Strategy Discussion for VoD Pugging.

[Venar]

Hi.
I would like to figure the best strategy to run VoD with a pick-up-group.
I wanna insist here on the Pug aspect of it.
I think at this point, most of us have done succefull guild runs with very little ressources. But pugs are a beast in themselves.
For exemple, saying: we use 3 Warfoged Ranger/Paladin Hybrids with AC 75+ and saves 30+ with 2 reconstruct spec Sorcs doesn't do much. I am sure that this is a great set-up. But pugging that? Good luck.

I'll go first with my usual set-up. Nothing ubber or game breaking, but this strat usually gets things done in 30 minutes with about 10 to 15 Mnemonic pots usage.

Group Roles:
One Sulo-Tank
One Paladin Sidekick
One Crippler (can be the sidekick)
One Stand-out Targetter (can also be the crippler)
One Savior Aggrotank (can also be crippler)
One caster debuffer+buffer
One Monkey
3 clerics (unless the Sulo-Tank is warforged, then a wizard can replace 1 cleric)


Role definitions:

Sulo-Tank We are looking here at a character that can get his AC above 70 for the entire quest, and keep aggro. This accounts for Paladin Aura, recitation, Barkskin, and Bard songs. A good choice here is a ranger that is specced with favored defense against outsiders. The purpose of this person is to tank Sulo the entire time once he's down from his pedestal. 70+ ac is the treshold where AC really matters. You will get hit a lot less, and cursed a lot less too. Evasion a big plus, for all the fireballs and chainlighting thrown (one again, rangers are good choices). Keeping aggro is important. I tried this job on my rogue, and even if i had teh AC, without sneak attacks, i kept loosing aggro. So, damage or Intimidation a must.

The Paladin Sidekick This is a Paladin that will stay close to the Sulo-Tank, providing him with +AC and +saves. As a paladin, he also has access to emergency LoHs, and can use Curse Removal wands as needed. Cuse Serious wands can also be used. Basically, you watch out for the Sulo-Tank, greatly allivieting the cleric job. Unyieding Sovereignty a big plus since it removes death penalty.

The crippler The crippler is a guy with some debuffing weapon that will keep Sulo as weak as possible: Crippling, Tendon Slice, Destruction, Shattermantle. You go in from time to time, do your crippling. Rogues are good here, they get nice side attack to-hit bonus, and stay out of aggro with the subtle enhancement.

Stand-out Targetter This is any melee character that stands out. Just look at the party and pick teh person who really stands-out. Maybe the only warforged. Maybe that female dwarf with a huge Pink Axe. Maybe that Human paladin with the huge conehead hat. Whatever. This person's role is to pick up an Orthon to fight. We want everyone taking down 1 Orthon, so having this stand-out person pick em up really help focusing on 1 target.

The savior Aggrotank This guy will intimidate or cleave or aggro in whichever maner the other orthons, and keep em away from the party. He will also jump to the rescue of the clerics if they have aggro. This guy will need some healing, but better have 1 guy get cleave by 3 orthons, then 8 guys getting cleave by 4 orthons.

Caster buffer +debuffer This guy uses scrolls to fatigue and exhaust Sulo, and to debuff the Orthons. He also keeps the entire party hasted the entire quest. Wands of stone skins and remove curse to assist.

The Monkey Anyone who can do traps.


The strategy

Go in. Buff GH, Lighting, Fire, Death ward.
Clerics hit the little cuby-hole. 1 cleric is assigned to Sulo-Tank. 1 cleric assigned to savior. 1 cleric Mass heals party.
Monkey heads off to do all 8 traps.
Party moves up out of cleric cleave range.
Orthon comes in.
Savior tank gets aggro (intimidate, cleave, damage) and moves aside to the east.
Stand-Out Targetter picks one, attack hit, brings it back to group, everyone attacks the same target.
Caster lays a non-aggro fog (solid fog or non-maximized acid fog) and can use enfeeblement and exhaustion on the orthon.
Kill all 4 orthons.
Sulo comes down.
Sulo-tank gets aggro and takes him west.
Everyone chucks lighting and Fire resist pots, and keep em up all the time.
Sidekick stand by the Sulo-tank and assist.
Caster lands waves of Fatigue and Exhaustion (scroll works)
Crippler Cripples.
At this point, Sulo slowly goes down, with people doing damage here and there slowly. Only the Sulo-tank should require heals, and anyone else getting damaged a lot is a piker.
Devil waves starts: here, everyone take em down fast. Savior tanks keeps em out of the cleric. Vorpal or Wounders work well. Make sure the party is hasted.
Keep this start up, with people killing devils as they pop. Change Sulo-tank assigned cleric if his SPs gets low.
First baby-bats wave. No danger there.
Sulo hides up on his Pillar.
Devils wave comes.
The person with aggro stays north, taking teh lightning/fire spells.
rest of party kills devils.
Sulo comes down.
Re-set-up: Sulo-tank and sidekick west with Sulo, rest kill devils.
Second Orthon Waves.
Savior tank gets em all to east.
Targetter picks em one by one for the kill.
Another low-aggro fog helps here.
Back to Sulo killing.
All able characters cast an efreeti from a scrolls (casters, bard, clerics) or, for lack high UMD, a fire hound. Should give a total of 5 to 8 Fire immune new targets for bats. Give em a quick electric resist if able.
Put a Maxed-Emp acid fog in fromt of the cleric hole.
Bats come in, half suicide on fire immune pets, other half gets aggro in the acid fog and then run to the Caster, who is away to the north, and hopefully fire-shielded himself.
Finish Sulo ASAP.


