Its not the class its the player behind it

[Kalari]

K im bored waiting for my dinner to finish cooking so im reading forum posts and all and im seeing alot of "whats the purpose of monks?" and are monks a useless class stuff. Granted I have a monk dont really play her right now due to getting a cleric to a decent level and getting my main into raids and all. But it saddens me that people are once again taking a class and asking whats its usefulness.

I havent been here long but ive seen it done to Paladins and Rogues as well unless their is some ubber trap that is. I dont care what class a person plays a good player will make the best of any class they play. While a bad player will make an already pariahed class or build bad period. Now before people jump on me what I think is bad play is:

1. you join a group we try a strategic plan but you decide "oh my build is so good I can run ahead and get the job done" only to die horribly. Ive seen this happen so much that I have to keep my finger off the push to talk not to become very unlady like with the player doing this.

2. you spend more time bragging about your build during the quests then actually contributing to anything..yeah its cool you can get a 50 ac unbuffed but when were trying to take a freaking horde of creatures down id rather you focus on that k thanks.

3. you have the attitude that people are supposed to keep you up even if your purposely drawing aggro you cant handle. And im sorry ive seen many classes do this especially people playing casters for the first time. And hell my caster when I first learned had to learn to aggro manage. If your squishy you need to learn when to and not to hit things nuff said.

I dont act like im a perfect player in fact, I mess up I admit it and I learn from when I do mess up, and I play several classes all with their strengths and weaknesses. I know there have been times I fireballed the wrong group of mobs, pulled the wrong guy on my bow user and missed a trap by walking into it (blush). So why not use my magooness to say all <insert class here> are awful? I would never want my actions from learning to make others think an entire class is useless.

Yet because there are some monks out there that maybe able to punch the heck out of a mob but cant take a hit worth a darn they are all lumped into the useless catogory and that saddens me. I just hope that people out there get that in a good group Pug or with people you know things can go bad or smooth depending on who is behind that little animation on your screen. Id rather group with a player (s) with a good attitude that actually looks out for the people they are in a quest with no matter how bad a build then be with an uber person who brags and is obnoxious. I just hope this build bias goes away it takes the fun out of things IMO.

[DoctorWhofan]

well said and true.

[Rameses]

K im bored waiting for my dinner to finish cooking so im reading forum posts and all and im seeing alot of "whats the purpose of monks?" and are monks a useless class stuff. Granted I have a monk dont really play her right now due to getting a cleric to a decent level and getting my main into raids and all. But it saddens me that people are once again taking a class and asking whats its usefulness.

I havent been here long but ive seen it done to Paladins and Rogues as well unless their is some ubber trap that is. I dont care what class a person plays a good player will make the best of any class they play. While a bad player will make an already pariahed class or build bad period. Now before people jump on me what I think is bad play is:

1. you join a group we try a strategic plan but you decide "oh my build is so good I can run ahead and get the job done" only to die horribly. Ive seen this happen so much that I have to keep my finger off the push to talk not to become very unlady like with the player doing this.

2. you spend more time bragging about your build during the quests then actually contributing to anything..yeah its cool you can get a 50 ac unbuffed but when were trying to take a freaking horde of creatures down id rather you focus on that k thanks.

3. you have the attitude that people are supposed to keep you up even if your purposely drawing aggro you cant handle. And im sorry ive seen many classes do this especially people playing casters for the first time. And hell my caster when I first learned had to learn to aggro manage. If your squishy you need to learn when to and not to hit things nuff said.

I dont act like im a perfect player in fact, I mess up I admit it and I learn from when I do mess up, and I play several classes all with their strengths and weaknesses. I know there have been times I fireballed the wrong group of mobs, pulled the wrong guy on my bow user and missed a trap by walking into it (blush). So why not use my magooness to say all <insert class here> are awful? I would never want my actions from learning to make others think an entire class is useless.

Yet because there are some monks out there that maybe able to punch the heck out of a mob but cant take a hit worth a darn they are all lumped into the useless catogory and that saddens me. I just hope that people out there get that in a good group Pug or with people you know things can go bad or smooth depending on who is behind that little animation on your screen. Id rather group with a player (s) with a good attitude that actually looks out for the people they are in a quest with no matter how bad a build then be with an uber person who brags and is obnoxious. I just hope this build bias goes away it takes the fun out of things IMO.

well said, but I must confess I zerg.
Can't help it. Today I was in a favor run of Slavers on my 16 Halfling Sneak Attack / Water Monk and I zerg'd (this is my normal thought for favor runs. Get them done fast.)
Turns out the group of level 16's I joined were not doing this for favor so much as getting titan ready.
I felt sheepish, then after apologizing and saying all someone had to do was say something. the party leader asked me to leave and solo the quest since I was so ew-ber. Mind you, no one has said anything at this point. D'oh!
Well I didn't leave I was commited this far and I was bound and determined to complete the quest.
And no I didn't die once even zerging. A good zerg rarely does as they are use to the set pace.
Just had to get that off my chest. While I felt bad at the same time all the party leader had to do was say...
LET's TAKE THIS SLOW...

