Manyshot and enhancements.

[Brandiwyne]

So I've read several threads debating on different mechanisms to allow manyshot to be more powerful.

Some like shorter cooldowns, some like longer active times, and some prefer an active stance with to-hit penalties.

As it stands, I don't believe the development team has any changes planned for this feat just yet.

Would adding an enhancement line to extend the active time for manyshot (similar to the extend rage enhancements) be an attractive option provided none of the other ideas were acceptable for game design?

[Larhanya_Theliel]

I would definitely have a high interest in such an idea. I would be happy to spend action points to extend manyshot.

[Turial]

/signed

I would like to see that particular enhancement line tied to taking the feat rather then to the ranger class because it would allow for diversity in some of the many archer types.

[WeiQuinn]

/signed

I would like to see that particular enhancement line tied to taking the feat rather then to the ranger class because it would allow for diversity in some of the many archer types.

I agree with this and to expound upon it further, why can't some of the other enhancements be that way also... for example, if a Fighter wants to take the Spring Attack line and the Two Weapon Fighting line, why should he be excluded from taking the Tempest enhancement?

Don't jump on me about it being a Ranger thing and if you want it, take the six levels of Ranger, because if you look at my SIG, I play Rangers... If they can do it with Arcane Archer (Ranger Arcane & Elven Arcane), they can do it with some of the other enhancements.

Plus, if you take Toughness, that should open up the enhancement line no matter your class!

[dragonoffrost]

I agree with this and to expound upon it further, why can't some of the other enhancements be that way also... for example, if a Fighter wants to take the Spring Attack line and the Two Weapon Fighting line, why should he be excluded from taking the Tempest enhancement?

Don't jump on me about it being a Ranger thing and if you want it, take the six levels of Ranger, because if you look at my SIG, I play Rangers... If they can do it with Arcane Archer (Ranger Arcane & Elven Arcane), they can do it with some of the other enhancements.

Plus, if you take Toughness, that should open up the enhancement line no matter your class!

Arcane archers in PnP do not have to be rangers..... actually they have to be elves with spell abilty.

[WeiQuinn]

Arcane archers in PnP do not have to be rangers..... actually they have to be elves with spell abilty.

I understand how the PnP Arcane Archer works, but unfortunately (fortunately?) its been implemented as a Ranger enhancement along with an Elven enhancement in DDO. My point is, that if you are an Elf, and want Arcane Archer, all you need are 2 (maybe 3) feats to qualify. As a Ranger, all you need are 2 (3 if you don't multi-class) feats to qualify.

Why can't some of the other enhancements be that way? Base them on feats, not just class or race (unless specified eg. Arcane Archers being Elves that have some Arcane casting abilities - I now, PnP rules.... but you get my point).

[Issip]

I would definitely have a high interest in such an idea. I would be happy to spend action points to extend manyshot.

I'd be happy to spend action points on thermal detonators and nuclear armed RPG's, but seeing as how multishot is one of the most powerful abilities in the game I think it would throw things off balance a bit.

[dragonoffrost]

I for one am glad they did it based on ranger or elf and not just rangers. I usually go that route in PnP with my elven bards and am going to build one sometime in DDO. I just have too many characters to devote the time to leveling a bard as many people still don't take bards in their parties unless they want them to be healers.

[Brandiwyne]

I'd be happy to spend action points on thermal detonators and nuclear armed RPG's, but seeing as how multishot is one of the most powerful abilities in the game I think it would throw things off balance a bit.


In my opinion, manyshot has a long way to go before balance becomes an issue.

For instance, compare it to rage in its current form, a class ability that gives inherent bonus to strength, constitution and will saves; now add enhancements that allow this rage to be extended, give increased ability bonuses, will saves, and on top of that increases to the critical threat range of any weapon you happen to be holding.

It's my opinion that allowing players to invest action points in an enhancement tied to this feat would not be unbalancing.

[maddmatt70]

This would benefit my ranged character immensely so yes from a greedy standpoint make manyshot more powerful. Fighter Haste boost for the win..

[Twerpp]

I think melee based rangers should be able to extend more into melee APs, and real rangers should have AP options like extending manyshot.

For example, melee/tempest rangers could take a toughness line, since they actually get hit more often.Or be able to increase crit range or multiplier on favored enemies when two weapon fighting.

Rangers who shoot could have a way of line to extend manyshot, or reduce the cooldown timer or mix the deepwood sniper shots into their manyshots etc etc or have the crit range thing I mentioned above but when using ranged weapons.

Either route would would be extremely powerful obviously and should only be available to highest level rangers and with considerable AP investment. I just dont dig the way DDO granted both styles to rangers when in PnP its one or the other. This would be a way to make a distinction between the two styles.

[Twerpp]

This would benefit my ranged character immensely so yes from a greedy standpoint make manyshot more powerful. Fighter Haste boost for the win..

Fighter haste boost works with bows? I didnt seem to see a difference with rogue haste boost...but I only tried it at lower levels.

[maddmatt70]

I think melee based rangers should be able to extend more into melee APs, and real rangers should have AP options like extending manyshot.

For example, melee/tempest rangers could take a toughness line, since they actually get hit more often.Or be able to increase crit range or multiplier on favored enemies when two weapon fighting.

Rangers who shoot could have a way of line to extend manyshot, or reduce the cooldown timer or mix the deepwood sniper shots into their manyshots etc etc or have the crit range thing I mentioned above but when using ranged weapons.

Either route would would be extremely powerful obviously and should only be available to highest level rangers and with considerable AP investment. I just dont dig the way DDO granted both styles to rangers when in PnP its one or the other. This would be a way to make a distinction between the two styles.

woah.. we were talking about making my character more powerful and now you are talking about making silly rangers more powerful whatever does manyshot have to do with rangers. Last I checked anybody could pick up the feat as long as they met the prerequisites so why make it a ranger enhancement line - if anything give additional feat options as well so others such as fighters can upgrade their manyshot too. It is bad enough that I had to take one level (I took four levels) of ranger for the strength bonus..

[Twerpp]

woah.. we were talking about making my character more powerful and now you are talking about making silly rangers more powerful whatever does manyshot have to do with rangers. Last I checked anybody could pick up the feat as long as they met the prerequisites so why make it a ranger enhancement line - if anything give additional feat options as well so others such as fighters can upgrade their manyshot too. It is bad enough that I had to take one level (I took four levels) of ranger for the strength bonus..

LOL you selfish Dorf! You still didnt answer my question, does fighter haste boost really increase the rate of ranged (specificallly bow) attacks? Im pretty sure rogue haste boost doesnt...

[maddmatt70]

Fighter haste boost works with bows? I didnt seem to see a difference with rogue haste boost...but I only tried it at lower levels.

That is something for you to test out Mr. Twerpp on your fighter then.. I would test it on your rogue again too..

[Twerpp]

That is something for you to test out Mr. Twerpp on your fighter then.. I would test it on your rogue again too..

I used up my sick time and this cant wait til after work. I must know now! That would be insanely overpowered on the most recent mutant I capped. Cant believe I havent tried it once again in the last 14 levels lol.

[Aesop]

I would like the PrEs to all be subject to build not Class restrictions. ie based on Feats Features and Skill Ranks and not on Enhancements... causes more problems and more limitations pidgeonholing classes into certain types of builds to readily.

Aesop

[Borror0]

I would like the PrEs to all be subject to build not Class restrictions. ie based on Feats Features and Skill Ranks and not on Enhancements... causes more problems and more limitations pidgeonholing classes into certain types of builds to readily.

/sign, not like everyone knows my stance on that already:rolleyes:

[Issip]

In my opinion, manyshot has a long way to go before balance becomes an issue.

For instance, compare it to rage in its current form, a class ability that gives inherent bonus to strength, constitution and will saves; now add enhancements that allow this rage to be extended, give increased ability bonuses, will saves, and on top of that increases to the critical threat range of any weapon you happen to be holding.

It's my opinion that allowing players to invest action points in an enhancement tied to this feat would not be unbalancing.

Grab some madstone boots and rage pots, and maybe a divine power and divine favor clickie. Now get yourself a +5 bow with a couple mods, or just an old silver longbow. Click the clickies, take aim at a boss, turn on auto-attack, and read the numbers. I almost forgot Ram's Might - the ranger only self-cast spell that increased damage and str by 2 (size bonus) so +3 to every attack, which can be buffed through the entire quest, I think I prefer it to barbarian rage...

You should be able to hit for 27-30 points of damage per arrow before adding in holy or pure good, so you get about 120 damage per hit + any other adder (holy, etc.) x4, and of course x3 for any crit with a longbow. That isn't overpowered, it's competetive with barbarians raged to the teeth, but not overpowered (except of course that the ranger doesn't ahve to be anywhere near the boss to do this damage while the barbarian needs constant heals to maintain his DPS).

Now take aim at 20 mobs and get those numbers on say 15 of the 20 because that's the best you can line them up. So you then multiply that damage by 15. There is no weapon attack that appraoches this type of damage - only major AoE spells.

Now try the same thing with WoP longbow (these aren't even that rare). You get 4 con damage on each mob for each atack, plus 1d6 for any crits. Nothing, not even sorcerors with improved critting firewalls can drop mobs that fast.

Used properly multishot is the most powerful single ability in the game period. If you can't do enough damage with it then you are not utilizing it very well, and extending it or making it more powerful would make my ranger ridiculous. I know rangers that make my ranger look like a silly fool, so I can only imagine how ridiculous their toons would be if multishot was extended or made even more powerful in some way.

I think the Devs know how powerful a ranger can be if you play it properly so I don't anticipate them extending or altering multishot.

[Brandiwyne]

<snip>
Used properly multishot is the most powerful single ability in the game period. <snip>

I respectfully disagree with this statement.

That said, you and I will have to agree to disagree.

[Twerpp]

I think classes should get something special that other classes cant, and moreso at higher levels. Once you make something tied to the feats people will just metagame whatever feat is most powerful or useful at the moment. I like that classes and races are different. Once everyone can all be exactly the same this game will stop being fun for me.

[Borror0]

I think classes should get something special that other classes cant, and moreso at higher levels.

That's called class feats and enhancements can be based off them. Ever heard of Power Rage IV or Critical Rage II.

[maddmatt70]

I think classes should get something special that other classes cant, and moreso at higher levels. Once you make something tied to the feats people will just metagame whatever feat is most powerful or useful at the moment. I like that classes and races are different. Once everyone can all be exactly the same this game will stop being fun for me.

If you don't have quality feats what is the point of fighters then.

[Issip]

I respectfully disagree with this statement.

That said, you and I will have to agree to disagree.

I certainly support your right to disagree, but out of curiousity, is there some other single ability you feel is more powerful than multishot? Maybe I have overlooked something, but of the toons I have played none has a single ability that is more powerful than multishot (unless maybe we are counting spells, in which case firewall and blade barrier would rank, but my comment was directed at abilities like boosts, rages, etc. not spells). When I exclude spells I can't think of anything...

Issip

[Deaths_ward]

Here's an odd set of Many Shot Lines, that might be nice.

Many Shot Extension I
AP Cost: 1
AP Spent: 12
Requires: Many Shot, Weapon Focus Ranged
Requires one of:
-Improved Critical: Ranged
-Ranger level 6
You fingers are not only nimble enough to grasp and fire many arrows at once, but durable enough to do it for prolonged spans of time. You increase the duration of Many Shot to 30 seconds.

Many Shot Extension II
AP Cost: 2
AP Spent: 28
Requires: Many Shot Extension I
Requires one of:
-Greater Weapon Focus: Ranged
-Ranger Level 9
Long practice has paid off, you can sustain your Many Shot for 40 seconds

Many Shot Expertise I
AP Cost: 2
AP Spent: 16
Requires: Many Shot, Many Shot Extension I
Requires one of:
-Precise Shot
-Ranger Level 7
Your hands move like the wind, drawing and firing arrows with blazing speed. You increase the total number of arrows you can fire per shot by one while using many shot.

Many Shot Expertise II
AP Cost: 4
AP Spent: 32
Requires: Many Shot Expertise I
Requires one of:
-Improved Precise Shot
-Ranger Level 10
Agility and speed, deftly combined in bursts of fury that release a hailstorm of arrows. You increase the total number of arrows you can fire per shot by one (this bonus stacks with Many Shot Expertise I) while using many shot.

Available to Paladins, Rangers, Fighters, and Barbarians.

[Brandiwyne]

Issip:

Specifically, when I read your response, the first two things that popped into my head were:

1) Barbarian critical rage enhancements

2) Stacking firewalls (so yes, I was including spells)

I would vote either of these as more powerful abilities than manyshot.

Again, I don't want to draw this out into an argument; I asked for your feedback, and you gave it. I don't agree with it, but hey, if we all agreed on everything, how boring would that be? :)

[Twerpp]

That's called class feats and enhancements can be based off them. Ever heard of Power Rage IV or Critical Rage II.

LMAO nope never heard of that thanks for setting me straight.

[Borror0]

LMAO nope never heard of that thanks for setting me straight.

My pleasure.:)

[Coldin]

Here's an odd set of Many Shot Lines, that might be nice.

Many Shot Extension I
AP Cost: 1
AP Spent: 12
Requires: Many Shot, Weapon Focus Ranged
Requires one of:
-Improved Critical: Ranged
-Ranger level 6
You fingers are not only nimble enough to grasp and fire many arrows at once, but durable enough to do it for prolonged spans of time. You increase the duration of Many Shot to 30 seconds.

Many Shot Extension II
AP Cost: 2
AP Spent: 28
Requires: Many Shot Extension I
Requires one of:
-Greater Weapon Focus: Ranged
-Ranger Level 9
Long practice has paid off, you can sustain your Many Shot for 40 seconds

Many Shot Expertise I
AP Cost: 2
AP Spent: 16
Requires: Many Shot, Many Shot Extension I
Requires one of:
-Precise Shot
-Ranger Level 7
Your hands move like the wind, drawing and firing arrows with blazing speed. You increase the total number of arrows you can fire per shot by one while using many shot.

Many Shot Expertise II
AP Cost: 4
AP Spent: 32
Requires: Many Shot Expertise I
Requires one of:
-Improved Precise Shot
-Ranger Level 10
Agility and speed, deftly combined in bursts of fury that release a hailstorm of arrows. You increase the total number of arrows you can fire per shot by one (this bonus stacks with Many Shot Expertise I) while using many shot.

Available to Paladins, Rangers, Fighters, and Barbarians.

Why make it only available to Paladins, Fighters, Rangers, and Barbarians?

Shouldn't every class that takes the feats to use Manyshot be able to advance that skill with enhancements?

Totally agree with Aesop that enhancements should be based on Feats and Abilities, and not just because a player has so many levels of a certain class.

[Borror0]

Shouldn't every class that takes the feats to use Manyshot be able to advance that skill with enhancements?

Yes, same for Power Attack and Toughness. (But Toughness should be simply destroyed instead. Give it to everyone in a patch... then remove it in an hotfix.:D)

[Delacroix21]

I personally agree with it being a stance. No argument could ever be made that ranged dps even comes close to meele, not by a long shot.


My DEX ranger was built to be a bow user, but has since been turned tempest to keep him from being totally scrapped. I whip out my bow to manyshot the pit and other bosses, and thats about it.


I should also point out to the above enhancements that extending manyshot will not fix archery in DDO, just help for when you use it. Archery needs a wholesale fix and soon. =(

[frugal_gourmet]

I personally agree with it being a stance. No argument could ever be made that ranged dps even comes close to meele, not by a long shot.

Although saying manyshot is *more powerful* is not equivalent to saying that it produces higher dps. Obviously, if long range attacks generated damage close to melee attacks, long range attacks would be singificantly overpowered. There is much less risk involved in long range combat and it should never equal melee damage.

[Deaths_ward]

Why make it only available to Paladins, Fighters, Rangers, and Barbarians?

Shouldn't every class that takes the feats to use Manyshot be able to advance that skill with enhancements?

Totally agree with Aesop that enhancements should be based on Feats and Abilities, and not just because a player has so many levels of a certain class.

True so open it to any class that takes the feats, I still would leave the Requires one of's alone, meaning that a ranger can pick it up much early and not as expensively. Making it aquirable by everyone but still somewhat specific to rangers since Many Shot is one of their primary class abilities (not so much in DDO because ranged combat is kind of a joke, but still).

[Kalanth]

I would need more information to understand how / why the current Manyshot is underpowered. I have a Paladin 10 / Ranger 6 that uses a bow when necessary (or outside) and uses Manyshot quite frequently. What I notice is the quick death of the enemy and then I switch over to melee and finish off what I could not before the timer ran out. From my experience it is a matter of play style more than the feat, as most Rangers I know of (or ranged characters in general) don't seem willing to switch from Ranger to Melee or Vice Versa when there is a need to.

[Zenako]

In my opinion, the only class ability that can rival a well executed Manyshot is the Bard's Fascinate. IF the goal is to take the enemy out of action, Fascinate is quicker, surer and does not need the targets lined up. If you actually need to kill the mobs, then Manyshot is better.

