wheres the ranged love

[Torilin]

Ok so yesterday ran a quick offering for flagging and one of the peeps I was running with pulled the Spectral Gloves. These are very nice gloves but I had a question why does the ghost touch effect only work with melee. This is a continuing trend of melee only enhancements to armor and items. Take note Breastplate of Destruction, Crippling Chain only work with melee.

Are we afraid of making a ranged character to powerfull, from what I can tell its the melee that needs to be scaled back, nobody makes ranged rangers anymore because they can be more effective with tempest builds and twf builds.

Please show some ranged love.

[cpito]

I have very few problems finding space for my ranged ranger :)

[Torilin]

well my question is why are they excluding ranged form these special items and armor?

[Selinius]

Because if you stand in the back plinking away with your bow and arrows you are not taking any damage. If you are in melee beating on stuff, you get beat on back taking damage. So melee's get the cool stuff because they are taking the risk and damage, where as the bow user can stand back and plink away without taking damage and have to use the appropriate bows to destruct or cripple.

Its risk vs. reward, if my twf halfling barbs goes toe to toe with The Hound or General Sulu, he should get the cool armor or item. Besides, you already answered your own question, rangers are more effective in melee as a Temptest than ranging with a bow. Once a ranged ranger runs out of arrows, thier usefulness drops to about nil, where as a temptest ranger only gets to nil usefulness if he dies and isn't rezed.

[bobbryan2]

Ok so yesterday ran a quick offering for flagging and one of the peeps I was running with pulled the Spectral Gloves. These are very nice gloves but I had a question why does the ghost touch effect only work with melee. This is a continuing trend of melee only enhancements to armor and items. Take note Breastplate of Destruction, Crippling Chain only work with melee.

Are we afraid of making a ranged character to powerfull, from what I can tell its the melee that needs to be scaled back, nobody makes ranged rangers anymore because they can be more effective with tempest builds and twf builds.

Please show some ranged love.

Are you basing that off the description or have you tried it? Last time I was shooting with my bow with the gloves on, I didn't notice any incorporeal messaging.

[darkrune]

Because if you stand in the back plinking away with your bow and arrows you are not taking any damage. If you are in melee beating on stuff, you get beat on back taking damage. So melee's get the cool stuff because they are taking the risk and damage, where as the bow user can stand back and plink away without taking damage and have to use the appropriate bows to destruct or cripple.

Its risk vs. reward, if my twf halfling barbs goes toe to toe with The Hound or General Sulu, he should get the cool armor or item. Besides, you already answered your own question, rangers are more effective in melee as a Temptest than ranging with a bow. Once a ranged ranger runs out of arrows, thier usefulness drops to about nil, where as a temptest ranger only gets to nil usefulness if he dies and isn't rezed.

have you ever played a ranger????????

Try looking at arcane archer NEVER run out of arrows, with a tier 3 lightning bow 150+ damage hits and a umd of 40 to top it off. with manyshot for 20 seconds 3 arrows a shot and the chance for the crit...

I am so sick of people saying ranged rangers are gimped.

Dark

[bobbryan2]

have you ever played a ranger????????

Try looking at arcane archer NEVER run out of arrows, with a tier 3 lightning bow 150+ damage hits and a umd of 40 to top it off. with manyshot for 20 seconds 3 arrows a shot and the chance for the crit...

I am so sick of people saying ranged rangers are gimped.

Dark

And yet... Melee rangers are more powerful.

;)

My melee ranger has the tempest enhancement, dual lightning strike dwarven axes, 200ish crits with the mainhand, and about 160 with the offhand, etc.

Ranged rangers won't ever put out the DPS of melee.

It's just a fact.

[Selinius]

Are we afraid of making a ranged character to powerfull, from what I can tell its the melee that needs to be scaled back, nobody makes ranged rangers anymore because they can be more effective with tempest builds and twf builds.

Please show some ranged love.

Even the OP at least acknowledges that ranged rangers lag behind in the dps department. Arcane Archer, are you kidding me? Of the 3 ranger specalties, that is by far the weakest one. Unlimited arrows, grats, you are saveing chump change all for what, a +20 to hit clicky? Bow rate of fire is slow, crit rate is weak, the only benifit you get is that if you play right, you can slef heal from your own sp. Melee rangers are superior to bow ranger, no questions asked.

Yes, I have played a ranger. Killed him off to make room for my bard, thanks.

[Missing_Minds]

Ok so yesterday ran a quick offering for flagging and one of the peeps I was running with pulled the Spectral Gloves. These are very nice gloves but I had a question why does the ghost touch effect only work with melee. This is a continuing trend of melee only enhancements to armor and items. Take note Breastplate of Destruction, Crippling Chain only work with melee.

Are we afraid of making a ranged character to powerfull, from what I can tell its the melee that needs to be scaled back, nobody makes ranged rangers anymore because they can be more effective with tempest builds and twf builds.

Please show some ranged love.

If this is true.. I wonder if the properties of the original bracers of etheralness changed as well or if they were always only melee.

[Gadget2775]

If this is true.. I wonder if the properties of the original bracers of etheralness changed as well or if they were always only melee.

The bracers are different from the item currently under discussion. However, I was using them (Ethereal Bracers) quite effectively with my Disruption bow yesterday. Not a single Incorporeal message.

