Combat Expertise and Spellcasting

[Borror0]

Everyone that has tried Combat Expertise on a paladin, or any other spellcasting class, knows how annoying it is.

Each time you cast a spell, it turn itself off. That includes using a scroll, a clickie or a wand. Each time you turn it back on, you have to run in place while activates. Sometimes it may fail and you're without CE for 30 long seconds. Yep, that's right 30s!! So if you need to throw a spell after you've just turned it back on... well you'll also have to wait 30s... It's a pain.

The weird part about this is that there is no basis to it. The Pen and Paper version of Combat Expertise (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#combatExpertise) makes no mention of a delay in your actions. You simply have to declare you do, but it doesn't take away from the number of actions you can perform within the round. The only think I can see to explain the delay is that it's there to represent the fact that you're loosing the +5 bonus until your next action, but that makes no sense.

First of all, a 30 seconds cooldown is way too long. If it's there to represent a round, then it should be shortened to two or six seconds, which are the two units DDO uses to define a round within time.


Secondly, if you go with logic, any cooldown makes no sense! Basicly, how Combat Expertise behaves in D&D is to represent that, while you're casting your spell, you're loosing the bonus to AC as you're concentrated casting the spell. So, wouldn't be the best way to implement Combat Expertise be to rather remove the bonus to AC while you're casting and return it once the spellcasting animation is over?


Thirdly, why do I have to turn it on myself? Couldn't it shut itself for the time casting the spell and turn itself back on without stopping me from moving?

It'd be a way to throw a bone to a lot of AC characters out there. Mostly to paladins that have to cast Divine Favor every one or two minutes and rogues who are using a lot of scrolls. But I'm sure there will be more builds gaining from this, or building being created after that change. :)

Thank you,
Borror0

PS: There's a bug with Combat Expertise. At low level, it gives a -5 penalty to attack rolls and a +5 bonus to AC, regardless of your BAB.

[Guildmaster_Kadish]

/agrees

[Inspire]

Agree.

[Oran_Lathor]

Totally agree. I only recently rolled my first pally. Mostly because everyone says they're gimp and I wanted to show people how a well built and well played one could perform. My only real complaint on the character (so far: he's only just hit lvl11) is how painful it is to use CE.

[Dylos_Moon]

/not signed.

If combat expertise were to automatically reactivate itself after every spell you cast, then there would be no point to spell casting turning it off in the first place. I say this because any change in this direction would make Combat Expertise popular among spell casting classes, as it would have no effect in when they can cast spells, and when they are not trying to cast a spell they would receive +5 AC for no loss (at least from their perspective.) Combat Expertise is only meant to be able to be used when you can fully dedicate your attention to fighting (in melee combat) defensively. Casting spells in pen and paper will prevent you from using Combat Expertise until the round after you are done casting your spell (meaning that there should be a cool down from when a spell disables it, though that cool down should be 6 seconds).

The SRD clearly states that you have to be participating in physical combat, i.e. not using a potion, not using a spell, not using a clickie, so yes a cool down should exist, because there is a delay between any of these actions and your next chance to participate in physical combat.

And you have to turn it on yourself because that is what concentrating means in ddo. In order to concentrate on a stance, you must click the stance with your mouse if you didn't have to activate the stance, then you wouldn't be concentrating.

[Mhykke]

/not signed.

If combat expertise were to automatically reactivate itself after every spell you cast, then there would be no point to spell casting turning it off in the first place. I say this because any change in this direction would make Combat Expertise popular among spell casting classes, as it would have no effect in when they can cast spells, and when they are not trying to cast a spell they would receive +5 AC for no loss (at least from their perspective.) Combat Expertise is only meant to be able to be used when you can fully dedicate your attention to fighting (in melee combat) defensively. Casting spells in pen and paper will prevent you from using Combat Expertise until the round after you are done casting your spell (meaning that there should be a cool down from when a spell disables it, though that cool down should be 6 seconds).

The SRD clearly states that you have to be participating in physical combat, i.e. not using a potion, not using a spell, not using a clickie, so yes a cool down should exist, because there is a delay between any of these actions and your next chance to participate in physical combat.

And you have to turn it on yourself because that is what concentrating means in ddo. In order to concentrate on a stance, you must click the stance with your mouse if you didn't have to activate the stance, then you wouldn't be concentrating.

I expected someone would bring this up.

I'd relax. No caster would bother taking CE, even w/ these changes.

[Dylos_Moon]

I expected someone would bring this up.

I'd relax. No caster would bother taking CE, even w/ these changes.

Actually, quite a few clerics might, and I know of at least 1 drow sorcerer that would (if she had the int).

[Naso24]

I like the suggested changes, either lower the cooldown to represent a single round, or implement the feat so it only deactivates for a round or 2 when you perform a non-combat action.

In this game, it doesn't make sense to have long resets when you can go from drinking a potion, to casting a spell, to pulling out 2 weapons, to switching to sword and board, to casting, all as short 1 round actions. This is a live game. It would make the game more consistent if the feat temporarily turned off, or if it was ready to reactivate the next round after the alternative action.

Consider this: You can do multiple weapon set changeouts without interrupting CE. Does that make sense?? No, but it does add simplicity which makes the game FUN.

[Borror0]

And I was starting to believe it'd be the first thread where everyone woiuld agree.
I guess I was too optimistic, eh?


If combat expertise were to automatically reactivate itself after every spell you cast, then there would be no point to spell casting turning it off in the first place.

Wrong, you would be vulnerable during the time you're casting the spell increasing your chances to take damage (not cool) and thus the chances to fail a concentration check (even less cool) and not be able to cast the spell you wanted on top of loosing the spell points for it. If the spell was casted out of combat, then allowing it to turn itself back on would simply reduce the annoying factor of it.


They would receive +5 AC for no loss (at least from their perspective.)

Combat Expertise still costs you 13 Int and a feat slot.

On top of it, you have to reach meaningful Armor Class for that bonus to even matter at all, it's not easy. I could see it gaining popularity with clerics as they are profient with heavy armor but I doubt it'd get any popular with wizards and even less with sorcerers. You might see a few builds trying it left and right, but that's about it.


Combat Expertise is only meant to be able to be used when you can fully dedicate your attention to fighting (in melee combat) defensively. Casting spells in pen and paper will prevent you from using Combat Expertise until the round after you are done casting your spell (meaning that there should be a cool down from when a spell disables it, though that cooldown should be 6 seconds).

First, I suggested that, at worse, if they really want to keep the cooldown, it should be of two or six seconds as those are the units of time DDO uses for a round. Any longer than that makes no sense to me. If Eladrin wants to come here and explain me why I'll listen, but I fail to understand why it's so long.

But you're saying it yourself "casting spells in pen and paper will prevent you from using Combat Expertise until the round after you are done casting your spell". That means that while he is casting the spell, he cannot gain from Combat Expertise. The next round begins when he just finished casting the spell, where he could turn get his bonus from Combat Expertise back. So, with that logic, the casting time should be the only time where CE if turned off.


There is a delay between any of these actions and your next chance to participate in physical combat.

That's called casting time.


And you have to turn it on yourself because that is what concentrating means in ddo. In order to concentrate on a stance, you must click the stance with your mouse if you didn't have to activate the stance, then you wouldn't be concentrating.

There is no concentration component on Power Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#powerAttack).