From what I see, the biggest drawback to manyshot is not the actual feat and how it works, but that most groups have ZERO patience to let it reset. If the nominal drawbacks to Raging actually existed in game, so that the Barbarians could not be 24/7 amped up, then they might want/need to wait a few moments between rages as well. I KNOW in PnP D&D that the group I am playing in we have a very good 24/7 Dwarf Ftr. When the Half Orc Barbarian (yah we got heavy into stereotypes here...) Rages he can kick ass, but when it runs out in X rounds, he becomes a shell of his previous raging self. In PnP it is very easy to wait it out and just state, ok we are waiting until everyone is back to normal. In DDO, I see almost no occurances of fatigued Barbs in quests. With that oversight, it makes the 20 seconds on, 100 seconds off timer for Manyshot seem a whole lot less useful. However, I can take my Ranger out solo, and using stealth and manyshot, clear out quests that would be a lot of trouble using almost any other method, and likely require lots of healing or repair. It will take a bit more time, and that alas is a currency many players are unwilling to spend.

[Delacroix21]

Although saying manyshot is *more powerful* is not equivalent to saying that it produces higher dps. Obviously, if long range attacks generated damage close to melee attacks, long range attacks would be singificantly overpowered. There is much less risk involved in long range combat and it should never equal melee damage.

How long do enemies really stay at a range anyway? It should at least come close to meele as well. With mobs HP the way it is, It takes FOREVER to range down a mob without manyshot.


Not to mention orthons and devils making you lose target constantly and being in your face after the first shot.

[salmag]

I'd be happy to spend action points on thermal detonators and nuclear armed RPG's, but seeing as how multishot is one of the most powerful abilities in the game I think it would throw things off balance a bit.

I disagree with the WHOLE balance argument.

Wizards and Sorcs at higher levels are the most powerful classes in game, period. Nothing beats finger of death, banishment, firewall, delayed blast fireball, dismissal, PK, enervation, and the list could go on and on and on. Clerics have their blade barrier, comet fall, etc. also. They are balanced WITHIN their class (meaning weak in the low levels and strong in the higher levels - as it should be). The melee classes are pretty well balanced through all levels WITHIN their own classes (barbs give up AC for DPS, fighters keep AC for best overall melee ability, pallys are pretty resilient overall, melee rangers give up AC for TWF/finesse). I am ok with that.

However, if you want to play an ARCHER you are instantly gimped, and manyshot is the ONLY saving grace you have. Alas, it only lasts for 20 seconds every two minutes. This basically makes the FEAT no more then a boost effect and less than that to boot. Imagine if cleave was once every 2 minutes, or power attack could only be active for 20 seconds every 2 minutes. Or how about making maximize, empower, et al. active for 20 seconds with a 2 minute cooldown. How would that be?

From what I could see there are several acceptable fixes to manyshot:

A. Lower the cooldown timer to 30 seconds.

B. Bring it in-line with PnP rules, imposing the penalties.

c. Many it a toggleable stance, interchangeable with improved precise shot - ie. either one or the other can be active at a time.

d. Lengthen the time it is active to rival that of Rage, along with the enhancements to increase that time. Fatigue sets in afterward and acts as a cooldown timer.

As it is right NOW, any fix to manyshot would greatly improve the game. And it is DEFINATELY NOT a balance issue.

[Issip]

Although saying manyshot is *more powerful* is not equivalent to saying that it produces higher dps. Obviously, if long range attacks generated damage close to melee attacks, long range attacks would be singificantly overpowered. There is much less risk involved in long range combat and it should never equal melee damage.

I don't see this at all. If I could have manyshot on 100% of the time there is no class that could come close in kills, everything would die seconds after it comes in range of my spot skill. There is almost no common mob (bosses aside) that can last 5 shots with multishot, which is enough time for them to figure out where you are, turn toward you, and take on step. I would solo everything on my ranger because there would be no need for any other classes, pretty much ever. Rangers can already solo most of the game, but they have to be patient to do it, with perma-multishot it would be a run through.

Hmmm... let me see about getting FRAPS running and posting some video of groups of high level mobs being deleted with a powerful multishot - then extrapolating that to consider "always" as in stance - it should end the argument of whether it would be overpowered - it would be. Not sure when I'll have a chance to do that (I'm wondering if someone hasn't already posted something like this somewhere).

Oh, and barbarian crit rage is powerful, but doesn't quite multiply damage by 4, and targets a single mob at a time - although I will concede that I am always thinking of manyshot in combination with improved precise shot, which is 2 separate abilities not one single ability, if you limit the discussion to a single target some other abilities come close.

[Coldin]

I don't see this at all. If I could have manyshot on 100% of the time there is no class that could come close in kills, everything would die seconds after it comes in range of my spot skill. There is almost no common mob (bosses aside) that can last 5 shots with multishot, which is enough time for them to figure out where you are, turn toward you, and take on step. I would solo everything on my ranger because there would be no need for any other classes, pretty much ever. Rangers can already solo most of the game, but they have to be patient to do it, with perma-multishot it would be a run through.

Hmmm... let me see about getting FRAPS running and posting some video of groups of high level mobs being deleted with a powerful multishot - then extrapolating that to consider "always" as in stance - it should end the argument of whether it would be overpowered - it would be. Not sure when I'll have a chance to do that (I'm wondering if someone hasn't already posted something like this somewhere).

Oh, and barbarian crit rage is powerful, but doesn't quite multiply damage by 4, and targets a single mob at a time - although I will concede that I am always thinking of manyshot in combination with improved precise shot, which is 2 separate abilities not one single ability, if you limit the discussion to a single target some other abilities come close.

Yeah, Manyshot would be overpowered if you could always have it on at no penalty. But as it is right now, you can only use it 20 seconds per 2 minutes.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Manyshot is fine!

When people say ranged combat is broke, they are not talking about Manyshot.
Many people suggest changews to manyshot to fox ranged combat......but that would only make chars with manyshot more powerful, which would not fix ranged combat.

Ranged combat is broke, because ranged combat is USELESS for any char without Rapidshot and Manyshot!

To fix ranged combat, speed it up for everyone!
Not sure exactly how much, but IMO make non-rapid shot speed what rapidshot gives now, and speed up rapidshot to something a lot closer to melee speed.

If you do that.....believe me.....no Ranger will ever complain again!
And everyone else will actually be able to use ranged combat when it makes sense to do so, and not feel totally useless!

[frugal_gourmet]

I don't see this at all. If I could have manyshot on 100% of the time there is no class that could come close in kills, everything would die seconds after it comes in range of my spot skill.

Are you trying to disagree with me somehow?

[Sue_Dark]

/NOT signed

I have 4 different breeds of ranger and think that MS is just fine as it is. I can think of far better things to enhance the game than adding or taking away from this particular feat, but I dont want to derail the OP's thread.

[Sue_Dark]

I agree with this and to expound upon it further, why can't some of the other enhancements be that way also... for example, if a Fighter wants to take the Spring Attack line and the Two Weapon Fighting line, why should he be excluded from taking the Tempest enhancement?

Don't jump on me about it being a Ranger thing and if you want it, take the six levels of Ranger, because if you look at my SIG, I play Rangers... If they can do it with Arcane Archer (Ranger Arcane & Elven Arcane), they can do it with some of the other enhancements.

Plus, if you take Toughness, that should open up the enhancement line no matter your class!

For a very long time, people cried about how weak and pitiful rangers were. We were the last to get picked for most content. The Devs addd some enhancements to make Rangers more viable. Honestly, I think to take any ranger specialty, you SHOULD be required to take 6 levels of Ranger (considering the current lay of the land). Everyone else has their own specialties and to obtain them you have to make an investment, why should anyone be able to get Ranger enhancements without an investment?

[Brandiwyne]

...to everyone that took the time to respond.

I should have been more careful about the way I worded the original post, I guess; I was more curious if people would prioritize spending action points into an enhancement line that increased the duration of manyshot as opposed to other enhancement lines if given the option, and what they felt would be an equitable trade-off for action points spent vs. rewards gained.

Instead, it seems some (if not most) took this as plea to increase the power of manyshot, which was not really my intent; but reading my original post, I can plainly see how it would be taken as such.

In any case, some interesting and good responses therein. Thanks again.

[cypan41]

Talon has this completely correct. Bow's are broken, or under-balanced.
A simple tweaking to the firing time would be all it takes. Speed up the base and rapid shot, doesn't need to be extraordinary but enough to put the damage output higher than it is now, slightly lower than a melee's.
As far as manyshot goes, leave it as it is. Same number of arrows fired at the same rate. Everyone agrees that it works very well. It's just the rest of the time it makes an archer a detriment to the party.

Btw I've attempted to make a viable archer character since this game came out. I've tried everything from pure ranger, to 2 ranger fighter/rogue, about 6 other random builds trying to get one to be viable, and finally to the one I have currently which is the best I've been able to work out. (not tellin!)

But all of them over the past years are always, ALWAYS, less productive with a bow than they even are with a sword and board. Same toon, built for archery, and consistently will do more damage and be more viable using weapons he's not built for. NOT to mention what melee types built for melee look like in comparison to the archer...... It's just sad.

Up the basic firing rate already! You already did it once. So it's gotta be just a matter of switching a few numbers, testing it out, flipping them lower or higher... Seriously work on it on Risa for a week, find the right lvl that seems to work, reset the server and then patch the main ones..

OH ALSO fix the Green Steel bows so they actually work. That'd be nice too.
Thanks

[cypan41]

Also if you want to balance things up a bit.
Make any shot fired hit a target in front of you like fighters swinging a melee weapon. They don't have to target mobs standing in front of them, why should archers? No it's not because they are swinging, or else all the blows would be glancing ones. As it is now, the game just assumes that you'll hit one of the targets within the arc you are facing. With a bow it's a straight line. Widen the arc and it will make archers seem to assume a target in front of them, just like the fighters do.

[geoffhanna]

My DEX ranger was built to be a bow user, but has since been turned tempest to keep him from being totally scrapped. I whip out my bow to manyshot the pit and other bosses, and thats about it.


I TWF most of the time too, but there are LOTS of places where bow using = very helpful. I still use mine all the time. Nearly every quest, at least for a little bit.

[Turial]

To balance things out correctly normal ROA with bows needs a 60% speed increase and the current speed at which you can fire with manyshot needs to be maintained (ie a speed penalty for using manyshot). In pnp you only gain attacks per round in ranged combat if you take Rapid shot, are hasted, etc. Manyshot allows you to shoot all the arrows you would get in a single round as a single shot (one attack roll at a penalty). Currently manyshot allows us to get off more arrows in that time span...which is why it seems so much more powerful. The reason bow based ranged combat gets the same number of attacks as sword and board is because the relative protections of each style is roughly the same. Sword and board is more defensive up close, Ranged benafits from a distance perspective but has dramatically decreased defense if the creature closes with you (easy for teleporting mobs and fast movers).

Granted doing that requires recoding manyshot, not going to happen, and dealing with the fact that they would then have to implement penalties to ranged combat along pnp standards otherwise ranged combat becomes very powerful. A 10% ROA for bows would place them slightly ahead of sword and board melee (how it is in pnp) over a 2 min period where manyshot is used. A better rate though would likely be a 6-8% increase in bow ROA, will place melee and ranged at almost the same number of attacks over a 2 min period when manyshot was used during it.

[Issip]

So I've read several threads debating on different mechanisms to allow manyshot to be more powerful.

Some like shorter cooldowns, some like longer active times, and some prefer an active stance with to-hit penalties.

As it stands, I don't believe the development team has any changes planned for this feat just yet.

Would adding an enhancement line to extend the active time for manyshot (similar to the extend rage enhancements) be an attractive option provided none of the other ideas were acceptable for game design?

/Not Signed

This thread keep re-appearing and every time I see it I am amazed by it. Manyshot is incredibly powerful, and, if used correctly by a lvl 16 ranger (or anyone with a 16 BAB) it is perhaps the most powerful ability in the game. Used in combination with the right bow and you have to go to major bosses to find mobs that won't just melt long before they have any chance of getting within range of the person spraying the crowd with manyshot. Amping up manyshot would unbalance the game, and as much as I would like my ranger to be god I kinda prefer to play in non-God-mode.

If you are talking about a very subtle change then it won't have any effect, if you are talking about a major (noticable) increase in the effectiveness of manyshot then you are talking about nearly obsoleting all non-ranged playable classes and styles.

[Coldin]

/Not Signed

This thread keep re-appearing and every time I see it I am amazed by it. Manyshot is incredibly powerful, and, if used correctly by a lvl 16 ranger (or anyone with a 16 BAB) it is perhaps the most powerful ability in the game. Used in combination with the right bow and you have to go to major bosses to find mobs that won't just melt long before they have any chance of getting within range of the person spraying the crowd with manyshot. Amping up manyshot would unbalance the game, and as much as I would like my ranger to be god I kinda prefer to play in non-God-mode.

If you are talking about a very subtle change then it won't have any effect, if you are talking about a major (noticable) increase in the effectiveness of manyshot then you are talking about nearly obsoleting all non-ranged playable classes and styles.

You have to look at it more than just when Many Shot is on though. Ranged combat should be a viable combat option even without having feats like Rapid Shot and Many Shot. But it's currently way too slow for it to really be considered by most players. Both Many Shot and Ranged combat as a whole need to be addressed. I certainly don't know what's the best way to fix it, but until something changes, archers are always going to be in the vast majority of the playerbase.

[Mapa]

...to everyone that took the time to respond.

I should have been more careful about the way I worded the original post, I guess; I was more curious if people would prioritize spending action points into an enhancement line that increased the duration of manyshot as opposed to other enhancement lines if given the option, and what they felt would be an equitable trade-off for action points spent vs. rewards gained.

Instead, it seems some (if not most) took this as plea to increase the power of manyshot, which was not really my intent; but reading my original post, I can plainly see how it would be taken as such.

In any case, some interesting and good responses therein. Thanks again.

I for one see the need more Ranger enhansements. My gimped 28 point Human Ranger 15 / Fighter 1 from hell ;) has onese, twosed enough low level enhansements just to spend the AP's and get the + off my screen. Give me something to spend my AP's on after Tempest, Dex, and Favored lines.

[Milolyen]

You have to look at it more than just when Many Shot is on though. Ranged combat should be a viable combat option even without having feats like Rapid Shot and Many Shot. But it's currently way too slow for it to really be considered by most players. Both Many Shot and Ranged combat as a whole need to be addressed. I certainly don't know what's the best way to fix it, but until something changes, archers are always going to be in the vast majority of the playerbase.

First off ... Why look at archery over all when talking about enhancements for multi-shot? You CAN easily switch to melee after it is off and go in to melee. Makeing it longer does not make the fix archery that everyone feels is necessary ... it just extends its "supposedly" only usefull time to use it.


...to everyone that took the time to respond.

I should have been more careful about the way I worded the original post, I guess; I was more curious if people would prioritize spending action points into an enhancement line that increased the duration of manyshot as opposed to other enhancement lines if given the option, and what they felt would be an equitable trade-off for action points spent vs. rewards gained.

Instead, it seems some (if not most) took this as plea to increase the power of manyshot, which was not really my intent; but reading my original post, I can plainly see how it would be taken as such.

In any case, some interesting and good responses therein. Thanks again.

I would spend enhancement points in any enhancement line that improved multi-shot. However I do not feel ranged it gimped at all after multi-shot is gained and is right where it should be when improved precise shot is gained. With the exception of orthons and devils there is no trash mob that can make it to you with a good bow and multishot. There is nothing (other than spells) that can out dmg multishot with 2 + mobs lined up once you get improved precise shot. You get 5+ mobs lined up with IPS and even without multishot you are doing more dmg than dual wielding it is just spaced out over those 5+ mobs but you are doing more dps. With archery generally speaking the more mobs you get the more fun it is. Ever see a line of 30 + mobs go down in less than 20 seconds? ... graverobber on elite, lvl 9 quest and 11 on elite. Run past everything down that first hallway, turn around and go back, once past the majority of them hit Multi-Shot and keep running backwards while fireing. Can be soloed by a ranger pretty easily once you get improved precise shot and with multi-shot.

I feel sorry for you if you lvled up a ranged based ranger and find him to be gimped. Specially where if I want I can steal agroe from anyone in the game, if the mob lives long enough that is. Suulo ... please I have to tone down my dmg to him it is so easy to steal him from even the best of tanks and am forced to focus more on the trash mobs in there, also if there is not enough tanks I can kite the red orthons around a bit and take less dmg than the fighters. I range the entire time in that raid and still lead the kill count every time I go in. Granted kill count does not mean **** but if I am attacking as slow and weak as you guys say then how could I lead at all?

Milolyen

[Turial]

So milolyen, do you use manyshot for its duration and then switch to two-weapon or do you use ranged during times when manyshot is cooling down?

The reason I ask is because I would like to hear your thoughts on the current ROA and balance of ranged combat when manyshot is not being used. Personally I think manyshot is a tad too powerful, but its really all ranged combat has going for it.

Just a few notes:
Ranged combat is 60% behind sword and board melee in number of attacks without manyshot.
With manyshot and a time period of 2 minutes ranged combat is 10% behind sword and board melee in number of attacks.

[redoubt]

Grab some madstone boots and rage pots, and maybe a divine power and divine favor clickie. Now get yourself a +5 bow with a couple mods, or just an old silver longbow. Click the clickies, take aim at a boss, turn on auto-attack, and read the numbers. I almost forgot Ram's Might - the ranger only self-cast spell that increased damage and str by 2 (size bonus) so +3 to every attack, which can be buffed through the entire quest, I think I prefer it to barbarian rage...

