So risia testers, any more undocumented "paladin love"?

[sumnz]

Any new spells, or anything that would make me take my paladin off mule status? I wasent holding my breath.

[Solmage]

Well, 2 monk multiclasses amazingly well with paladin so you at least have a good evasion paladin thing that won't get asked to open a lock.. that's sort of like a hidden bonus no? :)

[Asirin]

No sorry they haven't added the pwn everything with a glance clickie yet (crosses fingers).But I'll just have to settle for unlimited insanely high critical smites and the ability to raise dead for free 4 times a rest.Oh and the +5 silver holy burst khopesh isnt a bad stick to poke around with either.....

[Borror0]

Well, 2 monk multiclasses amazingly well with paladin so you at least have a good evasion paladin thing that won't get asked to open a lock.. that's sort of like a hidden bonus no? :)

You forgot the free feats.

[Solmage]

You forgot the free feats.

Well, not exactly, that's the reason why I said it "multiclassed amazingly well" with paladin, just forgot to detail 'why' and only mentioned evasion.


No sorry they haven't added the pwn everything with a glance clickie yet (crosses fingers).But I'll just have to settle for unlimited insanely high critical smites and the ability to raise dead for free 4 times a rest.Oh and the +5 silver holy burst khopesh isnt a bad stick to poke around with either.....

OMG! REALLY! So.. let me get this straight... you get to do about the same damage other classes do consistently for one swing each 90 seconds! That is so awesome! And you get to use 4 raise scrolls for free per shrine, in exchange for what little healing you have. And you can do a little extra damage (but still less than what other classes do) each 6 seconds in exchange for loosing health! That will surely show those that claim paladins still are quite subpar.

I'm sure those developers that stated they're going to be adding more things, such as paladin specific prestige-enhancements lines to continue bolstering paladins so they're up to snuff simply have no idea what they're talking about, the noobs don't realize how uber palis are now.

[Asirin]

Well, not exactly, that's the reason why I said it "multiclassed amazingly well" with paladin, just forgot to detail 'why' and only mentioned evasion.



OMG! REALLY! So.. let me get this straight... you get to do about the same damage other classes do consistently for one swing each 90 seconds! That is so awesome! And you get to use 4 raise scrolls for free per shrine, in exchange for what little healing you have. And you can do a little extra damage (but still less than what other classes do) each 6 seconds in exchange for loosing health! That will surely show those that claim paladins still are quite subpar.

I'm sure those developers that stated they're going to be adding more things, such as paladin specific prestige-enhancements lines to continue bolstering paladins so they're up to snuff simply have no idea what they're talking about, the noobs don't realize how uber palis are now.


Dont pawn your gimp paladin builds off on me mine are actually effective.I'm really sorry your pallie does 30 points of damage a swing but mine dont.I was just commenting that if you add up the nice savings throws,unyielding soverignty ,lay on hands,wand usage,raise dead ability...and having access to the right weapon at any time AND regenerating smites AND divine sacrifice (usable at any time) it adds up 2 much love and I'm quite happy with the improvements.
Of course you have to have a good player behind the paladin swinging the blade or all these improvements are indeed ****.

[SteeleTrueheart]

I would have preferred a Paladin Haste Boost line of enhancements over DS and ES as implemented.

Regenerating Smites is a good thing. How good? We will see, but it is better than a poke in the eye!

I want confirmation though that the costs have come down.

I would also like someone to state whether they did indeed nerf extra Smite to only 1 extra per enhancement.

[Illuminati]

btw the cooldown on DS is not 6 seconds but much lower. Not spammable but pretty much every third swing or so.

[gpk]

DS is a 3 second cooldown as per the later WDAs.
DS + all the Smite stuff is crappy as predicted (it didn't take a genius to see this coming), no real surprises there.

It should be noted however that chaining DS, Smites or other "special attacks" is as cluncky with holding right to mouse button down to autoattack, sometiems it works properly sometimes it doesn't , even though you see the special attack icon flash indicating it was triggered.

DS also seems to be missing it's + to crit modifer atm on Risia.

Nothing to remove your pally off mule status from that I can tell...

[Mhykke]

I would also like someone to state whether they did indeed nerf extra Smite to only 1 extra per enhancement.

It is true. 8 max smites per rest w/ extra smite 4 enhancement. Played around w/ my pally on risia a little this morn.

[Ralmeth]

I just tested things out on Risia and didn't see any new spells (I don't have 4th level spells, so I couldn't check them). Everything else looked just like they posted it would be. I love the 6 second cooldown on intimidate. That will be really helpful on my intimitank. I haven't done too much testing yet, but taking the extra smites and exalted smite looks like it could be good against bosses because you can use them every few seconds or so. Not sure about divine sacrifice. If this pairs well with a bodyfeeder weapon which I don't have then it might be cool. If not, then I'll pass. The raise dead ability seems cool, but I hate the prereqs and you would be limited to the limited number of LOH you have. So perhaps this would give you 1 or 2 raise deads (with the others going to normal LOH). Very expensive in AP, perhaps just enough to get the Cleric back up? Divine Righteousness might finally be interesting now that it lasts 60 seconds. I hate being an intimitank going against things you can't intimidate, so this may be useful (haven't tested this out yet in a group and whether you could hold agro with it on).

As for monks, it may be interesting to do a 2 level splash, as you would get:
-Evasion
-2 bonus feats, though these need to be monk class feats. The useful feats I found might be: CE, Dodge, Power Attack, Toughness, and possibly lightning reflexes (if you need to get your reflex save up for evasion).
-Really good bonuses to your saves. You would have +3 to Fort, reflex and will, as opposed to 2 levels of rogue that give you just +3 to reflex and nothing to fort or will.
-The same BAB as Rogue (I.e. you lose out on 1 BAB taking 2 lvls of Rogue or Monk, as oppose to 2 more lvls of Pali or Fighter)
-And the big one...No UMD as a class skill (as opposed to 2 lvls of Rogue). This is the main reason to possibly not go with 2 lvls of Monk.
-Most of the monk enhancements for 2 lvls would not benefit a Paladin. Of course you would likely want to put those APs into Paladin stuff anyway. (they do look like cool enhancements if you are just a monk). You do get access to +1 to Wisdom (big deal IMHO) as opposed to +1 to Dex (if you go Rogue). There are also the +1 to monk skills at the cost of 1AP each (spot, balance, etc...not a big deal).

[Dexxaan]

Well, 2 monk multiclasses amazingly well with paladin so you at least have a good evasion paladin thing that won't get asked to open a lock.. that's sort of like a hidden bonus no? :)

Yeah right....I will Insta-boot the first Paladin-"Tank" build I catch wearing a kimono!"

(Unless it´s a Toon from Sigtrent or a handful of people I trust)

[sumnz]

No sorry they haven't added the pwn everything with a glance clickie yet (crosses fingers).But I'll just have to settle for unlimited insanely high critical smites and the ability to raise dead for free 4 times a rest.Oh and the +5 silver holy burst khopesh isnt a bad stick to poke around with either.....

I dont buy for a second you have a paladin, for one thing its not on your list of characters. And for another you wouldnt be praising these pathetic additions. Raise dead and better dps than a +5 silver holy burst kobesh both came on my greensteel weapon that took me all of five shroud runs to make. And as for laughable high critical smites all of them put together are outdone even on a boss fight by a level one rogue or fighter haste enhancement.

[Borror0]

Nvm.

[elraido]

I dont buy for a second you have a paladin, for one thing its not on your list of characters. And for another you wouldnt be praising these pathetic additions. Raise dead and better dps than a +5 silver holy burst kobesh both came on my greensteel weapon that took me all of five shroud runs to make. And as for laughable high critical smites all of them put together are outdone even on a boss fight by a level one rogue or fighter haste enhancement.

If you want DPS build a Barb. If you want a well rounded character, build a Paladin. I am just tired of people bashing the new stuff for paladins when they haven't even played with them yet.....Everything is doom and gloom.

[Borror0]

I am just tired of people bashing the new stuff for paladins when they haven't even played with them yet.....Everything is doom and gloom.

Dude, it's on Risia...

And the new paladin stuff sucks. With Exalted Smite IV, you don't even beat the DPS of Fighter's Haste Boost I. That's 20 APs versus 1...

[Illuminati]

Forget the pure Paladin, it's worth will be calculated when we recieve the PrC stuff they are working on.

As it were, think of the Paladin in your group as an extra equipment slot. If he/she has the +4 Resist Aura (rare), then dump your resis item and grab something else.

BTW for the new raids, the 'Pali Love Mod' may be in items, not Enhancement/Feats.

Holy Avenger, ML 14
Paladin Only, 0 UMD
Greatsword, 17-20 Critical Range
3d6 + 5, Pure Good, Holy, True Law, Good Blast, Bodyfeeder
3x Per Day, Greater Dispell, Caster Level 18.

[elraido]

Forget the pure Paladin, it's worth will be calculated when we recieve the PrC stuff they are working on.

As it were, think of the Paladin in your group as an extra equipment slot. If he/she has the +4 Resist Aura (rare), then dump your resis item and grab something else.

BTW for the new raids, the 'Pali Love Mod' may be in items, not Enhancement/Feats.

Holy Avenger, ML 14
Paladin Only, 0 UMD
Greatsword, 17-20 Critical Range
3d6 + 5, Pure Good, Holy, True Law, Good Blast, Bodyfeeder
3x Per Day, Greater Dispell, Caster Level 18.

If they are coming out with that, why am I making my all positive greensteel khopesh. good gravy. About time they would make a "holy avenger"....but only so much cooler than a real one. Oh yeah, where did you find that?

[Guaire]

BTW for the new raids, the 'Pali Love Mod' may be in items, not Enhancement/Feats.

Holy Avenger, ML 14
Paladin Only, 0 UMD
Greatsword, 17-20 Critical Range
3d6 + 5, Pure Good, Holy, True Law, Good Blast, Bodyfeeder
3x Per Day, Greater Dispell, Caster Level 18.

:eek::eek::eek:

Gonna repeat the question above... Where did you find that? Please tell me it has some dev backing. That would work quite splendidly with Bladesworn transformation on us toaster pallys.:D

[Illuminati]

Also has a x3 Critical!

BTW, I used my imagination, something lacking on these boards when conspiring the worth and direction of the Paladin =p

Seriously gang, Paladins ARE NOT and WILL NEVER BE a DPS class. They are a hybrid of sorts that strengthen a group and compliment it when/if they are built to do what Palys' do.

The DPS isn't as horrid as most would claim either. The problem with this 'DnD' mmo is that most are playing their toons for the pure red numbers and not the role playing component.

There are some sick Pally builds out there that are greatly complimented by this new mod.

[Blazer]

Holy Avenger, ML 14
Paladin Only, 0 UMD
Greatsword, 17-20 [ed] x3 Critical Range
3d6 + 5, Pure Good, Holy, True Law, Good Blast, Bodyfeeder
3x Per Day, Greater Dispell, Caster Level 18.

As cool as this item would be, any splash pally could use it also. I'm pretty sure the cry for "pally love" was intended for the folks who have an overwhelming majority of levels in paladin (thinking at least 11+, if not pure).

Nice imagination regardless Illu. :)

[Bunker]

No more excuses in the shroud:
1. Weapons conjured by the Holy Sword spell and arrows created by the Arcane Archer enhancement are no longer destroyed at the end of a dungeon. These items now persist until you have been logged out for half an hour or more.

2. The weapons created by a Paladin's Holy Sword spell now defeat byeshk, silver, and cold iron damage reductions.

I also believe the weapons will now be +5 Holy "burst" and if that is true, all paladins now have an above average weapon for the pit fiend. No more words of wisdom "the cloudburst is a great pit fiend weapon" coming from unequiped pallys.

[Illuminati]

As a builder and player in a Raiding guild I can sympothize with the Paly's out there with higher Cha than Str but most are ok, just need something a little more exciting in their toons.

If I were a dev, I would put some effort into either itemization or PrC stuff for Paladins much sooner than Mod8.

I would also add some fighter love since all other classes seem to be fairly good at this point.

[Illuminati]

No more excuses in the shroud:
1. Weapons conjured by the Holy Sword spell and arrows created by the Arcane Archer enhancement are no longer destroyed at the end of a dungeon. These items now persist until you have been logged out for half an hour or more.

2. The weapons created by a Paladin's Holy Sword spell now defeat byeshk, silver, and cold iron damage reductions.

I also believe the weapons will now be +5 Holy "burst" and if that is true, all paladins now have an above average weapon for the pit fiend. No more words of wisdom "the cloudburst is a great pit fiend weapon" coming from unequiped pallys.

Are those bound? I forget and it would definately help Pallys get on the invite list a lot more often =)

[Mhykke]

Are those bound? I forget and it would definately help Pallys get on the invite list a lot more often =)

Yep, bound...so paladins can't even be the weapon vendor for shroud runs. :D

[Gunga]

Yep, bound...so paladins can't even be the weapon vendor for shroud runs. :D

It wouldn't make sense if they weren't...

[sumnz]

No more excuses in the shroud:
1. Weapons conjured by the Holy Sword spell and arrows created by the Arcane Archer enhancement are no longer destroyed at the end of a dungeon. These items now persist until you have been logged out for half an hour or more.

2. The weapons created by a Paladin's Holy Sword spell now defeat byeshk, silver, and cold iron damage reductions.

I also believe the weapons will now be +5 Holy "burst" and if that is true, all paladins now have an above average weapon for the pit fiend. No more words of wisdom "the cloudburst is a great pit fiend weapon" coming from unequiped pallys.

Actually they are not bound now, I can give them out but they crumble if you leave the instance. So if a group is really desperate for pit fiend weapons they can invite a paladin, have him hand out random magic swords, then bugger off so they can fill his spot with another dwarven barbarian.

[Asirin]

Actually they are not bound now, I can give them out but they crumble if you leave the instance. So if a group is really desperate for pit fiend weapons they can invite a paladin, have him hand out random magic swords, then bugger off so they can fill his spot with another dwarven barbarian.
Lol dwarven barbarians are for weak minded idiots who dont know how to do more than RAGE and cliq on a mouse and hopefully hit whatever is in front of em.
They cant even wipe thier ASS without a cleric holding the toilet paper.
Im sorry your **** builds make you ignorant to a REAL paladins capabilities but if ya need to really see DPS feel free to look me up I'll be more than glad to give you instruction on rolling and playing good charachters(yer first job will be to REROLL everything you have)

[Bunker]

Actually they are not bound now, I can give them out but they crumble if you leave the instance. So if a group is really desperate for pit fiend weapons they can invite a paladin, have him hand out random magic swords, then bugger off so they can fill his spot with another dwarven barbarian.

Did you read what you quoted me. The new mod will make them so they dont' destroy on exit of instance.

[Borror0]

Lol dwarven barbarians are for weak minded idiots who dont know how to do more than RAGE and cliq on a mouse and hopefully hit whatever is in front of em.
They cant even wipe thier ASS without a cleric holding the toilet paper.
Im sorry your **** builds make you ignorant to a REAL paladins capabilities but if ya need to really see DPS feel free to look me up I'll be more than glad to give you instruction on rolling and playing good charachters(yer first job will be to REROLL everything you have)

Asirin, I'm impressed by your level of maturity.

So, because we say that paladin are the weakest class, you go and tell us that we don't know how to build a paladin? Yeah, right.

What you fail to understand is that while we say paladin are the weakest class, we're not saying they're weak. It's simply that in comparison to the other's class power, they're way behind. They're still playable, there will be nothnig stopping from completing a quest with lots of paladins in a group (except some quests where the party needs a lot of DPS like Running with the Devils on Elite). They're simply mis-adpated to today's end game.

Why a Shroud party would prefer a barbarian over a paladin is simple. The Shroud is a raid, for that reason it is nearly impossible to complete without having a few party members fulfilling the function of an healer, unless all party members can easily take care of themselves. Most Normal Shroud runs involve a few Heal scrolls from the clerics during part 4 and 5. Basicly, the melees will be actually having clerics babysitting them all the time. So, while the barbarian would need to have the cleric "holding the paper toillet" for them, it's not a drawback. However, a paladin's lower DPS is, unless his AC and Intimidate are high enough (both), which is not easy.

I'm quite sure smnz knows how to build a paladin as much as you do, that's not the problem.

The problem is that a well-built paladin isn't contributing as much to the party as most other classes do.

[Asirin]

Asirin, I'm impressed by your level of maturity.

So, because we say that paladin are the weakest class, you go and tell us that we don't know how to build a paladin? Yeah, right.

What you fail to understand is that while we say paladin are the weakest class, we're not saying they're weak. It's simply that in comparison to the other's class power, they're way behind. They're still playable, there will be nothnig stopping from completing a quest with lots of paladins in a group (except some quests where the party needs a lot of DPS like Running with the Devils on Elite). They're simply mis-adpated to today's end game.

Why a Shroud party would prefer a barbarian over a paladin is simple. The Shroud is a raid, for that reason it is nearly impossible to complete without having a few party members fulfilling the function of an healer, unless all party members can easily take care of themselves. Most Normal Shroud runs involve a few Heal scrolls from the clerics during part 4 and 5. Basicly, the melees will be actually having clerics babysitting them all the time. So, while the barbarian would need to have the cleric "holding the paper toillet" for them, it's not a drawback. However, a paladin's lower DPS is, unless his AC and Intimidate are high enough (both), which is not easy.

I'm quite sure smnz knows how to build a paladin as much as you do, that's not the problem.

The problem is that a well-built paladin isn't contributing as much to the party as most other classes do.
I see ...

Err you fergot to mention well played but whatever....I tell ya what take a screen shot of yer best non crit DPS on the Pit-Fiend.
I'm dying to see this UBER DPS YOU ARE DISHING OUT on your barb.
Dont just tell me your doing more damage than me,show me and I'll shut up (remember i said non-critical)

[Borror0]

Dont just tell me your doing more damage than me, show me and I'll shut up

Sure, however, I don't play a barbarian. Want me to calculate it for you?

[Inspire]

Sure, however, I don't play a barbarian. Want me to calculate it for you?


Please Note That Damage Numbers Do Vary Quite A Bit Depending On Party Make-Up EG: Warchanter vs Spellsinger Is 2 Damage Per Swing, Compared To No Bard At All, *I Assume Spellsinger*

On Normal (Assuming Inspire Courage/Double Madstone/Rage Spell/Barb Rage/*Not Including Choker Or Damage Boost*):

Woad - +5 Holy Silver GA of TS 2%
Average: 68-72 + 2d6 Per Swing (Crit x3 17-20/200+) Seeker +6
*Bonus* Crushing Wave Guard x1 And Backstabber's Gloves

Pearce - Dual Deathnip/Deathnip +3 Transmuting Heavy Pick of Destruction
Average: (Main Hand) 37-45 (Crit x4 15-20 +3d6/200+) Seeker +8
Average: (Off Hand) Deathnip: 23-30 (Crit x4 15-20 +3d6/160+) +3 Trans Dest: 30-34 (Crit x4 17-20/160+)
*Bonus* Crushing Wave Guard x2 (Average 1-2x Per Guard Per Round *Bludgeon Is Negated By Pit Fiend DR Average 7-9 Damage Per Wave, Frost Damage Is 28-35 Per Wave (3 Waves)) And Backstabber's Gloves

Will Edit When They Are Off Timer But I Wrote These Numbers Down On Woad's 13th Completion and Pearce's 16th Comlpetion

By The Way- To The Best Of My Knowledge Fortification Says At 50% Have Done 3 Elite Completions, And Have Had No Abnormal Trouble Critting In Z4 or Z5.

I Dont Not Think Is The Best Damage Numbers Personally I Think 2 Mineral Khopesh's Holy/Acid Burst/Acid Blast Will Do (2d6)(1d6)(2d10)(1d6)(2d10)(2d10)(4d6)(1d4) *Not Including Resistance To Acid Or Base Damage Numbers Or Misc Damage Numbers AKA Sneak Attack Etc.*

Waiting On Greensteel Heavy Picks!!! Dont Worry Im Not Holding My Breath

Did It For You Borror. :D

Woad's Damage Is Actually Higher Now With A +3 Str Tome And I Respec'd For Damage Boost 3.

[Asirin]

Sure, however, I don't play a barbarian. Want me to calculate it for you?
Sure I have that "fuzzy math" goin on do the numbers for me.....

I'm figuring about 50-60 points a non critical swing with power attack and quad rage and a decent weapon am I gettin warm?

[Inspire]

My 2WF Barbarian (Thelanis) Pearce- (Dual Deathnip)

Main Hand Scores:
(Combat): You hit Arraetrikos for 218 points of pierce damage.
(Combat): You hit Arraetrikos for 215 points of pierce damage.
(Combat): You hit Arraetrikos for 221 points of pierce damage.

My 2HF Barbarian (Thelanis) Woad- (+5 Holy Silver Greataxe TS2%)

Scores:
(Combat): You hit Arraetrikos for 212 points of slash damage.
(Combat): You hit Arraetrikos for 212 points of slash damage.
(Combat): You hit Arraetrikos for 208 points of slash damage.

*Note 17-20 Crit, Unlike Pearce 15-20 Both Hands*
*Note Boost III, Unlike Pearce Boost IV*

[mgoldb2]

Sure I have that "fuzzy math" goin on do the numbers for me.....

I'm figuring about 50-60 points a non critical swing with power attack and quad rage and a decent weapon am I gettin warm?

nothing fuzzy about the hard numbers

Min 2 maul

9 damage (average of 2d8)
5 enchantment bonus
27 (46str)
16 (power attack 3)
8 warchanter bard
1 preyer
7 (average of 2d6 holy damage)
=73 average damage (could roll higher on 2d8 and the 2d6 to be over 80 damage and on glancing blow swings that an additional 30 damage easily going over 100)

This not even max could get higher str and damage boost

(slight edit caught a slight calculation mistake should all be correct now)

[Bunker]

With any class there are strength and weakness. DISCLAIMER: IF YOU HAVE NEVER PLAYED A CERTAIN CLASS, YOU SHOULD HAVE NO ROOM TO COMMENT.

