Weekly Developer Activities - 5/19/08 [Archive] - Dungeons & Dragons Online Forums

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Quarion

05-19-2008, 11:09 AM

Weekly Development Activities
The following are items which are in development or QA testing for release in Module 7.

The marketplace tent is gone, destroyed in a hail of fiendish magic that left a crater in its wake. While the devils of Shavarath have been pushed back to their home plane, remnants of their army remain. Amidst the chaos of the invasion, monks have arrived to turn the tide.

General

Monks have been added to the game as a new playable class!
NEW Class trainers will now teach characters of any level, and will warn you if you are about to multi-class. When multi-classing, they will warn you if your ability scores are too low to cast all spells that class receives.
NEW Two new raids have been added to the game! The forces of the devils Shavarath stand before the assembled guilds of Stormreach! Guilds must battle raid bosses from Velah to the The Pit Fiend to collect the keys needed to win the race to unlock the raid for the entire server. Take the battle to Suulomades, a General of the armies that attacked the city during the invasion. Battle Xy’zzy, the Hound of Xoriat, and crush the invaders once and for all!
NEW Players can now create their own chat channels!
NEW 3 New Monsters! Horned devil, sahuagin, living spells.UI Improvements

A confirmation dialog has been added to the Default button in the Options UI.
There are now 20 shortcut bars available, for those who carry too many clickies/weapons/spells to fit on 10. Those of you who had previously used the unsupported methods of accessing bars 11-20 will be happy to know that they now will remember where you put them on the screen.
When examined, some scrolls did not display their level 16 UMD class requirement. This has been fixed.
Quest portal info screen text has changed. It now shows the quest difficulty along with the level.
A new click and hold to attack option has been added to the game and is defaulted to on.
The Finished button in the quest objectives panel will no longer be grayed out if the player is resurrected after quest completion.
If your shopping cart is empty, the buy/sell/repair button will be grayed out to prevent confusion.
Floaty damage numbers now spread out further -- this should make it easier for people who hit a monster several times at once to see the damage (rangers with many shot, for example).
There are now key bindings for switching to shortcut bars 11-20, and for shortcuts 51-100.
The G15 keyboard display now shows a Ki bar for monks.
A confirmation dialog will now appear if you close a vendor UI with items still in a shopping cart.
The Quest Portal UI will now display a warning if you do not have the selected quest bestowed, or if you are on the wrong chapter/goal.
NEW The fellow select keys will no longer toggle selection by default. You can turn this behavior back on if preferred in the Options (Game play tab).
NEW Maps will now display active quest entrances and quest-givers, allowing players to see available quests that they are eligible to undertake.Spells
General Spell Changes

The turn-you-to-stone effects used by elder earth elementals and stone scorpions are now named "Petrify" so as not to confuse warforged who are immune to "flesh to stone", but not to these effects.
When you summon a monster into your own persistent AOE (cloudkill, blade barrier, wall of fire, etc), it will no longer take damage on arriving in the world.
Sound Burst has had its spell description changed to reflect the fact that the stun effect can be resisted using Spell resistance.
Some spells which had been able to affect foes through doors and force fields now do a better job of checking line of sight.Skills, Feats, & Abilities
General Feat Changes