I am, Rameses!

[Depravity]

well said and true.

I'd believe you more if I hadn't heard you break out "We only brought you along for this one locked door" on my rogue in a TS run. :p

That said, yes, I'd always rather have someone good playing a broken build than somebody with the uber numbers and no clue. Best complement I've received yet, imo, was use of the word "competent" in conjuction with my wizzy.

[Jmsalan]

Well were all human and there are many playing styles no matter what class is palyed. well if someone enjoys charging ahead they shoud expect to die and you always have the choice nhot to play with those people. the whole point is to have fun and everyones idea is different on that. Ya there will always be power gamers no matter what. Yes monks get clobbered as there armor class basically sucks but then even a 40 armr class sucks in this gam. It seems you need a 60 to be partially safe from getting hit. and lets not forget the lame amount of damage elite traps still do. Sure this game is far from perfect and if you like play the pen and paper game. Just have fun with friends.

Darvanus

[MTG]

I'd believe you more if I hadn't heard you break out "We only brought you along for this one locked door" on my rogue in a TS run. :p

That said, yes, I'd always rather have someone good playing a broken build than somebody with the uber numbers and no clue. Best complement I've received yet, imo, was use of the word "competent" in conjuction with my wizzy.

Hey it's 2 doors.

[DoctorWhofan]

I'd believe you more if I hadn't heard you break out "We only brought you along for this one locked door" on my rogue in a TS run. :p

That said, yes, I'd always rather have someone good playing a broken build than somebody with the uber numbers and no clue. Best complement I've received yet, imo, was use of the word "competent" in conjuction with my wizzy.

that's TWO locked doors, not one!! :p Rogues aren't needed in TS, but I don't care, I did invite you, right? And you did all the traps, right?

Regardless, I agree. Because build aren't as broke if played a good player. But how I love the new people, though. Just new, not bad, trying to break in their "shoes" in on a new game/quest/class.

[branmakmuffin]

Amen and a big thumbs up to the OP. We've all seen examples of your 1, 2 and 3. These same people exist in PnP, too, and are just as annoying there as they are in DDO.

[Kalari]

well said, but I must confess I zerg.
Can't help it. Today I was in a favor run of Slavers on my 16 Halfling Sneak Attack / Water Monk and I zerg'd (this is my normal thought for favor runs. Get them done fast.)
Turns out the group of level 16's I joined were not doing this for favor so much as getting titan ready.
I felt sheepish, then after apologizing and saying all someone had to do was say something. the party leader asked me to leave and solo the quest since I was so ew-ber. Mind you, no one has said anything at this point. D'oh!
Well I didn't leave I was commited this far and I was bound and determined to complete the quest.
And no I didn't die once even zerging. A good zerg rarely does as they are use to the set pace.
Just had to get that off my chest. While I felt bad at the same time all the party leader had to do was say...
LET's TAKE THIS SLOW...

I am, Rameses!

See I dont have a problem with actual zergers who know what they are doing. I even have it in my bio if your a zerg group just give me a warning up front so I know how to handle the situation or if im in the mood to. I know there are some quests that just go easier fast. What I hate and ive seen alot of despite class is the one guy who will zerg ahead not know how to handle a group of mobs and end up dead then rinse and repeat. That to me bothers me more then a group that rushes kills all the mobs and only need a few heals and maybe one raise or two. So dont worry im not knocking zergers anymore some of the most fun ive had is with groups that rush just like I have fun with those who stop and play with the butterflies. Id just really dont want to see whole classes blamed on the few that just cant get it together no matter how much proof they have that their style of play isnt working.


And I agree its all about having fun, and I dont knock anyone who is learning, its the ones who dont listen and think they know that bother the heck out of me. Meh im full from dinner so no more points made less I think of more lol.