[Missing_Minds]

The bracers are different from the item currently under discussion. However, I was using them (Ethereal Bracers) quite effectively with my Disruption bow yesterday. Not a single Incorporeal message.

Thanks for posting that. Makes me wonder if a different coding scheme was used as compared to what was intended. Now to see if we can't get a dev to have a look at this.

[foxBlade]

And yet... Melee rangers are more powerful.

;)

My melee ranger has the tempest enhancement, dual lightning strike dwarven axes, 200ish crits with the mainhand, and about 160 with the offhand, etc.

Ranged rangers won't ever put out the DPS of melee.

It's just a fact.

You're probably right most of the time, but don't overlook improved precise shot. If you set up your shots right, you can do 100+ per pull on multiple mobs, a kind of non-magical area of affect attack which you can't do with melee.

[tihocan]

You're probably right most of the time, but don't overlook improved precise shot. If you set up your shots right, you can do 100+ per pull on multiple mobs, a kind of non-magical area of affect attack which you can't do with melee.
Melees have cleave/great cleave/whirwind.

[Sue_Dark]

Personally, I prefer combo rangers. My main (Fyshie) switches from melee to missile as required and has weapons of all flavors for both groups of attacks. Meanwhile, my up-and-comming Dorf ranger is a melee tank that pulls out a bow if the mob is out of reach or a lever on the ceiling needs shooting.

The best rangers know when to use a bow and when not to, regardless of specialties.

One of the times I never pull a bow is against incorp targets. Phasing in and out, P.I.T.A to target unless they bug on an obstacle, and I can take em down alot faster with ghost touch/disruption melee weapons.

[Sue_Dark]

Personally, I prefer combo rangers. My main (Fyshie) switches from melee to missile as required and has weapons of all flavors for both groups of attacks. Meanwhile, my up-and-comming Dorf ranger is a melee tank that pulls out a bow if the mob is out of reach or a lever on the ceiling needs shooting.

The best rangers know when to use a bow and when not to, regardless of specialties.

One of the times I never pull a bow is against incorp targets. Phasing in and out, P.I.T.A to target unless they bug on an obstacle, and I can take em down alot faster with ghost touch/disruption melee weapons.

And on the topic of the OP... I dont think we really need any love atm. If these items dont work with ranged, no big deal, just switch weapons. (I know, maybe you dont want to, but thats my opinion)

[Delzon]

I have a ranged ranger, and I will be the first to admit it is gimped. Simply by the fact that I can be an elf take all the feats and enhancements for ranged, have a great bow and I can still just grab two swords and do more damage over time then with a bow. That is why a tempest ranger is great be cause you can have the best of both worlds. Be a melee fighter but if need be grab a bow and manyshot something. There is nothing in the game right now that make a ranged ranger unique, something that is their own. I love playing my ranged ranger but I know he doesn't add to a group as much as a tempest ranger or other melee type.

[CSFurious]

but, i submit the best rangers fight both ways

also, you will not be fighting like you describe until end-game

i would rather bring a tempest ranger along for the journey to capped


have you ever played a ranger????????

Try looking at arcane archer NEVER run out of arrows, with a tier 3 lightning bow 150+ damage hits and a umd of 40 to top it off. with manyshot for 20 seconds 3 arrows a shot and the chance for the crit...

I am so sick of people saying ranged rangers are gimped.

Dark

[Brianius]

ethereal bracer's are a decent replacement for the set you'll need to farm in the new raids.

[Vizzini]

More complaints about Ranged combat

***siiiighhhh***

*ponders why he wandered into this thread*

[Torilin]

Many of you have answered my questions, I know ranged rangers dont do as much dmg as tempest rangers, my ranger fights both ways, and that is my point, why would these specialty items work for melee only? Since melee is obviously superior (i agree) why do developers continue to make them even more superior with awesome gear.

A ranged ranger is a great support mechanism for any party, they can stand back use their bow and do many other things without trying to tank, leave that to all the dps'ers out there.

[Selinius]

Many of you have answered my questions, I know ranged rangers dont do as much dmg as tempest rangers, my ranger fights both ways, and that is my point, why would these specialty items work for melee only? Since melee is obviously superior (i agree) why do developers continue to make them even more superior with awesome gear.

A ranged ranger is a great support mechanism for any party, they can stand back use their bow and do many other things without trying to tank, leave that to all the dps'ers out there.

Because when DDO was just a twinkle is someone's eye and they started hashing out ideas for it, they decided "melee is king". Ranged combat was viewed as support. Since melee is king, they get all the cool toys.

[Puke]

Because if you stand in the back plinking away with your bow and arrows you are not taking any damage. If you are in melee beating on stuff, you get beat on back taking damage. So melee's get the cool stuff because they are taking the risk and damage, where as the bow user can stand back and plink away without taking damage and have to use the appropriate bows to destruct or cripple.

Its risk vs. reward, if my twf halfling barbs goes toe to toe with The Hound or General Sulu, he should get the cool armor or item. Besides, you already answered your own question, rangers are more effective in melee as a Temptest than ranging with a bow. Once a ranged ranger runs out of arrows, thier usefulness drops to about nil, where as a temptest ranger only gets to nil usefulness if he dies and isn't rezed.

