Monks in PUGs... what are they?

[NXPlasmid]

This is sort of a continuation of a post by Teapotdome that he put up before mod7. Last night I was running a STK PUG with my Lvl5 ranger and was picking up members and had a rogue, cleric, sorc, and a bard. finally I had 2 join requests left, one Barb, one Monk. I thought about it and realized I have no idea how to think about monks, I ended up taking the Barbarian just because in general I have some idea what the basic role a barbarian plays. I needed some beef with smackdown capabilities if I take a fighter or barbarian the chances are good they will be able to do that to some level. I am not suggesting that the Monk class is wimpy at all, I just haven't played with monks enough to really understand overall variability of the class for the purpose of filling a specific need in a PUG. They don't wear armor so if they get hit they can potentially take a lot of damage. On the other hand, they are evasive and can punch a lot.... I totally understand that the most important aspect is really the player's ability and not the class, but that's impossible to tell simply from a response to an LFM.
So, should I think of the Monk as a versatile fighter type? Not unlike a TWF ranger who might not be able to withstand taking all the agro from big mobs but together with another tank/fighter type can take those mobs down? Or can they fill other roles in a group? I played with at least one monk that was a great mob beater and did some group healing to boot. Any thoughts about how other people strategize when forming a PUG incorporating a monk would be great, or observations of how monks have performed and what roles they have down well would be greatly appreciated.

[MageLL]

Monks really serve no roll.

They can be built for mostly DPS, Saves, or AC. My monk at lvl 12 unbuffed has 40 ac, 281 hps, and 20+ saves. That said his DPS is lackluster. They are kinda like a squishier version of a paladin. Monks can get a Rez enhancment, but it cost a lot of skill points, with all the other availablity of rezing its not really the best option.

I have seen alot of people going multiclass with the monk. It don't make much sense to me, but they probably realized that the monk class itself don't have much to add to a party.

That said monks are fun classes for solo play. The devs did a good job at version 1, they just need to tweek some stuff to make monks a desired class for parties.

[moorewr]

This makes me want to form parties that only have bards, rangers and monks. And pure Paladins. :)

[TommyBoy]

I agree with MageLL for the most part. Monk and Pally are about the same. Monks do alittle more dmg (imo though they did do something with pallies that i haven't tried yet) and can have a higher ac and hit point, but lack the wand wiping abilty and the auras.

At that lvl range I'de have just taken first in line as long as you had a rouge and maybe a caster its all gravy from there.

[Rameses]

Monks of who are disciplines of the Elegant Crane and flow like the Eternal Ocean serve as a DPS/AC role.
These Monks flow around their opponents crushing them like a wave crashing on the shore.
These Monks strike earingly like a Crane... fishing from the river.

I am, Rameses!

[Dimicron]

Monks are probably one of the harder classes to build in DDO, there's so much they can do, but you have to specialize him for 1 or two purposes. Their DPS definately goes up as they level as their fists can do more or if you go TWF they will get more attacks. Monks are very survivable characters with decent innate AC(getting it at every 5th level and +DEX +WIS), later they get innate immunity to disease, poison, and even innate SR. They get a few bonus feats, but they are very stat dependent. They need High DEX, WIS, CON, and decent STR. They can also use a bit of INT if you are going for max AC and want to take Combat Expertise. CHA if you want them to have UMD.

I can self buff my monks AC to 51 at level 10 with a pot of haste, barkskin +3, and a shield clicky. Unbuffed he sits at 43. I have a TWF Air/Water monk with way of the clever monkey, currently at level 10.

[moorewr]

Who are the rogues who can't disable traps?
Who are the barbarians who cannot rage?
Who are the tanks wearing only cloth?

[bandyman1]

I agree with MageLL for the most part. Monk and Pally are about the same. Monks do alittle more dmg (imo though they did do something with pallies that i haven't tried yet) and can have a higher ac and hit point, but lack the wand wiping abilty and the auras.

At that lvl range I'de have just taken first in line as long as you had a rouge and maybe a caster its all gravy from there.

Sorry Tommy, but I'm gonna have to disagree with ya here.

I haven't seen any monks, other than the TWFing kama variety, that can match a S&B Paladin DPS-wise. And DS and ES are awesome burst damage.
As for HPs; Monks gain 8 hp a level. Pallys gain 10. Sure monks have the tortise enhancements, but they also don't have a paladins toughness enhancements.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

This makes me want to form parties that only have bards, rangers and monks. And pure Paladins. :)

I'll bet they will do just fine on any quest.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Who are the rogues who can't disable traps?
Who are the barbarians who cannot rage?
Who are the tanks wearing only cloth?

lol.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Who are the rogues who can't disable traps?
Who are the barbarians who cannot rage?
Who are the tanks wearing only cloth?

Actually, I liked how the OP chose a Brb over a Monk because Monks don't wear armor and take a lot of damage. :rolleyes:

[NXPlasmid]

Monks are probably one of the harder classes to build in DDO,

that really sums up a lot. I consider builds for any class to be challenging and a big part of the fun of this game. It's a long road of learning how to play and make builds for a particular goal or playing style. Seems like secondary DPS with possible extras is a good general starting point for thinking about monk PUGing.

[Rameses]

Sorry Tommy, but I'm gonna have to disagree with ya here.

I haven't seen any monks, other than the TWFing kama variety, that can match a S&B Paladin DPS-wise. And DS and ES are awesome burst damage.
As for HPs; Monks gain 8 hp a level. Pallys gain 10. Sure monks have the tortise enhancements, but they also don't have a paladins toughness enhancements.

lol get your paladin and lets run ritual elite together. no vorpals, these are not dps weapons.

-Rameses!

[NXPlasmid]

Actually, I liked how the OP chose a Brb over a Monk because Monks don't wear armor and take a lot of damage. :rolleyes:

OK fair enough, I am not all that knowledgable about Barbarains either and forget that they don't have great AC as a given, however (gets foot ready for mouth) they also typically have hitpoint enhancements and are, at least as far as I understand, good at running into mobs and swinging an axe till everything is dead. Your observations is *exactly* why I posted this thread. And in that STK party, the pure rogue (lvl3) couldn't find the trapboxes for the poison or firetraps at the end... so there you have it.

In PUGs no one can hear you scream (if you make sure to turn off hands free voice chat just beforehand)... ok ok, just stay there I come get your stone...again. ;) )

[moorewr]

Actually, I liked how the OP chose a Brb over a Monk because Monks don't wear armor and take a lot of damage. :rolleyes:

Yes, I laughed, too.

To be serious for a moment.. they are a lot like evasion fighters (albeit with less HP and potentially better AC) or evasion barbarians (much less HP, much better saves, better AC at level).

(For example.. if I was building a non-monk version of my Spring Attack/Cleave/Whirlwind build, it would probably be a rogue/fighter or Batman build...)

Depending on the build they may serve just fine as tank or off-tank, and there are more feats available for tactics builds than any non-fighter build... People crunching numbers to show that a barbarian is DPS king (check) ignore the DPS from ki strikes, which make the monk look less capable than it is.

A bad build will be very bad, but a good build will be very cool to watch.

[bandyman1]

lol get your paladin and lets run ritual elite together. no vorpals, these are not dps weapons.

-Rameses!

Will do bro.

I agree, vorpal is NOT DPS.

Edit: I works 2nd, so work in about 30. Wanna set it up for this weekend?

[Beherit_Baphomar]

Monks of who are disciplines of the Elegant Crane and flow like the Eternal Ocean serve as a DPS/AC role.
These Monks flow around their opponents crushing them like a wave crashing on the shore.
These Monks strike earingly like a Crane... fishing from the river.

I am, Rameses!

Thats deep man, deep.

*toke*

[ShadowFox1978]

OK fair enough, I am not all that knowledgable about Barbarains either and forget that they don't have great AC as a given, however (gets foot ready for mouth) they also typically have hitpoint enhancements and are, at least as far as I understand, good at running into mobs and swinging an axe till everything is dead. Your observations is *exactly* why I posted this thread. And in that STK party, the pure rogue (lvl3) couldn't find the trapboxes for the poison or firetraps at the end... so there you have it.

In PUGs no one can hear you scream (if you make sure to turn off hands free voice chat just beforehand)... ok ok, just stay there I come get your stone...again. ;) )

You will almost never run into a barb with HP enhancements, they don't need them. Just wish a dev would explain how a monk can take toughness as a class bonus feat, but not have enhancements. No other class has it as a bonus feat, it just seems odd to me.

[Zaodon]

Sorry Tommy, but I'm gonna have to disagree with ya here.

I haven't seen any monks, other than the TWFing kama variety, that can match a S&B Paladin DPS-wise. And DS and ES are awesome burst damage.
As for HPs; Monks gain 8 hp a level. Pallys gain 10. Sure monks have the tortise enhancements, but they also don't have a paladins toughness enhancements.

My Dwarven 32-pt Str-based Staff Monk easily out DPS's a 1h-+shield paladin.
I also have more hitpoints due to high Con + Dwarven Con And Toughness enhancements.
I also have a higher AC.