Situation 1. My lvl 16 paladin can go thru quests like Rainbow and Collencance(sp) solo without leaving and succeed on difficulty Hard. He might use 10 healing pots and 5-10 charges on a cure serious wand. And yes, his base con is only 9. (probably because he was the first drow ever created by me and first paladin ever created by me. I dont' reroll.)

Situation 2. My lvl 16 paladin does about 45-60 dmg(125 avg on crit) with a +5 Holy Silver Khopesh of Shattermantle on the Pit Fiend. Save aside seeing as I am a paladin, so they are quite high, I have no evasion so a Fireball to the eye still can hurt. But I do battle with between 350-400 hp. Now keep in mind that I'm sword/board.

Summation: The shroud and Pit Fiend is one quest/one boss vs. all the other quests in the game. Does he rank #1 on dps vs the big nasty, no. But back when the cap was lower and drow first came out, he was always "last man standing" against bosses like velah and other quest big names. Paladins are not a gimped class, they are a prefered class by gamers that want something more then "just" dps.

Now I have played every class in the game except ranger to lvl 16/cap. I have earned the ability to comment on whether paladins are bad/good. You will never see me say that my paladin can out kill out dps over a capable barbarian or like minded dps build, but I her is a comment to all ppl that say they are gimped completely:

ANYONE THAT SAYS A CERTAIN CLASS IS GIMPED, WORTHLESS, LAME, PROBABLY DOES NTO ENJOY PLAYING IT AND SHOULDN'T.

But that doesn't mean they are not a powerful class in the ddo realm.

[Asirin]

My 2WF Barbarian (Thelanis) Pearce- (Dual Deathnip)

Main Hand Scores:
(Combat): You hit Arraetrikos for 218 points of pierce damage.
(Combat): You hit Arraetrikos for 215 points of pierce damage.
(Combat): You hit Arraetrikos for 221 points of pierce damage.

My 2HF Barbarian (Thelanis) Woad- (+5 Holy Silver Greataxe TS2%)

Scores:
(Combat): You hit Arraetrikos for 212 points of slash damage.
(Combat): You hit Arraetrikos for 212 points of slash damage.
(Combat): You hit Arraetrikos for 208 points of slash damage.

*Note 17-20 Crit, Unlike Pearce 15-20 Both Hands*
*Note Boost III, Unlike Pearce Boost IV*

Now we are gettin somewhere....actual numbers :)

Obviously you have a solid build with optimal damage and I wish every barb running blindly into the Pit Fiends arms had those numbers and could prove it.
And by the way I mean without suffix/prefix damage non critical!!!!!!!what is your BASE damage show me a screenshot.

[Inspire]

With any class there are strength and weakness. DISCLAIMER: IF YOU HAVE NEVER PLAYED A CERTAIN CLASS, YOU SHOULD HAVE NO ROOM TO COMMENT.

Situation 1. My lvl 16 paladin can go thru quests like Rainbow and Collencance(sp) solo without leaving and succeed on difficulty Hard. He might use 10 healing pots and 5-10 charges on a cure serious wand. And yes, his base con is only 9. (probably because he was the first drow ever created by me and first paladin ever created by me. I dont' reroll.)

Situation 2. My lvl 16 paladin does about 45-60 dmg(125 avg on crit) with a +5 Holy Silver Khopesh of Shattermantle on the Pit Fiend. Save aside seeing as I am a paladin, so they are quite high, I have no evasion so a Fireball to the eye still can hurt. But I do battle with between 350-400 hp. Now keep in mind that I'm sword/board.

Summation: The shroud and Pit Fiend is one quest/one boss vs. all the other quests in the game. Does he rank #1 on dps vs the big nasty, no. But back when the cap was lower and drow first came out, he was always "last man standing" against bosses like velah and other quest big names. Paladins are not a gimped class, they are a prefered class by gamers that want something more then "just" dps.

Now I have played every class in the game except ranger to lvl 16/cap. I have earned the ability to comment on whether paladins are bad/good. You will never see me say that my paladin can out kill out dps over a capable barbarian or like minded dps build, but I her is a comment to all ppl that say they are gimped completely:

ANYONE THAT SAYS A CERTAIN CLASS IS GIMPED, WORTHLESS, LAME, PROBABLY DOES NTO ENJOY PLAYING IT AND SHOULDN'T.

But that doesn't mean they are not a powerful class in the ddo realm.

Agreed With Everything EXCEPT, Butch Can Out DPS A Gimp Like Woad Anyday.

[Inspire]

Now we are gettin somewhere....actual numbers :)

Obviously you have a solid build with optimal damage and I wish every barb running blindly into the Pit Fiends arms had those numbers and could prove it.
And by the way I mean without suffix/prefix damage non critical!!!!!!!what is your BASE damage show me a screenshot.

Base Damage Is In The Post Above The Critical One.

Edit: I Dont Count Anything But Base Damage Usually.

[Borror0]

Sure I have that "fuzzy math" goin on do the numbers for me...

Ok, let's have so fun.

I'll be assuming +2 Transmuters of Greater Evil Outsider Bane

Str: 46 (+18)
18 Base
4 Levels
6 Item
2 Tome
10 Greater Rage w/ enhancements
4 Madstone Rage
2 Rage potion

So, I'll calculate both ThF and TwF.

Two-handed fighting

He'll be dwarf, simply because that's most common and was originaly suggested.

Damage: +59
+27 Str
+16 PA
+8 warchanter
+6 weapon
+2 Dwarven Axe Damage

So, it'll range from 60+3 to 72+18.

Now, taking in consideration his 50% Fortification and Critical Rage II.

18/20 * 65,5 + (196,5 + 18) * 2/20 + 10,5 = 90,8

That's omitting glancing blows which are of about 32,1 on average.


Two-weapon fighting

A khopesh will be used to calculate the DPS this time.

Damage: +48 (main hand)
+18 Str
+16 PA
+8 warchanter
+6 weapon

Damage: +39 (offhand)
+9 Str
+16 PA
+8 warchanter
+6 weapon

So, it'll range from 49+3 to 56+18 in his main hand, and 40+3 to 47+12 in his offhand.

Now, taking in consideration his 50% Fortification and Critical Rage II.

17/20 * 52,5 + (157,5 + 18) * 3/20 + 10,5 = 81,45
17/20 * 43,5 + (130,5 + 18) * 3/20 + 10,5 = 69,75

[Bunker]

Agreed With Everything EXCEPT, Butch Can Out DPS A Gimp Like Woad Anyday.

Thx Bro.

/cheers

[Borror0]

Now we are gettin somewhere....actual numbers :)

It's just that it's clearly not the first time we have to post such numbers... so we omit them now.:D

[Inspire]

It's just that it's clearly not the first time we have to post such numbers... so we omit them now.:D

For Your Consideration Post #98127319082731, :rolleyes:

[Inspire]

Thx Bro.

/cheers

Heh, Heck Butch Was One Of The Main Reasons I Built A Paladin... Gimp? I Think Not.

Thx, Again For The Pally Advice Btw.

[Bunker]

I have to say that the majority of players that say paladins are gimped are players that have never rolled one past low levels.

[Inspire]

I Think Im Gonna Have To Hunt Down These "Bad" Paladins That Are Giving The Rest Of Us A Bad Name.

Guess My Paladin Has To Pull Out His Soap Box Again...

[Borror0]

I have to say that the majority of players that say paladins are gimped are players that have never rolled one past low levels.

rofl?! Past low levels?! Paladins shine at low levels. It's at end game they peak and become weaker.

Again, we're not saying they're gimped... but that all your other toons are probably better.

[Bunker]

rofl?! Past low levels?! Paladins shine at low levels. It's at end game they peak and become weaker.

Again, we're not saying they're gimped... but that all your other toons are probably better.

Again, it depends what situation are they worse or better. Paladins have there place, and you should know Borror. For someone that has opinions and comments in many areas, I would think you would be a "outside the box" kind of person. But I could be wrong.

[Borror0]

Paladins have there place, and you should know Borror. For someone that has opinions and comments in many areas, I would think you would be a "outside the box" kind of person.

The problem with paladins is that they are so focused on their defensive abilities, but lack synergy to go with that high focus on defensive abilities. Survivability isn't bad, after all, that's what dwarves are so popular for. The problem is that in this DPS-heavy metagame, being good for defense doesn't cut it. Even though you barely take any damage, it doesn't mean it's any beneficial to the party, at all.

I've played with you many times, so I know you're a good player.
Don't take the following comment as fails in your build, but rather area where paladins, overall, fail for as long as they stay pure.

And actually, that's the sad part.

An high AC may hurt the party more than anything else, even though you may get only hit on 20s. Like I've said, paladins lack synergies. They're highly focused on defensive capacities and AC, but the number one feat for AC, Combat Expertise, isn't synergical with paladins who need to keep tossing Divine Favor up to not lag further more behind in the DPS department. In the same way, they are focused on AC, but they do not get access to the AoE taunt that Intimidate is.

That alone hurts them a lot. When your AC is avoiding damage for yourself, it's one thing. When it's avoiding damage to the rest of the party... it's another. Your AC benefits are multiplied! First, because you do not only cover your damage, but because you actually steal aggro more often. No matter your opinion on a paladin's DPS, there is no way one can argue that a good paladin will never out-DPS a good barbarian, or a good ranger, or a good warchanter, or a good rogue. And on paper, the fighter even in S&B, in practice that will mostly depends on who gets the first swing... but a good S&B fighter has Intimidate so. A paladin will be out-DPS'd by a non-S&D fighter.

The lack of synergy is also oberved with Madstone Rage. Madstone Rage as pretty much become a must have for any self-respecting DPS with the exception of those that use UMD in combat. However, paladins cannot benefit from it as they need to cast it every one or two minutes. So, that puts them further behind in the DPS and HP department (most paladins have lower HP as they have to split themselves thinner at creation).

So, it's that lower DPS, coupled with a lack of synergy for their defensive abilities in a DPS-heavy metagame where lower the party'S DPS should be only done with a trade off as we're mostly playing in a "Kill it before it kills" mentality. It's all about laying the most DPS before the mobs can lay too much DPS on you. Unless you can grab aggro, that AC's benefice is minimal. Saving clerical SPs isn't so much about anymore, than on killing stuff. AC does help, but not enough to out-weight the loss of DPS.

Even Intimitanks suffer that, but at least to a lesser extend.

We would be in pre-module 4 where everyone would have AC and we'd have less this problem. But now, in Module 6, paladins and fighters are pretty much the only two ones with a significant AC. The rest of the classes mostly have given up, but the few rare TwF rangers with favored enemy. Heck, most bards are surprised when asked for Inspire Heroics.

[sigtrent]

I think part of the problem is people make a kind of "palladin substitution" assessment of the class. So if you take a party thus...

Barbarian
Cleric
Sorcerer
Bard
DPS Fighter
Rogue

And then substitute the fighter or barbarian with a paladin and then say "look the dps went down!"

But it kind of misses the whole idea that a party should take advantage of its strengths, whatever they happen to be. While the paladin provides less DPS than the barbarian (or the fighter or rogue if you make those substitutions) he also is not going to take nearly as much healing mana from the cleric/bard. He also can bring along his own resurection uses further saving cleric mana and resources. The paladin can do resists for the party, he can cast some fo the buffs a cleric might normal throw and so on. This lets the casters do more damage and control casting. Overall the party is just as effective as before, its just that rolls have shifted around a bit.

Barbarians need support, as do pure fighters. Pure paladins pretty much can take care of themselves and free up other party members to do their jobs. And while paladin damage is not as good as other combat classes, it isn't irrelivent. I think a good paladin build should have power attack and carry a two handed weapon for when AC just isn't an issue and DPS is. They can hit a good 70% of a DPS class that way.

Folks seem to wave away the new resurection LOH benefits as well as the similar faith lines, but there is great synergy in having the most survivable member of the party able to quickly raise the dead and thow a quick heal at them. Barbarians and Fighters (in terms of class) just can't do that sort of thing and are not nearly as survivable agaisnt all manner of threats. If dispelled a barb or fitghter has to beg for new resists, a palladin can just re cast it himself and not tie up the casters. A rogue can self cast some spells but has no where near the abbility to resist spells or the HP if no one is there to pull agro off them.

Yes, the metagame favores DPS, but the game itslef allows all manar of characters to thrive and succede and a number of party strategies can be quite effective. The meta game also favors having a cleric and sorcerer but that doesn't mean you can't quest wtihout one.

[Mhykke]

I think part of the problem is people make a kind of "palladin substitution" assessment of the class. So if you take a party thus...

Barbarian
Cleric
Sorcerer
Bard
DPS Fighter
Rogue

And then substitute the fighter or barbarian with a paladin and then say "look the dps went down!"

But it kind of misses the whole idea that a party should take advantage of its strengths, whatever they happen to be. While the paladin provides less DPS than the barbarian (or the fighter or rogue if you make those substitutions) he also is not going to take nearly as much healing mana from the cleric/bard. He also can bring along his own resurection uses further saving cleric mana and resources. The paladin can do resists for the party, he can cast some fo the buffs a cleric might normal throw and so on. This lets the casters do more damage and control casting. Overall the party is just as effective as before, its just that rolls have shifted around a bit.

I think you're making way too many assumptions here. I'm not saying you're wrong, but you can't make such definitive statements. The ratio of how quickly the mob goes down vs resources spent on healing the party is difficult to compare w/ a barb vs. paladin. Can the pally cause less resources to be consumed while killing the mob? Sure. But is it in the realm of possibility that the paladin takes too long to kill the mob, and so having a mob stick around longer to deal damage to the paladin/group causes more resources to be expended? Sure.


Barbarians need support, as do pure fighters. Pure paladins pretty much can take care of themselves and free up other party members to do their jobs.

Again, I wouldn't be too definitive about this either. Sure, paladins save some resources through resisting themselves. But other than the 4 LOHs, the paladin is usually wand whipping himself, and not using heal scrolls (talking generally, as most aren't umd'ing heal scrolls reliably.) High levels are about heal spells. Groups and clerics aren't waiting around for a paladin to wand whip himself back to full. That's just reality. And if we're talking about raid fights, it's the rare paladin that's not the equivalent of the barb in terms of needing heals. The paladin against the pit fiend isn't pulling away and healing himself back up. And if he is, it's drastically lowering group dps, causing the fight to go much longer than it should.


And while paladin damage is not as good as other combat classes, it isn't irrelivent. I think a good paladin build should have power attack and carry a two handed weapon for when AC just isn't an issue and DPS is. They can hit a good 70% of a DPS class that way.

Agree, the damage isn't irrelevant. I don't know if I'd buy the 70% number, but I agree that a paladin can be built where the damage isn't irrelevant. But this would be going against the "paladin is a defensive class" argument.


Folks seem to wave away the new resurection LOH benefits as well as the similar faith lines, but there is great synergy in having the most survivable member of the party able to quickly raise the dead and thow a quick heal at them. Barbarians and Fighters (in terms of class) just can't do that sort of thing and are not nearly as survivable agaisnt all manner of threats. If dispelled a barb or fitghter has to beg for new resists, a palladin can just re cast it himself and not tie up the casters. A rogue can self cast some spells but has no where near the abbility to resist spells or the HP if no one is there to pull agro off them.

Again, I agree w/ you on the resists.

But as to the raise capability? That is one of the arguments that I completely disagree with. When I first saw the ability to raise dead, I thought "cool, that'll help." And then I saw the prereqs. Taking those prereqs (like paladin devotion) probably means the paladin is going the caster/secondary healer route. If that's the case, the party is much better served w/ a bard or a cleric/battlecleric.

An item can easily be crafted to give a true rez. It's only a tier 2 ability. I don't buy that it's out of the realm of possibility for someone to craft this if they desperately wanted to raise dead. Furthermore, they could build w/ the idea of UMD in mind, reaching mid 20's and being able to res w/ 50% or greater success. And finally, they could simply farm for rez rings, or buy one on the AH for various prices (drastically down from what they were.)
The ability for paladins to raise is not a consideration. My barb can raise dead. My pure fighter can raise dead. My ranger can raise dead. My paladin can raise dead. I don't need to spend a number of APs to gain an ability any melee class can get through a little effort.


Yes, the metagame favores DPS, but the game itslef allows all manar of characters to thrive and succede and a number of party strategies can be quite effective. The meta game also favors having a cleric and sorcerer but that doesn't mean you can't quest wtihout one.

Nobody is saying that having a paladin precludes a group from finishing a quest. I agree that a large number of strategies can be effective. The problem, however, isn't that the meta game favors having a cleric and sorc. It's that it favors groups excluding paladins, something I see every single night, at some point, during shroud group formation.

[sigtrent]

I think you're making way too many assumptions here. I'm not saying you're wrong, but you can't make such definitive statements. The ratio of how quickly the mob goes down vs resources spent on healing the party is difficult to compare w/ a barb vs. paladin. Can the pally cause less resources to be consumed while killing the mob? Sure. But is it in the realm of possibility that the paladin takes too long to kill the mob, and so having a mob stick around longer to deal damage to the paladin/group causes more resources to be expended? Sure.

The thing is.. if the paladin doesn't need as much support from the cleric or wizard, they can make up his slack in the DPS end of things by having a bit more mana for offensive casting. This assumes were talking about well built and played characters all around. A barbarian will take more damage than a paladin most of the time and require more status cures. They make up for that by killing monsters faster so on balance it tends to even out. Now there are critters like the pit fiend or elite orithons or some of the ogres where the paladins AC becomes moot, but that is only some of the time. On most quests if a paladin (even without CE) keeps his ac up he will not get hit all that much as where a barbarian can get lit up like a chrismass tree if fighting more than one monster at a time. They can easily survive it thanks to thier HP, but they require a lot of healing.


Again, I wouldn't be too definitive about this either. Sure, paladins save some resources through resisting themselves. But other than the 4 LOHs, the paladin is usually wand whipping himself, and not using heal scrolls (talking generally, as most aren't umd'ing heal scrolls reliably.) High levels are about heal spells. Groups and clerics aren't waiting around for a paladin to wand whip himself back to full. That's just reality. And if we're talking about raid fights, it's the rare paladin that's not the equivalent of the barb in terms of needing heals. The paladin against the pit fiend isn't pulling away and healing himself back up. And if he is, it's drastically lowering group dps, causing the fight to go much longer than it should.

The Pit field is something of a special case and is one of those times the pally should pull out his summoned greatsword and flip on power attack. Paladins can heal quite well if you bother to spec for it. My main is a fighter/cleric and has about the same healing spells/mana as a paladin and I find them very handy for staying alive in tight spots. It only takes around 6 AP and a potency item to make cure mod and seriouse do 40-80 points and that can save your bacon long enough for a cleric to get to you.

Also, I wand wip on all my characters, not usualy in the middle of a fight but there isn't a law that says the party can't stop for a a minute and heal themselves or use wands while marching to the next fight.


Agree, the damage isn't irrelevant. I don't know if I'd buy the 70% number, but I agree that a paladin can be built where the damage isn't irrelevant. But this would be going against the "paladin is a defensive class" argument.

Its just a ballpark figure. Basicaly barbarains get +12 str (10 for rage and 2 for starting str), 6pts of power attack damage, and a 10% larger crit window. So thats +12 damage and 10% more crits. Paladins get divine favor for 3pts so that takes us to +9 damage and 10% crits. I've run the numbers on crit ranges and it turns out for a typical barbarian its worth around 10-12 damage a swing depending on the build. So its around +20 damage a swing and a typical swing for a DPS build is 2d6+35+2d6proc which gets you 49 so thats about 70 for the barbarian and 50 for the paladin which is right about 70% DSP. That is for a fairly offense oriented paladin mind you who took comprable feats to the barbarian. A more middle of the road paladin could be more like 60%. Its if they ditch power attack they really start to fall into irrelivence at which point they should probably go for effect weapons rather than DPS.

But as to the raise capability? That is one of the arguments that I completely disagree with. When I first saw the ability to raise dead, I thought "cool, that'll help." And then I saw the prereqs. Taking those prereqs (like paladin devotion) probably means the paladin is going the caster/secondary healer route. If that's the case, the party is much better served w/ a bard or a cleric/battlecleric.

I think that's a matter of perspective. Among my 10 characters I have 1 res ring and 0 greensteel items with res on them. now because I have so many mulit class characters many of them can use raise dead scrolls, but those are quite slow and risky compared to an activated raise dead. Even the ring has to be equipped and then used and in the heat of battle it can matter. Also, that stuff is all mroe or less end game material and the paladin abbility can be had well before that. I don't think of the end game as the only game because I don't really play that way. As soon as I cap a character I tend to make a new one rather than grind them out for gear. (not that I don't hunt loot, it just isn't my main activity as it is for folks that do stuff like farm for multiple res rings)

Just because an item duplicates a class abbility, it doesn't make that abbility worthless.

The ability for paladins to raise is not a consideration. My barb can raise dead. My pure fighter can raise dead. My ranger can raise dead. My paladin can raise dead. I don't need to spend a number of APs to gain an ability any melee class can get through a little effort.

Most players can't say that.


Nobody is saying that having a paladin precludes a group from finishing a quest. I agree that a large number of strategies can be effective. The problem, however, isn't that the meta game favors having a cleric and sorc. It's that it favors groups excluding paladins, something I see every single night, at some point, during shroud group formation.

That's the meta game, not the actual game itslef. Meta game is for people who want to "win" or just are never satisfied unles they are optimal or best. But RPGs don't have to be that way. Lots of folks play them just to play them (like me). Not every class can be perfectly suited to the meta game of the moment. The whole "game" of the meta game is figuring out what is best among the various options so if all were balanced there wouldn't be any meta game.

But the point is that you can do any of the quests in game with paladins just as well (in the sense that you beat the quest and get the treasure) as you can with any other combat class. People that don't invite paladins to their group are just being jerks more than geniuses. They are needlessly excluding others because they heard X class isn't super uber, when in reallity the quality of the player will matter 10X more than the quality of the class.

I did running with the devils the other night wiht a motly pug. Barbarian, Ranger/Rogue, Cleric (me), Sorcerer, Wizard, and second cleric (my wife).

