Potions!!!! Awesome Change!!!

[bobbryan2]

I know a bunch of people warned the devs against changing the way potions worked, but I for one think they got all the kinks worked out perfectly before giving us the final version.

For one... Barbarians can no longer heal any of those pesky status conditions while raged. This is wonderful news, finally those big brutes who already relied upon clerics to heal their every status effect now HAVE to have another helpful party member remove conditions while they're raging.

For everyone who is jealous, don't worry. While Madstoned rage you can't heal blindness, fear, curse, disease, or even take away status effects.

Fighting a clay golem and he activates your madstone rage on the same hit which gives you cursed wounds? No problem... just run away from him for 2 minutes if you're low on hit points until the rage wears off so you can use your remove curse potion just to be able to potion your life back up.

And the animation times are wonderful! Obviously using funnels on yourself would be harder than simply drinking something. And cooldown timers? Forget about it. It would take time to figure out both why you were even using a funnel in the first place and then putting it away. How much time? Oh about the time it would take to drink 3 regular potions yourself.

So barbarians, give those potions to someone else.... you won't be needing them. Now you're completely dependant on others!

Thanks for listening to our concerns before hand and releasing potions completely different from how everyone was scared they were going to be THREE months ago!!!!

[Borror0]

Thank you Turbine.:D:rolleyes:

[Guildmaster_Kadish]

We're all in your debt. :rolleyes::D

[Muirtach]

On the upside Lesser restore now work while barb raged.

Looks like the new funnel pots need to wait a bit until there are some empty lesser restore pot bottles to transfer them into

[Echoloc]

ummmm.... you are raging.... you shouldn't be doing anything other than killing anything that moves... its what you do...

that is actually fitting that you can't use potions and the like.. you really shouldn't be able to switch equipment while you are raging also.

Just be more selective when you zerk :)

[Bunker]

ummmm.... you are raging.... you shouldn't be doing anything other than killing anything that moves... its what you do...

that is actually fitting that you can't use potions and the like.. you really shouldn't be able to switch equipment while you are raging also.

Just be more selective when you zerk :)

Lets not talk the semantics of Rage in the ddo realm vs. real life vs. pnp. We are talking game ability. If you think that while raged, you should not be able to do anything but attack, then i guess that means you can't drink a healing potion either. aye?

Though I might not agree with the sarcasim of the OP, I do share his disappointment of the change to potions. I think the Developers need to retool potion drinking and convert it back to the original way (single use, self only, potions on thier own timer)

[bobbryan2]

:rolleyes:
ummmm.... you are raging.... you shouldn't be doing anything other than killing anything that moves... its what you do...

that is actually fitting that you can't use potions and the like.. you really shouldn't be able to switch equipment while you are raging also.

Just be more selective when you zerk :)

Yeah... I mean, obviously... you can't drink pots while you're raged. That would be crazy and against the rules. :rolleyes:

And remember kids, the best argument you can possibly use is 'real world arguments'. There's a real world out there, and games aren't fun unless they mimic the real world perfectly.

When real world arguments break down, only then start talking about petty arguments like Game Balance or staying within the rules set forth in D&D. And finally, only if all arguments have failed, do you bring up, "Does this change make the game more fun."

[Bunker]

:rolleyes:

Yeah... I mean, obviously... you can't drink pots while you're raged. That would be crazy and against the rules. :rolleyes:

Bobbryan: Of course you are upset with the change, as am I. I believe the change came about by players requesting that the inablility of there toons to use wands was preventing them from helping players in thier groups. Now I think you and I see that as being just rediculous. So pass along to your fellow players/freinds/plat farmers/ect.... to get this retooled. I think the loudest group gets the most attention so lets get those Devs think of a Hotfix very soon.

/cheers

[Elaril]

I honestly do not see why potions can't be both funnel use, for other members of the party, and traditional potion use for yourself.

I agree that this was an unnecessary change and also agree with Bunker that we should keep making noise about it until it is either reverted or corrected so that potions can be used in both manners.

[bobbryan2]

Bobbryan: Of course you are upset with the change, as am I. I believe the change came about by players requesting that the inablility of there toons to use wands was preventing them from helping players in thier groups. Now I think you and I see that as being just rediculous. So pass along to your fellow players/freinds/plat farmers/ect.... to get this retooled. I think the loudest group gets the most attention so lets get those Devs think of a Hotfix very soon.

/cheers

I don't think anyone would have had a problem with it if they simply let you trade while dead or incapped. People should be able to rummage a dead body to find that rezz scroll.

Making potions work like this wasn't necessarily a bad change... it was just done by cutting every conceivable corner by simply turning them into once a day clickies: slowing the animation, downtime, sharing it with other clickies, and being able to use it while under all the status effects they're supposed to cure.

If they actually made a new category of potion like they should have, it would have worked fine.

[Borror0]

Rage (Ex)
A barbarian can fly into a rage a certain number of times per day. In a rage, a barbarian temporarily gains a +4 bonus to Strength, a +4 bonus to Constitution, and a +2 morale bonus on Will saves, but he takes a -2 penalty to Armor Class. The increase in Constitution increases the barbarian’s hit points by 2 points per level, but these hit points go away at the end of the rage when his Constitution score drops back to normal. (These extra hit points are not lost first the way temporary hit points are.) While raging, a barbarian cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except for Balance, Escape Artist, Intimidate, and Ride), the Concentration skill, or any abilities that require patience or concentration, nor can he cast spells or activate magic items that require a command word, a spell trigger (such as a wand), or spell completion (such as a scroll) to function. He can use any feat he has except Combat Expertise, item creation feats, and metamagic feats. A fit of rage lasts for a number of rounds equal to 3 + the character’s (newly improved) Constitution modifier. A barbarian may prematurely end his rage. At the end of the rage, the barbarian loses the rage modifiers and restrictions and becomes fatigued (-2 penalty to Strength, -2 penalty to Dexterity, can’t charge or run) for the duration of the current encounter (unless he is a 17th-level barbarian, at which point this limitation no longer applies).

A barbarian can fly into a rage only once per encounter. At 1st level he can use his rage ability once per day. At 4th level and every four levels thereafter, he can use it one additional time per day (to a maximum of six times per day at 20th level). Entering a rage takes no time itself, but a barbarian can do it only during his action, not in response to someone else’s action.