[Madhatternynja2007]

I have to agree with the comments above as it goes for the player not the class/build and even sometimes the group dynamic. One such example is don't try to take on SC elite, lvl 8-9's, with 3 monks, 2 caster, and 1 cleric. Did that yesterday, no hard feelings towards anyone who may read this and KNOW the group I am talking about. Monks are awesome LOVE mine, they just need not to be broken, fix some of the things that should work that don't, like the sp reduction buff. Anyway, class/build/group are sometimes the only thing that saves a player from dying. But if that player is BAD, I mean not that they are worthless people, but they merely don't understand the dynamics of their build as they play them, and are making the rest of the party struggle to survive. I literally just run Cipher twice with my Cleric, first time EVER, once norm and then on hard. We had three deaths the whole quest, that was it, I was 2 lvls lower and didn't have raise dead. 3 deaths on my second run through on hard of a quest I don't know at all is not bad. Could have been better if trap would have been done quicker as I would have been able to heal the other group down below. But that is neither here or there, one died cause of purple thingies of specialness, I believe the other one did like that too, but not certain. So the player makes the class not the other way around.

[Borror0]

I'll just make a comment about monk/build.

A barbarian can't heal like a cleric, a paladin can't do traps, a fighter can't cast firewall.

There is a limit to what a build can do, there is a limit to what a class can do. That's where the monk/paladin/fighter comments are aimed at. Sadly, some classes suffer major issues at end game. For many reasons, any defensive build suffer problems at end game. They are not total gimps, of course, but they are less effective than DPS builds. There are three classes that are build around the assumption that they will be build for AC in this game, and for that reason they are simply less powerful.

If you don't build them for AC, you're currently going against what Turbine designed them for.

If you do, well it's not so easy. You must get all that loot for it, which is not so easy to come by and nearly impossible for a new player. And even if you do, your AC won't work everyone (Shroud Elite, for example) and your DPS is so much behind that it makes you much less effective. By inflating the damage two-handed and two-weapons figher do, Turbine has let S&B way behind. They'll have to do something about that.

And if you ask me, building a class around AC is flat out stupid in this game.

So, that what most of the monk comments are about. They are simply refering to the class' limit. Really a full party of monk will have problem completing quests because there is a limit to the AC they can have, and their DPS is too low for their own good. Clearly, fighters, paladins and monks are in need of some loving. They have strong points, let's not deny that... but they need some of their weaknesses to be adressed.

[Kalari]

Amen and a big thumbs up to the OP. We've all seen examples of your 1, 2 and 3. These same people exist in PnP, too, and are just as annoying there as they are in DDO.

Hehe dont get me started on the PNP guys, oh my <insert mixed classes from prestige books here> type character runs up to a black dragon and takes it down in one swing. Then when the DM says "um no you fail" they whine like little babies. Or worst the ones who sit with their own copy of the DMG or keep a PHB close so they can point out something wrong instead of just playing and having fun. In any game I host anyone dare touching said books without my go ahead gets a free blue bolt courtesy of me. Sigh I do miss PNP I think I had more fun grieving jerks then I did playing at times hehe.

Seriously though I understand people want to feel accomplished and it tickles me sometimes how some grown ups get excited over the "perfect build" but when it doesnt really equate to that and they end up dying more then helping and dont see the problem that is a bad thing. Because alot of times people see players like that an assume that the entire class is worthless. Ive grouped with Rangers who were amazing yet ive seen people deny them for groups. Rogues who can disarm a tough trap and take down red names with ease, and Paladins who not only helped me with healing but now can help with raise dead. Ive grouped with WF that not only kept the party safe but actually know what they are doing and can tell funny joke while getting the job done.

Good players those who enjoy the game even if they make mistakes will always be welcomed in any group I play in. But bad players come in any class or race and it is easy to lump their actions and shun others and it shouldnt be that way. Lately its monks and ive seen some bad monks, I mean really painfully bad ones that you can tell are trying but just dont get it. And the ones who are bad but dont see it and just keep going at it. But ive also seen really good ones that can deal out damage know how to handle what they are taking down and dont try to take on too much at once. So I wont be shunning monks or any players that are out to have fun cause its not the build its the player behind it.

LOL found more points still full gonna go play now ^_^

[Twerpp]

I think its the class, the build, the gear, and most importantly the player skills.

[branmakmuffin]

Seriously though I understand people want to feel accomplished and it tickles me sometimes how some grown ups get excited over the "perfect build" but when it doesnt really equate to that and they end up dying more then helping and dont see the problem that is a bad thing.
That's why I like RP/dedicated guilds. There's not so much angst about crafting the perfect build. My builds are RP builds, meaning I make them with stats/skills/feats/enhancement/spells that I like, without regard for whether it's a "gimp" build. Nearly all my characters have at least a 14 INT, regardless of class, because I like to have skill points.