You should be able to hit for 27-30 points of damage per arrow before adding in holy or pure good, so you get about 120 damage per hit + any other adder (holy, etc.) x4, and of course x3 for any crit with a longbow. That isn't overpowered, it's competetive with barbarians raged to the teeth, but not overpowered (except of course that the ranger doesn't ahve to be anywhere near the boss to do this damage while the barbarian needs constant heals to maintain his DPS).

Now take aim at 20 mobs and get those numbers on say 15 of the 20 because that's the best you can line them up. So you then multiply that damage by 15. There is no weapon attack that appraoches this type of damage - only major AoE spells.

Now try the same thing with WoP longbow (these aren't even that rare). You get 4 con damage on each mob for each atack, plus 1d6 for any crits. Nothing, not even sorcerors with improved critting firewalls can drop mobs that fast.

Used properly multishot is the most powerful single ability in the game period. If you can't do enough damage with it then you are not utilizing it very well, and extending it or making it more powerful would make my ranger ridiculous. I know rangers that make my ranger look like a silly fool, so I can only imagine how ridiculous their toons would be if multishot was extended or made even more powerful in some way.

I think the Devs know how powerful a ranger can be if you play it properly so I don't anticipate them extending or altering multishot.


You make a case for overpowered by saying if you do these 5 things then its way too much. That's like saying a cold spell is overpowered simply because it does purple numbers to a fire based creature.

Second, at 20 seconds out of every 2 minutes it is far from overpowered. I have a level 8 ranger/barb and after 20 seconds I have to switch to a big ole maul to finish off the **** that is now mad at me, but not dead.

Third, the act of lining up the targets and getting damage on all of them is from the feat "improved precise shot". This feat and its prereq, precise shot, are not related to multi/manyshot. True, the three feat work very well together, but you cannot claim that manyshot is overpowered because you use it with two other feats. At the very least, please claim that the combination of these three feats is overpowered and not just blaim it on one feat. (Though I do not believe the combo is overpowered either. I'm working on my second ranged focused character now. The first spends most of its time dual wielding and the second, even at 8th level, using a two handed weapon at least 50% of the time just for efficiency.)

[redoubt]

For the other concept of manyshot enhancements I say tie them to the feat and not a class.

[Milolyen]

So milolyen, do you use manyshot for its duration and then switch to two-weapon or do you use ranged during times when manyshot is cooling down?

The reason I ask is because I would like to hear your thoughts on the current ROA and balance of ranged combat when manyshot is not being used. Personally I think manyshot is a tad too powerful, but its really all ranged combat has going for it.

Just a few notes:
Ranged combat is 60&#37; behind sword and board melee in number of attacks without manyshot.
With manyshot and a time period of 2 minutes ranged combat is 10% behind sword and board melee in number of attacks.

To be honest I think it is fine as it is. Would I like to see it go up ... ya but then I think it would be overpowering on a good ranger, I am very good at lining the mobs up and putting IPS to use. I have been accused of killing stuff to fast as it is. In another thread I made a challenge to match my bow up against any duel wielding tempest, will add two handed barb or any melee dps person for that matter, in any quest of their choice and that I would get farther faster than they would. Think I would even go for letting them have a cleric for healing purposes only.

As far as putting down my bow ... I do that in certain instances only and generally for my vorpal main/paralizing offhand combo, or dual construct bane maces, have not bothered to find a second finesse vorpal yet but been meaning too. Bow of choice for trash mobs is w/p longbow and for undead/stat dmg immune I use mineral 2 longbow. I love the all purpose bow that the mineral 2 is. Makes it so I only have to carry around the +3 house d sturdy arrows and not all the silver/cold iron/adamantine/ any other type you can name.

Milolyen

[Milolyen]

You make a case for overpowered by saying if you do these 5 things then its way too much. That's like saying a cold spell is overpowered simply because it does purple numbers to a fire based creature.

Second, at 20 seconds out of every 2 minutes it is far from overpowered. I have a level 8 ranger/barb and after 20 seconds I have to switch to a big ole maul to finish off the **** that is now mad at me, but not dead.

Third, the act of lining up the targets and getting damage on all of them is from the feat "improved precise shot". This feat and its prereq, precise shot, are not related to multi/manyshot. True, the three feat work very well together, but you cannot claim that manyshot is overpowered because you use it with two other feats. At the very least, please claim that the combination of these three feats is overpowered and not just blaim it on one feat. (Though I do not believe the combo is overpowered either. I'm working on my second ranged focused character now. The first spends most of its time dual wielding and the second, even at 8th level, using a two handed weapon at least 50% of the time just for efficiency.)

What lvl ranger are you in your second case? Because at lvl 16 only Red and purple named can last a full 20 second manyshot bombardment from a solo ranger. But I will agree that ranged does not get good untill you have improved precise shot to go with that manyshot and it is a combo deal where you can't say that many shot itself is overpowered but you can easily make a case for manyshot/improved precise shot being an overpowered combo.

Milolyen

[Issip]

You have to look at it more than just when Many Shot is on though. Ranged combat should be a viable combat option even without having feats like Rapid Shot and Many Shot. But it's currently way too slow for it to really be considered by most players. Both Many Shot and Ranged combat as a whole need to be addressed. I certainly don't know what's the best way to fix it, but until something changes, archers are always going to be in the vast majority of the playerbase.

Stop looking at the killboard and pay attention to the game. Yeah, using ranged combat you won't get as many kills as the barbarian, this does not mean ranged combat needs to be revisited. Try using a paralyzing bow - that slows the mobs down nice, or how about a cursespewing bow of shattermantle when the casters are going nuts with the PK's? Oh, right, if you don't get the kill then it isn't worth doing. I am glad there is a class that gets overlooked by people whose only play style is kill-count for speed zerging.

You can solo most of the content in the game with a ranger, it takes a little patience and some tactics (different tactics than kill-count for speed zerging, not necessarily better, just different). You can also be of huge benefit to any group. I have no sympathy that you cannot own the killboard by turning on auto-attack and hitting tab.

As to Redoubt's comments, rangers are weak at low levels - at level 8 you get 2 arrows/shot, but at level 16 you get 4. I would generally agree with a post that says lower level rangers could use some sort of help as they have little going for them, but I just see that as the price you pay for raising a ranger - in general I would go with a repeater until level 10 or 12, then change over to longbows when you have the ranger skills to really use them (yes that takes a feat re-spec, but that's essentially free with the price of sibyrus dragonshards). Using the repeater takes much of the low-level pain away, but there's a tough transitional period from level 8 to level 12 (when you pick up your third arrow from multishot).

[redoubt]

What lvl ranger are you in your second case? Because at lvl 16 only Red and purple named can last a full 20 second manyshot bombardment from a solo ranger. But I will agree that ranged does not get good untill you have improved precise shot to go with that manyshot and it is a combo deal where you can't say that many shot itself is overpowered but you can easily make a case for manyshot/improved precise shot being an overpowered combo.

Milolyen

One is a dex based (35 at present) with str at 24ish and has 14 ranger levels and 2 rogue levels. This is the one I was saying mostly does TWF.

My other is 2 ranger and 6 barbarian. Will have all the same ranged feats as a ranger gets for free anyway. As a level 8 in one of the necropolis first series on elite (so level 7 quest elite) I was standing at the top of a big ramp with some sort of wight at the bottom. Bulls str, double range and a bard song. Click damage boost II and multi-shot. The first wight made it 2/3 the way up the ramp and the second got to hit me before he died. At that point the multi-shot is expired and we go melee everything else.

So, while manyshot is nice, I don't think it is overpowered. It is the only thing giving ranged a chance. Without it, most things of the appropriate level can close on my bowbarian before dying. (Kobald assault doesn't count! :D ) I will caveat that I compare most things to the elite setting as I rarely run quests on anything else anymore.

[Coldin]

Stop looking at the killboard and pay attention to the game. Yeah, using ranged combat you won't get as many kills as the barbarian, this does not mean ranged combat needs to be revisited. Try using a paralyzing bow - that slows the mobs down nice, or how about a cursespewing bow of shattermantle when the casters are going nuts with the PK's? Oh, right, if you don't get the kill then it isn't worth doing. I am glad there is a class that gets overlooked by people whose only play style is kill-count for speed zerging.

You can solo most of the content in the game with a ranger, it takes a little patience and some tactics (different tactics than kill-count for speed zerging, not necessarily better, just different). You can also be of huge benefit to any group. I have no sympathy that you cannot own the killboard by turning on auto-attack and hitting tab.

As to Redoubt's comments, rangers are weak at low levels - at level 8 you get 2 arrows/shot, but at level 16 you get 4. I would generally agree with a post that says lower level rangers could use some sort of help as they have little going for them, but I just see that as the price you pay for raising a ranger - in general I would go with a repeater until level 10 or 12, then change over to longbows when you have the ranger skills to really use them (yes that takes a feat re-spec, but that's essentially free with the price of sibyrus dragonshards). Using the repeater takes much of the low-level pain away, but there's a tough transitional period from level 8 to level 12 (when you pick up your third arrow from multishot).

Ugh...my post had absolutely nothing to do with that my kill count isn't enough. This isn't even about Ranger vs other classes. Rangers are awesome, giving great versatility, good buffs, great defense, and even some light healing. But sadly, whenever people start talking about ranged combat, every starts talking about how great rangers are and how bad these players must be.

This post merely shows to me how blind some people can be to how the imbalanced ranged combat is to melee. I mean, you're seriously recommending that someone uses a repeater up till their bow ranged combat catches up (and even then only 20 seconds at a time). That's just ridiculous.

Ranged combat should be even with melee across all levels, and with other forms of ranged combat like repeaters. Repeaters in fact are supposed to be slightly weaker, but requiring a smaller feat investment.

Look, I'm not saying here I'm upset because I'm not getting the kills. Really, that's not my issue at all, and not even sure where you got that. My problem is the disparity between the DPS between someone with a bow, and someone with a sword. If both characters invested nothing into either and were equal in all other aspects, the sword would win out, by a large margin. And if both characters invested fully into their chosen form of combat, the sword would still win out, with the archer only catching up every 2 minutes.

From the SRD, multiple attacks are gained from increasing BaB.

A second attack is gained when a base attack bonus reaches +6, a third with a base attack bonus of +11 or higher, and a fourth with a base attack bonus of +16 or higher

Which is roughly represented by the increasing speed of attacks made, and progressive animations. But nowhere does it say that melee should gain more attacks than ranged.

Now, it can be said that ranged combat should be slower because it's safer. But really, this is only partly true. A ranged character is in some instances more at risk, due to a lower AC, quick monsters, and/or fast shooting ranged mobs. In fact, mob archers (even melee ones that pull out a bow) are quite deadly with ranged combat too.

Even with that, I'll still agree that it should be slower than melee, since we're talking about a real-time combat system. But even so, ranged should only be ~80% of melee speed. If the devs are so worried about Many Shot being too powerful then, they can add the appropriate penalties, or slow down the rate of fire while it's active.

Basically, ranged combat should be completely re-evaluated. The overall system, from it's basic progression, to feats and enhancements. I don't know if that will ever really happen, considering DDO's current state of development, but I firmly feel that until they do, DDO will live in a melee world.

[Turial]

To be honest I think it is fine as it is. Would I like to see it go up ... ya but then I think it would be overpowering on a good ranger, I am very good at lining the mobs up and putting IPS to use. I have been accused of killing stuff to fast as it is. In another thread I made a challenge to match my bow up against any duel wielding tempest, will add two handed barb or any melee dps person for that matter, in any quest of their choice and that I would get farther faster than they would. Think I would even go for letting them have a cleric for healing purposes only.

As far as putting down my bow ... I do that in certain instances only and generally for my vorpal main/paralizing offhand combo, or dual construct bane maces, have not bothered to find a second finesse vorpal yet but been meaning too. Bow of choice for trash mobs is w/p longbow and for undead/stat dmg immune I use mineral 2 longbow. I love the all purpose bow that the mineral 2 is. Makes it so I only have to carry around the +3 house d sturdy arrows and not all the silver/cold iron/adamantine/ any other type you can name.

Milolyen


Would you be willing to admit that those without a WOP longbow may find a 600+ non-red named mob a little harder to take down in a manyshot volley. I have a Pos2 bow that I use for red and stat immune mobs (not nearly as good as a mineral 2 bow) but it comes no-where near as close to the killing power of WOP during a manyshot. To say that ranged combat is fine when only relying on the best of the best equipment is a little deceptive.

[salmag]

I really love when this topic comes up. It really amazes me how people say that manyshot is THE most powerful thing in this game, and that it should not be fixed.

Over the long haul, some comparisons:

Rage vs. Manyshot: Rage -> 3 minutes of Rage, wait a minute for fatigue (or take a lesser restore potion - less time), then another 3 minutes of rage equals 6 out of 7 minutes for DPS. Manyshot -> 20 seconds of manyshot, wait 2 minutes, another 20 seconds, wait two minutes, another 20 seconds, wait two minutes equals 1 minute of ranged DPS out of 7 (by which time the mobs are on top of you, beating you down with your light armor and lower AC- unless you move, and take penalties, which is a different topic entirely spring attack vs. shot on the run). If you lower the manyshot cooldown timer to 30 seconds (which I've stated before - in many other threads including this one) -> 20 seconds of manyshot, wait 30 seconds, another 20 seconds of manyshot, wait 30 seconds, another 20 seconds of manyshot, etc. equals 3 minutes out of 7. This is hardly overpowering when comparing it to rage.

Spells vs. Manyshot: This should not even have to be brought up. FOD, PK, Dismissal, Banishment, etc, etc, etc. Best DPS in the game, period. Manyshot doesn't even come close. The ONLY arguement and its a moot point at that is versus Red Names; but then again, a wizard/sorc/cleric should have other spells that do comparable or more damage in one shot. Disintegrate, FireWall, Blade Barrier, Cometfall, etc. all come to mind. Instant kill wins out over anything in this game, so I would have to say manyshot is hardly overpowering.

Other Feats vs. Manyshot: Power Attack -> you could leave it on, so in the long run more DPS. Cleave, Great Cleave -> minimal cooldown (not sure, I believe less then 10 seconds) so you could keep using it over and over and over, etc. Remember, 20 seconds of manyshot then 2 minute cooldown vs. all the time, and minimal cooldown. These are just a couple. I'm sure there are more. Once again, manyshot is hardly overpowering.

This doesn't take into account equipment, but if you make the same comparisons, the effects cancel each other out so those points become moot also. A vorpal wielding sword equals slaying arrows, maybe - they are roughly the same effect, however different mobs mean you have to keep swapping arrows plus you can only have a finite supply of arrows, so advantage sword; other effects are roughly the same as each other. W/P can be found in all weapon types not just bows, as can all bane weapons, etc.

When taken in the overall context of the game, manyshot is good, but not great and, you guessed it, hardly overpowering.

For it to be a FEAT, it is very underpowered. It should NOT be a glorified enhancement, or boost. It should be fixed. I listed some acceptable fixes earlier in this thread, but ANY fix would be good.

[Milolyen]

Would you be willing to admit that those without a WOP longbow may find a 600+ non-red named mob a little harder to take down in a manyshot volley. I have a Pos2 bow that I use for red and stat immune mobs (not nearly as good as a mineral 2 bow) but it comes no-where near as close to the killing power of WOP during a manyshot. To say that ranged combat is fine when only relying on the best of the best equipment is a little deceptive.

Not really, up until I got the w/p longbow I was useing a +1 wounding longbow of pure good and had no problems out in the vale or its quests (just to give you a reference of how long I used it I had actually gotten my mineral 2 bow before I got my W/P bow). You can't tell me that a +1 wounding longbow of pure good is all that uber or hard to find. After I upgraded to my w/p I lent that wounder out to 3 different people and each had it back to me within a couple weeks. Tried posting it up on the AH for 20kpp with a 30kpp buyout and did not sell. Sorry but to me that bow was worth atleast that and would rather keep it than to sell for less. But the point is I did not always have the best of the best equipment and Milolyen (my ranger of course) was my first char I created over 2 years ago (but was rerolled twice in the first month) and has always been my main.

That (I think) is the main difference. I know that char inside and out. I know (and test) what I can and can't do with him. Most play several different chars and when you do that it is a bit tougher to know the char you are playing. How many times you hear or say this phrase "sorry, I am used to playing my xxxxxx" Not only each class but each set up has its own play style and when you play many different ones it is easy to get them confused and you don't play them to there best.

Milolyen

[Zenako]

Couple of minor points - you get 4 arrows with Manyshot at BAB 16 not just at Ranger 16. (so any full BAB combo works as long as you have the Manyshot feat).

It is my experience that when playing to its strengths, Manyshot can let my Ranger kill almost any mob with minimal risk or resources expended. Manyshot with effects bows can be great fun in some quests (Disrupters, Smiters, etc). Transmuting of pure good is a great all purpose option when ever the Silver is not better...All those are short of the goodness you can craft.

If you have a W/P (I wish) bow, that can make it awesome. Even a nice Weakening of Enfeebling Bow can do wonders as well on selected mobs. You can neutralize the mob at ranges where the mob can do nothing to you.

Where the perception of manyshots libilities is enhanced is when a group is choosing to play to the strengths of other styles of combat. Since most of those styles rely on shorter term buffs (few minutes, like for Rage, Divine Power, Haste, etc) those styles tend to involve moving from fight to fight in a swift fashion to take advantage of those shorter term effects. (Now personally Barbarian Rage is broken from what it should be, but that is another whole discussion, but it is often the point counterpoint to discussions in these threads.)