[edit: I don't agree with you]

Ranging never has one "plinking away" in the utmost of safety. Once the Ranger pulls aggro, that monster is upon him in no time. I'm sure you've seen many instances of the Ranger kiting a monster around in circles. And once that monster is chasing the archer-based Ranger, the relative slowness of ranging really becomes acute on top of the fact you have to run around backwards tripping over everything and maintaining the monster in your forward hemisphere.

On top of that, many monsters can range back be it with weapons or spells. It also sounds like your only tactic for this game is to go toe-toe with a monster and have the Cleric along to heal you and you cannot think outside the box.

Roll a Ranger and give it a go if you think it's so absolutely safe.

Hey, moderator. Don't edit my comments. I think the guy is a moron!

[Selinius]

I have rolled/played a ranger. I know about kiting. I have seen good rangers and I have seen not so good rangers. Do I think ranged combat is gimped. Not really, it has its ups and down, just ike melee. With melee, you have to get up close and personal to do damage. With a bow/x-bow, you can stand back and shoot the mobs that have agroed on someone else, or kite something around to help out the group. Melee you have to give up your personal safety to do damgae, where with ranged you can play smart and reduce the risk of taking damage to a minimal amount(good play), or be one of the not so good and turn on autoattack and just hit the tab button till you start getting attack rolls and pull agro that you may or may not be able to handle.

I have seen both sides of the picture, and it still doesn't change the fact that DDO is melee-centric, so melees get the cool toys.

[Turial]

well my question is why are they excluding ranged form these special items and armor?

Simplest answer...the devs hate ranged combat. Well codog doesnt, he tried to help us...and then mysteriously vanished.

[Puke]

I have rolled/played a ranger. I know about kiting. I have seen good rangers and I have seen not so good rangers. Do I think ranged combat is gimped. Not really, it has its ups and down, just ike melee. With melee, you have to get up close and personal to do damage. With a bow/x-bow, you can stand back and shoot the mobs that have agroed on someone else, or kite something around to help out the group. Melee you have to give up your personal safety to do damgae, where with ranged you can play smart and reduce the risk of taking damage to a minimal amount(good play), or be one of the not so good and turn on autoattack and just hit the tab button till you start getting attack rolls and pull agro that you may or may not be able to handle.

I have seen both sides of the picture, and it still doesn't change the fact that DDO is melee-centric, so melees get the cool toys.

You've never played an archer-oriented character. Nothing you say will make me believe that. It's not as safe as you purport and you would know this. I respect those who can do it well while being a contributor to the party.

First off, you describe ranging as being only a support element to the melee yet also state it's not gimped. I find this interesting. Just how is this support when you can bring in another melee character instead in his place who will drop a lot more Monster HP than anyone ranging? Why is support ever needed?

Anyhow, big whoop about getting up-close for the melees, the melees have d10 or d12 with all sorts of enhancements to Hit Points, can wear the heavy armors and all kinds of enhancements to them, can don a shield if really needed, and their attacks are practically twice as fast as ranging and they typically consider the Cleric as an equipped item that should constantly heal them whether they use the proper tactics to avoid damage or not. Melees can play smarter too, you know and do not have to rush into the middle of a mob and get surrounded by axe swings.

If you think ranging never draws aggro or kiting is as safe as you seem to feel while running around these small rooms and corridors shooting at half melee speed with that -4 to-hit while tripping over boxes, tables, walls and other monsters behind you, then you are very jaded. And if you do happen to get caught, then you'll know well how slow it indeed is to switch to melee weapons while the monster pummels you. It's very rare that you can ever range anything that doesn't come up on you at warp-speed and when those monster do stay back, they typically range back and they typically pack a good wallup. It takes freaking forever to kill anything while kiting when not using Manyshot which has such a long cool-down that it's definitely not a constant.

Developers, do you see this attitude? The ranged-character is still seen as only a support to the melees. Support only? I read between the lines and this means archers are not actually needed for any group and in fact are often relegated to being ignored to an invite.

Anyway, you are definitely right on one account. These developers are indeed melee oriented and thus hardly ever consider the ranging aspect when coming up with elite weapons. And after two-years of that BS, this is the main reason I, and my son, have quit. I would like to play an archer that can be invited to group and actually contribute to the group where success is 100% about the kill-count--the only stat for comparison the developers provide. It's all about kill-counts in this game, thanks to Turbine. And thus why the archer is never requested for group and the Ranger holding a bow will be kicked out of a group. But you don't think that is gimped.

[Puke]

[edit: I don't agree with you]

Ranging never has one "plinking away" in the utmost of safety. Once the Ranger pulls aggro, that monster is upon him in no time. I'm sure you've seen many instances of the Ranger kiting a monster around in circles. And once that monster is chasing the archer-based Ranger, the relative slowness of ranging really becomes acute on top of the fact you have to run around backwards tripping over everything and maintaining the monster in your forward hemisphere.

On top of that, many monsters can range back be it with weapons or spells. It also sounds like your only tactic for this game is to go toe-toe with a monster and have the Cleric along to heal you and you cannot think outside the box.

Roll a Ranger and give it a go if you think it's so absolutely safe.

Hey, moderator. Don't edit my comments. I think the guy is a moron!

Look, moderator... I called the guy ignorant. You have to edit that out? Shouldn't you be painting your D&D figurines, arguing the inconsistencies in Star Trek story-lines or dressing up as your favorite Halfling at the local Tolkein Convention?