The delay is simply a silly implementation of Turbine. In PnP, you simply declare you want to attack, decide how much you want to reduce from your attack rolls, and then you proceed to attack. There is no concentration in it. It's just that you can't focus on dodging when you're casting a spell.

It's the kind of things that more annoys you than balances the game.

[Borror0]

Actually, quite a few clerics might, and I know of at least 1 drow sorcerer that would (if she had the int).

For the clerics, it's not a bad thing. It's not like if there would be anything preventing this to happen in PnP either.
As for the sorcerer, you said the magic words, "if she had the Int". It's not free. Besides, she'd loose one of her six feats slots for it.

I don't see this as an argument against, but as an argument for. It's not like if it would be overpowered, but it does allow more build options.

[vyvy3369]

The weird part about this is that there is no basis to it. The Pen and Paper version of Combat Expertise (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#combatExpertise) makes no mention of a delay in your actions. You simply have to declare you do, but it doesn't take away from the number of actions you can perform within the round. The only think I can see to explain the delay is that it's there to represent the fact that you're loosing the +5 bonus until your next action, but that makes no sense.
If you really want to make it like PnP, it should be a toggle that has no cooldown or delay, but the bonus AC is ONLY active while you're actively making attacks. Note the wording from what you linked to: "When you use the attack action or the full attack action in melee..." Also note that fighting defensively has similar wording.

The difference between this and things like power attack is that the benefit is still there even when you may not be suffering the penalty like PnP forces you to do.

[Borror0]

If you really want to make it like PnP, it should be a toggle that has no cooldown or delay, but the bonus AC is ONLY active while you're actively making attacks.

"The changes to attack rolls and Armor Class last until your next action."

[vyvy3369]

"The changes to attack rolls and Armor Class last until your next action."
True, but you have to actually make an attack or full attack to receive the bonus in the first place. Meaning you wouldn't benefit from it while you're just running around.

Edit: also as you mentioned, DDO seems to have 2 second rounds, so it'd be active if you made an attack roll within the previous 2 seconds seems fair.

[Borror0]

Meaning you wouldn't benefit from it while you're just running around.

True, but you can move, make your attack and benefit from it then keep on moving.:rolleyes:


DDO seems to have 2 second rounds, so it'd be active if you made an attack roll within the previous 2 seconds seems fair.

I'll remmeber you that some sacrifices have been made from the translation from D&D to DDO.

These changes were made to make it less painful in a real time. Somethings that works fine in a turned based game works less good when you bring it in a real time game. Changing Combat Expertise to work that way would just be annoying. In PnP, you're attacking all the time unless you're making a double move or not engaged in combat yet.

And besides, DDO uses 6s for buffs.:D

[vyvy3369]

I'll remmeber you that some sacrifices have been made from the translation from D&D to DDO.

These changes were made to make it less painful in a real time. Somethings that works fine in a turned based game works less good when you bring it in a real time game. Changing Combat Expertise to work that way would just be annoying. In PnP, you're attacking all the time unless you're making a double move or not engaged in combat yet.

And besides, DDO uses 6s for buffs.:D
Right...like making CE have a delay, cooldown, and turning off when you cast a spell :P.

If you want it to be more like PnP, why should you gain all of the benefits without suffering any of the penalties? It always struck me as odd that the cooldown was so long, but I gain +5 AC when I'm not attacking, so it seemed fair. You're essentially proposing to take away most of the penalties currently given to DDO's version of CE to match PnP, but not taking away benefits to match.

[Dylos_Moon]

Wrong, you would be vulnerable during the time you're casting the spell increasing your chances to take damage (not cool) and thus the chances to fail a concentration check (even less cool) and not be able to cast the spell you wanted on top of loosing the spell points for it. If the spell was casted out of combat, then allowing it to turn itself back on would simply reduce the annoying factor of it.

Except for the fact that most aggro is drawn after the spell is cast.



Combat Expertise still costs you 13 Int and a feat slot.

On top of it, you have to reach meaningful Armor Class for that bonus to even matter at all, it's not easy. I could see it gaining popularity with clerics as they are profient with heavy armor but I doubt it'd get any popular with wizards and even less with sorcerers. You might see a few builds trying it left and right, but that's about it.

What i meant by no cost was the -5 to hit means nothing to a caster.


There is no concentration component on Power Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#powerAttack).

Actually that's not entirely correct, you must make an attack to benefit in any way from Power Attack, so you are concentrating on making your attack.


The delay is simply a silly implementation of Turbine. In PnP, you simply declare you want to attack, decide how much you want to reduce from your attack rolls, and then you proceed to attack. There is no concentration in it. It's just that you can't focus on dodging when you're casting a spell.

It's the kind of things that more annoys you than balances the game.
Clicking the stance is declaring you are using it to the GM. Just in this case, Turbine is basically saying "If theres no blue box here, you're not using Combat Expertise."

[JosephKell]

I have a solution that would make all parties happy (sort of). In maintaining the 3.5 ruleset, they could just change Combat Expertise so that it applies a -2 or -3 penalty to the DC of their spells. Using this way, there would be no reason to have spells knock someone out of defensive stance or combat expertise.

But a better longterm solution would be to restart DDO under the 4e ruleset. Then Combat Expertise (which I think is -2 to attacks, +3 defenses or something like that, similar to Power Attack in 4e) would affect spellcasters just like melee characters.

See in 4e, there isn't a DC for spells, there is an attack modifier. So this way when using Combat Expertise to raise your AC you reduce your chances to hit as appropriately.

The only problem with this solution is that it would anger the fan base. So it won't happen, at least, not until DDO starts to severely suffer from under utilization.

[Borror0]

You're essentially proposing to take away most of the penalties currently given to DDO's version of CE to match PnP, but not taking away benefits to match.

Ok, let's put it this way. What penalty from PnP is missing in DDO?


Except for the fact that most aggro is drawn after the spell is cast.

So, you'd have time to turn CE on by then.


Actually that's not entirely correct, you must make an attack to benefit in any way from Power Attack, so you are concentrating on making your attack.

You're missing the point, totally.
In PnP, the concentration is swinging your weapon. In DDO, it's turning the stance on plus swinging your weapon.


Clicking the stance is declaring you are using it to the GM. Just in this case, Turbine is basically saying "If theres no blue box here, you're not using Combat Expertise."

That's not an argument to not have CE turn off automaticly.
I didn't say that I wanted to blue box to disappear when I casted the spell.

[Borror0]

But a better longterm solution would be to restart DDO under the 4e ruleset.

Do you have the page nubmer for that? trying to find it since 5 minutes...

[Dylos_Moon]

You're missing the point, totally.
In PnP, the concentration is swinging your weapon. In DDO, it's turning the stance on plus swinging your weapon.
Except that Power Attack never turns itself off, not even when you die.


That's not an argument to not have CE turn off automaticly.
I didn't say that I wanted to blue box to disappear when I casted the spell.
You're missing my point here, that part wasn't arguing about CE turning off automatically, it was about Declaring using CE, in response to your message about simply declaring to use CE in pnp, I was pointing out that in a sense you do the same thing by clicking the button.

My argument for it not turning back on automatically is that Casters typically don't draw aggro until right after their spell is cast, which is why being vulnerable during the time just when you are casting the spell does not specifically hurt casters.

