Trying a AC Tank

[dragnmoon]

I have decided to make a AC tank, can anyone be kind enough to point me out to some non-multiclassing AC Tanks so I could work on variation thereof?

[wolfy42]

Pure AC tankage has serious problems...but for now the highest non-multiclass AC is through a monk.

Go to the monk forum and you'll see a bunch of them broken down already.

You can get better multiclassing......but for AC alone monks are the current winners.

Depending just on AC though is not a good idea.

[Guildmaster_Kadish]

Depending just on AC though is not a good idea.

Oh? If yer a monk, chances are you'll have evasion and good saves as well.

[Blazer]

I have decided to make a AC tank, can anyone be kind enough to point me out to some non-multiclassing AC Tanks so I could work on variation thereof?

Check the fighter forums for Riot's build. Lvl 16 pure fighter (28 point even). If you can stomach a slight multiclass, check the fighter forums for Borror0's build (2 lvl pally splash). I'd recommend Tanka's build but he's tri-classed, so I can't think you'd want that.

[dragnmoon]

Yeah... should have mentioned... No Monks....

And sorry...not going Multiclassed

thanks for pointing out the fighter.

[tihocan]

Dwarven fighter is what you want then.

[Aspenor]

Dwarven fighter

Aim for mid 20s end-game dex, meaning you'll want at least a base of 15.

[Averroes]

Yeah... should have mentioned... No Monks....

And sorry...not going Multiclassed

thanks for pointing out the fighter.

Oh noes... Not another dorf fighter with 80000 hitpoints and a will save of 5.

Neglect saves and you're a sponge not a tank... :)

[dragnmoon]

Dwarven fighter

Aim for mid 20s end-game dex, meaning you'll want at least a base of 15.

So a Dwarf Fighter can do better then say a Dwarf Paladin?

[Thrudh]

So a Dwarf Fighter can do better then say a Dwarf Paladin?

Fighters get Armor Mastery, Paladins get Aura

Fighters standing next to Paladins get both their Armor Mastery, plus their buddy's Aura

Paladins standing next to Fighters get only their Aura

You really should look at multi-class...

12/4 Paladin/Fighter could get you a good Aura AND two ranks of Armor Mastery, or 14/2 Fighter/Paladin... All kinds of interesting Paladin/Fighter tank builds.

[Turial]

So a Dwarf Fighter can do better then say a Dwarf Paladin?

Yes because dwarven and fighters armor mastery enhancements stack, and one is tied to the fighter class, where as you can get the paladin bulwark effect from a friendly paladin but that same paladin wouldnt get the benafit from fighters armor mastery without a big dip into fighter levels.

[Averroes]

So a Dwarf Fighter can do better then say a Dwarf Paladin?

They can both hit the same AC, given the same gear, although the fighter's will be higher when the pally stands next to him.

A full pally AC build is worthless -- without intimidate as a class skill, you can't keep agro. But splash 1 level of fighter or rogue to open it up and you've got something...


The fighter with 2+ pally levels gains as much as +8 to all saves at the cost of 1 fighter feat and stat points in charisma.

Riott's build was fine in mod1, but trying to make a defensive build as a fighter or pally without multiclassing at this point is just asking to be gimped.

[darthmaul121783]

with the right equipment you can get Dwarven fighter to 28 dex and still be wareing mith full plate stanfing ac is 45 to 50

my build used a lot of toughness feets to get over 400hp and a to-hit that start between 30 to 35 and goes up from their to 45-50

so all in all you can get to the 50's maybe 55-60 with out multiclassing

Dwarven fighter get: Fighter Armor Mastery & Dwarven Armor Mastery. that do stack

also Dwarven & Fighter toughness do stake as well

so good luck

[dragnmoon]

Sorry...just have a *Thing* Against Multi-Classing.... It is deeply ingrained and I can not fight it..:D

[rimble]

Yes because dwarven and fighters armor mastery enhancements stack, and one is tied to the fighter class, where as you can get the paladin bulwark effect from a friendly paladin but that same paladin wouldnt get the benafit from fighters armor mastery without a big dip into fighter levels.