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I have a ranged ranger, and I will be the first to admit it is gimped. Simply by the fact that I can be an elf take all the feats and enhancements for ranged, have a great bow and I can still just grab two swords and do more damage over time then with a bow. That is why a tempest ranger is great be cause you can have the best of both worlds. Be a melee fighter but if need be grab a bow and manyshot something. There is nothing in the game right now that make a ranged ranger unique, something that is their own. I love playing my ranged ranger but I know he doesn't add to a group as much as a tempest ranger or other melee type.

This is my biggest arguement too.

I made a ranged specced Ftr......took a whole bunch of ranged feats. Made him dex based with a 10 Str....
And he still did better DPS in melee than he did in ranged combat. :(

Real sad.

Actually, after he got Improved Crit ranged he does now do better in ranged combat.......but at his best he is a master of a gimped fighting style, that no one wnats or respects anway.

You can argue how good your ranged specced ranger is all day......but with the exception of one or two raids.....you will never hear anyone say "we need a bow guy now". In fact it took them a month to realise that the Shroud was actually easy when you had a few rangers using bows.........

Ranged combat is gimped (for everyone)
No one respects a ranged specced toon, even when he's good.

And worse.........I don't blame them. :(

[Turial]

You've never played an archer-oriented character. Nothing you say will make me believe that. It's not as safe as you purport and you would know this. I respect those who can do it well while being a contributor to the party.


And those that can do it are few and far between. Think rarer then the very rare DPS barbarian that is fully self sufficient and doesnt take damage like a dwarf drinks ale.

[Puke]

There is nothing in the game right now that make a ranged ranger unique, something that is their own.

Sure there is. What's unique about a ranged character is you won't ever be invited to group. :D


I dare any archery-type to put in their comments "ranged only" so that it is visible to anyone creating a group and see how long it takes to get into a group or to level up a few levels compared to your other characters.

[query]

gee I don't seem to have problems playing my ranged ranger asassin. I'm smart and let the big yelling hit first warriors grab the attention and damage, then one shot dead or 3/4 life gone. By the time the enemy confusedly tries to decide whom to go to, the're dead from that last shot.

This isn't about DPS, this isn't about the most kills, this is about winning and not being hurt.

Period.

If I had to effectively solo kolbald assult on elite while my team were acting like morons and killed most of em anyway and only died once as I dropped and was healing from diehard and they ran right over me with the kolbold doing an AOE spell, that says much for taking out about 130 of them myself. The one time I will brag about kill count.

And was it done through plinky? No, camoflauge, invisibility, aimed shots and plenty of running and hidding taking out small groups first.


A good ranged ranger lets somebody else take the aggro and softenn them up a bit. Then, they can manyshot and snipershot them into death. A smarter ranger also knows how to outspeed the enemy that tracks you down for in party kiting (for casters, or other ranged attacks; not asking the too dumb to take out a bow melees to be able to hit the running npc.)

ANd finally, when they just get too close, knowing when to sheathe that bow and go two weapon on their ass and clean up the already badly wounded mob enemy.

Not only do I rarely die on these missions (I did deleras on all difficulties 1-2 levels personally lower than needed) I am rarely hurt either. When I am, I take healing from my stash or use the party's if it can be afforded (as they patch up those barbarian/tempest rangers.)


The trick is to learn HOW to play a ranged character that COMPLEMENTS the melee fighter, not tries to outdo it. The name of the game is to win, not count the bodies per player. I can do that very well.

ANd if in deep dung solo with monsters all around, go invisible, hide and hope my party and I reunite soon.

Stupidity and skill are two different things.

Oh, and adding a level of rogue when I clean up the messes the others failed to be ready for (like those fighters running the elite traps and who has to get their stone to the box on the other end?)


So, look at your enhancements and see rangers get a LOT of love.

If you don't believe me, ask the Paladin right now.

(Pity stupid playing makes many of these opinions and more people don't use tactics over zerging/smacking)

[Milolyen]

Ranged combat is a specialty. Generally speaking either you are good at it (timing with that multishot, lining up the mobs for arrows to hit multiple targets, knowing which bows to use and when) or you are not and also need to know when to get in and melee despite wanting to use bows. Those of you that are not good at this will always think that ranged is gimp. The main problem I have with Milolyen is finding a group that knows how to fight and quest with me.

Fight with me, What does that exactly mean? It means ...

If I am kitting something away from group then let it go.

If I am kitting something that needs to be dead like NOW then form up a quick 3 man wall and let me run the mob into you. If I hold agroe and get far enough away he will just try and run past and not attack you leaveing you free to do all the dmg you want. This works particularly well in combo with acid fog against the red named you can run into on the way to hound. I hold agro on red while everyone finishes off the lesser renders and beholder, I take no dmg from the named and run him into the acid lets everyone surround him while I hold agroe. He has always died before I lost agroe as well.

Acid fog is like my favorite spell ever (when it isn't the enemy casting it).

Favorite hound run was a pug I joined with ranger. Leader called for me to join the roaming team and insisted everyone go same direction. I did an "oops thought you ment other way" and had the entire west and north side dead and met up with them in the north east corner where I handed the charm stones to the leader (who was collecting stones). He asked in voice chat "where did you get these?" and just replied "off the two mindflayers that spawned in the north west". He could not belive I did that that quick.

