Anti-min/maxing?

[ktb]

Having been on Risia for the last day or so, I am seeing that the old model of character generation doesn't quite hold for Monks. Specifically, min/maxing doesn’t seem to work at all. The only dump stat for a monk is Chr and all of the other 5 attributes are important.

Str – As a melee class, this is a major attribute
Dex – Since armor can’t be worn without major disadvantage, Dex is a huge component of A/C
Con – Of obvious importance to boost the d8 hp, it is also of benefit to concentration
Int – Perhaps it’s the “newness” of the class, but I am having a lot of trouble allocating skill points. Concentration is a must, tumble and jump are huge (especially for the water school), and the hide/ms skills are pretty useful for soloing
Wis – As a component of Ki, A/C, Saves, and DC this the big one

Perhaps I am the only one who does not have access to the 32 point builds or a truck load of +2 tomes, but allocating 28 points over all of these is a huge challenge. After allocating 6 points to Str, Dex, Con, and Wis the extra 4 points seem better placed in INT than bumping up any of the other attributes to 16. I have tried some Drow builds, but their racial bonuses don’t seem to fit in with a monk in comparison to Human/WF/Dwarf/Halfling

As such, I find my normal build to be:

Str – 14
Dex – 14
Con - 14
Int – 12
Wis – 14
Chr – 8

If this is correct, it seems to imply that humans and dwarfs are the better choices from a “power” perspective.

Am I missing something?

[Lucian_Navarro]

I am actually doing the same, making a balanced Monk.

STR: 14
DEX:14
CON:14
INT:14
WIS:14
CHA:10

Human, 32 point build and drop +1 or +2 tomes on her.

[wolfy42]

I might suggest that int at least is not required unless you want to snag improved trip etc.

For skills a monk does just fine with an 8 int (max concentration/balance/1 point tumble (dex bonus does the rest, rest into jump.

Cha is a dump stat for most monks but useful for inimidate monks or pally/monk combo's.

Strength is a dump stat mostly for finess based monks (although 14 (12 for halflings) is still prefered).

Con is nice but you can get by with a 12 fairly well due to monk bonuses to hp (especially for certain races).

28 point builds for varius races follow:

Halfling finess:

Str 12 (06)
Dex 20 (16)
Con 10 (02)
Int 08 (00)
Wisdom 12 (04)
Cha 08 (00)

I would go with an 8 con probably myself for the bonus 2 wisdom..but thats me.

Human Strength based:

Str 18 (16)
Dex 14 (06)
Con 10 (02)
Int 08 (00)
Wis 12 (04)
cha 08 (00)

Dwarven strength build:

Str 18 (16)
Dex 14 (06)
Con 12 (02)
int 08 (00)
Wis 12 (04)
Cha 06 (00).

Pretty much the same across the board except you need to decide between wisdom and con on each for 28 point builds.

for 32 you can have both at 14 which is pretty much perfect. With 32 point builds you can have a maxed primary stat (strength or dex) and 14 in all secondary stats with dump stats being int and cha.

[wolfy42]

Quick comment on combat expertese btw.

Getting a 14 int just for combat expertese (or even a 13) is not worth it.

That is 6 stat points that could be spent on wisdom and dex...so unless both are already boosted to the point where they cost more then 1 to raise (or more if a finess based build which is highly likely if your using combat expertese as a monk at all anyway) you actually are losing otu on 3 AC all time time by boosting in to 14.

But Wofly you can get 5 ac from combat expertese so that is still a loss!!

Actually no it isn't because you can get 2 ac all the time from defensive fighting if your eally want.....which is the exact same bonus as combat expertese without having to use a feat (and you get +3 ac all the time along with higher saving throws DCs, max Ki, AB if using finess etc.

Now I admit that the difference between an 18 dex (for a halfling/elf/drow) and a 20 dex costs 6 more points which is enough to get that 14 int you need. More to the point a 19 dex instead of a 20 gives you 3 points to spend...and it may be an option. You can also use a +1 tome to make only a 12 int actually be needed if you really want combat expertese (I can understand it for extreme AC builds.

In that case something like this might be a good idea:

Str 10 (02)
Dex 20 (16 halfling)
con 10 (02)
Wisdom 12 (04)
Int 12 (04 +1 from tome to get CE)
Cha 08 (00)

With a 32 point build you can snag a 14 wisdom and 12 con and reach insane AC's (although yous till get hit on a 20...so why bother?)

[Deaths_ward]

I have 32 point on my main server, but no Risia, so my current monk on risia is.

Lawful Good Drow Monk

STR: 10 (2)
DEX: 16 (6)
CON: 14 (10)
INT: 10 (0)
WIS: 16 (10)
CHA: 10 (0)

which is working out nicely, I took the 14 CON instead of the 18 DEX because I hardly ever turn off the Air Stance so it balances itself out that way.