Or provide your own Aura (so you'll always have it) and get Daggertooth's Belt to negate the need for those Fighter levels. Plus, people can argue about Fighters and Paladins sucking, but at least Paladins get more stupid toys...some spells, LoH, Smites...Fighter is too bland...

[Borror0]

Sorry...just have a *Thing* Against Multi-Classing.... It is deeply ingrained and I can not fight it..:D

Problem is, both fighters and paladins have issues that make them too weak if pure.

[Aspenor]

Since my dwarf has no charisma, I cannot benefit much from a pally level, so I'm staying pure fighter. I went 15 dex and currently (with all the top end armor etc mind you) I self buff to 55. With some dedicated shroud and titan farming I could eventually get it to 65 standing self-buffed.

Pally levels are useful for self sufficiency though.

[dragnmoon]

Problem is, both fighters and paladins have issues that make them too weak if pure.

Hey leave your Paladin Issues out of my Threads!!!!! ;):D

[Blazer]

Riott's build was fine in mod1, but trying to make a defensive build as a fighter or pally without multiclassing at this point is just asking to be gimped.

"Gimped" (ugh, hate that word) is a function of the player more than the build. Riot does as well in today's content as he did back in pre-Mod 1.

[Borror0]

"Gimped" (ugh, hate that word) is a function of the player more than the build.

Agreed, Riot's build is weaker than it used to, but it's clearly not gimped. I hate that word too.

[Averroes]

"Gimped" (ugh, hate that word) is a function of the player more than the build. Riot does as well in today's content as he did back in pre-Mod 1.

Absolutely it is, and certainly he does. But he's had 2 years to gather raid loot and tomes...

I don't apply that word very often, but a build that takes 16 fighter levels is giving up too much to be anything else. There's nothing new past fighter 12 except two bonus feats, and even taking all of the save feats doesn't shore up your saves like 2 pally levels and even 12 base charisma along with an item. Armor and tower mastery 3 are at fighter 11, aren't they? And greater weapon spec at fighter 12. That's it...


But back to the point of the thread, I think if you're not going to multiclass you should go pally or ranger. Even with half ranks in intimidate you can probably get it high enough to be reasonably useful as a pally... And as a ranger, if your gear is good enough, you can still kill things quickly while maintaining a high ac. Even if you can't kill things, you can cast barkskin, and everyone loves a good barkskin. ;P

[Borror0]

You can cast barkskin, and everyone loves a good barkskin. ;P

I have always wondered why rangers barskin:

themselves when they have 30 AC.
11 AC sorcerers.
11 AC wizards.
9 AC barbarians.
the cleric with a scepter in each hand.

[ShadowFox1978]

I have always wondered why rangers barskin:

themselves when they have 30 AC.
11 AC sorcerers.
11 AC wizards.
9 AC barbarians.
the cleric with a scepter in each hand.



I bark myself because it is the difference between low 40's and hogh 40's. I give it to anyone holding a sheild and anyone who asks.

[baddax]

Not sure why you would want to limit yourself to a single class/ high AC gimp. AC is highly overated and so is staying pure class. In todays game of DDO is about 2 things IMO 1) flexibility 2) self suffuency. By making yourself single dimesnional you are becomoing a highly limited party drain. So i thnk the best question is how do i get as high an AC as possible and still be effective in combat and have enough saves/hp to survive. You can have a 100 AC but one well placed disintegrate with low save and you are DEAD. I think you will be very unsatisfied with the end result of this single minded unidemensioanl approach to DDO.

[Hadrian]

If you look at the end result with all desired items aquired, the build works out well enough. Every aspect can hit some minimum standard required to make your tank solid, except that you won't have evasion, of course.

The problem is dealing with the fact that you're shy of just about every one of those standard levels until you do get a long list of raid items or rare drops.

If you're in an active rading guild that can get you the gear you want in a couple of months, and you insist on going this way, Riot's build will do a good job.

[Dexxaan]

If you are trying to:

a) Hit 68 AC (Undispellable - Unbuffed - Non-Boosted) [74 AC Vs Giants]
b) Have 465 HP´s
c) Hit ANYTHING Hard and Hold Aggro with Power Attack+Cleave and ;
d) Have Insane Saves.
e) Be able to solo say TBF Elite by actually mopping the cavern floors with a Troll Haired Broom. (killing everything...not running.)