Tell me where in that it's against the rules and I'll agree with you that it's agaisnt the rules. /wait

(Even though I'll stil petition to change it because it's a stupid idea that reducesenjoyment from the gameé)

[bobbryan2]

Tell me where in that it's against the rules and I'll agree with you that it's agaisnt the rules. /wait

(Even though I'll stil petition to change it because it's a stupid idea that reducesenjoyment from the gameé)

Ah, but you did not quote from the rules of NATURE!

Uh huh...

[Vizzini]

I'm sorry I can't seem to get into the discussion over the loud and constant Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

[Elaril]

I'm sorry I can't seem to get into the discussion over the loud and constant Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

So, stating that you think others are whining adds what exactly, besides another post, to the discussion?

[bobbryan2]

I'm sorry I can't seem to get into the discussion over the loud and constant Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

Clearly you did not read the first post, for it was a post of praise and good wishes!

You should read it again!

[Vizzini]

Oh I read it, I also read most of everything afterwards.. and then it lost my interest like most posts complaining about changes in the first week of a new mod do.. Don't take it as a personal attack on you, more of just a general I think I should stay away from the forums for the first couple of weeks after a major update kinda way.


Clearly you did not read the first post, for it was a post of praise and good wishes!

You should read it again!

[bobbryan2]

Oh I read it, I also read most of everything afterwards.. and then it lost my interest like most posts complaining about changes in the first week of a new mod do.. Don't take it as a personal attack on you, more of just a general I think I should stay away from the forums for the first couple of weeks after a major update kinda way.

But there was no complaining, only happiness and sunshine.

[Riddikulus]

Tell me where in that it's against the rules and I'll agree with you that it's agaisnt the rules. /wait

(Even though I'll stil petition to change it because it's a stupid idea that reducesenjoyment from the gameé)
OK I'll bite.


While raging, a barbarian cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except for Balance, Escape Artist, Intimidate, and Ride), the Concentration skill, or any abilities that require patience or concentration, nor can he cast spells or activate magic items that require a command word, a spell trigger (such as a wand), or spell completion (such as a scroll) to function.


Activate Magic Item
Many magic items don’t need to be activated. However, certain magic items need to be activated, especially potions, scrolls, wands, rods, and staffs. Activating a magic item is a standard action (unless the item description indicates otherwise).

Spell Completion Items: Activating a spell completion item is the equivalent of casting a spell. It requires concentration and provokes attacks of opportunity. You lose the spell if your concentration is broken, and you can attempt to activate the item while on the defensive, as with casting a spell.

Spell Trigger, Command Word, or Use-Activated Items: Activating any of these kinds of items does not require concentration and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.


Activation: Drinking a potion or applying an oil requires no special skill. The user merely removes the stopper and swallows the potion or smears on the oil. The following rules govern potion and oil use.

Drinking a potion or using an oil on an item of gear is a standard action. The potion or oil takes effect immediately. Using a potion or oil provokes attacks of opportunity. A successful attack (including grappling attacks) against the character forces a Concentration check (as for casting a spell). If the character fails this check, she cannot drink the potion. An enemy may direct an attack of opportunity against the potion or oil container rather than against the character. A successful attack of this sort can destroy the container.

Because using a potion or oil provokes attacks of opportunity they fall under spell completion items which require concentration to use. Barbarians in rage cannot concentrate.

Did I win?

:D

[Vizzini]

LIES and extreme sarcasm detected Dooooo0000oooOOOOOOoooooo00000oooooom!!


But there was no complaining, only happiness and sunshine.

[Borror0]

Did I win?

Should I really reply seriously to this?

[Borror0]

LIES and extreme sarcasm detected Dooooo0000oooOOOOOOoooooo00000oooooom!!

So, you think that forcing players to ask clerics for sraus healing is a good thing?

[Riddikulus]

Should I really reply seriously to this?

Well, yes. I think the quotes speak for themselves.

You are assuming that "spell completion (such as a scroll)" excludes potions while "(such as a scroll)" is simply an example of a spell completion item, which obviously also includes potions. Spell completion items require concentration, therefore a raging barbarian cannot use them.

[bobbryan2]

LIES and extreme sarcasm detected Dooooo0000oooOOOOOOoooooo00000oooooom!!

Your sarcasm detection machine is severely broken. Clearly I am overjoyed at having to ask the cleric to HELAJ MEEEE! in the Wizard King quest....

over
and over
and over
and over
and over

:)

[Vizzini]

Sraus? Sorry that is not a term I'm familiar with.


So, you think that forcing players to ask clerics for sraus healing is a good thing?

[Vizzini]

No more than a gimped rog without UMD, and too broke for potions.


Your sarcasm detection machine is severely broken. Clearly I am overjoyed at having to ask the cleric to HELAJ MEEEE! in the Wizard King quest....

over
and over
and over
and over
and over

:)

[Yagmoth]

Barbarians should be able perfrom actions that are currently a no go while raged in these modified way examples: 1) Drinking Potions: Kargon, the barbarian, whips the remove curse potion out in a haze of anger and slams it against his forhead while screaming obscenities at the kobold shaman. Result = 50% chance to remove curse. 2) Switching equipment: Kargon, the barbarian, madly rips off his gloves of Con+2 to don his gloves of Str +2. Result = 50% chance the Gloves of Con+2 take 1 durability damage. 3) Casting Spells: Kargon, the barbarian, perfroms the incantation of his hat of web in a raged induced clouded mind. Result = 50% spell fails. That is my take.

[Borror0]

Sraus? Sorry that is not a term I'm familiar with.

Status...

[Borror0]

Well, yes. I think the quotes speak for themselves.

You conclude that since something requires concentration provokes an AoO, everything that provokes AoOs requires concentration. Your quotes simply show me that for a barbarian to not be able to use potions, it must requires concentration and provokes attacks of opportunity. However, that potions simply provoke an AoO, but not require concentration.

[bobbryan2]

Well, yes. I think the quotes speak for themselves.

You are assuming that "spell completion (such as a scroll)" excludes potions while "(such as a scroll)" is simply an example of a spell completion item, which obviously also includes potions. Spell completion items require concentration, therefore a raging barbarian cannot use them.

What he means is.


A is a subset of B
C is a subset of B

Therefore, A and C are the same thing.

Make sense now?

[Amabel]

The hotfix will not change potions back.

It will give barbarians a new ability: control cleric.