[Rameses]

Will do bro.

I agree, vorpal is NOT DPS.

Edit: I works 2nd, so work in about 30. Wanna set it up for this weekend?

You're on.

[moorewr]

You will almost never run into a barb with HP enhancements, they don't need them. Just wish a dev would explain how a monk can take toughness as a class bonus feat, but not have enhancements. No other class has it as a bonus feat, it just seems odd to me.

Patient Turtle doesn't have Toughness as a pre-req, but it scales like toughness enhancements.

[bandyman1]

My Dwarven 32-pt Str-based Staff Monk easily out DPS's a 1h-+shield paladin. Not sure about that. You don't get Str enhancements as a monk, other than the way of fire line . A pally can get his Str just as high, considering DF. And a khopesh outdamages a staff. Plain and simple.
I also have more hitpoints due to high Con + Dwarven Con And Toughness enhancements. And a dwarven pally doesn't have 10-sided die to your 8, high Con + Dwarven Con, and two full toughness enhancement lines to fill to your one?
I also have a higher AC. Depends on the pally

Comments in red.

[ShadowFox1978]

Patient Turtle doesn't have Toughness as a pre-req, but it scales like toughness enhancements.

From what I understand(Haven't tested it yet only level 3 on my first mink), it is non-stacking. First is 5, second adds+5 and so on.

[moorewr]

From what I understand(Haven't tested it yet only level 3 on my first mink), it is non-stacking. First is 5, second adds+5 and so on.

Only to level 4 on my mink, as well. :)

[Zaodon]

My Dwarven 32-pt Str-based Staff Monk easily out DPS's a 1h-+shield paladin. Not sure about that. You don't get Str enhancements as a monk, other than the way of fire line . A pally can get his Str just as high, considering DF. And a khopesh outdamages a staff. Plain and simple.
I also have more hitpoints due to high Con + Dwarven Con And Toughness enhancements. And a dwarven pally doesn't have 10-sided die to your 8, high Con + Dwarven Con, and two full toughness enhancement lines to fill to your one?
I also have a higher AC. Depends on the pally.

DPS:
2h weapons get 1.5 Str added to damage, Khopeshes get 1.
2h weapons deal splash damage.
Monks get cheap add-on damage every few swings (5 ki=3 swings in fire stance)
Bosses that really require good DPS have Fortification.
Edit: Monks that go TWF/Kamas easily out DPS any 1hander.

Hitpoints:
Pallies cannot max Con like a Monk can, because they need Cha

AC:
A pallies theoretical AC max is lower than a Monks, assuming uber gear.

[GlassCannon]

I have been able to get groups no prob with: Tempest Ranger, Barbarian, Bard, Cleric, Sorc, Deepwood Sniper Repeater build...

I have been ostracised for being: Monk


Simply put: Ignorant people are concerned that a Monk, since it is new to the game, is less effective in a party than a level 1 Wizard with 8 INT. This is also the general consensus on how we Monks are treated... as less than a Wizard 1 with 8 INT.

I'm tired of the class I want to play being shunned by ignorant PuGers. I can and do keep up just fine. In fact, during a partywipe, I am the last one to fall. I'll be making some Pos/Pos clickies for True Res later.

Consider my monk a Tank. That's right, AC/DPS balance that is virtually immune to most spells.




Edit: I primarily use Handwraps. The other tanks still have a hard time keeping up.

[llevenbaxx]

Who are typically the least fun people to game(or do just about anything) with?:)


Ignorant people .


These people have been giving my characters a little trouble grouping in pugs since the day this game went live. A rog1/wizx was not always a happily accepted member of pugs like today, was the first character I made on day 1, I know. These people are the exception in my experience though, not the rule.

[TommyBoy]

Sorry Tommy, but I'm gonna have to disagree with ya here.

I haven't seen any monks, other than the TWFing kama variety, that can match a S&B Paladin DPS-wise. And DS and ES are awesome burst damage.
As for HPs; Monks gain 8 hp a level. Pallys gain 10. Sure monks have the tortise enhancements, but they also don't have a paladins toughness enhancements.

lvl5 drf monk all feats toughness 138 with stance 133 w/o
lvl5 drf pally all feats toughness 116

sorry no your wrong

[Aspenor]

lvl5 drf monk all feats toughness 138 with stance 133 w/o
lvl5 drf pally all feats toughness 116

sorry no your wrong

With what assumptions?

[Hendrik]

From what I understand(Haven't tested it yet only level 3 on my first mink), it is non-stacking. First is 5, second adds+5 and so on.

This is how it works.

[Xaymaca]

They don't wear armor so if they get hit they can potentially take a lot of damage.

If I remember correctly, the level of armor worn does not determine how much damage one takes. If a barbarian and a monk have the same armor class, if they get hit, they would take the same amount of damage. High AC doesn't mean you get hit for less, it means you get hit less.

[bandyman1]

DPS:
2h weapons get 1.5 Str added to damage, Khopeshes get 1. Agreed. 32 Str is giving you an extra 5 over the pally. But the extra damage of the khopesh combined with the higher crit range means you're going to need a lot more than that. With DF up, the pally has the equivilant of a 36 Str.
2h weapons deal splash damage. Agreed. At 32 Str, prob 15-20 on two swings in a 5 swing sequence. Again, you're going to need it when the pally is using cleave and greatckleave for splash damage.
Monks get cheap add-on damage every few swings (5 ki=3 swings in fire stance) An extra D6. So average of 3.
Bosses that really require good DPS have Fortification. Pit-Fiend=25%. Big Deal. BTW, ever heard of DS and ES?

Hitpoints:
Pallies cannot max Con like a Monk can, because they need Cha Monks need Str, Con, Dex, Wis. Pally's need Str, Con, Cha. No one is gonna argue that a monk needs to spread his points every bit as thin as a pally bro.

AC:
A pallies theoretical AC max is lower than a Monks, assuming uber gear. Theorectical? Absolutely. Viable? Not so much.

Comments in red.

[bandyman1]

lvl5 drf monk all feats toughness 138 with stance 133 w/o
lvl5 drf pally all feats toughness 116

sorry no your wrong

Show us your numbers Tommy.

And I'll point out where you're wrong :P

[moorewr]

This is how it works.

Good to know, thanks.

(Either way the Patient Tortoise line is analogous to a toughness enhancement line.)

Holy ****, 133 HP at level 5? My little halfling has 61 at level 4.

[TommyBoy]

With what assumptions?

opps forgot to click up to lvl 5 on the pally
pally 134

assuption both are drf, max out con, every feat is toughness, all enhancements that boost hp/ con/ toughness are taken

[Aspenor]

Just cranked the numbers....

Dwarf paladin, MAX con, all feats toughness, all enhancements (never would happen) - 129 hit points
Dwarf Monk, MAX con, all feats toughness, all enhancements + earth stance - 126 hit points

ahh...well i didnt bother with the dorf con enhancements, either way, the paladin comes out with more hit points. End game, it will be drastically more due to enhancements and the fact that every level the pally comes out ahead 2 hit points.

[Zaodon]

DPS:
2h weapons get 1.5 Str added to damage, Khopeshes get 1. Agreed. 32 Str is giving you an extra 5 over the pally. But the extra damage of the khopesh combined with the higher crit range means you're going to need a lot more than that. With DF up, the pally has the equivilant of a 36 Str.
2h weapons deal splash damage. Agreed. At 32 Str, prob 15-20 on two swings in a 5 swing sequence. Again, you're going to need it when the pally is using cleave and greatckleave for splash damage.
Monks get cheap add-on damage every few swings (5 ki=3 swings in fire stance) An extra D6. So average of 3.
Bosses that really require good DPS have Fortification. Pit-Fiend=25%. Big Deal. BTW, ever heard of DS and ES?

Hitpoints:
Pallies cannot max Con like a Monk can, because they need Cha Monks need Str, Con, Dex, Wis. Pally's need Str, Con, Cha. No one is gonna argue that a monk needs to spread his points every bit as thin as a pally bro.

AC:
A pallies theoretical AC max is lower than a Monks, assuming uber gear. Theorectical? Absolutely. Viable? Not so much.

1. Remember Greensteel tends to make the base damage difference more trivial.
2. Monks can take Cleave/Great Cleave also, so that's a wash, and in fact, advantage: Monk due to 1.5xStr damage.
3. Earth Punch is +4 untyped (rank 1) and +8 untyped (rank 2), so if you average them that's 6 untyped damage adding on.
4. Pit-Fiend is just the first, I'm sure.

5.
Dwarven Monk Starting Stats (32 point build)
Str 16
Dex 16
Con 12
Int 8
Wis 16
Cha 6

Dwarven Pally Starting Stats (32 point build)
Str 16
Dex 10
Con 10
Int 8
Wis 12
Cha 16

Sure, you could sacrifice CHA for CON, but your Lay on Hands and UMD would suck.

[TommyBoy]

Show us your numbers Tommy.



Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 2.96
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Level 5 Lawful Good Dwarf Male
(5 Paladin)
Hit Points: 134
Spell Points: 0
BAB: 5\5\10
Fortitude: 11
Reflex: 1
Will: 1

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Stats Modified Stats
Abilities (Level 1) (Level 5)
Strength 8 8
Dexterity 8 8
Constitution 20 22
Intelligence 8 8
Wisdom 8 8
Charisma 6 7

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 5)
Balance -1 3
Bluff -2 -2
Concentration 5 6
Diplomacy -2 -2
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle -2 -2
Heal -1 -1
Hide -1 -1
Intimidate -2 -2
Jump -1 -1
Listen -1 -1
Move Silently -1 -1
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a
Repair -1 -1
Search -1 1
Spot -1 -1
Swim -1 -1
Tumble n/a n/a
Use Magic Device n/a n/a

Level 1 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Paladin Armor Class Boost I
Enhancement: Paladin Attack Boost I
Enhancement: Paladin Saves Boost I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness I


Level 2 (Paladin)


Level 3 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Damage I
Enhancement: Dwarven Constitution I
Enhancement: Dwarven Toughness I


Level 4 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Devotion I
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness II


Level 5 (Paladin)




+2 tome used to represent +2 to con from pebble stance


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 2.96
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Level 5 Lawful Good Dwarf Male
(5 Monk)
Hit Points: 138
Spell Points: 0
BAB: 3\3
Fortitude: 11
Reflex: 3
Will: 3

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Stats Modified Stats
Abilities (Level 1) (Level 5)
Strength 8 8
Dexterity 8 8
Constitution 20 24
Intelligence 8 8
Wisdom 8 8
Charisma 6 6

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 5

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 5)
Balance -1 5
Bluff -2 -2
Concentration 5 11
Diplomacy -2 -2
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle -2 -2
Heal -1 -1
Hide -1 -1
Intimidate -2 -2
Jump -1 0
Listen -1 -1
Move Silently -1 -1
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a
Repair -1 -1
Search -1 1
Spot -1 0
Swim -1 -1
Tumble n/a n/a
Use Magic Device n/a n/a

Level 1 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Disciple of Pebbles
Enhancement: Monk Concentration I
Enhancement: Monk Jump I
Enhancement: Monk Spot I


Level 2 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Toughness
Enhancement: Way of the Patient Tortiose I


Level 3 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Damage I
Enhancement: Dwarven Constitution I
Enhancement: Dwarven Toughness I


Level 4 (Monk)


Level 5 (Monk)
Enhancement: Way of the Patient Tortiose II
Enhancement: Monk Balance I
Enhancement: Monk Balance II
Enhancement: Monk Concentration II

[bandyman1]

Are you sure you're adding the tortise enhancements right Tommy?

I'm coming up with the same numbers as Asp.

[Aspenor]

i dont get those numbers....working....

[NXPlasmid]

If I remember correctly, the level of armor worn does not determine how much damage one takes. If a barbarian and a monk have the same armor class, if they get hit, they would take the same amount of damage. High AC doesn't mean you get hit for less, it means you get hit less.

Yes that is my understanding as well, AC determines if you get hit, armor helps AC but regardless of your AC if the hit connects then you take the damage (DR not considered). I was thinking that Monks don't have a lot of hitpoints so they can take less hits than a more hitpoint intensive build such as a barbarian. Of course, this thread is dispelling some of my misconceptions and providing me a little more monkey insight.

The whole To-hit/AC/armor/damage melee combat system is rather confusing, but an interesting way to reconcile the effect of both armor and agility as they would affect the total damage once might suffer in a round of hand to hand combat.

[Aspenor]

Even with dwarf con enhancements and the +2 tome into con to compensate for the earth stance I come up paladin 134 and monk 131.

[bandyman1]

1. Remember Greensteel tends to make the base damage difference more trivial. True, but it's still higher. And there is still the difference in crit range which only becomes higher once you consider the potency of the greensteel on-crit effects.
2. Monks can take Cleave/Great Cleave also, so that's a wash, and in fact, advantage: Monk due to 1.5xStr damage. True.
3. Earth Punch is +4 untyped (rank 1) and +8 untyped (rank 2), so if you average them that's 6 untyped damage adding on. Again true, but like I said you're going to need it.
4. Pit-Fiend is just the first, I'm sure. But we're talking about the state of the game right now.

5.
Dwarven Monk Starting Stats (32 point build)
Str 16
Dex 16
Con 12
Int 8
Wis 16
Cha 6

Dwarven Pally Starting Stats (32 point build)
Str 16
Dex 10
Con 10
Int 8
Wis 12
Cha 16

Sure, you could sacrifice CHA for CON, but your Lay on Hands and UMD would suck. Naw. I'd get the extra points from Wis. Pally doesn't need over a starting 8 Wis. Items and tomes cover spell casting easily.

My rejoinder :)

[bandyman1]

Even with dwarf con enhancements and the +2 tome into con to compensate for the earth stance I come up paladin 134 and monk 131.


Yeah. I'm thinking the planner isn't adding the tortise enhancements right. They don't stack like toughness enhancements.

[Aspenor]

Yeah. I'm thinking the planner isn't adding the tortise enhancements right. They don't stack like toughness enhancements.

Oh yeah? Well I think Tommy doctored his results :p Cuz I'm using Ron's Planner, v.2.96. Either that or Ron updated it and didn't change the version number.

[Avelin]

I ran with a high level monk for the first time on Ghallanda the other night and was quite impressed (I think he was level 16 but may have been 15). We were about to do Coal. Chamber and he ran out and started clearing the Vale so I decided to join in with my 16 ranger. He was killing most mobs before I could get 3 hits in and his hps rarely went down past 50%. He must have been using handwraps because I never saw him holding a weapon. Once we all got inside the quest, he pretty much owned the dungeon while the rest of us felt like noobs trying to keep up. lol. It seems like a very versitile class and very powerful if played correctly. :p

[Zaodon]

5.
Dwarven Monk Starting Stats (32 point build)
Str 16
Dex 16
Con 12
Int 8
Wis 16
Cha 6

Dwarven Pally Starting Stats (32 point build)
Str 16
Dex 10
Con 10
Int 8
Wis 12
Cha 16

Sure, you could sacrifice CHA for CON, but your Lay on Hands and UMD would suck. Naw. I'd get the extra points from Wis. Pally doesn't need over a starting 8 Wis. Items and tomes cover spell casting easily.

Remember, an item cannot grant you spellcasting abilities. You have to have an innate Stat that meets the requirements to cast the appropriate level of spells. So, 8+2 Tome=10 which means no spells. You need 12+2 Tome or 11+3 Tome to get to level 4 spells.

Oh, one more thing.. Monks get more Feats than Paladins, so can take more Toughnesses.

[Aspenor]

Remember, an item cannot grant you spellcasting abilities. You have to have an innate Stat that meets the requirements to cast the appropriate level of spells. So, 8+2 Tome=10 which means no spells. You need 12+2 Tome or 11+3 Tome to get to level 4 spells.Completely false. In DDO tomes, enhancements, and items all count for spellcasting purposes.

Oh, one more thing.. Monks get more Feats than Paladins, so can take more Toughnesses.And gimp themselves royally....

:)

[Twerpp]

What is a Rogue...squishy trapmonkey, or combat melee capable of going toe-to-toe with raid bosses?
What is a Paladin...main tank or ineffective vorpaler with 3rd rate healing?
What is a Ranger? plink from a safe distance or melee and be nearly as much of a manasponge as barb?
Bard? 2nd rate DPS'er or master enchanter/crowd controller?

You get the idea, its all about the build and player. Guess you just have to meet some of them.

[Chelsa]

:)Oh, one more thing.. Monks get more Feats than Paladins, so can take more Toughnesses. And gimp themselves royally....

huh. How are they gimped?

[Aspenor]

huh. How are they gimped?

ANy character that takes nothing but toughness feats = mana sponge

[Razvan]

ANy character that takes nothing but toughness feats = mana sponge


Even the ones with very high AC?

[Chelsa]

ANy character that takes nothing but toughness feats = mana sponge

Really?

So, would you pug with Monks?

[Aspenor]

Really?

So, would you pug with Monks?

Do all monks have nothing but toughness? I sure hope not. If so, then no, I wouldn't PUG with one. However, I know that's not the case.

Having multiple toughness? Fine. Having no improved critical and power attack feat because you took all toughness? Noobsauce.

[Chelsa]

Do all monks have nothing but toughness? I sure hope not. If so, then no, I wouldn't PUG with one. However, I know that's not the case.

Having multiple toughness? Fine. Having no improved critical and power attack feat because you took all toughness? Noobsauce.

I wouldn't tell anybody how to build their monk, but a balanced build is what I prefer.

[Zaodon]

Remember, an item cannot grant you spellcasting abilities. You have to have an innate Stat that meets the requirements to cast the appropriate level of spells. So, 8+2 Tome=10 which means no spells. You need 12+2 Tome or 11+3 Tome to get to level 4 spells. Completely false. In DDO tomes, enhancements, and items all count for spellcasting purposes.