And you aren´t:

a) Afraid of putting in some hard work and resources into your Build.
b) Going to whine at having to Multi-Class. (Pure anything...Bleh!.....OK maybe Sorcs & Clerics get a break in this department)

Then check Bruttus in the Paladin Forums.

[Borror0]

Then check Bruttus in the Paladin Forums.

What I don't like about Bruttus is that he doesn't have Intimidate. Calling a character AC tank without Intimidate is calling two slices of bread a sandwich.

[maddmatt70]

Since my dwarf has no charisma, I cannot benefit much from a pally level, so I'm staying pure fighter. I went 15 dex and currently (with all the top end armor etc mind you) I self buff to 55. With some dedicated shroud and titan farming I could eventually get it to 65 standing self-buffed.

Pally levels are useful for self sufficiency though.

How about a couple of monk levels and go with the mithral breastplate. 2 feats, evasion, and +3 to all saves so what is not to like.

[Inspire]

What I don't like about Bruttus is that he doesn't have Intimidate. Calling a character AC tank without Intimidate is calling two slices of bread a sandwich.

Hrmm... Well My Paladin Is A Pure Breed, Which Happens To Be The Title Of His Forum Build Post/Thread.

Now, He Dosent Have Intimidate Either, But He Uses 120% Hate Generation, Which May Not Be The AoE That Intimidate Is(An Makes It Super Powerful) But 120% Hate Generation Is Extremely Useful With A Pure Paladin On A Boss Mob Like Suuly, In Which Case, I Use 1 Smite(Crit Or Not) And Ill Pull Agro Off The Person Who Is Chained/Has Agro.

While Sitting At An Unbuffed Ac Of 59, If Thats What Your Looking For, However He Is Tougher To Play Than My Barbarians/Batman/Rogue Because They All Have Intimidate In The High 30's Or Low 40's Buffed, And My Batman Has A 62Ac Unbuffed,

Its Honestly All In The Way You Play.

[Averroes]

Now, He Dosent Have Intimidate Either, But He Uses 120% Hate Generation, Which May Not Be The AoE That Intimidate Is(An Makes It Super Powerful) But 120% Hate Generation Is Extremely Useful With A Pure Paladin On A Boss Mob Like Suuly, In Which Case, I Use 1 Smite(Crit Or Not) And Ill Pull Agro Off The Person Who Is Chained/Has Agro.


I'd love to see that in action. Too bad you're not on my server.

But perhaps they've now given pallies enough stuff to manage agro without Intimidate. Divine sacrifice is a minute-long clicky with an equal minute-long cooldown, right? And I noticed somewhere you mentioned 11 minutes of it, so it's based on turns? Sad that they limited it like that, as you can't hope to keep it up for all of the Sulo fight unless you're with an exceptionally strong group.

Isn't the warforged version of divine sacrifice just a toggle?

In any case, you've got me thinking... Really have to finish de-mule-ifying my pally and give it a shot -- although I'm more concerned with trying to keep agro while chained than with getting it from someone else who has been, myself. My concern is that your attack is so slow while chained, that even if every attack makes him turn around to go at you, you still might not have achieved a high enough percentage of agro-control.


As I think about it, I also see a more general problem with the magnitude of the hate increase -- +120% isn't going to cut it if you go anything like fully defensive. I suspect that the percentace where this really becomes viable as a substitute for intimidate is more like +300%. But that's neither here nor there, just speculation. You've definitely got me wanting to check it out, anyway.

[Inspire]

Divine sacrifice is a minute-long clicky with an equal minute-long cooldown, right?

You Betcha, Its Called Divine Righteousness For The Record, Divine Sacrafic Is An Attack(Light Damage At The Cost Of 10Hp/1Sp)


And I noticed somewhere you mentioned 11 minutes of it, so it's based on turns?

Right Again!


Sad that they limited it like that, as you can't hope to keep it up for all of the Sulo fight unless you're with an exceptionally strong group.