About the only thing I think would be palatable from a overall balance perspective, would be some higher level required enhancements that could modifiy aspects of manyshot slightly. Like you have Extend song enhancements for bards, you could introduce some "reduce cooldown" enhancements for Rangers. Level 1 would knock 10 seconds off the cooldown (cost X AP), Level 2 would knock another 10 Second (cost 2X AP) and Level 3 would knock another 10 seconds off the cooldown (cost 3X AP). You will still be very unlikely to use it more than once per "battle", but will be more likely to have it available in the next fight on the quest given the playstyles that dominate the game.

I just think way too many people discount the benefits of killing at range and how you can do so and take no damage, while those huge melee dps styles do dish it out, but they almost all the time take it too and require healing or cures of some sort.

[Issip]

I really love when this topic comes up. It really amazes me how people say that manyshot is THE most powerful thing in this game, and that it should not be fixed.

Over the long haul, some comparisons:

Rage vs. Manyshot: Rage -> 3 minutes of Rage, wait a minute for fatigue (or take a lesser restore potion - less time), then another 3 minutes of rage equals 6 out of 7 minutes for DPS. Manyshot -> 20 seconds of manyshot, wait 2 minutes, another 20 seconds, wait two minutes, another 20 seconds, wait two minutes equals 1 minute of ranged DPS out of 7 (by which time the mobs are on top of you, beating you down with your light armor and lower AC- unless you move, and take penalties, which is a different topic entirely spring attack vs. shot on the run). If you lower the manyshot cooldown timer to 30 seconds (which I've stated before - in many other threads including this one) -> 20 seconds of manyshot, wait 30 seconds, another 20 seconds of manyshot, wait 30 seconds, another 20 seconds of manyshot, etc. equals 3 minutes out of 7. This is hardly overpowering when comparing it to rage.

And Rage quadruples your DPS just like manyshot right? Oh, wait, it adds like 10-20% vs. 400% for manyshot. I'm not even reading the rest of your post, it's not worth it.

[Coldin]

And Rage quadruples your DPS just like manyshot right? Oh, wait, it adds like 10-20% vs. 400% for manyshot. I'm not even reading the rest of your post, it's not worth it.

You fail to see that your manyshot only lasts for 20 seconds, where rage can last for over 3 minutes. It makes a big difference.

[Zenako]

You fail to see that your manyshot only lasts for 20 seconds, where rage can last for over 3 minutes. It makes a big difference.

Which plays exactly into my point. Very few "manyshot battles" last more than 20 seconds. Then move on to the next spot, rinse and repeat. With Rage battles, those too go fast, but there is an urgency in moving swiftly to the next battle before those 3 minutes run their course...and the next and the next...

[Coldin]

Which plays exactly into my point. Very few "manyshot battles" last more than 20 seconds. Then move on to the next spot, rinse and repeat. With Rage battles, those too go fast, but there is an urgency in moving swiftly to the next battle before those 3 minutes run their course...and the next and the next...

But with a manyshot fight, then you're stuck there waiting for your cooldown to expire so you can have a chance at killing everything again. Having to wait so you can be awesome for another 20 seconds isn't very fun in my opinion.

[Milolyen]

And Rage quadruples your DPS just like manyshot right? Oh, wait, it adds like 10-20% vs. 400% for manyshot. I'm not even reading the rest of your post, it's not worth it.


You fail to see that your manyshot only lasts for 20 seconds, where rage can last for over 3 minutes. It makes a big difference.

Actually manyshot > rage. Rage alone is not very powerfull ... +4 str +2 con -2 ac and + to will saves (forget how much) that +4 str is giveing only + 2 to your dmg and that 20 seconds of multishot can easily over come that +2 to dmg. Its the other stuff that complement many shot and rage that make them so powerfull. Rage has all those enhancements (particularly the increase to threat range) and manyshot has improved precise shot(I also like the deepwoods sniper as well). The reason you see so many "good" barbarian's is the fact that it is not complicated to play them. To be a good ranger you need to be a good player that knows his char.

I am telling you with a ranger it is all about timeing, picking your shots and patients. Don't just hit manyshot every time it pops up and there are mobs around ... waiting for the bigger fights makes better use of it specially when you have improved precise shot. Ya you may spend an extra min with it loaded and ready to go but when there is only 1-3 mobs around it is not all that necessary to burn it ... wait a min when you will have 6 - 8 mobs on you and you will more than make up for that lost min. At level 16 you can easily have the group bypass an entire fight by hitting manyshot and kiting them off. The last fight on the way to the hound is a prime example of this ... usually group leader calls to go south first ... I head north and have north dead usually before multishot runs out and before the rest finish with south. Sorry but when a ranger can kill an equal number of mobs faster than 11 others then I call that pretty powerfull ... good luck getting even close to that with a rage.

Milolyen

[paintedman]

/Not Signed

This thread keep re-appearing and every time I see it I am amazed by it. Manyshot is incredibly powerful, and, if used correctly by a lvl 16 ranger (or anyone with a 16 BAB) it is perhaps the most powerful ability in the game. Used in combination with the right bow and you have to go to major bosses to find mobs that won't just melt long before they have any chance of getting within range of the person spraying the crowd with manyshot. Amping up manyshot would unbalance the game, and as much as I would like my ranger to be god I kinda prefer to play in non-God-mode.

If you are talking about a very subtle change then it won't have any effect, if you are talking about a major (noticable) increase in the effectiveness of manyshot then you are talking about nearly obsoleting all non-ranged playable classes and styles.

and here's mine

There are some pretty steep penalties to hit when you are firing your max arrows in pnp. Perhapse some balance can be made in that area. Make Manyshot a variable stance, so no CE with it, Precision, ect. Second, increase the penalty per arrow. So sure you can fire five or so arrows every shot, but on decently armoured mobs, you will only be hitting about as many times as you would if it was not on. I think there was some talk about making Manyshot kinda like a pull down menu, fire, two, three ect, and add the penalty as you increase the # of arrows.

As for game balancement...well from sorc's and barbarians, I'm not sure that we need to worry about balance anymore. Seem pretty clear at least to me that all the classes are gonna go up in power. Will trash mobs die from a couple of salvos from a ranger, sure they will, but is that any different from Finger of Death or a vorpral from a fighter type? Throw in dual weilding, and it seem to me like a bunch of arrows is just a good a way for a mob to meet its end as any. As for risk reward, well, it was a choice to be a in your face character, just as it is a choice to fight from afar. And as someone stated, those teleporting mobs can make life a bit more complicated for the archer.

-paint

[Zenako]

And as someone stated, those teleporting mobs can make life a bit more complicated for the archer.
-paint


actually, teleporting mobs are easier for a ranged attacker to handle since they do not have to chase them around at all. Just target (turn if needed) and shoot, while those melee types are hopping all over the battlefield hoping to land blows from behind as they chase the dashing mobs...

[query]

Water..no WIND..no FIRE..DOH!



Which one was it again?


(Oh yeah, cause a faster Manyshot would be so broken unlike that balanced rage mentioned before. And yes kiddies, I play both rangers w manyshot and barbarians using rage and greater rage when allowed respectively.)

/sign, not like everyone knows my stance on that already:rolleyes:

[Jay203]

actually, teleporting mobs are easier for a ranged attacker to handle since they do not have to chase them around at all. Just target (turn if needed) and shoot, while those melee types are hopping all over the battlefield hoping to land blows from behind as they chase the dashing mobs...

wrong, teleporting/burrowing/phasing mobs give archers hell a lot of troubles
as an archer, if you lose your target when you fire the arrow, chances are you won't even get a roll to hit. such is not the case for the melees, they can swing at air and hit the mobs before they fully come back.
another thing archers have to deal with against the said mobs are the distance factor. archers are meant to keep distance from their target, the said mobs disappear until their close to the archer before they strike, and if the archer goes on high ground to be safe, the mobs now become bugged and just literally keep going in and out of the invulnerable mode (or worse yet, stay in that mode)

[Jay203]

<snip> :P
I am telling you with a ranger it is all about timeing, picking your shots and patients. Don't just hit manyshot every time it pops up and there are mobs around ... waiting for the bigger fights makes better use of it specially when you have improved precise shot. Ya you may spend an extra min with it loaded and ready to go but when there is only 1-3 mobs around it is not all that necessary to burn it ... wait a min when you will have 6 - 8 mobs on you and you will more than make up for that lost min. At level 16 you can easily have the group bypass an entire fight by hitting manyshot and kiting them off. The last fight on the way to the hound is a prime example of this ... usually group leader calls to go south first ... I head north and have north dead usually before multishot runs out and before the rest finish with south. Sorry but when a ranger can kill an equal number of mobs faster than 11 others then I call that pretty powerfull ... good luck getting even close to that with a rage.

Milolyen

while i agree with the fact that an archer is all about knowing where and what to shoot. i do, however, disagree with the fact that a ranger is able to pick off a group of mobs at higher end content THAT easily without the over-used wounding/puncturing weapons
any sort of blinking-mob is able to kill the archer in seconds.

[query]

"One shot one kill" Deepwoods Sniper of course. Pity there isn't more of me...I mean us ;)

[Milolyen]

while i agree with the fact that an archer is all about knowing where and what to shoot. i do, however, disagree with the fact that a ranger is able to pick off a group of mobs at higher end content THAT easily without the over-used wounding/puncturing weapons
any sort of blinking-mob is able to kill the archer in seconds.

Not so. Banishing bow out in the vale I have soloed (unless you count the 2 fiend blood lion pets) a group of 1 named bearded devil, 3 bearded devils, 3 orthons and 2 of the beserkas (sp?) without comeing close to dieing and that was before I got any shroud items.

Sneak up, pets go in hit manyshot/deepwoods sniper for first shot (and yes currently deepwoods sniper is added before improved crit ranged so with both you can crit on a 17-20 for that shot). Don't bother picking up targets and just use mouselook. No big deal.

And yes W/P is pretty much king on bows IMO.

Milolyen

[Jay203]

Not so. Banishing bow out in the vale I have soloed (unless you count the 2 fiend blood lion pets) a group of 1 named bearded devil, 3 bearded devils, 3 orthons and 2 of the beserkas (sp?) without comeing close to dieing and that was before I got any shroud items.

Sneak up, pets go in hit manyshot/deepwoods sniper for first shot (and yes currently deepwoods sniper is added before improved crit ranged so with both you can crit on a 17-20 for that shot). Don't bother picking up targets and just use mouselook. No big deal.

And yes W/P is pretty much king on bows IMO.

Milolyen

now would the same apply to none-pet-summoning archers?
what about non-deepwoodsnipers?
you can't seriously expect everyone who wants to make an archer to go deepwood snipers
and solo'ing in vale is different from killing in elite quests >_>

[salmag]

Not so. Banishing bow out in the vale I have soloed (unless you count the 2 fiend blood lion pets) a group of 1 named bearded devil, 3 bearded devils, 3 orthons and 2 of the beserkas (sp?) without comeing close to dieing and that was before I got any shroud items.

Sneak up, pets go in hit manyshot/deepwoods sniper for first shot (and yes currently deepwoods sniper is added before improved crit ranged so with both you can crit on a 17-20 for that shot). Don't bother picking up targets and just use mouselook. No big deal.

And yes W/P is pretty much king on bows IMO.

Milolyen

DO not bring equipment into the conversation, because you can get the same effects with other weapons. And the rage on barbarians other the long haul do more damage over time then 20 seconds wait 2 minutes.

Oh, and Issip, you don't have to read the rest of my post to admit you do NOT understand what I was saying. Just say you don't understand, I will spell it out better for you.

The manyshot cooldown timer makes manyshot good for 20 seconds. Rage makes DPS good for over 3 minutes. So over a three minute timespan, a barbarian can take down more mobs, then an archer can in 20 seconds then wait 2 minutes. The archer, more then likely, will have to retreat from the battle, after the initial 20 seconds; a barbarian can go for the FULL three minutes.

NOTE: I am not talking about weapon types, because that point is a moot one. And I am not talking about Spring Attack vs. Shot on the Run, nor am I talking about lining up mobs with Improved precise shot. The conversation is about manyshot.

Does that spell it out better for you, Issip. If not, let me know, I'll type REAL slow for you.

[Milolyen]

now would the same apply to none-pet-summoning archers?
what about non-deepwoodsnipers?
you can't seriously expect everyone who wants to make an archer to go deepwood snipers
and solo'ing in vale is different from killing in elite quests >_>

Fiend-blood lions are not summoned they where charmed using the rangers ability "Improved wild empathy"

Deepwoods Sniper is like cleave and great cleave it is only for the next attack not for multiple attacks. So while I find it helpfull it was not necessary.

Yup and good luck getting a raging barb to solo those same elite quests you are talking about. Already said several times I would match my bows up against a barb any day solo and may even let the barb have a cleric for healing purposes only.

Sorry but putting enhancements on many shot would make it over powered in my opinion even more so than improved crit rage is overpowering for barbarians rage ability. The "fix" most people seek for ranged combat lies elsewhere and most likely in a greater rate of fire. Any changes made to manyshot would either make it overpowered (turning it into a stance or allow it to last longer) or nerf it (turning it into a stance and increaseing the to-hit penalty).


DO not bring equipment into the conversation, because you can get the same effects with other weapons. And the rage on barbarians other the long haul do more damage over time then 20 seconds wait 2 minutes.

Oh, and Issip, you don't have to read the rest of my post to admit you do NOT understand what I was saying. Just say you don't understand, I will spell it out better for you.

The manyshot cooldown timer makes manyshot good for 20 seconds. Rage makes DPS good for over 3 minutes. So over a three minute timespan, a barbarian can take down more mobs, then an archer can in 20 seconds then wait 2 minutes. The archer, more then likely, will have to retreat from the battle, after the initial 20 seconds; a barbarian can go for the FULL three minutes.

NOTE: I am not talking about weapon types, because that point is a moot one. And I am not talking about Spring Attack vs. Shot on the Run, nor am I talking about lining up mobs with Improved precise shot. The conversation is about manyshot.

Does that spell it out better for you, Issip. If not, let me know, I'll type REAL slow for you.

Jay asked what about if I didn't have the almighty W/P and also said the teleporting mobs will "kill the archer in seconds" I told him about experiences I had where I killed multiple teleporting mobs without using a W/P bow.

As far as the rage verse many shot debate you are talking about ... I already answered that and IMO manyshot comes out on top and that is without any other factors (ON BOTH SIDES) see my earlier post where I quoted you and Issip (about 10 up from this one).

so you can understand
You can't take out things that complement the manyshot ability without taking out the things that complement rage as well and call it a fair comparison.

With you saying rage lasts 3 mins I will assume you are talking about lvl 16 so I will talk about lvl 16 manyshot. For 20 seconds out of 120 seconds you quadruple your number of attacks, with rage you gain +4 str, +2 con, + to will save (don't remember how much) so net gain to dps is + 2 dmg on every hit that connects. Which ability is more powerfull? Hard to say till you start takeing in other factors but personally I like the ability to take the mobs down quick that manyshot gives.

Now if you want to include all the enhancements rage gets you will need to include the things that complement manyshot as well ... your call on that one.

Milolyen

[Zenako]

Fiend-blood lions are not summoned they where charmed using the rangers ability "Improved wild empathy"
I like the ability to take the mobs down quick that manyshot gives.

Milolyen

Tangent ---- I actually prefer the hyena's they seem a bit tougher and last longer as allies...at least on that side of the Vale, fewer choices on the other side I guess...

[Milolyen]

Tangent ---- I actually prefer the hyena's they seem a bit tougher and last longer as allies...at least on that side of the Vale, fewer choices on the other side I guess...

Really? I always prefered the fiend-blood myself I think they have a better trip but could just be my experiences have differed. Either way Improved Wild Empathy rocks in the higher lvl quests where you can use it. (specially maze of madness elite ... those cr 18 kitties make some MEAN pets).

Miloleyn

[Issip]

DO not bring equipment into the conversation, because you can get the same effects with other weapons. And the rage on barbarians other the long haul do more damage over time then 20 seconds wait 2 minutes.

Oh, and Issip, you don't have to read the rest of my post to admit you do NOT understand what I was saying. Just say you don't understand, I will spell it out better for you.

The manyshot cooldown timer makes manyshot good for 20 seconds. Rage makes DPS good for over 3 minutes. So over a three minute timespan, a barbarian can take down more mobs, then an archer can in 20 seconds then wait 2 minutes. The archer, more then likely, will have to retreat from the battle, after the initial 20 seconds; a barbarian can go for the FULL three minutes.

NOTE: I am not talking about weapon types, because that point is a moot one. And I am not talking about Spring Attack vs. Shot on the Run, nor am I talking about lining up mobs with Improved precise shot. The conversation is about manyshot.

Does that spell it out better for you, Issip. If not, let me know, I'll type REAL slow for you.

Type as slow as you think for all I care, it doesn't help your failed argument. As others have spelled out for you above, slower, and using smaller words, having 3 minutes of a 10-20&#37; DPS improvement is not better than 20 seconds of 300% DPS improvement (I put 400% above, but feel for consitency I should correct my math). Argue it untill you're blue in the face it won't make it true.