So it should have been... Barbarian kills stuff supported by rogue ranger, Wizard and Sorc do damage or kill spell and clerics heal and buff.

Instead it was... Wizard and Sorc keep casting spells that are resisted or do little or no damage while barbarian gets killed over and over while doing getting almost no kills what so ever. Ranger/Rogue is the main kill machine racking up about 45% of the kills, while my cleric gets about 35% via blade barrier and my wife keeps the two of us alive.

I'd have taken decently played paladins over the Barbarian, Wizard or Sorcerer any day of the week and twice on weekends.

[Bunker]

But the point is that you can do any of the quests in game with paladins just as well (in the sense that you beat the quest and get the treasure) as you can with any other combat class. People that don't invite paladins to their group are just being jerks more than geniuses. They are needlessly excluding others because they heard X class isn't super uber, when in reallity the quality of the player will matter 10X more than the quality of the class.



Sigtrent:
I wouldn't go as far to call those players 'jerks' but I would say they like the comfort of thier box. How many times have you seen an LFM to Giant Tor up where the group leader requested 2 clerics, 2 casters (sorce/wiz), and 2 tanks(barb/ftr). Let me get my calculator for the total...........it just said error, I guess that number is too high.

Now I have quested with you on occasion and from what I remember, I have seem some imaginative builds coming from your Barrracks. You like to play outside the box, creating and playing some of the "wacko" builds in the realm. BTW, that is a compliment! You know what it takes to create and play a variety of builds in DDO, and you do it well. So I agree with you, paladins are far from gimped.




[COLOR=lime]Nobody is saying that having a paladin precludes a group from finishing a quest. I agree that a large number of strategies can be effective. The problem, however, isn't that the meta game favors having a cleric and sorc. It's that it favors groups excluding paladins, something I see every single night, at some point, during shroud group formation.

Mhykke:
With all those groups that exclude a particular class, it is probably better off that you dont' join regardless whether you have a class they are looking for. If a group leaders a lot of times like to stick with what they know. A challenge to them in any quest, especially raids, is to gather the same group they completed the quest with last time. Those leaders out there have found a solution to the "problem" and want to stick with what works.

Now, does this mean the raid cannot be beat with a different solution? No. Does it anger some players to be excluded? Possibly. If you are looking for a party leader that has more then 1 dimension, it may take a bit. Just something we all have to deal with. I noticed in your bio you have a Paladin, so the question is, is your paladin gimped? I think that can only be answered by the player.


The problem with paladins is that they are so focused on their defensive abilities, but lack synergy to go with that high focus on defensive abilities. Survivability isn't bad, after all, that's what dwarves are so popular for. The problem is that in this DPS-heavy metagame, being good for defense doesn't cut it. Even though you barely take any damage, it doesn't mean it's any beneficial to the party, at all.

I've played with you many times, so I know you're a good player.
Don't take the following comment as fails in your build, but rather area where paladins, overall, fail for as long as they stay pure.



Borror:
Fails in my build? Any player should know that the only person that can point out fails in a build is the one that built it. Nobody else knows my builds to well, especially my paladins. And I'm almost certain that if I did post my paladin build, the critics would be swarming like bees to honey.

Take sigtrent for example; Here is a guy that had created and posted a large quantity of builds. Now I could go around and point out all the stregth and weaknesses of these builds but it will do me no good. I'm not the one playing them. Partly the reason I would never roll a character that was designed and created by someone else like sigtrent, because my play style might not fit the build.

Are pure lvl 16 paladins gimped? Only in the eyes of the creater imo.


Any new spells, or anything that would make me take my paladin off mule status? I wasent holding my breath.

Like a lot of Threads on the forums, posters like myself tend to skip over the OP and jump right up onto thier soapbox. I know I sure like to. But here is my answer to the OP:

If your paladin is on a "mule status" it is probably best. Why? If you don't like playing him, then why should you. Some players NEED to be #1 in kills in all quests. You can't throw a dagger without hitting a player that posts thier highest DPS of combat log kill in thier bio. After all, PVE is a battle against not only the mobs, but other players. DDO is a game and with games comes competition. If your paladin isnt' up to snuff against other builds out there, and you need to be "king of the mountain", stay on mule status. There isn't any new spell/ability/level that will cure your illness.

[Borror0]

Are pure lvl 16 paladins gimped? Only in the eyes of the creater imo..

Grrrr... stop using the word gimped when adrssing to me! I've stopped using it, so stop ptuting it in my mouth.

As for the only knowing the fails in a build is the one doing, it's totally false. Even more because you didn't read me right. I didn't say that your build had fails, but rather than there is no way for your pure paladin to not fail in that area. Unless you have access to stuff I don't, your paladin suffer has the weaknesses I mentioned.

[Borror0]

The thing is.. if the paladin doesn't need as much support from the cleric or wizard, they can make up his slack in the DPS end of things by having a bit more mana for offensive casting. This assumes were talking about well built and played characters all around.

Sig, a Resist Energy is 15 SPs, it takes a bunch of Resist Energies to give the caster a single Cone of Cold. That's if the caster runs out of SPs...


A barbarian will take more damage than a paladin most of the time and require more status cures.

Status cures?! Like... Disease? Curse? There are potions for those...


On most quests if a paladin (even without CE) keeps his ac up he will not get hit all that much as where a barbarian can get lit up like a chrismass tree if fighting more than one monster at a time. They can easily survive it thanks to thier HP, but they require a lot of healing.

Yes, the paladin's AC is useful.

However, the barbarian's DPS is as useful everywhere, unlike the paladin's AC. But, most importantly, the paladin's AC is totally worthless if he doesn't have aggro. With the end game being so DPS-focused and most characters being DPS focused, the paladin is not going to have aggro very often, unless he's got Intimidate... but that's not a class skill.


Its if they ditch power attack they really start to fall into irrelivence at which point they should probably go for effect weapons rather than DPS.

The problem there, Sig, is that DPS is the only thing that kills red named...


Just because an item duplicates a class abbility, it doesn't make that ability worthless.

I'll agree with that. That new Raise Dead-Lay on Hands thingy isn't horrible.
However, it's not incredible either. It's there for those who might need it and find the AP cost small enough.

You need enhancements like this, but the thing is far from being a powerful enhancement, or even close to one.

[Bunker]

Grrrr... stop using the word gimped when adrssing to me! I've stopped using it, so stop ptuting it in my mouth.

As for the only knowing the fails in a build is the one doing, it's totally false. Even more because you didn't read me right. I didn't say that your build had fails, but rather than there is no way for your pure paladin to not fail in that area. Unless you have access to stuff I don't, your paladin suffer has the weaknesses I mentioned.

First off, I said that, not sigtrent.
Second, which area again are you talking about in which pure paladins fail?
Third, if you don't like the word gimped, then come up with a different one. You said every other toon is probably better then paladins, so in YOUR words, what does that make a paladin?
Fourth, when feels they posses a large quantity of knowledge on any one subject, it is often difficult to persuade them to see outside the box. Even if it does have big windows.

[MrCow]

Yes, the paladin's AC is useful.

However, the barbarian's DPS is as useful everywhere, unlike the paladin's AC.

We just need more quests like Paragon Stealthy Repossession. :p

[Bunker]

We just need more quests like Paragon Stealthy Repossession. :p

No doubt, like the 2 handed barbarian in Let Sleeping Dust. Keep swinging that axe. We love spiders!

[Borror0]

That's the meta game, not the actual game itslef. Meta game is for people who want to "win" or just are never satisfied unles they are optimal or best. But RPGs don't have to be that way.

RPGs, you're right. MMO, not.

An MMO's goal is to keep it's player playing, the less useless stuff they design, the more player stays.
Designing level 12 to 16 was a waste of resources so far, for paladins.


Lots of folks play them just to play them (like me). Not every class can be perfectly suited to the meta game of the moment. The whole "game" of the meta game is figuring out what is best among the various options so if all were balanced there wouldn't be any meta game.

People who just play them to play them won't cry if paladins become stronger, so why do you oppose?


I did running with the devils the other night wiht a motly pug. [...]

I'd have taken decently played paladins over the Barbarian, Wizard or Sorcerer any day of the week and twice on weekends.

Two comments.

First, PuG example aren't good examples. We both know the quality of players in those are...

Second, no one is saying that paladins are gimped. At least, certainly not Mhykke or I. Paladins are excluded from the LFMs because for equally skilled players, they're the weakest. I always let everything open for a quest and I'll agree with you that those who excludes so or so class from an LFM are idiots. For most quests, you can make it with any class selection. There are a few quests where I'd not want a paladin, but they are rare (GoP, RwtD, Shroud Elite).

However, if I have the choice between a bad barbarian or a bad paladin, I take the bad barbarian.

A good player always beats a bad one, like a good build is better than a bad one.

[Borror0]

First off, I said that, not sigtrent.

hehe, got to love Copy/Pasting.:o


Second, which area again are you talking about in which pure paladins fail?

Errr... read the post you quoted?:D


Third, if you don't like the word gimped, then come up with a different one. You said every other toon is probably better then paladins, so in YOUR words, what does that make a paladin?

Weaker.


Fourth, when feels they posses a large quantity of knowledge on any one subject, it is often difficult to persuade them to see outside the box. Even if it does have big windows.

Ok, so explain me what does this box stop me from seeing. I'm more than open to listen.
Don't summazise, I want the whole deal.

[Bunker]

There are a few quests where I'd not want a paladin, but they are rare (GoP, RwtD, Shroud Elite).

However, if I have the choice between a bad barbarian or a bad paladin, I take the bad paladin.

A good player always beats a bad one, like a good build is better than a bad one.

GoP: Of all melee types, other then the beefey WF barb, paladins are better suited for this quests then other melee.
RwtD: So which melee rules in this quest? The dual weilding w/p or banishing rapier melee? All tankish type imo are pretty equal in this quest.
Shroud Elite: Of your top 3 you pick the toughest quest currently in game. Honestly, ALL tankish type struggle in this quest on elite, group effort is a must and no one class/player makes or breaks the quest.

[Bunker]

Ok, so explain me what does this box stop me from seeing. I'm more than open to listen.
Don't summazise, I want the whole deal.

As a whole, not just ac or dps or skills or attributes, paladins are not a weaker class. That is what a lot of ppl don't see.

[Ralmeth]

I Think Im Gonna Have To Hunt Down These "Bad" Paladins That Are Giving The Rest Of Us A Bad Name.

Guess My Paladin Has To Pull Out His Soap Box Again...

Unfortunately I've come across my fair share of badly played Paladin's in random PUGs. There are well played Pallys, but there are Pally's out there giving us a bad name:(

[Inspire]

Unfortunately I've come across my fair share of badly played Paladin's in random PUGs. There are well played Pallys, but there are Pally's out there giving us a bad name:(

I Say We Go Out There And Curse At Them Like A Pally Would, Ie: Jerkface And Muffinhead

[Borror0]

GoP: Of all melee types, other then the beefey WF barb, paladins are better suited for this quests then other melee.

Actually, a barbarian, regardless of the race, will be better than a paladin.
I only mentioned the quest I'd not take a paladin for, never said I'd take another melee instead, did I?


RwtD: So which melee rules in this quest? The dual weilding w/p or banishing rapier melee? All tankish type imo are pretty equal in this quest.

Anything that was built without a focus on AC is better in that quest. Those **** Eladrin bypass every defense.


Shroud Elite: Of your top 3 you pick the toughest quest currently in game. Honestly, ALL tankish type struggle in this quest on elite, group effort is a must and no one class/player makes or breaks the quest.

Yes, and there is a reason to it. All melee types are better than paladins in this one.

Barbarian:
Do I really need to explain this? Huge DPS, high HP and DR to boot.

Fighters:
Higher DPS than paladins, even though the difference is smaller.
Higher HP, while they have both access to the Toughness line and have d10 HD, paladins tend to dump stat Con more often.
It's more frequent for them to have Madstone Boots because they've got no spell to cast.

Rangers:
More DPS, Tempest and Favored Enemy are awesome.
Less HP, but they've got Evasion to help.
At worse, they will range.

Bards and rogues:
Their HP is too low, unless they're dwarves. That's because of the broken enhancement line that Toughness is.
DPS is greater than a paladin.

So, paladin got the lowest DPS in a quest where DPS is vital.
There is no way a paladin is better in that quest, all of its advantage drops to zero.

Their HP help them a little, but they're less interesting than the three other tank classes plus dwarven rogues and bards.

[Bunker]

I Say We Go Out There And Curse At Them Like A Pally Would, Ie: Jerkface And Muffinhead

Not fond of Jerkface, but Muffinhead is funny.:D

[Borror0]

As a whole, not just ac or dps or skills or attributes, paladins are not a weaker class. That is what a lot of ppl don't see.

Very lenghty explanation.:rolleyes: Very clear.
"Paladin are not gimped!! It's obvious!!":rolleyes:

[Bunker]

Actually, a barbarian, regardless of the race, will be better than a paladin.
I only mentioned the quest I'd not take a paladin for, never said I'd take another melee instead, did I?

Saying you wouldn't take a paladin is implying you would take another melee class. At least in this discussion we are having. We aren't discussing how paladins stand up to casters.



Anything that was built without a focus on AC is better in that quest. Those **** Eladrin bypass every defense.

Again saying that all paladins can bring to the table is AC, and if AC doesn't matter in a quest, then paladins don't matter. Still very one directional thinking. Stick to fighters, a more one dimensional class.



Yes, and there is a reason to it. All melee types are better than paladins in this one.

Barbarian:
Do I really need to explain this? Huge DPS, high HP and DR to boot.

Fighters:
Higher DPS than paladins, even though the difference is smaller.
Higher HP, while they have both access to the Toughness line and have d10 HD, paladins tend to dump stat Con more often.
It's more frequent for them to have Madstone Boots because they've got no spell to cast.

Rangers:
More DPS, Tempest and Favored Enemy are awesome.
Less HP, but they've got Evasion to help.
At worse, they will range.

Bards and rogues:
Their HP is too low, unless they're dwarves. That's because of the broken enhancement line that Toughness is.
DPS is greater than a paladin.

So, paladin got the lowest DPS in a quest where DPS is vital.
There is no way a paladin is better in that quest, all of its advantage drops to zero.

Their HP help them a little, but they're less interesting than the three other tank classes plus dwarven rogues and bards.

You are talking about Shroud on Elite, aren't you? When it comes to DPS and contribution in the Shroud, I would say Paladins are closer in the running the harder the difficulty is. If I am mistaken, please correct, but with the added disadvantage of the Pit Fiend having Fortification, that takes away from the massive high dps crits and it certainly takes away from all sneak attacks. So if anything, they are close to equal with most melee situations with exception to the high (46+) str barbarian.

Please tell me you have better examples.

[Bunker]

Very lenghty explanation.:rolleyes: Very clear.
"Paladin are not gimped!! It's obvious!!":rolleyes:

Oh now you are just becoming petty Borror. Barbarians and do dps, Fighter can do dps, paladins bring more then just dps to the table and to the party. You know what I am talking about, re explaining over and over is not neccessary.

[Inspire]

Saying you wouldn't take a paladin is implying you would take another melee class. At least in this discussion we are having. We aren't discussing how paladins stand up to casters.




Again saying that all paladins can bring to the table is AC, and if AC doesn't matter in a quest, then paladins don't matter. Still very one directional thinking. Stick to fighters, a more one dimensional class.




You are talking about Shroud on Elite, aren't you? When it comes to DPS and contribution in the Shroud, I would say Paladins are closer in the running the harder the difficulty is. If I am mistaken, please correct, but with the added disadvantage of the Pit Fiend having Fortification, that takes away from the massive high dps crits and it certainly takes away from all sneak attacks. So if anything, they are close to equal with most melee situations with exception to the high (46+) str barbarian.

Please tell me you have better examples.

Fortification Stays At 50%, His Hps Just Become More Ungoldy Along With His DR, = Paladin Summon Holy Burst + High Saves = Better Than Most Other Fighters.

Fighter Falls Behind On Reflex Saves And Being Hit With A DBF, Paladins Aura +5 Resist(Mod7) Is Literally The Difference Between Rolling a 5 Or A 1.

Barbs Can Take An Elite DBF I Know Cause Both My Barbs Can, And No One Denys Their Str/DPS/Hps.

The Ranger Has Evasion, But Typically If A Ranger Is Tanking The Fiend On Elite He Has High Str And Con Not Dex, So 1 Failed Save... Again +5 From A Paladin Is A Great Comlpiment To The DPS Ranger.

Rouges Have Improved Evasion So They Are Better To Tank If They Have The Hps To Stand Toe-To-Toe Plus Sneak Attack.

Bard Even With Being A Dwarf Will Hang Back On Elite, Thier Songs Are Invaluable To The Entire Team, If They Go Down, You Lose On Elite.

Edit: Btw, +5 To Ac Will Help Alot, The Fiend Has Missed My Batman/Ac Build Countless Times At His Normal 61-63Ac(Before Buffs), But The Again He Hit Me At A 78Ac... Ill Take The +5 Ac, A Miss Is A Miss.

[Borror0]

You know what I am talking about, re explaining over and over is not neccessary.

How about explaining yourself once?

[Bunker]

Edit: Btw, +5 To Ac Will Help Alot, The Fiend Has Missed My Batman/Ac Build Countless Times At His Normal 61-63Ac(Before Buffs), But The Again He Hit Me At A 78Ac... Ill Take The +5 Ac, A Miss Is A Miss.

Was that hit with a 78Ac a roll of a 20? You know what i mean, everyone will get hit sooner or later. It happens. I dont' feel that paladins are lowest on the chain though when talking shroud Elite.

[Borror0]

Fortification Stays At 50%, His Hps Just Become More Ungoldy Along With His DR, = Paladin Summon Holy Burst + High Saves = Better Than Most Other Fighters.

Fighter Falls Behind On Reflex Saves And Being Hit With A DBF, Paladins Aura +5 Resist(Mod7) Is Literally The Difference Between Rolling a 5 Or A 1.

Honestly, I don't really care. Fighters are a weak class too.


Barbs Can Take An Elite DBF I Know Cause Both My Barbs Can, And No One Denys Their Str/DPS/Hps.

Exactly.


Bard Even With Being A Dwarf Will Hang Back On Elite, Thier Songs Are Invaluable To The Entire Team, If They Go Down, You Lose On Elite.

True.


Btw, +5 To Ac Will Help Alot, The Fiend Has Missed My Batman/Ac Build Countless Times At His Normal 61-63Ac(Before Buffs), But The Again He Hit Me At A 78Ac... Ill Take The +5 Ac, A Miss Is A Miss.

Not on Elite. I agree for Normal.

[Bunker]

How about explaining yourself once?

In all the discussion, we seem to fall back to point of DPS. We have already established that Barbarians in melee situation are top dog. All other explination at this point is a waste, because all other points fall back to DPS. I've said it before, so here it is again, it is hard to persuade a player to see from all angles when they choose not to. Paladins are not barbarians, but they are not as weak as everyone states.

BTW, your Dwarven Defender Build, do you consider that a weaker class?

[Borror0]

Saying you wouldn't take a paladin is implying you would take another melee class. At least in this discussion we are having. We aren't discussing how paladins stand up to casters.

Maybe if I would have said that in as an argument, but you totally took that out of context. All I was doing was agreeing with Sig that no class should be left out of a LFM, as you can complete a dungeon with any class set-up, with the exception of a few classes. Then, I said in these three quests, I'd rather not have a paladin.


Again saying that all paladins can bring to the table is AC, and if AC doesn't matter in a quest, then paladins don't matter. Still very one directional thinking. Stick to fighters, a more one dimensional class.

Let's compare that to the barbarian.

AC matters, the barbarian is uber.
AC doesn't matter, the barbarian is as uber.

Now, when you take into account that the barbarian is better than the paladin when AC matters...

[Borror0]

It is hard to persuade a player to see from all angles when they choose not to.

I could tell you the same, you know.


Paladins are not barbarians, but they are not as weak as everyone states.

Yes, they are not. Rangers are not barbarians and they're not weak.
I'm not even asking to bring them to the level of barbarians, just closer to.

[Bunker]

Maybe if I would have said that in as an argument, but you totally took that out of context. All I was doing was agreeing with Sig that no class should be left out of a LFM, as you can complete a dungeon with any class set-up, with the exception of a few classes. Then, I said in these three quests, I'd rather not have a paladin.

If you are saying exclusion of any particular class in a quest is lame, then we are in agreement. Of course we are talking about the obvious exclusions, not the 11 players in for the StormReaver and still no Cleric. Yes it can be completed without a cleric, but it is nice to have at least one in there. But I think we are talking about the paladin/ranger exclusions in lfm in general.

Nothing makes me laugh and chake my head more then a player that runs one toon in a quest just to switch out at the last second to get reward on another toon. You see this time and time again when favor hunting. IMO, why play your character if you are just going to zip in for last chest. Lame in my Book.

And saying that you would "rather not" have a paladin is your choice. Opinion accepted. /noted

[Gunga]

Let's compare that to the barbarian.

AC matters, the barbarian is uber.
AC doesn't matter, the barbarian is as uber.

Now, when you take into account that the barbarian is better than the paladin when AC matters...

Hardly a scientific evaluation, if a bit wordy. :cool:

[Inspire]

Not on Elite. I agree for Normal.

Then Dont Do It For The Ac, Do It For The Resist Aura(The +5 Ac Is Still Nice Btw), +5 Fort Saves For Disease/Poison/Bleeding Wound, +5 Reflex And Will Save For DBF(And In Many Cases That Pesky Gnoll On Elite, BB And Comet Fall And Greater Command Suck, Fire Elemental Aura Of Fire/Fireball)

[Borror0]

But I think we are talking about the paladin/ranger exclusions in lfm in general.

Exactly.


You see this time and time again when favor hunting.

It depends, I'd rather go favor hunt with a caster than a melee. The quests go faster.