Its Easy Enough To Manage With Suuly, You Have To Remember You Dont Have To Keep It Going All 11 Min, Break Them Up Suuly Isnt Down For The Whole Fight Anyways I Find 11 Is Enough And I Dont Care To Spend Ap Or A Feat To Get More Of Them, They Dont Take Off CE Which Is Nice.


Isn't the warforged version of divine sacrifice just a toggle?

Ah Warforged, I Wish My Pally Was One... However I Dont Think I Could Get My Ac To 59+, Warforged Get A Toggle Like Effect That Can Increase Their Hate Generation, They Also Get Power Attack Lines, Along With Diving Righteousness Which Is One Mean Toaster...


In any case, you've got me thinking... Really have to finish de-mule-ifying my pally and give it a shot -- although I'm more concerned with trying to keep agro while chained than with getting it from someone else who has been, myself. My concern is that your attack is so slow while chained, that even if every attack makes him turn around to go at you, you still might not have achieved a high enough percentage of agro-control.

This Is True, However His Intimidate Check Is Very High, Id Rather Damage Him And Make Sure Hes On Me, Rather Than Risk Intimidate Failing, In Either Case Its Nice To Have A Backup Tank Ready For Suuly If Your Main Agro Dies, Etc Etc...



As I think about it, I also see a more general problem with the magnitude of the hate increase -- +120% isn't going to cut it if you go anything like fully defensive. I suspect that the percentace where this really becomes viable as a substitute for intimidate is more like +300%. But that's neither here nor there, just speculation. You've definitely got me wanting to check it out, anyway.

I Agree.

Base Agro: 100%(Normal)
Levik's Bracer/Defender: 20%
Divine Righteouness: 100%

Total: Gain 120%

But If Your Lucky Enough To Land A Critical Smite With 120% Addition Melee Threat(My Usual Crit Base Damage Is 500-530), Thats Like Hitting Him For 1200+ Base Damage, Unless Some One Intimidates Him Off You, You Will Have Agro, After 6 Seconds, He Will Return To You, Once Intimidation Breaks.

I Would Like To See, Something Added, Cause Right Now Intimidate Is Much Much Better If Your Skill Is In The Mid 40's, A Pure Paladin Just Cannot Achieve This Without Buffs, And Gear... Mobs Should Want To Kill That Guy Beaming With Justice And A Perfect Smile!

[Averroes]

This Is True, However His Intimidate Check Is Very High, Id Rather Damage Him And Make Sure Hes On Me, Rather Than Risk Intimidate Failing, In Either Case Its Nice To Have A Backup Tank Ready For Suuly If Your Main Agro Dies, Etc Etc...
[...]
But If Your Lucky Enough To Land A Critical Smite With 120% Addition Melee Threat(My Usual Crit Base Damage Is 500-530), Thats Like Hitting Him For 1200+ Base Damage, Unless Some One Intimidates Him Off You, You Will Have Agro, After 6 Seconds, He Will Return To You, Once Intimidation Breaks.

I Would Like To See, Something Added, Cause Right Now Intimidate Is Much Much Better If Your Skill Is In The Mid 40's, A Pure Paladin Just Cannot Achieve This Without Buffs, And Gear... Mobs Should Want To Kill That Guy Beaming With Justice And A Perfect Smile!

Thanks for the responses. Good information.

And yeah, his intimidate check is very high -- 52. Of course, I have a character that made the necessary sacrifices to hit it, so I'm coming from the perspective of someone for whom it can be a 100% agro lock.

I agree that if you land a crit smite you're going to pull agro from anyone. Of course, I'd like it a lot more if a non-crit smite would also pull agro. A 300% increase would do the trick -- it makes that 80-100 damage smite draw more hate than a crit with a two-handed weapon.


So here's my current build-fantasy: 12rogue/6pally warforged with way of the acrobat II (the one that makes you immune to knockdown), enough tumble to maintain 36 in normal gear, max ranks in intimidate, and a docent of defiance. Or perhaps a dex-based dorf, who'd have a higher AC and more hitpoints, but be ugly and smelly... Yeah, more fun as a warforged, even though you give up some AC and 50 hitpoints. And that'd be a lot of hate-generation, with the warforged version, the pally version, and decent sneak attack damage.