Granted ranged does not do the dps that melee does in certain situations ... but in others it can easily do a LOT more. Sorry but if I got a line of 4-8 mobs there is no way you are going to out dmg me because I get 4-8 full hits while you are getting your 4 with twf (2 at .5 str). Then to toss on multishot while haveing that line of 4-8 mobs and I get 16 - 64 full hits to what your FOUR? I also have little issue with not being able to hit moveing mobs where melees will (if feared or running back to cast spells or trying to use range instead of melee). Most people's concept of "dps" is a bit off in this game. People want to compair dmg of like to like in reference to ONE mob .... where in this game do you just fight ONE mob. A few raids and that is it.

Milolyen

[Aranticus]

gee I don't seem to have problems playing my ranged ranger asassin. I'm smart and let the big yelling hit first warriors grab the attention and damage, then one shot dead or 3/4 life gone. By the time the enemy confusedly tries to decide whom to go to, the're dead from that last shot.

This isn't about DPS, this isn't about the most kills, this is about winning and not being hurt.

Period.

If I had to effectively solo kolbald assult on elite while my team were acting like morons and killed most of em anyway and only died once as I dropped and was healing from diehard and they ran right over me with the kolbold doing an AOE spell, that says much for taking out about 130 of them myself. The one time I will brag about kill count.

And was it done through plinky? No, camoflauge, invisibility, aimed shots and plenty of running and hidding taking out small groups first.


A good ranged ranger lets somebody else take the aggro and softenn them up a bit. Then, they can manyshot and snipershot them into death. A smarter ranger also knows how to outspeed the enemy that tracks you down for in party kiting (for casters, or other ranged attacks; not asking the too dumb to take out a bow melees to be able to hit the running npc.)

ANd finally, when they just get too close, knowing when to sheathe that bow and go two weapon on their ass and clean up the already badly wounded mob enemy.

Not only do I rarely die on these missions (I did deleras on all difficulties 1-2 levels personally lower than needed) I am rarely hurt either. When I am, I take healing from my stash or use the party's if it can be afforded (as they patch up those barbarian/tempest rangers.)


The trick is to learn HOW to play a ranged character that COMPLEMENTS the melee fighter, not tries to outdo it. The name of the game is to win, not count the bodies per player. I can do that very well.

ANd if in deep dung solo with monsters all around, go invisible, hide and hope my party and I reunite soon.

Stupidity and skill are two different things.

Oh, and adding a level of rogue when I clean up the messes the others failed to be ready for (like those fighters running the elite traps and who has to get their stone to the box on the other end?)


So, look at your enhancements and see rangers get a LOT of love.

If you don't believe me, ask the Paladin right now.

(Pity stupid playing makes many of these opinions and more people don't use tactics over zerging/smacking)

like when we open up manyshot with a w/p bow, killing everything and then the melees complain?

or like when me and 2 other rangers kill harry after the clerics die, taking the melees with them?

complement is one thing, but too many people assume complement = support role

[Puke]

like when we open up manyshot with a w/p bow, killing everything and then the melees complain?

or like when me and 2 other rangers kill harry after the clerics die, taking the melees with them?

complement is one thing, but too many people assume complement = support role

Aranticus, I used to be in your guild and you know all I play are Rangers. Banditt-Riedra, Pukindog, Burpingdog, Snarlingdog and Barkingdog all Rangers you probably saw though I had/have more. Your examples can be true but are going to be few and far between. I'll put up TWF w/p Rapiers against that bow even with Manyshot any day.

Three well-played Rangers can do well. The Cleric makes four and I'm guessing the caster makes five and so you probably had just one melee in your example. Three melees will do better than three archers.

Some of you obviously think you are studs with a bow. It's just simply too slow and gimped. And trust me, I have tried to make it work for two-years.

Why are you trading your w/p shortbow? I'm guessing because it only crits on a 19-20..too little for the puncturing to be effective regularly coupled with the archer's slow rate of fire.

[RobbinB]

If I am kitting something that needs to be dead like NOW then form up a quick 3 man wall and let me run the mob into you.

If I had a dollar for everytime I was circle kiting something on one of my ranged guys (without taking any damage mind you) and the fighters were chasing after the mob, cursing at me to stop moving.....Seriously, fighters and barbs typically have an int of 8, I think the idea of forming a shield wall and letting you go through it to hang up the mob is simply WAY above their heads.

Keep saying it though, they might catch on in a few years or so :)

[Aranticus]

Aranticus, I used to be in your guild and you know all I play are Rangers. Banditt-Riedra, Pukindog, Burpingdog, Snarlingdog and Barkingdog all Rangers you probably saw though I had/have more. Your examples can be true but are going to be few and far between. I'll put up TWF w/p Rapiers against that bow even with Manyshot any day.

Three well-played Rangers can do well. The Cleric makes four and I'm guessing the caster makes five and so you probably had just one melee in your example. Three melees will do better than three archers.

Some of you obviously think you are studs with a bow. It's just simply too slow and gimped. And trust me, I have tried to make it work for two-years.