[JosephKell]

I don't really understand what you mean Borror0. A page number? Oh in the 4e PHB? I was just making up what Combat Expertise might do in 4e based on what I saw for Power Attack.

I wasn't being serious. Restarting DDO under the 4e ruleset would be suicide for DDO (even if it would make a better game). A lot of the fan base would quit.

The right decision can be the wrong decision if the market would be offended by it.

If you are seriously interested in D&D 4e, you should check out http://www.dndinsider.com/

[QuantumFX]

/agree with the request.

The balance comes for the fact that the benefits of CE would be nullified for the casting time. The benefit for casters is minimal because the DoT spells are all slow casting times.

[Borror0]

Except that Power Attack never turns itself off, not even when you die.

So...? You point is..?


You're missing my point here, that part wasn't arguing about CE turning off automatically, it was about Declaring using CE, in response to your message about simply declaring to use CE in pnp, I was pointing out that in a sense you do the same thing by clicking the button.

Yes, but in a PnP game, you'll probably keep CE during the whole encounter if it proves itself to be effective.

I don't see what's so bad in assuming someone always wants it on. Even more when it's to follow the way it is in PnP. It's not activating CE isn't supposed to slow you down, or prevent you of making any action. It's passive. It should always turn itself back on unless you desactivate it yourself.


My argument for it not turning back on automatically is that Casters typically don't draw aggro until right after their spell is cast, which is why being vulnerable during the time just when you are casting the spell does not specifically hurt casters.

What about paladins who cast DF? What about rogues who use scrolls? What about battle clerics healing themselves while fighting?

[Dylos_Moon]

So...? You point is..?

With Power Attack you only ever have to activate it once, unless you wish to deactivate it, much like you are suggesting for CE, you don't have to turn on the stance more then once to use power attack. You said concentrating on power attack was turning on power attack and swinging your weapon. If power attack never deactivates itself, all you have to do to concentrate on using Power Attack is swing your weapon.


Yes, but in a PnP game, you'll probably keep CE during the whole encounter if it proves itself to be effective.

I don't see what's so bad in assuming someone always wants it on. Even more when it's to follow the way it is in PnP. It's not activating CE isn't supposed to slow you down, or prevent you of making any action. It's passive. It should always turn itself back on unless you desactivate it yourself.



What about paladins who cast DF? What about rogues who use scrolls? What about battle clerics healing themselves while fighting?
If you want CE to work like pnp, then CE will also have to turn itself off whenever you are moving for more then 6 seconds, as you did not attack during that round. CE is passive, but you must attack to use it, it says that directly in the SRD. In order for this to work, there would have to be a background process (for every character) checking if combat expertise/defensive fighting is enabled, and checking if they've attacked in the last 6 seconds. Due to the short amount of time it would take for this to cycle, I imagine a lot of lag would be caused by this fix simply because every character would be checking if they'd attacked in the last 6 seconds. Making CE stay on all the time and still deactivate at times would likely cause too much lag, especially on slower computes.

[Borror0]

If power attack never deactivates itself, all you have to do to concentrate on using Power Attack is swing your weapon.

Yes, that's how it's supposed to work.


If you want CE to work like pnp, then CE will also have to turn itself off whenever you are moving for more then 6 seconds, as you did not attack during that round.

The reason for this change isn't "to make it like PnP" like you seem to understand from it.

The reason CE must be changed is rather that it's utterly annoying to turn it back on. Do you have an AC paladin or rogue? You have no clue on how annoying it can get. Just on my fighter, it's a pain. Imagine how it is to have to turn it back on every one or two minutes if you got Extend. It's even worse on a rogue! It's not that much of a pain of a pain in PnP and it should be the same in DDO.

The current form is currently annoying, for no apprent reasons.

What you're currently arguing me makes no sense. I'm not one of those PnP rule lawyaers who thinks that everything who should be like PnP. I actually hate them! I had to deal with one on the wiki and you have no idea of how painful he was. The only reasons I brang PnP up is that it supports my request.

What I'm suggesting would improve the gameplay of many players and develop more build options. So, unless you've got a good argument as in "It would be overpowered" and that you're willing to expain it to me, I'll just ignore your posts on this topic.

So, got any revelant arguments?

[Inspire]

Hmm, Read In A Post Somewhere That CE Turns Itself Off When Monks Use Their Finishing Moves And Not Their Elemental Ki Strikes.

Wondering If This "Finishing Move" Is Considerd As A Spell...

This Being Said, CE Is A Monk Class Ability, And Not Being Able To Sucessfully Benefit From It Seems Like A Waste, Now To The Point, If This Is The Way CE Is Implemented For Monk, I Agree With You Borr, Monk Should "Concentrate" On Thier Finishing Move, Then Revert Back To Their Combat Stance Without Having To Toggle It, Power Attack Works Well With This Trait As It Do Not Automatically Turn Off While Under The Influence Of Said Finishing Move.

[Borror0]

I wasn't being serious. Restarting DDO under the 4e ruleset would be suicide for DDO (even if it would make a better game). A lot of the fan base would quit.

I know, but I think we can base ourselves on 4th Edition to make some changes in DDO.

The whole point of 4th Edition is to fix the flaws that are present in 3.5. they seem to have done a fe nice things, mostly about the progression through high levels and making level less useful. I'm ready about it and there is interesting stuff about it so far, and there is clearly some stuff we could bring from there to DDO as enhancements. I'm reading about rogues right now and there is clearly an enhancements that could be developed right there.

In 4th Edition, from what I've been told, sneak attack can be dealt to any mobs including undeads and conctructs as they all have a weak point somewhere even though they may lack vital organs. However, the number of dices for sneak attacks is lower (even though the Backstabber feat allows you to change your dice from d6 to d8 and that Brutal Scoundrel allows you to add your strength to sneak attacks). 2d6 from 1st to 10th level, 3d6 from 11th to 20th and 5d6 from 21st to 30th level.

So, following a pit this mentality, we could come up with the following enhancements:

Rogue Undead Smiting I
Cost: 2 Action Points
Prereqs: Rogue Level 5, Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I, Rogue Sneak Attack Training II
Benefit: Your rogue can now deal 2d6 sneak attack damage to undeads.


Rogue Undead Smiting II
Cost: 4 Action Points
Prereqs: Rogue Level 10, Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy III, Rogue Sneak Attack Training IV, Rogue Undead Smiting I
Benefit: Your rogue can now deal 3d6 sneak attack damage to undeads.


Rogue Undead Smiting III
Cost: 6 Action Points
Prereqs: Rogue Level 20, Rogue Undead Smiting II
Benefit: Your rogue can now deal 5d6 sneak attack damage to undeads.


Then, do the very same for constructs to replace Rogue Wrack Construct.

[Borror0]

Hmm, Read In A Post Somewhere That CE Turns Itself Off When Monks Use Their Finishing Moves And Not Their Elemental Ki Strikes.

I was wondering about that too, but I told myself that there is no way Turbine could have let that slip...:eek:

[Inspire]

Yep, I Have A High Lvl Paladin Who Uses Both CE And Power Attack, The Ac Boost Is Nice but I Am Finding Myself Forgetting To Turn It Back On Even Though It Is On My Main Hotbar(Right Next To Divine Favor :rolleyes:) And Not Needing To Use It For Most Normal Runs It Usually Stays Off And Power Attack Takes It Place For The Sole Reason That I Do Not Have To Toggle It On Every 60Seconds.

