slower.



You do not get sneak attack if the monsters know where you are and have their aggression on you, even if you are in sneak mode, you will still only get your initial sneak attack, and now be penalized by the slow attack speed stealth gives.


That makes absolutely no sense.

So you are stealthed....and the enemies do not know where you are (ie they are swinging blindly) but you don't get sneak attack damage?

Like I said I havn't tested it...but from the description it sounds much like how enemies act if they hear you move but have nto seen you.....and you do still get sneak attack damage against them in that case (or did) at least for your first attack when you would break out of stealth.

If attacking does not break stealth....and allows you to still get sneak attack damage...then I can see a ton of uses.

If on the other hand attacking only means you stay in stealth mode...but the enemies all "know" where you are about and so do not get sneak attacked anymore then the change is just a nerf.

It is not worded that way though....and it makes no sense for them to implement a change like that. What would be the benefit to the rogue...or game mechanics as a whole?

Can someone confirm that after sneak attacking you no longer get sneak attack dmg added vs the enemy after this change? I can't log on to test it myself.

Also would be great if someone could test if cleave/GC etc keeps you stealthed as well. If it does not...using trip etc to initiate your sneak attacks could be around the problem for people who do not like the change. You would get knocked out of sneak just like in the old version....by using trip.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

???

Hey, we got a Beholder Up ahead, Would you like to all Rush it, Get enervated, Fod'd, Cursed, Disintegrated, and otherwise damaged.. Or.. WOuld you like to wait here for 10 seconds while I go make him a paperweight?

Charge!

[WeaselKing]

Best rouge love change ever!

Oooooo, did they add a new color? Maybe a new shade of pink for Rowan?

[Talon_Moonshadow]

It may be helpful in that monsters will not necessarily aggro on you. And if they do aggro, they might not know where to aim to attack you.

As a test, you might like to sneak into windlasher canyon and try one-shotting some gnolls while in view of their distant archer buddies.

From what I've seen, if i bump into one guys leg, he immediately throws red paint on me because his friends now know exactly where I am too. :(

[Callowyn]

I tested this in gianthold on a giant with an orc the other side of the tent from him, the assassinate worked perfectly on the giant, but the orc proceeded to run at me and attack. Seems that even though the attack was a success, and I remained stealthed, the orc knew exactly where I was and had absolutely no problem hitting me. So much for stealthy kills.

[GlassCannon]

I hate this change as well..... You Just attacked someone, Everyone near should be able to see you at that point. WHle this may be interesting for the folks that choose Way of the Assassin, Mechanic and Acrobat Rogues get screwed. WHen i sneak up to something (Like a Beholder) I want to hit him with my W/E COmbo, and then rapidly attack him until hes at 0 str. Remaining in sneak mode slows down my attack progression significantly.

If Assassins think this is a great chage, then Implement this only for Assasins.

Load Sneak to hotbar.

Assign to a button.

Attack then click that button with your finger.


Solved.

[Impaqt]

Load Sneak to hotbar.

Assign to a button.

Attack then click that button with your finger.


Solved.



Or You could

Load Sneak to hotbar.

Assign to a button.

Attack then click that button with your finger.(To go back into stealth)



Same Solution, No chage to the coding was Required.

Seesm fromt eh posts here staying in stealth isnt really a benefit to you assassins either... So I Reiterate

Whats the point of this change?

[Vahyor]

The way it used to work made more sense.

Not only is stabbing someone an action that should very clearly reveal you to others, but once everyone knows I'm there and starts to swing, my reaction would be to get in a position to more easily defend myself / run away, not tiptoe away trying to make no noise.

[wolfy42]

This is totally crazy I agree.

If you are discovered by an enemy......it makes sense that you should not break out of sneak mode...because you may not know the enemy ahs seen you (So your still trying to be stealthy).

If you attack something though and KNOW that there is no reason to be sneaking around anymore...then you should break out of stealth mode automatically.

The only reason this made any sense at all is if you stayed in stealth mode after attacking and still got your sneak attack damage bonus (Ie you could keep attacking from stealth on the enemy).

If that is not the case then this is just a stupid nerf that does not even make sense. Why would a rogue keep trying to hide from enemies he knows can see him?

It's stupid...and makes no sense...and has absolutely no point.

[Angelus_dead]

If attacking does not break stealth....and allows you to still get sneak attack damage...then I can see a ton of uses.

If on the other hand attacking only means you stay in stealth mode...but the enemies all "know" where you are about and so do not get sneak attacked anymore then the change is just a nerf.
Neither of those is true.

[Angelus_dead]

Or You could
Load Sneak to hotbar.
Assign to a button.
Attack then click that button with your finger.(To go back into stealth)

Same Solution, No chage to the coding was Required.
You must be joking, right? Surely you cannot seriously mean to say it's equivalent? It's really simple: once you've been seen, going back into stealth mode will not erase you from the monster's memory.

I have another question: have you actually tried this change?

[Eladrin]

If you kill an opponent in one shot from stealth, nearby monsters will investigate the area looking about for what might have happened, but won't otherwise know what's going on.

If you wound an opponent, that particular opponent will know where you are and will scream its head off to its friends, but while the others will know that there is an enemy about, they will not immediately know your exact location.

If any of those other monsters physically runs into you or otherwise detects you, they will discover your presence, as normal.

[EspyLacopa]

If you kill an opponent in one shot from stealth, nearby monsters will investigate the area looking about for what might have happened, but won't otherwise know what's going on.

If you wound an opponent, that particular opponent will know where you are and will scream its head off to its friends, but while the others will know that there is an enemy about, they will not immediately know your exact location.

If any of those other monsters physically runs into you or otherwise detects you, they will discover your presence, as normal.

. . . .wow. Mix this change in with the Assassinate from the WoA rogue bit, and you'd have a way to just mutilate enemies. . .

[Talcyndl]

. . . .wow. Mix this change in with the Assassinate from the WoA rogue bit, and you'd have a way to just mutilate enemies. . .

Yup.

Playing with it against the Threnal Giants.

Poor Giants. :(

:D

[Impaqt]

. . . .wow. Mix this change in with the Assassinate from the WoA rogue bit, and you'd have a way to just mutilate enemies. . .


yeah, and any rogue who Doesnt have the assasinate ability just got screwed.

i'm totally fine with this being granted to WotA Builds. Your spendign extra points on Hide and Move silent, its part of the requirement to be in stealth to get yoru assassinate off.... But to rogues who are stealthing so they can get a sneak attack in before an attack chain, its highly annoying.