[Borror0]

Then Dont Do It For The Ac, Do It For The Resist Aura(The +5 Ac Is Still Nice Btw), +5 Fort Saves For Disease/Poison/Bleeding Wound, +5 Reflex And Will Save For DBF(And In Many Cases That Pesky Gnoll On Elite, BB And Comet Fall And Greater Command Suck, Fire Elemental Aura Of Fire/Fireball)

To be honest, my experience with Shroud Elite is too limited to reply on a saving throw comment.
I'll leave that one to gpk, or Mhykke.

[wolfy42]

I saw a post early on where someone said the first time they saw a paladin wearing a kimono they would boot them.

I was thinking a pally 14/monk 2 could work fairly well with a very high possible max AC.

Halfling finess based with following base stats:

Str 10 (04)
dex 18 (10)
Con 14 (06)
int 08 (00)
wis 14 (06)
cha 14 (06)

Could drop some stats and use +1 tomes (later upgraded to +3) to get a 13 int for CE....but you will need so many feats already even snagging weapon finess from a free monk level that it probably isn't worth it to get CE as well.

A very high AC is possible though with CE and you can drop con to 11 and wisdom to 13 (+1 wisdom from monk 2 and +1 con tome) this would net you a base 12 int with a +1 tome to get CE.

Saving throws would be freaking insane top end with the build and you can dual wield kamas (without taking the exotic feat) for vorpal action late game with full BAB.

I think the build could work and it would be different to see a paladin running around in robes:)

Especially funny next to another paladin in platemail with over 10 less AC which could happen very easily.

Anyway it certainly would be different!!

[Bunker]

It depends, I'd rather go favor hunt with a caster than a melee. The quests go faster.

So are you saying you would run your caster thru a quest for favor and at the end switch out so your other toons can get that favor?

[sigtrent]

Sig, a Resist Energy is 15 SPs, it takes a bunch of Resist Energies to give the caster a single Cone of Cold. That's if the caster runs out of SPs....

Deathward is 30? And there are others... It does make a difference and its not like folks cast one resist, its usualy the whole party getting resisted and sometimes 2-3 different types. We usualy have the rangers cast these if possible. So often I see paladins in quests with full mana bars while everyone else is running on empty becausee they simply neglect to cast/mem spells other than their primary buffs.


Status cures?! Like... Disease? Curse? There are potions for those...

Ya, they come on potions but if I had a dime for every time I had to get mummy rot of some pugger or even guildie I'd be on vacation in spain this week. Usualy you wand those things off of course but the paladin is one more person that can pull that off.



However, the barbarian's DPS is as useful everywhere, unlike the paladin's AC. But, most importantly, the paladin's AC is totally worthless if he doesn't have aggro. With the end game being so DPS-focused and most characters being DPS focused, the paladin is not going to have aggro very often, unless he's got Intimidate... but that's not a class skill.

Agro is not reserved for barbarians alone. Most encounters in DDO involve a large number of advasaries and the barbarian usualy only agros one at a time. Only the intimi tanks can pull in a whole crowd no matter who else is pounding on them. I've seen poor DPS characters get agro all the time and a well built paladin is not poor DPS, only moderate. And then you have archers and so on. Pluss, if you make your paladin well you can use intimidate quite well, and divine rightousness if you are into that sort of thing.



The problem there, Sig, is that DPS is the only thing that kills red named....

A good reason to take power attack! But even a finesse paladin can do some damage. Nothing amazing perhaps but every point helps kill the monster.



I'll agree with that. That new Raise Dead-Lay on Hands thingy isn't horrible.
However, it's not incredible either. It's there for those who might need it and find the AP cost small enough.
You need enhancements like this, but the thing is far from being a powerful enhancement, or even close to one.

That's all I'm saying, its usefull and its synergistic. It doesn't make paladins uber. Paladins arn't uber, but they are quite decent.

[Borror0]

So are you saying you would run your caster thru a quest for favor and at the end switch out so your other toons can get that favor?

To save time, yes I would. But that's for


Deathward is 30?

Yes, but there is Deathward, Mass.


And there are others...

Like?


It does make a difference and its not like folks cast one resist, its usualy the whole party getting resisted and sometimes 2-3 different types. We usualy have the rangers cast these if possible.

Bah, we only resist when needed.


Ya, they come on potions but if I had a dime for every time I had to get mummy rot of some pugger or even guildie I'd be on vacation in spain this week. Usualy you wand those things off of course but the paladin is one more person that can pull that off.

All there needs to be said:


The following potions are now equipped with funnels so they can be used on afflicted friends: Potion of Fear Removal, Potion of Poison Neutralization, Potion of Blindness Removal, Potion of Curse Removal, Potion of Disease Removal, Woodblossom Mead, and Crimson Nightshade Infusion. The new funnels are especially easy to use so raging barbarians should have no problems with them.


Agro is not reserved for barbarians alone. Most encounters in DDO involve a large number of advasaries and the barbarian usualy only agros one at a time. Only the intimi tanks can pull in a whole crowd no matter who else is pounding on them. I've seen poor DPS characters get agro all the time and a well built paladin is not poor DPS, only moderate. And then you have archers and so on.

It depends on how you play, Sig. Anyway, I agree that you will never have aggro concentrated on the DPSers 100%, but that wasn't my point. My point was that a paladin will have only a small portion of the aggro on him. And, when fighting against the though mobs, he'll not have the aggro.

Besides, any barbarian who doesn't have Intimidate has made a poor choice in his skill selection, in my opinion. Sometimes I pick up a two-hander on Borror... and it's just amazing. Intimidate plus all the glancing blows is brilliant. I can't even imagine what it'd look like if they were 30s instead of my weak glacing blows. It'll become truer come Module 7 with the change to Intimidate, allowing the melee to tank better.


Plus, if you make your paladin well you can use intimidate quite well, and divine rightousness if you are into that sort of thing.

Pure, nope. I refuse to admit that the only way to solve a class issue like this one would be to multiclass.

Like I've said countless time on these forums, Diplomacy should have a part to all to taunt. And Intimidate should have Demoralize Opponent added to it. It's solve everything. Saying "Yes, well if you want to fix this inherent lack of synbergy within our class design you have to multiclass." is just wrong.


That's all I'm saying, its usefull and its synergistic. It doesn't make paladins uber. Paladins arn't uber, but they are quite decent.

Thank you. VoilÃ*!!

All I wanted to hear, paladins are decent. See, even you think they needed to be balanced.

[sigtrent]

RPGs, you're right. MMO, not.
An MMO's goal is to keep it's player playing, the less useless stuff they design, the more player stays.
Designing level 12 to 16 was a waste of resources so far, for paladins..

True to some extent. But not all players are long time players (some are new, some return etc) and not all long time players are treasure hounds (like me for instance). Paladins get abbilities and spells and many other things levels 12-16, its just that some paladin players arn't interested in those things. (which always makes me wonder why they rolled a paladin but no on ever answeres that question)


People who just play them to play them won't cry if paladins become stronger, so why do you oppose?

A. I am NOT opposed to improvements to paladins. I am opposed to people saying they are worthless or suck or gimped etc... Because it just isn't true. They are not at the top of the class pyramid, but usualy only one or two classes can be at any given moment. I'm all for many of the improvements, but its the attitude of "paladins suck" that seems to come wtih it that I argue against. Paladins are great to have in groups so long as they are played well and you use them for what they are good at.

B. Some ideas I oppose because they would bring paladin DPS up to, or beyond other classes with far inferior defensive abbilities. That would simply make paladins the best melee class in the game in every cattegory and would be a balance mistake. At the moment they are weaker for metagame reasons, not because they are simply outclassed in every category.


First, PuG example aren't good examples. We both know the quality of players in those are...?

I'd wager that 70-80% of play in DDO is PuG play, or at least partly PuG. Even the big name guilds on my server are seen starting and participating in PuG groups regularly. There are great players in PUGs and bad ones. It happens to be the best way to randomly sample what DDO play is like. Elite, tight knit guilds are the exception, not the rule.


Second, no one is saying that paladins are gimped. At least, certainly not Mhykke or I. Paladins are excluded from the LFMs because for equally skilled players, they're the weakest. I always let everything open for a quest and I'll agree with you that those who excludes so or so class from an LFM are idiots. For most quests, you can make it with any class selection. There are a few quests where I'd not want a paladin, but they are rare (GoP, RwtD, Shroud Elite).

Some folks do say that Borror. There will always be a "weakest" class in any game, but what needst to happen is that the weakest class gets incremental attention and that it is not so weak it can't play and succede. Nothing stops paladins from playing and succeding in DDO.


However, if I have the choice between a bad barbarian or a bad paladin, I take the bad barbarian.

I'll happily take the bad paladin, they get into far less trouble.


A good player always beats a bad one, like a good build is better than a bad one.

A bad paladin build can be pretty useless, but so can a bad barbarian. A decent paladin build is perfectly playable, and not a "bad" build overall.

[sigtrent]

Thank you. VoilÃ*!!
All I wanted to hear, paladins are decent. See, even you think they needed to be balanced.

Ya.. I've said that before. I'd like to see paladins get a more robust selection of spells (I don't think they ones they have are useless but selection is clearly very limited). And I think that some more "I hate evil stuff" would be appropriate for them.

There are lots of good ideas floating around. You will notice I jump into these threads when folks start saying things like...

"Paladins are useless"
"The devs don't listen to us"
"Paladins get nothing past level 12"
"Fighters get better AC"
"Mod 7 only hurts paladins"
etc...

These are statements I disagree with.

Things like...
"Paladins could use more improvement"
"I'd like it if paladins had these spells X, Y, Z"
"Paladins arn't as good as barbarians/rangers"

I don't disagree wtih them and I don't jump in

Its just that the inflamatory people get me going, and then reasonable folks like you who are sympathetic start arguing with me thinking I am... well I'm not sure what you think I think exactly.
Paladins coud use some more love

[Borror0]

"The devs don't listen to us"

Yesterday, my roomate and I pretty concluded that the developers, rather than bothering if it's good or not, simply create and throw it in the WDAs and wait to see our replies.:rolleyes: Otherwise, there is quite frankly no way they could have made Exalted Smite and Divine Sacrifice thinking that could be a good way to spend their time.

They clearly listen to us, though. The reduction to Bulwark of Good was one of the things I suggested a bit before Module 6, for ecxample. But why they're not adding any spells eludes me totally. I think that if there is a thing that most paladins will agree on, is that they need a better spell selection. So, while I'm not a fan of Devs-bashing (Kate Paiz-bashing is different though. She mispoke often enough to deserve it.), I can understand why some will say that they're not listenning. Spells are the closest we can get to a consensus.


"Paladins get nothing past level 12"

While they do get something, you must agree it's far too little appealing.
Just compare it to going past level 12 on any other class.


"Mod 7 only hurts paladins"

While there steps in the good directions, there was a few in the wrong one.

[Mhykke]

True to some extent. But not all players are long time players (some are new, some return etc) and not all long time players are treasure hounds (like me for instance). Paladins get abbilities and spells and many other things levels 12-16, its just that some paladin players arn't interested in those things. (which always makes me wonder why they rolled a paladin but no on ever answeres that question)

Sig, I'll answer your question. I rolled my paladin when the level cap was 10. He is my second character. I continued to level him up as a paladin even when they became relatively weaker to the other classes w/ the hope that the devs would introduce things into the game that would buff up the class a bit.


A. I am NOT opposed to improvements to paladins. I am opposed to people saying they are worthless or suck or gimped etc... Because it just isn't true. They are not at the top of the class pyramid, but usualy only one or two classes can be at any given moment. I'm all for many of the improvements, but its the attitude of "paladins suck" that seems to come wtih it that I argue against. Paladins are great to have in groups so long as they are played well and you use them for what they are good at.

I don't know, may just be me, but I think there's a decent balance w/ the classes going on now, except for fighters and paladins. Casters are obvious, as are clerics. Barbs bring big DPS, and rangers do as well. Bards increase DPS of the entire party, as well as bringing some unique abilities as well. That leaves fighters or paladins. Fighters could use more feats added into the game for them to choose from. Paladins could use some spells that have been previously mentioned, as well as maybe some feats. I disagree that only 1 or 2 classes in the game right now are tops. The mix is pretty nice for the game, except for fighter and paladin.

Paladins if played by good players, can be good to have in groups, sure. But put that same skilled player in another class's role, and the group benefits more, depends on what it needs.


B. Some ideas I oppose because they would bring paladin DPS up to, or beyond other classes with far inferior defensive abbilities. That would simply make paladins the best melee class in the game in every cattegory and would be a balance mistake. At the moment they are weaker for metagame reasons, not because they are simply outclassed in every category

Could you remind me of the ideas that would bring paladin dps up to the equivalent of a barb or ranger? Not saying they don't exist, but I haven't kept up w/ the paladin discussions lately, curious as to what those ideas were.



Some folks do say that Borror. There will always be a "weakest" class in any game, but what needst to happen is that the weakest class gets incremental attention and that it is not so weak it can't play and succede. Nothing stops paladins from playing and succeding in DDO.

The issue isn't about playing and succeeding. Groups aren't going to fail b/c they have a paladin in the group. The issue is about paladins being less desirable than all the other classes, which is reflected every night in the game. They're less desirable b/c after a certain point, they don't receive anything that distinguishes the class. I have heard "It'd be nice to have a (fill in the blank class) in here" for every single class, every one, except paladin. I have heard it quite a bit.

So while people can play paladins fine and complete quests, that isn't the question. Heck, I'd say any decent player could play any build you gave them somewhat effectively, at least effectively enough to be able to complete quests w/ 5 other people, or 11 other people if a raid. The question is, why are paladins the least sought after class. And not only that, why are paladins the least played class at high levels. They need improvement, more than any other class at the moment.

[Gunga]

Could you remind me of the ideas that would bring paladin dps up to the equivalent of a barb or ranger? Not saying they don't exist, but I haven't kept up w/ the paladin discussions lately, curious as to what those ideas were.

Never saw the improved crit rage argument brought to the pali conversation? :rolleyes:

[Mhykke]

Never saw the improved crit rage argument brought to the pali conversation? :rolleyes:

Not really. Maybe I just brushed them off as ideas that would never happen.

The main suggestions that I have seen brought up over and over were the divine feats and the spells mentioned previously. And more recently, from the dev's suggestion of taking from the marshal class, some kind of aura selection of what auras you want on your paladin, including an offensive ability aura.

[Borror0]

Which always makes me wonder why they rolled a paladin but no on ever answeres that question

Short answer:
It's quite simple, paladins used to be much less of the "defensive class with very low DPS" they are now.

Long answer:
Before Module 3.3, the gap was much smaller. Most people assume that Module 4 was the paladin killer, but I'm pretty sure it's only because Modeule 3.3 was too short for anyone to realise the impacts it had on the game as people would have realise already a drop in paladin's strength.

In Module 3.3, the changes favored greatly barbarians. Before then, correct me if I am wrong, barbarians were not perma-raged in a quest. They had to rage very careful. (I'm not totally sure of that statement because I didn't know many barbarians back then.) But that's not the most important change. They also had added Barbarian's Power Attack who gave them an extra +6 to damage and Critical Rage I. That's a lot of DPS right there.

During Module 3.3, paladins were still fairly strong. It was the era of mid-AC which paladins were great for. Bulwark of Good helped them in reaching it more easily; they could wear Chaosgarde without effort and they were taking Power Attack because CE is anti-synergetic with Divine Favor which they kept on all the time. Everyone, even the barbarian were strivign for AC, so the paladin had an advantage right there.

Then, came Module 4. Barbarians got Critical Rage II (as if there DPS needed an extra +6% boost). What did paladins get in Module 4? They got Aura of Good reduce by one and Divine Favor capped at level 9... Oh, and like it wasn't enough, Module 4 nearly killed mid-AC favorising those who could get high AC or could deal tons of DPS without having to worry about AC.

Since Turbine opted for a non-nerfing politic (which I agree with for as long as it's possible to do so), they have boosted rangers in module 6... making fighters and paladins lag behind as the mobs are balanced for high DPS barbarians and rangers.


I'm all for many of the improvements, but its the attitude of "paladins suck" that seems to come wtih it that I argue against.

You're just arguing on the right word to say they're weaker than other classes.


Some ideas I oppose because they would bring paladin DPS up to, or beyond other classes with far inferior defensive abbilities. That would simply make paladins the best melee class in the game in every cattegory and would be a balance mistake. At the moment they are weaker for metagame reasons, not because they are simply outclassed in every category.

I would oppose to an overpowered suggestion too. I've often disagreed to a suggestion becuase it was overpowered.
I'm not talking about making them top DPSers... but only fixing the damage done by previous modules.


I'd wager that 70-80% of play in DDO is PuG play, or at least partly PuG. Even the big name guilds on my server are seen starting and participating in PuG groups regularly. There are great players in PUGs and bad ones. It happens to be the best way to randomly sample what DDO play is like. Elite, tight knit guilds are the exception, not the rule.

You're missing my point Sig.

A PuG is a sample, whereas the numbers are the reality. I don't care if some can't play/build their barbarians right. It's their problem, there is nothing that Turbine can do about them. It's like asking car companies to do something about those who will drive too fast and kill themselves.


Some folks do say that Borror.

Yes, but those are hurting the debate, the same way those who say "Stop telling to not play my paladin!!111oneoneezor:mad:" just ignore them and debate with those who are more rational, like me, Mhykke and gpk. What you're saying is like concluding that all german are nazis...


I'll happily take the bad paladin, they get into far less trouble.

A barbarian only need a toothpick and two ears to listen to be effective.

[Borror0]

Could you remind me of the ideas that would bring paladin dps up to the equivalent of a barb or ranger? Not saying they don't exist, but I haven't kept up w/ the paladin discussions lately, curious as to what those ideas were.

I have been following the debates a lot lately, and I didn't such.

[sigtrent]

Yesterday, my roomate and I pretty concluded that the developers, rather than bothering if it's good or not, simply create and throw it in the WDAs and wait to see our replies.:rolleyes: Otherwise, there is quite frankly no way they could have made Exalted Smite and Divine Sacrifice thinking that could be a good way to spend their time..

Not being a dev you really wouldn't know. But perhaps they just play differently than you do. I promice they think about the whole game expereince, not just "end game" and that explains part of it. They also arn't likely to run shroud raids 24/7 or the other kinds of power gamer stuff power gamers do.


They clearly listen to us, though.

what some folks (not you) don't seem to comprehend is that "listening" and "doing everything you ask" is not the same thing. One can lsiten and then not agree and thus not act in the way you want them to.


While they do get something, you must agree it's far too little appealing.
Just compare it to going past level 12 on any other class.

It appeals to me or I wouldn't make 15/1 builds fairly often. How about we compare pally past 12 to ranger past 12? They get a favored enemy (they already have 3) and they get some 4th level spells that are about the same quality as paladin ones, possibly worse. And that's it. Hardly anyone makes pure rangers unless they simply don't like multi classing.


While there steps in the good directions, there was a few in the wrong one.

Well we agree it could have been better. The dev's are usualy pretty cautious with upgrades, although clearly not always! In this case they probably held back a little too much.

[sigtrent]

Sig, I'll answer your question. I rolled my paladin when the level cap was 10. He is my second character. I continued to level him up as a paladin even when they became relatively weaker to the other classes w/ the hope that the devs would introduce things into the game that would buff up the class a bit..

But that doesn't tell me what you were thinking yoru paladin would do. Just "I didn't have that class yet". When I make a character I have a vision of what their roll in a party is and what powers they have that I want to play with. But then again I'm obbsessive abotu making characters...



Could you remind me of the ideas that would bring paladin dps up to the equivalent of a barb or ranger? Not saying they don't exist, but I haven't kept up w/ the paladin discussions lately, curious as to what those ideas were.

There were calls for an enhancement that was the same as crit rage for paladins, or the abbility to have every swing on demons and undead be a smite. Or one had them always adding thier charisma bonus to damage agaisnt any evil opponent. Stuff like that.



The issue isn't about playing and succeeding. Groups aren't going to fail b/c they have a paladin in the group. The issue is about paladins being less desirable than all the other classes, which is reflected every night in the game. They're less desirable b/c after a certain point, they don't receive anything that distinguishes the class. I have heard "It'd be nice to have a (fill in the blank class) in here" for every single class, every one, except paladin. I have heard it quite a bit.

There is and will always be some class or race or what not that is less desirable than any or all others. Unless they are all cookie cutter clones there will be some better and some worse. Its a question of degree. I think the gap is acceptably small. I'm ok with making paladins better but they are quite playable at the moment, even before mod 7. How can you make it so no class is the weakest class?


So while people can play paladins fine and complete quests, that isn't the question..

Dang, I though that was what we do in DDO.


Heck, I'd say any decent player could play any build you gave them somewhat effectively, at least effectively enough to be able to complete quests w/ 5 other people, or 11 other people if a raid. The question is, why are paladins the least sought after class. And not only that, why are paladins the least played class at high levels. They need improvement, more than any other class at the moment.

I don't think they NEED improvement, but it would be nice.

[sigtrent]

You're missing my point Sig.

A PuG is a sample, whereas the numbers are the reality. I don't care if some can't play/build their barbarians right. It's their problem, there is nothing that Turbine can do about them. It's like asking car companies to do something about those who will drive too fast and kill themselves.


Missing eachothers points most likely or just arguing about the stuff we don't actualy disagree on for the sake of arguing.

Numbers count, but ultimately when you actualy go to play the game, many of the numbrs are simply washed out by play skill or by the fact that most players don't know what half the numbers on their characters even do.

I've seen WF barbarians with 14 str and 20 con. Let me tell you I'll take a bad paladin over that any day. I'm all about build minutia but when it comes time to actualy play the game that stuff just doesn't become a big issue.

My main is a character most folks here would take one look at his character sheet and gear list and write him off as a fist class gimp. But time after time I get high kill counts or hold the party together in bad situations or just do an average job pulling my weight as a support character. Even running wtih regular raiders I tend to be competative in kills and general usefulness. Plenty of paladin builds could show him up in numerical DPS or in healing abbility or any number of categories. But its how you leverage what you have that counts. So long as you have the nessesary raw materials you can make it work.

