Looking back on Fighters

[vyvy3369]

With another module coming out, I got to thinking about how my Fighter hasn't really changed much in a very long time. Thankfully I kept some notes, and here's what I noticed. As some background, he's a Dwarven pure Fighter from back before tactics enhancements even came out. I don't really have stats from the original enhancements, but by level 12 and Update #7 I pretty much had everything you could ask for on a Fighter (+5 MFP that I'm actually still wearing, all the rare weapon types, best stat items available at the time, a couple +2 tomes, etc.).

Pre-Update #7 (3/12/2007):

AC was somewhere around 49 unbuffed
HPs were 200 (which was on the high end back then since it was enough to survive a failed disintegrate)
Saves haven't really changed at all except by virtue of gaining more levels and slightly higher stats
Tactical DCs were Stun DC40, Trip DC45


Post-Update #7 (new enhancement system on 3/12/2007):

AC was somewhere around 49 unbuffed
HPs were up to 212
Saves didn't really change
Tactical DCs were Stun DC36, Trip DC39
Pretty much everything else stayed the same


Pre-Shroud:

AC was around 50 unbuffed (used a better dex tome)
HPs were somewhere around 400 (thanks to the Toughness enhancements and levels)
Saves hadn't really changed much
Tactical DCs were 1 higher due to higher Strength
Pretty much everything else stayed the same


Post-Shroud:

AC is up to 55 unbuffed (Shroud weapon, better protection item)
HPs are just over 500 (thanks to a Greensteel item and levels)
Saves haven't really changed much
Tactical DCs are lower due to using Greensteel instead of Weighted/Vertigo, but damage per hit went up to compensate and I get the occasional Earthgrab that works about the same as a Stun
Pretty much everything else stayed the same


So...from Module 3 through Module 7, I have gained....Toughness enhancements, more levels, and better items. All of the feats I currently have I could have taken back then, and up until greensteel my items were only slightly upgraded to go along with the higher levels and higher level loot. I actually am still lower in tactical DCs than I was in late 2006.

When does the Fighter love show up again? Pretty much every other class has had fairly substantial changes in the past year or so. I still love playing him, but it's disappointing to see that there's never anything new for Fighters really. New feats, specialty enhancement lines, or whatever...pretty much anything new would be appreciated.

[Korvek]

I've been thinking about this a bit as well lately, but more in regards to armor class. The level of armor class attainable(self-buffed) hasn't changed too much, but the mob to-hit bonuses have gone up dramatically

Pre-Enhancement Rewrite - 9 Fighter/3 Paladin with FAM III, FTM III, Fighter's Dodge, and Improved Combat Expertise
10 Base
13 Armor
9 Dexterity (I think Dwarven armor mastery could still be maxed out)
7 Shield
5 Dodge
3 Natural
11 Feat (1 Dodge +1 Fighter's Dodge +9 Improved CE)
5 Protection
2 Misc (Aura)
65 Total.

Post-Shroud - 13 Fighter/3 Paladin
10 Base
14 Armor (Dragonscale Plate Armor)
7 Dex
9 Shield
5 Dodge
3 Natural
6 Feat
5 Protection
2 Aura
4 Insight Shroud weapon
65 Total.

I could be slightly off, but the change in the amount of armor class attainable has been drastically less than the increase in enemy to-hit bonuses, and I think that some form of specialty simply to increase attainable armor class would be useful, such as re-implementation of the Improved Combat Expertise and Dodge enhancement lines, or a specialty that focuses on defense. This form of PrE could apply to paladins as well.

[vyvy3369]

True, but AC has been unchanging for pretty much all classes. Edit: re-read it, and realized you meant the defense lines for Fighters, which would be a nice boost.

[Korvek]

True, but AC has been unchanging for pretty much all classes.