As I Enjoy Personal Challenges Running Things On Elite Solo/Short-Man CE Is Usually Required, And That Is The Biggest Personal Nusiance I Have Met In This Game So Far, My Batman Build Uses CE Aswell, But He Only Has To Toggle It Back On After GH/TS/Blur/Stoneskin/Resist/Haste Clicky(Shroud), Or After Using Mass Heals/Fulls Heals/CSW Wands, Its Just Not As Annoying As Activating It Every 60Seconds IMO.

I Think An Implementation Like This Would Work Very Well With Any UMD/Defensive Caster Build And It Wouldnt Be As Annoying As It Is Currently By Any Means.

[Borror0]

I Think An Implementation Like This Would Work Very Well With Any UMD/Defensive Caster Build And It Wouldnt Be As Annoying As It Is Currently By Any Means.

Exactly, I see no reasons to not implement it, unless someone can prove me it will be overpowered somehow.

[Inspire]

Exactly, I see no reasons to not implement it, unless someone can prove me it will be overpowered somehow.

There In No Way It Can Be Overpowered, All It Is Doing Is Saving You The Hassel...

...Unless The Devs Are Secretly Trying To Get Us To Forget To Turn It Back On :rolleyes:

Conspiracy In The Making? :D

[Borror0]

There In No Way It Can Be Overpowered, All It Is Doing Is Saving You The Hassel...

...Unless The Devs Are Secretly Trying To Get Us To Forget To Turn It Back On :rolleyes:

That's my opinion on it too, but I'm trying to keep my mind open in case someone sees something I don't.

[Drekisen]

I know this sounds like a strange build probably to a few, but I am currently working on a WZD/PLN/FGT build. At current end game my levels will be WZD12/PLN3/FGT1.

Now keep in mind....when I am judging my build I go off of normal difficulty setting. Hard and elite are not scaled as to what thier quest level states. I think more appropriately, a normal level 5 quest for instance, should be rated level 7 on hard, and level 10 on elite. That is how the creature cr ratings scale. So that aside, do not take any of what I am saying to be factual of what say a level 10 character can do effectively in a level 8 normal quest set to elite, which would be shown as level 10, but technically be level 13.

OK, now more to the point of this thread, I find CE very useful. Yes it is going to be very hard to use in say a zerging party type setting, which a lot of parties are. However when u slow things up a bit, use divide & conquer, tactics work very effectively. Throwing down an extended solid fog, dragging a whole bunch of nasties to it. then casting a few Wall of Fires on them after which u flip on ur CE, makes for a nice combo, especially if u have tumble as well. Not to mention the amount of times a wizzie runs out of mana, it's nice to be able to do something instead of just twiddle ur thumbs hoping for the best.

As for AC, without raid loot by level 16, 50 AC self buffed, 55 AC if I can get a Chattering Ring and Chaosguarde.
Either way, no matter what anyone says, 50 AC is quite helpful. AC works fine, my 48 AC on my barbarian got me thru plenty in the Vale. As far as to hit with the -5 penalty, well I use shortswords, will have both attack enhancements for drow and follower of Vuilkoor (spelling?) If I am out of mana anyways, I will pop a TT scroll or use a DP clickie.

It's a handy feat, and what with all the bonus meta's wizards get, it does not hamper u to much. My spells will still be effective as my INT shoould top out at around 34, without a +3 tome.

Would I do this on a Sorc? Very doubtful, but then the power of a sorc's spell casting is much more.

Sorry Bor, I guess this is in more response to showing it's effectiveness and gets away from your OP subject a bit.

As far as the cooldown time is concerned, yes it is a bit much for sure, as far as CE being something not effectively used by a caster type, I disagree.

[Inspire]

That's my opinion on it too, but I'm trying to keep my mind open in case someone sees something I don't.

Same Here, But If That Is The Case, Changes Will Have To Be Made For Power Attack Aswell. Combat Stances Should Act Alike IMO.

[GeneralDiomedes]

Looking through the casting action stuff and feat description in PHB I am not seeing any basis for casting turning it off. Basically, nothing should turn it off. IMO turning it on would be like saying to the DM "just assume that I'm fighting defensively every round".

Now, there has to be some balance somewhere, and I think that balance should be to lower your AC by 4 while casting to simulate attacks of opportunity.

[Borror0]

Sorry Bor, I guess this is in more response to showing it's effectiveness and gets away from your OP subject a bit.

Don't worry.


As far as the cooldown time is concerned, yes it is a bit much for sure, as far as CE being something not effectively used by a caster type, I disagree.

Not saying it is not effective, but it's not common. This change wouldn't overpower you, would it?

[Borror0]

Looking through the casting action stuff and feat description in PHB I am not seeing any basis for casting turning it off. Basically, nothing should turn it off. IMO turning it on would be like saying to the DM "just assume that I'm fighting defensively every round".

Actually, I see the logic for turning it off.

You see, to activate CE in PnP, you need to attack. So, while you're casting, you're busy casting rather than fighting defensivly.
That's their logic. I'd be fine by loosing CE's benefit while casting, but not turning it off.

[GeneralDiomedes]

Actually, I see the logic for turning it off.

You see, to activate CE in PnP, you need to attack. So, while you're casting, you're busy casting rather than fighting defensivly.
That's their logic. I'd be fine by loosing CE's benefit while casting, but not turning it off.

This would also apply to shield blocking as well as just standing around if you change to simply not apply unless you are attacking

[Borror0]

This would also apply to shield blocking as well as just standing around if you change to simply not apply unless you are attacking

You could argue that blocking is fairly defensive...:rolleyes:

[GeneralDiomedes]

You could argue that blocking is fairly defensive...:rolleyes:

defensive yes .. defensive fighting .. can't agree with that (it's a Dodge bonus after all)

I would support

- only applying CE when you attack (make it like the Mobility and Tumbling)
- nothing can turn the stance off on your hotbar
- give us an AC penalty when casting

[Borror0]

only applying CE when you attack

Bah, does the what's the difference between keeping CE on all the time or giving you +4 because you're in total defense (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsincombat.htm#totalDefense) really matter that much?

Obviously, when you're blocking, you're in total defense. (So shouldn't the bonus for actively blocking become +4?)

[Inspire]

defensive yes .. defensive fighting .. can't agree with that

Dodge, Parry, Block, Tumble, Etc. All Part Of What Is Considerd By Most To Be Fighting Defensivly IMO.

Of The 4:

3 Grant Ac(Dodge, Parry, Tumble)
1 Grants DR(Blocking)

[Drekisen]

Don't worry.



Not saying it is not effective, but it's not common. This change wouldn't overpower you, would it?

I sure as heck would not object :) Not like there isn't insane casters trying to make me lunch with unlimited mana or those stupid Ogres and Trolls that still mistake me for a nail.

[Borror0]

Noooo!!!! LOL

Thank you, all I wanted to hear. :)

[Oran_Lathor]

Disclaimer: I only read the first couple of pages of the thread before making this reply.

To those of you (San'tar) who disagree with Bor's suggestions in the OP, would you really have a problem with a reduced penalty (cooldown?). I, for one, am not necessarily saying you should just lose the stance for the duration of the cast or something. I'm just saying that the 30 second lockout on casting and the long stance-change bar etc seem to be a bit much to me. Would it really make CE that 'overpowered' if it only locked out casting for 6 seconds or so instead of 30? These things don't affect my viability all that much on my new paladin, but let me tell you, they are a serious annoyance - and one that I can't see any good reason for. The problem is exacerbated by the fact that, once in a while, you click CE and it doesn't turn on (happens with virtually every ability in the game) and you get blessed with the 30s cooldown and lockout anyway.