Henceforth, barbarians will have the ability to control of any cleric in party or within sight by use of a radial menu.

[Alavatar]

You conclude that since something requires concentration provokes an AoO, everything that provokes AoOs requires concentration. Your quotes simply show me that for a barbarian to not be able to use potions, it must requires concentration and provokes attacks of opportunity. However, that potions simply provoke an AoO, but not require concentration.

Borror0 beat me to it.

All acts of concentration provoke attacks of opportunity, but not all attacks of opportunity are provoked by acts of concentration.

For instance, moving outside of a threatened square provokes an attack of opportunity but it does not require concentration. Attempting to disarm without the Improved Disarm feat provokes an attack of opportunity, but does not require concentration. Bull Rushing provokes an attack of opportunity, but does not require concentration.

I can submit more examples if desired.

Edit: And spell completion items are referring to activatable items such as clickies.

[Alavatar]

Barbarians should be able perfrom actions that are currently a no go while raged in these modified way examples: 1) Drinking Potions: Kargon, the barbarian, whips the remove curse potion out in a haze of anger and slams it against his forhead while screaming obscenities at the kobold shaman. Result = 50% chance to remove curse. 2) Switching equipment: Kargon, the barbarian, madly rips off his gloves of Con+2 to don his gloves of Str +2. Result = 50% chance the Gloves of Con+2 take 1 durability damage. 3) Casting Spells: Kargon, the barbarian, perfroms the incantation of his hat of web in a raged induced clouded mind. Result = 50% spell fails. That is my take.

#1 is applicable to oils, which take effect after being applied externally. Potions take effect after being imbibed.

If Kargon shoves the potion bottle in his mouth and eats it, glass and all, then he takes the potion effect (albeit with some damage from eating glass).

[Riddikulus]

Edit: And spell completion items are referring to activatable items such as clickies.
No, spell completion items are things like scrolls.

Actually I did find a SRD entry which contradicts my previous post:


Use-Activated
This type of item simply has to be used in order to activate it. A character has to drink a potion, swing a sword, interpose a shield to deflect a blow in combat, look through a lens, sprinkle dust, wear a ring, or don a hat. Use activation is generally straightforward and self-explanatory.

Many use-activated items are objects that a character wears. Continually functioning items are practically always items that one wears. A few must simply be in the character’s possession (on his person). However, some items made for wearing must still be activated. Although this activation sometimes requires a command word, usually it means mentally willing the activation to happen. The description of an item states whether a command word is needed in such a case.

Unless stated otherwise, activating a use-activated magic item is either a standard action or not an action at all and does not provoke attacks of opportunity, unless the use involves performing an action that provokes an attack of opportunity in itself. If the use of the item takes time before a magical effect occurs, then use activation is a standard action. If the item’s activation is subsumed in its use and takes no extra time use activation is not an action at all.

So potions are definitely use-activated, and therefore require no concentration like a spell completion item.

[Alavatar]

No, spell completion items are things like scrolls.


Well, yes. But potions do not require spell completion. They do not require any sort of activation word, a spell trigger, or incantation completion. Hence, the examples in the Rage section.



Actually I did find a SRD entry which contradicts my previous post:



So potions are definitely use-activated, and therefore require no concentration like a spell completion item.

While potions are use-activated they do not require concentration to use.

Per your own SRD quote:



Activation: Drinking a potion or applying an oil requires no special skill. The user merely removes the stopper and swallows the potion or smears on the oil. The following rules govern potion and oil use.

Drinking a potion or using an oil on an item of gear is a standard action. The potion or oil takes effect immediately. Using a potion or oil provokes attacks of opportunity. A successful attack (including grappling attacks) against the character forces a Concentration check (as for casting a spell). If the character fails this check, she cannot drink the potion. An enemy may direct an attack of opportunity against the potion or oil container rather than against the character. A successful attack of this sort can destroy the container.

No where does it say that potions require concentration to use. It does say that if the user is successfully attacked they must make a concentration check, though. In that event the raging barbarian should automatically fail since they can't use the concentration skill while raged.

[anastasius]

Your sarcasm detection machine is severely broken. Clearly I am overjoyed at having to ask the cleric to HELAJ MEEEE! in the Wizard King quest....

over
and over
and over
and over
and over

:)

You are sooooo correct Bobbryan!

Oh... welll .... Hmmm... on second thought... it's not like the clerics didn't already babysit the tanks as it was. What, you heal yourself via pots in the middle of hitting the boss as it was? Hmmm how about all those curse circles I used to see in shroud 2 that noone ever seemed to heal for themselves. Or all those poison icons floating above people's heads that noone ever seemed to get rid of on their own. Heck for us clerics there is no change.

Barbs/tanks/heck any toon were always happy to shout out "HEEEEEEEEL MEEEE" over voice chat (without stating who actually needed healing) or "RESTORE!!!" (Without stating who the heck actually needed a restore). The difference is exactly what between then and now? As a cleric I was expected to watch health and icons over other toons rather than the actual quest vs as a cleric I am expected to watch health icons over other toons rather than the actual quest. Umm no difference.

[smatt]

This is easy to fix..... Mobs should just fall over and die whenever a Barb or Sorc approach...

There it's all fixed for them now :rolleyes:

[Borror0]

This is easy to fix..... Mobs should just fall over and die whenever a Barb or Sorc or Borror approach...

There it's all fixed for them now :rolleyes:

I agree.:)

[Thrudh]

Here's an idea... dismiss your barbarian rage if you want to use potions....

Madstone raged? Well, that's the trade-off for using super-rage boots....

The only problem is that potions didn't work like this from the beginning... There needs to be trade-offs for the immense power of raging... And Madstone boots should have a negative side to them as well.

And this is coming from someone with a barbarian with Madstone boots

[bobbryan2]

Here's an idea... dismiss your barbarian rage if you want to use potions....

Madstone raged? Well, that's the trade-off for using super-rage boots....

The only problem is that potions didn't work like this from the beginning... There needs to be trade-offs for the immense power of raging... And Madstone boots should have a negative side to them as well.

And this is coming from someone with a barbarian with Madstone boots

Heh, his only problem was that it didn't work like the rules say it should all along. It should work the way it 'feels' right. That's the truthiness right there.

And I for one agree with him!

[ChildrenofBodom]

Here's an idea... dismiss your barbarian rage if you want to use potions....