Well right, but let's compare a barbarian and a fighter (I'm not referring to DPS, of course a barbarian will deal more). The fighter's main advantage that the barbarian does not have tends to be a higher armor class, so less chance of getting hit. However, that advantage begins to dissipate as the barbarian's damage output increases but the fighter's armor class advantage stagnates and remains the same. Thus, as one class becomes more powerful, the other begins to fall behind because the advantage is less noticeable and without heavy investment, the advantage eventually ceases to exist. Because of this, the reason for playing that class also eventually ceases to exist (though it has not yet reached that point), as in a game such as this in which players typically want to play the most effective character possible, they will choose the one with the most advantages over the one which no longer has any advantages.

[Quanefel]

I'd say it goes beyond just AC for us fighters. We have virtually gotten no love from the Dev's when just about every class has some or a "Way of....". When are fighters going to get anything?

[Korvek]

I'd say it goes beyond just AC for us fighters. We have virtually gotten no love from the Dev's when just about every class has some or a "Way of....". When are fighters going to get anything?

I know, and I predict "Way of..." enhancements for fighters in mod 8. Then again, I've always been overly optimistic.

And fighters were the ones with the large armor-boosting enhancements back before the enhancement system change, at least when it came to feat-based bonuses.

Edit: And I'm mainly trying to stay on AC as an issue because if I bring up DPS too much, that crowd of people that talk about how fighters are either already the best at DPS or that fighters shouldn't be able to outdamage a barbarian or tempest ranger will show up and not actually bring up any sort of suggestion. I do agree though, there should definitely be specialty lines for fighters for AC, DPS, and probably something else...maybe intimidate although that would go hand in hand with any AC boost probably.

[Borror0]

I'd say it goes beyond just AC for us fighters.

/starts explaining how AC isn't a class feature for any class for the umpteeth time

[Slayer918]

True, but AC has been unchanging for pretty much all classes.

I disagree, only fighters have lost AC boosting enhancements correct? (with the exception of paladin aura going from 5 to 4 and back up to 5 with mod 7). While shroud weapons, daggertooth belt, dragonarmor, and soon AC rituals have all been added to raise AC. Fighters used to have a significant AC advantage, the devs have lowered their AC to bring other classes on par.

[Borror0]

The devs have lowered their AC to bring other classes on par.

They should have gone all the way back then, not half-way.

[vyvy3369]

Yes the specialty enhancements have some potential, but the only real class feature of a fighter is bonus feats, and DDO hasn't implemented new useful feats for a Fighter in a very long time. The last one that I can even think of was Weapon Alacrity for Sword & Board characters, but it was removed before actually making it live due to balance reasons. IIRC, it was something similar to the Tempest enhancements, where you attacked faster or something. I googled it, and found that it was supposed to "Increases attack rate with one or more of the weapons below"...so now that we've got tempest enhancements, rogue enhancements coming out soon to increase Q-staff attack speeds, etc. maybe they should look into bringing that feat back in particular.

DDO Fighters would be a lot more appealing even if there were just a much larger pool of useful Feats to choose from. Enhancement lines would just be gravy since a fighter currently seems to be defined more by what lines of feats he takes than what enhancements he takes. We're seeing new spells with every level increase, it'd be appreciated to see new feats as well, particularly since there shouldn't really be a lot of new spells once the cap hits 18.

[Borror0]

Yes the specialty enhancements have some potential, but the only real class feature of a fighter is bonus feats, and DDO hasn't implemented new useful feats for a Fighter in a very long time.

You're right, PrE got potential, both those shouldn't be limited to a class (with the exception of the obvious ones like Warchanter), but rather aimed at a class and left open to everyone and th first step to fix fighters to add more meaningful feats. Then we'll bother about the rest... but feats are a priority.

[ThrasherGT]

Just had a thought...........Fighter-types should be able to take The Dodge feat multiple times. It wouldn't be a "cure-all", but it would certainly help..........