Why are you trading your w/p shortbow? I'm guessing because it only crits on a 19-20..too little for the puncturing to be effective regularly coupled with the archer's slow rate of fire.

i think you misunderstood me. rangers are swell, you builds and your playstyle are swell. sure a melee can be more effective but requires alot of support. i'm sure your rangers solo alot of stuff. i know i do and frequently solo dq stuff (now harder to do dq2 and its more expensive). there is nothing (cept casters) that can touch a ranged ranger.

the problem is many players expect rangers to perform a support role, but a ranger can do more than support. when the melees are facing a huge number of mobs, the ranger can always "save" the day by drawing 1/2 the agro away, killing them slowly, letting the melees kill off their opponents w/o much fuss. however, the melees will not see that as after they kill off their mobs, they'll then scream as you to stop kiting the mob so they can kill it.

i do agree with your assessment that more can be done with the ranged feats (ie improving rof, making manyshot a stance) so that they can be "up there" in terms of dps. i've done shrouds that are both melee based and those that are ranged ranger heavy. while it may be a flawed comparison, nonetheless it shows the potential of ranged combat. both groups are able to take harry down just as easy, but the one that is ranged heavy tend to use less resources. so what is all these discussion all about? its about how hard rangers are to play compared to a melee whos sole purpose is to hack, slash, kill. a poor player in a melee skin can often go undetected but a bad player in ranger mode stands out like a sore thumb

why am i trading my w/p shortbow? because i used to have 4? i'm using a +2 w/p longbow on ala, gave a +1 w/p longbow to a guildie, sold 1 w/p shortbow. it being in the trade does not mean anything. i'm trading 10 +2 tomes as well, does that mean they are useless too?

[Treerat]

Ok so yesterday ran a quick offering for flagging and one of the peeps I was running with pulled the Spectral Gloves. These are very nice gloves but I had a question why does the ghost touch effect only work with melee. This is a continuing trend of melee only enhancements to armor and items. Take note Breastplate of Destruction, Crippling Chain only work with melee.

Are we afraid of making a ranged character to powerfull, from what I can tell its the melee that needs to be scaled back, nobody makes ranged rangers anymore because they can be more effective with tempest builds and twf builds.

Please show some ranged love.

Because there hasn't been an MMO yet where the developers actually had enough working brain cells to give monsters the ability to intelligently react to ranged attacks. Something like "if damage-taken >= X and range =/= melee, perform Y action range " is apparently beyond the capabilities of their coders. Ironic because every first-year robotics engineer I knew in college was required to use that sort of conditional logic.

Until they figure that concept out, they're too scared that encounters will become "easy" since we would have a "high damage class with less risk than melee." One thing I will give Blizzard; they at least tried to consider non-caster ranged combat in their boss fights. I'm sure now that Turbine just had someone throw in whatever sounded like it approximated the PnP monster abilities and then buffed up the monsters stats until it seemed worthy of being a boss fight. I actually miss fighting the Molten Bore bosses - could actually do something instead of this "stand around while the heal-sink barbs melee the boss to death."

[GlassCannon]

I have a Tempest.

I have built and capped 4 Ranged Rangers.

I prefer the DPS of the Tempest.


This should ring loud and clear to the Dev Team.

[Milolyen]

Aranticus, I used to be in your guild and you know all I play are Rangers. Banditt-Riedra, Pukindog, Burpingdog, Snarlingdog and Barkingdog all Rangers you probably saw though I had/have more. Your examples can be true but are going to be few and far between. I'll put up TWF w/p Rapiers against that bow even with Manyshot any day.

Three well-played Rangers can do well. The Cleric makes four and I'm guessing the caster makes five and so you probably had just one melee in your example. Three melees will do better than three archers.

Some of you obviously think you are studs with a bow. It's just simply too slow and gimped. And trust me, I have tried to make it work for two-years.

Why are you trading your w/p shortbow? I'm guessing because it only crits on a 19-20..too little for the puncturing to be effective regularly coupled with the archer's slow rate of fire.

First ... 1 well played ranged ranger doesn't NEED a cleric muchless 3 well played rangers but I bet your melee focused tempest does. Then just because YOU could not get it to work does not mean others can't. While yes it is slower than melee it is by far not gimped with the addition of improved precise shot. Pick a quest and I will wager my ranged base ranger will get farther faster and with less heals than your tempest. And that IS the point of dps correct? To get farther into a quest faster?

Milolyen

[TehSilence]

So my Ranger is only level 12, and I use ranged most of the time to paralyze, disrupt, etc. I pull out the dual rapiers to do more DPS, and I can't really see any argument against that fact -- I mean, I'm critting 30% of the time with a faster attack rate using the rapiers vs. 10% of the time with the bows. I hold my own with the kill count vs. the rest of the party.

The problem for me is that if I wade into a melee fight, my health bar goes down faster than the gas gauge on a motorhome. A standard mob with the CR of my level may only hit me three or four times to my hitting them 10 to 12, but it's always a race to see who kills who first.

My question for all you melee vets is, how do you keep from dying doing so much melee? Do you not get any aggro when you melee? Do you somehow have comparable HPs to a fighter-class? Is your AC really high? Do you wear light, medium, or heavy armor?

-Silence

[Turial]

My question for all you melee vets is, how do you keep from dying doing so much melee? Do you not get any aggro when you melee? Do you somehow have comparable HPs to a fighter-class? Is your AC really high? Do you wear light, medium, or heavy armor?

-Silence

I call it displacement tanking. My ranger has 240 hp and sits at 43 to 60 ac depending on buffs and items that I am wearing at any point in time. I wear the white dragon robe and have a dex of 28. What I do know is that my AC can be higher then the average fighter if I throw up a shield (the metal kind, not the spell).