When it drops live on the home servers I'm planning a human.

STR: 12 (4)
DEX: 16 (10)
CON: 14 (6)
INT: 10 (2)
WIS: 16 (10)
CHA: 8 (0)

If I could get hold of a +2 Int tome before I get him going I'd probably drop STR to 10, and INT to 8 so I could muster up some more constitution.

[rimble]

In that case something like this might be a good idea:

Str 10 (02)
Dex 20 (16 halfling)
con 10 (02)
Wisdom 12 (04)
Int 12 (04 +1 from tome to get CE)
Cha 08 (00)

With a 32 point build you can snag a 14 wisdom and 12 con and reach insane AC's (although yous till get hit on a 20...so why bother?)

You're already at 30 points there, that 10 Strength cost you 4. There's no way I could recommend, even hypothetically, any ability being maxed on the MAD Monk.

[sigtrent]

For pure monks I think there are two good options...

The finesse halfling or elf that has ranged attack options and has a pretty stellar AC and reflex saves etc...

OR

The Human or Dwarven str based monk that kicks AC to the curb for the most part and just beats the stuffing out of stuff...

Personaly I'd be all abotu multi classing with my monks and it makes the field a lot more open...
You have rogue monks who spec for charisma to get UMD and diplomacy. Drow is the likely race here.

You have cleric monks who are just dabbling in monk land for special bennies or split class and run cleric buffs on monk base.

You have dwarven fighter monks using tactics feats

[Strakeln]

Few things:

1) +1 tomes are pretty cheap and easy to come by. You can shave points off in some areas (ex: INT) by utilizing this fact.

2) If you're not min-maxing, don't be afraid of odd stats. You can work it out between tomes, items, and ehancements to land on an even number.

3) We still don't know how the end-end-end-game configuration will work with stats. Will the "highest possible" stat end up being even, or odd? If odd, it would make sense to start off the relevant stat odd as well... so that you fall on an even number at end-end-end game. Just speculation.

[Xaxx]

remember what stances you wanna use also, as you need a 16 in the coresponding stat to get the 3rd stance

[wolfy42]

Ooops sorry, not used to making 28 point builds...yeah you have to drop one of the stats by 2 to make it work for 28 point (my bad on the str costing 4 for a halfling to get to 10).

With 28 point builds I still think a 20 dex is viable for halflings finess builds at least:

Something like this:

Str 10 (04)
Dex 20 (16)
Con 10 (02)
In 08 (00)
wis 14 (06)
cha 06 (00)

Works fine for AC throughout the levels, has a very high AB, great saves and decent hp.

If you really want combat expertese you have to balance it against what your giving up, but you could drop dex to 18 and boost con by 2 and int by 4 (using a +1 int tome to reach 13 for CE).

That is only a net loss of 1 AC and 1 AB (saving throw doesn't matter) for the possible bonus of +3 AC over defensive fighting (so net AC bonus of 2).

Not sure if it is really worth it though just for CE.

[Drider]

Dwarven monk

Str 16
Dex 14
Con 16
Int 8
Wis 16
Cha 6

Those are my starters.

[wolfy42]

Most useful stances so far that I have seen are:

Fire for fast Ki generation at low lvls and strength bonus for strength based DC abilities (stunnig blow/trip etc).

Air for everything (super fast attacks, dex bonus for ac increase and AB increase if using finess, faster ki generation do to more attacks)


Earth which requires con isn't that useful at all.....even lvl 1 can be skipped currently.

Water is nice for the saving throw increases...and useful to take 1 point in for certain situations, but not drastically needed. Reflex saves are so high already and you already get a +2 to dex while in air boosting reflex save another point...so water only really boosts your fort save by 2 at lvl 1 and willpower save by 3....nice, but your saving throws are gonig to be very high anyway so not really worth additional levels in.

Also you only need a 14 base in a state to reach the required 16 with a +2 tome. A 12 is all that is needed for tier 2.

For a finess based buld Air is the clear leader in usefulness post lvl 6 right now (and pretty much before that as well).

For strength based build Air STILL can be the best due to the nice speed increase in attacks. Fire is still easy to keep leveled up for a strength based build anyway though.

So I wouldn't worry somuch right now about hitting tier 2 and 3 on water/earth, they sadly do not seem worth the AP investment right now even if you have the prereqs.

[wolfy42]

Dwarven monk

Str 16
Dex 14
Con 16
Int 8
Wis 16
Cha 6

Those are my starters.

Interesting Drider......could be a fun build....with tons of hp for a monk!!

Very interesting that you went with the 16 wisdom especially since a 14 con and 14 wisdom with the same build would allow you to have an 18 strength (+1 more to dcs, ab, dmg (possibly +2).

Are you planning on putting level up stats into strength or wisdom?