[Borror0]

Just had a thought...........Fighter-types should be able to take The Dodge feat multiple times. It wouldn't be a "cure-all", but it would certainly help..........

That's the most stupid fix I've ever heard... ever!

[Griphon]

I've said this before.. I'll say it again.. Fighters need da love too.

Fighters aren't necessarily there to be AC monsters. They should be DPS machines like the Barbarians. They're whole purpose is to kick behind and take names. Unlike every other class, except maybe rogue, they have to rely up the 'sword and board', or just their weapons and gear. No spells... Nothing other than their feats.

New Flash: Very very few feats are even in the power range to spells, or rage in DDO. Stunning Blow is the only one that I can say that is close.. Trip/Improved Trip a close second, but still not on par.

I'd really -love- some Enhancement lines for Fighters to help out with this. Several good proposals have come from the players over the months. The best use fighter feats as a requirement and expound upon them to increase their effectiveness/trigger rate.

Weapon Master:
Requirement: Weapon Focus, Improved Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Improved Weapon Specialization. Fighter 12
Benefit: Weapons of selected type could either gain a +1 Critical Multiplier or +1 Critical Range.

Please don't confuse or compare this with the 3.0 'Weapon Master' Prestige class. I only use the name because it 'makes sense'. An enhancement line that increases damage dramatically based on Feats and Skill just is more sensible than Critical Rage. Or as I see it: Ugh.. me makes more hurt'n cuz me MAD. (Not a fan of Critical Rage if you couldn't guess.)

Yes it's all the time unlike Barbarian Rage.. But it's not an automatic selectable like Critical Rage is, as it requires 4 feats. Also as described it only has 1 level, not two like Critical range... I also prefer Critical Multiplier over Critical Range as it would be 'different' from Critical rage while it bring up DPS more on par with the Barbarians.

Tactic Master: One line for each Stunning blow, Tripping, and Sunder OR one for all.
Requirement: Tactical Feat to be improved: Improved Trip, Stunning Blow, or Improved Sunder. Max level of Fighter tactical enhancement.
Benefit: Grants the ability to trigger the effect on a critical. Every critical hit scored would give like a 25% chance of trigger the feat.

This one is scalable to be used at the various levels of fighter tactics instead of just a single enhancement. The second level would increase the frequency that a critical would trigger the feat up to 50% as well as increasing the save DC of the feat. And so on with the 3rd or 4th if the Devs wanted to go that far.

Feel free to look through the forums for more examples.. Feel free to pick them apart.

[Illuminati]

I think the Pit Fiends (after testing a bit) AB is:

50 Normal (Max Attack +65): Since his Cleave/Great Cleave are done at his highest Attack Bonus (+15), you wont see him miss you with good AC unless he does his normal attacks on you.
55 Hard (Max Attack +70):
60 Elite (Max Attack +75):

His highest attack bonus may be +20 (not sure though since I am always hit w/ cleave/gcleave. It would be cool if someone with 65+ can go in and test.

[vyvy3369]

From what I tested, on normal he seems to have somewhere around +56 or +57. However, that's really not what I was hoping this thread would get into. Despite however many people disagree, AC can still be effective against most enemies, and that's actually one thing that I really like about fighters - when I need to, I can switch gears and function in a different way. In a quest where there are a lot of low-AC builds I'll fire up CE and intimidate. In a quest where things most use spells, I'll throw on PA. Being able to be versatile and not relying on charges per rest is one of the best parts IMO, and I'd really like to see more things that assist with that.

[ThrasherGT]

That's the most stupid fix I've ever heard... ever!

OK, I'll bite. Why?

[Griphon]

How about...

Spending a feat on +1 AC repeatedly is insane?
Doesn't make enough difference to matter?