As far as the number of mobs a barbarian can kill in 3 minutes you are getting completely off topic. I never said archers kill more mobs than barbarians, or kill them faster - that is irrelevant to the original topic which is manyshot is perhaps the most powerful single ability in the game. I never said that rangers should always use bows - I usually swap out of bow after manyshot - if mobs are after me I swap to sword and board for the 55 AC - hell even shield blocking while the melee scrape the last few mobs off of me works great, but a nice rapier is more fun. If there's an intimi-tank around I'll use twf to max DPS between manyshots. If the mobs have bad saves I may just use my paralyzing bow, etc.. The fact that manyshot is more powerful than rage doesn't mean you can't change weapons ever.

At any rate since you don't have a level 16 ranger and have never used a BAB 16 manyshot, your input to the discussion of changes to manyshot is not very relevant.

[Zenako]

Really? I always prefered the fiend-blood myself I think they have a better trip but could just be my experiences have differed. Either way Improved Wild Empathy rocks in the higher lvl quests where you can use it. (specially maze of madness elite ... those cr 18 kitties make some MEAN pets).

Miloleyn

I just find those Hyenas have sooo many HP that they last quite a while. That the cats tend to die off quicker. Perhaps that is somewhat based on how I use and abuse my "friends" and given the limited numbers one can recruit, having more durable ones seems more effective for me than having ones with perhaps better attacks.

[Jay203]

Fiend-blood lions are not summoned they where charmed using the rangers ability "Improved wild empathy"

I wasn't talking about only rangers, archers can come in weapon specialist fighters as well. not everyone has access to empathy or summoning


Yup and good luck getting a raging barb to solo those same elite quests you are talking about. Already said several times I would match my bows up against a barb any day solo and may even let the barb have a cleric for healing purposes only.

wasn't talking about soloing an elite quest. i'm just saying whatever you do solo'ing vale is NOT gonna be the same in an Elite quest, a beared devil or an Orthon on elite will shred the archer up in seconds.


Sorry but putting enhancements on many shot would make it over powered in my opinion even more so than improved crit rage is overpowering for barbarians rage ability. The "fix" most people seek for ranged combat lies elsewhere and most likely in a greater rate of fire. Any changes made to manyshot would either make it overpowered (turning it into a stance or allow it to last longer) or nerf it (turning it into a stance and increaseing the to-hit penalty).

while i do agree that greater rate of fire for ranged combat is needed, the cooldown on manyshot still needs adjusting. at the current rate, you usually only fire out about 3-4 shots on an enemy before they move up to you, and I'm sure EVERYONE knows how much crack the developers have been feeding to the mobs on elite >_> sure, you can probably kill a couple amonst that group you aggro'ed, but what about the other 5?
especially with the fact that 70~80% of the mobs now have cleave, greater cleave, or whirlwind, it'd be great to actually not have every non-casters surround them to eat their cleave >_>

[Puke]

Stop looking at the killboard and pay attention to the game. Yeah, using ranged combat you won't get as many kills as the barbarian, this does not mean ranged combat needs to be revisited. Try using a paralyzing bow - that slows the mobs down nice, or how about a cursespewing bow of shattermantle when the casters are going nuts with the PK's? Oh, right, if you don't get the kill then it isn't worth doing. I am glad there is a class that gets overlooked by people whose only play style is kill-count for speed zerging.
Nawww, have the Barbarian use a Paralyzer so that the archers can then pluck them all off. Just line up all the mobs in a circle around you and use Whirlwind attack and stop 'em all cold. Unless you are a kill counter.

You keep bringing up the abilities of Improved Precise Shot and how archers can just line up all the mobs. I would like you to provide examples of what quest and which battles you do this. Yeah, it can happens at times but it's not really all that much. My favorite place was always the Deurgar (sp?) at the end of BAM when they come out of those rooms next to the king. But if you do it it at higher levels, Chain Lightning takes care of them much quicker than Manyshot. But I guess ranging with a spell cast from your finger is ok.

It's funny how the people who actually play the ranged character have their experiences so easily dismissed by those who really don't play that character-type but who think they understand it because of something they saw or how they play it out in their mind (such as when someone thinks lining up mobs is so easy.) But because this community is all about kill counts, if Manyshot and ranging was so safe and so deadly, you'd see a preponderance of that character type running around the world and the LFMs would be specifically seeking more Rangers in their groups. But, eh, we all know it's just the reverse.

I'd like to see more slaying arrows drop, to be honest. Melees have their vorpals, casters their insta-death spells...the archer can certainly use more slaying arrows to drop. I'm not sure I've ever looted any at all if I have, it was very few. I've always had to pay for them off the auction house for a very over-priced amount... you vultures!

The best character for solo'ing quests is a caster. If solo'ing quests is some litmus test for being over-powered, casters may need to be revisited. Otherwise, don't complain if the archer can solo a quest (though it'll take 20-hours if he's constantly waiting for Manyshot to reset.)

[Jay203]

I'd like to see more slaying arrows drop, to be honest. Melees have their vorpals, casters their insta-death spells...the archer can certainly use more slaying arrows to drop. I'm not sure I've ever looted any at all if I have, it was very few. I've always had to pay for them off the auction house for a very over-priced amount... you vultures!

Sturdy slaying arrows? <3 ^___^;;;

[Puke]

Type as slow as you think for all I care, it doesn't help your failed argument. As others have spelled out for you above, slower, and using smaller words, having 3 minutes of a 10-20% DPS improvement is not better than 20 seconds of 300% DPS improvement (I put 400% above, but feel for consitency I should correct my math). Argue it untill you're blue in the face it won't make it true.
Comparing the amount of improvement is irrelevant if one's base DPS is so much less than another's. Also, the Barbarian's rage also helps his to-hit. Manyshot just brings the number of attacks up-to-speed with the melees. My Barbarian, before I deleted him, could rage FOREVER and he never suffered the effects afterward that I think you are supposed to suffer because he had a stash of potions.



At any rate since you don't have a level 16 ranger and have never used a BAB 16 manyshot, your input to the discussion of changes to manyshot is not very relevant.
I currently have three level 16 Rangers. My first character was a Ranger when this game was new. I have played probably at least ten Rangers in my time here. In fact, all I really play are Rangers to the chagrin of my friends and guildies. I have tried to make the archery style viable and entertaining to play but I have failed every time. In fact, my Deepwood Sniper Ranger is considered a bust by me and was deleted long ago.
Manyshot is very nice. It is very nice. But it does not make the Ranger over powered. And it's rare that mobs actually line up for you and stay in line.

You peruse these message boards. I have only ever seen one class ever mentioned by people as one in which they will never invite to group. I've never seen it be said for the Fighter, Paladin, Bard or others but it is common that many will not invite the Ranger to group because of the bad name the archery Rangers give to the Ranger. I would state that as a whole the community has figured out that archery is underpowered and is not something you look for to help your group in a quest. That, right there speaks volumes!

But I guess you know better. Keep thinking that.

[Milolyen]

You keep bringing up the abilities of Improved Precise Shot and how archers can just line up all the mobs. I would like you to provide examples of what quest and which battles you do this. Yeah, it can happens at times but it's not really all that much. My favorite place was always the Deurgar (sp?) at the end of BAM when they come out of those rooms next to the king. But if you do it it at higher levels, Chain Lightning takes care of them much quicker than Manyshot. But I guess ranging with a spell cast from your finger is ok.

It's funny how the people who actually play the ranged character have their experiences so easily dismissed by those who really don't play that character-type but who think they understand it because of something they saw or how they play it out in their mind (such as when someone thinks lining up mobs is so easy.) But because this community is all about kill counts, if Manyshot and ranging was so safe and so deadly, you'd see a preponderance of that character type running around the world and the LFMs would be specifically seeking more Rangers in their groups. But, eh, we all know it's just the reverse.

I DO have a lvl 16 ranger and DO find it easy to line up mobs for improved precise shot. With the exception of raids I would say my average shot includes 3 + mobs. However not everyone does find it easy to do that, not everyone has that skill because if they did then there would be more good rangers out there. I never have a problem getting a group and if I do ... I go solo something.


I'd like to see more slaying arrows drop, to be honest. Melees have their vorpals, casters their insta-death spells...the archer can certainly use more slaying arrows to drop. I'm not sure I've ever looted any at all if I have, it was very few. I've always had to pay for them off the auction house for a very over-priced amount... you vultures!

I usually have a lot of them given to me but only really keep the gnoll (really helps in the shroud part 4), Evil Outsiders, Lawfull Outsiders and giants. The others are not really worth the hassle IMO.


The best character for solo'ing quests is a caster. If solo'ing quests is some litmus test for being over-powered, casters may need to be revisited. Otherwise, don't complain if the archer can solo a quest (though it'll take 20-hours if he's constantly waiting for Manyshot to reset.)

Meh ... it depends on the quest as far as who is better at soloing. Like TBF ... no way I could keep up but then doubt I could see a mage keep up with me in Coal Chamber. There are a lot of quests out there that I can solo better than when I go in with full group so it doesn't take 20 hours to solo, again ... if you know what you are doing.

Milolyen

[Turial]

...Manyshot just brings the number of attacks up-to-speed with the melees....

Even with manyshot on the ROA for ranged attacks places bow based ranged combat 10% behind sword and board melee.

[Jay203]

Even with manyshot on the ROA for ranged attacks places bow based ranged combat 10% behind sword and board melee.

and how far behind are they against the TWF'ers?

[Turial]

I DO have a lvl 16 ranger and DO find it easy to line up mobs for improved precise shot. With the exception of raids I would say my average shot includes 3 + mobs...

Average shot is 3+ mobs? Maybe in dense mob quests but I do find it hard to believe that with melees assulting mobs you are able to get 3+ lined up on average. Solo work I would believe though.

I do agree with you Milolyen that manyshot is not the place to change ranged combat. My thoughts are it lies in the base ROA for bow based ranged combat (reapeaters are close to where they should be and thats fine). What is needed is to keep ROA with manyshot on the same as it is and to increase base ROA without manyshot by 50-60%.

[Turial]

and how far behind are they against the TWF'ers?

Ranged combat shouldn't ever compare to two weapon fighting on a pnp basis. But if ranged combat is 60% behind melee without manyshot on then they are about 110% behind two-weapon and 60% behind with manyshot (120% and 70% vs tempest rangers or two weapon with jorgunds collar).

[Puke]

I DO have a lvl 16 ranger and DO find it easy to line up mobs for improved precise shot. With the exception of raids I would say my average shot includes 3 + mobs. However not everyone does find it easy to do that, not everyone has that skill because if they did then there would be more good rangers out there. I never have a problem getting a group and if I do ... I go solo something.



I usually have a lot of them given to me but only really keep the gnoll (really helps in the shroud part 4), Evil Outsiders, Lawfull Outsiders and giants. The others are not really worth the hassle IMO.



Meh ... it depends on the quest as far as who is better at soloing. Like TBF ... no way I could keep up but then doubt I could see a mage keep up with me in Coal Chamber. There are a lot of quests out there that I can solo better than when I go in with full group so it doesn't take 20 hours to solo, again ... if you know what you are doing.

Milolyen

3 + mobs? Do you mean 3 or more monsters? Or maybe you mean three mobs during the course of an adventure?

I guess you are the best archer around. Especially if you are going to state you can solo better to complete a quest than if you go in with a full group. Now I think you are just letting your ego get in the way and I don't buy anything you say from here-on-out.

For the community as a whole, it has experienced that bringing an archer along to group is something to be avoided.

I don't know what server you are on but I'll look for your name on Khyber whenever I log in. Let's run something simple like Ritual Sacrafice and let's see how you do. I'd prefer elite so we'll need to join a full group...unless a full group will just weight you down upon which I'll just watch you and your magic.

[Milolyen]

I wasn't talking about only rangers, archers can come in weapon specialist fighters as well. not everyone has access to empathy or summoning

wasn't talking about soloing an elite quest. i'm just saying whatever you do solo'ing vale is NOT gonna be the same in an Elite quest, a beared devil or an Orthon on elite will shred the archer up in seconds.

while i do agree that greater rate of fire for ranged combat is needed, the cooldown on manyshot still needs adjusting. at the current rate, you usually only fire out about 3-4 shots on an enemy before they move up to you, and I'm sure EVERYONE knows how much crack the developers have been feeding to the mobs on elite >_> sure, you can probably kill a couple amonst that group you aggro'ed, but what about the other 5?
especially with the fact that 70~80% of the mobs now have cleave, greater cleave, or whirlwind, it'd be great to actually not have every non-casters surround them to eat their cleave >_>

Yes they do come in other forms however in my experience a ranged focus fighter is generally a gimped ranger. But we can go into that another time. I was just showing how a "ranged" ranger can deal with multiple porting mobs and not get torn up in seconds. Throw a melee in with 6 devils/orthons/bez's ... I doubt they would do much better than the ranged focus fighter.

Wanna talk about harder stuff? Okay how bout we talk about the red orthons in VoD ... those tough enough to talk about? Went in with 3 tanks, 4 of them pop at start. The 3 tanks each took one and I kited the 4th around and helped dmg the others. Not saying I did a GOOD amount of dmg to the others but I did keep the 4th on me AND took less dmg than ANY of the tanks (that IS the job of the off tanks is it not? Keep agroe from main force and try not to take to much dmg?). Then when we faced Suulo WITH 4 red named orthons I kited 2 of the reds and a couple of the devils around while the rest took out the other 2 red named. I still took less healing than the tanks while doing that as well. Still not good enough? Okay how bout when I accedentally did too much dmg with manyshot to Suulo and grabbed his agroe. I quickly equpied shield and the healing scepter (quickest way to get the shield on) and shield blocked ... had no problem surviving till the tank got agroe back. Or how bout kiting Suulo around while the party recovers from a near wipe. Was me, like 2 casters, one cleric and think a bard alive and we recovered.

I am meirly pointing out things I have done. You guys say ranged is so gimped, you guys say you can't make it work, My experience and what I can do is just the opposite. Again from my experiences it is balanced fairly well with melee. When fighting one on one with a mob you do do less dmg but you also take less dmg because of there ranged being just as bad (even though they are for different reasons) and the mob has to make it to you to do the good melee dmg.

Milolyen

[Zenako]

If the party works with the archer(s) and not against them, it is very easy to get multiple targets lined up every battle. It is just that the mindset of many players and how they choose to play ends up working against the mechanics that would enable this tactic to be very effective since it might take a few precious seconds to make it happen. Those are the same few precious seconds when those characters could be killing the mobs themselves, instead of someone else's characters killing the mobs. In much the same way many players do not play well with bards and their fascinate abilities, effectively nerfing that ability in many groups.

[Puke]

If the party works with the archer(s) and not against them, it is very easy to get multiple targets lined up every battle. It is just that the mindset of many players and how they choose to play ends up working against the mechanics that would enable this tactic to be very effective since it might take a few precious seconds to make it happen. Those are the same few precious seconds when those characters could be killing the mobs themselves, instead of someone else's characters killing the mobs. In much the same way many players do not play well with bards and their fascinate abilities, effectively nerfing them.

I agree. This doesn't help matters.

BTW, I love Bards! I wish there were more of them and I prefer one in my groups.

[Jay203]

Yes they do come in other forms however in my experience a ranged focus fighter is generally a gimped ranger. But we can go into that another time. I was just showing how a "ranged" ranger can deal with multiple porting mobs and not get torn up in seconds. Throw a melee in with 6 devils/orthons/bez's ... I doubt they would do much better than the ranged focus fighter.

Wanna talk about harder stuff? Okay how bout we talk about the red orthons in VoD ... those tough enough to talk about? Went in with 3 tanks, 4 of them pop at start. The 3 tanks each took one and I kited the 4th around and helped dmg the others. Not saying I did a GOOD amount of dmg to the others but I did keep the 4th on me AND took less dmg than ANY of the tanks (that IS the job of the off tanks is it not? Keep agroe from main force and try not to take to much dmg?). Then when we faced Suulo WITH 4 red named orthons I kited 2 of the reds and a couple of the devils around while the rest took out the other 2 red named. I still took less healing than the tanks while doing that as well. Still not good enough? Okay how bout when I accedentally did too much dmg with manyshot to Suulo and grabbed his agroe. I quickly equpied shield and the healing scepter (quickest way to get the shield on) and shield blocked ... had no problem surviving till the tank got agroe back. Or how bout kiting Suulo around while the party recovers from a near wipe. Was me, like 2 casters, one cleric and think a bard alive and we recovered.

I am meirly pointing out things I have done. You guys say ranged is so gimped, you guys say you can't make it work, My experience and what I can do is just the opposite. Again from my experiences it is balanced fairly well with melee. When fighting one on one with a mob you do do less dmg but you also take less dmg because of there ranged being just as bad (even though they are for different reasons) and the mob has to make it to you to do the good melee dmg.

Milolyen

yes yes, you're "1337" and all that, now try to think in other people's shoes >_>

[Issip]

Replying to some questions about lining up mobs, etc..

If you are in a group that doesn't mind the ranger getting aggro it's pretty easy to charge ahead into a room (especially if there is a hall leading into it) get everything's attention and retreat about 15 feet, then open up the multishot. The mobs will generally line up coming toward you and die before they reach you (even in lvl 18 quests - lvl 16 + elite). If they don't all line up and a few survive the multishot bout then I typically switch to sword and board. People often freak out when a ranger does this because most rangers kyte and most groups can't accept that. If the group is caster-heavy and no fighters then no one will ever mind the kyting, but when there are melee around I will swap to sword and board and stand still so they don't complain about having to chase the mobs around. You should also know what is in the room before you aggro everything - if you get a mob that casts greater command or something and you run in and **** everything off only to end up on the ground beaten to death it won't be terribly impressive.