[Kalari]

I'll just make a comment about monk/build.

A barbarian can't heal like a cleric, a paladin can't do traps, a fighter can't cast firewall.

There is a limit to what a build can do, there is a limit to what a class can do. That's where the monk/paladin/fighter comments are aimed at. Sadly, some classes suffer major issues at end game. For many reasons, any defensive build suffer problems at end game. They are not total gimps, of course, but they are less effective than DPS builds. There are three classes that are build around the assumption that they will be build for AC in this game, and for that reason they are simply less powerful.

If you don't build them for AC, you're currently going against what Turbine designed them for.

If you do, well it's not so easy. You must get all that loot for it, which is not so easy to come by and nearly impossible for a new player. And even if you do, your AC won't work everyone (Shroud Elite, for example) and your DPS is so much behind that it makes you much less effective. By inflating the damage two-handed and two-weapons figher do, Turbine has let S&B way behind. They'll have to do something about that.

And if you ask me, building a class around AC is flat out stupid in this game.

So, that what most of the monk comments are about. They are simply refering to the class' limit. Really a full party of monk will have problem completing quests because there is a limit to the AC they can have, and their DPS is too low for their own good. Clearly, fighters, paladins and monks are in need of some loving. They have strong points, let's not deny that... but they need some of their weaknesses to be adressed.

Should be sleeping but went to check after I logged from game and read this and I understand the point your making Borror0, but Im also seeing at even lower levels people already beginning to shun an entire class based on their assumptions on effectiveness. Now my main is a wizard, so people automatically assume spell bot, not only for buffing, but combat casting and the ocassional fod or pk. But as I was still learning to play her I was not as affective as a wizard as I am now or still could be compared to those who know. Now lets say Mages were a new class and people are getting them down because of my play skills and others who may not know you should make your mage supers smart, you start seeing lfms for no casters because they cant cast right. Seriously were squishy enough (less you build a wf or something with toughness). But you wont see bias like that too much because wizards/sorc can at least haste and cc if needed even if they cant combat worth a darn. I think that was the point you were making as well, my point was ive seen monks who well played can take on orange and red names.

Ive seen Paladins though I get why their are complaints about them needing love, who do a darn good job keeping a party up, and taking down mobs especially undead. And rangers and rogues who arent just trap monkeys or extra healers. But like monks those classes seemed to be lumped together and I think its due to people who make them that dont understand the build. Or people who play to come across as uber and still dont understand how to work within a team structure and fail miserably. Heck I could put all sorts of uber gear on all my girls and still botch things. The difference is if im learning and I mess up I try to learn from it not doing again purposely. But there are some who just think they are so good that even when its blantant they arent they go on and it gives the classes they play a bad name.

I just hate seeing people shun a class period, ive learned that there is no such thing as a perfect party make up. And that you can get the job done with builds that others wont touch. I guess it just bugs me that players are giving classes a hard time about end game issues when if given a chance many can and do just fine.

[Mistinarperadnacles]

3. you have the attitude that people are supposed to keep you up even if your purposely drawing aggro you cant handle. And im sorry ive seen many classes do this especially people playing casters for the first time. And hell my caster when I first learned had to learn to aggro manage. If your squishy you need to learn when to and not to hit things nuff said.

This right here is the reason my Clerics get sad. Even non-squishies and those melee types who feel that 600 hit points and 10 AC makes them godly need to take this on board.

[Sue_Dark]

Well were all human and there are many playing styles no matter what class is palyed. well if someone enjoys charging ahead they shoud expect to die and you always have the choice nhot to play with those people. the whole point is to have fun and everyones idea is different on that. Ya there will always be power gamers no matter what. Yes monks get clobbered as there armor class basically sucks but then even a 40 armr class sucks in this gam. It seems you need a 60 to be partially safe from getting hit. and lets not forget the lame amount of damage elite traps still do. Sure this game is far from perfect and if you like play the pen and paper game. Just have fun with friends.

Darvanus

Their AC sucks?? You have been running with some poor monks then. I watched a single monk hold agro and take down 2 waves of flech golems without a smiter in the optional room of fleshmaker's (after my sorc died cause I forgot lightening prot) He lasted thru 2 waves and then took a lucky hit that had him on the run for a bit.