[DasLurch]

While there has been a noticable lack of new feats entering the game of late for the fighter class, the thing that has really left the class behind is the lack of enhancement lovin' that some of the other classes have gotten. I would love to see a feat like the above mentioned alacrity make it into the game. I never had heard about that one until just now. I would love to see a few more combat type feats added as well. A feat that gives you a bonus AC vs. ranged combat and a feat that would grant you a higher DC on some fighter-esque skills (like power crit) on trips, stuns, and sunders are 2 I'd like to see added to the game as well.

The real difference is in the enhancements though. The loss of the CE line was roguh, and the loss of the fighter's dodge hurt too. When there was a change to seperate the fighter DC enhancements, that hurt even worse. To add to that, there was nothing added that could take the place of those losses. Humans could take the imp revovery line... whoopie:P Humans lost out on the somewhat overpowered HV at the same time. Dwarves came out of the shake up with a stacking line of better combat enhancements, another Toughness line, and another stacking line for max dex bonuses. This is not a scream to nerf Dwarves. This is more a scream about how bad the fighter enhancements are. After the big shake up, many fighter's went and dipped deeper into their racial enhancements instead of their class ones. It was their best, and more or less, only option. Giving the class some more enhancement love would be almost as good as giving them new feats. After all, shouldn't a fighter's enhancements add on to the feats that they have already selected?

[Borror0]

OK, I'll bite. Why?

Letting Dodge be a feat that can be retook is a Bad idea, simply because that's doing a disservice to everyone.

What a lot of people don't seem to get, and that may include Turbine, is that AC is not a class feature. While it's true some class may be better at reaching high armor classes, they don't have exclusivity. Yes, a fighter and a paladin wear heavy armor, ut a rogue is agile and can dodge attacks. There is some sort of existing balance present. While class X will be a few points away from class Y, clas Y will have other means to make the balance between the classes.

Of course, as you progress in level, those who will favor DPS over Armor Class will fall back behind out of the d20's reach. That's life. It's the system we got, and we can't really change that part of it. However, about every class can focus on AC and be effective at it. (Important every class != every build.) At least, in theory, that's how it's supposed to work. For a fun gameplay, it'd be important that neither focusing on AC nor going without it are overpowered compared to the other.

What I'm saying is, giving a class a too great advantage on AC isn't a good idea. It just kills the possiblity for other classes to get Armor Class if they feel like it. Because, let's face it, they are balancing with the class who's most ahead in mind. You could argue there is a problem in their way to balance their encounter, and I would do nothing more but agree.

But that's not all.

Adding anything to increase AC is doing nothing but weakening that class. If they increase the AC a class can have, they'll probably also increase mobs to-hit accordingly. Afterall, if they wanted to boost us, they would simply have downpowered the mobs. So, by forcing us to take these AC options to be able to keep up with mobs to-hit, they're simply making us weaker and weaker. The more items to boost our AC they add, the less we will have for the rest. The more AC feats they let us take, the less feats we will have for the rest. Same for enhancements. By forcing us into grabbing more and more, they would only weaken us. Because getting it 50% at 50 AC or at 60 AC means nothing different for us, except that we probably have given up more to reach the 60 AC than the 50 AC.

That's why your suggestion is so bad, it weakens rather than improving.

If Turbine truely wanted to fix AC they would have to change a lot of things. First of all, vanilla bonuses like Favored Defense and Bulwark of Good would have to be removed. (They could increase the paladin's Aura of Good to +2 AC if they want though, because that's free anyway.) And open the Tower Shield Mastery line to anyone picking up the feat. Finally, open the Armor Mastery line to everyone and call it a day.

As for helping us to keep up with monsters' to-hit as we level, look at 4th Edition. In 4th Edition, there seems to be a lot of fixes to stuff that happenned to break at higher levels, AC being one of them. They changed the base from being a static 10 to a 10 + half of your level, smoothening the progression. They also seem to have removed Combat Expertise and Dodge (the feat), which is not a bad idea either.

Am I making any sense?

[Blazer]

Am I making any sense?

Seldom, if ever, Borror0. :D

J/K bro.