Insightful Reflexes and Force of Personality feats previously required that you logout and login to take effect; now they take effect immediately.
The fascinate feat for bards now has a will saving throw. The DC is the bard's perform skill plus a d20.
Barbarian/Rogue multi-class characters will now get a uses per day of uncanny dodge and improved uncanny dodge based on the sum of their rogue and barbarian levels.
Shield Mastery, Improved Shield Mastery, and Dwarven Shield Mastery now only apply when blocking with a shield. Two weapon blocking has been updated to give +2DR when blocking, only when using two weapons.
Wizards now receive Simple Weapon Proficiency: Unarmed, as no classes should receive a non-proficiency penalty with natural weapons.
Paladin Smite Evil uses now regenerate at a rate of 1 every 90 seconds.
Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate now have a 6 second cool down instead of 10 seconds.
NEW Rogues who were level 10+ before Mod 6 should now be able to respec crippling strike and improved evasion. They will receive free respec tokens for each feat that is "fixed" so they may respec them.
NEW Feats and effects which give a bonus to save "versus spells", for example the dwarven racial feat, now work on feeblemind.
NEW Stealthy two weapon fighters with the Two Weapon Fighting feat should now make attacks with each hand when stealth. New Feats
The following general changes have been made to existing enhancements:
The costs of Halfling Cunning I - III and Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I - III have been reduced to 1 action point per level.
The bonus granted by Rogue Sneak Attack Training has been increased to 3 points of sneak attack damage per level.
Rogue Way of the Assassin I now grants a passive +4 bonus to sneak attack damage in addition to its other effects.
The effect of Paladin Divine Righteousness I, Rogue Way of the Assassin I active abilities, and Rogue Way of the Thief-Acrobat I "show time" now lasts 60 seconds instead of 20 seconds.
Barbarian and Rogue Trap Sense enhancements now grant a +2 bonus to saves vs. traps per level instead of +1.
Paladin Bulwark of Good and Resistance of Good costs reduced to 1 point per level
Paladin Focus of Good now grants +3, +6, or +9 to Concentration checks.
Paladin Courage of Good now grants +2, +4, or +6 to Fear saves.
The following iconic monk feats have been added to the game:
Purity of Body – You are immune to all forms of disease, including magical or supernatural diseases.
Wholeness of Body – Permits a monk to regain health over time.
Diamond Body – You have mastered your metabolism, and are immune to poison.
Timeless Body – Your body and soul are your own, and you do not create spawn effects should you fall in combat with the undead. NOTE: This is a level 17 feat, available to level 17 Monks and higher.
Still Mind and Fast Movement for the monk have been added to the game. Enhancements
New Enhancements
Halfling Cunning IV:
Cost: 4 Action Points
Prereqs: Level 14 Halfling, Halfling Cunning III, 48 action points spent.
Benefit: You gain an additional +1 bonus to attack rolls when flanking an enemy, bringing the total increase to 4.
Halfling Guile I:
Cost: 1 Action Point
Prereqs: Level 3 Halfling, Halfling Cunning I, 7 action points spent.
Benefit: You gain +2 to your sneak attack damage and +1 to bluff.
Halfling Guile II:
Cost: 2 Action Points
Prereqs: Level 7 Halfling, Halfling Cunning II, Halfling Guile I, 22 action points spent.
Benefit: You gain an additional +2 to your sneak attack damage, bringing the total increase to 4, and an additional +1 to bluff, bringing the total increase to 2.
Halfling Guile III:
Cost: 3 Action Points
Prereqs: Level 11 Halfling, Halfling Cunning III, Halfling Guile II, 37 action points spent.
Benefit: You gain an additional +2 to your sneak attack damage, bringing the total increase to 6, and an additional +1 to bluff, bringing the total increase to 3.
Halfling Guile IV:
Cost: 4 Action Points
Prereqs: Level 15 Halfling, Halfling Cunning IV, Halfling Guile III, 52 action points spent.
Benefit: You gain an additional +2 to your sneak attack damage, bringing the total increase to 8, and an additional +1 to bluff, bringing the total increase to 4.
Paladin Bulwark of Good IV:
Cost: 4 Action Points
Prereqs: Level 15 Paladin, Paladin Bulwark of Good III, 52 action points spent.
Benefit: Your aura of good provides an additional +4 Armor Class bonus.
Paladin Divine Sacrifice I:
Prereqs: Paladin level 5, Paladin Extra Smiting II, 15 Action Points spent
Cost: 1 Action Point
Benefit: Giving up some of your life force to win the battle, you empower your next blow against your foe. This attack deals an additional 5d6 Good damage to evil opponents and increases the critical multiplier of your weapon by 1, but costs you 10 hp and 1 sp, whether or not the attack is successful. (3 second cool down)
Paladin Divine Sacrifice II:
Prereqs: Paladin level 12, Paladin Divine Sacrifice I, Paladin Extra Smiting III, 42 Action Points spent
Cost: 2 Action Points
Benefit: Giving up some of your life force to win the battle, you empower your next blow against your foe. This attack deals an additional 7d6 Good damage to evil opponents and increases the critical multiplier of your weapon by 1, but costs you 10 hp and 1 sp, whether or not the attack is successful.
Paladin Divine Sacrifice III: (Not yet available)
Prereqs: Paladin level 19, Paladin Divine Sacrifice II, Paladin Extra Smiting IV, 69 Action Points spent
Cost: 3 Action Points
Benefit: Giving up some of your life force to win the battle, you empower your next blow against your foe. This attack deals an additional 9d6 Good damage to evil opponents and increases the critical multiplier of your weapon by 1, but costs you 10 hp and 1 sp, whether or not the attack is successful.
Paladin Exalted Smite I:
Cost: 1 Action Point
Prereqs: Level 6 Paladin, Paladin Extra Smiting II, 19 Action Points Spent
Benefit: Using this attack, you call on the paladin's ability to strike down evil creatures, gaining twice your Charisma bonus to your attack roll, a damage bonus based on your paladin level, and +1 to your weapon's critical damage multiplier. (5 second cool-down, uses smites per day, replaces Smite Evil.)
Paladin Exalted Smite II:
Cost: 2 Action Points
Prereqs: Level 10 Paladin, Paladin Exalted Smite I, Paladin Extra Smite III, 34 Action Points Spent
Benefit: Using this attack, you call on the paladin's ability to strike down evil creatures, gaining twice your Charisma bonus to your attack roll, a damage bonus based on your paladin level, and +1 to your weapon's critical threat range and damage multiplier. (Cool down drops to 4 seconds.)