Monks have the potential to have the very best AC in the game. Sounds like you need to get a clue, before you start runnin off at the mouth.

And no, I dont play a monk, I just have alot of friends who do.

[branmakmuffin]

Ive seen Paladins though I get why their are complaints about them needing love, who do a darn good job keeping a party up, and taking down mobs especially undead. And rangers and rogues who arent just trap monkeys or extra healers.
I remember ye olde dayes when no one wanted to group with Rangers or Bards because they were considered "generalists."

My beef with monks is not with the class per se, but with the way Turbine implemented it vis a vis PnP. I have no problem grouping with monks, I just don't want to make one.

Edit: my beef with WF is that they seem to powerful to me to be a PC race

[Borror0]

Their AC sucks?? You have been running with some poor monks then.

The problem is that AC is not-to-easy-to-get™
Once you get at higher level...

Shortly put, building a class around AC is dumbastic. Can't work in the game.

[Borror0]

I just hate seeing people shun a class period, ive learned that there is no such thing as a perfect party make up. And that you can get the job done with builds that others wont touch. I guess it just bugs me that players are giving classes a hard time about end game issues when if given a chance many can and do just fine.

That's false, at higher level, there are simply quests that can't be done with certain party make-ups.

But before you get there, ya, you're an idiot if you check off a class from your LFMs.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I think equipment and player are more important than class or build.

it amazes me how people think that only traditional tanks have Greater bane weps, vorpals, banisher....etc.

An elf wiz with no combat feats can dual wield dwarven axes of greater contruct bane and beat portals decently IMO.
But people don't think they can for some reason.

Same wizard can roll 20s on his vorpals just like everyone else (although he does have to confirm the crit).

I also don't know why all Sorcs are considered uber without question.....or all brbs.........without knowing anything about the player or his equipment. But some oddball multi-classed guy is automatically considered gimped.

Then there are monks.

too new for people to really know how to make/use a great one.
Too new to have bank fulls of uber monk items to twink one with.
And the devs are still in the "wait and see.....evaluation" frame of mind.

There will be changes to them, and equipment addded for them. And players will discover some really great ways to equip one and use one........it just takes time.

I never expected one to out DPS a raging twinked brb.

But I also have never put up an LFM for "Uber toons only!"

I'll take any 5 guys/gals who want to join me for any quest.
Some will struggle.
Some of those will get angry with each other and leave group.

Most will succeed. Some will sueed easier than others.
Anyone who is nice and friendly to group with, will be remembered fondly afterwords.
Those who play smartly and are friendly will be actively sought out to group with again sometime.

Those who are too uber and stuck up, and don't make others feel welcome...........well.....doesn't matter how easily your guy could solo the quest......I'd rather you go solo it and leave the rest of us to just try to have fun.

Zerg if you want.....zerging is fun.
Don't blame others if you die. I won't blame you for dying. And I'll help you in anyway I can afford to.

Sometimes a group gets in over their heads.
Sometimes a quest is very hard if you do not have a very powerful char or group of chars.
I never blamed not having the right class for the quest.....although, I admit sometimes having a rogue or lots of firewalls for a specific quest can make a huge difference.

But on average, a group of experianced players can make it through somehow.

[branmakmuffin]

That's false, at higher level, there are simply quests that can't be done with certain party make-ups.

But before you get there, ya, you're an idiot if you check off a class from your LFMs.
You're just a big, fuzzy bundle of friendliness aren't you?

[Talon_Moonshadow]

That's false, at higher level, there are simply quests that can't be done with certain party make-ups.

But before you get there, ya, you're an idiot if you check off a class from your LFMs.

Name one.

Edit: unless you mean like VON 5. But even then, you might be able to get a 20 Wiz on another class.....just rare, and prob need a +6 Wiz item.

I'll admit certain classes make things easier.

In some elite quests it is almost impossible to do without a rogue.
And then you have those insanely high runes. (although, I think the devs lowered a few of them in mod 7)

Also some raids are purposely designed to give all classes a role.
But even then.

I still challenge you or anyone to tell me what dungeon they think cannot be done without a certain class makeup.