Alright, comments, suggestions?

[MrCow]

The crippler The crippler is a guy with some debuffing weapon that will keep Sulo as weak as possible: Crippling, Tendon Slice

I thought Purple Named monsters, while hit with these effects, did not change their movement speed?

[Aspenor]

I seriously recommend a sorcerer with reconstruct and not a wizard. The SP pool WILL become an issue, as will the cooldown timer.

[Venar]

Since this is for pugs, i's rather look for characters that exist more then 2 per servers.

[Averroes]

Caster lands waves of Fatigue and Exhaustion (scroll works)


Looks good to me -- and you just saved me a bunch of typing. Now I can have people alt-tab out and read it before raids. Uber. :)

I've had no luck w/ scrolling these spells, by the way -- I know I failed the SR check on exhaustion with a roll of 17. Don't think I ever rolled higher with the 30 scrolls of it I had. He probably wasn't hit with shattermantle though at the time -- that might do the trick. Does anyone know his precise SR check? I'll try to work it out next time I bring my caster...

In fact, that's what to add to this: his attack bonus, AC, and SR as we figure them out. My working estimate of attack bonus is +55 right now, but limited data -- hard to read combat spam while fighting in there.

Might want to mention weaps too -- I had a pug last week I think with at least a couple of fighters who claimed they had no way to bypass dr. Gotta bring transmuters or silver+good weapons or it'll be ugly.


Beyond that, you could probably also use an arcane to hold some orthon agro and just run 'em around during the second wave.

Anyway, great post. Thanks!

[Aspenor]

Since this is for pugs, i's rather look for characters that exist more then 2 per servers.

This may sound snide, but if a sorcerer is so stuck on his spells that he refuses to swap one spell for the good of the group, I'd be questioning whether I want this person playing in my PUG for this quest.

Also, 70 AC is unnecessary. I was at 59 and could barely be touched, granted this was on normal.

[Vorn]

Great post!!

For the AC, my fighter was in the low 60's and was hardly touched--unless he got chained. What does one do about the chains? Just grit your teeth and get healed through it?

[Borror0]

I thought Purple Named monsters, while hit with these effects, did not change their movement speed?

That is not my only concern, quite honestly.

[Borror0]

Also, 70 AC is unnecessary. I was at 59 and could barely be touched, granted this was on normal.

Agreed.

[Averroes]

This may sound snide, but if a sorcerer is so stuck on his spells that he refuses to swap one spell for the good of the group, I'd be questioning whether I want this person playing in my PUG for this quest.

Also, 70 AC is unnecessary. I was at 59 and could barely be touched, granted this was on normal.

I got absolutely shredded in there last night at 66 or 67.

Last few times I brought my tank I'd felt like I was barely getting hit at 62-63. Went and sunk 12 APs into tower mastery to grow some more AC and all of a sudden I was getting rocked. I'm gonna watch my combat log like a hawk when he's off timer in 3 days though.

And yeah, swapping a level 6 spell shouldn't be that big a deal.

[Aspenor]

I got absolutely shredded in there last night at 66 or 67.

Don't forget to use that shield!!! Shield mastery and improved shield mastery help out in a major way.

[kaelis]

I've run Vision atleast 4 times compleiton on various toons, in partial guild groups and pugs on argo and i've never seen the cubby hole, where is it? and how do you get into it? I htink it would be a big boost for any of the pugs i join

[Venar]

Level 6 spells are not an easy swap... Acid fog, otto, Disent, Flesh to stone... hard to give up for the rare times where a WF need my heals.

For AC, the difference might be the debuffs. With -6 str and -2 str from the 2 waves, that's -4 to-hit.