When I choose to melee a mob I rarely stand still. I am constantly circling the target and changing positions. In this game the mob must contact you to hit you (done through relative polygon locations rather then strict visual cues) and this works to the players advantage. Large mobs such as trolls ogres and giants have a hard time following targets that move to their right (meaning you circle around them to your left) while smaller mobs, most humanoids and some animals, have a hard time tracking things that move to their left and over them (meaning you circle around them to your right or jump over the mobs left shoulder).

It can also help to stand inside another player and slightly behind an imaginary line that runs between their front and back (effectively cutting them in half). When the mob swings they sometimes hit the player infront of you rather then you...even if you have aggro.

[Puke]

i think you misunderstood me. rangers are swell, you builds and your playstyle are swell. sure a melee can be more effective but requires alot of support. i'm sure your rangers solo alot of stuff. i know i do and frequently solo dq stuff (now harder to do dq2 and its more expensive). there is nothing (cept casters) that can touch a ranged ranger.

the problem is many players expect rangers to perform a support role, but a ranger can do more than support. when the melees are facing a huge number of mobs, the ranger can always "save" the day by drawing 1/2 the agro away, killing them slowly, letting the melees kill off their opponents w/o much fuss. however, the melees will not see that as after they kill off their mobs, they'll then scream as you to stop kiting the mob so they can kill it.

i do agree with your assessment that more can be done with the ranged feats (ie improving rof, making manyshot a stance) so that they can be "up there" in terms of dps. i've done shrouds that are both melee based and those that are ranged ranger heavy. while it may be a flawed comparison, nonetheless it shows the potential of ranged combat. both groups are able to take harry down just as easy, but the one that is ranged heavy tend to use less resources. so what is all these discussion all about? its about how hard rangers are to play compared to a melee whos sole purpose is to hack, slash, kill. a poor player in a melee skin can often go undetected but a bad player in ranger mode stands out like a sore thumb

why am i trading my w/p shortbow? because i used to have 4? i'm using a +2 w/p longbow on ala, gave a +1 w/p longbow to a guildie, sold 1 w/p shortbow. it being in the trade does not mean anything. i'm trading 10 +2 tomes as well, does that mean they are useless too?

I think I may have misunderstood you then.

I was actually never able to solo the DQ. I tried but she would always bug out and become impervious to damage. I've been able to duo her twice though.

This whole topic is really about why there is a lack of ranged named-loot and end-items or basically any of the good stuff for the ranged specialist. During the conversation in this thread the consensus seems to be that the developers are melee-centric and that ranging is best left as a "support role" because you never take damage while ranging and all the good items should go towards melee. I think that's a shame if people really feel that the archer is not due any fun loot.

Anyhow, I think they are kind of right. Ranged-fighting is pretty much viewed as a support role and for very good reason. Over the course of an adventure ranging is far from on-par with melee. The yardstick for success in most groups is definitely how quickly and how many monsters you can kill. Since I'm very pro-Ranger I'm fine with having a ranged specialist in my group but I am very, very nervous if I get two. I'm not nervous with two melees in their place. And thus why people consider the archer (Ranger) as an after-thought to the group and who will provide only a support role. I see that, and I agree with that viewpoint. Of course, there will be some exceptions but they are few and far between. I think the general consensus has some merit and ranged fighting lacks severely and is something you really don't desire in a group.

Even on my character, archery is support to his TWF style of fighting. When the stars are aligned and everything falls into place, archery can be quite potent but it's quite rare and TWF is the better choice to assist the group when viewed over the entire course of an adventure. Sometimes I'm not concerned about kill-counts and I will pull out the bow because it is different and I find it fun. That's very rare though. TWF is superior and I like doing what I'm best at. On a side-note, I can even remember being dropped from a Shroud run because, well, the leader stated "my mate tells me you are a bow Ranger..bye." Dropped me before I could reply. And the funny thing is, I'm against bow-fighting for the most part because it is so much weaker than TWF in the party dynamic.

Back on point, the originator of this thread had issue that some new wraps worked only for melee and not for ranging. I just looted some armor from The Hound last night that lets you Destruct any monster you hit with a melee weapon but it does not do so for ranging. Now why couldn't this be attributed to Ranging too? Why on Earth is this only melee applicable? This is basically the same song-and-dance throughout my two-years in DDO trying to find a way to make an archer a strong and viable party member. Archers are an after-thought, at best. In the group dynamic, the archer is someone you can easily replace with just about any other type of character.

As for the shortbow, I didn't realize you had so many. Though I am very Ranger-centric and very much a lobbyist for the Ranger, I don't feel it's all that great of a weapon. The crit is the biggest part of that weapon yet at best it's a 19-20 so the effect will be rare and thus it's just not that effective a weapon. The slow rate of fire is little compensated by Manyshot. (I think at one time Haste didn't increase rate-of-fire but I am unsure about that anymore.) And yeah, you can line up a bunch of monsters and shoot them all in a row but most of the time that just makes a bunch of monsters mad at you--more aggro than you can actually effectively handle. Anyway, I thought that it was maybe a sign that you saw that it wasn't that great of a weapon. If I had one, I'd dump it asap.