Paladin Exalted Smite III:
Cost: 3 Action Points
Prereqs: Level 14 Paladin, Paladin Exalted Smite II, Paladin Extra Smite IV, 49 Action Points Spent
Benefit: Using this attack, you call on the paladin's ability to strike down evil creatures, gaining twice your Charisma bonus to your attack roll, a damage bonus based on your paladin level, and +1 to your weapon's critical threat range and +2 to your weapon's critical damage multiplier. (Cooldown drops to 3 seconds.)
Paladin Exalted Smite IV: (Not yet available)
Cost: 4 Action Points
Prereqs: Level 18 Paladin, Paladin Exalted Smite III, Paladin Extra Smite IV, 64 Action Points Spent
Benefit: Using this attack, you call on the paladin's ability to strike down evil creatures, gaining twice your Charisma bonus to your attack roll, a damage bonus based on your paladin level, and +2 to your weapon's critical threat range and damage multiplier. (Cooldown drops to 2 seconds.)
Paladin Redemption I
Cost: 4 Action Points
Prereqs: Level 9 Paladin, Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I, 28 Action Points Spent, Any one of: Paladin Devotion II, Paladin Heal II
Benefit: You can activate this ability and expend one use of Lay on Hands to raise the dead, returning your target to life at 10% health. (30 second cooldown.)
Paladin Redemption II
Cost: 2 Action Points
Prereqs: Level 14 Paladin, Paladin Extra Lay on Hands II, Paladin Redemption I, 50 Action Points Spent, Any one of: Paladin Devotion III, Paladin Heal III
Benefit: You can activate this ability and expend one use of Lay on Hands to resurrect the dead, returning your target to life at 50% health.
Paladin Redemption III (Not yet available)
Cost: 2 Action Points
Prereqs: Level 19 Paladin, Paladin Extra Lay on Hands III, Paladin Redemption II, 70 Action Points Spent, Any one of: Paladin Devotion IV, Paladin Heal IV
Benefit: You can activate this ability and expend one use of Lay on Hands to true resurrect the dead, returning your target to life at 100% health.
Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy IV:
Cost: 4 Action Points
Prereqs: Level 14 Rogue, Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy III, 48 action points spent.
Benefit: You gain an additional +1 bonus to hit with your sneak attacks.
Rogue Wrack Construct I
Prereqs: Rogue level 3, Rogue Disable Device I, 7 Action Points Spent
Cost: 1 Action Point
Benefit: You can activate this ability to use your understanding of mechanical objects and their vulnerabilities to strike at critical points in a construct's anatomy, dealing an extra 1d6 damage to constructs or living constructs. In addition, the target must make a Reflex save, DC 10 + Half Rogue Level + Intelligence Modifier or suffer a 10% reduction in their resistance to Critical Hits for a short period of time. (6 second cooldown.)
Rogue Wrack Construct II
Prereqs: Rogue level 7, Rogue Disable Device II, Rogue Wrack Construct I, 22 Action Points Spent
Cost: 2 Action Points
Benefit: You can activate this ability to use your understanding of mechanical objects and their vulnerabilities to strike at critical points in a construct's anatomy, dealing an extra 3d6 damage to constructs or living constructs. In addition, the target must make a Reflex save, DC 10 + Half Rogue Level + Intelligence Modifier or suffer a 20% reduction in their resistance to Critical Hits for a short period of time.
Rogue Wrack Construct III
Prereqs: Rogue level 11, Rogue Wrack Construct II, 37 Action Points Spent, Any one of: Rogue Disable Device III, Rogue Way of the Mechanic I
Cost: 3 Action Points
Benefit: You can activate this ability to use your understanding of mechanical objects and their vulnerabilities to strike at critical points in a construct's anatomy, dealing an extra 5d6 damage to constructs or living constructs. In addition, the target must make a Reflex save, DC 10 + Half Rogue Level + Intelligence Modifier or suffer a 30% reduction in their resistance to Critical Hits for a short period of time.
Rogue Way of the Assassin II:
Cost: 2 Action Points
Prereqs: Rogue Level 12, Rogue Way of the Assassin I, Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy III, Rogue Sneak Attack Training III, 42 Action Points Spent
Benefit: Grants an additional +2 bonus to damage on critical hits (before multipliers), +2 bonus to Bluff, Hide, and Move Silently skills and a +1 bonus to Fortitude saves against poison. Also grants the ability to make devastating melee attacks that can kill a living target instantly on a successful sneak attack made from stealth if the target fails a Fortitude save, DC 10 + Rogue Level + Int Modifier. (15 second cool-down, can only be performed while stealth and when sneak attacking.)
Rogue Way of the Mechanic II:
Cost: 2 Action Points
Prereqs: Rogue Level 12, Rogue Way of the Mechanic I, Rogue Disable Device III, Rogue Improved Trap Sense II, Rogue Open Lock III, 42 Action Points Spent
Benefit: Grants an additional +2 bonus to Disable Device, Open Lock, Repair, Search, and Spot skills. Also grants an additional +4 to saves against traps and 2 points of additional resistance against all elements.
Rogue Way of the Thief Acrobat II:
Cost: 2 Action Points
Prereqs: Rogue Level 12, Rogue Way of the Thief Acrobat I, Rogue Dexterity III, 42 Action Points Spent
Benefit: Grants an additional +2 bonus to Balance, Jump, and Tumble skills, increases your movement rate by 10%, and 2 extra uses per rest of Uncanny Dodge. Also grants a greater increase to attack speed with staves and complete immunity to knockdown effects and slippery surfaces. General Enhancement Changes
Changes to Existing Enhancements:
The following general changes have been made to existing enhancements:
The costs of Halfling Cunning I - III and Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I - III have been reduced to 1 action point per level.
The bonus granted by Rogue Sneak Attack Training has been increased to 3 points of sneak attack damage per level.
The effect of Paladin Divine Righteousness I, Rogue Way of the Assassin I active abilities, and Rogue Way of the Thief-Acrobat I "show time" now lasts 60 seconds instead of 20 seconds.
Barbarian and Rogue Trap Sense enhancements now grant a +2 bonus to saves vs. traps per level instead of +1.
Paladin Bulwark of Good and Resistance of Good costs reduced to 1 point per level
Paladin Focus of Good now grants +3, +6, or +9 to Concentration checks.
Paladin Courage of Good now grants +2, +4, or +6 to Fear saves.
Paladin Extra Smite Evil I - IV each now increase your maximum number of Smites by 1Items