[Angelus_dead]

If you kill an opponent in one shot from stealth, nearby monsters will investigate the area looking about for what might have happened, but won't otherwise know what's going on.
It bears mentioning that the range threshold for those "nearby" monsters to investigate is less than monsters' normal visual range.

That means if you are walking down a hallway with archers above you (as happens in Crucible or Chains of Flame), you can kill an enemy with melee stealth attacks and remain unseen by the archers. Prior to this change, making an attack roll would automatically unstealth you, and the archers would automatically begin shooting (preventing you from restealthing within their field of fire).

Basically, the amount of separation required between monsters so you can stealth-kill one of them without alerting the others has been reduced. This accelerates the process of using stealth aggressively, if you like that kind of thing.

As a separate thing, I'll mention that today's change doesn't apply to ranged attacks. Maybe there should be a way to make range attacks while remaining stealthed (possibly requiring an enhancement like Deepwoods Sniper)

[Angelus_dead]

But to rogues who are stealthing so they can get a sneak attack in before an attack chain, its highly annoying.
That is not true. I'll ask again: have you actually tried this?

What is preventing you from using the "Sneak" icon to turn off stealth mode, if that's what you want to do?

[Impaqt]

That is not true. I'll ask again: have you actually tried this?

What is preventing you from using the "Sneak" icon to turn off stealth mode, if that's what you want to do?

Its not that I cant, its that i never had to before and I shouldnt now. I'm sneaking up on a Mob to get a sneak attack in. I EXPECT to get aggro as soon as I do. I dont expect that they would not look for me. I expect to be able to hit them once, then then 2...3...4... times rapidly. Turning off stealth mode takes time I never had to use before.

[Valiance]

Mark me down for not liking this change at all. Please make it selectable.

I don't even have a rogue but i have a stealthy ranger/wizard. I used to sneak up to mobs, stunning blow them and proceed to immediately rip them apart with dual wielding crits. Now I get this super slow, 1 attack every 2 seconds, sneak animation while their 6 seconds of stun is wearing off. Switching out of sneak manually is slower than the old way of automatically popping out.

Not a fan.

[Muirtach]

Its not that I cant, its that i never had to before and I shouldnt now. I'm sneaking up on a Mob to get a sneak attack in. I EXPECT to get aggro as soon as I do. I dont expect that they would not look for me. I expect to be able to hit them once, then then 2...3...4... times rapidly. Turning off stealth mode takes time I never had to use before.

And in a week you will have become use to hitting sneak to come out or tumbling away to break or whatever you decide to do yourself.

[Talcyndl]

I've got sneak hotkeyed to a mouse button, so it's not a big deal to me to turn it off. Though lag in the change taking can be annoying sometimes (especially in the middle of an attack chain), but...

[Angelus_dead]

Its not that I cant, its that i never had to before and I shouldnt now. I'm sneaking up on a Mob to get a sneak attack in. I EXPECT to get aggro as soon as I do. I dont expect that they would not look for me. I expect to be able to hit them once, then then 2...3...4... times rapidly. Turning off stealth mode takes time I never had to use before.
Ok, so clearly you haven't tried this.

1. You do get aggro as soon as you attack him. He does look for you.

2. Deactivating a mode like Sneak does not take time in DDO. Activating a mode does have a delay, and I think that's a bug (Whether it's Power Attack, Extend Spell, or especially Haste Boost, there shouldn't be a delay). But deactivating these modes does not.

3. Even if you do not leave Sneak mode, you are free to attack rapidly simply by holding down the mouse button.

Fun Facts: A stealthed DDO rogue attacks at 75% the rate of unstealthed, or 85% rate if he's TWF.

[Vagabond]

I don't have time to read 4 pages at the moment, but something about this that really annoyed me:

If you fire a bow, you break stealth. If you run around stabbing at something that's dodging away from you and throwing fire at you, you don't.

This change is horrible. Needs to be an option to turn on/off, AND you need to be able to remain stealthed while making ranged attacks. It makes perfect sense to snipe at things from stealth, or to do ranged sneak attacks from stealth repeatedly.

edit: argh, just a few posts above has the same complaint, sorry. Well, throwing another vote in on the issue. However, I don't think it should require enhancements. Ranged sneak attack is so poorly implemented and buggy already that it needs all the love it can get.

[wolfy42]

I personally think that you should stay stealthed and undetected if you fire a ranged weapon outside of 30 feet (PBS range). The enemies may investigate the area....like they heard a noise coming from that direction (or in this case an arrow came from that direction lol), but they should not be able to detect you automatically.

And in addition all attacks made while stealthed should generate far less hate.....if there is a character trying NOT to be noticed and taking an attack speed reduction in the process....most enemies will probably be pounding on the one that is standing right in front of them swinging a big sword.

[Kisaragi]

If you kill an opponent in one shot from stealth, nearby monsters will investigate the area looking about for what might have happened, but won't otherwise know what's going on.

If you wound an opponent, that particular opponent will know where you are and will scream its head off to its friends, but while the others will know that there is an enemy about, they will not immediately know your exact location.

If any of those other monsters physically runs into you or otherwise detects you, they will discover your presence, as normal.

Except that currently soon as you attack a monster, all nearby monsters know immediately where you are. There's no searching involved, no shouting, just oh yeah, you attacked from two floors up in the shadows while you were invisible. I find you without even trying. If you ask me, it's like the computer is cheating.

[Impaqt]

Ok, so clearly you haven't tried this.

1. You do get aggro as soon as you attack him. He does look for you.

2. Deactivating a mode like Sneak does not take time in DDO. Activating a mode does have a delay, and I think that's a bug (Whether it's Power Attack, Extend Spell, or especially Haste Boost, there shouldn't be a delay). But deactivating these modes does not.

3. Even if you do not leave Sneak mode, you are free to attack rapidly simply by holding down the mouse button.

Fun Facts: A stealthed DDO rogue attacks at 75% the rate of unstealthed, or 85% rate if he's TWF.

yes, I have tried it..... Its not as bad as I imagined, but its still bad. DDO Should not be a twitch game. I should have to hit another button to do what should be a logical and natrual progression. Once I Attack, and have aggro, THere is no reason I would ever want to be stealthed. Toggleing off the Sneak attack mode may not take long, but it does seem to reset the attack progression. My first 2 attacks are gone and I must restart my attack progression from BAB again. On a reduced BAB class that suddenly got aggro (IE I lost my Sneak attack bonus) this is a -3 to hit in my case for 2 additional attacks.

85% attack rate is still 15% slower than I should be attacking. I dont liek it. Being hit breaks my sneak mode. Gaining Aggro should as well. If I perform a Successful sneak attack for a Death, and I gain no aggro aroundme, i see no reason for sneak to be broken. But as SOON as I gain aggro, there is no good reason I should be in sneak mode.