Madstone raged? Well, that's the trade-off for using super-rage boots....

The only problem is that potions didn't work like this from the beginning... There needs to be trade-offs for the immense power of raging... And Madstone boots should have a negative side to them as well.

And this is coming from someone with a barbarian with Madstone boots

Worst idea I have heard in a while.

[Falco_Easts]

Here's an idea... dismiss your barbarian rage if you want to use potions....

Madstone raged? Well, that's the trade-off for using super-rage boots....

The only problem is that potions didn't work like this from the beginning... There needs to be trade-offs for the immense power of raging... And Madstone boots should have a negative side to them as well.

And this is coming from someone with a barbarian with Madstone boots

Well said

[Borror0]

Worst idea I have heard in a while.

Me too. Really, the only thing it does is annoy clerics.

[bobbryan2]

Well said

Another fan of truthiness! Let's keep it coming!

[ebt-dnd]

Well, on the positive side, I don't need to carry around the potions I can no longer use while raged. This leaves me more inventory slots for picking up loot AND saves me money on buying potions!

[Bunker]

So I leave the thread to watch the Wings take home the Stanley Cup(GO WINGS!) and like most others, it derails. Come on gamers. This is about potions and the changes that were made in Mod 7. The fact that 1/2 of the useful potions have been changed to mimic wands/clickies is not a good thing. The idea of having a variety of ways to use a spell to cure stat dmg, remove curses, cure fear, ect......is designed to assist ALL types of characters/classes. With the addition of the "funnel", they have turned potions into what they are not intended to provide, and that is self only, single use, all potions on same/separate timer. Lets keep the ball rolling in the proper direction. Keep the word going that this change was not in the best interest of the game and its players.

[GlassCannon]

You know how Delayed Blast Fireball can either sit there or blow up in orbit?

Make that happen with Potions. Self-only or Party Member. This way raged people can drink them, and non-raged can use them as spells(Get the funnel! We're force feeding him a Cure Serious!).

[Lorien_the_First_One]

ummmm.... you are raging.... you shouldn't be doing anything other than killing anything that moves... its what you do...

that is actually fitting that you can't use potions and the like.. you really shouldn't be able to switch equipment while you are raging also.

Just be more selective when you zerk :)

Sorry, you are simply wrong. A barbarian is supposed to be able to take a potion while raged. The only thing they can't do is use "the Concentration skill, or any abilities that require patience or concentration, nor can he cast spells or activate magic items that require a command word, a spell trigger (such as a wand), or spell completion (such as a scroll) to function."

Potions under D&D rules should be allowed. And certaily it makes no sense that we can use a cure pot and a restore pot but not a blindness pot.

[Deragoth]

I found a workaround on my barbarian.

Warning, Exploit Below!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

.
.
.
.
.
.
.
OK, here's how I do it. While on my barbarian, if I notice a status ailment like feeblemind, or a -2 penalty to my 38 Constitution score, I do the following...

I zerg even harder, taking as much damage as I can and (here's the exploit) TRICK the cleric into throwing a heal on me.

Taa daa !

[Riddikulus]

Sorry, you are simply wrong. A barbarian is supposed to be able to take a potion while raged. The only thing they can't do is use "the Concentration skill, or any abilities that require patience or concentration, nor can he cast spells or activate magic items that require a command word, a spell trigger (such as a wand), or spell completion (such as a scroll) to function."

Potions under D&D rules should be allowed. And certaily it makes no sense that we can use a cure pot and a restore pot but not a blindness pot.
Child-resistant corks? That would require patience.

[JayDubya]

So at first, I was unperturbed by the changes to potions, but the research on the D&D rules has convinced me otherwise - I think you're right, BobbyRyan - it's all sunshine and truthiness.

Just to demonstrate that someone can, in fact, change their opinions on these forums :)

[Raiderone]

Worst idea I have heard in a while.

I say deal with it. This is a RPG game after all. How dare the DEV's make you actually roleplay...
I use the madstone boots on my fighter and understand their limitations.

I find it real funny when a Cleric, Ranger or Caster decide to wear them. Good luck with that.
I know right away to take care of myself.

Dismiss your Rage then. I didn't know Barbarians needed heals during combat with all those HP's.
I here Barbarians bragging all the time. Well heal yourself after the rage.

RAGE... RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR.... Oh wait back to reality....now i need to heal myself...NOT.

I think they should add in attacking other toons, if you cannot dismiss your RAGE...the need for blood.
You need to get BLOODED.......or else:eek:

[SneakThief]

If Kargon shoves the potion bottle in his mouth and eats it, glass and all, then he takes the potion effect (albeit with some damage from eating glass).
That would be FINE!!!! I'd take a few pts of dmg to be able to drink my potions on my barb :D


Child-resistant corks? That would require patience.
Not if you just eat the bottle ;)


Heh, his only problem was that it didn't work like the rules say it should all along. It should work the way it 'feels' right. That's the truthiness right there.

And I for one agree with him!
I like your style today ... makes me laugh :D

[bobbryan2]

I say deal with it. This is a RPG game after all. How dare the DEV's make you actually roleplay...
I use the madstone boots on my fighter and understand their limitations.

I find it real funny when a Cleric, Ranger or Caster decide to wear them. Good luck with that.
I know right away to take care of myself.

Dismiss your Rage then. I didn't know Barbarians needed heals during combat with all those HP's.
I here Barbarians bragging all the time. Well heal yourself after the rage.

RAGE... RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR.... Oh wait back to reality....now i need to heal myself...NOT.

I think they should add in attacking other toons, if you cannot dismiss your RAGE...the need for blood.
You need to get BLOODED.......or else:eek:

Yes! Roleplaying! More real world scenarios!

People... take note of this post. Be that segment of the population that 'knows' with their hearts. In your hearts you know that a raging barbarian is seeing too much rage to drink a potion.

Don't let the rules or balance or playability get in the way of what you know in your hearts!

I love the part about adding in the Confusion and Insanity status effects everytime you rage!

[Borror0]

Don't let the rules or balance or playability get in the way of what you know in your hearts!

QFT!!!





...:rolleyes:

[Dexxaan]

:eek:
:rolleyes:

Yeah... I mean, obviously... you can't drink pots while you're raged. That would be crazy and against the rules. :rolleyes:

And remember kids, the best argument you can possibly use is 'real world arguments'. There's a real world out there, and games aren't fun unless they mimic the real world perfectly.