[Drider]

Interesting Drider......could be a fun build....with tons of hp for a monk!!

Very interesting that you went with the 16 wisdom especially since a 14 con and 14 wisdom with the same build would allow you to have an 18 strength (+1 more to dcs, ab, dmg (possibly +2).

Are you planning on putting level up stats into strength or wisdom?

First 4 pts are going into Str and the last one (at level 20) into Wis.

[Rameses]

THE 32pt TWINKED HALFLING MONK should look like this...

Stats
Str 22 (14 base, 2 tome, 6 item)
Dex 28 (16 base, 2 tome, 2 racial enhance, 2 level, 6 item)
Con 19 (11 base, 2 tome, 6 item) ***always farming for a +3 tome from Reaver or Shroud***
Int 13 (11 base, 2 tome)
Wis 28 (15 base, 2 tome, 3 monk enhance, 2 level, 6 item)
Cha 8 (8 base)

Depending on Stance you can add +3 Str / -2 Wis for Fire Stance and so on.
This would be a good Water Stance build for Stunning Fist attacks.

AC break down
10 Base
7 Armor
9 Dex
9 Wis
3 Monk AC
3 Barkskin
1 Haste
5 Protection
1 Feat
1 Size
5 CE
54 total self-buffed AC (before any stances, raid loot, Ranger Barkskin, Paladin Auras are added.)

Hit Points (not spectacular but not totally squishy)
128 Base
64 Con
20 Heroic D.
10 Draconic
36 Toughness
18 Minos Legens
0 Rage
30 GFL
306 standing

[D'rin]

Dwarven monk

Str 16
Dex 14
Con 16
Int 8
Wis 16
Cha 6

Those are my starters.

That is my risia dwarven build right there. With toughness as a class feat and the first tier of dwarven toughness and way of the turtle he has 73 hitpoints at 3rd lvl without any con item.

One reason to have a 16 wisdom is that the fire stance reduces wisdom by 2. Besides with the stance, bullstr you can hit a 22 str right off the start.

[Delzon]

Since the tier 4 element at 18th level will require a base of 18, how is this going to change your stat planning?

[bobbryan2]

From what I've seen... The Breeze stance is looking like the best DPS stance available, so I'm not going to make a character that can't get up to the 18 dexterity. I'll probably throw the TWF feats in so I can switch from kamas to fists as need be.

I'm thining...

16
16
16
8
14
6

With +2's I'll be able to hit the final upgrades in Earth, Fire and Air, and only be missing the final upgrade in water until +4 tomes come out.

[dragonoffrost]

Tier 4 requirements can be reached with tomes and stat increases. So a 14 in two stats can be moved to a 18 pretty easily 2 point for a +2 tome and 2 points from a stat increases can get you 2 18's from 14's by level 16.

[valczir]

I don't have 32 point builds, either, and I've found basically the same thing.

I prefer using a warforged (until they release half-orcs), for various reasons. Some are role-play reasons, others are simply due to the fact that they've been the most fun, so far.

I usually end up with a strength-based build, using mostly the air stance and water attacks (I really don't like the air attacks and finishers).

This is what it usually ends up looking like, at creation:

(I plan to use +1 items and enhancements, at the beginning, to get the odd attributes to be even - I'll probably use +1 tomes, once I get them, but that won't be for a while. I rarely twink my characters at all, and when I do, it's something like a weapon that was put up for auction at a low price - even then, it's just a loan, and my slightly twinked character pays the higher character back, eventually)

str 15 (8 pts)
dex 15 (8 pts)
con 12 (2 pts)
int 10 (2 pts)
wis 13 (8 pts)
cha 6 (0 pts)

Oh, and the reason for the 10 int is that there are four skills I want to keep maxed. I would love to have hide and move silently, but that's a lot of points, and Valczir (the character behind the monk I'm trying to create) doesn't sneak all that often, so I can forego them without messing up his character. Concentration is a must, of course. I hate not being able to see hidden things, so I'm spending points in spot, as well. And then there's Jump and Tumble - while not always useful, they are fun, and they're things needed for this character to feel like Valczir.

I have been taking skill focus: concentration, but I think I'll forego that when I make the character on a normal server. Also, I'll probably wait for level 6 to get stunning fist, as it's relatively rare that I've made it to 15 Ki pre-level 4. I'll most likely take power attack and improved sunder, and I intend to test deflect arrows a bit more than I have been. I hate being hit by ranged attacks.

So I've got my monk feats chosen, but I am not entirely sure what I plan to use for my non-monk feats. I do like active combat, so I may get some other combat feets, like the bleeding one (although it seems to me that it doesn't do all that much damage, after all's said and done).