On the bright side, this is one thread that I can't see the devs reading - naysayers or not - without realizing the value of the suggestions. Thanks Bor, I expect a change to CE at some point down the road, when they have time to code it. :)

[Hvymetal]

I couldn't support this more, I constantly forget to turn CE back on on my 1 Rogue with it........

[vyvy3369]

Ok, let's put it this way. What penalty from PnP is missing in DDO?
The one where you are forced to make some form of attack action in order to receive the benefit (edit: and that you only receive the benefits on the rounds when you're actually suffering from the attack penalty). Quite often in PnP I've seen people take a single attack just so that they can receive the AC benefit when they'd have taken a double move if that portion of the rule wasn't in place.

In PnP you are forced to make some form of attack at a penalty. The benefit is that you gain AC until your next action.

In DDO you have a slight delay after turning it on, you take a penalty only when attacking, and if it gets turned off there's a 30 second cooldown. The benefit is that you gain AC until it gets turned off.

I don't really like the cooldown either, but it doesn't seem fair to remove some of the drawbacks without removing some of the benefits also.

[Xyfiel]

My main Battlewizard:
Long term buffs, rage/fireshield if needed, displacement, haste, tensers, wait until the cooldown timer is gone(or you lose the CE), then CE.

I took CE at 15, and kept losing it if I hit it too soon. I finally figured it was base on the cooldown timers on spells. Maybe someone else can experiment with that since I can't right now. It ends up me losing almost 10 seconds to engage it.
(6 seconds from TT cooldown, 2+ to take effect)

[Borror0]

The one where you are forced to make some form of attack action in order to receive the benefit (edit: and that you only receive the benefits on the rounds when you're actually suffering from the attack penalty). Quite often in PnP I've seen people take a single attack just so that they can receive the AC benefit when they'd have taken a double move if that portion of the rule wasn't in place.

Ok, correct me if I'm wrong since it's been a few years I haven't played Pen and Paper myself and so I might not remember some rule, but why would someone go and attack a monster just to get an extra AC? I mean, wouldn't it be wiser to just spend that standard get into Total Defense (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsincombat.htm#totalDefense)?

But really vyvy, you're arguing on PnP rules.

You know what Dimension Door does in PnP? You know what Ram's Might do in PnP? You know what... you get the point. There is simply a difference between sticking to the rules and keeping it fun. Currently, CE's cooldown and turn off when you cast a spell is not balancing the feat, it's not making it less powerful... it only makes it more annoying. Take Hvymetal for example, he gets annoyed of having it always turning it off and the only way the say it makes the feat powerful is if you assume that he is going to forget to turn it back on.

But let's assume for a second it's there to balance the transition, well then it's bad implementation because it hurts those who cast spells much more than those who don't cast it. We could argue about making it last only for 6s after you attacked, but I think neither of us wants that, right? I think that anyone that understands the game a little will know that it's about the last thing AC builds need.

I think that both you and I will agree that the feat is properly balanced. I'm not talking about making it more powerful, simply easier to use. Is that a sin? What bothers you so much about it? Are you scared to see the feat getting overpowered tomorrow and AC builds taking over? I don't see it...

[krud]

True, but you have to actually make an attack or full attack to receive the bonus in the first place. Meaning you wouldn't benefit from it while you're just running around.
.

in PnP a round of combat also includes the time in between when you are not actively swinging your weapon in attack. Translate a PnP round into DDO and you must include the pauses in between swings, the parries and defensive moves as part of the "attack" round.

[Ralmeth]

I wholeheartedly agree. I play a Paladin intimitank with CE and I found this issue has become a real pain.

-I like to use a CSW to top people's HPs off, to help out the Cleric (if you're lucky enough to have a Cleric in your group) but this turns CE off. In a group without a Cleric very often I've become the cleric using CSW wands and LOH as necessary to heal people.
-It's also really helpful in combat to cast Divine Favor, but in order to use this right you have to cast DF, then turn CE on. If you don't do this in the proper order you can't cast DF for 30 seconds.
-If you really mess up and press your CE button a second time and turn it off, you can't get it back or cast a spell for 30 seconds.

I think the developers put this feature in though so that arcane casters don't use CE for an easy +5 to AC. So it may be unbalancing to completely remove this restriction. Instead, I propose:

-For a character with a number of levels as a tank (i.e. non arcane), remove this restriction. What other classes would it make sense to change this for, without being overpowering? Perhaps any divine-based character, or divine based item? Or perhaps change the restriction such that a divine based spell, ability, or item would not turn CE off? Make it act like power attack...It just stays on while it's on and you can turn it on and off in a second or two.

/Signed
Ralmeth

[maddmatt70]

I want the same to be true for halfling dragonmarks and CE. I think that if halfling dragonmarks could be used with CE this would benefit a whole lot of people and really why not..

[Dimicron]

/signed for the original proposal and...


I want the same to be true for halfling dragonmarks and CE. I think that if halfling dragonmarks could be used with CE this would benefit a whole lot of people and really why not..

most definitely /signed for this as well.

[krud]

This would also apply to shield blocking as well as just standing around if you change to simply not apply unless you are attacking

or you could just throw a shield bash to keep the CE bonus active.

How about his option:

When you have CE toggled on you get your AC bonus only for a few seconds after each attack/bash. Each swing would refresh the AC bonus timer. When attacking in combat this would essentially mean that you're always getting your AC bonus. When doing anything else, like casting, dungeon exploring, etc, it does not give a bonus (unless you want to constantly swing your weapon while running around). It would prevent the ability to do any other non-combat function while getting the CE bonus.

i'll go with almost anything that'll make it less annoying to use.

[vyvy3369]

Ok, correct me if I'm wrong since it's been a few years I haven't played Pen and Paper myself and so I might not remember some rule, but why would someone go and attack a monster just to get an extra AC? I mean, wouldn't it be wiser to just spend that standard get into Total Defense (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsincombat.htm#totalDefense)?
Total defense doesn't give you an attack. If you're currently next to an enemy, take a swing for a chance at dealing damage and gain the AC for use with your other action to move out of harm's way (and the rest of the round).


But really vyvy, you're arguing on PnP rules...
You're the one that brought up how it makes no sense vs. the PnP version. I pointed out how much it differs, and there's both extra benefits and penalties. If you're no longer trying to compare it to PnP, your argument comes down to the fact that it's annoying for spellcasters.


in PnP a round of combat also includes the time in between when you are not actively swinging your weapon in attack. Translate a PnP round into DDO and you must include the pauses in between swings, the parries and defensive moves as part of the "attack" round.
When did I suggest otherwise? "Just" running around as you quoted refers to the times when you're spending your entire DDO round moving, casting a spell, etc.


But let's assume for a second it's there to balance the transition, well then it's bad implementation because it hurts those who cast spells much more than those who don't cast it. We could argue about making it last only for 6s after you attacked, but I think neither of us wants that, right? I think that anyone that understands the game a little will know that it's about the last thing AC builds need.