For the SP, my sorc landed the scrolls on elite, really, on a roll of 17 and 16.
I have the Greater spell pen feat, the second level of enhancement, and hold a Greater spell pen 6 item in the off-hand while scrolling. Gives me something like +21 (compared to +23 from casting). Ask the crippler for shattermantle.

[Venar]

i've never seen the cubby hole

As you zone in, look behind you, to the left of the entry point. There is a little wall depression there.

[Averroes]

Don't forget to use that shield!!! Shield mastery and improved shield mastery help out in a major way.

I was dual-wielding with low-60s AC until last night -- I grabbed the enhancements and pulled the tower out of the bank for the run last night. I was also getting cursed more than in any previous run, even though my AC was higher -- I thought there was a will save on that curse, but I clearly wasn't rolling one last night. My tank's will save is 35+.

[Aspenor]

I was dual-wielding with low-60s AC until last night -- I grabbed the enhancements and pulled the tower out of the bank for the run last night. I was also getting cursed more than in any previous run, even though my AC was higher -- I thought there was a will save on that curse, but I clearly wasn't rolling one last night. My tank's will save is 35+.

So I take it you were the MT fighting Sulo. This strategy is not what I reccomend. The high AC intimitank type should be used to control the named orthons and bearded devils. You want a DPS character on the horned devil.

[Averroes]

Level 6 spells are not an easy swap... Acid fog, otto, Disent, Flesh to stone... hard to give up for the rare times where a WF need my heals.

For AC, the difference might be the debuffs. With -6 str and -2 str from the 2 waves, that's -4 to-hit.

For the SP, my sorc landed the scrolls on elite, really, on a roll of 17 and 16.
I have the Greater spell pen feat, the second level of enhancement, and hold a Greater spell pen 6 item in the off-hand while scrolling. Gives me something like +21 (compared to +23 from casting). Ask the crippler for shattermantle.

Ya, the AC difference could certainly have been debuffs.

And I'm guessing shattermantle is the difference then to make the scrolls usable -- your own caster level, items, feats and enhancements don't apply to scrolls. The scroll gets a +13 for being at caster level 13, so it's looking like his SR is in the low 30s -- -5 for shattermantle and scrolls start working.

[Borror0]

I got absolutely shredded in there last night at 66 or 67.

At once, I was alone with a cleric and I was keeping the aggro from him while he was rezzing people. I had Sally and 2 Orthons on me... only Sally was touching me.

[Aspenor]

At once, I was alone with a cleric and I was keeping the aggro from him while he was rezzing people. I had Sally and 2 Orthons on me... only Sally was touching me.

Similar here, only I was at 59, and I had 4 orthons on me doing negligible damage while people hacked them down, and the MT held Sulo aggro off to the side.

[Averroes]

So I take it you were the MT fighting Sulo. This strategy is not what I reccomend. The high AC intimitank type should be used to control the named orthons and bearded devils. You want a DPS character on the horned devil.

Interesting. I can usually keep 3 orthos and the boss on me with intimidate. Plus, when he starts throwing chains and the person with his agro has their DPS reduced to zero, intimidate is the only way to keep him from bouncing around.

And when it works well, when only Sulo is up he spends half his time trying to figure out who to attack, because intimidate keeps pulling him off of whoever has his agro.

Although, when I don't have someone with 50 intimidate in the group (which is whenever I don't play my tank...), we put the person with the best DPS on him (or any available warforged fighter-type).


But I'll have to try that way. It'd certainly make agro recognition easier for the rest of the group.

[Borror0]

So I take it you were the MT fighting Sulo. This strategy is not what I reccomend. The high AC intimitank type should be used to control the named orthons and bearded devils. You want a DPS character on the horned devil.

Exactly.

[Averroes]

At once, I was alone with a cleric and I was keeping the aggro from him while he was rezzing people. I had Sally and 2 Orthons on me... only Sally was touching me.

Ya, that's generally been my exerience. So I guess I'm writing it off to Sulo rolling really high last night. :)

[Venar]

The high AC intimitank type should be used to control the named orthons and bearded devils. You want a DPS character on the horned devil.


This is a very interresting point there Asp.
Last run i did, we had a crazy Ac tank (Lormyr) on Sulo, and an intimidated-Ac tank (Aurus' own Iluvathar) as Savior, and the run when really well. So maybe i need to switch around the Savior and Sulo-Tank roles in the strat next time...
Barbarian WFs are rather common... with a dedicated healing sorc, could be the answer.

[Aspenor]

Yep, DPS against Sulo is imperative. Remember, it's not the damage Sulo does which seriously affects clerical resource usage. It's the damage done by the beards and orthons. The longer Sulo stays standing, the more waves of beards come.

[Venar]

I'd like people to chip about caster role. Ideas?

