Toughness a class skill?

[Uproar]

According rjcyberwares' character builder version 2.96, it's possible to select Toughness as a level 1 monk class feat. It also allows you to simulatenously pick it for non-class feat. Is this really possible?

[Rickpa]

It's true!

[darthmaul121783]

yes my fighter has 6 of them. monk took 2 at first

[Yaga_Nub]

According RON'S character builder version 2.96, it's possible to select Toughness as a level 1 monk class feat. It also allows you to simulatenously pick it for non-class feat. Is this really possible?

He's not just a website, he's a person too. :)

[Uproar]

Ron's my hero. Just couldn't remember the name of my hero, hehe.

[aurus33]

According rjcyberwares' character builder version 2.96, it's possible to select Toughness as a level 1 monk class feat. It also allows you to simulatenously pick it for non-class feat. Is this really possible?

Its possible, toughness in on the list of available bonus feats for monks (http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Class:Monk)

[wolfy42]

Yep the new highest max base hp in game now belongs to the dwarven monk 6/fighter 10 build.


10 fighter lvls lets you max yout fighter toughness enhancement for 50 bonus hp
Dwarven toughness enhancement gives you another 50 bonus hp.

You get 3 bonus toughness feats from 6 monk levels.

You can take 6 base toughness feats from normal levels

You still get 6 fighter bonus feats to play around with.

With a starting 20 con (just for kicks) and level up stats into con you could have:

Dwarven Fighter 10/monk 6 32 point

Str 18 (16)
Dex 08 (00)
Int 08 (00)
Con 20 (16)
Wis 08 (00)
Cha 06 (00)


20 base con + 4 from lvl + 2 from dwarven + 2 from earth stance + 6 from item + 1 from litany + 3 from tome=38 (40 with rage spell going)

40 con is +15 hp per lvl.


So base hp without equipment for this character =

20 heroic
10 draconic
48 monk
100 fighter
162 (18 per toughness * 9)
50 dwarven toughness
50 fighter toughness
240 Con 40 (15*16)
=680 hp max

Strength is 4 lower then a normal fighter can reach.....which isn't a huge deal really. You can still have an excellent stunning blow (dwarven tactics and fighter stunning blow enhancement bonuses) and you could max out THF line if you wanted (though probably better to take other feats instead)

With GFL alone you hit 710 max hp.

That is significantly more then barbarians even if they do use all their feats for toughness:)

[wolfy42]

Ooops...I forgot the above build also gets 10 more hp from turtle power monk enhancement.

That brings max hp up to 730 with just GFL item at lvl 16.

I personally find 2 lvls of monkey better then 2 lvls of turtle though at this point.

Boosting monkey past lvl 2 is actually useful. Boosting turtle past lvl 2...not really worth the AP.

Even lvl 2 monkey is an additional 4 energy resistance of all types that stacks with resist energy spells or items you wear....very nice for dmg mitigation which this character thrives on.

AC with the character blows since you fight with a two handed weapon (Staff quite often) so have no shield. You could get decent AC still if you specced for it....but it's not worth it.

Instead, if you go with Robes of Invulnerability at lvl 4 and go with DR as much as possible you end up with a character very like a barbarian.

You get 3 permanent strength bonus from fighter lvl 10....and you get 2 strength bonus when not running in earth stance (from fire stance).

Thats 5 bonus strength all the time....not the 10 you get as a barbarian...but nice since your not raged, can still use items etc.

With your tactical bonus and fighter bonus your Stunning blow DC is actually higher then a barbarians while raged.

You have fighter haste boost as well....allowing for decent output of damage.

Earth stance btw is rarely used (it's nice to show the max HP). It IS worth taking tier 1 and 2 though....not just for the max hp.....but for the attack you get. Tier 1 gives you +4 dmg per hit and tier 2 gives you +8.

They can be alternated while in fire stance (your primary stance) to allow this character to average abotu 4 extra dmg per hit...and to burst bonus dmg of 6 avg per hit for awhile (by switching from one to the other back and fort).

Dmg with this character is certainly not epic......but it's above most sword and boards and your stunning blow with a good staff (at least +6) really rocks.

[Borror0]

That is significantly more then barbarians even if they do use all their feats for toughness:)

False, if a dwarven barbarian wins.

Total Con:
20 Base
4 level ups
2 Barbarian Consitution
2 Dwarven Consitution
6 Enhancement
1 Litany of the Dead
3 Inherent
2 Rage spell
4 Madstone
10 (Hardy) Rage
54 Consitution

192 Base
50 Dwarven Toughness
50 Barbarian Toughness
18 Minos Legend
45 Green Steel
20 Heroic Durability
10 Draconic Vitality
108 Toughness feats
352 Constitution
30 Greater False Life
845

Oh course, you could use a Scourge Choker or a Exceptional Consitution item (and Alchemical potions), to push that higher.