I think that both you and I will agree that the feat is properly balanced. I'm not talking about making it more powerful, simply easier to use. Is that a sin? What bothers you so much about it? Are you scared to see the feat getting overpowered tomorrow and AC builds taking over? I don't see it...
Actually I'd much rather see it last for 6 seconds after making an attack and not having it toggle when I use a clicky/spell/lesser restore pot/etc. Nothing about it currently bothers me, but I don't like things giving benefits without an appropriate cost. The feat is fairly well balanced as it is today, yes, but you are talking about making it more powerful unless you're dropping the cooldown issue. Keeping it active but not giving the bonus after casting doesn't seem to impact gameplay at all except to make the feat easier to use as you mentioned.

[Borror0]

I want the same to be true for halfling dragonmarks and CE.

Obviously. Wait, wait, wait... are we agreeing on something?!:eek:

[krud]

. We could argue about making it last only for 6s after you attacked, but I think neither of us wants that, right? I think that anyone that understands the game a little will know that it's about the last thing AC builds need.


Why not? If the CE toggle remains on and the bonus refreshes with each swing then you have a situation where you're getting the full bonus throughout combat, yet no bonus when not in combat. This would be much more in line with the PnP CE (as well as less hassle).

[Magnus_Arcanis]

I don't see what would be wrong about losing the AC bonus for 6 seconds + cast time and then re-gain the AC bonus until the next spell is cast. This way you keep to pnp, actually have an easier time playing, and the feat is still balanced along with opening up new builds (as mentioned before) which last time I checked is a good thing.

Current pros and cons of CE:

Pros:
- Great option for potion only AC builds

Cons:
- Long stance load time
- Locks out spellcasting for what? 30 seconds? 20...something like that
- Makes using wands, clickies, and dragonmarks (or so I gather from previous posts, my first dragon marked character with CE won't happen until the 3rd) extremely difficult to use

CE under proposed implementation:

Pros:
- Great option for all AC builds

Cons:
- Lose AC for 6 seconds + cast time when casting a spell, use a wand, clicky or dragonmark

So while in nuke mode your caster would keep refreshing its 'loss of AC' timer, and while in 'stand in area spell' mode the caster might not get hit by every everything that even looks at the spell caster. Seems perfectly acceptable to me, only big drawback is that we would have to wait for a big update for CE to be changed.

Though the best part is, this would hardly change the game at all and would be widely accepted among the players. Those that have been muscling through with CE now would rejoice, those that hadn't considered it before now have a new possible direction to take, but wouldn't be any less effective than they are now if they chose not to take the feat.

Seems like a win/win to me.

[Borror0]

Though the best part is, this would hardly change the game at all and would be widely accepted among the players. Those that have been muscling through with CE now would rejoice, those that hadn't considered it before now have a new possible direction to take, but wouldn't be any less effective than they are now if they chose not to take the feat.

Seems like a win/win to me.

Exactly, I see some people arguing against my suggestion, but why?

It's not like it would overpowered AC all of a sudden. If you want I can bring up my whole explanation as to why AC is weak at end game. You'll see that this change wouldn't make it any better, it'd simply help a few builds being better at AC. Like Magnus Arcanis said, it's something that thos who have CE will enjoy, all of them. Those that don't won't care at all, we're in a DPS end game afterall, and might consider making a toon around that change. Finally, some might grab it because it'd fit their character better now.

That is all there is to see.

I don't see why some want to go with the +5 AC buff when attacking, this is clearly a lesser option than simply loosing the benefit of Combat Expertise while casting and seems easier to code. (Simply give a -5 to AC when casting for as long as CE is on.)Right now, except the part that makes you have to turn it back on each time you cast a spell, CE is fairly weel adapted to the twitch nature of the game. Changing it to a 6s when attacking hurts that part for AC characters as they much keep attacking to maintain their bonus...

[krud]

Exactly, I see some people arguing against my suggestion, but why?

It's not like it would overpowered AC all of a sudden. If you want I can bring up my whole explanation as to why AC is weak at end game. You'll see that this change wouldn't make it any better, it'd simply help a few builds being better at AC. Like Magnus Arcanis said, it's something that thos who have CE will enjoy, all of them. Those that don't won't care at all, we're in a DPS end game afterall, and might consider making a toon around that change. Finally, some might grab it because it'd fit their character better now.

That is all there is to see.

I don't see why some want to go with the +5 AC buff when attacking, this is clearly a lesser option than simply loosing the benefit of Combat Expertise while casting and seems easier to code. (Simply give a -5 to AC when casting for as long as CE is on.)Right now, except the part that makes you have to turn it back on each time you cast a spell, CE is fairly weel adapted to the twitch nature of the game. Changing it to a 6s when attacking hurts that part for AC characters as they much keep attacking to maintain their bonus...
for arguements sake, why do you need a bonus if you are not involved in combat? the feat is designed for melee characters afterall.


I've posted about making CE less of a hassle before. I'd be happy with any change that allows me to use CE without the annoyance of toggling it on and off. Losing the AC bonus for 6sec while casting is clearly the more powerful solution. I only suggested the other solution satisfy the PnP fundamentalists out there (it is more in line with PnP, and equally less of a hassle). Either solution would work for me.

please devs do something about CE.

[Magnus_Arcanis]

I've posted about making CE less of a hassle before. I'd be happy with any change that allows me to use CE without the annoyance of toggling it on and off. Losing the AC bonus for 6sec while casting is clearly the more powerful solution. I only suggested the other solution satisfy the PnP fundamentalists out there (it is more in line with PnP, and equally less of a hassle). Either solution would work for me.

please devs do something about CE.

The only problem with that solution is that it doesn't actually fit the description of the pnp version. Its really close, definately, but not quite.

CE requires that you use an attack action of some sort. Which means more than just what it implies such as blocking, tumbling, or even standing at the ready. Even jumping can count as an attack action, so only having the ac bonus when makin an attack will actually make it difficult to recieve the bonus and most likely force players to alter their playstyles so they can keep up their CE bonus.

Really it would seem much easier for the devs and the players to have the AC bonus temporarily reduced as opposed to temporarily increased.

Thats just my opinion though. Plus it looks better on the stat sheet, not that it matters that much, but I know I like looking at my character sheet and seeing what does what :).

[Dirac]

Well, I'm not going to read the whole thread, this is too obvious a slam dunk. The system can lower our armor class while we're moving; it can turn off CE while we're casting and bring it back after we're done. We shouldn't have to do it ourselves and the cooldown is silly. Changing it wouldn't overpower anything, but would make the game significantly more fun for those who use it.

Great Suggestion!

[GeneralDiomedes]

Dodge, Parry, Block, Tumble, Etc. All Part Of What Is Considerd By Most To Be Fighting Defensivly IMO.

Of The 4:

3 Grant Ac(Dodge, Parry, Tumble)
1 Grants DR(Blocking)

I don't want to get into a rules discussion, I'm just arguing from common sense. If you are blocking, you aren't fighting in a more fluid manner which allows you to more easily dodge attacks. That's what combat expertise does from the description IMO.

[Rilen]

Just askin ... my sustainable self-buffed 62 AC melee (pally,ftr,rog) (68, if using +4 AC weapon from Shroud, and assuming
the new Rituals allow for stackable +1 to armor and +1 to shield from alchemical) would not be unbalancing
if allowed to chain-scroll Displacements via UMD w/o a penalty/delay/AC reduction via the existing Combat Ex
implementation?

really?