This works fine in Rainbow, Ritual Sacrifice, some parts of Coalescence (the shafts prevent precise shot lineups, but the flat parts work fine). The spiders in Sleeping Dust that can't be killed take some thunder from that attack, but past the spiders as you fight your way into the last part of the basement it works great. In lower level quests and not on elite it's generally even easier as the mobs die quicker and can't damage you as easily.

My favorite spot is the entrance to ADQ (yes easy mobs but fun). Run straight up the stairs, aggro all the efreeti's and the flesh render, run them around in circles for a minute to gather them up, then run up the stairs toward Queen Lailat's locked gate, hit manyshot on your way up, reach the top, turn and fire. It's kinda like machine-gunning down a mob of starving peasants, they have no chance, and the numbers are insane (you can hit 25 mobs per shot x 4 arrows per shot x ~3 numbers per arrow so you put 300 numbers on the screen with every shot!). Manyshot only lasts 20 seconds, but those weak mobs only last 5 seconds.

The real trick, I think, is that you have to be in control of the mobs to line them up, if aggro is split among several people in the group and they aren't chasing you then lining them up is a pain. If you play your ranger well and have the confidence of the people you are playing with they won't bat an eye, if you pull a crapload of mobs back and wipe the party, they may replace you with a monk. It takes practice and some knowledge of the quests, but it sure is fun.

[Milolyen]

3 + mobs? Do you mean 3 or more monsters? Or maybe you mean three mobs during the course of an adventure?

I guess you are the best archer around. Especially if you are going to state you can solo better to complete a quest than if you go in with a full group. Now I think you are just letting your ego get in the way and I don't buy anything you say from here-on-out.

For the community as a whole, it has experienced that bringing an archer along to group is something to be avoided.

I don't know what server you are on but I'll look for your name on Khyber whenever I log in. Let's run something simple like Ritual Sacrafice and let's see how you do. I'd prefer elite so we'll need to join a full group...unless a full group will just weight you down upon which I'll just watch you and your magic.

yes 3 mobs = 3 monsters,

Soloed coal chamber normal and hard in a lot less time than it takes the average group. On a normal run through it I stayed with group till we got about half way to the shrine the first time. The mages where nearly out of mana, cleric was down to less than 1/4 mana and a couple tanks where dead. I asked if I should just finish it for them ... they said yes we only want the completion. I ran ahead ... they continued to fight there way in and ended up wipping just before they got to the shrine and by that time I was already starting the fall down with the first key. Couple mins later I picked up there stones and took them to the shrine and then continued. I was ready to finish it long before they got to the top.

I did not say I could solo all quests faster I said "There are a lot of quests I can solo faster than with a group". A lot of quests is FAR from all of the quests. And I have soloed ritual sacrifice on normal ... don't think I have tried hard yet. It is hard for me to find time to solo with my main when nothing but "for the fun of it" is involved because I enjoy running with my guildies and such. I am also working on lvling an intimitank WF. As far as list of quests goes I could solo faster it would depend on what your definition of completion time. For me it would have to be the time it takes to complete a quest from the moment you go "hmm think I will run xxxx quest" because when you solo that is when it starts. You go straight to quest and go through it. When you group you go "hmmm think I want to run xxxx quest" then /guild anyone want to run xxxx quest then put up lfm if you don't get enough with guild. Then wait for everyone to join and get ready. I have seen quests take 20 mins to run that would have taken me only 30 to 40 mins to solo but it took a good 40 mins to get everyone together.

Puke - Sorry I would love to show ya some time but I am on Argo.

Milolyen

[Puke]

Issip,

When you can line up a bunch of monsters, it is most certainly fun! It's a lot of red numbers popping up over the mob's heads. The trick though when reversing is that now you'll have the guy in the front targeted so you have to target the guy directly facing you before you start heading back the opposite direction.

The cool thing about the spiders in Dust is that Precise Shot is now your friend. With Improved Precise Shot you hit everything between your shot and your target but with just Precise Shot, you hit only that which you are targeting. This makes it easy to hit those Ogres without ever touching a spider. But shoot, that's really a caster's quest though.

Although, I do have to say that a 16th level Ranger in Demon Queen is not very fair and I have more been envisioning level-appropriate action.

[Puke]

yes 3 mobs = 3 monsters,

Soloed coal chamber normal and hard in a lot less time than it takes the average group. On a normal run through it I stayed with group till we got about half way to the shrine the first time. The mages where nearly out of mana, cleric was down to less than 1/4 mana and a couple tanks where dead. I asked if I should just finish it for them ... they said yes we only want the completion. I ran ahead ... they continued to fight there way in and ended up wipping just before they got to the shrine and by that time I was already starting the fall down with the first key. Couple mins later I picked up there stones and took them to the shrine and then continued. I was ready to finish it long before they got to the top.

I did not say I could solo all quests faster I said "There are a lot of quests I can solo faster than with a group". A lot of quests is FAR from all of the quests. And I have soloed ritual sacrifice on normal ... don't think I have tried hard yet. It is hard for me to find time to solo with my main when nothing but "for the fun of it" is involved because I enjoy running with my guildies and such. I am also working on lvling an intimitank WF. As far as list of quests goes I could solo faster it would depend on what your definition of completion time. For me it would have to be the time it takes to complete a quest from the moment you go "hmm think I will run xxxx quest" because when you solo that is when it starts. You go straight to quest and go through it. When you group you go "hmmm think I want to run xxxx quest" then /guild anyone want to run xxxx quest then put up lfm if you don't get enough with guild. Then wait for everyone to join and get ready. I have seen quests take 20 mins to run that would have taken me only 30 to 40 mins to solo but it took a good 40 mins to get everyone together.

Puke - Sorry I would love to show ya some time but I am on Argo.

Milolyen

Does anyone else want to group with this guy and see his magic? I wish I could. In fact, I wish I could take my Tempest in and wipe the floor with him in the kill count if he's going to stick with the bow.

Basically, Milolyen, you've lost all credibility with me. You are such a stud, I'm not worthy to even converse with you and so I will not, so you know.

[paintedman]

actually, teleporting mobs are easier for a ranged attacker to handle since they do not have to chase them around at all. Just target (turn if needed) and shoot, while those melee types are hopping all over the battlefield hoping to land blows from behind as they chase the dashing mobs...

In my experience, it is more difficult for two reasons, 1. cause I have a bow, the attacker gets a +4 to hit me, and second is more of annoyance, when the mob shuffles around to my flank as I am shooting my arrow. If they breach that 90 degree angle I lose the shot, which in the time it takes me to reload, they get another three attacks on me.

but that is what I notice.

as for chasing down a mob, I don't mind it so much as my ranger has shot on the run and a fast pair of boots.

-paint

[paintedman]

Type as slow as you think for all I care, it doesn't help your failed argument. As others have spelled out for you above, slower, and using smaller words, having 3 minutes of a 10-20% DPS improvement is not better than 20 seconds of 300% DPS improvement (I put 400% above, but feel for consitency I should correct my math). Argue it untill you're blue in the face it won't make it true.

As far as the number of mobs a barbarian can kill in 3 minutes you are getting completely off topic. I never said archers kill more mobs than barbarians, or kill them faster - that is irrelevant to the original topic which is manyshot is perhaps the most powerful single ability in the game. I never said that rangers should always use bows - I usually swap out of bow after manyshot - if mobs are after me I swap to sword and board for the 55 AC - hell even shield blocking while the melee scrape the last few mobs off of me works great, but a nice rapier is more fun. If there's an intimi-tank around I'll use twf to max DPS between manyshots. If the mobs have bad saves I may just use my paralyzing bow, etc.. The fact that manyshot is more powerful than rage doesn't mean you can't change weapons ever.

At any rate since you don't have a level 16 ranger and have never used a BAB 16 manyshot, your input to the discussion of changes to manyshot is not very relevant.

Please spell it out for me again, because I'm having a difficult time finding as many mobs to kill in the span of 20 seconds as a barbarian can hunt and find in three minutes, heck, it is welll known that a barbarian will in fact have a five second cool down before they chug a pot and re-rage. So now the barbarian has six minutes of rage to the rangers one minute of manyshot, in sections of 20 seconds.

As for the caculations for damage %, I find it difficult to understand as well, rage = more strength and higher crits (assume cookie cutter barb). Many shot = more attacks. Take into 3 mins worth of extra strength with 20% crit chance, I just don't see how you come up with your numbers.

-paint

[Issip]

Issip,

When you can line up a bunch of monsters, it is most certainly fun! It's a lot of red numbers popping up over the mob's heads. The trick though when reversing is that now you'll have the guy in the front targeted so you have to target the guy directly facing you before you start heading back the opposite direction.

The cool thing about the spiders in Dust is that Precise Shot is now your friend. With Improved Precise Shot you hit everything between your shot and your target but with just Precise Shot, you hit only that which you are targeting. This makes it easy to hit those Ogres without ever touching a spider. But shoot, that's really a caster's quest though.

Although, I do have to say that a 16th level Ranger in Demon Queen is not very fair and I have more been envisioning level-appropriate action.

Trying to target the guy in the back of the pack used to be a major pain, but with the change to imp precise shot allowing untargetted attacks it's a lot easier (point and shoot) - also making it easier is the auto-attack by holding right click that was recently added. Untarget, turn, and spray the area!

Yeah, level 16 and ADQ is a bad example of the effectiveness of manyshot, which is why I talked about the level 16 quests first, but as far as maximizing numbers on the screen and having fun, it's still my favorite. Sadly there are only a few lvl 16 quests in the game, and raids are really tricky because even though you can kill the non-named mobs easy enough, lining them up with 12 in the party is nearly impossible. It's funny to see the boss get pulled off of the barbarian who has already been whacking him for a minute or more because the manyshot overcomes the aggro meter though, not effective, but funny.

I definately like the toggle in imp precise shot for Sleeping Dust, a ranger with a paralyzer is very helpful in that quest.

[Milolyen]

Does anyone else want to group with this guy and see his magic? I wish I could. In fact, I wish I could take my Tempest in and wipe the floor with him in the kill count if he's going to stick with the bow.

Basically, Milolyen, you've lost all credibility with me. You are such a stud, I'm not worthy to even converse with you and so I will not, so you know.

Belive me or not I don't really care and have not meet very many twf's out there that can keep up with me ... and I very rarely pay attention to kill counts because it only regesters last hit not most dmg done over all.

Okay you are all correct ... manyshot is underpowered and needs to be amped up, ranged is not viable and needs to be amped up, ranged base char's are push overs and can't stand against an orthon/devil's assult, ranged char's are a liablilty to the group and should be avoided at all costs, .... did I miss anything?

For anyone that truely belives that is welcome to join me on Argo and I will show you otherwise or put me on ignore and don't bother grouping with me. I don't really care.


Milolyen

[cypan41]

You guys ever get the feeling the dev boards are just here to placate people? I mean bows are busted, they should be fixed. Yes most agree. People argue manyshot timers and such, but over all NO dev's even comment.
......

[Zenako]

You guys ever get the feeling the dev boards are just here to placate people? I mean bows are busted, they should be fixed. Yes most agree. People argue manyshot timers and such, but over all NO dev's even comment.
......

Actually .... NOT true at all. CODOG has posted extensively on ranged attacks.

[Coldin]

Actually .... NOT true at all. CODOG has posted extensively on ranged attacks.

Yeah, but he hasn't posted anything for some time now, so who really knows if ranged combat is being looked at right now.

[Puke]

Trying to target the guy in the back of the pack used to be a major pain, but with the change to imp precise shot allowing untargetted attacks it's a lot easier (point and shoot) - also making it easier is the auto-attack by holding right click that was recently added. Untarget, turn, and spray the area!

Yeah, level 16 and ADQ is a bad example of the effectiveness of manyshot, which is why I talked about the level 16 quests first, but as far as maximizing numbers on the screen and having fun, it's still my favorite. Sadly there are only a few lvl 16 quests in the game, and raids are really tricky because even though you can kill the non-named mobs easy enough, lining them up with 12 in the party is nearly impossible. It's funny to see the boss get pulled off of the barbarian who has already been whacking him for a minute or more because the manyshot overcomes the aggro meter though, not effective, but funny.

I definately like the toggle in imp precise shot for Sleeping Dust, a ranger with a paralyzer is very helpful in that quest.

Exactly! A paralyzer or a cursespewer is what I use in that quest. (I'm not a fan of that quest anyway and it seems people like to get a bunch of casters for it instead of bringing a Ranger.)

Anyway, my overall problem that I have with this entire discussion and what I try and grapple with is that some are throwing in Improved Precise Shot on top of Manyshot when there is a discussion of the merits of Manyshot vs your typical melee types. This is where I have some problems and maybe it is just me.

Unless a group is willing to fight on terms that enhances the Ranger's abilities, I have always found being able to Manyshot effectively with Improved Precise Shot to be quite rare in the overall scheme of combat throughout a quest. Yes, the potential is there and it seems some have better luck with this than others do, including myself. I guess kudos go out to you who are able to do this. But I do have to add that I've been playing two years and I concentrate on Rangers and I've not yet been able to making ranging work to where a group would think I am a viable substitute for a Barbarian or Paladin in party. I've also not personally seen any Ranger able to consistently pair Manyshot with Improved Precise Shot which is able to target many enemies in a conga line throughout an adventure. So I grapple with real world vs potential. More often than not, I have personally seen the archer (and let's face it, it's usually a Ranger) bite off more than he can chew when combining Manyshot with Improved Precise Shot and he gets a smackdown like no other.

It then gets along the lines of having to then compare that Barbarian with, I don't know, Whirlwind attack and stating he can intimidate all the mobs to encircle him and he can the berzerk the nuts off all the monsters. Maybe a poor example, but there are lots of paired abilities to the melee types and comparing two top-tier abilities of the Ranger to just the single melee speed of a fighter is troublesome for me. And the pairing of the Ranger's abilities are 2-minutes apart. I feel you also need to compare how often you can maintain your special abilities throughout a quest--that is, what percentage of the quest are you at full potential--and this should be a modifier when making a comparison. Maybe it is just me and I have the problem here.

If anyone is really good at making the Manyshot and Improved Precise Shot work regularly in a group throughout a quest, I joke not and would love to join group and see this in action. I'm on Khyber and welcome an invite in here or you can PM me and I'll be sure to check.

But without considering a conga line of monsters and Improved Precise Shot, Manyshot really only brings you on par with the melee types and no more. Once that effect is off, it's a long wait while being basically dead-weight to a party IF you wish to stick with the bow.

[Puke]

Belive me or not I don't really care and have not meet very many twf's out there that can keep up with me ... and I very rarely pay attention to kill counts because it only regesters last hit not most dmg done over all.

You contradict yourself.

First off, you have not met many TWF's that can keep up with your ranging? Are you serious?

Secondly, you then state that kill counts do not matter because it only registers the last hit and thus you rarely pay attention to the kill count.

So how in the world can you publicly argue that TWF and other characters cannot keep up with you? You wouldn't know if you don't look in the kill count.

Again, you are just letting your ego talk because for some reason you need to find some respect on here through falsehoods.

[Milolyen]

You contradict yourself.

First off, you have not met many TWF's that can keep up with your ranging? Are you serious?

Secondly, you then state that kill counts do not matter because it only registers the last hit and thus you rarely pay attention to the kill count.

So how in the world can you publicly argue that TWF and other characters cannot keep up with you? You wouldn't know if you don't look in the kill count.

Again, you are just letting your ego talk because for some reason you need to find some respect on here through falsehoods.

Ya because kill counts is the ONLY way to see if someone can keep up. :rolleyes:

How about the TWF chargeing into a mess of mobs and dieing leaveing me to clean up the mess? Or try and take on the same group of mobs I can easily handle by myself and forcing me to heal them? How about the TWF takeing one side of a quest and me takeing another side of the quest and me finishing my side faster without the need of heals? Other than raids it has been a VERY long time since my ranger has been in a group that wipes. Why? Because I live through it and take the rest of the people to shrines. *EDIT*Not to say my ranger does not die ... there are times when grouped with friends I go off on my own to have a bit of fun and end up dead but if the group is haveing trouble at any point I am all about getting the group through it. *end edit* I have a lvl 16 cleric (not the best of clerics but decent and have seen worse and some seem to think I am a pretty good cleric) and a lvl 16 fighter and have often wished after seeing 4 melees charge in and end up dead in the same situation my ranger has pulled other groups through. Blame those on the cleric or a bad fighter but have also seen other clerics and fighters let a group wipe for same reasons mine did but my ranger was able to handle it.

Oh but again you guys are correct. Add "because kill count is the only way to judge if someone can keep up with you and are contributing" to the list above.

And your right I am letting my ego talk and makeing things up as I go along ... sure thing.

Milolyen

P.S. Thought you where done talking to me anyways ... and as I said in the other post I could not care less if you belive me or not. Oh and for the previous post I made ... my main is Milolyen, and alts I mainly play are Dalerious (lvl 16 cleric) and Everfighting (currently lvl 7 fighter) on argo and now you can properly add me to ignore or send a tell if you doubt my claims.

[salmag]

Type as slow as you think for all I care, it doesn't help your failed argument. As others have spelled out for you above, slower, and using smaller words, having 3 minutes of a 10-20&#37; DPS improvement is not better than 20 seconds of 300% DPS improvement (I put 400% above, but feel for consitency I should correct my math). Argue it untill you're blue in the face it won't make it true.