This is the character
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=1310315#post1310315

Id say I've out killed about half the barbarians I've ever grouped with and majority of the fighters, rangers and rogues. Crunching the numbers there isn't anything too impressive there. Way less DPS than most barbarians or even a strongly built paladin. But it is good enough to get the job done every time. I can't carry a whole party on my back, but usualy I don't need to.

I see lots of builds for crazy good characters but in game... I see really average ones most of the time. And turbine developers have to cater both to us hard core guys and also the casual folks.

[Mhykke]

Not being a dev you really wouldn't know. But perhaps they just play differently than you do. I promice they think about the whole game expereince, not just "end game" and that explains part of it. They also arn't likely to run shroud raids 24/7 or the other kinds of power gamer stuff power gamers do.

But buffing the paladin class would help both powergamers and casuals alike. The weaknesses are the same for both casual and powergamer at the same point, it just takes casual gamers longer to get to that point.



It appeals to me or I wouldn't make 15/1 builds fairly often. How about we compare pally past 12 to ranger past 12? They get a favored enemy (they already have 3) and they get some 4th level spells that are about the same quality as paladin ones, possibly worse. And that's it. Hardly anyone makes pure rangers unless they simply don't like multi classing.

Well, if we're comparing the 2 classes to 20, rangers get 2 favored enemies (at 15 and at 20), which equals +4 damage to all their favored enemies. I think that's pretty significant, and am curious as to what you feel is the paladin's equivalent (not just in terms of DPS, but just in overall effectiveness) to this from lvl 12-20?

I wouldn't say the rangers' 4th spells are possibly worse. Freedom of movement is a very nice spell to have, and is much better than deathward b/c
1. It doesn't come on an easily farmable, low level clicky
2. There's no mass freedom of movement that another class casts when it's needed to override the ranger casting FOM.

Holy Sword is finally going to be useful in the next mod. But you know what, if we take all spells into account for the 2 classes, there is nothing the paladin has that comes close to ram's might.


In this case they probably held back a little too much.

Agree.

[sigtrent]

But buffing the paladin class would help both powergamers and casuals alike. The weaknesses are the same for both casual and powergamer at the same point, it just takes casual gamers longer to get to that point..

But they clearly are cautiouse about going too far. They undershot the mark and their comments make it clear (to me) they are aware of that but are still cautious.


Well, if we're comparing the 2 classes to 20,..

That wasn't what we were talking about... it was 13-16, or so I thought.


rangers get 2 favored enemies (at 15 and at 20), which equals +4 damage to all their favored enemies. I think that's pretty significant, and am curious as to what you feel is the paladin's equivalent (not just in terms of DPS, but just in overall effectiveness) to this from lvl 12-20?,..

Lay on hands would be about the same as favored enemy. You may not think it is as usefull but a dead ranger will have trouble killing his favored enemy.


I wouldn't say the rangers' 4th spells are possibly worse. Freedom of movement is a very nice spell to have, and is much better than deathward b/c
1. It doesn't come on an easily farmable, low level clicky
2. There's no mass freedom of movement that another class casts when it's needed to override the ranger casting FOM.

I tend to find deathward far more usefull personaly. Whetehr other classes can cast it is irrelivent to me. Other classes can cast freedom of movement as well and many of its effects can be duplicated by other effects, and there are items with permanent freedom of movment on them. Both are good spells.


Holy Sword is finally going to be useful in the next mod. But you know what, if we take all spells into account for the 2 classes, there is nothing the paladin has that comes close to ram's might..

Rams might is a first level spell and thus not part of levels 13-16

Rangers may be a slightly better class these days but all that good stuff comes in levels 6-12 for them.

[Borror0]

I promice they think about the whole game expereince, not just "end game" and that explains part of it. They also arn't likely to run shroud raids 24/7 or the other kinds of power gamer stuff power gamers do.

I have nothing against that. That's why I have never spoke against changes that affect lowers levels, or more casual playstyle. But there is something you got to understand there Sigmund, paladins don't lack in that area that much. At best, it's a misplaced effort as those who are asking for improvement are mostly likely powergamers.

Divine Sacrifice is great when you get it at level 4, but afterwards it gets pretty lame, I think we both on that? Well the issue is, paladin don't lack at that level. At low levels, paladin are incredible. The problem is when you get at end game, before level 11, I really have no complaint. So, if there is a negative comment I would make to developers, it is that. They're misjudging the priorities. They're strengthening levels that don't really need the improvement so much, no matter who you're going to ask.

As for Exalted Smite, it's simply overcosty. I'm pretty sure that the eight Exalted Smite IV from a level 16 paladin wouldn't come close to the Burst DPS of Haste Boost one. The problem is that Haste boost I costs 1 AP, and Exalted Smite costs 20 APs. I'm comparing apple to apple here, burst DPS versus burst DPS. Haste Boost has simply far too many advantages over Smite Evil that it's riddiculous.


How about we compare pally past 12 to ranger past 12?

What's so great about past level 12 on a paladin?


In this case they probably held back a little too much.

Agreed.

[Borror0]

But that doesn't tell me what you were thinking yoru paladin would do. Just "I didn't have that class yet". When I make a character I have a vision of what their roll in a party is and what powers they have that I want to play with. But then again I'm obbsessive abotu making characters...

How about my answer to that question? You skiped it...


There is and will always be some class or race or what not that is less desirable than any or all others.

False argument, just because there will be always some sort of imbalance doesn't mean they shouldn't try to keep it as small as possible.

[Mhykke]

But that doesn't tell me what you were thinking yoru paladin would do. Just "I didn't have that class yet". When I make a character I have a vision of what their roll in a party is and what powers they have that I want to play with. But then again I'm obbsessive abotu making characters....

At the time I wanted to make a front line combatant, that had solid, but not spectacular AC, and very solid DPS (at the time, one handed khopesh was fine.) The paladin drawing his combat str from his faith and all that. But that faith was nerfed a bit, while other classes received buffs.



There were calls for an enhancement that was the same as crit rage for paladins, or the abbility to have every swing on demons and undead be a smite. Or one had them always adding thier charisma bonus to damage agaisnt any evil opponent. Stuff like that.

Well, in all fairness, anyone can pipe up and throw something out there. What I remember is the predominant suggestions were for some existing spells and such to be added.


There is and will always be some class or race or what not that is less desirable than any or all others. Unless they are all cookie cutter clones there will be some better and some worse. Its a question of degree. I think the gap is acceptably small. I'm ok with making paladins better but they are quite playable at the moment, even before mod 7. How can you make it so no class is the weakest class?

Sure, there can always be a class that is always the weakest, but this is where we depart. You may find the gap in strength acceptable, I think it's too large.

I think it's too large when you can point to 1 class if you had to name 1 that is left out of LFMs (btw, LFMs by players with skill, that know the game well.) I also think it's too large when you routinely hear in groups "it'd be nice to get x" in here, where x always represents every other class accept paladin.



Dang, I though that was what we do in DDO.

Yeah, you can complete quests fine w/ paladins, but that's not a reflection of a class's str, it's a reflection of the players completing quests no matter what. Much of the content can be soloed, so no 1 class is necessary. But this doesn't invalidate a class from suffering being weaker and needing a buff.


I don't think they NEED improvement, but it would be nice.

I guess it all depends on the word need. If people accept that paladins are the least played class, and the least desired class for PUGs, then sure, they don't need improvement. If people would rather that once in a while people while forming a group thought "hey, let's get a pally in here," then they need a bit of improvement.

[Borror0]

I've seen WF barbarians with 14 str and 20 con. Let me tell you I'll take a bad paladin over that any day.

I'll take WF over a paladin with 22 Str (end game) and a paper AC (ie getting on a 2). The barbarian will deal more damage and will get hit as much, but it'll be less painful to heal.

Id say I've out killed about half the barbarians I've ever grouped with and majority of the fighters, rangers and rogues.[/QUOTE]

Congratz. You can outkill any idiot in a PuG with any build. For example, my warchanter almost always win the kill count in a PuG even though I buff and Haste the rangers and barbarians. It's called having skills, which a lot of people lack in-game. That's why PuGs don't count. It's not an evaluation of the class, or even the build, but rather an evaluation of the player.


I see lots of builds for crazy good characters but in game... I see really average ones most of the time. And turbine developers have to cater both to us hard core guys and also the casual folks.

This is the nature of my AC arguments and why paladins are less good that most of what the defenders here say.
The average PuG won't have any AC.

However, that kind of argument is irrevelant when talking about DPS.

[Mhykke]

That wasn't what we were talking about... it was 13-16, or so I thought.

Well we're comparing incentives to stay high level in each class. You get much more from ranger 12+ than paladin.


Lay on hands would be about the same as favored enemy. You may not think it is as usefull but a dead ranger will have trouble killing his favored enemy.

I disagree. +2 to damage each swing on a favored enemy (+4 each swing at lvl 20) is better than an ability that you can use 4 times per rest. And when you consider the ability is one used as an "oh s**t don't die" ability, the difference from a lvl 16 paladin w/ a 26 cha and a lvl 12 paladin w/ a 26 cha for lay on hands would be 32 points of hit points healed. A lvl 16 paladin w/ a 26 cha has lay on hands for 208 hit points. You'd be at 176 hit points if you were a paladin lvl 12 instead. Basically still stops you from dying in the next swing. Is 32 hit points of healing, 4 times per rest, the equivalent of +2 to damage on FE every single swing (usually twf'ing)? I don't know, seems pretty clear which I'd choose.



Rangers may be a slightly better class these days but all that good stuff comes in levels 6-12 for them.

Slightly better? We may just have to agree to disagree. Rangers, when facing FEs, can be the highest DPS class in a game that is oriented more towards DPS. I think the gap is significantly more than just a "slight" difference.

[sigtrent]

How about my answer to that question? You skiped it...

Sorry, it was a bit long so I didn't take it as a direct answer. Also it didn't really tell me what you were looking for in a paladin other than "paladins seemed good at the time" Which is an answer but not one I can say much about.

It seems to break down to : Barbarians and rangers wern't as good at the time and Defense mattered more at the time. Its shifting ground in the game but its more or less the same dynamic D&D has always had. Perhaps I'm just more accustomed to it than other folks. But Paladin DPS is generaly lower than other classes throught their lives. While the raw number changes the % doesn't shift all that much. So at low level their 30% weakness is 4pts of damage and at high levels its 20. Different classes get bonuses at different levels. But the basic dynamics of class havn't changed much, only the specific bonuses.

I guess I see the classes more wholisticly or something. I always expect paladin to be a defensive fighter wtih healing powers and I expect barbarians to be damage machines, and I expect fighters to be whatever the player wanted to focus on or some mix of A and B. I expect rangers to be better archers and more versatile but less durable than other classes.




False argument, just because there will be always some sort of imbalance doesn't mean they shouldn't try to keep it as small as possible.

Of course you want to try and strive for making all classes good. But if you strove to have no meta game (and thus no differnece between class capeabilities) then it would just be boring. Its good to keep working on class balance and clearly the devs are working on it. Working on it and satisfying everyone are uasualy not one in the same. My point is that the difference is small, and there will always be small differences and that small while they are worth addressing, they are not a crisis in game design that some make them out to be.

[sigtrent]

At the time I wanted to make a front line combatant, that had solid, but not spectacular AC, and very solid DPS (at the time, one handed khopesh was fine.) The paladin drawing his combat str from his faith and all that. But that faith was nerfed a bit, while other classes received buffs..

Thanks. But did you really thing sword and board was going be competative in DPS TWF and Two handed builds in the long run?
Did you expect that superior AC, Saves and healing was going to be totaly without balance in reduced offense?


Well, in all fairness, anyone can pipe up and throw something out there. What I remember is the predominant suggestions were for some existing spells and such to be added...

I don't challenge reasonable suggestions.


Sure, there can always be a class that is always the weakest, but this is where we depart. You may find the gap in strength acceptable, I think it's too large.

While we disagree it isn't unreasonable to have a different opinion about it.


I think it's too large when you can point to 1 class if you had to name 1 that is left out of LFMs (btw, LFMs by players with skill, that know the game well.) I also think it's too large when you routinely hear in groups "it'd be nice to get x" in here, where x always represents every other class accept paladin..

People still do that with rangers and rogues and sometimes other classes as well (socrs over wizards etc...) Its just that people are narrow minded, not that they are right in their discrimination. Next time I'm on I'll count LFMs excluding paladins vs other classes. I've never noticed such a discrimination being wide spread. Especialy compared to rogues.


Yeah, you can complete quests fine w/ paladins, but that's not a reflection of a class's str, it's a reflection of the players completing quests no matter what. Much of the content can be soloed, so no 1 class is necessary. But this doesn't invalidate a class from suffering being weaker and needing a buff.

In my opinion it is only too weak if it is not usefull to a party in completing the quest. Paladin is for folks who want to be self reliant and survive difficult circumstances. If the meta-game disfavors that (which to some extent it does) that only means your favored style is less effective. If you build a similar character in another class, you will find the same issue, its just that this class is geared to that style. Taking away the style isn't a good option. Giving the advantage of other classes to one wtih these advantages is imbalanced. To keep a paladin true to the nature of the class, it nessesarily needs to not be optimal in DDO's current meta game. If it were unplayable that way then its unacceptable, but if it is merely sub-optimal, then its a style thing.


I guess it all depends on the word need. If people accept that paladins are the least played class, and the least desired class for PUGs, then sure, they don't need improvement. If people would rather that once in a while people while forming a group thought "hey, let's get a pally in here," then they need a bit of improvement.

I say "lets grab a pally in here" in every group I run. I loooooove having a paladin in my groups when I play any melee character and I mostly play melee cahracters.

[sigtrent]

Basically still stops you from dying in the next swing. Is 32 hit points of healing, 4 times per rest, the equivalent of +2 to damage on FE every single swing (usually twf'ing)? I don't know, seems pretty clear which I'd choose..

But if that is what you prefer... why not play a ranger? Why have lay on hands at all?



Slightly better? We may just have to agree to disagree. Rangers, when facing FEs, can be the highest DPS class in a game that is oriented more towards DPS. I think the gap is significantly more than just a "slight" difference.

I meant they are slightly better than they were "back in the day" aka before they got rams and tempest. Rangers were always good even when the masses where whining about how useless they were.

[Borror0]

Sorry, it was a bit long so I didn't take it as a direct answer. Also it didn't really tell me what you were looking for in a paladin other than "paladins seemed good at the time" Which is an answer but not one I can say much about.

Ok, want to know?

I want it to be capable of doing the two following things in non-sub-optimal way:

DPSer with higher survability
Defensive tank (must be able to taunt)

It must be able to do these while staying pure, even if multiclassing improves it.
Of course, they're two different builds.


But if you strove to have no meta game (and thus no differnece between class capeabilities) then it would just be boring. [...] My point is that the difference is small, and there will always be small differences and that small while they are worth addressing, they are not a crisis in game design that some make them out to be.

The point is not to have "no metagame", but to play around it.

If the metagame makes a class weaker, then you need to play around it. Right now, S&B DPS is too low... so raise it.

[Borror0]

But if that is what you prefer... why not play a ranger? Why have lay on hands at all?

Sig, you're more clever than this...


I meant they are slightly better than they were "back in the day" aka before they got rams and tempest. Rangers were always good even when the masses where whining about how useless they were.

Yes, you're right. Back then, rangers were almost at the paladin's level, just a little more powerful than them. However, their squishiness made them less appealing to groups has some rangers tended to have 8 Con on their elf. Well, that plus the annoying ranged rangers with no DPS.

[Mhykke]

Thanks. But did you really thing sword and board was going be competative in DPS TWF and Two handed builds in the long run?
Did you expect that superior AC, Saves and healing was going to be totaly without balance in reduced offense?

Well that's not really fair. Are you saying at the time, I should have expected mob hit points to increase exponentially? The game has changed, the focus on offense and DPS is much more important today. Back then, you didn't need to go TWF or THF. The gap b/w S&B and the THF'ers and TWF'ers was smaller, especially considering AC meant more. When the level cap was 10, a solid, but not spectacular AC, meant more than it does today.



People still do that with rangers and rogues and sometimes other classes as well (socrs over wizards etc...) Its just that people are narrow minded, not that they are right in their discrimination. Next time I'm on I'll count LFMs excluding paladins vs other classes. I've never noticed such a discrimination being wide spread. Especialy compared to rogues.

If we're talking about people that know the game, they know that rangers provide some of the highest DPS out there. Also, those people know that rogues can dish out extremely high DPS, as well as UMD to help the party. I know for a fact I've heard people ask for rogues, at the very least for doors in shroud and traps in rainbow. That's more than I can say about paladin.

Again, we can't take into account people that aren't very knowledgeable of the game. There's no accounting for what they may or may not view as effective.



In my opinion it is only too weak if it is not usefull to a party in completing the quest. Paladin is for folks who want to be self reliant and survive difficult circumstances. If the meta-game disfavors that (which to some extent it does) that only means your favored style is less effective. If you build a similar character in another class, you will find the same issue, its just that this class is geared to that style. Taking away the style isn't a good option. Giving the advantage of other classes to one wtih these advantages is imbalanced. To keep a paladin true to the nature of the class, it nessesarily needs to not be optimal in DDO's current meta game. If it were unplayable that way then its unacceptable, but if it is merely sub-optimal, then its a style thing.

Again, we have to agree to disagree. I find the notion of paladin as "last man standing" as not really being very true. And if the paladin finds himself in that situation, it can usually be party explained through the aggro (or lack of) that they generate.



I say "lets grab a pally in here" in every group I run. I loooooove having a paladin in my groups when I play any melee character and I mostly play melee cahracters.

Well then, you're either in the vast minority, or your server is greatly different than mine. Let me preface this by saying that I pug very, very often on my server. I am not exaggerating to prove my point. I have literally, never heard, 1 time, anyone, ever, suggesting to look for a paladin or to get one in the group, or that it'd be nice to have one in the group. The only time they are mentioned it's in a derogatory way. And this isn't by people with little skill, that only play the game in 1 way. I'm talking knowledgeable players, who run quests in a variety of ways, not waiting for clerics, soloing until groups catch up, etc.

I have heard people asking for every single other class, many times over. Casters (usually in the form of wizard or sorc), clerics, bards, rogues, melee (usually they say fighter or barb), and rangers.


But if that is what you prefer... why not play a ranger? Why have lay on hands at all?

Sig, that's part of the concern. Players are asking this question, "why not play a ranger," "why not play a barb," "why not play a fighter." And they come to the conclusion that there's no reason not to, over the paladin. This is seen through less and less people playing high level paladins. After these threads started popping up, I'd check out the who boards (during prime playing hours) looking at the number of high lvl classes on, and compared them. Paladins were consistently the fewest in number. A couple times there were zero 15+ lvl paladins on, while others had 10+. Now, admittedly, small sample size, it's anecdotal, and at other times paladins could've been plentiful. Somehow I doubt that tho.

Not only that, groups are asking "why have lay on hands in here." And they come to the conclusion they don't prefer someone w/ LOH over another DPS'er, or a better healer/buffer.

Paladins are dear to me. A paladin was my first melee character, and my 2nd character overall. I have every quest done on elite w/ my pally, except abbot and shroud. I've spend a good amount of time w/ him. I won't accept simply letting it go w/ people saying "why not play another class" and decide "yeah, why not," and leave paladins to be some niche class, admitting "yeah, it's the weakest class, but 1 of them has to be, right?"

[Borror0]

If the meta-game disfavors that (which to some extent it does) that only means your favored style is less effective.

You mention the metagame like if it'd be some sort of silly thing.

You see, the metagame won't change unless the developers change it. It will always remain the same. We're not a in a CCG were the metagem changes every expension. We're talking of D&D. Of course there things that will matter more or less at each module depending on the monsters in the dungeons, but AC is a trend. And even if AC remains as useful as it is now, I assume their DPS is still too low.

Again, not putting them into uselessness, but they're weaker.

The metagame is the game.


Its just that this class is geared to that style.

It's a flaw in the game.


To keep a paladin true to the nature of the class, it nessesarily needs to not be optimal in DDO's current meta game.

Expalin me why.

[sigtrent]

Heh, you guys are wearing me out here and I need to read the new 4E rules! But its fun so I'll try to keep up.


Ok, want to know?
I want it to be capable of doing the two following things in non-sub-optimal way:

DPSer with higher survability
Defensive tank (must be able to taunt)

It must be able to do these while staying pure, even if multiclassing improves it.
Of course, they're two different builds.
.

There is no pure class that does those things together, and if there was everyone would play it. One or the other, ya. The first you can do with fighter pretty much, although no healing... I guess a dwarven ranger fits the bill. The second, fighter. I guess thats the deal, you want X thing, the game allows it but you can't just pick any one race and class and get any option you like. To get the exact build you want, you need to take a look at what is available and put it together. Thats the fun part about it to me. The fact that Paladin can't be an awesome DPS machine on its own just means I need to multi class it with fighter or ranger to upp its damage and I get to keep most of the cool paladin features. What's not to like about that?



The point is not to have "no metagame", but to play around it.
If the metagame makes a class weaker, then you need to play around it. Right now, S&B DPS is too low... so raise it.

Ya... perhaps what they need is a sword and board feat style set or something. Perhaps kind of a reverse sneak attack where you only do extra damage if you have agro... not sure. Paladins can do plenty of damage by taking sytle feats and/or multi classing. They are still paladins. I see the fact you get many nice abbilities early int he class as a boon rather than a bane. It gives you more freedom to be creative and take advantage of all the game has to offer.

If I could change one thing about paladin it would be the alignment restriction! I've always wanted bard paladins! Yum!

[sigtrent]

Sig, you're more clever than this....

I disagree! :D

No really, I was saying if you want favored enemy more than lay on hands... make a ranger. Really, that is what rangers do, extra damage to certain races. Paladins get healing powers. If you prefer damage to healing, don't make a paladin because that is where their class abbilities lie.


Yes, you're right. Back then, rangers were almost at the paladin's level, just a little more powerful than them. However, their squishiness made them less appealing to groups has some rangers tended to have 8 Con on their elf. Well, that plus the annoying ranged rangers with no DPS.