Awesome. /signed. =P

[Borror0]

Really it would seem much easier for the devs and the players to have the AC bonus temporarily reduced as opposed to temporarily increased.

It would be easier, at least in gameplay factors.


for arguements sake, why do you need a bonus if you are not involved in combat? the feat is designed for melee characters afterall.

So, while it was designed for melee character, why not open it up more?

But that's not the issue. Right now, paladins are still melee characters as far as they know. they haven't regressed to a level of gimpess high enough for them to not be able to melee yet. Rogues are still melee characters and are UMD'ing scrolls fairly often. Clerics are a melee class, otherwise why in hell would they have a 3/4 BAB?! Monks are also a melee class that has serious defensive traits. Turbine even gave monks Combat Expertise in their martial arts feats, but guess what, finishing moves turn CE off.

My suggestion is more powerful than a 6s buff, right. But mine isn't overpowered either. It closer to what it's already there, thus most likely easier to code. Then, it's closer to PnP than the current implementation. Yours is even closer, but being closer to PnP never meant equaled good. Your suggestion is simply worse than mine and simply can't see a way to justify taking your over mine, it's not like either was overpowered... so let me say it, why not take the best one?

And just to kill the PnP argument in the egg, yours isn't perfect either. It's supposed to only buff you while fighting, and it's clearly impossible for it to give you an AC bonus while you are casting a spell. With a 6s second bonus to your AC, you'll be able to cast spells in combat while keeping your AC bonus. (Battle cleric step out, cast Heal on himself, step back in and never lost his AC bonus.)

And then you're stuck with te definition of fighting in a real time game. Swinging a weapon? That means that casters could keep their AC bonus all the time except if they are casting multiples spells in a row (ie more than 6s). Besides that would only increase the annoying factor as you would have to hold your mouse to keep attacking while running so you don't loose your AC bonus. So, connecting with the enemy? That's not perfect either. Your suggestion is too clunky for me to side by it and approve it.


I don't want to get into a rules discussion, I'm just arguing from common sense. If you are blocking, you aren't fighting in a more fluid manner which allows you to more easily dodge attacks. That's what combat expertise does from the description IMO.

If you're actively defensing yourself, you get +4 to AC in PnP

[Borror0]

Jthe new Rituals allow for stackable +1 to armor and +1 to shield from alchemical) would not be unbalancing
if allowed to chain-scroll Displacements via UMD w/o a penalty/delay/AC reduction via the existing Combat Ex
implementation?

Elves are capable of having 21 minutes of Displacement on any character.
Besides, chaining displacement scrolls is costy and slows you down.

[Inspire]

I don't want to get into a rules discussion, I'm just arguing from common sense. If you are blocking, you aren't fighting in a more fluid manner which allows you to more easily dodge attacks. That's what combat expertise does from the description IMO.

Well If You Consider Tumble As A Fluent Defensive Fighting Tactic(Which I Use On Most Of My Fighter Classes To Dodge/Flank/Gain Ac), In Oder To Perform Tumble(In DDO) You Must Block First.

[Inspire]

Elves are capable of having 21 minutes of Displacement on any character.
Besides, chaining displacement scrolls is costy and slows you down.

Nope, Unfortunatly Displacement Is Only 6Seconds Per Caster Level, Or Equal To An Elf's Character Level If Using The Lesser Dragonmark Of Shadow, This Can However, Be Extended If Meta-Magic Feats Are Available.

Your Point Still Stands.

[redoubt]

Everyone that has tried Combat Expertise on a paladin, or any other spellcasting class, knows how annoying it is.

Each time you cast a spell, it turn itself off. That includes using a scroll, a clickie or a wand. Each time you turn it back on, you have to run in place while activates. Sometimes it may fail and you're without CE for 30 long seconds. Yep, that's right 30s!! So if you need to throw a spell after you've just turned it back on... well you'll also have to wait 30s... It's a pain.

The weird part about this is that there is no basis to it. The Pen and Paper version of Combat Expertise (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#combatExpertise) makes no mention of a delay in your actions. You simply have to declare you do, but it doesn't take away from the number of actions you can perform within the round. The only think I can see to explain the delay is that it's there to represent the fact that you're loosing the +5 bonus until your next action, but that makes no sense.

First of all, a 30 seconds cooldown is way too long. If it's there to represent a round, then it should be shortened to two or six seconds, which are the two units DDO uses to define a round within time.


Secondly, if you go with logic, any cooldown makes no sense! Basicly, how Combat Expertise behaves in D&D is to represent that, while you're casting your spell, you're loosing the bonus to AC as you're concentrated casting the spell. So, wouldn't be the best way to implement Combat Expertise be to rather remove the bonus to AC while you're casting and return it once the spellcasting animation is over?

Thirdly, why do I have to turn it on myself? Couldn't it shut itself for the time casting the spell and turn itself back on without stopping me from moving?
It'd be a way to throw a bone to a lot of AC characters out there. Mostly to paladins that have to cast Divine Favor every one or two minutes and rogues who are using a lot of scrolls. But I'm sure there will be more builds gaining from this, or building being created after that change. :)

Thank you,
Borror0

PS: There's a bug with Combat Expertise. At low level, it gives a -5 penalty to attack rolls and a +5 bonus to AC, regardless of your BAB.

Yeah Borro!!!! Thanks for posting this. I agree 100% and would love to see it changed to what your are saying. Supress while casting then back on automatically. :D:D:D

[Cordelia]

Cant argue here. Insightful suggestion, might just be constrained by coding issues involving removing the bonus while casting. /agreed

[Rilen]

Elves are capable of having 21 minutes of Displacement on any character.
Besides, chaining displacement scrolls is costy and slows you down.
First statement was already addressed by another poster.

cost of displacement scrolls - lets say that was not any sort of problem factor at all - cause for many,
myself included, it is not.

use of displacement scrolls "slows you down" - are you being serious Bor? I can activate a scroll
(which starts a visual cooldown timer of 6 sec if you have that option enabled for your UI) and be
back on my weapon and swinging before the timer has counted down past 5. Takes not much longer
than switching weapons in a fight .. or electing to shield block through a round of mob swings,
or kicking off an action boost.

I'm not theorizing this - I do this. I have two melee toons w/o CombEx who self displace off scroll - most fights
are bursty .. I refresh just before entering the next one - I do it on the run or just before stepping into the
fray and popping intimidate. Useful in long protracted fights with mobs who have large pools of HP? No,
better to just let the clr heal you while you apply DPS, agreed .. but general use? It works.

Absolutely not trying to derail a good discussion here - I would not mind seeing a change to the CE timer,
but there should be some penalty for taking an action (like using a scroll) that diverts your attention away from
being a slippery melee machine (ala someone with CombEx up). I'm also not trying to make this a discussion
about displacement and UMD using melee .. so .. maybe disregard all this, but I was trying to point out
an example of something that would be possible if CE was changed as some have suggested .. something
that to me seems out of whack..

just my .02, /shrug. your .02 is worth just as much.
Rilen

PS Bor .. if your suggestion (if I am reading you post correctly) is CE bonus goes away while casting, but the
feat remains active .. and your AC bonus just disappears for some TBD amount of seconds (call it a cooldown)
then I think that is a good start. As it stands I think the cooldown is too long - but just for duration of cast
IMHO is a little too short ..