As far as the number of mobs a barbarian can kill in 3 minutes you are getting completely off topic. I never said archers kill more mobs than barbarians, or kill them faster - that is irrelevant to the original topic which is manyshot is perhaps the most powerful single ability in the game. I never said that rangers should always use bows - I usually swap out of bow after manyshot - if mobs are after me I swap to sword and board for the 55 AC - hell even shield blocking while the melee scrape the last few mobs off of me works great, but a nice rapier is more fun. If there's an intimi-tank around I'll use twf to max DPS between manyshots. If the mobs have bad saves I may just use my paralyzing bow, etc.. The fact that manyshot is more powerful than rage doesn't mean you can't change weapons ever.

At any rate since you don't have a level 16 ranger and have never used a BAB 16 manyshot, your input to the discussion of changes to manyshot is not very relevant.

The main point of the OP was to make Manyshot more effective. You had stated that it doesn't need to be made more effective, most likely because you are SOOO uber. I stated that it does, because when compared to other aspects of the game it is UNDER-effective.

Once again, we are not talking about playstyles, switching out weapons, Improved Precise Shot (and how good it is inconjunction with Manyshot - or how good Power Attack works with Rage, or how Rage can stack with Rage, for that matter), etc. You are making the claim that Manyshot is more powerful than Rage. For 20 seconds, you may get more attacks, but not necessarily damage, with manyshot. Over 3 minutes (btw, 180 seconds), rage gives more attacks and more damage, steadily. MOST battles last more than 20 seconds, too. So again in comparison, 140 seconds (total time using manyshot before you can use it again) of manyshot is NOT more powerful than 180 seconds of Rage.

Even though this is irrelevant to the conversation, I DO, in fact, have 2 Rangers, a capped Deepwood Sniper, and a Arcane Archer, level 11. I am currently working on a ranger/monk hybrid (he's level 5 at the moment). I also, have a capped Bard (virtuoso - love fascinate), and a capped Wizard (love insta-kill spells)

[Issip]

Puke, I agree that bows aren't the best answer to everything, and using a bow 100% of the time is not preferred. Moreover bows are better for long range, slow killing rather than close up fast killing. The style most groups play sucks for rangers (either Zerg overpowered through trash mobs, or block the door and firewall them).

When I really feel like playing with a bow in a group I'll sometimes put an LFM up for casters/clerics/bards and run cursepewing of shattermantle so the casters can decimate everything. In a group like this you can kyte all you want and no-one will care, the mobs will die fast enough. Switch over to WoP for the manyshot and then go back to curse/shattermantle.

I personally think ranged attacks are adequate, given that you can stay out of the range of most mobs and should therefore not do as much damage or take as much damage as melee. Rangers are awesome overall - just send a few barbarians after the living spells in the subterraine, once they are all dead the ranger can go kill the living spells and pick up the stones.

The other flaw about the argument of rangers vs. barbarians is that barbarians are just assumed to have a cleric or two sticking out of their ass to heal them continuously. Rangers can heal themselves, evade, use a bow, twf, get high AC wearing a robe and survive on their own. Once again the play style of most groups doesn't take advantage of a ranger's abilities as everything is about speed 99.9% of the time, but that isn't the Dev's fault. I like the diversity (I have a barbarian as well, I have blast playing him) but most of what he does requires a healer and nothing he does can annihilate 15 mobs at 45 yards.

Once again my feleing is there is balance and diversity in the game, but no one wants that, they just want fastest kill, most kills, hurry to loot, rinse repeat - and the ranger falls on the side of patience, tactics, strategy, outsmarting the AI rather than clubbing it down.

[Puke]

and the ranger falls on the side of patience, tactics, strategy, outsmarting the AI rather than clubbing it down.

I agree.

[Zenako]

The main point of the OP was to make Manyshot more effective. You had stated that it doesn't need to be made more effective, most likely because you are SOOO uber. I stated that it does, because when compared to other aspects of the game it is UNDER-effective.

Once again, we are not talking about playstyles, switching out weapons, Improved Precise Shot (and how good it is inconjunction with Manyshot - or how good Power Attack works with Rage, or how Rage can stack with Rage, for that matter), etc. You are making the claim that Manyshot is more powerful than Rage. For 20 seconds, you may get more attacks, but not necessarily damage, with manyshot. Over 3 minutes (btw, 180 seconds), rage gives more attacks and more damage, steadily. MOST battles last more than 20 seconds, too. So again in comparison, 140 seconds (total time using manyshot before you can use it again) of manyshot is NOT more powerful than 180 seconds of Rage.

Even though this is irrelevant to the conversation, I DO, in fact, have 2 Rangers, a capped Deepwood Sniper, and a Arcane Archer, level 11. I am currently working on a ranger/monk hybrid (he's level 5 at the moment). I also, have a capped Bard (virtuoso - love fascinate), and a capped Wizard (love insta-kill spells)

But that is a huge part of the perception. Playstyles. Let us go for a moment into a fantasy land that is not DDO as most of us know it at the moment. Everything is pretty much the same, BUT, the world is set up so that it takes almost 4 game minutes to get from one fight to the next fight, so that a Barbarian's rage is ONLY good for that one short battle and then he stews in anger while the rage duration ebbs away while moving to the next fight (by which time the manyshot and smites have regened (all or somewhat so THOSE abilities are ready to go again). Not sure how many rages most Barbarians pack, but I would venture to guess with current numbers and the number of encounters between rest spots (often on the order of 20 combat locations) they would soon run out and the perception of barbarian DPS and effectiveness would diminish significantly. Well in the converse with quickly paced battles one on top of another with sometimes only a few seconds (if that) between battles (aka the current playstyle of many DDO players), short term boosts like rage/haste/etc have there impact enhanced significantly over timed ones.

[redoubt]

Fiend-blood lions are not summoned they where charmed using the rangers ability "Improved wild empathy"

Deepwoods Sniper is like cleave and great cleave it is only for the next attack not for multiple attacks. So while I find it helpfull it was not necessary.

Yup and good luck getting a raging barb to solo those same elite quests you are talking about. Already said several times I would match my bows up against a barb any day solo and may even let the barb have a cleric for healing purposes only.

Sorry but putting enhancements on many shot would make it over powered in my opinion even more so than improved crit rage is overpowering for barbarians rage ability. The "fix" most people seek for ranged combat lies elsewhere and most likely in a greater rate of fire. Any changes made to manyshot would either make it overpowered (turning it into a stance or allow it to last longer) or nerf it (turning it into a stance and increaseing the to-hit penalty).



Jay asked what about if I didn't have the almighty W/P and also said the teleporting mobs will "kill the archer in seconds" I told him about experiences I had where I killed multiple teleporting mobs without using a W/P bow.

As far as the rage verse many shot debate you are talking about ... I already answered that and IMO manyshot comes out on top and that is without any other factors (ON BOTH SIDES) see my earlier post where I quoted you and Issip (about 10 up from this one).

so you can understand
You can't take out things that complement the manyshot ability without taking out the things that complement rage as well and call it a fair comparison.

With you saying rage lasts 3 mins I will assume you are talking about lvl 16 so I will talk about lvl 16 manyshot. For 20 seconds out of 120 seconds you quadruple your number of attacks, with rage you gain +4 str, +2 con, + to will save (don't remember how much) so net gain to dps is + 2 dmg on every hit that connects. Which ability is more powerfull? Hard to say till you start takeing in other factors but personally I like the ability to take the mobs down quick that manyshot gives.

Now if you want to include all the enhancements rage gets you will need to include the things that complement manyshot as well ... your call on that one.

Milolyen

Rage already has an enhancement line. So I think it is fair game to compare it. If manyshot out does rage with its enhancements then it would not need its own enhancements. If manyshot does not out do rage with the rage enhancements, then there is room to add them... Hows that?

[redoubt]

Type as slow as you think for all I care, it doesn't help your failed argument. As others have spelled out for you above, slower, and using smaller words, having 3 minutes of a 10-20% DPS improvement is not better than 20 seconds of 300% DPS improvement (I put 400% above, but feel for consitency I should correct my math). Argue it untill you're blue in the face it won't make it true.

As far as the number of mobs a barbarian can kill in 3 minutes you are getting completely off topic. I never said archers kill more mobs than barbarians, or kill them faster - that is irrelevant to the original topic which is manyshot is perhaps the most powerful single ability in the game. I never said that rangers should always use bows - I usually swap out of bow after manyshot - if mobs are after me I swap to sword and board for the 55 AC - hell even shield blocking while the melee scrape the last few mobs off of me works great, but a nice rapier is more fun. If there's an intimi-tank around I'll use twf to max DPS between manyshots. If the mobs have bad saves I may just use my paralyzing bow, etc.. The fact that manyshot is more powerful than rage doesn't mean you can't change weapons ever.

At any rate since you don't have a level 16 ranger and have never used a BAB 16 manyshot, your input to the discussion of changes to manyshot is not very relevant.

Issip, please bear in mind that I am not the guy you were replying to above. I just have some questions about what you said here.

1. How does the 10-20% damage boost on top of a full round of melee attacks compare to the 300% boost on the full round of ranged attacks? It seems to me that many people attempt to say that suddenly the bow user is doing 4x the damage of a barbarian. I believe that to be a falsehood.

2. Why do people only point out the bonus to damage that a barb gets from rage and never the bonus to-hit? In addition to the additional damage per hit a raged barb will hit more often. That will also increase the damage.

3. What is the average damage of a non-crit by a thf barb? What is the average damage of a single arrow? A maul is 1d10. A longbow is 1d8. (shortbow is worse at 1d6, greataxe is 1d12 I believe.)

4. When you compare the damage per swing/arrow times the attacks per round who is doing more damage? Don't forget to count the massive boost the barb gets to damage from the insane strength so many of them have. Once you have done this, then you can look at how much extra you get from manyshot. And see how it holds up by comparision.

Basically, because ranged rate of fire is so poor by comparision with melee, most of us look to manyshot as the the fix. If ranged rate of fire was increased I would not be nearly as worried about improving manyshot.

[Milolyen]

Rage already has an enhancement line. So I think it is fair game to compare it. If manyshot out does rage with its enhancements then it would not need its own enhancements. If manyshot does not out do rage with the rage enhancements, then there is room to add them... Hows that?

Well considering he is focused on compairing ONLY manyshot (and ignoring improved precise shot and other abilities that complement it) to rage then for a fair comparision is to compair it to rage without all its enhancments.

manyshot over 6 mins =
20 seconds of 4 attacks
100 seconds of 1 attack
20 seconds of 4 attacks
100 seconds of 1 attack
20 seconds of 4 attacks
100 seconds of 1 attack

rage over 6 mins = 2 rages burned (3 min rages)
3 mins of +2 dmg applied before crits (that is all a single none enhanced rage is in terms of dps)
5 seconds of fetigue (need lesser restore pot)
3 mins of +2 dmg applied before crits

To introduce any other variables is to introduce things that complement that ability and there for you must introduce ALL of the complaments ... but if you want to compair rage to multishot in terms of just THAT ability ... there is your compairison.

Milolyen

[redoubt]

Replying to some questions about lining up mobs, etc..

If you are in a group that doesn't mind the ranger getting aggro it's pretty easy to charge ahead into a room (especially if there is a hall leading into it) get everything's attention and retreat about 15 feet, then open up the multishot. The mobs will generally line up coming toward you and die before they reach you (even in lvl 18 quests - lvl 16 + elite). If they don't all line up and a few survive the multishot bout then I typically switch to sword and board. People often freak out when a ranger does this because most rangers kyte and most groups can't accept that. If the group is caster-heavy and no fighters then no one will ever mind the kyting, but when there are melee around I will swap to sword and board and stand still so they don't complain about having to chase the mobs around. You should also know what is in the room before you aggro everything - if you get a mob that casts greater command or something and you run in and **** everything off only to end up on the ground beaten to death it won't be terribly impressive.

This works fine in Rainbow, Ritual Sacrifice, some parts of Coalescence (the shafts prevent precise shot lineups, but the flat parts work fine). The spiders in Sleeping Dust that can't be killed take some thunder from that attack, but past the spiders as you fight your way into the last part of the basement it works great. In lower level quests and not on elite it's generally even easier as the mobs die quicker and can't damage you as easily.

My favorite spot is the entrance to ADQ (yes easy mobs but fun). Run straight up the stairs, aggro all the efreeti's and the flesh render, run them around in circles for a minute to gather them up, then run up the stairs toward Queen Lailat's locked gate, hit manyshot on your way up, reach the top, turn and fire. It's kinda like machine-gunning down a mob of starving peasants, they have no chance, and the numbers are insane (you can hit 25 mobs per shot x 4 arrows per shot x ~3 numbers per arrow so you put 300 numbers on the screen with every shot!). Manyshot only lasts 20 seconds, but those weak mobs only last 5 seconds.

The real trick, I think, is that you have to be in control of the mobs to line them up, if aggro is split among several people in the group and they aren't chasing you then lining them up is a pain. If you play your ranger well and have the confidence of the people you are playing with they won't bat an eye, if you pull a crapload of mobs back and wipe the party, they may replace you with a monk. It takes practice and some knowledge of the quests, but it sure is fun.

I mean no offense, but this seems like a solo only option...

[Aesop]

Well considering he is focused on compairing ONLY manyshot (and ignoring improved precise shot and other abilities that complement it) to rage then for a fair comparision is to compair it to rage without all its enhancments.

manyshot over 6 mins =
20 seconds of 4 attacks
100 seconds of 1 attack
20 seconds of 4 attacks
100 seconds of 1 attack
20 seconds of 4 attacks
100 seconds of 1 attack

rage over 6 mins = 2 rages burned (3 min rages)
3 mins of +2 dmg applied before crits (that is all a single none enhanced rage is in terms of dps)
5 seconds of fetigue (need lesser restore pot)
3 mins of +2 dmg applied before crits

To introduce any other variables is to introduce things that complement that ability and there for you must introduce ALL of the complaments ... but if you want to compair rage to multishot in terms of just THAT ability ... there is your compairison.

Milolyen

you forgot a few things that rage does...

like the extra Will Saves and the Extra to hit

I will also disagree about a need for a change to manyshot... infact I've done the whole spew of what should be done with ranged combat a few dozen times ... and I say dozen with no exageration

I suppose I could do it again if ya want.

however I don't really see the point of comparing Rage and Manyshot

one is a defining feature of a class the other is a Feat selectable by anyone that meets the prerequisites

Aesop

[Issip]

The main point of the OP was to make Manyshot more effective. You had stated that it doesn't need to be made more effective, most likely because you are SOOO uber. I stated that it does, because when compared to other aspects of the game it is UNDER-effective.

Once again, we are not talking about playstyles, switching out weapons, Improved Precise Shot (and how good it is inconjunction with Manyshot - or how good Power Attack works with Rage, or how Rage can stack with Rage, for that matter), etc. You are making the claim that Manyshot is more powerful than Rage. For 20 seconds, you may get more attacks, but not necessarily damage, with manyshot. Over 3 minutes (btw, 180 seconds), rage gives more attacks and more damage, steadily. MOST battles last more than 20 seconds, too. So again in comparison, 140 seconds (total time using manyshot before you can use it again) of manyshot is NOT more powerful than 180 seconds of Rage.

Even though this is irrelevant to the conversation, I DO, in fact, have 2 Rangers, a capped Deepwood Sniper, and a Arcane Archer, level 11. I am currently working on a ranger/monk hybrid (he's level 5 at the moment). I also, have a capped Bard (virtuoso - love fascinate), and a capped Wizard (love insta-kill spells)

OK, let's make a fair comparison then. Remove clerics and other group members so we can directly compare rage to manyshot. It's fair for the Barbarian to have as many healing pots as he wants, and the ranger can have a wand of cure serious. Now we wanted to compare lvl 16 elite mobs. Let's let the ranger play as long as the barbarian can use rages (rages run out of charges so ~20 minutes +/-). Now the Uber barbarian will kick the **** out of the first 5 mobs, then go into a drinking fit, having to replace 400 hp or so to go on. The ranger will have ms'd the first 10 mobs and be slowly working on more while the barb continues to drink. Maybe he can drink enough to take out a couple more mobs while still raged (OMG I hope he doesn't get any debuffs because he can't drink a lesser restore pot, or a poison nuet pot, we'll just ignore that). The barbarian is ready to fight again about the time the ms cooldown is over for the ranger, so the ranger bags 10 more and the barbarian bags 5 more and starts drinking again, repeat.

So, yes, a barbarian can outdamage a ranger if both are being healed, but alone the ranger wins, period. Do the same thing without rage or manyshot and the barbarian wins. Since the ability "Conjure Cleric" isn't in question, and we are just comparing rage to manyshot, rage looses, manyshot wins, end of story.

You are arguing that while being healed a Barbarian with rage can out-damage a ranger using a bow and ms in the long run - I never argued agaist that, I argued that manyshot is more powerful than rage, and it is. In a group a barbarian will get more kills than a bow-using ranger, he will do more DPS and the group will get to the loot faster but that doesn't mean rage is more powerful than manyshot, it just means that barbarians are better speed-run zerging toons so long as there is a healer.

So, the desire is to adjust manyshot so rangers can kill as fast as barbarians - you do this and you've ruined the game as there is no point melee when you can do the same damage from a distance without taking any damage yourself. I like the diversity, I like the power manyshot gives when a ranger needs the boost, and I don't think rangers need to be running around killing all the mobs before they can even get to the group. Manyshot is fine and needs no adjustment, if you can't use it to your advantage then go back to playing barbarian - much less thinking required, just swing away and let the healer take care of the rest.