Anyhow, if you think the archer has enough diverse and impressive loot available throughout the DDO world, that's cool. DDO can't make everyone happy as long as they make enough happy. And some don't think the archer deserves more loot because he's only a support role and doesn't take damage and others feel that isn't accurate.

[Puke]

So my Ranger is only level 12, and I use ranged most of the time to paralyze, disrupt, etc. I pull out the dual rapiers to do more DPS, and I can't really see any argument against that fact -- I mean, I'm critting 30% of the time with a faster attack rate using the rapiers vs. 10% of the time with the bows. I hold my own with the kill count vs. the rest of the party.

The problem for me is that if I wade into a melee fight, my health bar goes down faster than the gas gauge on a motorhome. A standard mob with the CR of my level may only hit me three or four times to my hitting them 10 to 12, but it's always a race to see who kills who first.

My question for all you melee vets is, how do you keep from dying doing so much melee? Do you not get any aggro when you melee? Do you somehow have comparable HPs to a fighter-class? Is your AC really high? Do you wear light, medium, or heavy armor?

-Silence

Trial and error will show you what works best for you.

My Rangers vary in Hit Points. My favorite, the Tempest, has about 288 Hit Points I think it is. His Armor Class was about a 40 in robes and Barkskin but that has since dropped by about 4 to a 36 since I looted some new armor from The Hound and am trying that out. This is because my +6 Armor Bracers won't work with armor and I lose my +11 Dex Bonus down to about a +5 so I net less Armor Class now (but I gain a +4 to hit on everything I hit.)

One of the best things you can do is pair up with that 500 Hit Point Dwarf Fighter and hit whatever he hits *after* he hits it. Basically, try not to gain aggro on yourself. But for the most part, since it seems that Armor Class has to be really high to really protect you well, you just have to be sure you can attack at a fast rate and take the monster down very fast. Dead monsters can't attack (though parlyzed ones often still attack LOL.)

I too, with my Tempest, tend to run around and attack from various positions. It's viable for the Tempest because he spent feats in Dodge, Mobility and Spring Attack.

[Aranticus]

Anyhow, if you think the archer has enough diverse and impressive loot available throughout the DDO world, that's cool. DDO can't make everyone happy as long as they make enough happy. And some don't think the archer deserves more loot because he's only a support role and doesn't take damage and others feel that isn't accurate.

there are good loot for rangers but only 1 problem. they are in abbot :mad:

i think the acher need more loot and is glad with the introduction of quivers. rangers can easily be fixed and instantly be transformed to a main rather than support role...... make manyshot a stance rather than a boost

[Torilin]

Back on point, the originator of this thread had issue that some new wraps worked only for melee and not for ranging. I just looted some armor from The Hound last night that lets you Destruct any monster you hit with a melee weapon but it does not do so for ranging. Now why couldn't this be attributed to Ranging too? Why on Earth is this only melee applicable? This is basically the same song-and-dance throughout my two-years in DDO trying to find a way to make an archer a strong and viable party member. Archers are an after-thought, at best. In the group dynamic, the archer is someone you can easily replace with just about any other type of character.



thank you for sticking on point, this is not weather or not ranged rangers are gimped or not, its that specialty loot only applies to melee, what is the point. For instance Breastplate of destruction, why is the energy transfered to a melee weapon but not to a ranged weapon, they are both held in the hand. Essentially the energy is transfered to a melee weapon because it is an extension of the wielder, why is this same energy not transfered to a bow which is also an extension of the wielder.

Im curious because I do not have the full set yet but Tharn's Wrath also states that it gives the wearer of both items (goggles and bracers) ghost touch does this also only apply to melee? can anyone confirm this? IF it does only apply to melee then the question is WHY?

[Aranticus]

thank you for sticking on point, this is not weather or not ranged rangers are gimped or not, its that specialty loot only applies to melee, what is the point. For instance Breastplate of destruction, why is the energy transfered to a melee weapon but not to a ranged weapon, they are both held in the hand. Essentially the energy is transfered to a melee weapon because it is an extension of the wielder, why is this same energy not transfered to a bow which is also an extension of the wielder.

Im curious because I do not have the full set yet but Tharn's Wrath also states that it gives the wearer of both items (goggles and bracers) ghost touch does this also only apply to melee? can anyone confirm this? IF it does only apply to melee then the question is WHY?

theres no way range and melee can be balanced. on the flip side, the melees will now ask why when using a flaming arrow with a frost bow deals both cold and fire damage.

[Turial]

Yes there is. Many MMO's have balance between ranged attack forms and melee. Balancing the two is so much easier then trying to balance physical combat with magic. The thing is turbine just doesnt want to try it or has left it so low on the priority scale that its not going to happen.

As Far as flaming arrows in a frost bow....thats something that came over from pnp. It has always worked and shouldnt change. Melee gets the equalavent in tactical and some damage mods on weapons. i.e. a seeker 10 weapon in your off hand applies its bonus to both weapons, same with backstabbing, shatter, tripping, tendon slice, etc.


theres no way range and melee can be balanced. on the flip side, the melees will now ask why when using a flaming arrow with a frost bow deals both cold and fire damage.

[Torilin]

Im curious because I do not have the full set yet but Tharn's Wrath also states that it gives the wearer of both items (goggles and bracers) ghost touch does this also only apply to melee? can anyone confirm this? IF it does only apply to melee then the question is WHY?

Can anyone confirm if this set works for ranged as well as melee?