Seriously? I wasn't entirely sure about Enhancements, but a +6 Item which you can take on and off ?! I'll have to test that out, I seriously don't think that can be true. What would happen to prepared spells if they unequipped their item and then failed to meet the casting requirements?


one more thing.. Monks get more Feats than Paladins, so can take more Toughnesses.And gimp themselves royally....

I said "more toughnesses" not "all toughnesses".

[Turial]

Seriously? I wasn't entirely sure about Enhancements, but a +6 Item which you can take on and off ?! I'll have to test that out, I seriously don't think that can be true. What would happen to prepared spells if they unequipped their item and then failed to meet the casting requirements?

[/color]

I said "more toughnesses" not "all toughnesses".

You get an error message. Some rangers run into it alot.

[Rameses]

Do all monks have nothing but toughness? I sure hope not. If so, then no, I wouldn't PUG with one. However, I know that's not the case.

Having multiple toughness? Fine. Having no improved critical and power attack feat because you took all toughness? Noobsauce.

lol
I took 3 on Chakra. I have Improved Critical, Stunning Fist, Toughness X3, Die Hard, Dodge, Combat Expertise and Weapon Finesse.
Are you suggesting my Monk is lacking because I didn't take Power Attack?
eheh maybe we need to run some more together.

-Rameses!

[DoctorWhofan]

For LFM purposes, Monks are tanks, so are rangers and pallys. fyi.

[wolfy42]

Paladins have more hp then monks even if the monk uses all 3 bonus feats for toughness.

Why?

Paladin gets 2 extra hp per lvl = 2 toughness feats.

Paladin gets toughness enhancement worth 50 hp vs turtle enhancement worth 20 hp = 30 more hp...or almost 2 more toughness feats.

So Con being equal the paladin ands up with higher max hp then the monk end game even if the monk uses all bonus feats as toughness.

Also the paladin is actually more likely to have a 14 con then a monk. Why?

Paladins don't need high dex or wisdom, and a medium cha is enough.

Monks need high dex and wisdom both and a medium strength is enough. Due to AC issues quite often monks need to go extreme on their Dex/Wisdom.

Now it's true a monk is better off as a dwarf then a paladin (the cha penalty hurts)...and the toughness bonus from the dwarf can compensate for the paladin toughness bonus. So a dwarven monk vs any other race paladin will have more hp if they use all 3 feats as toughness.

In any other scenerio the paladin will have more hp.


As far as damage...the paladin has enough feats to take Khopesh,TWF/ITWF/GTWF and even to do it at fairly low lvls due to fighter BAB progression. A paladin can get all of those feats AND improved crit slashing by lvl 12 (means no toughness till later unless human though).

Dual Khopesh are far superior to monks H2H dmg or even TWF kamas.....and thats not even factoring Paladins burst DPS which is significant (and works on red names).

A human paladin with the following stats:

Str 16 (10)
dex 15 (08)
Con 14 (06)
Int 08 (00)
wis 10 (02)
cha 14 (06)

Can get GTWF easily with a +2 dex tome.

Strength ends up 16 base + 4 lvl + 3 tome + 1 human + 6 item= 30 (decent before rage/madstone etc)
Con ends up 14 base + 6 item + 3 tome + 1 litany = 24 (2 tome and no litany is more likely for 22)
Wisdom just needs a +2 tome for lvl 2 spells (lvl 3 is fine by wands)
Cha ends up 14 base + 3 enhancement + 3 tome + 6 item = 26

So ending stats are:

Str 30
dex 17
con 22 (realistically)
int 10 (I'd drop a +1 int tome at lvl 1)
Wis 12
Cha 26

Even with only 22 con + 1 toughness feat + paladin toughness enhancement your max hp will be fine.

Dex of 17 allows you to max out AC with mithril full plate without a dex item

Dual Khopesh + paladin exalted smites and Divine sacrifice = fairly decent DPS...and far better then monk DPS.

And yes...you can still switch to Khopesh/shield when you really need the AC...so you have more versatility.

I'm not going to break down the AC between the two...but the monk has to go finess in order to compare to the Paladins AC....if the monk goes finess based his dmg is even lower compared to the paladin.

Monks naturally have evasion and even improved evasion. Paladins do get decent saves end game due to cha bonus across the board.....and in fact a dwarven paladin can still reach a 24 Cha end game get 66 more max hp...and higher saves across the board vs spells (+5 to saves vs spells from dwarven race + enhancements...which is 4 more net then the human).

The human paladin though gets +1 more strength (net bonus of +1 to hit and +2 to dmg per attack (With 2 weapons) end game.

Anyway all of that does not matter what does matter is a paladin can still be very defensive when he needs to be, but can also whip out dual khopesh for some very nice DPS.

The monk does not have the high DPS option...but can still be useful in a party. The monk can target wizards, survive spells as well or better then a paladin ( Paladin has to multiclass to survive as well basically), can move around faster and get places the pally can't reach (abundant step) and can have stunning fist which is comparable to stunning blow...without a high strength.

The dwarven paladin can take stunning blow but has to sacrifice Improved crit to get it (unless the paladin multiclasses for 2 fighter lvls). If the dwarven paladin takes 2 fighter lvls he can get toughness and stunning blow along with power attack. He gets +1 more strength (so same strength as the human version) and both paladin and dwarven toughness enhancements for max hp.

He also grabs fighter haste boost:)

A pure paladin is > a pure monk for DPS and max hp.

But paladins currently are generally better off multiclassing for at least 2 lvls (possibly 4-5)...in which case they end up way better over all in both categories.

[wolfy42]

Oh yes.....

Also Drow make much better paladins then Monks.

So for new characters who have just unlocked drow and not 32 point builds yet....the paladin may be a better choice.


You lose some hp over the dwarven build but you can start with stats like this:

Str 16 (10)
Dex 16 (06)
Con 12 (06)
Wis 10 (02)
Int 10 (00)
Cha 14 (04)

Ending stats are of course lower then the 32 point build human/dwarf but still decent:

Str 16 base + 4 lvl + 3 tome + 1 fighter + 6 item = 30
Dex 16 base + 2 tome = 18 (only really need a +1 since 3 is max AC in mithril full plate)
Con 12 base + 2 tome + 6 item = 20 (22 with litanty and +3)
Wis 12 (+2 tome for spells....+1 though early on gets you divine favor)
Int 10 (new character doesn't have +2 int tomes to use)
Cha 14 base + 3 pally + 3 tome + 6 item = 26

End stats:

Str 30
dex 18
con 20 (22)
wis 12
int 10
Cha 26

Comparable to the 32 point human build..although you lose the bonus feat (hurts..but 2 fighter lvls still allow for the important feats).

That is another advantage of the paladin. In this case you still reach over 400 max hp, still have quite decent saves and very decent DPS.

[CSFurious]

why do you need multiple toughness when no one can hit you?


Even the ones with very high AC?

[petegunn]

Heres my view of things , you know what a monk in a pug is to me , now bear in mind people i'm probably going to be on one of my clerics . A monk in a pug group i'm in is just another person to share the fun thats all .

[wolfy42]

Recently my take on DPS classes has changed drastically.

I now see them like this:

Highest still is a TWF Barbarian = Winner

Second highest tied between TWF paladin and Ranger (no I'm not explaining why....I like people complaining about Paladins).

Rogues situationally are also up there with the others (must not have agrro, creature must be vulnerable to crits, knocked down etc)

Fighters pure are around third...but are best multiclassed with others to pump them up a bit more.

Then Bards

Clerics

Wizards/Sorcs (for melee DPS)

Finally Monks are the lowest DPS in game while retaining any decent defensive abilities.

Sadly a strength based WF sorc with defensive and offensive melee boosting spells going can out damage a pure monk. The WF sorc can self heal like crazy and still has high non-save spells like MM and Firewall to use (not to mention melee dmg boosting spells like fire shield and defensive spells like stoneskin/resist energy etc).

The monk does compete better in many other fields such as max hp and AB etc.....but for DPS it is the lowest man on the totem pole......lower even then melee spellcasters.

[QuantumFX]

OK fair enough, I am not all that knowledgable about Barbarains either and forget that they don't have great AC as a given, however (gets foot ready for mouth) they also typically have hitpoint enhancements and are, at least as far as I understand, good at running into mobs and swinging an axe till everything is dead. Your observations is *exactly* why I posted this thread. And in that STK party, the pure rogue (lvl3) couldn't find the trapboxes for the poison or firetraps at the end... so there you have it.

In PUGs no one can hear you scream (if you make sure to turn off hands free voice chat just beforehand)... ok ok, just stay there I come get your stone...again. ;) )

NX, I think the best general analogy for a monk is that of a tactics fighter with better spell defenses. I've drawn this conclusion as I had a drow tactics guy at mod 2 and my human monk just plays so much like him. Basically, if you're like me and think that Spring attack was useful before the tempest enhancement came along you'll like the class a lot. If you're someone incapable of making spring attack work for you then you're going to hate the class a lot. It's a very twitch play oriented class.

All the gimped monks that I've seen are the ones made by players who think monks should be just like barbarians. They don't pay attention to their AC, they try to use DEX and WIS as dumpstats and then think the class is horrible since they were too stupid to play up to it's strengths.