It just illustrates that its more the meta game than anything else that effects paladins. Its the type of challenges we face more than the class abbilities. If the next module was jam packed with bad ass spell casters throwing mass hold person (I suppose they need to throw dispells too) with a 25DC will save you would see paladin popularity skyrocket. (not to mention dwarves and WF). Hopefully we will get a spell caster heavy set of adventures some day. Right now its a bit too much of the damage and melee action and has been that way a bit too long.

Their class strenghts are still there, they just don't get much of a work out these days. Again, I'm not against making paladins better at things, but I strongly feel their roll as a self sufficient defensive fighter should be maintained in their class abbilities.

[Borror0]

There is no pure class that does those things together, and if there was everyone would play it.

I meant a class that you can make a build to be either of the to as in, you can make it so it can DPS well while taking less damage than a barbarian. DPS would be lower to compensate for that. Or, you could build it for AC and be able to tank. But you could so both with the class, it just depends on how you'd build it.

[sigtrent]

Well that's not really fair. Are you saying at the time, I should have expected mob hit points to increase exponentially? The game has changed, the focus on offense and DPS is much more important today. Back then, you didn't need to go TWF or THF. The gap b/w S&B and the THF'ers and TWF'ers was smaller, especially considering AC meant more. When the level cap was 10, a solid, but not spectacular AC, meant more than it does today.?"

TWF has gotten a lot better but THF has always been significantly more damage than sword and board and TWF was better, just not as much better as it is now due to the bump in GTWF and adding OTWF and Tempest. TWF is clearly better than THF at this point (IMO). The gab is bigger and AC has degraded in value (at high levels), but the class is what it is. Its defensive, always has been, always will be (or perhaps not, still reading 4E rules :) ).

I'm not trying to be harsh, and I get what you say. But Paladin just was never ment to be a damage power house class. And there was nothign in the rules that really indicated otherwise.


If we're talking about people that know the game, they know that rangers provide some of the highest DPS out there. Also, those people know that rogues can dish out extremely high DPS, as well as UMD to help the party. I know for a fact I've heard people ask for rogues, at the very least for doors in shroud and traps in rainbow. That's more than I can say about paladin.

Id prefer to talk about folks that play the game rather than know it. Most players I talk to don't really know the rules inside and out or what other classes (other than what they have played) can do or can't do. There are still folks that think rangers are all archers. I still think if you don't want paladins in your group you are foolish and don't know the game as well as you claim. (I'm not saying you as in Hmykke but you as in paladin no groupers.)


Again, we can't take into account people that aren't very knowledgeable of the game. There's no accounting for what they may or may not view as effective.

Sure we can. They are the bulk of the player base in my opinion. "Common wisdom" is where most of this nonsense comes from. Paladins are good to have in your groups unless they are played by fools, just like any other class. Their inferiority in DPS is not a problem if you have a good group and use your paladin effectively.


Again, we have to agree to disagree. I find the notion of paladin as "last man standing" as not really being very true. And if the paladin finds himself in that situation, it can usually be party explained through the aggro (or lack of) that they generate.

I think it stems from running in differnt kinds of groups. I play at least half the time with people I would call "casual players" and about half with "hard core players". The reason a paladin is often last man standing is because if the cleric dies they can heal themselves for a while and others can't. A good paladin should be the last man standing in a failed encounter, if they arn't, they are probably doing something wrong. I love when doing a dungion and the group is just barely strong enough to pull it off. Survivors often can save the party from a compleate wipe.


Well then, you're either in the vast minority, or your server is greatly different than mine. Let me preface this by saying that I pug very, very often on my server. I am not exaggerating to prove my point. I have literally, never heard, 1 time, anyone, ever, suggesting to look for a paladin or to get one in the group, or that it'd be nice to have one in the group. The only time they are mentioned it's in a derogatory way. And this isn't by people with little skill, that only play the game in 1 way. I'm talking knowledgeable players, who run quests in a variety of ways, not waiting for clerics, soloing until groups catch up, etc..

Hmm... can't argue with your expereince but in mine most groups just treat (fighter/ranger/paladin/barbarian) as being pretty much all of the same ilk and you grab any or all when you need a melee presense in the quest. Personaly so long as there is one other such character I'll throw rogue in there too sicne they can usualy do just as much damage at high level (I usualy don't like seeing them as the only melee as they ganeraly can't handle the agro alone).


I have heard people asking for every single other class, many times over. Casters (usually in the form of wizard or sorc), clerics, bards, rogues, melee (usually they say fighter or barb), and rangers...

Going to log into Thelanis and see whats what....


Sig, that's part of the concern. Players are asking this question, "why not play a ranger," "why not play a barb," "why not play a fighter." And they come to the conclusion that there's no reason not to, over the paladin. This is seen through less and less people playing high level paladins. After these threads started popping up, I'd check out the who boards (during prime playing hours) looking at the number of high lvl classes on, and compared them. Paladins were consistently the fewest in number. A couple times there were zero 15+ lvl paladins on, while others had 10+. Now, admittedly, small sample size, it's anecdotal, and at other times paladins could've been plentiful. Somehow I doubt that tho.

I get a lot of paladin requests on my build threat, especialy lately. I'd say half of the last set or requests were paladins or "tanks" (which almost always includes at least some paladin levels). Paladins are still quite popular, just perhaps not among the power gamer set. I agree its not one of the more popular classes. Neither are bards. Lots of folks I know hate playing bards. There's nothing wrong with bards though.


Not only that, groups are asking "why have lay on hands in here." And they come to the conclusion they don't prefer someone w/ LOH over another DPS'er, or a better healer/buffer.

I could care less what groups want, its what the player wants that matters. Don't fall to peer pressure to make the character that everyone else wants you to play. Play what you like.


Paladins are dear to me. A paladin was my first melee character, and my 2nd character overall. I have every quest done on elite w/ my pally, except abbot and shroud. I've spend a good amount of time w/ him. I won't accept simply letting it go w/ people saying "why not play another class" and decide "yeah, why not," and leave paladins to be some niche class, admitting "yeah, it's the weakest class, but 1 of them has to be, right?"

I hear you there. I don't fault you for wanting more. I don't think you are greedy. But paladins are a defensive fighting class. Their abbilities should reflect that reguardless of the meta game of the latest module. What some folks say to me is like "I love my wife but I wish she were skinny and had bigger breasts." I can sympathise but ultimately you made the choice of going with the winning personality and the good cooking. Enjoy what you chose rather than pine for what others picked for themselves. Or, change wives if you must, but trying to make her into something she never was just isn't fair.

Man I do the worst analogies ever!

[sigtrent]

I meant a class that you can make a build to be either of the to as in, you can make it so it can DPS well while taking less damage than a barbarian. DPS would be lower to compensate for that. Or, you could build it for AC and be able to tank. But you could so both with the class, it just depends on how you'd build it.

Thats kind of what fighter is though. Barbarians are offense specialists, paladins are defense specialists, fighters are switch hitters who can swing both ways, but not quite as far in either direction.

Rangers... are cheaters! Right now they seem to get near the barbarians offense while having themselves a pretty darn near as good defense as paladin or fighter (except for HP, but for that there is dwarf... stupid dwarves, they cheat too!)

[Borror0]

No really, I was saying if you want favored enemy more than lay on hands... make a ranger. Really, that is what rangers do, extra damage to certain races. Paladins get healing powers.

Sig, if we would only have one character slot that would work, but we have nine.


If you prefer damage to healing, don't make a paladin because that is where their class abbilities lie.

You want to know the funny part? Bards and clerics heal and deal damage better than a paladin.:D


It just illustrates that its more the meta game than anything else that effects paladins. Its the type of challenges we face more than the class abbilities.

Yes, you are right on that.

You've played PnP Sig, right? Ever been a DM? One of my ex-roomate was. He DM'd the same game for three years. Actually, it was two games. One here, that happenned on Wednesdays, with people he met at school and friends that moved here to study with here, the other was with his childhood friends in his hometown, the weekend. In both games, they reached the level 40s by the end of the third year.

The weekend game was with a bunch of friends that all knew the rules by heart. He played with them many times, in different games. They all powergamed their character like there is no tomorrow. The worse of it was that they all went in a different path. One had insane AC, the other was a psion with insane saves, the other had an incredible to-hit and DPS, the other was a rogue that could falt-floot anything in a heartbeat... anyway, there was no way he could balance an encounter for them. If he set the AC for the highest AC, everyone could only hit him on a 20, if he was setting his to-hit for the highest AC, he could hit the everyone else... it was insane.

It was really tough to create an encounter that wouldn't overpower one or be boring for a player. They were five!

Now, Turbine has a whole playerbase to think about. So, they set standards. How much should players' save be challenged, how about their AC, etc. And they go with it. It'd be very unlikely for them to put something that would challenge so much other players' save. And if it would, it'd probably be a poor choice as it would upset everyone that can't keep up. If you remember the uproar there was around mobs' to-hit when Gianthold came out... it would be nothing compared to it.

As for dispelling, if they dispell that much, I think everyone will simply start wearing Energy Resistance items more often, and guess who will get the short end? High AC characters because they've got all their slots dedicated to AC or other crucial things (like HP or saves). And since paladins are considered high AC characters by Turbine (I hate Eladrin said that, because I disagree with his view.), well they wouldn't be so much improved.

Anyway, all of that to say, it's very unlikely it happens. The most likely is that we'll continue on the same trend where monsters' HP will continue to increase exponentialy belittling paladins' puny DPS furthermore as it's very likely other classes will get more DPS with time, and it's also very likely paladins won't if we continue on the trend we're currently observing... which has to obviously stop.


Their class strenghts are still there, they just don't get much of a work out these days. Again, I'm not against making paladins better at things, but I strongly feel their roll as a self sufficient defensive fighter should be maintained in their class abbilities.

I'm talking about tossing their "self sufficient defensive fighter" nature out, but the fact is they are neither enough defensive nor offensive enough to be interesting in the current metagame.

[Borror0]

Thats kind of what fighter is though. Barbarians are offense specialists, paladins are defense specialists, fighters are switch hitters who can swing both ways, but not quite as far in either direction.

Your desciption of the classes is too simplistic.

I'll agree that barbarians are the ones who will reach the highest DPS in the game, but that's not only what they got. They've got access to very high Will saves and they're the ones who can reach the highest HP... and they do that without even spending 10 APs on Toughness because Toughness is just overkill for them (with the exception of the Shoud on Elite but that quest is broken). They've also got DR, while it's not so great, it's still there.

Paladin aren't so much the defense specialists you depict. Besides Divine Grace, there isn't much for them as a defensive ability. You could name Aura of good, but if you've played PnP, you'll know that this ability has nothing to do with AC but rather allowd you to detect Evil around you.

Of what could be considered defensive, there is Lay on Hands and a few of their spells, but that's about it.

As for fighter, you're on spot. They're capable of being whatever they want. They've got nothing holding them to a style at all. As a result, they they're as good at S&B, TwF or ThF... or as far as these fighting styles go on their own. The problem is that while all of this looks nice and dandy on paper... it doesn't work so good when you start using it for real. Let's hope that WotC will have tested their classes a little more this time for 4th Edition.

The problem with fighters is that they got nothing for their own. Ok, sure they've got loads of feats but... does it really balances for the lack of class abilities? Not so much, and even less in DDO where the good feats are seriously lacking. The problem with feats is that other classes can take them too. So, at the end of the day, the barbarian will always have more HP, higher DPS and better Will saves. (I'm using the barbarian for an easier comparison.)

Sure, fighters can become whatever, but it's not like being a versatile does mean it makes versatile build...

So, what we actually observe in DDO also appears in D&D... and that's the problem. They've got not much for their own. That's why I'm so eager to see what 4th Edition has done of them. If someone has layed his hands on virtual copy of the books, I'd love to have it. Whether it's by direct download or torrent... I don't really care.


Rangers... are cheaters! Right now they seem to get near the barbarians offense while having themselves a pretty darn near as good defense as paladin or fighter

You know what, rangers is Turbine's definition of a balanced class so...

All classes will have to get near of the level rangers are too. That's the problem, you may think that paladins are fine but you also find that rangers are cheating.


(except for HP, but for that there is dwarf... stupid dwarves, they cheat too!)

I won't disagree on that.

Toughness enhancement should be removed totally. But that would increase the rangers' and barbarians' power... -_-

[Mhykke]

TWF has gotten a lot better but THF has always been significantly more damage than sword and board and TWF was better, just not as much better as it is now due to the bump in GTWF and adding OTWF and Tempest. TWF is clearly better than THF at this point (IMO). The gab is bigger and AC has degraded in value (at high levels), but the class is what it is. Its defensive, always has been, always will be (or perhaps not, still reading 4E rules :) ).

I'm not trying to be harsh, and I get what you say. But Paladin just was never ment to be a damage power house class. And there was nothign in the rules that really indicated otherwise.

But I didn't build him to be a damage powerhouse. Sure, THF has always been more damage. But back when the level cap was 10, the mobs hit points weren't as huge as to make sword and board close to irrelevant. A paladin, getting +5 from his DF, swinging a khopesh and holding a shield, had decent DPS. He could kill mobs well (not the best, but fairly well.)


Id prefer to talk about folks that play the game rather than know it. Most players I talk to don't really know the rules inside and out or what other classes (other than what they have played) can do or can't do. There are still folks that think rangers are all archers. I still think if you don't want paladins in your group you are foolish and don't know the game as well as you claim. (I'm not saying you as in Hmykke but you as in paladin no groupers.)

Let's take rangers for example. If we talk in terms of the people that don't know the game all that great, then we'd have to argue that rangers need to be buffed even more, b/c people view them as archers and aren't accepting them into groups. We both know this isn't the case, and rangers are very strong, and don't need to be buffed (leaving aside the issue of ranged combat.)

As to not wanting paladins in groups, I play one, so that'd be pretty masochistic to not want myself in groups. ;)


Sure we can. They are the bulk of the player base in my opinion. "Common wisdom" is where most of this nonsense comes from. Paladins are good to have in your groups unless they are played by fools, just like any other class. Their inferiority in DPS is not a problem if you have a good group and use your paladin effectively.

I think we just have to agree that our opinions deviate here.
Sure, if the paladin is played by a good player, he's not hurting the group by being a part of it. I just believe that if you take that same good player, and put him in another class, depending what would benefit the party the most, the group would be better off w/ any other class.



I think it stems from running in differnt kinds of groups. I play at least half the time with people I would call "casual players" and about half with "hard core players". The reason a paladin is often last man standing is because if the cleric dies they can heal themselves for a while and others can't. A good paladin should be the last man standing in a failed encounter, if they arn't, they are probably doing something wrong. I love when doing a dungion and the group is just barely strong enough to pull it off. Survivors often can save the party from a compleate wipe.

I don't know. I think what I've seen is that if the group runs into something bad enough to come close to wiping the party, then the paladin usually isn't going to be able to kill the danger and bring the group back up. Sure, he may pick up soul stones and run away, but any class that isn't generating aggro can say the same thing.



I get a lot of paladin requests on my build threat, especialy lately. I'd say half of the last set or requests were paladins or "tanks" (which almost always includes at least some paladin levels). Paladins are still quite popular, just perhaps not among the power gamer set. I agree its not one of the more popular classes. Neither are bards. Lots of folks I know hate playing bards. There's nothing wrong with bards though.

I don't know, I think bards have gotten fairly popular since the warchanter/spellsinger introduction. At least it seems like everyone I know has rolled some kind of bard. Most I know don't run a high level paladin.



I could care less what groups want, its what the player wants that matters. Don't fall to peer pressure to make the character that everyone else wants you to play. Play what you like.

This is fine and good to say, but the simple truth is that if you're sitting there as a lvl 16 paladin, and the LFMs are looking at any melee class but paladin, that's a problem.

A little anecdote. There was someone here on the board who got into arguments w/ me over this paladin stuff, and he was on my server. I noticed this person putting a hard shroud group together the other day. He had 4 people in his group, and no paladins. His LFM? Was looking for everything but paladin. Yep, every single class but paladin, and this is from someone who went so far as to argue against paladin ineffectiveness on the forums. I so wanted to switch over to my pally and click join.


I hear you there. I don't fault you for wanting more. I don't think you are greedy. But paladins are a defensive fighting class. Their abbilities should reflect that reguardless of the meta game of the latest module. What some folks say to me is like "I love my wife but I wish she were skinny and had bigger breasts." I can sympathise but ultimately you made the choice of going with the winning personality and the good cooking. Enjoy what you chose rather than pine for what others picked for themselves. Or, change wives if you must, but trying to make her into something she never was just isn't fair.

Man I do the worst analogies ever!

I don't know sig, I still disagree w/ you about paladins being a defensive fighting class in DDO. Maybe not in purpose, but in actual gameplay.

Ignoring the arguments about pigeonholing classes, and defense being weaker than offense in the game...If you want to go paladin and defense, you're basically forced to play 1 race, go after a specific belt, and multiclass w/ fighter to get intimidate as a class skill. It just doesn't feel right to say "paladin is a defensive class" but then have to include "only if you multiclass and not stay pure." And if you do all this, a signature ability (DF) doesn't mesh well w/ the defensive ability of CE.

I think that's a lot of caveats for a defensive class in today's game.

[Borror0]

I'm not trying to be harsh, and I get what you say. But Paladin just was never ment to be a damage power house class. And there was nothign in the rules that really indicated otherwise.

I can see paladins not being a powerhouse, buit whether you make them grab a ThF or a shield, they've got lower DPS and not much to compensate.

The problem is that S&B damage was closer than it now is. They've nerfed DF, increased to-hit making CE more attracting than PA and then procceeded to increase barbarians', bards' and rangers' DPS. Rogues' went up by itself at every odd level. Then, they balanced the mobs to this new high HP. Before, there was a more adequate balance between S&B DPSing and TwF or ThF. If you really want to force them into S&B, well at least make it so that they can S&B effectively.


I get a lot of paladin requests on my build threat, especialy lately. I'd say half of the last set or requests were paladins or "tanks" (which almost always includes at least some paladin levels). Paladins are still quite popular, just perhaps not among the power gamer set.

Yes, but both you and I know that casual gamers do not care about effiency.


Lots of folks I know hate playing bards. There's nothing wrong with bards though.

Actually, bards are the most under-estimated class in the whole game.


I hear you there. I don't fault you for wanting more. I don't think you are greedy. But paladins are a defensive fighting class. Their abbilities should reflect that reguardless of the meta game of the latest module.

When you change the metagame it renders a class less powerful, it's your job as a developer to remedy to the situation. For this, you have access to two tools. You can change the metagame. This is rather hard as you have no clue what collateral effects it may have. Or, you can nerf the other classes. This will upset players, so it's better to be done in the most critical situation. Or, you may boost the class. It's more time consuming, expensive and requires more brain than the others but it's the most predictable one and the one that will satisfy the playerbase more. It may even incite them to play that class, keeping them busy in-between updates.

One thing is sure, you must leave it this way.


Man I do the worst analogies ever!

Yes, you did. I only got two comments on that analogy.

1. What would Anne think of your analogy?
2. I slept with you wife. (http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/5394/screenshot00032nc9.jpg):D Sorry, just remembered that I took that screenshot a long time ago.:D

[Inspire]

You want to know the funny part? Bards and paladins heal and deal damage better than a paladin.:D

Makes Sense... :rolleyes:

[Borror0]

Makes Sense... :rolleyes:

D'oh... that's what I get for posting so late... fixed... xD

[maddmatt70]

With only 2 raids and a raidzone (which sounds to me like a pre-raid) there will not be much to test all of 'your theories' out. AC can be fixed really easy with such a small quest sample just add a bunch of mobs (you don't have to add alot with 3 quests) with a relatively low to hit that do alot of damage when they do hit and watch the squishy lack of ac barbarians die. Then based on 2 raids and a pre-raid all of you can spout off about the return to dominance of the sword and board and defensive tank yadda yadda yadda. Got to love DDO.

[Bunker]

(Inspire(16Brd) Allegiance(11Ftr/3Pal/2Rog) Pearce(16Brb) Woad(16Brb) Untouchable(15Rgr/1Brd) Bashful(13Rog/3Pal) Huckabie(16Sor) Automation(16Clr) Atlantean(16Pal)

Thelanis(Cataclysm/Storm Lords) )

Inspire: Your sig shows Atlantean is lvl 16. Is he already? Or is it just what the finished product will be? If he is lvl 16, get in on the rumble of paladin hate/love strong/weak. Im interested to know what your thoughts are with the first hand playing experience.

[Borror0]

[Stuff]

:confused:

While I have neer been a fan of posts and that I have mostly ended up arguing against you, whether because we simply disagree or because you like to argue with me and send me some "Smack talk" PMs explaining me that I shouldn't bother arguing with you , I have never told myself that you were posting totally based on your emotions or that your posts reflected anger towards another poster or topic until now.

Sorry, but there is no way for me to reply to your post without risking getting infraction points. Really, Madmatt, if you're bored of a topic then just ignore it. You may not be interested by it, but others are. You may disagree with me, but at least disagree to disagree. I'm not here talking alone, but rather debating with Sigtrent and he's not there just for the sake of arguing, but rather because he enjoys the debate. Don't like it, ignore it. It's not like if it'd be your duty to check every single thread on these forums.

If you calm down and realise how riddiculous your post was, just blank it and I'll do the same of mine.

I'm sure you can come up with something more articulate than the post I have quoted. If you're posting just to be pessimistic and trying to provocate me, why do you even bother? Just save you, myself and possibly the forum modetors some time and don't post it. Keep it to a debate and don't try to start a flame war.

Thank you.

[maddmatt70]

:confused:

While I have neer been a fan of posts and that I have mostly ended up arguing against you, whether because we simply disagree or because you like to argue with me and send me some "Smack talk" PMs explaining me that I shouldn't bother arguing with you , I have never told myself that you were posting totally based on your emotions or that your posts reflected anger towards another poster or topic until now.