When real world arguments break down, only then start talking about petty arguments like Game Balance or staying within the rules set forth in D&D. And finally, only if all arguments have failed, do you bring up, "Does this change make the game more fun."

Lets See. Real world arguments.... a Barbarian used to Bite his shield (with a splintered tooth and exposed nerve) so that the pain would allow his rage to be such that even a fatal blow was but a fleshwound in his mind..... If you are telling me that this Einstein has the brains to pause, evaluate his current medical condition and determine he´s about to die and needs a chug of healing-ale...then you are right, more so if he has to determine he needs a lesser restore, remove curse, another barkskin, etc...:rolleyes:

Game World Arguments: Barbarians are amazingly powerful as is, there´s gotta be a weakness to all those hitpoints, massive dps, and crit range. Why bother with Fighters, Paladins and such....maybe we should promote a Shamanic-Barbaric healing equivalent toLOH´s for these unarmored typhoons of death and destruction....might as well right...

[Borror0]

Game World Arguments: Barbarians are amazingly powerful as is, there´s gotta be a weakness to all those hitpoints, massive dps, and crit range. Why bother with Fighters, Paladins and such....maybe we should promote a Shamanic-Barbaric healing equivalent toLOH´s for these unarmored typhoons of death and destruction....might as well right...

Want to balance a class? That is not the way to do it!!

[bobbryan2]

:eek:
Game World Arguments: Barbarians are amazingly powerful as is, there´s gotta be a weakness to all those hitpoints, massive dps, and crit range. Why bother with Fighters, Paladins and such....maybe we should promote a Shamanic-Barbaric healing equivalent toLOH´s for these unarmored typhoons of death and destruction....might as well right...

You know what I love best about the "Barbarians are powerful and need something to counteract that" argument? It's impossible to argue against. That'll show those people who use things like logic in their arguments!

You see, you conveniently leave out any notion of the "degree" the penalty would have to be to successfully offset the power of rage. You also did not get tempted into talking about whether or not a given change would truly balance out rage or rather simply annoy Barbarian and cleric players.

So I say, well argued!

The only thing I'd add is that you should have gone for more gusto. Why limit yourself to only stopping barbarians from drinking potions. You should have argued that barbarians are simply lucky they don't drop dead after raging. That right there would be a far better argument.

[Raiderone]

This is easy to fix..... Mobs should just fall over and die whenever a Barb or Sorc approach...

There it's all fixed for them now :rolleyes:

I agree. But it's not from Rage. It's from their SMELL...

[Raiderone]

Yes! Roleplaying! More real world scenarios!

People... take note of this post. Be that segment of the population that 'knows' with their hearts. In your hearts you know that a raging barbarian is seeing too much rage to drink a potion.

Don't let the rules or balance or playability get in the way of what you know in your hearts!

I love the part about adding in the Confusion and Insanity status effects everytime you rage!

You know I just realized what your problem is... Are you ready? It's not the potions. :eek::eek:

It's that you picked an ELF to be your Barbarian instead of a CON based class. Must hurt starting at -6 and paying
all those additional costs to increase. Face it, if you selected a Dwarf or Warforged. You wouldn't be worrying
about using potions during a fight.

Me. I'll wait for Half-Orc before I even think about playing a Barbarian... Then maybe I'll recant and ask for forgiveness.
I did play a Warforged Barbarian for 5 levels... He never needed any heals.

[Borror0]

You know I just realized what your problem is... Are you ready? It's not the potions. :eek::eek:

Personnal attacks? Already out of good arguments?

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Ok....I don't like nerfs.
And I don't have a lot of experiance with Brbs.

But here's my take on it.

I use to think Rage was stupid.....because it gave a minus to AC.....and I never wanted that on my chars.
I also thought there were more drawbacks in PnP, but I can't remember specifics.

I also thought rage was supposed to be a short time "buff" that you would only use in a big fight......one where you might die when the rage wears off, but by then everything should be dead already........take one for the team!

And I also thought....no way rage should stack with rage!

Well.......then along comes DDO, and I slowly get educated on how things work here.

Apparently DDO brbs have been going through entire quests raged almost constantly......and also double or triple raged (more maybe, but I don't know all the stacking types yet...sry)
Plus being able to stop and heal and do all kinds of things, that I always thought they were supposed to be too enraged to be able to do......
I always thought of Rage as Kill, Kill, Kill........ROAR!!!!!!!!

Well......now, we actually have a reason to use tactics when it comes to rage....now there is actually a drawback.

So....the op was curesed while raged and fighting a claygolem..........well.....seems his attacks were lowered to about what they would be unraged......so......in the future, take steps to not be in the same situation when fighting claygolems.

Besides......that big red dot should be a giant clue to your party members to cast remove curse on you.
Doesn't help when soloing (or zerging far ahead.....imagine that, and drawback to zerging alone)

So far......without really understanding all the drawbacks....so forgive me there.......i don't really see a problem with it.

Other than a nerf....and I don't like nerfs......but almost seems like more of a fix than a nerf IMO.

[Dexxaan]

Want to balance a class? That is not the way to do it!!

Sry Borr. Should have included :rolleyes: so you´d catch the Sarcasm in the Shamanic-LOH thing.....


You know what I love best about the "Barbarians are powerful and need something to counteract that" argument? It's impossible to argue against. That'll show those people who use things like logic in their arguments!

Those people.... Nice. By the way since there is no logic applied at all in your Pause-Think-Evaluate-Drink Pot whining request, I´d normally not even get involved, but the audacity of the request itself is much too tempting.

You see, you conveniently leave out any notion of the "degree" the penalty would have to be to successfully offset the power of rage. You also did not get tempted into talking about whether or not a given change would truly balance out rage or rather simply annoy Barbarian and cleric players.

This argument is not about the feelings and concerns of fellow party members, (let´s focus now...if u can) it´s about the class itself and it´s benefits, advantages and the inherent costs that come with it. BTW: I find it hard to swallow that your Barbaric/Anarchic/Anti-Logical heart bleeds for your Cleric and fellow Party members....

The only thing I'd add is that you should have gone for more gusto. Why limit yourself to only stopping barbarians from drinking potions. You should have argued that barbarians are simply lucky they don't drop dead after raging. That right there would be a far better argument.

hmmm. I like that drop dead feature. :D And Logically speaking...that smily face means it´s a joke you shield-bitin, I wanna be more overpowered friend.