My major complaint about the class is that the game engine isn't robust enough to support TWF properly. In P&P I don't think there's a single monk melee weapon that TWF doesn't support but here in DDO land you get to make a 3 feat investment for kamas and... kamas.


why do you need multiple toughness when no one can hit you?

Because ray spells are borked beyond belief in DDO.

[moorewr]

I don't get this. How can a TWF monk with an aggressive stance, ki strikes, and flurry of blows a lower DPS character than a fighter, let alone the caster classes? How does a monk with TWF and improved crit end up so far away from a fighter with TWF and improved crit? What are you basing that on?


Recently my take on DPS classes has changed drastically.

I now see them like this:

Highest still is a TWF Barbarian = Winner

Second highest tied between TWF paladin and Ranger (no I'm not explaining why....I like people complaining about Paladins).

Rogues situationally are also up there with the others (must not have agrro, creature must be vulnerable to crits, knocked down etc)

Fighters pure are around third...but are best multiclassed with others to pump them up a bit more.

Then Bards

Clerics

Wizards/Sorcs (for melee DPS)

Finally Monks are the lowest DPS in game while retaining any decent defensive abilities.

Sadly a strength based WF sorc with defensive and offensive melee boosting spells going can out damage a pure monk. The WF sorc can self heal like crazy and still has high non-save spells like MM and Firewall to use (not to mention melee dmg boosting spells like fire shield and defensive spells like stoneskin/resist energy etc).

The monk does compete better in many other fields such as max hp and AB etc.....but for DPS it is the lowest man on the totem pole......lower even then melee spellcasters.

[Aspenor]

lol
I took 3 on Chakra. I have Improved Critical, Stunning Fist, Toughness X3, Die Hard, Dodge, Combat Expertise and Weapon Finesse.
Are you suggesting my Monk is lacking because I didn't take Power Attack?
eheh maybe we need to run some more together.

-Rameses!

Yes that's what I'm saying Rams, you pint sized noob!!! :p

I think you knew what I was saying, I'm not saying PA is required, I was using it as an example.

[moonprophet]

..is that a monk takes a little skill, creativity and imagniation to build. You cant just drop as many points as possible into one or two stats and call it a build. For those with the afformentioned skill, creativity and imagination, the monk is EXTREMELY effective. I have run several quests with all-monk or nearly all monk groups and had things go extremely smoothly. Did Greymoon and CO6 with 3 monks and a dexed based halfling throwing fighter. Average level 5. No clerics. No sorcs. Did not have any issues until Co6 part 6. We had to have someone hold the instance while folks recalled once.
I also would like to add, that I play a monk/rogue. This is an EXTREMELY difficult build in my opinion and underwent 3 re-rolls to get it right. I enjoy character creation and design however. I am a chronic re-roller and have tried a number of combinations that people have considered insane.
To answer the OP, monks, if played and created properly, can easily replace a tank. The only difficulty is, that you cannot play a monk the same way you play a tank. Mashing the attack button (or now day just holding it down) and pointing yourselves at the next mob is just going to get you killed. The monk requires a more active combat style. The best monks I have played with employ a close quarters hit and run strategy that makes you think you are watching a jackie chan movie.

[winsom]

My experience with seeing how people play monks is that most people do not know how to play them very well. They only play them as a low-medium-damage melee-strikers. At least they have higher-than-average AC, saves, and evasion. They are dealing a lot less damage than other classes and they are not contributing anything else besides high survivability. Not bad, but not as good as I think they should be.

It has taken me a lot of practice with my monk's special attacks, stuns, and finishing moves to learn how to make them useful to the team. These specials are not always very useful, but if I never used them at all then they would Never be useful !


Monks really serve no roll.

They can be built for mostly DPS, Saves, or AC. My monk at lvl 12 unbuffed has 40 ac, 281 hps, and 20+ saves. That said his DPS is lackluster. They are kinda like a squishier version of a paladin. Monks can get a Rez enhancement, but it cost a lot of skill points, with all the other availability of rezing its not really the best option. .

That above shows my point. He probably hasn't learned how to play a monk very well. He is only thinking of them in terms of AC, saves and DPS, with a rez enhancement. He also says "no roll". Does he expect monks to serve food as well? :)
Monk is something of an advanced class to learn to play well. I am still learning it, and I've already had a fair amount of experience leveling characters in this game.

If you add a barbarian to a PUG he might play that role better than a random monk you might add. Barbarians are easier to play well.

My monk took Discipline and Skill Focus Concentration at level 1 & 2. Those have been very useful up to level 8. More so than toughness or two weapon fighting would have been for me, given my play style of unarmed fighting and using monk special attack & buffs.

I can respec those feats to Toughness or something else later on. Maybe Dodge, Mobility & Spring Attack, but I think Id rather have Toughness x2 or x3 for the high level game.

[wolfy42]

I don't get this. How can a TWF monk with an aggressive stance, ki strikes, and flurry of blows a lower DPS character than a fighter, let alone the caster classes? How does a monk with TWF and improved crit end up so far away from a fighter with TWF and improved crit? What are you basing that on?

The primary difference (although not the only one) is the weapon choice.

Monks are forced to use H2H (one handed weapon), Quarterstaff (the weakest 2 handed weapon) or Kama (one or two handed...but the weakest one handed weapon for crit range and multiplier).


All other melee characters can use Khopesh for instance for a much higher dmg base.

Then you have the fact that other classes get better bonuses per hit then a monk.

Monks "ki strikes" do not equal even a paladins bonus from Divine Favor....let alone things like Rams Might/favored enemy/weapon specialization etc.

There are other factors as well.....strength factors in along with weapon selection (ie you can use way more weapons as other classes...not just kamas.....you can for instance use a wieghted weapon in your off hand for a high double stunning blow bonus for classes other then a monk).

Monks offense blows. It's the lowest on the totem pole because every other class has better weapon choices then a monk. Every other class has better abilities or spells that boost their damage then a monk.

In fact the monks "best" choice for additional damage is earth attacks which requires spending AP for a currently broken stance that is worthless for anything other then the attack itself. IF your willing to spend the AP for you it you can 2 8 damage ki attacks you can alternate between fairly consistantly (although even in fire stance with GTWF this still isn't possible to keep up constantly...and it slows down your attack chain etc).

The end result is simple....every other class in the game....can use TWF better then the monk.

Every one.

Every other class can ALSO use THF better then a monk.

So in both cases the monk does not compare to DPS of any other class melee or otherwise when equiped with a good weapon and built around melee offense.

The monk has other advantages.......nobody is denying that.

But for pure offense a monk does not compare to any other class currently....it's lowest on the totem pole for DPS, Crit range using TWF and a few other offensive abilities.

[TommyBoy]

Are you sure you're adding the tortise enhancements right Tommy?

I'm coming up with the same numbers as Asp.



i dont get those numbers....working....

um... i didnt do the adding... you guys do realize that i used the character creator right? it does the adding its self. so I'm fairly sure my numbers are correct and you guys missed something. anyways the point is that at that lvl chances are the monk will most likely have a higher hp, ac and possibly dmg. dont forget that con is a key stat for monks were its forth (possibly third) down for a pally. As a pally your going to want a high cha, and str and a decent wis before you worry about con to much. but its pretty important to monks, more so then for pallies.

at lvl5 theres not a huge differents between the two.

[bandyman1]

um... i didnt do the adding... you guys do realize that i used the character creator right? it does the adding its self. so I'm fairly sure my numbers are correct and you guys missed something. anyways the point is that at that lvl chances are the monk will most likely have a higher hp, ac and possibly dmg. dont forget that con is a key stat for monks were its forth (possibly third) down for a pally. As a pally your going to want a high cha, and str and a decent wis before you worry about con to much. but its pretty important to monks, more so then for pallies.

at lvl5 theres not a huge differents between the two.

We know you used the creator, I think you're missing the point that I'm pretty sure that it's adding the tortise enhancements wrong. They don't stack like a toughness enhancement.

As for Con being more important to a monk; No bro, it's not.

Con affects the concentration skill, which is important to monks.

But monks also need Str, Dex, and Wis.

Their stat points are spread just as thin as a pallys.

The reason you have higher HPs at level 5, is because you took every bonus feat as toughness, and most of monks bonus feats are gained in the first few levels. Try it with a level 16 monk, and a level 16 paladin.

The extra 2 HPs a paladin gets a level + the extra 30 he gains from toughness enhancements throws him higher than the monk.

Damage has already been explained too. Better weapon selection. That's the long and the short of it.

As for AC; Yep. A monk can get the highest AC in the game. But he can also totally gimp himself in every other area trying to get it so high.


To anwser Zaodon; Items, tomes, and enhancements absolutely DO count for the min ability score requirements for spellcasting. If you take the item off, or drop the enhancement after you've prepared spells, you'll lose the extra SPs you gained, and you'll get an " ability score too low " message when you try to cast the spell. But as level 4 is as high as pally spells go, you can easily get a 14 Wis from tome and items, and more spell points from wizardry items. Not to mention a pally's will saves being good because of his arua and divine grace. So there's really no need to start with a good Wis.