[Kalari]

Talon I think you hit the nail on the head perfectly for me. My point was that even a supposed "gimped" class make up can be affective if a player who knows what they are doing is behind it. I have several weapons on my main that I use when it gets tough an needed, banisher, paralyser, disruptor etc, but if I didnt know when to use them that would be a problem. I have friends who have vorpals and weapons that can get the job done that still couldnt hit the broadside of a red barn. Do I shun them? No specially since some of them are older folks who just get on to have fun they arent in it for end game or big named loot. But if others grouped with them they wouldnt have the same patience believe me. I just dont like seeing that a new class that really hasnt had a chance to establish itself right off the bat shot down and excluded from stuff. And im sorry I dont agree that it takes a direct party make up to get higher level stuff done anymore. Not saying that it doesnt make the quest run smoother and there are plenty of players who prefer not to wipe a dozen times before getting a quest accomplished. But ive run short manned on raids, prereqs and gone clericless (till I made one that is hehe) on plenty of tougher quests with people who played with builds others wouldnt touch. And I was suprized how well those runs did compared to runs where we had the "Perfect make up."

I think the problem with the whole all food groups or effectiveness arguements is it boxes classes into roles and doesnt allow for people to be creative and have fun while playing. Sure there are times where competitiveness and completion isnt a bad mindset, but when it gets to the point where you wont even try to think out of the box cause you dont want to wipe or have a bad run at all it becomes work, then you get burned out. And to me those who exclude because of class or build are the same ones you see who get tired with the game real quick, cause once youve beaten everything down with the perfect make up and leave no room for noobs and wont even try whats the point to keep on playing? Its really the players who make a character and I think monks if given half the chance can be good in the higher level quest, they just need more time to figure out how to be effective and I hope that more people will have patience. Were all learning and were all on to have fun, its no fun being shunned in real life or in game and I just felt it needed to be addressed. I guess I tend to take it personal when I see people excluded without being given a real chance.

[Borror0]

Name one.
Shroud Elite

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Talon I think you hit the nail on the head perfectly for me. My point was that even a supposed "gimped" class make up can be affective if a player who knows what they are doing is behind it. I have several weapons on my main that I use when it gets tough an needed, banisher, paralyser, disruptor etc, but if I didnt know when to use them that would be a problem. I have friends who have vorpals and weapons that can get the job done that still couldnt hit the broadside of a red barn. Do I shun them? No specially since some of them are older folks who just get on to have fun they arent in it for end game or big named loot. But if others grouped with them they wouldnt have the same patience believe me. I just dont like seeing that a new class that really hasnt had a chance to establish itself right off the bat shot down and excluded from stuff. And im sorry I dont agree that it takes a direct party make up to get higher level stuff done anymore. Not saying that it doesnt make the quest run smoother and there are plenty of players who prefer not to wipe a dozen times before getting a quest accomplished. But ive run short manned on raids, prereqs and gone clericless (till I made one that is hehe) on plenty of tougher quests with people who played with builds others wouldnt touch. And I was suprized how well those runs did compared to runs where we had the "Perfect make up."

I think the problem with the whole all food groups or effectiveness arguements is it boxes classes into roles and doesnt allow for people to be creative and have fun while playing. Sure there are times where competitiveness and completion isnt a bad mindset, but when it gets to the point where you wont even try to think out of the box cause you dont want to wipe or have a bad run at all it becomes work, then you get burned out. And to me those who exclude because of class or build are the same ones you see who get tired with the game real quick, cause once youve beaten everything down with the perfect make up and leave no room for noobs and wont even try whats the point to keep on playing? Its really the players who make a character and I think monks if given half the chance can be good in the higher level quest, they just need more time to figure out how to be effective and I hope that more people will have patience. Were all learning and were all on to have fun, its no fun being shunned in real life or in game and I just felt it needed to be addressed. I guess I tend to take it personal when I see people excluded without being given a real chance.

I've had the most fun in groups that were very odd-ball mixed. And even in some groups that were under-powered for the quest.
The good players pulled together and found creative ways to overcome things.

I've used Clerics and Rogues with wands to take down the STK guardian. I've heard of people doing it with Rangers.
Clerics stepping up for a CC role does wonders in you have no arcane.

I've seen pallies (and been one) play cleric to very needy groups and handle it just fine.

Groups of mostly rangers might not even count......people really understimate rangers.
I would argue that any quest is easier the more rangers you have in the group.

But Actually, I've found that in most groups I've been in that had about 3 of any one class, things went extremely well. Maybe it's because they use the same tactics and get some kind of synergy from it......but it almost always seems the case to me.

Yeah.....seen a few monks go splat in the Harbor.......but it didn't bother me any, and I didn't see it cause the more careful members of the group any real troubles.

People just need to try to have fun and not worry about how uber their companions are.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Shroud Elite

Ok.
But what combo do you think is needed?