In all honesty, I haven't been content with any of my characters 'cause I would much rather have a half-orc and because I'm ****ed at the implementation of flurry of blows. I understand (sometimes even like) most of the other changes from the traditional D&D monk, but flurry of blows is essentially supposed to be the monk's alternative to the two weapon fighting chain (when using flurry of blows, you don't count the penalties for wielding a weapon in each hand - just the penalties for using flurry of blows, which effectively acts like wielding a weapon in each hand, although you can use it with any monk weapon, no matter how many weapons you're wielding). Blargh.

[wolfy42]

I don't have 32 point builds, either, and I've found basically the same thing.

I prefer using a warforged (until they release half-orcs), for various reasons. Some are role-play reasons, others are simply due to the fact that they've been the most fun, so far.

I usually end up with a strength-based build, using mostly the air stance and water attacks (I really don't like the air attacks and finishers).

This is what it usually ends up looking like, at creation:

(I plan to use +1 items and enhancements, at the beginning, to get the odd attributes to be even - I'll probably use +1 tomes, once I get them, but that won't be for a while. I rarely twink my characters at all, and when I do, it's something like a weapon that was put up for auction at a low price - even then, it's just a loan, and my slightly twinked character pays the higher character back, eventually)

str 15 (8 pts)
dex 15 (8 pts)
con 12 (2 pts)
int 10 (2 pts)
wis 13 (8 pts)
cha 6 (0 pts)

Oh, and the reason for the 10 int is that there are four skills I want to keep maxed. I would love to have hide and move silently, but that's a lot of points, and Valczir (the character behind the monk I'm trying to create) doesn't sneak all that often, so I can forego them without messing up his character. Concentration is a must, of course. I hate not being able to see hidden things, so I'm spending points in spot, as well. And then there's Jump and Tumble - while not always useful, they are fun, and they're things needed for this character to feel like Valczir.

I have been taking skill focus: concentration, but I think I'll forego that when I make the character on a normal server. Also, I'll probably wait for level 6 to get stunning fist, as it's relatively rare that I've made it to 15 Ki pre-level 4. I'll most likely take power attack and improved sunder, and I intend to test deflect arrows a bit more than I have been. I hate being hit by ranged attacks.

So I've got my monk feats chosen, but I am not entirely sure what I plan to use for my non-monk feats. I do like active combat, so I may get some other combat feets, like the bleeding one (although it seems to me that it doesn't do all that much damage, after all's said and done).


In all honesty, I haven't been content with any of my characters 'cause I would much rather have a half-orc and because I'm ****ed at the implementation of flurry of blows. I understand (sometimes even like) most of the other changes from the traditional D&D monk, but flurry of blows is essentially supposed to be the monk's alternative to the two weapon fighting chain (when using flurry of blows, you don't count the penalties for wielding a weapon in each hand - just the penalties for using flurry of blows, which effectively acts like wielding a weapon in each hand, although you can use it with any monk weapon, no matter how many weapons you're wielding). Blargh.

Quick point I want to make for your character before we go live.

You can attain a decent tumble by investing only 1 point into it at creation and putting the rest into jump.

Since monks do not use armor you will not have a penalty to tumble and it will stop reasonable fall damage just fine with 1 point + dex bonus invested.

Jump on the other hand gains alot from additional points.

Since you can't reach the secondary bonus of tumble without using a spell anyway, 1 point is plenty for almost any non-armor wearing character in my opinion and it saves you 2 additional stat points you can invest somewhere else.

I'm guessing you plan on using +1 tomes at creation (cheap) and then doing shroud runs eventually for +3 tomes on your stats to make them even?

You havn't defined if this is going to be a weapon finess build or strength build....but i am guessing strength based build in which case boosting strength 1 more point at creation instead of getting an 8 int could help alot. With fire stance that puts you at an 18 strength right off the bat which is nice when using a QS especially. By the time you reach lvl 8 you will probably want to be using Wind stance for the extra attack speed but will have a base 18 strength already so it still works great with the QS.

IF you intend on going mainly unarmed/kama though you may want to re-arrange the stats a bit more for higher dex and go finess based. A 13 wisdom is expensive for a WF and it might be best for you to drop that anyway and invest the points elsewhere (dex for instance if finess based and possibly even strength if not).

I don't know the character or at least don't recognize the name (I might know the book if it's from one) but half-orcs are generally strong so I'm guessing strength based. Therefore, maybe something like this for a 32 point build.

Str 17 (13)
Dex 13 (05)
Con 15 (05)
Int 08 (00)
wis 11 (05)
cha 06 (00)

That seems more half ork like to me (although one agile freaking half ork when your done with tomes and enhancements.

With a +1 tome on strength,dex and wisdom an con you end up with this at lvl 1:

Str 18
dex 14
con 16
wis 12

The only problem I see is your going to be restricted to fire or earth stances at tier 3 until you get a +3 dex tome. Wind stance so far seems like the most useful long term so that may hurt.

Anyway just throwing otu some ideas.