Uber loot vs A challenging gaming experience

[MJNOR1]

I am all for Uber loot; who doesn't get excited when they pull a +2 Con Tome or a Power V item? I know I do.

But I'm torn between the excitement of finding those kind of items and the use of those items in game creating a gaming experience that has no challenges.

What do you think? Isn't one of the expectations of playing this game to provide us with a challenging experience? If we build a character that is so Uber that he/she is unstoppable and just walks through every enemy doesn't it make the game pointless?

Chime in, I'd love to hear your input.

[bobbryan2]

I think there are plenty of challenges in this game that require uber loot to even be passable at. Uber loot doesn't take away all the challenges in the game, and in fact it opens up some crazy hard ones.

[Pallol_One-Eye]

I think there are plenty of challenges in this game that require uber loot to even be passable at. Uber loot doesn't take away all the challenges in the game, and in fact it opens up some crazy hard ones.

Thats what elite is for! Vale quests are turbo run now, but elite can still present some interesting challenges. Same with the Shroud, the Hound or the Devil. The game is what you make of it IMHO.

And just for the record, I have a few decent items, but 20 hrs of gametime per week does not make me a powergamer...just food for thought.

[Freeman]

Try Running with the Devils on Elite. Even with uber loot(I'm sure everyone in the group had something that qualified) and a good group, it still felt like, well, like a level appropriate group trying to run the original Taming the Flames quest, pre-nerf.

[Dawnblade]

Totally agree. In my opinion, loot is bandaid for lack of content. It takes less time to create than original quests and gives the palpable (well not really) reward to the players. It gives them a "grand finale". To me, grinding through 100 monsters gets old after a while regardless of how good the loot reward is. Like I said on another thread: I would prefer a great quest with a meh reward than a great loot reward with a meh quest.

I'm all for spending more time developing the background of the quests and adding puzzles, traps, hidden doors, and any other non mob challenge that will give me a break from swinging my sword.

[silverraven]

Even the uberest (is that a word?) loot doesn't make you a god. Tanks will still need healing, casters will still need tanks, and clerics will still complain about being poor :D This game is plenty challenging, besides I never pull the "uber" loot :mad::rolleyes:

[Dawnblade]

Oh maybe I got this thread wrong. When I think of challanges I was thinking more of variety of challanges; things other than combat. But judging by most of the other responses we are talking about making raids with harder mobs? WoW has a lot of that and in my opinion it gets old fast. This game has a lot of potential to follow a different path offering other kinds of challanges. I hope the devs continue to explore them :)

[MJNOR1]

Oh maybe I got this thread wrong. When I think of challanges I was thinking more of variety of challanges; things other than combat. But judging by most of the other responses we are talking about making raids with harder mobs? WoW has a lot of that and in my opinion it gets old fast. This game has a lot of potential to follow a different path offering other kinds of challanges. I hope the devs continue to explore them :)

Just to clarify my point: I'm wondering if others feel that too much Uber loot degrades the gaming experience by making it too easy for a Character to complete quests and thereby making the game without challenges?

[gfunk]

my main ranger has duel wields all the power 5s and has several tier 2/3 weapons , has plenty of raid loot, and +2 tomes on most stats. I still feel squishy, and have to play carefully. Shroud elite (even normal if im in a challanged group), and the new raids, plus short manning other quests... all of these things provide challenge. Plus, there is always the challenge of starting a new class.

[Borror0]

Try Running with the Devils on Elite. Even with uber loot(I'm sure everyone in the group had something that qualified) and a good group, it still felt like, well, like a level appropriate group trying to run the original Taming the Flames quest, pre-nerf.

hehe, seems that run was painful, eh?:D

Not only Running with the Devil... but A Vision of Destruction, or Shroud on Elite. Even with uber loot, those can go pretty bad at any moment. I did Shroud Elite last night on my caster, trust me, I wish I had perfect loot. There is enough challenge in the game for people with Great loot. Does Great loot make some quests easy? Well, yes, if you have the skill level for it too. But not the whole game, you'll still find challenge.

[winsom]

some of the most game-balance breaking items I can think of right now:

Water-breathing, Feather Falling, Striding, Heavy Fortification, Wounding + Puncturing, Smiting, Banishing, Disrupting, Paralyzing, Sword of Shadows, Green Steel weaponry, Fearsome, Deathblock, Fear Immunity, Poison Immunity..