I agree. But it's not from Rage. It's from their SMELL...

LMAO Too funny. :D

[Raiderone]

Personnal attacks? Already out of good arguments?

It's not a Personnal Attack. It's part Sarcasm, part truth and part observation, which is very prevalent in this thread.:cool:

[bobbryan2]

Other than a nerf....and I don't like nerfs......but almost seems like more of a fix than a nerf IMO.

There we go.

A fix!

Brilliant!

[Borror0]

I find it hard to swallow that your Barbaric/Anarchic/Anti-Logical heart bleeds for your Cleric and fellow Party members....

You know what I hate about this type of comment? They are based on stereotypes... and stereotyping is cutting a part of the reality, thus, not valid.

[bobbryan2]

Those people.... Nice. By the way since there is no logic applied at all in your Pause-Think-Evaluate-Drink Pot whining request, I´d normally not even get involved, but the audacity of the request itself is much too tempting.

I believe you meant to quote someone else.

I never made a request, much less a whining one.

[Dexxaan]

Well, on the positive side, I don't need to carry around the potions I can no longer use while raged. This leaves me more inventory slots for picking up loot AND saves me money on buying potions!

At least we have found an optimist Barbarian. /emote salute.


You know what I hate about this type of comment? They are based on stereotypes... and stereotyping is cutting a part of the reality, thus, not valid.

Based on all the criteria that has been provided, it´s quite accurate IMO. If it stings...well thats a different matter. Maybe chug a cure light wounds pot? :eek: (also a joke borr...no personal offense implied)

[Raiderone]

I believe you meant to quote someone else.

I never made a request, much less a whining one.

You are a Fine Wine. One with no after taste or headache the next morning.
A Wine with style but very pricy...:D

[Borror0]

Based on all the criteria that has been provided, it´s quite accurate IMO. If it stings...well thats a different matter.

Ever roleplayed in PnP?

[bobbryan2]

At least we have found an optimist Barbarian. /emote salute.



Based on all the criteria that has been provided, it´s quite accurate IMO. If it stings...well thats a different matter. Maybe chug a cure light wounds pot? :eek: (also a joke borr...no personal offense implied)

Be sure not to actually post what criteria you're referring to. It'd be too likely someone would argue your conclusions.

Warning!

[Dexxaan]

Be sure not to actually post what criteria you're referring to. It'd be too likely someone would argue your conclusions.

Warning!


Simple enough considering you´ve signed most of the sources.

Have you tried focusing on the issue and responding to it in a make-sense fashon, instead of resorting to extreme-sarcasms (the "drop dead" feature was funny..) that although entertaining (I love sarcasm when used to prove a point...the essence itself of it btw) don´t do much more than show your frustration at not being able to defend your point.

Signed, One of "Those People". :cool:

[bobbryan2]

Simple enough considering you´ve signed most of the sources.

Have you tried focusing on the issue and responding to it in a make-sense fashon, instead of resorting to extreme-sarcasms (the "drop dead" feature was funny..) that although entertaining (I love sarcasm when used to prove a point...the essence itself of it btw) don´t do much more than show your frustration at not being able to defend your point.

Signed, One of "Those People". :cool:

Truthiness is not about to being able to defend one's point. It's about knowing you're right.

Logic and reason are the last resort of those who would say this is a bad change.

[Dexxaan]

Truthiness is not about to being able to defend one's point. It's about knowing you're right.

Logic and reason are the last resort of those who would say this is a bad change.

This statement resembles, and is widespread among those who display, self-righteousness than anything else really.

Truthiness? More like Toothlessness.

You finally reminded me to not get too intellectually involved in these matters.(you will always find someone that drags you to a level in which inexperience of this new environment will most certainly make you lose.)

Anyway GL2U.

It is said that two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, but I´m not that sure of the first.... - A. Einstein

[bobbryan2]

This statement resembles, and is widespread among those who display, self-righteousness than anything else really.

Truthiness? More like Toothlessness.

You finally reminded me to not get too intellectually involved in these matters.(you will always find someone that drags you to a level in which inexperience of this new environment will most certainly make you lose.)

Anyway GL2U.

It is said that two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, but I´m not that sure of the first.... - A. Einstein

Ah, but self-righteousness isn't anarchic, raging, zergy cleric-hating, now is it?

[Daddy]

barb's were just gettin out of line, killin everything before the poor palidins and fighters could walk in the room. this way the barb gets to go back to his most comfortable position in ddo, a mana sink, and party resource burner. gotta remind the barb's that they shouldn't be soloing anything.

[Grimdiegn]

This is easy to fix..... Mobs should just fall over and die whenever a Barb or Sorc approach...

There it's all fixed for them now :rolleyes:

If you ever ran with my necro sorc out in the vale you would understand how true that is. :D

[Yvonne_Blacksword]

I am to afraid to drink potions!

the stuff in them is sooo scary!

all newts eyes and cat hair and stuff....ewwww!

(was told by a guildie that you can no longer drink a remove fear potion while feared...I could not test this as 3 secons out of the wave crest I was invited to ww....and I was late! thus no twinkie...I miss twinkies! :()

[efreet5]

The New potions can bite my bag! Anyone here use CE? Ya, about that....IDEA: let's give some people a feat that's like power attack only for ac, but gets turned off by every item in the game without being able to reactivate it for 30 seconds! Brilliant! :mad:

Fix CE! Or give me my old **** potions back!

[Auran82]

So a barbarian can'r drink a remove curse potion because he's too angry etc to be able to.

But that 8 str rogue over there is able to use a funnel from 50 feet away and pour a remove curse potion down that same raging barbarians throat?

The interaction with Madstone rage meaning that you pretty much can't use any potion that isn't a healing potion and also the fact it turns off CE (why does this have a 30 second cooldown anyway?) makes the potions more or less useless alot. Why can't the potions just be made so that if you use them on someone else it uses the funnel/cast a spell effect and on yourself you drink them?

[Coldest]

Because using a potion or oil provokes attacks of opportunity they fall under spell completion items which require concentration to use. Barbarians in rage cannot concentrate.

Did I win?

:D

Not even close.

"Drinking a potion or applying an oil requires no special skill." End of story.