I've done hard.
The group was relitively balanced and made it look easy. (no pets)

IMO, the more rangers the better for the Shroud. But I think you could do it with any class combo.
Can't say for sure since I haven't done it enough to see how an imbalanced party does there.

But I'd be willing to try it with just about any group of "capped" players.

[MissErres]

That's false, at higher level, there are simply quests that can't be done with certain party make-ups.

But before you get there, ya, you're an idiot if you check off a class from your LFMs.

I think what BorrorO is saying is that there are certain quests that require a certain class make-up. Until it gets down to the wire of only # spots left and we need # of specific people to fill those spots, then no one is excluded from the LFM. I mean, if you have 9 or 10 ppl in a Shroud group and no clerics, you're gonna fill those last 2 or 3 spots with clerics, right? Until then you take what you can get, as long as you have what you need. Is that about right Borror0?

[Borror0]

But I'd be willing to try it with just about any group of "capped" players.

Ok, get me a group of 12 capped S&B fighters/paladins and monks. Screenshot it for me. I bet you can't complete part 2.

[Borror0]

Is that about right Borror0?

Yes, mostly.

But it's also very stupid to only have fighters, paladins and monks spec'd for AC as melees, in a quest like the Shroud Elite, if their AC isn't worth a **** in there.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Ok, get me a group of 12 capped S&B fighters/paladins and monks. Screenshot it for me. I bet you can't complete part 2.

Elite is a lvl 19 quest.
And very few groups have done it on elite to date.

But 12 rogues got past prt 2 on normal.
As did 12 clerics I think.

Also, I'm not convinced they couldn't do it. But you're limiting it to S&B only.....that's something you wouldn't know when they joined an LFM. But even then, they can still swing a bunch of vorpals on the trash mobs....and I think they can put out enough DPS for the named ones too.
The question is can they take the damage that is being dished out without the help of CC and fast healing....

Personally, I don't think 12 barbarians could do it either.......

Well, I didn't intend to get into a real arguement about it.
I'll admit certain groups make things easier.
But I think with the right equipment and good tactics you can overcome a lot.

I'd be willing to try the shroud with the group you mentioned. But I think they lack the survivability to pull it off.

I also think people think S&B is more gimped than it is.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Something else...
I've two manned most of the Vale quests on normal with either my Wiz or my Rgr7/Rog4/Wiz5 and my friends Ranger.
Now....he was the real uber one....he's soloed those same quests.

But my point is, there was no cleric healing us. There was no perfect party anything with us.
But we did it.....
it wasn't easy, but we did it.
And it was fun.

Even though I don't think my chars could have soloed them, and my friends could have.....it was still a lot easier for him to have me with him.

Sometimes my friend says "the rest of the party just gets in the way" but I think if the rest of the party cooperates like we did, than the same quests would be even easier with a full group.........but it wouldn't matter what their class was. Just that they worked together well.

To me, it's all about the player.
How well they work together.
Yes....they need to be prepared. And not all classes do well at all things.
But most of the capped chars I've seen are very capable and self-sufficient.

The best players do, do quests without a perfect group.
Most quests anyway, and it won't be long before they are doing the rest of them too.

[Borror0]

And very few groups have done it on elite to date.

Right, because it takes skills and the right party make up.


Also, I'm not convinced they couldn't do it. But you're limiting it to S&B only.....that's something you wouldn't know when they joined an LFM.

When posting an LFM, you always reduce it to what you see most from that class.

If you see an LFM for a barbarian for the Shroud, and you're a fighter with a +2 Holy Silver Greataxe of Greater Evil Outsider Bane, then maybe you could /tell the leader explaining your case and he'll probably take you in (if he's got a brain). Brain can cover for your class, but when posting an LFM you assume alright gear and most commonly seen builds.


The question is can they take the damage that is being dished out without the help of CC and fast healing....

See, you're recognising the existance of "bases" that need to be covered.


Well, I didn't intend to get into a real arguement about it.
I'll admit certain groups make things easier.
But I think with the right equipment and good tactics you can overcome a lot.

You're talking to a guy who puts "Bring your own healing - In progress" on his LFMs at low levels. I know that.

The problem is that at higher level, it falls appart. A group of twelve rogues can accomplish a lot. They got Evasion and most, if not all, of the group can self-heal with Heal scrolls. Their DPS out-put is insane. With twelve competent players, they will be lacking of nothing. They got DPS and healing covered. Heck, if some are too squishy I'm sure a few can back off and rage very effectively since they are Dex-based.