[Turial]

If you kill an opponent in one shot from stealth, nearby monsters will investigate the area looking about for what might have happened, but won't otherwise know what's going on.

If you wound an opponent, that particular opponent will know where you are and will scream its head off to its friends, but while the others will know that there is an enemy about, they will not immediately know your exact location.

If any of those other monsters physically runs into you or otherwise detects you, they will discover your presence, as normal.Eladrin will you check the coding for the new attack from stealth to see if it is properly interacting with the assasinate ability. I was using a flaming dagger and assassinated an ogre with two of his friends in close proximity. The two other ogres were facing away from the one I killed in a single shot through the assassin ability. Yet they were able to bee line for me dispite being unable to notice me prior. Is the coding applying weapon damage and then the kill portion of the assissinate ability or the other way around?

[Lithic]

yes, I have tried it..... Its not as bad as I imagined, but its still bad. DDO Should not be a twitch game. I should have to hit another button to do what should be a logical and natrual progression. Once I Attack, and have aggro, THere is no reason I would ever want to be stealthed. Toggleing off the Sneak attack mode may not take long, but it does seem to reset the attack progression. My first 2 attacks are gone and I must restart my attack progression from BAB again. On a reduced BAB class that suddenly got aggro (IE I lost my Sneak attack bonus) this is a -3 to hit in my case for 2 additional attacks.

85% attack rate is still 15% slower than I should be attacking. I dont liek it. Being hit breaks my sneak mode. Gaining Aggro should as well. If I perform a Successful sneak attack for a Death, and I gain no aggro aroundme, i see no reason for sneak to be broken. But as SOON as I gain aggro, there is no good reason I should be in sneak mode.

I agree it can be annoying. One option is to tumble away then back in. It turns off stealth, and the monster cant attack you while you are out of range.

Hoping for a toggle myself.

[Angelus_dead]

But as SOON as I gain aggro, there is no good reason I should be in sneak mode.
Why don't you think "Not being detected by monsters" is a good reason?

[Talcyndl]

Except that currently soon as you attack a monster, all nearby monsters know immediately where you are. There's no searching involved, no shouting, just oh yeah, you attacked from two floors up in the shadows while you were invisible. I find you without even trying. If you ask me, it's like the computer is cheating.

Not true now. I was able to repeatedly assassinate stuff out in the Vale, without getting aggro from nearby monsters. Kill, wait, kill, repeat. Only problem was the occassional times things made their fort save. :D

[Angelus_dead]

Eladrin will you check the coding for the new attack from stealth to see if it is properly interacting with the assasinate ability. I was using a flaming dagger and assassinated an ogre with two of his friends in close proximity. The two other ogres were facing away from the one I killed in a single shot through the assassin ability. Yet they were able to bee line for me dispite being unable to notice me prior.
What else do you think should have happened?

[Talcyndl]

Eladrin will you check the coding for the new attack from stealth to see if it is properly interacting with the assasinate ability. I was using a flaming dagger and assassinated an ogre with two of his friends in close proximity. The two other ogres were facing away from the one I killed in a single shot through the assassin ability. Yet they were able to bee line for me dispite being unable to notice me prior. Is the coding applying weapon damage and then the kill portion of the assissinate ability or the other way around?

In all but a few cases, I was able to remain hidden even using a crafted flaming good burst shortsword. I think it depends stealth skill levels, the type of monster (ie, their spot) and the distance.

All in all it seems to be working pretty well in my limited testing.

The one oddity was when I killed a named in the Vale (the Cleric one), the mephits kinda went buggy and some ended up stuck on the side of a hill. Made them easy to kill, but...

[Talcyndl]

Why don't you think "Not being detected by monsters" is a good reason?

QFT. Especially if you are using the assassinate ability.

[Ganak]

I dislike this change strongly. I put in almost 6 hours on my 11 rogue today.

The change benefits soloist and lower levels. At any level higher than 4-5, a rogue is not going to be one-shotting many mobs (despite the most underrated dps in the game). It means a ticked off mob who's now beating on your slow moving, slow attacking stealthed rogue. Have to tumble back or manually hit the hotkey to break stealth, both which waste precious seconds, in order to get to normal attack speed.

I liked the stealth into full assault mode before much better. How's about this being a toggled ability or something? Best course is to reverse it, but we know that won't happen.

And bring back tumbling while stealthed too!


Poor stealth....

[Talcyndl]

I dislike this change strongly. I put in almost 6 hours on my 11 rogue today.

The change benefits soloist and lower levels. At any level higher than 4-5, a rogue is not going to be one-shotting many mobs (despite the most underrated dps in the game). It means a ticked off mob who's now beating on your slow moving, slow attacking stealthed rogue. Have to tumble back or manually hit the hotkey to break stealth, both which waste precious seconds, in order to get to normal attack speed.

I liked the stealth into full assault mode before much better. How's about this being a toggled ability or something? Best course is to reverse it, but we know that won't happen.

And bring back tumbling while stealthed too!


Poor stealth....

If you decide to take WotA II, you might not be so down on Stealth. :D

[Impaqt]

Why don't you think "Not being detected by monsters" is a good reason?


Last tiem I checked, once youhave aggro, you've already been detected.

[Talcyndl]

Last tiem I checked, once youhave aggro, you've already been detected.

You have not been detected by nearby monsters.

So theoretically, if you (or someone else) kills the one monster you didn't take down in one shot, you are free to sneak attack or assassinate nearby stuff that didn't detect you (because you remained in stealth mode).

[parvo]

I hate this change as well..... You Just attacked someone, Everyone near should be able to see you at that point. WHle this may be interesting for the folks that choose Way of the Assassin, Mechanic and Acrobat Rogues get screwed. WHen i sneak up to something (Like a Beholder) I want to hit him with my W/E COmbo, and then rapidly attack him until hes at 0 str. Remaining in sneak mode slows down my attack progression significantly.

If Assassins think this is a great chage, then Implement this only for Assasins.

I don't like it either and it makes zero sense. I'm standing right beside a beast, swing at it and my rapier clanks off it's tough armor, yet I try and remain stealthed? It's not right. Why did anyone want this change in the first place?

[GeneralDiomedes]

If you wound an opponent, that particular opponent will know where you are and will scream its head off to its friends

How about some monster sounds to that effect when it happens? 'Hey Grukh! I'm dyin ovah here!'

[parvo]

You have not been detected by nearby monsters.