Sorry, but there is no way for me to reply to your post without risking getting infraction points. Really, Madmatt, if you're bored of a topic then just ignore it. You may not be interested by it, but others are. You may disagree with me, but at least disagree to disagree. I'm not here talking alone, but rather debating with Sigtrent and he's not there just for the sake of arguing, but rather because he enjoys the debate. Don't like it, ignore it. It's not like if it'd be your duty to check every single thread on these forums.

If you calm down and realise how riddiculous your post was, just blank it and I'll do the same of mine.

I'm sure you can come up with something more articulate than the post I have quoted. If you're posting just to be pessimistic and trying to provocate me, why do you even bother? Just save you, myself and possibly the forum modetors some time and don't post it. Keep it to a debate and don't try to start a flame war.

Thank you.

Lol you crack me up Borro. I was referring to the silliness of trying to analyze a game based on only 3 quests which many people soon will in the upcoming mod. This mod with only 6 quests was bad enough. Really ddo controls the mobs and that is some ways the easiest method to fix things just add a couple invaders elite style quests for 16th level characters. Considering we only have 3 quests coming it will not be too hard to do.

What you don't like is I am anti imtimidator and I am against dwarf and barbarian nerfing. A nerf would **** alot of people off if it occurred after over a year of when those changes occurred; and therefor, I am pro increasing and improving the other classes and races as a solution. Alot of the pally experts don't feel these upcoming changes went far enough. GPK, etc. knows what they are talking about so I am not disagreeing I just hate the whole pallys and fighters are gimped jazz because well I take pride in my fighter and he quite frankly doesn't let me down and I am sure that there are alot of pallys that feel the same way..

[Borror0]

I was referring to the silliness of trying to analyze a game based on only 3 quests which many people soon will in the upcoming mod.

You play the game in what it is, Norg.

May they add Invaders! style quests? Yes, they could. May the revise mobs' to-hit from nowon? Yes, they should. But there is one thing you've got to understand. If you play with the metagame, you'll hurt another class regardless. If they add another Invader! stul quest there will be another class that will be messed up. If they keep up on that path, then it'll be that other class who will need boosting rather than paladin... or anything else can happen.

Playing with the metagame is hard, it will most likely lead unpredicted changes. Even more if it'd be a drastic change like making all these raids some Invaders! type quests. At best, what it'll do is annoy the playerbase. Ok, now plaladins are uber in those... now what about our non-paladin toons with normal saves?! There'd be many adjustement to do to many classes... bad change.

If they don't keep the trend, then it'd be plaster to the issue and make those quest annoying to rerun in the future.

Playing with mobs' to-hit is less dangerous as it affects less builds and the results are more predictable. The worse that can happen is a player only getting hit on a 20 in all quests. They just got to make sure it's not overpowering by itself and it's alright. A change to mobs' DCs is much more unpredictable... unless failing on a 2 isn't an issue for the classes that will have much trouble getting there...


I am anti imtimidator

What should I conclude from that?


A nerf would **** alot of people off if it occurred after over a year of when those changes occurred; and therefor, I am pro increasing and improving the other classes and races as a solution.

I'm for boosting over nerfing too, but what you fail to understand is that there are things that boosting up can't fix.


I just hate the whole pallys and fighters are gimped jazz because well I take pride in my fighter and he quite frankly doesn't let me down and I am sure that there are alot of pallys that feel the same way..

Find me a recent post where I said "Fighters are gimped". You'll search in vain.

I'm not saying they're gimped, heck my main is one. All I'm saying is that they need their power to brang up to par with the rest.

[maddmatt70]

You play the game in what it is, Norg.

May they add Invaders! style quests? Yes, they could. May the revise mobs' to-hit from nowon? Yes, they should. But there is one thing you've got to understand. If you play with the metagame, you'll hurt another class regardless. If they add another Invader! stul quest there will be another class that will be messed up. If they keep up on that path, then it'll be that other class who will need boosting rather than paladin... or anything else can happen.


Actually I think there is a very real possibility they will add invader quests this mod not for paladins but for monks actually. The early reviews from Risia (I don't play there, but some of my friends do) is that monks are a more defensive class. They will almost certainly do less dps then a ranger or a barbarian, but they have awesome defensive capabilities and are great soloist. Turbine has bet what's left on designing, developing, and marketing the monks so do you really think it is going to put quests that are anti-monk and pro barbarian? I mean they have already listed out some of the mobs in the raid zone and amongst those listed is beholders and mind flayer which are for heavy save oriented characters and they have listed undead and living spells which can't be critted of course - oh sorry barbarians, but will not affect the monks nearly so much with their 20 crit range with their fists and on most of their weapon types. Oh there will be devils and such for the rangers and barbs to banish, but if there are invaders style devils (they are introducing horned devils) the barbarians with 0 ac will not have such an easy time of it. My advice to whomever is leading the raids for the first time because I will probably not with the current crew I am running with is to make sure you have at least 1 ac guy with decent hit points i.e. fighter or pally because this time things might be a little different then your barbarian as main tanks with ranger off tank strategy and flexibility on a raid for the first time is key...

[Borror0]

Actually I think there is a very real possibility they will add invader quests this mod not for paladins but for monks actually. The early reviews from Risia (I don't play there, but some of my friends do) is that monks are a more defensive class.

I have my own theories about monks, but I rather wait to see them in action before saying anything about them. One thing is certain, they'll be able to reac paladin-like saves without any effort. I think that Monks will simply do every better than paladins, including DPS... they'll loose out on a few useless buffs but that's all.

I also think it'll be possible to spec them as a more offensive build, without a DPS as good as a barbarian, but balanced by saves and finishing moves.

But that's all theories and guessing.

[sigtrent]

Sig, if we would only have one character slot that would work, but we have nine..

There are hundreds, perhaps thousands of types of characters you can make. I don't have any paladin heavy characters... know why? I don't like predominantly defensive fighters, especialy paladins. Never have. On the very rare occasions I've played them in PnP its been for entirely RP reasons and I pretty much always multi class them because as a pure character they are pretty boring.

The only paladin I made I quite liked was an NPC who I build purely for survival and had all the feats that let you naturaly recover from stat damage and not bleed to death etc... so that if left for dead in a ditch she'd be hale and healthy inside of a week. She wasn't too pretty and she wasn't all that strong but she just wouldn't die.


You want to know the funny part? Bards and clerics heal and deal damage better than a paladin.:D.

Sort of... Bards can, definately and clerics can if you don't mind shafting their other class benefits a bit (wisdom/cha) but clerics will only excede paladin by one or two points of damage per swing and are very buff dependent to do it. The paladin has better defenses than either. Thats because..... repeat after me.... paladins are a defensive class.


You've played PnP Sig, right? Ever been a DM? One of my ex-roomate was. He DM'd the same game for three years. Actually, it was two games. One here, that happenned on Wednesdays, with people he met at school and friends that moved here to study with here, the other was with his childhood friends in his hometown, the weekend. In both games, they reached the level 40s by the end of the third year..

:D Oh ya. Been playing for about 20 years in fact, mostly as a DM. In 20 years thouh I've never had a campaign go over level 15. I just don't like how D&D plays much beyond level 12 or so for various reasons. I just finished my first scan of 4E, looks like they handle high levels much better now. It doesn't get so out of control.


The weekend game was with a bunch of friends that all knew the rules by heart. He played with them many times, in different games. They all powergamed their character like there is no tomorrow. The worse of it was that they all went in a different path. One had insane AC, the other was a psion with insane saves, the other had an incredible to-hit and DPS, the other was a rogue that could falt-floot anything in a heartbeat... anyway, there was no way he could balance an encounter for them. If he set the AC for the highest AC, everyone could only hit him on a 20, if he was setting his to-hit for the highest AC, he could hit the everyone else... it was insane.

Exactly, D&D breaks down badly at high levels.


Now, Turbine has a whole playerbase to think about. So, they set standards. How much should players' save be challenged, how about their AC, etc. And they go with it. It'd be very unlikely for them to put something that would challenge so much other players' save. And if it would, it'd probably be a poor choice as it would upset everyone that can't keep up. If you remember the uproar there was around mobs' to-hit when Gianthold came out... it would be nothing compared to it.

I disagree. Every player and build type should have opportunities to shine and be the hero. That's part of the fun of the D&D class system in PnP. Sometimes you give challenges the social character is an expert at, sometimes its the wizard, sometimes its the brute fighter that saves the day. And sometimes its the guy that can withstand any punishment you throw at them. Part fo the fun for the DM is to scare the players with the thing they know they have no defense against.


As for dispelling, if they dispell that much, I think everyone will simply start wearing Energy Resistance items more often, and guess who will get the short end? High AC characters because they've got all their slots dedicated to AC or other crucial things (like HP or saves). And since paladins are considered high AC characters by Turbine (I hate Eladrin said that, because I disagree with his view.), well they wouldn't be so much improved. .

Variety is good. we should have some adventures where dispelling is super common and others where its mostly brute monsters that can hit any ac, and others where its hordes of small critters that do lots of damage so high AC shines. As a long time DM, that is usualy what makes adventures most fun. Different challenges you must adapt to in order to overcome them. Often its best to mix such encounters in the same adventure. One of turbines problems is they seem to match theme with mechanic so we get dungions with nothing but the same kind of encoutner over and over again.


Anyway, all of that to say, it's very unlikely it happens. The most likely is that we'll continue on the same trend where monsters' HP will continue to increase exponentialy belittling paladins' puny DPS furthermore as it's very likely other classes will get more DPS with time, and it's also very likely paladins won't if we continue on the trend we're currently observing... which has to obviously stop..

That would be a shame.


I'm talking about tossing their "self sufficient defensive fighter" nature out, but the fact is they are neither enough defensive nor offensive enough to be interesting in the current metagame.

I disagree about not being defensive enough. Their defenses are quite good, the best in the game in fact. There are some monsters that no one should be able to tank, and some monsters that almost anyone can tank, and lots in between.

[sigtrent]

Your desciption of the classes is too simplistic.
I'll agree that barbarians are the ones who will reach the highest DPS in the game, but that's not only what they got. They've got access to very high Will saves and they're the ones who can reach the highest HP... and they do that without even spending 10 APs on Toughness because Toughness is just overkill for them (with the exception of the Shoud on Elite but that quest is broken). They've also got DR, while it's not so great, it's still there.
[/QUOTE]

Sure they get other abbiliities, everyone does. Saying their will saves are great is pretty absurd if you ask me. The get +2 while raging and generaly start wtih an 8 wisdom, its a weak save for them. They can buff it +3 with enhancements but pretty much never do. Better than a rogue, ranger or fighter but junk compared to paladin & cleric and a bit less than most bard, wizard, sorcerer characters.


Paladin aren't so much the defense specialists you depict. Besides Divine Grace, there isn't much for them as a defensive ability. You could name Aura of good, but if you've played PnP, you'll know that this ability has nothing to do with AC but rather allowd you to detect Evil around you.

Dont start that with me! Paladins are chock full of healing spells and defensive buff spells. In D&D healing is a basicaly defensive power as it keeps you alive rather than kills the enemy. They do have a protection from evil auroa and that is what is essentialy replaced/upgraded by our current aura (uses the same icon, or used to at any rate). Paladins get mostly defensive abbilities in pnp and in dnd. The only thingk they get that isn't defensive is a horse and smite evil, and turn undead which is sort of offensive.


Of what could be considered defensive, there is Lay on Hands and a few of their spells, but that's about it.

Full armor (only fighters and clerics also have it in pnp), divine grace, multiple status immunities, healing, status healing, protection from evil aura, near top end HP.


As for fighter, you're on spot. They're capable of being whatever they want. They've got nothing holding them to a style at all. As a result, they they're as good at S&B, TwF or ThF... or as far as these fighting styles go on their own. The problem is that while all of this looks nice and dandy on paper... it doesn't work so good when you start using it for real. Let's hope that WotC will have tested their classes a little more this time for 4th Edition.

Fighters do just fine, on paper or otherwise. Fighters are a fine class in DDO. All they are missing are some fun prestige enhancements and I'm sure they will get them sooner or later. Apparently paladins still have some in the works as well.


The problem with fighters is that they got nothing for their own. Ok, sure they've got loads of feats but... does it really balances for the lack of class abilities? Not so much, and even less in DDO where the good feats are seriously lacking. The problem with feats is that other classes can take them too. So, at the end of the day, the barbarian will always have more HP, higher DPS and better Will saves. (I'm using the barbarian for an easier comparison.)

People just don't value versatility these days. A fighter can get 90% of the paladins AC and 90% of the barbarians DPS in the same character (although not at the same time). Whats bad about that? It's almost exactly what my build does (although I'm more like 60% lol) but the point is if I need defense, Ive got that, if I need DPS, I've got that too. If I need to heal, I can do that. If I need to shoot something wtih a bow, I'm decent at that. I adjust my play to fit the challenge so that every challenge can be overcome instead of just taking my hammer and applying it to the nail, the screw, the staple and everything else I see. Sure it works but its not better, just easier.


Sure, fighters can become whatever, but it's not like being a versatile does mean it makes versatile build...

I think it does. Thats what I play.


So, what we actually observe in DDO also appears in D&D... and that's the problem. They've got not much for their own. That's why I'm so eager to see what 4th Edition has done of them. If someone has layed his hands on virtual copy of the books, I'd love to have it. Whether it's by direct download or torrent... I don't really care.

Send me an email (sigfried@gmail.com)


You know what, rangers is Turbine's definition of a balanced class so...
All classes will have to get near of the level rangers are too. That's the problem, you may think that paladins are fine but you also find that rangers are cheating.

Rangers are cheating but they are fine too. Its not liek there is no reason to make another class. Ranger will saves are poor, they almost have to be dwarves if you want a lot of HP and dwarven rangers are... unfashionable :P

I'd love to see paladins get better and have more cool stuff, but I want it to be things that fit the feel of the class well. I'm all for adding the spells from the compendium and giving them cooler prestige enhancements, even one that takes them in a more DPS direction like warchanter does for bards. I think those things justify moving a class in a somewhat different direction.


Toughness enhancement should be removed totally. But that would increase the rangers' and barbarians' power... -_-

I don't think toughness is that bad in DDO. It helps give some classes extra HP and set them a bit more appart from the baseline. I do think that it shouldn't be given to any race as its just too much of a skew for a racial bonus. Since I don't like nerfs so much I'd give it to WF as well and make the human heal bonus much cheaper so it can compete with toughness as a tanking option.

[sigtrent]

You boys have worn me out! I've got to stop talking paladin and get some work done. Thanks all I shall retreat quietly into the night untill the next inflamatory statment heats my blood and I cannot contain myself. While were not exactly on the same page you guys make your arguments quite well.


I
1. What would Anne think of your analogy?
2. I slept with you wife. (http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/5394/screenshot00032nc9.jpg):D Sorry, just remembered that I took that screenshot a long time ago.:D

Lol... no sleeping with Anne! My analogy of course has nothing to do wtih my own wife other than she is indeed a good cook and has a winning personality. I suppose I offer it because I'm quite happy with exactly who my wife is and I often meet others who are not and I wonder... they why did you marry them? Did you think they would magicaly transform? Just a pet peve of mine. And lets just say I share some qualities with Sir Mixalalot if you know where I'm coming from.

[Inspire]

(Inspire(16Brd) Allegiance(11Ftr/3Pal/2Rog) Pearce(16Brb) Woad(16Brb) Untouchable(15Rgr/1Brd) Bashful(13Rog/3Pal) Huckabie(16Sor) Automation(16Clr) Atlantean(16Pal)

Thelanis(Cataclysm/Storm Lords) )

Inspire: Your sig shows Atlantean is lvl 16. Is he already? Or is it just what the finished product will be? If he is lvl 16, get in on the rumble of paladin hate/love strong/weak. Im interested to know what your thoughts are with the first hand playing experience.

Yeah, Hes 14 Atm, Almost 15, I Love Playing Him, Hes Usually Top Kill Count And Last Man Standing, But Maybe Thats Just What Ive Been Seeing On The Way Up To 14 Or The Way I Play, Etc Etc.

Hes Soloed Gola-Fan And Slavers On Elite Without Recalling (Although Gola-Fan Hit Me With A Pretty Good Disentegrate)

Very Reliable Class, The Only Raid I Havent Done With Him Yet Is The Shroud, So I Guess Thats What Everyone Compares Paladins DPS To These Days, That And RwtD, Eager To Try Him Out In Those.

Id Be Lying If I Said Hes Not Twinked Or W/e, Maybe Thats Why He Excells My Expectations As To What Im Reading On The Forums About Paladins, Holy Sword Is Gonna Be Crazy In Mod7 For The Fiend Btw And Since He Stands Still The Entire Time In Part 4(Unless You Count The Subtle Movements From Sleet Storm) Crit Smites Are Gonna Destroy Him With A +5 Holy Burst Silver Khopesh IMO.

He Is Currently At 27Str(28 At 16) 20Dex 21Con 13Int 18Wis 26Cha, 30 29 30 Saves, 349Hps(Con 6 Item Will Be On His Ooze 2 Khopesh)

Hes Waiting On, Min2 Helm(Just Need Shards) 2nd Tier Stalemate Goggles(Just Need Shards) And OozeII KHopesh(Just Need Shards) - Been Farming Alot Of Ingredients For This Guy(And My Monk) Have An Essance Of Cleansing For Him Etc Etc.

Summary: I Cant Really Relate To This Post Much, For How I Play In Game, Sure Add Some Stuff For Paladins, The Negative Things People Are Posting About How Pallys Are Weak Wont Change Mind Mind About Putting Atlantean On The Bench Anytime Soon, Or Maybe Its Becuase I Still Have That New Paladin Smell(Never Played A Paladin Before), Who Knows.

[maddmatt70]

Yeah, Hes 14 Atm, Almost 15, I Love Playing Him, Hes Usually Top Kill Count And Last Man Standing, But Maybe Thats Just What Ive Been Seeing On The Way Up To 14 Or The Way I Play, Etc Etc.

Hes Soloed Gola-Fan And Slavers On Elite Without Recalling (Although Gola-Fan Hit Me With A Pretty Good Disentegrate)

Very Reliable Class, The Only Raid I Havent Done With Him Yet Is The Shroud, So I Guess Thats What Everyone Compares Paladins DPS To These Days, That And RwtD, Eager To Try Him Out In Those.

Id Be Lying If I Said Hes Not Twinked Or W/e, Maybe Thats Why He Excells My Expectations As To What Im Reading On The Forums About Paladins, Holy Sword Is Gonna Be Crazy In Mod7 For The Fiend Btw And Since He Stands Still The Entire Time In Part 4(Unless You Count The Subtle Movements From Sleet Storm) Crit Smites Are Gonna Destroy Him With A +5 Holy Burst Silver Khopesh IMO.

He Is Currently At 27Str(28 At 16) 20Dex 21Con 13Int 18Wis 26Cha, 30 29 30 Saves, 379Hps(Con 6 Item Will Be On His Ooze 2 Khopesh)

Hes Waiting On, Min2 Helm(Just Need Shards) 2nd Tier Stalemate Goggles(Just Need Shards) And OozeII KHopesh(Just Need Shards) - Been Farming Alot Of Ingredients For This Guy(And My Monk) Have An Essance Of Cleansing For Him Etc Etc.

Summary: I Cant Really Relate To This Post Much, For How I Play In Game, Sure Add Some Stuff For Paladins, The Negative Things People Are Posting About How Pallys Are Weak Wont Change Mind Mind About Putting Atlantean On The Bench Anytime Soon, Or Maybe Its Becuase I Still Have That New Paladin Smell(Never Played A Paladin Before), Who Knows.

Hehe sounds like you are wrecking some havoc with your 'gimped pally'. Interesting that you are going with the Ooze II Khopesh.. I haven't seen too many of those on my server although a buddy of mine went with an ooze guard on his rogue (not high ac build, but high dps build). I think the the holy burst weapon is an outstanding point - this is a weapon any paladin player in the game no matter how casual they are can have and it looks like the two new mob bosses one will almost certainly have dr/silver (flying devil) and the other could have dr/cold iron or something similiar (demon dog). To repeat it is a +5 holyburster which kicks the heck out of anything other then a +1 transmutering gbane, mineral II khopesh, holy silver greater bane, or lightning strike when the dr is low...

[Inspire]

Hehe sounds like you are wrecking some havoc with your 'gimped pally'. Interesting that you are going with the Ooze II Khopesh.. I haven't seen too many of those on my server although a buddy of mine went with an ooze guard on his rogue (not high ac build, but high dps build). I think the the holy burst weapon is an outstanding point - this is a weapon any paladin player in the game no matter how casual they are can have and it looks like the two new mob bosses one will almost certainly have dr/silver (flying devil) and the other could have dr/cold iron or something similiar (demon dog). To repeat it is a +5 holyburster which kicks the heck out of anything other then a +1 transmutering gbane, mineral II khopesh, holy silver greater bane, or lightning strike when the dr is low...

OozeII, +6 Con/Icy Burst/+4 Insight Ac: -4Ac On A Hit(50%Ish) This Allows My Paladin(And The Party) To Connect With The Higher Ac Mob's While In Combat Expertise With A Semi-Low To-Hit, Also The Look On Peoples Face When The Ooze Appears Is Hillarious.

As For Your Friend, My Barbarians Are In The Process Of Doing The Same Thing, They Get Hit Alot, Why Not Turn That Into A Benefit? They Both Have Crushing Wave Guards, Lets Add A Little More :D

[Borror0]

There are hundreds, perhaps thousands of types of characters you can make.

But Sig, that's not the point. It's not that we don't like a defensive characters, but rather that we don't like how they behave in DDO's metagame. We're not alone. If you don't believe I like defensive characters, well look at my Intimitank's build.;)

The issue is that a paladin is very unappealing for their design than what they could be.


The paladin has better defenses than either. Thats because..... repeat after me.... paladins are a defensive class.

False. Bards can UMD Stoneskin wands (or scrolls), they have crowd-control including Fascinate and both you and I know how powerful that is, they can cast Displacement for 50% miss chance, they can heal better than a paladin and will be able to use Heal scrolls.

As for clerics, they also got crowd-control, and healing is a defensive capacity that superceeds anything a paladin can do.