[iruka41]

False, if a dwarven barbarian wins.

Total Con:
20 Base
4 level ups
2 Barbarian Consitution
2 Dwarven Consitution
6 Enhancement
1 Litany of the Dead
3 Inherent
2 Rage spell
4 Madstone
10 (Hardy) Rage
54 Consitution

192 Base
50 Dwarven Toughness
50 Barbarian Toughness
18 Minos Legend
45 Green Steel
20 Heroic Durability
10 Draconic Vitality
108 Toughness feats
352 Constitution
30 Greater False Life
845


With the same gears, that 10 fighter / 6 monk becomes this:

Total Con:
20 Base
4 level ups
2 Dwarven Consitution
6 Enhancement
1 Litany of the Dead
3 Inherent
2 Rage spell
4 Madstone
2 Adept of Rock
44 Consitution

148 Base
50 Dwarven Toughness
50 Fighter Toughness
18 Minos Legend
45 Green Steel
20 Heroic Durability
10 Draconic Vitality
162 Toughness feats
282 Constitution
30 Greater False Life
10 Turtle Enhancement
825

Not much difference there :)

[wolfy42]

Borror,

I didn't add madstones, minos etc to the monk max hp. I said the only equipment bonus was GFL to reach the 730 max hp.

Although you are right....while raged the barbarian could reach a higher total...but if rage wears off your in serious trouble.

The monk/fighters is a much higher standing HP non-raged...and very close to the fully raged barbarians max hp.


When you add in the other bonuses:

4 con from madstone = 36 hp.

18 hp from minos

45 hp from green steel

you add another 99 hp to the 730 base...bringing you to 829 max hp.

That is a tiny bit less hp then your maxed out barbarian hp and the barbarian had to use EVERY FEAT to get there as toughness.

The monk/fighter actually still has 6 full feats he can take:)

The basic difference comes down to this:

Maxed Barbarian boost to Con with greater rage and hardy rage IV is 10 and also can add 2-3 more to con naturally. This is worth 6 bonus hp per lvl.

Lvl 6 monk gives 2 bonus to con from stance and 3 bonus toughness along with turtle power II (3 bonus hp per lvl and 6 extra hp total...and turtle power 2 is 10 extra hp total...=16 hp ...or 1 more extra hp per lvl). Basically the monk gives 5 extra hp per lvl between turtle form, earth stance and 3 extra toughness feats.

The barbarian does naturally get more hp per lvl though (12 vs 10 or 8)....and ends up with slightly more hp....when raged.

This is true only for a completely gimped barbarian who specializes only in hp max and toughness feats. Not even getting stunning blow!!


So again.......the fighter 10/monk 6 is the highest hp working character in the game now. The barbarian can bairly squeek out a tiny more hp (845 max vs 829 max for the monk), but he has absolutely no non-toughness feats at that point.

Even just 1 non-toughness feat on the barbarians part makes them have exactly the same hp (845-16=829).

Meanwhile the Fighter 10/monk 6 build works just fine with 6 fighter feats being used to supplement the huge max hp pool.

[wolfy42]

The monk also gets 10% improved healing (sadly misses 20% by 1 monk lvl). Which is significant with such a high hp pool.

20% would be really great but sadly can't be done while retaining such a high maxed hp (and so many feats).

If you don't care about absolutly maxing your hp.....you could go with 10 monk lvls and 6 fighter levels. This only gives you 4 feats to work with though, reduces your max hp both from more monk lvl (8 hp per lvl vs 10) and from no fighter toughness III or IV. It also prevents your higher stunning blow enhancement etc.

In exchange you would gain improved evasion though (useful since you don't have a high reflex save), better saves across the board, wholeness of body (nice for healing between battles especially with such huge hp totals), higher base AC (doesn't matter your AC blows chunks anyway) and a faster base movement speed (easily compensated for in other ways).

I like the fighter 10/monk 6 best.....it gives a huge hp pool (not beatable by any other "real" build in the game), great healing (110% from all sources), evasion (reflex maxes out at mid 20's or so...but it's still nice to have..and you can snag +5 to that vs spells through dwarven enhancements...a 30 reflex save vs spells is decent enough). DR is achieved through equipment and spells from other players instead of naturally through barbarian lvls. Damage is not quite as good as a barbarian (understatement) but your stunning blow is excellent and you still can pound out some serious dmg.