[wolfy42]

Paladins only really need to be able to cast lvl 1 spells in most cases. Lvl 2 spells are nice for resist energy, but you can usually get that from another source.

All other paladin spells other then holy sword (if you need/use it..and you can just cast that with a +wisdom item equiped when you first enter the dungeon...it lasts till you leave anyway)....can be used from wands just fine.

So no....Wisdom is not needed for a paladin. A 10 wisdom is more then enough since a +2 tome will eventually allow you to cast resist energy without any wisdom item at all (A +4-6 item worn on entering the dungeon would give you extra sp to cast resist energy on everyone to start....holy sword if you want...and then remove the item once you no longer need the wisdom or extra SP it would give).

Paladins do not need high dex...needing only a 17 dex if they are going TWF route for high DPS late game.

A 17 dex requires a 15 base dex to reach with a +2 tome (anyone with 32 point builds can have it).

If you don't have a 32 point build you run with a Drow....which means you can start with a 16 dex easily...and need only a +1 tome (anyone at all can buy one by oh lvl 10 or so).

Paladins actually need decent strength (or dex if finess based)....decent cha (not astronamical you get plenty of bonuses to cha naturally) and a decent con.

Monks needs a decent dex, wisdom and some strength to help their already very low dmg. Con is actually not as important for monks as many other classes since they can get so many toughness feats if they need them. I would consider Con still as important for a monk as a paladin though.

That means monks need dex, wisdom, strength and con.

Pally's need Strength, Con, Charisma...and possibly dex if going TWF (But not as much as the monk.


The monk NEEDS high wisdom/dex to reach a decent AC...forget about huge top end ACs...without investing points into wis/dex your going to get POUNDED on as a monk.

32 point dwarven monks can reach quite high AC's while using the TWF build. Why?

Dwarven armor mastery + 18 base dex (15 +3 eventually) and just a cats grace (+4 dex) gives you a great base AC with mithril fullplate (13 base + 1 normal dex ac + 2 mithril bonus + 3 dwarven ac bonus + 1 alchemical bonus = 20 AC from your armor and dex)

With +5 from your aura, + 3 from natural + 4 from insight (two weapon combat..so it doesn't hurt as much having insight on one), +5 dodge (no dodge feat), +10 base, +4 shield bonus (UMD is always boosted on my pally's), +5 protection you have around a 60 AC while using TWF as a paladin.


Yes 60 AC is not huge....yes a monk can reach a higher AC.....but your 60 AC is while dual wielding Khopesh with Power attack going and the ability to self heal instantly a few times. Your Damage is FAR superior to a monk who can reach a similar AC. You can self heal and use wands without dropping out of any stance (including non-pally wands depending on your UMD). You can even raise dead with FAR less AP invested then a monk.

Dual Khopesh far outshine dual kama......or any other monk attack currently right now.

Paladins AB also is higher then the monks especially when DF is factored in (not factorning smite bonuses etc since those are situational...although less now then they were before).

Even vs enemies with high crit resistance or crit immunity the paladin is better DPS then the monk...but if the enemy can be crit? Forget about it...the paladin blows away the monk and with the right build.....can actually compete quite well with a barbarian at least for short bursts now.

The monk can not compete with a paladin in damage.

The monk can not compete with a paladin in group buffs.

The monk can not compete with a paladin at healing.

The monk can not compete with a paladin at weapon diversity, crit range, power item usage etc.

The monk CAN compete with a paladin at saves...and win in fact....and the monk naturally gets evasion and improved evasion which is a big advantage.

The monk can be just as good as the paladin at using vorpals.

The monk can compete with the paladin at max HP (both are fairly close depending on how feats are used).

The monk beats the paladin in most cases at trap avoidance.

Over all the paladin is much more useful in a party in my opinion though. The aura is nice for the whole party but especially for other melee characters. The ability to backup heal is very useful as is having someone else to cast the resists. The high DPS available by paladins now brings it in line with rangers and barbarians as top tier damage dealing class (surpassing pure fighters easily now).

I see barbarians as the highest DPS.

Rangers and Paladins are just under Barbarians now...with rangers having more versatility (ranged attacks), and Paladins having more defense.

If I could only choose 2 tanks for my party I would choose a paladin and a ranger at this point. The ranger can barkskin the paladin, and the paladins aura boosts the ranger. Both can reach very high DPS (I'd say within 10% of a barbarians) and both are hard to kill.

A monk? I will add monks to my party sure.....I play a monk as well, so I realize it's hard to get in parties (Although not as hard at higher lvls where there are less monks at this point). But honestly a monk does not have a special role right now except a few specific uses of abundant step. The paladin handles the defensive end of the monk quite well....yes the monk is slightly more defensive even then the paladin......but the cost for that defense is just to large, and the truth is there are to many ways around such defenses (Spells with no saves, bugged enemies, incorporeal enemies etc).

A good monk (I have one) can be a great bonus to a party. When I play my monk nobody has ever complained about him being worthless or not invited him into a party again in the future after playing with me.

But honestly....if I played my paladin instead....I would be more useful to the party. Same with a ranger. Even a barbarian is better just due to the very high DPS it can output.

Monks don't have a special something to bring to the table. Almost every other class does (fighters I guess are the "multiclass" specialists).

Spellcasters all have their specific spells we all know and love...no reason to go into them.
Bards have songs + those spells.
Clerics can heal, have greater command, holds, buffs and cures.
Barbarians have huge DPS and fast movement speed to use it (and great crit ranges).
Rangers have barkskin, high dps, heal with wands and decent defense (Along with evasion).
Paladins have Auras, High DPS, High defense, good saves and self healing in a pinch.
Rogues can handle traps, have sneak attack damage, have stat damage, usualy have good to great UMD (so they can use many different types of spells and wands).

Monks have high defense and saves....quick movement speed.....alternative stun attack (Stunning fist) and abundant step.

None of the monks abilities really help a party a ton. Nice when soloing....especially the self healing quite often.....but in a party?


It's hard to think of a time when a different melee class besides the monk would not be better.

[Aspenor]

um... i didnt do the adding... you guys do realize that i used the character creator right? it does the adding its self. so I'm fairly sure my numbers are correct and you guys missed something. anyways the point is that at that lvl chances are the monk will most likely have a higher hp, ac and possibly dmg. dont forget that con is a key stat for monks were its forth (possibly third) down for a pally. As a pally your going to want a high cha, and str and a decent wis before you worry about con to much. but its pretty important to monks, more so then for pallies.

at lvl5 theres not a huge differents between the two.

Yeah but you won't be at level 5 for more than 2 hours.

Also, I was using the character creator. It did not come up with your numbers. Figure that one out for me.

[Aspenor]

Seriously? I wasn't entirely sure about Enhancements, but a +6 Item which you can take on and off ?! I'll have to test that out, I seriously don't think that can be true. What would happen to prepared spells if they unequipped their item and then failed to meet the casting requirements?


Yes, it's true. Prepared spells are organized into spell points, not slots. You take off your +6 stat item, you may lose some SP. That's about all.

I cast level 1 pally spells with a 8 wisdom + 5 item on one of my characters.

[Zaodon]

Recently my take on DPS classes has changed drastically.

I now see them like this:

Highest still is a TWF Barbarian = Winner
Second highest tied between TWF paladin and Ranger (no I'm not explaining why....I like people complaining about Paladins).
Rogues situationally are also up there with the others (must not have agrro, creature must be vulnerable to crits, knocked down etc)
Fighters pure are around third...but are best multiclassed with others to pump them up a bit more.
Then Bards
Clerics
Wizards/Sorcs (for melee DPS)
Finally Monks are the lowest DPS in game while retaining any decent defensive abilities.


/ROTFLMAO

Hysterical! Pure comedy genius!

I'm guessing you don't own a lvl 16 properly built monk then, right?

Here is the order, my friend:
TWF Barbarian
TWF Monk
2H Barbarian
2H Monk
TWF Ranger
(the rest)

[moorewr]

I don't have a level 16 monk either - about to hit level 5 with my q-staff/cleave/fire stance dude.. (talk about generating a lot of ki)..

in your opinion, how much of your DPS comes from ki strikes at that level?

It does seem like comparing Paladin smites to ki strikes ignores how very fast you can lay on the ki strikes.. conversely I love how suddenly paladins are getting player love in comparison to monks. :p



/ROTFLMAO

Hysterical! Pure comedy genius!

I'm guessing you don't own a lvl 16 properly built monk then, right?

Here is the order, my friend:
TWF Barbarian
TWF Monk
2H Barbarian
2H Monk
TWF Ranger
(the rest)

[TommyBoy]

We know you used the creator, I think you're missing the point that I'm pretty sure that it's adding the tortise enhancements wrong. They don't stack like a toughness enhancement.
just checked the calcs it did. tortiose 1 adds 5pts tortiose 2 adds an additional 5. so if it was stacking like you imply it would be 5 more over the number I listed.


As for Con being more important to a monk; No bro, it's not.
in order to get rock stance need atleast a 13. what does it do for pallies besides hp (which all classes need)?