So theoretically, if you (or someone else) kills the one monster you didn't take down in one shot, you are free to sneak attack or assassinate nearby stuff that didn't detect you (because you remained in stealth mode).

The act of swinging a weapon never broke stealth before. Hitting the mob did, but just coming out of stealth doesn't alert nearby mobs unless they can see you. You can stand right behind a mob, unstealth and it won't agro unless you move (thereby making a noise the mob can hear). The problem is when a mob gets hit, the other nearby mobs are automatically aggro'ed on the attacker, regardless of stealth. I haven't tested this tonight, but unless they changed the aggro mechanic, this change makes things worse on the Thief.

[Starspawn]

I have to weigh in that I don't like this change either. I used to always sneak in for the first attack when possible but now that you don't drop out of sneak when you attack makes it difficult to simulate the surprise round, followed by your full action. Instead you get a slow moving, slow attacking round that only encourages never turning on sneak in the first place unless you are an assassin using assassinate.

I can attack and stay sneaky but you took away my sneaky tumbling. What's the DDO world coming to?

Wait a minute. Give me back my tumble sneak now!!! :p

[parvo]

You must be joking, right? Surely you cannot seriously mean to say it's equivalent? It's really simple: once you've been seen, going back into stealth mode will not erase you from the monster's memory.

I have another question: have you actually tried this change?

The real question isn't whether Impaqt has tried the change. The real question is whether Eladrin has. Last I checked if you kill a mob in one shot, everything around it aggros on the attacker, not investigate the area. If the aggro mechanic has been changed, this gives a whole new reason for ranged combat and spells from a distance.

[Angelus_dead]

Last tiem I checked, once youhave aggro, you've already been detected.
No. That was already explained above.

[Black_Flamingo]

From what I've seen, it's all about distance. If the enemies are close (about haste close, I'd say, for a standard measurement), they'll simply aggro, but if you one shot from a sufficient distance, they'll hear it and investigate, but no straight aggro.

The two things that affect this the worst: the fine line between close enough to hit with assasinate, and close enough to touch (and thus aggro the enemy and everything around it), and teleporting enemies (investigating is much more painful when imediately after an assasination, a devil or three pops up on your head).

[Kromize]

Have to tumble back or manually hit the hotkey to break stealth, both which waste precious seconds, in order to get to normal attack speed.

And bring back tumbling while stealthed too!


First of all, I have no clue how it could possibly take half a second to push a button, just get used to it and it will seem normal...be normal...

But yes, I agree that the stay stealthed should be a toggle-able ability/option. could be put into the UI menu...


And tumbling while stealthed, I dunno what it was like in pnp. But I hardly think that somebody can possibly be silent while tumbling, would be pretty hard, with your arms, legs, back hitting the ground and all. And if your wearing chain, or even plate armor, wow, no way. I don't care if it was a joke or not, your crazee. :D

[Aeneas]

as long as the mobs are a about a haste ring away and not facing you, you have a pretty good chance at assassinating the first guy, staying hidden, waiting 15 seconds, and trashing his buddy.

If the mobs are very close together, aim for the middle point and kill them both with one twf swing.

[Inspire]

The act of swinging a weapon never broke stealth before. Hitting the mob did, but just coming out of stealth doesn't alert nearby mobs unless they can see you. You can stand right behind a mob, unstealth and it won't agro unless you move (thereby making a noise the mob can hear). The problem is when a mob gets hit, the other nearby mobs are automatically aggro'ed on the attacker, regardless of stealth. I haven't tested this tonight, but unless they changed the aggro mechanic, this change makes things worse on the Thief.

Perhaps You Should Think Of It Like Slitting The Mobs Throat, Or Thrusting The Blade Vertically Upwards Through The Jaw And Skull Rather Than The Animation, Which Is Like A Kidney Attack(Which Could Be Fatal However Much Less Efficient) And Is Usually Followed With A "Yelp" From Said Beastie.

[Uska]

I dont wear rouge and neither does my wife:D

[Ganak]

If you decide to take WotA II, you might not be so down on Stealth. :D

True.

Myself I took acrobat on my re-rolled, now lvl 11 rogue, considering most go Assassin. I pride myself on doing things a bit differently with my build. I've also been a very heavy stealth user w my rogue builds. I'm the rogue stealthed before we enter into quests.

Hey devs, this change hinders my playstyle. I'm adjusting by tumbling backwards then forwards after my initial strike. It is 1 second, but it makes a difference, and its annoying to boot.

Towards the end of my gaming time yesterday, I was giving up on being stealthed and just following the beef in. :(

I think the change, while well meaning, was narrow in focus. Get a toggle in the works please for this.

[Talcyndl]

The problem is when a mob gets hit, the other nearby mobs are automatically aggro'ed on the attacker, regardless of stealth. I haven't tested this tonight, but unless they changed the aggro mechanic, this change makes things worse on the Thief.

They don't anymore - at least not when you successfully use Assassinate. As I said, I was able to assassinate, for example, an Orthon in the Vale. He died, I remained stealthed, nearby monster (within my visual and targeting range but not right next to me), usually remained unaware of me. A few times that wasn't the case if they were really close. And I want to test it more, but when something saved against the assassinate attack, stuff around seemed to aggro more (which would make sense).

[Talcyndl]

If the mobs are very close together, aim for the middle point and kill them both with one twf swing.


I was surprised in the Shroud when I was able to assassinate a Portal Keeper and the guy next to him on one attack.

[Talcyndl]

If the aggro mechanic has been changed, this gives a whole new reason for ranged combat and spells from a distance.

I don't think it's an across the board change. It's a change related to stealth characters - and primarily for ones using WotA II.

[geoffhanna]

Surrounded by bad guys trying to separate her from her innards, the sneaking monk lamaly pokes at one of them in slow-motion.

blehh

First time I've ever rooted for a bad guy to just hurry up and hit me.

Plus this change kind of violates a long-held tenet of PnP. Attacking breaks conceal. It just does.

In a perfect world:

If you do get the one-shot, and if no opponents can see your victim, you return to stealth mode unnoticed (but you have to roll a HARD move silent)
If you do get the one-shot, and opponents can see your victim, they roll to find you with a huge circumstance bonus
If you do not get the one-shot, the opponent knows you are there and tells all his buddies

Now if that could be implemented, cool. But if not, please just go back to what we had.

[Talcyndl]

I have to weigh in that I don't like this change either. I used to always sneak in for the first attack when possible


Then pick up WotA II.

Trust me, if that's your play style, you'll love it...and this change once you get used to it.