Honestly no barbarian is going to play without at least Power Attack and probably also Stunning blow.

With those 2 feats (both fighter bonus feats) the Fighter/Monk build has more hp then the Barbarian build even when raged (and no worry about rage dropping and losing the bonus hp).

The fighter monk also gains the ability to heal per hit (FoL) along with bonus damage to hits from earth strikes etc.

You gain a decent bonus across the board on feats (5/5/5 base at monk lvl 5). Fighter lvl 10 gives 7/3/3...for a total at 16 of 12/8/8.

With similar stats the monk build ends up with a significantly better reflex save. Both end up with similar will saves (the monk gets stillness of mind +2, and higher base will save (not to mention +2 to wisdom)...The barbarian gets +4 to will saves when raging) and fairly similar (And very high) fort saves from the extreme con. The real weakness of the barbarian is reflex saves (At least the high max hp barbarian....my rogue 2/barbarian 14 character has great reflex saves) and the monk gets a significantly higher reflex save along with evasion.

Anyway the only point here is that the super high HP fighter/monk is a viable build. Heck you could even take feats to boost your saves more if you want (you have the bonus feats...and don't need THF (small bonus in dmg) etc.

The barbarian can't reach those hp totals without sacrificing too much. He can reach close and still get 2-3 normal feats....but he can't reach the same hp totals without sacrificing too much.

[Borror0]

Although you are right....while raged the barbarian could reach a higher total...but if rage wears off your in serious trouble.

With Constitution that high, I doubt it's going to happen.

[Borror0]

Even just 1 non-toughness feat on the barbarians part makes them have exactly the same hp (845-16=829).

Meanwhile the Fighter 10/monk 6 build works just fine with 6 fighter feats being used to supplement the huge max hp pool.

I don't know, while agree that the barbarian would be better without Toughness, you can improve the barbarian and while keeping HP higher than the 10f/6m. Switch two barbarian levels for fighter levels, meaning 4 less HP, and you get Improved Critical and PA. Jus there, the barbarian has better DPS than the fighter/monk.

Anyhow, both are bad builds.

[wolfy42]

With Constitution that high, I doubt it's going to happen.

Your rage still wears off...yes...you can rage again......and yes with a high con it lasts much longer...so you'll be able to perma-rage...but it still does wear off.

And anyway as shown above unless the barbarian doesn't take any non-toughness feats (Which most people would consider seriously gimped and non-playable) the fighter/monk has more max hp even when the barbarian is raged.

[Borror0]

And anyway as shown above unless the barbarian doesn't take any non-toughness feats (Which most people would consider seriously gimped and non-playable) the fighter/monk has more max hp even when the barbarian is raged.

So? The barbarian will still be a better toon.

[wolfy42]

True, I doubt anyone is going to make either.

The Fighter 10/monk 6 Dwarven build though does have some decent advantages for a monk.

Very high Stunning blow compared to other monk builds (better in many ways then stunning fist).

Much higher hp then most monks.

Much higher damage then most monks.

Weakness is no AC...but hey that can be compensated for in some ways.

It wouldn't be on the list of top 10 builds I would like to play if I had another slot....but it would certainly be playable.

A pure toughness barbarian though?

Not gonna happen.

And yes...you can take fighter lvls instead of barbarian....that will help...but it also reduces the difference in max hp at the same time. I forget what lvl Barbarian Hardy Rage IV is at as well...you need enhancement to reach your max hp. Even though the crit rage is lowered currently it's going back to 12/14...so you need at least 14 barbarian lvls.

2 fighter lvls would give you 2 bonus feats (power attack/stunning blow) and that could work I guess....and have a similar amount of HP the the fighter/monk.


Still not on my toplists of builds to play though:)

[Inspire]

Either Way, Your A Clerics Worst Nightmare!

A Bagillion Hps, With 0 Dps!

Must Have Intimidate, And The New Hound Shield, Could Be A Suuly Intimi-Tank.

[Borror0]

Still not on my toplists of builds to play though:)

Me neither. ;)

[iruka41]

So? The barbarian will still be a better toon.

Not worth to say that IMO.
It's just a matter of 'bad' and 'worse', not 'good' and 'better' :)

How many enhancement points are left there to spend in Mighty/Extend/Extra Rages,
after you already maxed HP enhancements, Hardy Rage, CON enhancements? I doubt you have enough.

42 points spent to get max HP, and 6 more points into Crit Rage II,
now there's only 16 points left to put into Mighty/Extra/Extend Rages.
(That is if you give up all boosts too)

Don't think that kinda barb is any way better than that fighter/monk.
(I'm not saying the fighter/monk is better either. I'm saying there's no point.)