[Borror0]

Bor .. if your suggestion (if I am reading you post correctly) is CE bonus goes away while casting, but the feat remains active .. and your AC bonus just disappears for some TBD amount of seconds (call it a cooldown) then I think that is a good start. As it stands I think the cooldown is too long - but just for duration of cast IMHO is a little too short ..

I don't care if it's longer than casting time. It can be a fictional casting time that's slightly longer to balance it out. But, it must not turn itself off. I may "stop affecting you" for a while but the stance must stay on. At worse, just estimate the time it currently takes between casting and turning it back on... I don't care. But please no more stance activation each time...

So, we agree? You use your scrolls, get no bonus to AC (nor penalty to attack rolls, CE is 'off' after all) for an amount of seconds that I will leave to Turbine to decide and then CE gets back on and you regain your bonus to AC (and your penalty to attack rolls) unless you have turn Combat Expertise off meanwhile.

[Rilen]

I don't care if it's longer than casting time. It can be a fictional casting time that's slightly longer to balance it out. But, it must not turn itself off. I may "stop affecting you" for a while but the stance must stay on. At worse, just estimate the time it currently takes between casting and turning it back on... I don't care. But please no more stance activation each time...

So, we agree? You use your scrolls, get no bonus to AC (nor penalty to attack rolls, CE is 'off' after all) for an amount of seconds that I will leave to Turbine to decide and then CE gets back on and you regain your bonus to AC (and your penalty to attack rolls) unless you have turn Combat Expertise off meanwhile.
Yes my friend - I would definately agree with that.

[Borror0]

Yes my friend - I would definately agree with that.

Cool. :)

[krud]

I don't care if it's longer than casting time. It can be a fictional casting time that's slightly longer to balance it out. But, it must not turn itself off. I may "stop affecting you" for a while but the stance must stay on. At worse, just estimate the time it currently takes between casting and turning it back on... I don't care. But please no more stance activation each time...

So, we agree? You use your scrolls, get no bonus to AC (nor penalty to attack rolls, CE is 'off' after all) for an amount of seconds that I will leave to Turbine to decide and then CE gets back on and you regain your bonus to AC (and your penalty to attack rolls) unless you have turn Combat Expertise off meanwhile.

/agree.

It does seem like a better solution. I certainly would benefit on my ftr/rog and my paladin. You may want to add searching and disabling traps to the things that temporarily deactivate the AC bonus (yes, this would hurt my ftr/rog but is probably similar to casting as far as CE is concerned).

[Borror0]

You may want to add searching and disabling traps to the things that temporarily deactivate the AC bonus.

Requires more coding, and I think everyone could care any less if your rogue has an higher AC while doing the traps...:D

[Kistilan]

Except that Power Attack never turns itself off, not even when you die.

You're missing my point here, that part wasn't arguing about CE turning off automatically, it was about Declaring using CE, in response to your message about simply declaring to use CE in pnp, I was pointing out that in a sense you do the same thing by clicking the button.

My argument for it not turning back on automatically is that Casters typically don't draw aggro until right after their spell is cast, which is why being vulnerable during the time just when you are casting the spell does not specifically hurt casters.

Imagine for a second casting a fireball that doesn't kill everything. I know, a far-fetched idea, but it could happen.

Imagine then being agro'd and of course your party being upset at you as the caster. This again a far-fetched idea.

But then imagine that you want to cast more spells while maintaining the best possible defense because, hey, a few somethings are very interested in you and you're very interested in staying alive.

So maybe you'll take a Defensive Posture. Heck, maybe if I were a wizard I'd even activate Combat Expertise and then continue to cast spells because no one else seems to be able to kill these things for me fast enough.

Voila, Combat Expertise while casting becomes important.

I've got to read my pnp book.

The full PnP 3.5 Combat Expertise Rule:

Combat Expertise [General]
Prerequisite: Int (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Intelligence) 13.

Benefit: When you use the attack action or the full attack action in melee, you can take a penalty of as much as –5 on your attack roll (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Attack_Roll) and add the same number (+5 or less) as a dodge bonus to your Armor Class (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Armor_Class). This number may not exceed your base attack bonus (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Base_Attack_Bonus). The changes to attack rolls (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Attack_Roll) and Armor Class (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Armor_Class) last until your next action.

Normal: A character without the Combat Expertise feat (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Feats) can fight defensively while using the attack or full attack action to take a –4 penalty on attack rolls (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Attack_Roll) and gain a +2 dodge bonus to Armor Class (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Armor_Class).



Here's an Official Ruling on spellcasting and combat expertise. Basically, it should stay active if using a touch-attack spell or quickened spell:

Combat expertise requires you to attack in melee, which typically eats away a standard action at least. So you are left with just a move and a swift action to cast your spells. Note that you cannot activate expertise as part of casting a spell unless it requires you to make a melee attack (as might be the case for touch attack spells)

[Aspenor]

I am amazed nobody has mentioned this from what I've seen....

In PnP you must declare which enemy your CE works against. It can only be used against one enemy per round. If DDO incorporated that, then Borro0 might be on to something.

[Angelus_dead]

In PnP you must declare which enemy your CE works against. It can only be used against one enemy per round. If DDO incorporated that, then Borro0 might be on to something.
That is totally false.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#combatExpertise

[DaveyCrockett]

I am amazed nobody has mentioned this from what I've seen....

In PnP you must declare which enemy your CE works against. It can only be used against one enemy per round. If DDO incorporated that, then Borro0 might be on to something.

That must be some lame house rule. Certainly not in any PnP I've ever played.

[Borror0]

In PnP you must declare which enemy your CE works against.

That's Dodge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#dodge).

[Aspenor]

That's Dodge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#dodge).

Oh. Well then ignore me :)

Oh, and I know A-D spent a lot of energy to not scream WRONG!!!!! Kinda made me chuckle. :)

[Borror0]

Oh. Well then ignore me :)

That's what I usually do.:rolleyes:


Oh, and I know A-D spent a lot of energy to not scream WRONG!!!!! Kinda made me chuckle. :)

lol

[Uska]

cant agree needs to be a penalty or theres no point in it.

[Borror0]

cant agree needs to be a penalty or theres no point in it.

There is a penalty! You loose CE for a few seconds. The point is, you don't need to turn it back on all the time, it doesnt start it's cooldown without triggering (happens far too often), you don't forget to turn it back on after casting a spell, etc.

[xberto]

I think CE needs to be changed to work like power attack. When you turn it on, it stays on. We make the decision to use it, we shouldnt need to continually re-decide to use it by activating it again. Thats my opinion. Any word from the devs on this matter?

[jmonty]

excellent thread as usual. ty!

[Lucian_Navarro]

I agree that a change should be made to make this feat desirable.

Currenlty you get the free feat "Defensive Fighting" which has the same restrictions as "Combat Expertise". The only difference is the value of the AC bonus and the Attack reduction. Aside from the other fact that Combat Expertise costs you a feat and requires that you have a minimum of a natural 13 Intelligence.

My suggestion is to keep the toggle so the user can turn it on or off and when the character casts a spell, his/her stats toggle the same way when we attack while moving.

If you have the Spring Attack feat, your attack remains the same while moving so DDO can make our AC toggle while casting.

5 AC is not the end of the world and cause an uproar.

So I say, change Combat Expertise.