[Aspenor]

Web, buffs, and Cone of Cold against that last wave of fire bats.

Symbol of Death for bats if spell slots allow.

[Venar]

Since we found the Efreeti trick, the last bats are not an issue.

[Borror0]

Web, buffs, and Cone of Cold against that last wave of fire bats.

Symbol of Death for bats if spell slots allow.

Acid Fog helps a ton too.

[Borror0]

Since we found the Efreeti trick, the last bats are not an issue.

Efreeti trick?

[Aspenor]

Efreeti trick?

I read that one as "a bug that will eventually be fixed so don't bother asking, Asp." ;)

[Borror0]

Yep, DPS against Sulo is imperative. Remember, it's not the damage Sulo does which seriously affects clerical resource usage. It's the damage done by the beards and orthons. The longer Sulo stays standing, the more waves of beards come.

Exactly, the "phases" are triggered by her HP dropping, so you put at least one big fat barbarian there.

[Borror0]

I read that one as "a bug that will eventually be fixed so don't bother asking, Asp." ;)

That's how it sounds, just checking.

[Aspenor]

The REAL reason the last bats should not be an issue is that a prepared cleric will have blade barrier loaded, and when Sulo approaches 10% all clerics will fill the room with them.

[Borror0]

The REAL reason the last bats should not be an issue is that a prepared cleric will have blade barrier loaded, and when Sulo approaches 10% all clerics will fill the room with them.

...to then realise Turbine has still not fixed Blade Barrier.:D

[Aspenor]

...to then realise Turbine has still not fixed Blade Barrier.:D

They may not have, but even bugged blade barriers worked fine for us :D Bats? What bats??

[Borror0]

They may not have, but even bugged blade barriers worked fine for us :D Bats? What bats??

Acid Fog works the same... and is not buged. ;)
(Probably even better because those bats have Evasion, right?)

[Venar]

Glad you guys didn't read the original post in which the efreeti part is explained, and immediatly jump to the conclusion that i am exploiting.
Putting up mobs that are immune to fire to counter fire exploding suicide bats is smart. Because you don't fit in the category does not mean others are cheating.

[Aspenor]

Glad you guys didn't read the original post in which the efreeti part is explained, and immediatly jump to the conclusion that i am exploiting.
Putting up mobs that are immune to fire to counter fire exploding suicide bats is smart. Because you don't fit in the category does not mean others are cheating.

Ah, valid point. No offense, I wasn't about to read your step-by-step bit. The format gives me a headache.

[Borror0]

Immediatly jump to the conclusion that i am exploiting.

You should understand that we're used to Summon = Exploit, hehe

[Venar]

We came up with this idea on a run about 10 days ago. I had summoned a Mummy, then dispelled it, stoned it in a corner, and charmed it again to create a "despair" pillar, and see how it affected the mobs.
A few devils got despaired for a few seconds, but overall useless.

The thing remained there untouched, and when the suicide bats appeared, i saw 2 zoom in the mummy and explode, killing it.

Since then, we all cast pets during the last wave, to give bats more tagets. Efreeti and Hell Hounds are best, because of immunities, but anyone with an earth elemental chips in. The more targets, the better.

[juniorpfactors]

We came up with this idea on a run about 10 days ago. I had summoned a Mummy, then dispelled it, stoned it in a corner, and charmed it again to create a "despair" pillar, and see how it affected the mobs.
A few devils got despaired for a few seconds, but overall useless.

The thing remained there untouched, and when the suicide bats appeared, i saw 2 zoom in the mummy and explode, killing it.

Since then, we all cast pets during the last wave, to give bats more tagets. Efreeti and Hell Hounds are best, because of immunities, but anyone with an earth elemental chips in. The more targets, the better.

ACID fog up before bats, stone skin tanks, and as I posted 2 weeks ago, spec in and spam Mass suggestion on Devils, my soc will go threw 30 curse pots on tanks and 60 heal scrolls as back up on anyone who needs help

jrp

cone of cold and target bats and then blow your mana at the end on sulu with coc

[Aranticus]

We came up with this idea on a run about 10 days ago. I had summoned a Mummy, then dispelled it, stoned it in a corner, and charmed it again to create a "despair" pillar, and see how it affected the mobs.
A few devils got despaired for a few seconds, but overall useless.

The thing remained there untouched, and when the suicide bats appeared, i saw 2 zoom in the mummy and explode, killing it.

Since then, we all cast pets during the last wave, to give bats more tagets. Efreeti and Hell Hounds are best, because of immunities, but anyone with an earth elemental chips in. The more targets, the better.

cats ar nice too as they have evasion to help them out by surviving sally's random chain lightning