Con affects the concentration skill, which is important to monks.
yes this is true

But monks also need Str, Dex, and Wis.
this is some what true also but only a 13 if they want those stances. except wis which effects ac and dcs

Their stat points are spread just as thin as a pallys.
right supporting my arguement that at lvl 5 they're basicly even except for the stuff i've listed

The reason you have higher HPs at level 5, is because you took every bonus feat as toughness, and most of monks bonus feats are gained in the first few levels. Try it with a level 16 monk, and a level 16 paladin.
that was for the test to see which had higher hp. which I was correct in that a monk at lvl5 can have higher.

The extra 2 HPs a paladin gets a level + the extra 30 he gains from toughness enhancements throws him higher than the monk.
I'm not denighing that nor did I

Damage has already been explained too. Better weapon selection. That's the long and the short of it.
at higher lvls maybe but at lower lvls not really plus dont forget that monks get that extra attack and depending on stance extra str to add to there str. I will give you that at higher lvls yes you have access to many many more options.

As for AC; Yep. A monk can get the highest AC in the game. But he can also totally gimp himself in every other area trying to get it so high.
as can a pally or any class really


To anwser Zaodon; Items, tomes, and enhancements absolutely DO count for the min ability score requirements for spellcasting. If you take the item off, or drop the enhancement after you've prepared spells, you'll lose the extra SPs you gained, and you'll get an " ability score too low " message when you try to cast the spell. But as level 4 is as high as pally spells go, you can easily get a 14 Wis from tome and items, and more spell points from wizardry items. Not to mention a pally's will saves being good because of his arua and divine grace. So there's really no need to start with a good Wis.



see green

[TommyBoy]

Yeah but you won't be at level 5 for more than 2 hours.

Also, I was using the character creator. It did not come up with your numbers. Figure that one out for me.

are you using the latest ver? other then that I dont know. I posted what it spit out.

[Aspenor]

are you using the latest ver? other then that I dont know. I posted what it spit out.


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 2.96
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Level 5 Lawful Good Dwarf Male
(5 Monk)
Hit Points: 131
Spell Points: 0
BAB: 3\3
Fortitude: 11
Reflex: 4
Will: 3

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 5)
Strength 17 17
Dexterity 11 11
Constitution 20 24
Intelligence 8 8
Wisdom 8 9
Charisma 6 6

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 5

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 5)
Balance 0 6
Bluff -2 -2
Concentration 5 10
Diplomacy -2 -2
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle -2 -2
Heal -1 -1
Hide 0 0
Intimidate -2 -2
Jump 3 4
Listen -1 -1
Move Silently 0 0
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a
Repair -1 -1
Search -1 1
Spot -1 0
Swim 3 3
Tumble n/a n/a
Use Magic Device n/a n/a

Level 1 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 2 (Monk)


Level 3 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 4 (Monk)


Level 5 (Monk)
Enhancement: Dwarven Constitution I
Enhancement: Dwarven Shield Mastery I
Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense I
Enhancement: Dwarven Toughness I
Enhancement: Way of the Patient Tortiose I
Enhancement: Way of the Patient Tortiose II
Enhancement: Monk Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Disciple of Pebbles
Enhancement: Monk Balance I
Enhancement: Monk Balance II
Enhancement: Monk Concentration I
Enhancement: Monk Jump I
Enhancement: Monk Spot I
Enhancement: Monk Wisdom I





Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 2.96
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Level 5 Lawful Good Dwarf Male
(5 Paladin)
Hit Points: 134
Spell Points: 0
BAB: 5\5\10
Fortitude: 11
Reflex: 2
Will: 1

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 5)
Strength 17 17
Dexterity 11 11
Constitution 20 22
Intelligence 8 8
Wisdom 8 8
Charisma 6 7

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 5)
Balance 0 4
Bluff -2 -2
Concentration 5 6
Diplomacy -2 -2
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle -2 -2
Heal -1 -1
Hide 0 0
Intimidate -2 -2
Jump 3 3
Listen -1 -1
Move Silently 0 0
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a
Repair -1 -1
Search -1 1
Spot -1 -1
Swim 3 3
Tumble n/a n/a
Use Magic Device n/a n/a

Level 1 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 2 (Paladin)


Level 3 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 4 (Paladin)


Level 5 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Armor Class Boost I
Enhancement: Paladin Attack Boost I
Enhancement: Dwarven Armor Mastery I
Enhancement: Dwarven Armored Agility I
Enhancement: Dwarven Constitution I
Enhancement: Dwarven Toughness I
Enhancement: Paladin Devotion I
Enhancement: Paladin Devotion II
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness II




:confused:

[TommyBoy]

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 2.96
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Level 5 Lawful Good Dwarf Male
(5 Monk)
Hit Points: 131
Spell Points: 0
BAB: 3\3
Fortitude: 11
Reflex: 4
Will: 3

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 5)
Strength 17 17
Dexterity 11 11
Constitution 20 24
Intelligence 8 8
Wisdom 8 9
Charisma 6 6

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 5

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 5)
Balance 0 6
Bluff -2 -2
Concentration 5 10
Diplomacy -2 -2
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle -2 -2
Heal -1 -1
Hide 0 0
Intimidate -2 -2
Jump 3 4
Listen -1 -1
Move Silently 0 0
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a
Repair -1 -1
Search -1 1
Spot -1 0
Swim 3 3
Tumble n/a n/a
Use Magic Device n/a n/a

Level 1 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 2 (Monk)


Level 3 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 4 (Monk)


Level 5 (Monk)
Enhancement: Dwarven Constitution I
Enhancement: Dwarven Shield Mastery I
Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense I
Enhancement: Dwarven Toughness I
Enhancement: Way of the Patient Tortiose I
Enhancement: Way of the Patient Tortiose II
Enhancement: Monk Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Disciple of Pebbles
Enhancement: Monk Balance I
Enhancement: Monk Balance II
Enhancement: Monk Concentration I
Enhancement: Monk Jump I
Enhancement: Monk Spot I
Enhancement: Monk Wisdom I





Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 2.96
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Level 5 Lawful Good Dwarf Male
(5 Paladin)
Hit Points: 134
Spell Points: 0
BAB: 5\5\10
Fortitude: 11
Reflex: 2
Will: 1

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 5)
Strength 17 17
Dexterity 11 11
Constitution 20 22
Intelligence 8 8
Wisdom 8 8
Charisma 6 7

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 5)
Balance 0 4
Bluff -2 -2
Concentration 5 6
Diplomacy -2 -2
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle -2 -2
Heal -1 -1
Hide 0 0
Intimidate -2 -2
Jump 3 3
Listen -1 -1
Move Silently 0 0
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a
Repair -1 -1
Search -1 1
Spot -1 -1
Swim 3 3
Tumble n/a n/a
Use Magic Device n/a n/a

Level 1 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 2 (Paladin)


Level 3 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 4 (Paladin)


Level 5 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Armor Class Boost I
Enhancement: Paladin Attack Boost I
Enhancement: Dwarven Armor Mastery I
Enhancement: Dwarven Armored Agility I
Enhancement: Dwarven Constitution I
Enhancement: Dwarven Toughness I
Enhancement: Paladin Devotion I
Enhancement: Paladin Devotion II
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness II




:confused:

your missing the lvl 2 monk feat if you pick up toughness there your numbers will match.

[Aspenor]

your missing the lvl 2 monk feat if you pick up toughness there your numbers will match.

Good point.

The fact still stands that you will be level 5 for all of a few hours of game-time. Comparing classes at level 5 is well...completely pointless to begin with.

[TommyBoy]

Good point.

The fact still stands that you will be level 5 for all of a few hours of game-time. Comparing classes at level 5 is well...completely pointless to begin with.

the op was asking about monks at lvl 5 that was the point. brandy started the whole tangent. my comparison was because pallies and monks have about the same spread of attribute points. and at that lvl they were basicly even as to help the OP figure out how he should slot them in a party.

[bandyman1]

/ROTFLMAO

Hysterical! Pure comedy genius!

I'm guessing you don't own a lvl 16 properly built monk then, right?

Here is the order, my friend:
TWF Barbarian
TWF Monk
2H Barbarian
2H Monk
TWF Ranger
(the rest)

Dude....there's no way. You haven't shown that your Str-based THFing monk can out DPS a S&B paladin...but you think that they're out DPSing a TWFing ranger?

Maybe you should run some numbers on a TWFing Greensteel khopesh-using dwarven Str-based ranger. Or a DPS rogue for that matter. Then come back to this thread.

[Zaodon]

Dude....there's no way. You haven't shown that your Str-based THFing monk can out DPS a S&B paladin...but you think that they're out DPSing a TWFing ranger?

Maybe you should run some numbers on a TWFing Greensteel khopesh-using dwarven Str-based ranger. Or a DPS rogue for that matter. Then come back to this thread.

Why don't you? You also made a similar claim to mine.

[bandyman1]

the op was asking about monks at lvl 5 that was the point. brandy started the whole tangent. my comparison was because pallies and monks have about the same spread of attribute points. and at that lvl they were basicly even as to help the OP figure out how he should slot them in a party.