However, that was the most blatant use of spin I've seen in a long time, so kudos to ya on that.

[bobbryan2]

So a barbarian can'r drink a remove curse potion because he's too angry etc to be able to.

But that 8 str rogue over there is able to use a funnel from 50 feet away and pour a remove curse potion down that same raging barbarians throat?

The interaction with Madstone rage meaning that you pretty much can't use any potion that isn't a healing potion and also the fact it turns off CE (why does this have a 30 second cooldown anyway?) makes the potions more or less useless alot. Why can't the potions just be made so that if you use them on someone else it uses the funnel/cast a spell effect and on yourself you drink them?

Well, the reasoning here is that a raging barbarian is overpowered but an 8 str rogue is gimped.

You see, it's all about bringing down the power.

[Missing_Minds]

I'm sorry I can't seem to get into the discussion over the loud and constant Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

Sorry, but you are confusing this with the slight change to wall of fire.

[tenga]

ummmm.... you are raging.... you shouldn't be doing anything other than killing anything that moves... its what you do...

that is actually fitting that you can't use potions and the like.. you really shouldn't be able to switch equipment while you are raging also.

Just be more selective when you zerk :)

well if we're going by logic, lets make firewalls hurt your party members, along with blade barriers, fireballs, cloudkill, symbol spells, cone of cold, need i go on? and by your "its what you do" reasoning, lets change the game so clerics are only allowed to heal, no more command and flame strike, forget that, that wouldn't fit their role.

[tenga]

The only thing I'd add is that you should have gone for more gusto. Why limit yourself to only stopping barbarians from drinking potions. You should have argued that barbarians are simply lucky they don't drop dead after raging. That right there would be a far better argument.


ever go out of rage with like 50 hp left :-/

[tenga]

barb's were just gettin out of line, killin everything before the poor palidins and fighters could walk in the room. this way the barb gets to go back to his most comfortable position in ddo, a mana sink, and party resource burner. gotta remind the barb's that they shouldn't be soloing anything.

this mean its time to mention the sorc's soloing nearly all the content? we bringing up the 1500 cone of colds?

[Borror0]

this mean its time to mention the sorc's soloing nearly all the content? we bringing up the 1500 cone of colds?

That's actually an unrepairable flaw without nerfing casters into oblivion. The capacity to kill at distance will always be overpowered.

[Kris_P._Letus]

barb's were just gettin out of line, killin everything before the poor palidins and fighters could walk in the room. this way the barb gets to go back to his most comfortable position in ddo, a mana sink, and party resource burner. gotta remind the barb's that they shouldn't be soloing anything.

i agree. barbs are WAYYYYY over powered. they needed this potion nerf. 'speshally those useless warforged barbs who have spent how many thousands of plat in order to make themselves "self relient" so that the clerics dont feel even more like the wf barb is a mana drain. im with you bobby. i say WOOTZZZ!!!111!1ONEONE!! to the potion nerfs!! maybe now you zerging warforged barbs will behave yourselves and stick with the party, AND not have to 'sploit the barb crit range anymore (WAY over powered anyway, way to fix that exploit without showing a nerf, devs. *HIGH FIVE!!!*) so, what i was getting at, this teaches all of you barbarians out there. spendin all that money on pots/clickys to fix your ailments. may as well delete them now and roll a sorcerer. they are the most un-nerf needing, bestest class out there. word up again on your enlightning post, bobby.

signed

thudul
lvl 15 warforged barbarian.

[Bunker]

Don't forget, the potion change is not only hurting barbarians, but also:

Anyone that uses CE
Drinking pots while infront of beholders
or with tensors active
or basically any time you are unable to use a clickie.

Frankley, Potions should not be used int he same matter as wands. Potions should have potion timers, potion (self only single use)

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Don't forget, the potion change is not only hurting barbarians, but also:

Anyone that uses CE
Drinking pots while infront of beholders
or with tensors active
or basically any time you are unable to use a clickie.

Frankley, Potions should not be used int he same matter as wands. Potions should have potion timers, potion (self only single use)

Those points actually make me want it changed back....more than the brb rage arguments.

[bobbryan2]

Those points actually make me want it changed back....more than the brb rage arguments.

No! Fight the good fight! Champion the cause! Truly potions were overpowered and needed a nerf! Don't bend to their tricksy, manipulative logic.

[Bunker]

No! Fight the good fight! Champion the cause! Truly potions were overpowered and needed a nerf! Don't bend to their tricksy, manipulative logic.


are you being serious or areyou being sarcastic, casue if you are sarcastic, it won't help get potions retooled.

[bobbryan2]

are you being serious or areyou being sarcastic, casue if you are sarcastic, it won't help get potions retooled.

Sure it will.

It's so obviously a bug. Any debate on the matter is largely irrelevant. The only real question is whether or not they'll actually get around to making potions useable while madstone raged.

But I do get a tickle of the sheer number of people who believe changes like this were intentional and not just another example of poorly planned and executed upgrades. There was truly no excuse this time around though. They had already gone through a test run with lesser restore pots, and they STILL hadn't gotten them right before they 'upgraded' the rest of the potions to Vista 64. Not only did they not even attempt to fix the issues still in existence with the lesser restore pots, but they didn't even fix the fixes they DID fix.

The corner-cutting and complete ambivalence at which this was changed just irked me to no small degree. I can understand bugs; I didn't get that bent out of shape when they broke lesser restore potions. But Turbine has a habit of making the same mistake over and over again. Not failing to correct the mistake... but actually just making the same mistake again. Look at raid timer bugs and the three raids prior to these 2 new ones.

The rest of you guys that are trying to say raging barbarians shouldn't be able to drink potions really need to take a step back and think about why you are actually trying to justify obvious game bugs.

If you want a challenge, try arguing why the change to ASF in heavy plate is actually an intended change. That should give you some fun for a few days.

[BillBob]

ummmm.... you are raging.... you shouldn't be doing anything other than killing anything that moves... its what you do...

that is actually fitting that you can't use potions and the like.. you really shouldn't be able to switch equipment while you are raging also.