[Talcyndl]

If you do get the one-shot, and if no opponents can see your victim, you return to stealth mode unnoticed (but you have to roll a HARD move silent)
If you do get the one-shot, and opponents can see your victim, they roll to find you with a huge circumstance bonus
If you do not get the one-shot, the opponent knows you are there and tells all his buddies

Now if that could be implemented, cool. But if not, please just go back to what we had.

That is basically how it works.

1 and 2 are successful Assassinate attacks. Depending on distance (and your stealth skills and th monsters spot), you remain in stealth mode and hidden from them.

3 is what happens, when you fail the assassinate. People are complaining that you stay in stealth mode however. I think it makes some sense. After all, you are trying to remain stealthed, assuming/hoping the one shot will kill your target. If it fails, you are still trying to hide, until you affirmatively decide not to be. And btw, you may still be able to slip back into the shadows if your skills are high enough (and the monster has a crappy spot check).

[Turial]

What else do you think should have happened?

At one point there was a bug that was allowing damage to go off before rogue sneak attack which essentially made it so rogues using additional damage pre-fix mods, such as flaming, were unable to get sneak attack damage. Im wondering if the application of damage prior to the assassinate ability is intended and if that damage application allows for the damaged mob to communicate with his friends prior to the assassinate ability triggering on the same strike.

Its the difference between being able to kill something and stay undetected and killing something but having all his buddies bee line for you dispite your stealth skills.

Attack A: Damage from weapon applies and mob makes a sound because it was hurt, sound calls friends over, and then the WOTA2 attack applies killing it, Mobs friends know where you are without having to search (mobs do not engage in seach animations).

or

Attack B: Mob forced to make save vs WOTA2, mob fails and dies. Mobs in proximity are only curious as to why he is dead. (mobs engage in search animations, same as if they had heard you but not seen you)

From what I have seen it follows attack A when the discriptions for the abilities used seem to indicate that attack B is how it should work.

[Talcyndl]

At one point there was a bug that was allowing damage to go off before rogue sneak attack which essentially made it so rogues using additional damage pre-fix mods, such as flaming, were unable to get sneak attack damage. Im wondering if the application of damage prior to the assassinate ability is intended and if that damage application allows for the damaged mob to communicate with his friends prior to the assassinate ability triggering on the same strike.

Its the difference between being able to kill something and stay undetected and killing something but having all his buddies bee line for you dispite your stealth skills.

Attack A: Damage from weapon applies and mob makes a sound because it was hurt, sound calls friends over, and then the WOTA2 attack applies killing it, Mobs friends know where you are without having to search (mobs do not engage in seach animations).

or

Attack B: Mob forced to make save vs WOTA2, mob fails and dies. Mobs in proximity are only curious as to why he is dead. (mobs engage in search animations, same as if they had heard you but not seen you)

From what I have seen it follows attack A when the discriptions for the abilities used seem to indicate that attack B is how it should work.

Not my experience. Even when nearby stuff was alerted, they didn't immediately know where I was (at least not until I got hit and came out of stealth).

[Aspenor]

Not my experience. Even when nearby stuff was alerted, they didn't immediately know where I was (at least not until I got hit and came out of stealth).

Depends on how close you are.

Just for giggles, I took my lonely rogue into the Shroud to test this against the devil scouting force in part 1. I found you certainly cannot assassinate on monster standing only a couple paces from another without the second knowing exactly where you are ;)

[Talcyndl]

Depends on how close you are.

Just for giggles, I took my lonely rogue into the Shroud to test this against the devil scouting force in part 1. I found you certainly cannot assassinate on monster standing only a couple paces from another without the second knowing exactly where you are ;)

Ok. I wasn't that suicidal in my testing. :D

I assume everyone agrees that such a result is reasonable?

And btw, as part of this, it seems easier to lose contact even after being spotted. I know when I assassinated the named Devil in the Vale (the one near Coalescence), I got aggro from a few of his friends who were close by. After being hit and being pulled out of stealth, I ran for the water. After swimming to a different landing and healing up :D I was able to reenter sneak, and make it back to the chest, past all the stuff that had been chasing me before. I was then able to assassinate the 2 Devils and 2 Orthons that were spaced around the chest area. Each time without being detected by the remaining ones (who weren't that close).

[miceelf88]

My impression from my limited experience post patch is that the monster you hit (or another monster) hitting you will break stealth. I assume this is as intended, but important for people to know.

Interesting side note- breaking barrels doesn't break stealth.

[Talcyndl]

My impression from my limited experience post patch is that the monster you hit (or another monster) hitting you will break stealth. I assume this is as intended, but important for people to know.

Interesting side note- breaking barrels doesn't break stealth.

Yes, GETTING hit still breaks stealth.

[Turial]

Depends on how close you are.

Just for giggles, I took my lonely rogue into the Shroud to test this against the devil scouting force in part 1. I found you certainly cannot assassinate on monster standing only a couple paces from another without the second knowing exactly where you are ;)

This has been my testing ground as well. Even with maxed stealth skills they know exactly where you are without needing to search and the discriptions seem to indicate they would have to look for you first. Instead they teleport right on top of you and well...you know the rest of the story.

I've also tested this on non-teleporting mobs with lower search and listen abilities, trolls in the vale and gnolls in the desert (who I can walk up to and give the finger to in the face), and they still know right where I am after a successful WOTA2 kill.

[Talcyndl]

This has been my testing ground as well. Even with maxed stealth skills they know exactly where you are without needing to search and the discriptions seem to indicate they would have to look for you first. Instead they teleport right on top of you and well...you know the rest of the story.

I've also tested this on non-teleporting mobs with lower search and listen abilities, trolls in the vale and gnolls in the desert (who I can walk up to and give the finger to in the face), and they still know right where I am after a successful WOTA2 kill.

What are your actual Move Silent and Hide skills?

Have you tried invisibility? That seems to help me.

[llevenbaxx]

What are your actual Move Silent and Hide skills?

Have you tried invisibility? That seems to help me.

Doesnt invis end as soon as you generate an attack roll though? Or are you talking after you assasinate something?

[Talcyndl]

Doesnt invis end as soon as you generate an attack roll though? Or are you talking after you assasinate something?

Good question. I use it mainly to make it easier to get in position...but you're right, if it still breaks on attack (and assassinate counts), it wouldn't matter for Turial's issue.

[Talcyndl]

Did some testing out in the Desert...

With a 57 Hide and 44 Move Silent:

http://img366.imageshack.us/img366/4885/skillsjg9.jpg

I sneak up and get in position, with second monster reasonably close:

http://img361.imageshack.us/img361/1017/prekill2pp0.jpg

Assassinate him and second monster just stands there:

http://img382.imageshack.us/img382/4135/postkill2nb8.jpg

[Black_Flamingo]

Alright, I have a question for both those who've been succesful evading notice, and those who haven't; what race are you?