I just finished my first scan of 4E, looks like they handle high levels much better now. It doesn't get so out of control.

Doesn't it come out the 6th? I'm really curious to see it and check at how they handle fighters and paladins...


I disagree. Every player and build type should have opportunities to shine and be the hero. That's part of the fun of the D&D class system in PnP. [...] Part fo the fun for the DM is to scare the players with the thing they know they have no defense against.

But you've got to understand the difference that exists between a PnP game. In a PnP game, the DM constructs an encounter for his players knowing they will face it only once. If it blows, well he'll appologise and will try to make it better for next time. It's alright to challenge your players. However, in DDO it's totally different.

Since DDO is an MMO, the same quest is going to be run multiple times. A nice quest will be ran very often, an annoying, as little as possible. If they change the metagame, players will simply adapt to it, period. Adapting to a new metagame is annoying. Further more when a lot of players are getting bored of running through the same old quests over and over again. Because if the change is too drastic, lots of powergamers will reroll and the gap between casual gamers and powergamers will be wider for a while, as caual gamers always take more time to adapt to the metagame.

If they put a few quest for paladins, if those quests aren't fun for most characters, that quest will be a wasted effort.

We're not in a D&D game were you vary who you challenge each week, but you're rather in a MMO where you must challenge everyone more or so equally in each quests while always favorising a style/class a little more. Changing your metagame to fix a class will only put another class at the bottom unless there was a huge problem in your metagame from the start. So, you're only moving the problem elsewhere rahter than solving it. Anyway, "fixing" a class as more advantages than changing the metagame: it adds more building options to the game. Usually, that's positive. ;)


Variety is good. we should have some adventures where dispelling is super common and others where its mostly brute monsters that can hit any ac, and others where its hordes of small critters that do lots of damage so high AC shines.

It's work if Turbine could release 15 or more dungeons per module, but right now, with two raids and one wilderness area as end game content in the next module, it's impossible for them to do so. Furthermore if they have a module with five quests, one wilderness area and one raid as end game content for the same level range the module before.

It's possible to pull something like what you speak, but it's more complicated than balancing the classes better. If you first balance the classes better within the same guideline of a metagame, then it becomes easier to vary strength for the classes without making a quest too unpopular for most of the players. But then again, it takes more than the few quests they have given us in the two last modules.


That would be a shame.

Well, that's the current trend. I'm describing you what happenned between Module 3.3 and now.


I disagree about not being defensive enough. Their defenses are quite good, the best in the game in fact. There are some monsters that no one should be able to tank, and some monsters that almost anyone can tank, and lots in between.

Until the day a tank becomes overpowered, I will disagree with you. then, I'd be on your side to downpower it.;)
I just disagree that we're as close to an healthy balance as you think we are.

[Borror0]

Saying their will saves are great is pretty absurd if you ask me. The get +2 while raging and generaly start wtih an 8 wisdom, its a weak save for them. They can buff it +3 with enhancements but pretty much never do. Better than a rogue, ranger or fighter but junk compared to paladin & cleric and a bit less than most bard, wizard, sorcerer characters.

They get +2 while raging, they also get Indomitable Will for a +4 bonus against enchantements that stacks (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/barbarian.htm#indomitableWill) with the previously stated bonus! And, they can also increase their Will saves up to by 3! (http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Enhancement:Barbarian_Willpower_III) So, yeah, they Will saves is really high.


In D&D healing is a basicaly defensive power as it keeps you alive rather than kills the enemy.

Healing, like clerics and bards? :D


The only thing they get that isn't defensive is a horse and smite evil, and turn undead which is sort of offensive.

And Divine Favor, and Holy Sword, and another another bunch of buffs...


A fighter can get 90% of the paladins AC and 90% of the barbarians DPS in the same character (although not at the same time).

False! A barbarian has +8 to damage more than a fighter from his enhancements!!
Then, you factor Critical Rage II which a bonus of around 16% to DPS over a barbarian without!!

Then, you go further lower if you don't have either the ThF or TwF line.

A fighter is a weak DPS class in comparison to others.


It's almost exactly what my build does (although I'm more like 60% lol) but the point is if I need defense, Ive got that, if I need DPS, I've got that too.

Sigfried, every single defensive build in the game can say the same thing, but the percentage of damage is much lower than you actually say it is. You most likely don't possess the ThF feats and you don't have Critical Rage II. Right there, the gap has gotten over 80%! Then you need to factor a barbarian will do 8 more per swing than you will.

But to pass my argument, any defensive build can grab a two-hander and do around the same amount of damage.
It's nothing exclusive to fighters.


If I need to heal, I can do that.

I know you're talking about you build, but fighters can't do that.


If I need to shoot something wtih a bow, I'm decent at that.

Very situational, isn't it?


I adjust my play to fit the challenge so that every challenge can be overcome instead of just taking my hammer and applying it to the nail, the screw, the staple and everything else I see. Sure it works but its not better, just easier.

I rather use the best toold at my disposition rather than have all of them on me. Because if every brings their own tools, they might be of better quality than if I struggle to carry them all. We don't have any screwdrivers? We'll just ponder on what's the best tool to get the job done and go to town. Versatility isn't needed most of the time because you can use your brain and find a way to circumvent the problem.

I rather have fewer tools, but better ones. Get the job done quicker most of the time.


I think it does. Thats what I play.

There is a difference between versatile build, and effective within versatility. (Not directed at you.)

It does mean you can do it that you're that good at it, and that's the problem with the fighter's verstatility argument. Fighters can be build to do a little bit of everything, but that's not like it'd be a good thing. How often do you really need to move out of you favored combat mode to do something else? If you're spec'd for DPS, very rarely. Mostly when running premodule 4 quests... like that would be hard...

And, saying fighters are versatile is false. Fighter is a versatile class, meaning that you can do whatever you want of them from the start. However, if you try to build them to make a versatile character, other classes would let you build something much more effective. First of all, there is the bard who are simply the most versatile class in the game. But they are not versatile in the same way a fighter is versatile, so I'll use comparisons closer to the fighter.

There's two classes who acheive greater versatility than the fighter does. First one is the rogue class. Rogues got UMD and Evasion, that's mostly known. What is also known by most knowledgeable players is that they are crazy DPSers, whether you go TwF or S&B, they'll out-DPS a barbarian. The fun starts when a rogue can build itself for TwF but reach a really high AC. It's not like it'd be costy for a rogue to grab CE, most of them got 13 Int or more anyway. Their AC might not be as much as a fully spec fighter, but that's not the issue as we're talking about versatility. Then, their sneak attack confers them DPS much higher than what the fighter can dream of. Rogues also got much more skill points, making them versatile in that aspect too.

As for rangers, they got the TwF feats for free. That's called free DPS. They've also got Evasion and a list of spells, increasing their versatility. Make them grab CE, and they'll reach fairly good AC with a shield. Not effective, but versatile and that's what we're talking about. They've also got Favored Defense to push their AC 3 points higher versus their favored enemies. Then, they also got a bunch of Bow feats to make them further more versatile.

If you want versatility, there are simply much better options than a fighter.
(However splashing fighter helps, but that's not the point.)


Ranger will saves are poor, they almost have to be dwarves if you want a lot of HP and dwarven rangers are... unfashionable :P

First, dwarves look awesome. Males elves are fraky though.
Secondly, you just prove the problem with Toughness. I'm not going to argue that.


I'd love to see paladins get better and have more cool stuff, but I want it to be things that fit the feel of the class well.

Yes, I agree you can push a class in a certain direction, but don't push it in the direction.

I don't know if I'm sounding any clear, so I'll try to explain myself. They have not centered barbarian's feats around a fighting style. Of course an high strength favors ThF but that's not like pushing paladins towards AC with the argument they are a defensive class. Afterall, you can be more defensive while still being focused on offense. Take warchanters for example. The race you choose as an impact on how offesnive you are, if you go human, you may take khopeshes and get good damage but you loose survability over dwarves that got Dwarven Spell Defense and Toughness. You could also go Drow and stick with rapiers dealing further more damage but loosing even more survavility via lower Con.

Now, if you bring back that analogy to offensive builds, paladins could be the dwarves of that example (but paladin shouldn't have as overpowered enhancements as dwarves have). Paladins would lead you to less damage, but their defensive would offset that lack of DPS like it currently does for rangers. That's why you shouldn't base the paladins' defense around AC, it reduces the benefits you can get from it from a character building point of view. Anyway, it's not like it'd be easy to gather the gear to get a significant Armor Class in today's end game. Not choosing AC as their core defensive ability, and tagging it as a secondary bonus that anyone can get and where they do not have a clear advantage (not to confuse clear advantage with advantage), is safer. It considers a wider range of the playerbase and it'll not disapear into nothingness if one day our Armor Class simply cannot compete with mobs' to-hit.

This is for this reason that no class should have bonus to AC through their enhancements, or at least, not bonuses that no one would have access to. If it's something inherent to the class like armor profiencies, or spells, I'm obviously ok with it. But there is no reason to make a class better on AC on purpose, you're doing a diservice to that class anyway.

And I'll also restate my point that boosting paladin's DPS is still not going against the class' mentality. Paladin were fine in DPS, but Turbine nerfed DF as WotC wanted them to bring it to PnP standards and then proceeded to boost rangers, bards and barbarians. Leavibng paladins and fighters behind with lower DPS than what it was before. I simply disagree with those who will say that paladins' and fighters' DPS are supposed to be that low. Lower, I may agree. This low, however, isn't right. It's too low.


Since I don't like nerfs so much I'd give it to WF as well and make the human heal bonus much cheaper so it can compete with toughness as a tanking option.

I agree for WFs. If Turbine truely intend to leave it like this, then at least give it to WFs. As for Human, I really doubt that the healing enhancement would do anything. The most common healing spell thrown at end game is heal, and it's not like many people have enough HP to not get totally healed. As we get to level 18, a lot of clerics will have Heal, Mass. So, they'll throw huge cure spells at us in AoE. It may work during that level range if there is no Devotion IX items, but that would be the only way.

And, even if the Human healing enhancement would do anything. What about halflings? There is no reason to leave them behind in that aspect. You can always argue that Drows and Elves have a -2 Con to explain they're getting nothing. But you cannot say the same about halflings. They would deserve something. and so would any race you would add after that.

And that's not the only issue. Like anything in D&D, it gets problematic in higher levels. And the sad part is that DDO will make it even worse, by both the Toughness enhancements and the way they calculate HDs. You see, in D&D, the average HD for a rogue is 3.5 if you ignore he gets automaticly 6 HP on his HD at level one. For a barbarian, it's 6.5, rather than the 12 we have in DDO. So, you get a difference of 3 HP per level in D&D and a difference of 12 HP in DDO. Then, Turbine adds bonuses to barbarian's constitution that other classes don't get.

The same kind of gap is observable for fighters. In PnP it's a gap of 2 HP, in DDO it's a gap of 4 HP. Then, Turbine added Toughness to make that gap greater of 50 HP!! Of course, that adds to usually higher Con of fighters and barbarians over rogues. But that's not all, such a gap is also observable between classes. Turbine added Con constitution bonuses enhancement to dwarves and also Toughness enhancements.

So, how do you think it'll be like at level 20? Turbine has to balance their encounters for the little elf rogue, but also for the dwarven barbarian or fighter. They must also take into account that not all will have the most uber gear, but some will. Since HP is pretty much the only defense at end game, you may get to a point where damage is not a treat for higher HD classes but still very dangerous for those elf rogues.

You may make most damage via spell but anyone with high enough reflex saves, Evasion and high HP will be overpowered, but bards will be totally screwed up. Simply put, too high gaps in whatever just messes up the game. Even more when it's something vital to everyone, like HP is. I love the concept of the enhancement system that allows you to increase the varity between races... but it's something you must be careful with and not give too big bonuses.


While were not exactly on the same page you guys make your arguments quite well..

At least I try. ;)

It's fun to debate with someone not going into insults, straw-mans and other fallacious arguments when he disagrees with you. :)

[Borror0]

Ok, want to know?

I want it to be capable of doing the two following things in non-sub-optimal way:

DPSer with higher survability
Defensive tank (must be able to taunt)

It must be able to do these while staying pure, even if multiclassing improves it.
Of course, they're two different builds.

I'm just adding that Wizard of the Coast seems to agree with me. In their 4th Edition Player Handbook, they explain that there are two types of paladins. The first type is the one who focuses on offense, the Avenging Paladin. The second is the one who focuses on defense, the Protecting Paladin. All of that I'll quote here can be found at page 90.


Avenging Paladin
You burn with the desire to punish the wicked and smite the unbelievers. In your view, the best way to safeguard your allies is to destroy your enemies with divine power and overwhelming attacks. Choose Strength as your highest ability score, since your most
damaging attacks are based on Strength. Charisma should be your second-best ability score, and Wisdom your third. Consider wielding a big two-handed weapon such as a greatsword or greataxe, and choose powers that deliver the highest amount of damage.

Protecting Paladin
You emphasize defense, guarding your allies, and healing and bolstering them with a few of your powers. You do not deal as much damage as the avenging paladin, but you are better at dealing with a wider array of situations. Your best ability score should be
Charisma. Choose Strength for your second-best score (you’ll want a few Strength-based attacks), and Wisdom as your third-best score. The protecting paladin works best as a shield-carrying warrior, so you should probably use a heavy shield and a one-handed weapon such as a longsword or a warhammer. Select powers that help your allies, along with a few damage dealing powers for when the need arises.

They also make sure that we know that any paladin can be a mix of something between the two.

As for the taunt feature, both fighters and paladins got similar features. Here's Divine Challenge, which is an ability that a paladin can perform at will, as many time as he wants per day without any restriction. Also, an interesting though is that your number of Lay on Hands is equal to your Wisdom modifier.


Divine Challenge:
You boldly confront a nearby enemy, searing it with divine light if it ignores your challenge.
At-Will ✦ Divine, Radiant
Minor Action Close burst 5
Target: One creature in burst
Effect: You mark the target. The target remains marked until you use this power against another target, or if you fail to engage the target (see below). A creature can be subject to only one mark at a time. A new mark supersedes a mark that was already in place.

While a target is marked, it takes a –2 penalty to attack rolls for any attack that doesn’t include you as a target. Also, it takes radiant damage equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier the first time it makes an attack that doesn’t include you as a target before the start of your next turn. The damage increases to 6 + your Charisma modifier at 11th level, and to 9 + your Charisma modifier at 21st level.

On your turn, you must engage the target you challenged or challenge a different target. To engage the target, you must either attack it or end your turn adjacent to it. If none of these events occur by the end of your turn, the marked condition ends and you can’t use divine challenge on your next turn.

You can use divine challenge once per turn.

Special: Even though this ability is called a challenge, it doesn’t rely on the intelligence or language ability of the
target. It’s a magical compulsion that affects the creature’s behavior, regardless of the creature’s nature. You can’t place
a divine challenge on a creature that is already affected by your or another character’s divine challenge.

As for what a burst is, it can be found at p. 272.


✦ Burst: A burst starts in an origin square and extends in all directions to a specified number of squares from the origin square. For example, the cleric power flame strike is a burst 2 within 10 squares of you, which means the power originates in a square up to 10 squares away from you and affects the origin square and every square within 2 squares of it (a 5-square-by-5-square area). Unless a power description notes otherwise, a close burst you create does not affect you. However, an area burst you create does affect you. A burst affects a target only if there is line of effect from the burst’s origin square to the target.

[sigtrent]

Borr: Reguarding fighters being versatile.

Go read over this build then come back and tell me how its AC and Damage fails to match up to around 90% of a paladin and/or barbarian when tanked/DPS focused.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=148172

For my money this is yoru classic fighter build (or simmilar but with stunning blow in there). As to why have two different fighting styles? Because different parites and qeusts can call for different tactics.

[Borror0]

Borr: Reguarding fighters being versatile.

Looking at the build right now. You scared me. I thought you had forgotten this thread. ;)

[Borror0]

Ok, so I'm going to analyse that build, if you let me.

I'll then proceed to compare it to a paladin and a barbarian.

For the paladin, I've chosen Dexxaan's Buttus Chaosblade (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=126290).
For the barbarian, I've chosen Shade's Axer (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1283280&postcount=3).

Let me know if you have any opposition.

Fighter:



Str: 36 (+13)
17 Base
3 Enhancement
4 Level
6 Item
2 Tome
2 Madstone Rage
2 Rage potion


Damage (ThF): +39
+20 Str
+10 PA
+5 weapon
+4 GWS


Damage (S&B): +21
+12 Str (Removing rage)
+5 weapon
+4 GWS


Armor Class:
10 Base
+13 Armor
+9 Shield
+5 Protection
+6 Dodge
+2 Aura
+5 Dex
+4 Insight
+5 Combat Expertise
59 Unbuffed + 3 Barskin + 1 Haste



Barbarian:



Str: 46 (+18)
18 Base
4 Levels
6 Item
2 Tome
10 Greater Rage w/ enhancements
2 Madstone Rage
2 Rage potion


Damage (ThF): +48
+27 Str
+16 PA w/ enhancements
+5 weapon



Paladin:



Str: 28 (+9)
16 Base
4 Level
6 Item
2 Tome


Damage (S&B): +19
+9 Str
+5 weapon
+2 GWS
+3 Divine Favor


Armor Class:
10 Base
+14 Armor
+9 Shield
+5 Protection
+6 Dodge
+4 Aura
+5 Dex
+4 Insight
+5 Combat Expertise
62 Unbuffed + 3 Barskin + 1 Haste

Now that we got our numbers defined, let's compare:
Weapon used will be Holy, Good Burst weapons.


Barbarian:
Maul

(48+9)*16/20 + (171+6+14)*4/20 + 7 + 3,5 = 94,3


Fighter (ThF):
Greatsword

(39+10,5)*16/20 + (148,5+6+10,5)*4/20 + 7 + 3,5 = 83,1


Fighter (S&B):
Khopesh

(21+5,5)*16/20 + (79,5+14)*4/20 + 7 + 3,5 = 50,4


Paladin:
Khopesh

(19+5,5)*16/20 + (73,5+14)*4/20 + 7 + 3,5 = 47,6


Now, in proportion.

Barbarian:

Fighter (S&B): 187,1%
Fighter (ThF): 113,5%
Paladin: 198,1%

Fighter (S&B):

Barbarian: 53,4%
Fighter (ThF): 60,6%
Paladin: 105,9%

Fighter (ThF):

Barbarian: 88,1%
Fighter (S&B): 164,8%
Paladin: 174,5%

Paladin:

Barbarian: 50,5%
Fighter (S&B): 94,4%
Fighter (ThF): 57,3%


So, I was wrong.:p The DPS is closer one to another than what I thought. But then, the ThF lines are more in favor of the barbarian. On another note, anyone find it's aberant that a barbarian can deal twice as much DPS than a S&B paladin without taking in acount the ThF lines!? Or am I alone?

Anyway, I won't say the versatility will be worth it. I think that's a little too limited to say that.

Borror0

PS: I'll calculate a ThF Paladin later on tonight or tomorrow.
PPS: If I have forgotten anything, let me know.

[maddmatt70]

PPS: If I have forgotten anything, let me know.

You forgot Monks. We can't post anything without posting something about Monks. It is in the forum handbook last I checked..

[sigtrent]

Barbarians str is 2 points too high, and paladins can use rage potions... (not that they often do...)
So the barb looses 2pts of str damage there.

Not that any of that changes the outcome significantly.
But I'm glad you took the time to run out the numbers and see what I'm talking about even if you don't agree with my conclusions.

The DPS margins in the game really arn't quite a drastic as some folks make them out to be. (that said there is a big difference from character built for DPS and one that isn't even wtihin a given class.

[Borror0]

Barbarians str is 2 points too high, and paladins can use rage potions... (not that they often do...)
So the barb looses 2pts of str damage there.

Nope, I'm calculating with the perspective that a paladin will have that DPS when that AC is up. You'll notice that the paladin doesn't have Madstone up either as that prevents him from casting Divine Favor too and that I have also removed Rage for the S&B fighter.

I like running numbers, not because it's fun but because it's something you can look at objectively.

@Norg: I think I did my part for now. (http://ddo.enterwiki.net/page/Monk)

[Illuminati]

Most Pally's, mine included use a Two Handed Weapon and Rage (not Madstone).

Also, you went Max on the Barb. Few ever reach 46 Str non-Scourge.

My Pally, as well as many, will probably be using the Sword of Shadows w/ DS alot. It turns the weapon 'good' and adds a crit multiplier.

Would be nice to see some numbers on that.

[Borror0]

Most Pally's, mine included use a Two Handed Weapon and Rage (not Madstone).

In case you missed it, the paladin is going S&B. I said I'd caculate the ThF version later on.

[Inspire]

Thoughts On Madstone Boots On A Paladin?, No Divine Favor But Gains Melee Alacrity +2Str And +4Con, *Chance Of Double*

[sigtrent]

Nope, I'm calculating with the perspective that a paladin will have that DPS when that AC is up. You'll notice that the paladin doesn't have Madstone up either as that prevents him from casting Divine Favor too and that I have also removed Rage for the S&B fighter.


The Str for the barbarian you list still only adds to 44 and not 46.

[Borror0]

The Str for the barbarian you list still only adds to 44 and not 46.

Right, that's a leftover from when I left double Madstone there. I'll recalculate later on.

[Mhykke]

Thoughts On Madstone Boots On A Paladin?, No Divine Favor But Gains Melee Alacrity +2Str And +4Con, *Chance Of Double*

Generally not good.

Divine favor nets you +3 attack and damage, boots only +1 attack and damage from str and the melee alacrity doesn't stack w/ haste. The hit points are a nice bonus, but I don't know if I'd trade it off for the lowered dps.

The boots' rage lasts for 2 minutes, locking you out from recasting divine favor, so you'd be losing +2 attack and damage for a minute. Plus, if you're wearing the boots, there's the chance you'd trigger the on hit effect, locking you out from DF even longer.

Now, you can take extend to make DF last 2 minutes, and just use the clicky of madstone and swap in another set of boots after using the clicky, but this would use up a feat just for a 2 min. clicky.