Same for a group of twelve cleric. I think we can assume they got Healing covered. Then, if they have a bunch of Battle Clerics, they got DPS covered.

You see, for some quests, you got to have enough DPS to complete the quest. Even ran Running with the Devils on Elite? Sorry but you got to have enough DPS for the read named Ghaele. It heals so fast it's not even funny. I remember throwing a badass firewall on her and it wasn't enough. (Max critical, Maximized, Empower, Superior Potency, Max enhancement line.)

The same is going to apply for A Vision of Destruction.

You need crowd-control in there, or you'll die.
You need healing in there, or you'll die.
You'll need serious melee DPS in there, or your clerics will use 3874875 SP potions.

While there is no need to get a perfect party make up, you're going to have to cover the bases.


I think they lack the survivability to pull it off.

They do. Funny to say that from a group with high AC, huh? Proves my point.


I also think people think S&B is more gimped than it is.

Got a S&B character? What is his AC?
Got an high DPS character? Class, race, fighting style?

[Borror0]

To me, it's all about the player.
How well they work together.
Yes....they need to be prepared. And not all classes do well at all things.

I won't disagree with this, or at least not in totallity.

In raids like Vision of Destruction, knowing each other's build really well helps a lot. You can adapt tactics to take advantage of the group's strengths. Same with many quests, if you know the sorcs' spells you can plan a tactic around it. Heck, we did Tor with a group of underleveled guildies. I knew the barbarian had intimidate so we worked with it for the Dragons.

It went ten times easier.

However, the group must have the survability. A group must have also the DPS. Sometimes, you look at what you have... and you look at what you need. amd, you ask for what you need.

It may be DPS, crowd-control, or healing. But I might need something. Raids are different from 6-man quests.

[Dark_Helmet]

I think it is a good discussion point to ask "What a Monk's Strengths and weakenesses are" as well as how they can contribute.

I hate to see it digress into the same old thread talking about other classes and the bias against them.

Hopefully, people will provide the information about how monks contribute to groups so more people can learn how they fit in.

[Slapphappy]

Good thread with good discussion. I think one thing that we all forget sometimes is that the point of the game is to have fun. This game can be incredibly frustrating sometimes (Aleckz, one day I will figure out how to jump on that dragon's tail in GH.) But it can also be a fun diversion from the hassle of the real world. What makes it fun is the people we group with. If they are laid back and laugh at mistakes and roll with what happens - it is a good time. If people are critical and arrogant and grumpy, it is not much fun. This is why it is the player, not the character that matters.

My two inputs on the thread...

Borror, I think of you as the expert on intimitanks and was thinking of building an offensive lineman. Do you still play your Borror? You see to be recomending against this now. Should I scrap the idea in favor of a barbarian 2hand raging monster?

On the monk hate... I don't hate monks. I am still just really, really grumpy that they haven't given us more character slots yet. Monks remind me of this sore spot.

Cheers!

[Borror0]

Borror, I think of you as the expert on intimitanks and was thinking of building an offensive lineman. Do you still play your Borror? You see to be recomending against this now. Should I scrap the idea in favor of a barbarian 2hand raging monster?

They are fun and still effective, but be ready find some part of the end game frustrating.

I love my intimitank, but the DPS out-put of S&B is beyond annoying. Heck, I'm sure mobs are annoyed and they wants to stop tickling them. The build performs much better versus large amount of mobs, like we see in A Vision of Destruction, or in most 6 man quests. But when it comes to tanking a raid boss with crazy to-hit... for normal, the build performs not as effectively.

It's sad to see the end game geared so much towards DPS, and values defense so little.

If you're about to build one, get ready to farm Titan and Shroud, because you're going to need the ring and the weapon. Otherwise, you,re going to get plenty in end game content. I'm scared of the future of defensive tanks. At least Eladrin acknowledged the issue, so now all w got to do is hope. A Vision of Destruction was a step forward to that.

... the Shroud was like 10 backward.

EDIT:

If you're looking to make the most effective builds for the end game right now, the Str-based dwarven ranger and the two-weapon fighting barbarians are the two best. Really, if you build anything for DPS right now, I would advocate TWF because of proc weapon like Vorpal, Wounding, Banishing, etc. These are often the "DPS" used versus trash mobs, so attacking twice often means twice the "DPS". As for raid boss, well TWF does more damage to them too.

Oh, and range is key in raid boss fights. Ever ran the Shroud Elite? Rangers are key in there.

But anyway, I love my intimitank. :)