You're right Tommy in that I completely missed the part about level 5 on the OP. My apologies, and for the last time it's Bandy :P!

As for you green comments;

Actually they need stats higher than 13 in order to take the upper tiers of the lines.

I'm not sure what you mean by " that extra attack ". Monks don't get an extra attack from flurry in DDO. They get full BaB, which puts them dead even with a paladin on attack rate. Wind stance would give slightly faster, but it doesn't stack with haste which superseeds it, and is a staple level 5 buff. The Str. difference from Fire stance is negated by DF.

[bandyman1]

Why don't you? You also made a similar claim to mine.

I have. That's the point :)

[Zaodon]

I have. That's the point :)

Link?

I dont see the stats from the test, just a post on your opinion, which is clearly wrong (as you have Clerics Wizards and Sorcs with more melee DPS than a Monk, which is a total joke and questions your credibility)

[bandyman1]

Link?

I dont see the stats from the test, just a post on your opinion, which is clearly wrong (as you have Clerics Wizards and Sorcs with more melee DPS than a Monk, which is a total joke and questions your credibility)

Umm...wrong.

You've never seen a single post of mine that metions Clerics, Sorcs, and Wizards with more melee DPS than a monk.

Thanks for playing though.

[TommyBoy]

and for the last time it's Bandy

oh and here i was just thinking you liked to drink brandy. what the hell is a bandy? is that some sorta of drink too? or are you in to rubber bands?

[wolfy42]

Link?

I dont see the stats from the test, just a post on your opinion, which is clearly wrong (as you have Clerics Wizards and Sorcs with more melee DPS than a Monk, which is a total joke and questions your credibility)

I do indeed have a high lvl monk.

I also have one high level melee wizard left (had to delete the other).


Why does a melee wizard do more damage then a high lvl monk?


Simple.....the wizard has better spells that boost his defense allowing him to concentrate more equipment on offense, and a higher crit multiplier vs stunned/held enemies etc.

Take a low lvl monk vs a low lvl wizard....both with 18 base strength.....and compare them in DPS.

The wizard will out damage the monk at early levels due to using a great axe instead of a quarterstaff.

By lvl 5 the wizard has haste and heroism/displacement...allowing him to hit more often then the monk. The wizard also has the ability to boost his own stats by 4 constantly without the need of an item equiped.

By lvl 7 the wizard has wall of fire (all eneimes within melee range of the wizard take constant fire damage) and stoneskin (10/- DR).

Meanwhile the wizards base weapon DPS is STILL higher then the monks and his AB is just about the same with heroism going etc.

End game the wizard has non-save spells that occupy the enemy "otto's irresistable dance", a 50% chance for all enemies to miss him "displacement" 10/- DR, WoF + Fire Shield for additional melee dmg to enemies near them. Comparable AB to a strength based monk (with spells going) and better then a monk if you use DP clickies (or tensors..which is silly).

IF the wizard is a WF he can self reconstruct at will and boost his stunning blow with tactics (nice backup to hold spells).

The monk Has 3 basic choices in damage.

Hand 2 Hand which does not get 1.5x strength bonus or 2x power attack bonus....but allows the monk to use quivering palm and stunning fist. Very low DPS but the most fun to use in my opinion.

Quarterstaff which is not even worth snagging improved crit for...has minimal base dmg but does get 1.5x strength and power attack...making it useful if you have those feats.

Dual kamas which is the highest DPS a monk can reach. It still only has x2 crit and 20 base crit range though...which blows. The monks best bet here is to use vorpals on all enemeis that can be affected by it. You do get 1.5x strength and 2x power attack between the two weapons though....making 5 of your 9 feats used up already.

The only way a monk competes in the damage arena at all....is with dual kamas.

Dual kamas do 2d8+10 base damage (if both are greensteel). Both can get elemental dmg added to them like all other weapons and with GTWF you can get double ki bonuses as well....allowing you to average a ki bonus every attack (8 is the most from earth).

This is the highest DPS a monk can get.

Every other class can beat that using similar number of feats. Only wizards and Sorcs are not able to get GTWF with better weapons...and wizards and sorcs can add to their damage in other ways....so they STILL beat a monk at melee DPS (by using spells).

Monks gain nothing that brings them over a bard/cleric in damage using the same feats as the monk (going TWF basically). They do not come close to comparing in DPS to Paladins,Rangers or of course Barbarians. They do compare somewhat to a fighter.....but the fighter has more tacticle advantages and is usually multiclassed anyway.

2 Kama vs 2 Khopesh + 10 additional strength + 5 extra dmg per hit + 2 additional crit range = barbarian wins DPS easily.

2 kama vs 2 khopesh + rams might + favored enemies + tempest speed boost = ranger wins easily

2 kama vs 2khopesh + Divine favor + Exaulted strike + Divine sacrifice (not at the same time) = paladin wins easily.

2 kama vs 2 khopesh + greater weapon spec + very high Stunning blow/trip skills etc = fighter wins..though not by as much as the others.

Heck 2 kama vs 2 rapiers + sneak attack + w/p weapon + crippling strike = rogue wins easily in most cases.


Monks do not compare to any other class in the DPS field.

Melee wizards can still use non-DC based spells to improve melee dmg over the monk.

All other classes have better weapon selection and other means of boosting damage higher even with the same weapons then a monk.

Hope that breaks it down enough for you.......if you think otherwise....please post your theory on how a monk does more dmg, I'd love to hear it.

[bandyman1]

oh and here i was just thinking you liked to drink brandy. what the hell is a bandy? A fairly common last name. in is that some sorta of drink too? or are you in to rubber bands?

:)

[Aspenor]

:)

Maybe common if you're a redneck :D jk jk brother

[GlassCannon]

I do indeed have a high lvl monk(One of 5 versions of a Monk anyway).

I also have one high level melee wizard left (had to delete the other).


Why does a melee wizard do more damage then a high lvl monk?


Simple.....the wizard has better spells that boost his defense allowing him to concentrate more equipment on offense, and a higher crit multiplier vs stunned/held enemies etc.
Yada yada, numbercrunching, complete opposite of "Simple", etc.

Insert Greater Casual Player Bane Here.

Hope that breaks it down enough for you.......if you think otherwise....please post your theory(Work, not play) on how a monk does more dmg, I'd love to hear it.

Enough crunching numbers to make your build look ub3r hax0r.

People will build what they want and try to play it. Stop patronizing people for trying out a class, or for wanting to play a game on the internet.

Sure, they aren't min/maxing and don't have the 999999999's for every 3rd hit, but they get along just fine. Quit crunching and start playing.


Anything outdamages anything else that is new to the arena. Period.

[bandyman1]

Maybe common if you're a redneck :D jk jk brother

No need for the jk jk. I'm from TN. OF COURSE I'M A REDNECK!!!! :D

[wolfy42]

Enough crunching numbers to make your build look ub3r hax0r.

People will build what they want and try to play it. Stop patronizing people for trying out a class, or for wanting to play a game on the internet.

Sure, they aren't min/maxing and don't have the 999999999's for every 3rd hit, but they get along just fine. Quit crunching and start playing.


Anything outdamages anything else that is new to the arena. Period.

I was only number cruching in response to another post.

I do enjoy my monk....who btw is a finess based h2h high dex/wisdom character....so his damage is even lower.

I certainly never said....DON'T PLAY A MONK!!!

I did say that a monk in general adds less to a party then any other class (if you don't have one of that class yes in the party).

That does not mean you can't complete quests with monks in your party, or even an all monk party (i've been in many).

But other classes will add more to the party then a monk in most cases.

Also all other classes can do more DPS then the monk.

The number crunching came at the request of another player........and even THEN I refrained from breaking it down to the specific numbers because the truth is obvious....you don't need me to show the numbers between Kama's and Khopesh to figure out which build does more damage.

I made it as simple as humanly possible and cut out a ton of the advantages the other classes have. Mostly broke it down to simple weapon selection over everything else.

Some people are going around stating that monks are Da Uber DPS class and can do more then any other character.

I just want them to show some evidence that supports their claim as I consider it outrageous.

[Osharan_Tregarth]

Seriously? I wasn't entirely sure about Enhancements, but a +6 Item which you can take on and off ?! I'll have to test that out, I seriously don't think that can be true. What would happen to prepared spells if they unequipped their item and then failed to meet the casting requirements?Spells stay prepared, but you'll get an error message saying you don't meet the minimum stat requirement for that spell when you try and cast it. I cast spells on one character while leveling up by eating an owl's wisdom pot for a couple of levels, until I could fit in a stat item.



Absolutely, 100% true and tested here in DDO land.

Take a gander at the ranger forums sometimes, to see how many str based rangers leave their starting wisdom at 8, so they can pump more points into something else. My dwarf ranger(15/1) started with a 10 wisdom, and can cast all available ranger spell levels with a +4 item on.

My dwarfen intimitank (currently 6 fighter/4 paladin/1 rogue) started with an 8 wisdom, and can now cast divine favor whenever he needs to with a +3 wisdom item.