I've been testing it a while, and, as a halfling, I can't get close enough to actually hit my target without activating the touch-detection, and aggroing. If I'm fast, I can get sneak attack (and assasinate) in, before they actually aggro on me, but this still leaves me detected (IE no sneak attack, they go to recent locations, the same as rehiding with invisibility) by those around them.

Could it be that halflings, with a shorter armspan and range, got the short end of the stick, and can't live up to their assasiny dreams?

[Eelpout]

Did some testing out in the Desert...

With a 57 Hide and 44 Move Silent:

http://img366.imageshack.us/img366/4885/skillsjg9.jpg

I sneak up and get in position, with second monster reasonably close:

http://img361.imageshack.us/img361/1017/prekill2pp0.jpg

Assassinate him and second monster just stands there:

http://img382.imageshack.us/img382/4135/postkill2nb8.jpg

I think the real question these screenshots bring up is did you take up Niloy on his generous offer??:D

[Turial]

What are your actual Move Silent and Hide skills?

Have you tried invisibility? That seems to help me.

+19 ranks
+9 dex
+15 for a greater shadow/move silently items
+4 GH
+2 head of good fortune
+4 Rogue IV Hide and Sneak
+2 WOTA2 bonus
= 55 each

In your screen shots I notice that your targets are a further appart from the ones I was originally testing for spacing. In instances like you show I have no issues with being noticed. Try doing it in the cramped quarters of the first gnoll outpost as if you were going through the canyon to offering of blood. In that first area where they are all within 30 feet of each other I have been unable to kill one instantly without the rest seeing me without a search animation.

Also invisibility is a double edged sword for sneaking. Those that have see invisibility seem to see you even if you are hiding when invisibility is up.

[ahpook]

This has been my testing ground as well. Even with maxed stealth skills they know exactly where you are without needing to search and the discriptions seem to indicate they would have to look for you first. Instead they teleport right on top of you and well...you know the rest of the story.

I've also tested this on non-teleporting mobs with lower search and listen abilities, trolls in the vale and gnolls in the desert (who I can walk up to and give the finger to in the face), and they still know right where I am after a successful WOTA2 kill.

I finally got a chance to try this in the vale.

I snuck up on a sleeping Osaran with a banisher (don't have WotAII yet). It took about three or four swings to kill him but he died before swinging on me and I never broke stealth. (FWIW - My first few swings did do some damage). Normally when I kill Osaran, I have to kill the two scorpions in the area as well as they join the battle as soon as I unstealth.

However, in this case, I moved backward as soon as Osaran died and the scorps scuttled in, poked around where I just killed the cat and then scuttled back to their original spots having been unable to locate me in the area. So they were aware of something, but had no idea where I moved to and gave up. Only one case so far, so it could be an anomaly but I liked what I experienced.

For the record - My rogue is halfling with hide and move silently in the 40s.

[Angelus_dead]

Could it be that halflings, with a shorter armspan and range, got the short end of the stick, and can't live up to their assasiny dreams?
Nope, halflings have no trouble hitting with a sneak attack without first bumping into the monster. In fact, it seems possible that module 7 increased melee reach overall.

To easily test this, just hold down the mouse button so you continually attack while you sneak around. Edge up to the monster, and you'll see connecting with it before you touch. Of course, if the monster is fidgety and walks around on his own he might bump into you, but that's a separate issue.

[Angelus_dead]

Surrounded by bad guys trying to separate her from her innards, the sneaking monk lamaly pokes at one of them in slow-motion.
What put you in slow-motion? The Sneak-mode attack rate is barely slower than the normal rate, so you must have been hit with some kind of debuff.


First time I've ever rooted for a bad guy to just hurry up and hit me.
Why'd you want to get hit? To drop Sneak mode? Just press the same icon you used to activate Sneak mode. It takes ZERO time: the transition is buffered on the server and is finished sooner than the first sneak-attack animation is over.

[Brianius]

Trying to assassinate things withing a close to very close range should draw aggro the thump from the body you just slew should attract any friends and or family that sprite had.

[Black_Flamingo]

Alright, I've done some more testing on my halfling, made a warforge, and while I think there is a difference in attack range, it's minimal, and I have succesfully snuck at gnolls. (I believe my problem was that I was attacking from the front, instead of the back, where the auto-aggro area is presumably smaller. I could hit before aggro from that side, but they aggroed before I hit from the front).

I do wonder how much effort it would be to replace the current "know you're there, but hiding" mechanism with the "I heard something" mechanism of breakables smashing that would seem more appropriate.

[Talcyndl]

In your screen shots I notice that your targets are a further appart from the ones I was originally testing for spacing. In instances like you show I have no issues with being noticed.


Ok, so it seems to be an issue of distance, not weapon effects or another bug.

Seems to be working as intended in that case.

[Talcyndl]

Alright, I've done some more testing on my halfling, made a warforge, and while I think there is a difference in attack range, it's minimal, and I have succesfully snuck at gnolls. (I believe my problem was that I was attacking from the front, instead of the back, where the auto-aggro area is presumably smaller. I could hit before aggro from that side, but they aggroed before I hit from the front).

I do wonder how much effort it would be to replace the current "know you're there, but hiding" mechanism with the "I heard something" mechanism of breakables smashing that would seem more appropriate.

Yeah, the screenshots above are with my halfling.

[Turial]

Trying to assassinate things withing a close to very close range should draw aggro the thump from the body you just slew should attract any friends and or family that sprite had.

Well I'll put it this way...your standing there with your friends and you turn away. You hear a thump and turn around the find your friend dead....his/her throat cut with no evidence of what happened.

Aggro in this case means that dispite not knowing what happened you some how know where the thing is that did this and move right to it dispite having never seen it or knowing its location prior.

The search and destroy responce is what most people would expect...my friend is dead..I will start searching for what did this and kill it. Things near something that just got assissinated kinda skip this step and go directly to aggro which doesnt make sense.

I can make lots of noise and noise pull mobs and never once have they aggroed on me until I purposefully revealed myself. Now if the devs would stop in and just say.."oh yeah by the way if you kill something in sneak mode there is a large penalty to staying hidden, say -20 (like pnp), if his friends are nearby" then what I have seen would make sense.

All they have said is:
Way of the Assassin II special Assassinate attack is now working properly.
Sneak attacks no longer automatically draw you out of stealth mode. Note that your target will know where you are and will likely take great offense to being stabbed if you didn’t kill them outright.