[Borror0]

Don't think that kinda barb is any way better than that fighter/monk.
(I'm not saying the fighter/monk is better either. I'm saying there's no point.)

Bah, he has higher DPS and similar or equal saves to the monk. Only place where the monk is better is Evasion...

[iruka41]

Bah, he has higher DPS and similar or equal saves to the monk. Only place where the monk is better is Evasion...

Well, the monk has higher reflex save and evasion. Dwarves with about 20 reflex save can make save alomost every spells in the game due to their natural spell saves and enhancements. And the monk recieves better heals. I personally think it is well suited with the high HP concept. He will get less hurt, he is more easily healed. Only place the barb is better is that already low, little bit higher DPS... I'll say they're even.. Especially when the monk is using dual-vorp kamas :) Cause the barb will NEVER be good at vorpalling since he doesn't have TWF with the HP build.

[Borror0]

Well, the monk has higher reflex save and evasion. Dwarves with about 20 reflex save can make save alomost every spells in the game due to their natural spell saves and enhancements. And the monk recieves better heals. I personally think it is well suited with the high HP concept. He will get less hurt, he is more easily healed. Only place the barb is better is that already low, little bit higher DPS... I'll say they're even.. :)

Can we start arguing about which bad builds is the less worse?:p

[iruka41]

Can we start arguing about which bad builds is the less worse?:p

Don't think we need to lol.

[Borror0]

Don't think we need to lol.

Brain fart of mine, I meant stop.. XD

[Maegin]

Wow, you actually gave up for once O_o lol! jk ^_^

[Myxalplyx]

Bringing back up from the dead

I have just created two of these horrors on the Khyber server.......just because.

Lvl 13: Dwarven/Barbarian (Name: HPS)
Total HP = 513 Unraged (About 58? raged).
Notes: Besides HP, I try to get damage reduction in where I can. Only a dr of 5 now. Took all toughness feats.

Lvl 10: Warforged/Monk (Name: Toughness)
Total HP = 324
Took all toughness feats. Doesn't seem like warforged damage reduction stacks with the feat. Correct me if I'm wrong. Seeing Adamantine separated from regular damage reduction. Sucks!

Strangely enough, the Dwarven Barbarian doesn't get hurt that much on quest. At least the hp bar doesn't seem like it. My warforged/monk gets beat down quite often soloing. In a group, he fairs ok.

Will continue both gimp builds to the max just to see how they end up. Each carry 400+ pots on them so no biggy. With the candy canes helping out as well......they are always healing (especially the warforged). Will see how they turn out. :D

[Aerendil]

Also keep in mind that the Monk/Fighter combination will have Evasion, great saves, the ability to self-heal, and quite possibly amazing AC as well.

12 Fighter (Kensai) / 8 Monk for end-game is looking pretty good, especially if Human (dragonmark line will grant Dimension Door, replacing the level 12 Monk ability - but still having access to Wholeness of Body).

[QuantumFX]

(dragonmark line will grant Dimension Door, replacing the level 12 Monk ability - but still having access to Wholeness of Body).

If you’re referring to abundant step - No, it won't replace it in DDO. Abundant Step is simply the best DDO monk feat ever.

[Myxalplyx]

My warforged/monk (Toughness) is lvl 15 now. He has 590hp. So far so good.

http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/585/toughness.jpg

[Borror0]

My warforged/monk (Toughness) is lvl 15 now. He has 590hp. So far so good.
You should consider trading some of that HP for AC... or even DPS...

[rimble]

My warforged/monk (Toughness) is lvl 15 now. He has 590hp. So far so good.

That's awesome! I mean, please don't group with me, but that's an awesome screenshot and a crazy build!

[Myxalplyx]

You should consider trading some of that HP for AC... or even DPS...

This was only done to see what would happen if I went for straight HP as monk. Trading in HP for anything would be against the toons name 'Toughness'. :D I already have a lvl 16 warforged/monk build with ok AC (Adamantimonk). This was only a gimp-test build.

[Borror0]

This was only a gimp-test build.
Well, he gets full marks. I have never seen such a pure class gimp.

[Myxalplyx]

Not quite capped yet since I have been playing my other toons but 'Toughness' is at level 16 now. I have no raid or special items yet. Just the mountain stance and the toughness feat (of course). I am at 636hp now.

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/4008/toughness2.jpg


Also, I am not too much of a threat to any groups. I have some levels of Healer's friend and monk recovery. As far as pots go, I always carry 800 repair pots on me at all times. Inventory is considered low at 600 pots. :o:D