Some of these exist in D&D, while some do not in the more powerful DDO form. One D&D character was never intended to be able to collect all of these and more. the MMO version becomes an interesting & over-powered loot-fest doesn't it? Fun at times, to be super-heoric, but also anti-climactic other times because the loot can make battles much too easy.

It might be an interesting change of pace to play with a guild that agrees not to use any of those permanent items. The concept wouldn't work unless everyone in the party agreed to it. There would be a lot of spell-caster-envy through because that is the way that actual D&D is set up. Casters do all the reality-bending combat effects to tactical advantage while the non-casters do most of the damage to win the fights. DDO blurs those lines by letting non-spellcasters carry around potent permanent spell effects of almost every sort imaginable. Death Ward and Natural Armor are still very ellusive to have. I find that very odd considering all the rest that DDO lets us get away with.

[suitepotato]

If you want a wider variety of challenges, get a mortgage and a wife. Then you can do quests like The Time of the Month Which Kills, Running With the Bankers, and Damned If You Do, Damned If You Don't, Pretty Much Screwed All the Way Around, all of which disallow anything like uber loot and usually take it from you.

Sort of like how we go to work to make money to buy gas to go to work to make money to buy gas to go to work to make money to buy gas to go to work to make money to buy gas to go to work to make money to buy gas to go to work to make money to buy gas to go to work to make money to buy gas to go to work to make money to buy gas to go to work to make money, that's how DDO is.

We play loot for weapons to beat quests to loot for weapons to beat quests to loot for weapons to beat quests to loot for weapons to beat quests to loot for weapons to beat quests to loot for weapons to beat quests to loot for weapons to beat quests to loot for weapons to beat quests to loot for weapons to beat quests...

And there's no such thing as game breaking due to effects of weapons and items or spells. We don't get any of the many many cool spells of AD&D like say... Wish, Geas, Leomund's Tiny Hut, Bigby's Various Hand Spells (which used to elicit a cry before their use, "this is a job for Bigby's Grasping Hand!" followed by the usual hand followed by job comments)... My personal favorite was casting Continual Light on various objects, monster body parts, other party members. Remember the Dragon article about making light grenades? Right up there in the top five along with the What's New with Phil and Dixie Sex and D&D theme which they continuously never got to. (Oh wait... They did. (http://www.airshipentertainment.com/growfcomic.php?date=20080622) Yes, the link is safe, Foglio never put his nasty stuff in The Dragon, TSR didn't allow that kind of thing.)

If this game embraced the entire slew of spells from the game, without changing the stat dynamics, we'd be able to four man a raid on the gods themselves. To make this game anything like the old one, where you truly had to have not only fantastic characters but actual planning and devious machinations to take on devils and demons, we'd have to do a lot of changes.

The way things work now is much simpler. It needs to be, but I also think that simplicity leads to a lack of combinatoric complexity that the pnp game always gave us. Over time if Turbine does things like they did with Three Barrel Cove, it could get better. But loot has about nothing to do with making the game less challenging. If anything, without it, it would be completely frustrating.

[Impaqt]

I think people need to stop worrying about whats challening/entertaining for everyone else and focus on what YOU want out of the game.

DDO does a fantastic job of provided variable challenge levels. WHether its Permadeath, n/h/e Settings, Soloing, no Twink, or whatever else anyone can think of, theres is a game here for everyone.

[ccheath776]

I am all for Uber loot; who doesn't get excited when they pull a +2 Con Tome or a Power V item? I know I do.

But I'm torn between the excitement of finding those kind of items and the use of those items in game creating a gaming experience that has no challenges.

What do you think? Isn't one of the expectations of playing this game to provide us with a challenging experience? If we build a character that is so Uber that he/she is unstoppable and just walks through every enemy doesn't it make the game pointless?

Chime in, I'd love to hear your input.

This game is like MTG.
You dont have to have the best to be the best. Its just really helpful.

I dont think the uber loot unbalances the game in the least bit. You could have the most awesome weapon in the game, It wont protect you against a mob that can pile drive you for 500 HP.

[MJNOR1]

I think people need to stop worrying about whats challening/entertaining for everyone else and focus on what YOU want out of the game.

DDO does a fantastic job of provided variable challenge levels. WHether its Permadeath, n/h/e Settings, Soloing, no Twink, or whatever else anyone can think of, theres is a game here for everyone.

I am not worrying about what's challenging or entertaining for everyone else. I was simply attempting to utilize the forums for what I perceive as their purpose; to stimulate thoughtful discussion and as a learning tool about this wonderful game.

I totally agree that DDO does a wonderful job at this game overall.