[Turial]

Ok, so it seems to be an issue of distance, not weapon effects or another bug.

Seems to be working as intended in that case.

Well drat. Oh well I guess it goes back to more pulling and more practice to see if I can get crafty kills like I was hopeing for.

[Rog]

I don't agree. While some may like this, I hate it.

This may not be intended, but enemies around the one you just stabbed, even if it was a 1-hit kill, will see you just fine as well and start shooting you, which makes this pretty much useless in any situation I would have used it. On top of that, playing in a party you should be trying to maintain sneak attack on things, and if you were in sneak mode to start off with an assassinate or just not to draw initial agro, you will stay in a slow moving, slow attacking state until you press the sneak button again or lose sneak attack, which could take a while especially if you are using a blinding radiance weapon.

I would find this useful if it didnt draw other enemies agro until you had been attacked by the one you stabbed, but as of right now it just makes me inefficient. I would at least like an option to turn this feature off on a per character basis.

I must say stay in the shadows and practice the arts and you be suprized who will see you and who will not how many victims have found themselfs looking around asking how that happen as the rog smiles and walks away.
silentfoot

[Starspawn]

Then pick up WotA II.

Trust me, if that's your play style, you'll love it...and this change once you get used to it.
I'm a Way of the Mechanic Rogue. I'm not an assassin. I get the first attack in just cause I can but then I want to open up a 2 weapon strength rogue can of whoopa** on the mob. That's what I love to do. One shot assassinations are not my thing.

[Talcyndl]

I'm a Way of the Mechanic Rogue. I'm not an assassin. I get the first attack in just cause I can but then I want to open up a 2 weapon strength rogue can of whoopa** on the mob. That's what I love to do. One shot assassinations are not my thing.

Fair enough. I had WotM before yesterday.

But with WotA II I like not having to worry about the whoopa.. part. They just die.

:D

[parvo]

They don't anymore - at least not when you successfully use Assassinate. As I said, I was able to assassinate, for example, an Orthon in the Vale. He died, I remained stealthed, nearby monster (within my visual and targeting range but not right next to me), usually remained unaware of me. A few times that wasn't the case if they were really close. And I want to test it more, but when something saved against the assassinate attack, stuff around seemed to aggro more (which would make sense).

Is this what this change was all about? What about all the other sneaky characters who don't have Assasinate?

[bobbryan2]

Ok, I can't even kill a sleeping target in a room full of sleeping targets without aggroing them all, and having them beeline it towards me.

Shouldn't they get some sort of spot penalty while asleep?

[Jadeare]

There are two sides to this ability.

Sneak up to poor unsuspecting critter of doom, assassinate, dead. Close to his mates? hey they can see blood gushing out of his jugular. I don't care how good your hide you're 10ft away and I am on to you. I will now kill you. Or, if they are 30ft away? Hmm, Dorothy just fell over, probably a touch of heat stroke, better go check on her. Oh noes!! she is bleeding.... and not breathing... wonder how that happened. Best i aggressively search this area for a perpetrator of this vile crime. For Dorothy!!!!

This ability shouldnt be the way to win every quest and it isnt. If you could kill a kobold sleeping next to his mate and move on that would be tops, but i dont mind so much if you cant. Ill sleep tonight without trouble about that.

The more exciting and possibly applicable side of this ability is the in combat side. So your rampaging along with your group when suddenly a flenser takes a liking to the cometfall bladebarrier heal spell guy. You dash on over, hit sneak (which takes a very very short time and is on my mouse so it is easy to do in combat) and hit assassinate. Bamo, dead critter and the cleric will probably buy you a beer after the battle for your heroic yet nefarious deed.... or not. Now, i've used this on ancient beholders, teleporting diabolical devils of doom and/or destruction, and fantastic flenser with frivolous features. It works, it take a bit of skill, but hey we play rogues. If we do it well we are no stranger to skillful play.

If the assassinate doesnt go off, or you are just seeking to sneak attack and then unleash the fury of your twf of doom (i'd like to agree with AD here, it aint much slower) then put sneak (if its important to you put it somewhere easy, Q is a good key to bind things to) somewhere to hit easily, it doesnt take any time.

Now some people will argue assassinate isnt meant to work like that. Well it takes skill to use like that, if that isnt a good enough caveat on a pretty cool skill then maybe you should send your vorpal and wop to me on khyber. Kobacious will have em.

[geoffhanna]

In a perfect world:

If you do get the one-shot, and if no opponents can see your victim, you return to stealth mode unnoticed (but you have to roll a HARD move silent)
If you do get the one-shot, and opponents can see your victim, they roll to find you with a huge circumstance bonus
If you do not get the one-shot, the opponent knows you are there and tells all his buddies

Now if that could be implemented, cool. But if not, please just go back to what we had.

That is basically how it works.

1 and 2 are successful Assassinate attacks. Depending on distance (and your stealth skills and th monsters spot), you remain in stealth mode and hidden from them.

3 is what happens, when you fail the assassinate. People are complaining that you stay in stealth mode however. I think it makes some sense. After all, you are trying to remain stealthed, assuming/hoping the one shot will kill your target. If it fails, you are still trying to hide, until you affirmatively decide not to be. And btw, you may still be able to slip back into the shadows if your skills are high enough (and the monster has a crappy spot check).

No, that is not at all how it works. As a reminder, this is the way it is implemented now:


Surrounded by bad guys trying to separate her from her innards, the sneaking monk lamaly pokes at one of them in slow-motion.

blehh

First time I've ever rooted for a bad guy to just hurry up and hit me.


I attack something, and I am immediately swarmed by everything else in the room; it doesn't matter whether I incapacitate my target. I am at immediate disadvantage because I am still in stealth mode.

Tal, I get that you are heavily in favor of the change. But I am not, and I remain unconvinced. I have to assume that Mystic Theurge has moved on to greener games because there is no way he'd let this slide:



Plus this change kind of violates a long-held tenet of PnP. Attacking breaks conceal. It just does.


I like that Turbine is trying to upgrade the rogue, but the way to do it is to make more quests completable without killing everything in the quest. Not by varying even more from the PnP rules, and not by implemeting something that makes sneaking even LESS useful than it was - except for a very small percent of characters under very specific circumstances.

[Jadeare]

I'd just like to add that i understand why people don't like that it doesn't turn off and that i think that it should be a toggle as well.