[redoubt]

Well considering he is focused on compairing ONLY manyshot (and ignoring improved precise shot and other abilities that complement it) to rage then for a fair comparision is to compair it to rage without all its enhancments.

manyshot over 6 mins =
20 seconds of 4 attacks
100 seconds of 1 attack
20 seconds of 4 attacks
100 seconds of 1 attack
20 seconds of 4 attacks
100 seconds of 1 attack

rage over 6 mins = 2 rages burned (3 min rages)
3 mins of +2 dmg applied before crits (that is all a single none enhanced rage is in terms of dps)
5 seconds of fetigue (need lesser restore pot)
3 mins of +2 dmg applied before crits

To introduce any other variables is to introduce things that complement that ability and there for you must introduce ALL of the complaments ... but if you want to compair rage to multishot in terms of just THAT ability ... there is your compairison.

Milolyen

Don't forget +2 to hit then, even without rage enhancements.

Next, precise shot and improved precise shot are additional feats. Rage has enhancements, not addtional feats. Turbine has made them different things (feats and enhancements.) Your argument says that manyshot is better than un-enhanced rage and therefore does not need improvement. I say that manyshot cannot compete with the enhanced rage... heck, I dont' think manyshot can keep up with melee (weapons all being equal.)

I guess we may just end up disagreeing on this one... :(

[redoubt]

OK, let's make a fair comparison then. Remove clerics and other group members so we can directly compare rage to manyshot. It's fair for the Barbarian to have as many healing pots as he wants, and the ranger can have a wand of cure serious. Now we wanted to compare lvl 16 elite mobs. Let's let the ranger play as long as the barbarian can use rages (rages run out of charges so ~20 minutes +/-). Now the Uber barbarian will kick the **** out of the first 5 mobs, then go into a drinking fit, having to replace 400 hp or so to go on. The ranger will have ms'd the first 10 mobs and be slowly working on more while the barb continues to drink. Maybe he can drink enough to take out a couple more mobs while still raged (OMG I hope he doesn't get any debuffs because he can't drink a lesser restore pot, or a poison nuet pot, we'll just ignore that). The barbarian is ready to fight again about the time the ms cooldown is over for the ranger, so the ranger bags 10 more and the barbarian bags 5 more and starts drinking again, repeat.

So, yes, a barbarian can outdamage a ranger if both are being healed, but alone the ranger wins, period. Do the same thing without rage or manyshot and the barbarian wins. Since the ability "**** Cleric" isn't in question, and we are just comparing rage to manyshot, rage looses, manyshot wins, end of story.

You are arguing that while being healed a Barbarian with rage can out-damage a ranger using a bow and ms in the long run - I never argued agaist that, I argued that manyshot is more powerful than rage, and it is. In a group a barbarian will get more kills than a bow-using ranger, he will do more DPS and the group will get to the loot faster but that doesn't mean rage is more powerful than manyshot, it just means that barbarians are better speed-run zerging toons so long as there is a healer.

So, the desire is to adjust manyshot so rangers can kill as fast as barbarians - you do this and you've ruined the game as there is no point melee when you can do the same damage from a distance without taking any damage yourself. I like the diversity, I like the power manyshot gives when a ranger needs the boost, and I don't think rangers need to be running around killing all the mobs before they can even get to the group. Manyshot is fine and needs no adjustment, if you can't use it to your advantage then go back to playing barbarian - much less thinking required, just swing away and let the healer take care of the rest.


What about archers who are not rangers?

[Milolyen]

you forgot a few things that rage does...

like the extra Will Saves and the Extra to hit

I will also disagree about a need for a change to manyshot... infact I've done the whole spew of what should be done with ranged combat a few dozen times ... and I say dozen with no exageration

I suppose I could do it again if ya want.

however I don't really see the point of comparing Rage and Manyshot

one is a defining feature of a class the other is a Feat selectable by anyone that meets the prerequisites

Aesop

No I did point them out earlier in the thread.

Yup I think many shot is fine and anything done to change it will prolly put it out of balance. No you don't need to post them again ... I know I have read them several times myself.

The arguement got brought up earlier by someone claiming that Manyshot is, either, probably the most powerfull feat, or, is the most powerfull feat (don't care to go back and look). The other guy (who must have me on ignore or something because he has not addressed any of my counter points to his arguement to this point *shrug*) is trying to argue that rage is more powerfull than manyshot and wants to exclude improved precise shot and other abilities that complement and make manyshot more powerfull. But I don't think he is taken into account that rage is only that powerfull due to all of its enhancements and that alone +4 str, +2 con, bonus to will save with takeing the -2 ac is not that great and more of a preference I think.

[Milolyen]

Don't forget +2 to hit then, even without rage enhancements.

Next, precise shot and improved precise shot are additional feats. Rage has enhancements, not addtional feats. Turbine has made them different things (feats and enhancements.) Your argument says that manyshot is better than un-enhanced rage and therefore does not need improvement. I say that manyshot cannot compete with the enhanced rage... heck, I dont' think manyshot can keep up with melee (weapons all being equal.)

I guess we may just end up disagreeing on this one... :(

but arguement was about which is a more powerfull feat and the enhancements boost that feat. IMO to make a fair comparison between JUST those 2 feats you need to compare exactly that ... just those 2 feats. And yes that +4 to str will give +2 to hit as well.

I was not necessarly argueing that manyshot IS a better feat I feel it is subjective and said personally I prefer manyshot as a feat over rage. But don't like unfair comparisons. IMO if you are going ranged focus (ranger or not) you should have manyshot, precise shot, and improved precise shot. Just like I am sure many many barbarians (okay actually everyone) swear by the enhancement line that goes with rage if you go barbarian. So to compair manyshot without improved precise shot is like compairing rage without the enhancement line.

Milolyen

[redoubt]

but arguement was about which is a more powerfull feat and the enhancements boost that feat. IMO to make a fair comparison between JUST those 2 feats you need to compare exactly that ... just those 2 feats. And yes that +4 to str will give +2 to hit as well.

I was not necessarly argueing that manyshot IS a better feat I feel it is subjective and said personally I prefer manyshot as a feat over rage. But don't like unfair comparisons. IMO if you are going ranged focus (ranger or not) you should have manyshot, precise shot, and improved precise shot. Just like I am sure many many barbarians (okay actually everyone) swear by the enhancement line that goes with rage if you go barbarian. So to compair manyshot without improved precise shot is like compairing rage without the enhancement line.

Milolyen

I think of it like toughness. How many people take toughness without being either a race or a class that can put enhancements on that feat. The feat itself is not very good. It is the enhancements that make it good.

But at this point I will step back and go with what Aesop is saying. Fix ranged rate fo fire and then this discussion falls not just to the back burner, but likely completely off the stove. ;)

[redoubt]

So I've read several threads debating on different mechanisms to allow manyshot to be more powerful.

Some like shorter cooldowns, some like longer active times, and some prefer an active stance with to-hit penalties.

As it stands, I don't believe the development team has any changes planned for this feat just yet.

Would adding an enhancement line to extend the active time for manyshot (similar to the extend rage enhancements) be an attractive option provided none of the other ideas were acceptable for game design?

I just wanted to quote the OP again for reference. Please note that right here is the first reference comparing the rage enhancements to potential enhancements to manyshot. ;)

[salmag]

Well considering he is focused on compairing ONLY manyshot (and ignoring improved precise shot and other abilities that complement it) to rage then for a fair comparision is to compair it to rage without all its enhancments.

manyshot over 6 mins =
20 seconds of 4 attacks
100 seconds of 1 attack
20 seconds of 4 attacks
100 seconds of 1 attack
20 seconds of 4 attacks
100 seconds of 1 attack

rage over 6 mins = 2 rages burned (3 min rages)
3 mins of +2 dmg applied before crits (that is all a single none enhanced rage is in terms of dps)
5 seconds of fetigue (need lesser restore pot)
3 mins of +2 dmg applied before crits

To introduce any other variables is to introduce things that complement that ability and there for you must introduce ALL of the complaments ... but if you want to compair rage to multishot in terms of just THAT ability ... there is your compairison.

Milolyen

OK to address this:

Manyshot gives more attacks, correct?
So, an archer gets 4 attacks/round/20 seconds, then 1 attack/round/120 seconds while manyshot is active.
Since 1 round = 6 seconds, then an archer (level 16) gets 12 attacks for the first 20 seconds then 7 for the next 40 seconds. This equates to 19 attacks over a minute. I am at work at the moment so I can not test this out.

Melee, at 16 (note: just melee, not addressing rage yet) gets 4 attacks/round.
So, over a 1 minute timespan, gets 40 attacks. Once again I am at work so I can not test this out.

I am sure you can agree that ranged attacks do NOT progress at the same rate as melee.
So, even if the numbers aren't exact, that's over twice as many attacks per minute that melee gets over archery WITH manyshot. If you want, cut it back to 1 1/2 times as many, okay.

Manyshot does NOT increase damage nor does it offer a bonus to hit. Only number of attacks, correct?
So, one can say that an archer is at the mercy of his ammunition, and this is not a limitless supply. Manyshot only depletes that ammunition faster.

Rage, not including enhancements, gives bonuses to strength, as well as other benefits - but strength is important for this discussion. This increase in strength adds to damage, and to hit. Also, swinging a weapon does not run the chance of running out of ammunition.

I am not including enhancements, other feats, or anything else for that matter.

A melee with rage will get more attack chances with increased bonuses to hit AND to damage over a longer period of time, than an archer with manyshot. This is what makes rage more powerful then manyshot.

[salmag]

OK, let's make a fair comparison then. Remove clerics and other group members so we can directly compare rage to manyshot. It's fair for the Barbarian to have as many healing pots as he wants, and the ranger can have a wand of cure serious. Now we wanted to compare lvl 16 elite mobs. Let's let the ranger play as long as the barbarian can use rages (rages run out of charges so ~20 minutes +/-). Now the Uber barbarian will kick the **** out of the first 5 mobs, then go into a drinking fit, having to replace 400 hp or so to go on. The ranger will have ms'd the first 10 mobs and be slowly working on more while the barb continues to drink. Maybe he can drink enough to take out a couple more mobs while still raged (OMG I hope he doesn't get any debuffs because he can't drink a lesser restore pot, or a poison nuet pot, we'll just ignore that). The barbarian is ready to fight again about the time the ms cooldown is over for the ranger, so the ranger bags 10 more and the barbarian bags 5 more and starts drinking again, repeat.

Please be honest. If not with me then at least with yourself. If we are talking level 16 elite mobs, the ranger with manyshot active will probably take down 3, maybe 4 tops, before the rest of the mob is on top of him, and he would have to switch to melee. Then he would have to burn through his SP healing himself as he retreats, or switch to the wand to heal himself, effectively taking him away from his fighting. If you keep it real, your comparison still takes away from manyshot and forces the ranger to switch to melee. Oh, sorry, I forgot, you are UBER, and never die.


So, yes, a barbarian can outdamage a ranger if both are being healed, but alone the ranger wins, period. Do the same thing without rage or manyshot and the barbarian wins. Since the ability "Conjure Cleric" isn't in question, and we are just comparing rage to manyshot, rage looses, manyshot wins, end of story.

I would love for them to implement "conjure cleric." Even my ranger can use them.


You are arguing that while being healed a Barbarian with rage can out-damage a ranger using a bow and ms in the long run - I never argued agaist that, I argued that manyshot is more powerful than rage, and it is. In a group a barbarian will get more kills than a bow-using ranger, he will do more DPS and the group will get to the loot faster but that doesn't mean rage is more powerful than manyshot, it just means that barbarians are better speed-run zerging toons so long as there is a healer.

I am not arguing that at all. I am arguing that manyshot is not as effective as rage or other abilities in this game. You would know that if you read the rest of my post earlier, but you chose not to. I am not referring to playstyle, or being a ranger, or being a barbarian. I am arguing archery with manyshot versus melee with rage.


[So, the desire is to adjust manyshot so rangers can kill as fast as barbarians - you do this and you've ruined the game as there is no point melee when you can do the same damage from a distance without taking any damage yourself. I like the diversity, I like the power manyshot gives when a ranger needs the boost, and I don't think rangers need to be running around killing all the mobs before they can even get to the group. Manyshot is fine and needs no adjustment, if you can't use it to your advantage then go back to playing barbarian - much less thinking required, just swing away and let the healer take care of the rest.

I could care less if rangers out kill ANYONE in this game. This game is NOT about kill counts, but for the party to finish the quest as a group. I would like to see manyshot become more effective. So fix it to work like PnP, or give it an enhancement line, or lower the cooldown, or whatever. Manyshot does need an adjustment. Especially since it is a FEAT and not an enhancement.

Oh and when I am in a party with my ranger; he does what the party needs him to do. If it is range attacks to pull the mobs closer, or TWF, or paralyze mobs, or heal barbarians. I do what the party needs to solve the quest.

[salmag]

No I did point them out earlier in the thread.

Yup I think many shot is fine and anything done to change it will prolly put it out of balance. No you don't need to post them again ... I know I have read them several times myself.

The arguement got brought up earlier by someone claiming that Manyshot is, either, probably the most powerfull feat, or, is the most powerfull feat (don't care to go back and look). The other guy (who must have me on ignore or something because he has not addressed any of my counter points to his arguement to this point *shrug*) is trying to argue that rage is more powerfull than manyshot and wants to exclude improved precise shot and other abilities that complement and make manyshot more powerfull. But I don't think he is taken into account that rage is only that powerfull due to all of its enhancements and that alone +4 str, +2 con, bonus to will save with takeing the -2 ac is not that great and more of a preference I think.

No I am not ignoring you. Please see my post above as to why I feel Rage is more powerful.
The only thing manyshot does is increase the number of attacks for 20 seconds. Even with that feat it does not come close to the number melee attacks. Rage amplifies and helps those melee attacks. Manyshot does not have anything to help amplify it. So, yes, Rage is more powerful then manyshot. I was not including the enhancements which make it even better.

[Puke]

For fun I just hopped online and checked my rate-of-fire on a 16th level Ranger.

I set the timer to 20-seconds and began firing and I counted 18 shots.

I then set the timer to 20-seconds again and downed a Haste potion and got 20 shots in 20-seconds.

Hasted is easier to deal with in extrapolating. Basically, it would equate to about 80 shots with Manyshot for the first twenty seconds for a 16th level Ranger followed by another 100 shots the next one-hundred seconds for a grand total of 180 shots in two-minutes. That rates to about 1.5 shots (attacks) per second overall when Hasted.

I then tried to time my melee attacks both single-handed and dual wielding and said 'to heck with this' because of all the wild animations. I didn't do it while attacking any monsters, just firing and swinging at a wall in the tavern. Melee animation may vary, but I'm certain ranging animation is spot-on with the rate of fire.

Because a player may not be able to click Manyshot the second it is rejuvenated, you would have to adjust this downward. But you can adjust this then upward if you want to consider Improved Precise Shot to whatever average number of conga-line monsters you think you can average through an adventure.

I have no clue how this equates to melee and make no statements to that effect. I am just showing the number I produced from my highly scientific run-through of rate-of-fire for others to review.

[Turial]

Sword and board melee gets about 96 attacks per min.
Ranged gets about 53 per min, Manyshot over 20 seconds gives you 53 attacks.

In a 2 min period S&B melee gets about 192 attacks.
Ranged with manyshot gets about 159.

Rage looks more powerful because melee gets more attacks to begin with. Most ranged combatants have a number of levels of ranger and favored enemy puts rage to shame. If you are a capped ranged combat user and you arent shooting at your favored enemy 90% of the time you need to change your enemies around a bit.

Now if you only have a few levels of ranger (on a ranged combatant build) thats another story. You likely went barb at which its a moot point or you went fighter and the weapon spec feats should cover the bases.


OK to address this:

Manyshot gives more attacks, correct?
So, an archer gets 4 attacks/round/20 seconds, then 1 attack/round/120 seconds while manyshot is active.
Since 1 round = 6 seconds, then an archer (level 16) gets 12 attacks for the first 20 seconds then 7 for the next 40 seconds. This equates to 19 attacks over a minute. I am at work at the moment so I can not test this out.

Melee, at 16 (note: just melee, not addressing rage yet) gets 4 attacks/round.
So, over a 1 minute timespan, gets 40 attacks. Once again I am at work so I can not test this out.

I am sure you can agree that ranged attacks do NOT progress at the same rate as melee.
So, even if the numbers aren't exact, that's over twice as many attacks per minute that melee gets over archery WITH manyshot. If you want, cut it back to 1 1/2 times as many, okay.

Manyshot does NOT increase damage nor does it offer a bonus to hit. Only number of attacks, correct?
So, one can say that an archer is at the mercy of his ammunition, and this is not a limitless supply. Manyshot only depletes that ammunition faster.

Rage, not including enhancements, gives bonuses to strength, as well as other benefits - but strength is important for this discussion. This increase in strength adds to damage, and to hit. Also, swinging a weapon does not run the chance of running out of ammunition.

I am not including enhancements, other feats, or anything else for that matter.

A melee with rage will get more attack chances with increased bonuses to hit AND to damage over a longer period of time, than an archer with manyshot. This is what makes rage more powerful then manyshot.