Just be more selective when you zerk :)

lol

Well, i was running the chains prereq with some lower lvl players (that never did it before) along for the ride. Completely forgetting about the pot change, I talked to the poor NPC with the blinding curse. What commences soon afterward is the writhing and the screaming (oh the screaming) of my poor fellow adventurers being mangled, horribly so, by ogre magi while i sit tight waiting for the madstone to run out after already canceling my rage. (fumbling for the staircase in the dark woot!) Now, i do like to be self sufficient and all my chars carry rest, blind, curs, dis, cure, ele resist/prot pots so i will have to get used to screaming at my fellow party members for some help on my barb from now on ;) "Fix Meh!!" i must now scream while in my zergy barby rage!

oh yeah, i would have asked the cleric but since they took 1 lvl in monk their SP bar is now replaced by a KI bar!!!! (unless this is togglable, it should be fixed to be so) who knows how much SP they had. /sigh


If it is true and I've lost ALL my faculties and cannot drink a certain potion then I want 2 things to happen:

1) Everyone becomes a targetable enemy and I can kill whomever gets in my way!
2) DDO engages some basic A.I. for my character and i can sit back and eat some popcorn whilst my Barb kills anything that comes into my clipping range!!

[dustinash]

What a gross and negligent change. Already clerics are killing at a distance like wizards, wizards are mangling, and sorc's are just plain ballistic. Now that shining pillar of meat, the barbarian is tooled down to uselessness, leaving either non-healer characters fumbling to try and help him (and getting mangled in the process) or causing the cleric to pause in his own auto-killing to cast an "oh if I must." This will reflect in game play as people subtly clicking off the barbarian button when looking for groups. Before this, only I did this. And only if I saw Thudul on line.

This is gross. I gave up melee fighting when I saw how irrelevant it was as I tried to approach things only to have the ol' PK-oops fail- FOD combo executed. I picked up repeating crossbows just so that I could remain relevant. At least the barbarians could actually do some justice to hand to hand....

Useless change. Your average sorc can resurrect, cast heals off of scrolls, insta kill most things at range, and when combined with paladin level have saves that make them nigh invincible and they go and subtly nerf the barbs? I'm sorry, not sure who the crew is who thought this was a good idea but your seriously alienating a good chunk of your player base by creating even further imbalance.

[bobbryan2]

I'll also throw out...

How AWESOME that the change to potions comes at the same time as that ol' Horned Devil raid! That's not EVEN annoying.

[Borror0]

How AWESOME that the change to potions comes at the same time as that ol' Horned Devil raid! That's not EVEN annoying.

We had a bard taking care of the curses...

[bobbryan2]

We had a bard taking care of the curses...

Well yeah...

:)

Can't have the fighters do it themselves, you'd party wipe. :)

[Borror0]

Can't have the fighters do it themselves, you'd party wipe. :)

Actually, we did anyway... those four red named Orthons sure are powerful!:eek:

[Kris_P._Letus]

What a gross and negligent change. Already clerics are killing at a distance like wizards, wizards are mangling, and sorc's are just plain ballistic. Now that shining pillar of meat, the barbarian is tooled down to uselessness, leaving either non-healer characters fumbling to try and help him (and getting mangled in the process) or causing the cleric to pause in his own auto-killing to cast an "oh if I must." This will reflect in game play as people subtly clicking off the barbarian button when looking for groups. Before this, only I did this. And only if I saw Thudul on line.

This is gross. I gave up melee fighting when I saw how irrelevant it was as I tried to approach things only to have the ol' PK-oops fail- FOD combo executed. I picked up repeating crossbows just so that I could remain relevant. At least the barbarians could actually do some justice to hand to hand....

Useless change. Your average sorc can resurrect, cast heals off of scrolls, insta kill most things at range, and when combined with paladin level have saves that make them nigh invincible and they go and subtly nerf the barbs? I'm sorry, not sure who the crew is who thought this was a good idea but your seriously alienating a good chunk of your player base by creating even further imbalance.

bah sylver. yer post is LIES!!! ya gave up on melee cuz yer gimp. ( :P ) and number 2. you cant possibly have started takin barb out of yer lfms when i started playin, cuz from the first time i started gettin "sylverleaf tells you: man, you are so awesome, i so wish i could be like you" over n over more so then plat tells, i started loggin on as anonymous so you wouldnt know that i was on. so come clean with it. its ok. nobody here will judge you. much. :P

[Griphon]

Not sure which side of the fence I come in on...

I sort of originally liked the idea of Rage blocking potion usage. Then I thought: Just -who- is this really negatively effecting.
It causes the Clerics and/or other casters to expend SP on to the Barbarian.. Or to Wand whip them since there are wands readily available.

I =do= think Barbarians need to be balanced.. either by nerfing Critical Rage, or by giving Fighters some serious Love of their own.

BUT I don't think this was a good method of it.. The only people this is causing a problem for are the clerics and healer types.. the 'self fixing' barbarians who thought they could do anything.

[Kris_P._Letus]

.

#1 I =do= think Barbarians need to be balanced.. either by nerfing Critical Rage, or by giving Fighters some serious Love of their own.

#2 The only people this is causing a problem for are the clerics and healer types..



#1. LMMFAO. uh huh. :rolleyes:

#2. the only people being hurt by this is the cleric/healers?? so...screw the raging barbarian. hes overpowered anyway. lets just make it easier for them to die, becouse the cleric/healer is going to get tired of healing/fixing/un-cursing (etc...) becouse im using to much mana on him. make him drink a potion. oh. he cant drink a potion. oh well. not my problem.

its funny....bein here since launch...i remember when the clerics got nerfed...i remember when the palis got nerfed. i remember the fighters getting a nerf. only class i cant seem to remember getting nerfed are the sorcs. i can only imagine the b!thch fest on the forum if the devs came up and said they were nerfing them. and dont even give me that "they took our scrolls away"

[bobbryan2]

#1. LMMFAO. uh huh. :rolleyes:

#2. the only people being hurt by this is the cleric/healers?? so...screw the raging barbarian. hes overpowered anyway. lets just make it easier for them to die, becouse the cleric/healer is going to get tired of healing/fixing/un-cursing (etc...) becouse im using to much mana on him. make him drink a potion. oh. he cant drink a potion. oh well. not my problem.

its funny....bein here since launch...i remember when the clerics got nerfed...i remember when the palis got nerfed. i remember the fighters getting a nerf. only class i cant seem to remember getting nerfed are the sorcs. i can only imagine the b!thch fest on the forum if the devs came up and said they were nerfing them. and dont even give me that "they took our scrolls away"

That's because Sorcs 'were' gimped up until FOD was released.