[Talcyndl]

The more exciting and possibly applicable side of this ability is the in combat side. So your rampaging along with your group when suddenly a flenser takes a liking to the cometfall bladebarrier heal spell guy. You dash on over, hit sneak (which takes a very very short time and is on my mouse so it is easy to do in combat) and hit assassinate. Bamo, dead critter and the cleric will probably buy you a beer after the battle for your heroic yet nefarious deed.... or not. Now, i've used this on ancient beholders, teleporting diabolical devils of doom and/or destruction, and fantastic flenser with frivolous features. It works, it take a bit of skill, but hey we play rogues. If we do it well we are no stranger to skillful play.

Hoping to get my rogue out for some practice with this.

[Talcyndl]

I attack something, and I am immediately swarmed by everything else in the room


Then you're doing something wrong. If they are at an appropriate distance, they don't immediately swarm you. Now if you came out of stealth automatically, they would.

As it is, if you get aggro, you're one (hopefully convienent) button press (or getting hit) away from non-sneak mode.

[Cap_Man]

I would like to see this work as follows:

Your stealth mode is only maintained if you one shot the mob (via assassinate, banish, vorpal, damage ... whatever). If your target survives the first hit (or maybe first two for a TWF rogue) then you should break stealth.

Either that or have this ability as an option you can turn off.

[Ganak]

How about making sneak not break when opening levers/doors?

[Valiance]

Ok on further testing I like this change. A toggle option would be best but this new mechanic is not bad at all.

I don't even play a rogue. I play a 9wiz/6ranger/1fighter with stunning blow and high stealth skills. Sneak up to the mob, stunning blow, remain stealthed and kill him over the next 1 or 2 stealthed "double" swings. Nearby friends DO NOT immediately aggro. They will make they're way over to investigate the area. If you have vacated the area by the time they get there and they do not TOUCH you. You stay 100% stealthed and without agro. Get behiind another one, stunning blow, rinse repeat.

On a side note there is a bug where if they don't immediately find you and keep searching sometimes you can come out of stealth and they STILL can't find you. They just continue to perform they're search animation while you pound on them.

[kamimitsu]

I just spent a few hours testing this in The Vale, Gianthold, and a few quests. My results assume that your one-shot kill is successful, and are as follows:

Target's friends far away (30ft or more)- no aggro
Target's friends between 10ft-30ft- search mode
Target's friends less than 10ft away- aggro (it's possible that there is a quick search and bumping, but appears almost instantaneous)

Now, here's the interesting part...
Target's friend is an archer less than 30ft away- instant shooting (which I believe means 'aggro'. Even if they missed the first few shots and I was moving, they kept me targeted and eventually hit me)
Target's friend can teleport and is less than 30ft away- teleport to your location, bump, aggro (nearly instantly).

The search mode for close creatures (15-20ft or so) is very difficult to evade successfully (I had Faster Sneaking II and 25% striding), unless there is a corner or other obstruction to get behind (and **** quickly). I may see about investing in Faster Sneaking III (or IV) to see if this helps, but I"ll have to wait another day or so.

Shiz

[geoffhanna]

More people use sneakmode than just assassins. Seriously, if you don't get the one-shot incapacitate this is really an undesirable change.

I strongly prefer that this change be made to toggle.

[parvo]

More people use sneakmode than just assassins. Seriously, if you don't get the one-shot incapacitate this is really an undesirable change.

I strongly prefer that this change be made to toggle.

Exactly. This change really isn't necessary. It doesn't make sense. If the AI has been changed to not insta-agro on the killer, than the Assasin just needs to make sure he's not in line of sight and go back into sneak mode right away.

Another thing...ranged weapons auto-break sneak mode, adding to the confusing play mechanic.

[Talcyndl]

Exactly. This change really isn't necessary. It doesn't make sense. If the AI has been changed to not insta-agro on the killer, than the Assasin just needs to make sure he's not in line of sight and go back into sneak mode right away.

That really wouldn't work in many (probably most) situations where a rogue is using assassinate. I can see the request for a toggle, but the change is very useful for a lot of folks.

[Angelus_dead]

Exactly. This change really isn't necessary. It doesn't make sense. If the AI has been changed to not insta-agro on the killer, than the Assasin just needs to make sure he's not in line of sight and go back into sneak mode right away.
And how do you propose us PLAYERS redraw the maps to remove lines of sight between every pair of monsters?

[vyrank]

I really dislike the not coming out of stealth. It really hampers my fighter and I really don't care for it is a Rogue. Could we make it a selectable option or a special (super sneaky) stealth mode?

It has caused great difficulties if you miss your opponent and then trying to get turned back around and out of sneak mode. It is NOT an improvement in my opinion.

[Montrose]

I've had the same bad experiences with assassinate. Kill something with buddies near by and they turn and swarm immediately. This makes it far less useful than just playing my wizard where I can dismiss/banish/finger/pk mobs standing right next to one another with no worries.

Setting: The base camp in the vale
Situation 1: I play my rogue, sneak in and assassinante one of the devils. Everything else aggros on me and kills me
Situation 2: I play my wizard and walk up to the log which overlooks the basecamp. In full daylight unsneakified I slowly walk closer until the devils are in range of banish (or I hit the easy button and turn on enlarge). I dismiss/banish/pk/FoD one of the devils. The other devils just stand there.

[query]

they'd complain that it is messing up their $25,000 rug they stood on first, or the cone isn't properly shaped, or the bowl breaks the taste of the ice cream first....


While I would say "thank you" with my napkins, sitting down, and spooning the ice cream not hitting the bowl or actually holding the cone CORRECTLY and NOT biting it first..........

*Goes off and gets ice cream*

What was the topic again? Oh right, the WOTA II fix.


People, I have several rogues and mixed rogues. Races from Warforged to halfling. It works, learn how to sneak, and learn the distance where it doesn't matter HOW invisible "in sneak mode" you are as they HEARD you or DEFINATELY WILL KNOW WHERE YOU ARE. DO that act JUST outside that range. Range varies on BOTH Hide AND Move Silently. Remember that last one? I swear some rogues move like a Sousa Marching Band invisible or not. That goes for the rest of you "stealty" classes as well.


And here's Assassination 101:

After you kill the target, the assassin IMMEDIATELY leaves the place they were in. When authorities find the assassination spot (and they will eventually if anybody notices that death,) the assassin is not near there EVEN WHEN the enremy is closing in.

In some horrible chance they are seen, the assassin knows how to STOP being tracked long enough to re-hide.

Else, they are normally not a good assassin and are just a quiet killer, and many end up as dead as their intended target, especially when alone.


Now, do I need to get some of my evil PC's to show what happens?


The'll most likely try to kill us all for me breaking their invisible cover you know........

Edit: almost forgot--
*Puts on Rouge makeup to the rest of those people*

There. You may die, but you look FABULOUS!