Bursting weapons now continue to increase their damage if they "burst" on an attack that has greater than a x4 damage multiplier.
Several new chain shirt appearances have been added to the treasure tables.
Gem and collectible bags now have an "auto-gather" feature that can be turned on. Whenever the player picks up a collectible or gem, it will go into a collectible or gem bag if there is room, when enabled. Auto-gathering prefers bags that already have a stack of the picked up item over bags that do not have any.
Weapons conjured by the Holy Sword spell and arrows created by the Arcane Archer enhancement are no longer destroyed at the end of a dungeon. These items now persist until you have been logged out for half an hour or more.
Several new chain shirt appearances have been added to the treasure tables.
The names of some item effects have been changed to avoid confusion with similarly named enhancements. The effects themselves remain the same. "Improved Maximize I", "Improved Enlarge I", "Improved Extend I", "Improved Empower II", and "Improved Empower Healing I" have been renamed to "Spell Point Discount - Maximize I", "Spell Point Discount - Enlarge I", "Spell Point Discount - Extend I", "Spell Point Discount - Empower II", and "Spell Point Discount - Empower Healing I".
The following potions are now equipped with funnels so they can be used on afflicted friends: Potion of Fear Removal, Potion of Poison Neutralization, Potion of Blindness Removal, Potion of Curse Removal, Potion of Disease Removal, Woodblossom Mead, and Crimson Nightshade Infusion. The new funnels are especially easy to use so raging barbarians should have no problems with them.
A new item honoring Gary Gygax, has been added to the Delera's end reward list. "Voice of the Master" grants +5% XP to dungeon completion, and "Good Luck +1" to skill checks and saves.
All of the various energy absorption treasure effects used by the M6 raid loot (Fire Absorption - 10%, Negative Energy Absorption - 10%, etc.) have been fixed so that they absorb the proper amount of incoming damage.
Shields now can be randomly generated with a much wider range of enchantments.
Weapons conjured by the Holy Sword spell and arrows created by the Arcane Archer enhancement are no longer destroyed at the end of a dungeon. These items now persist until you have been logged out for half an hour or more.
The bartenders of Stormreach have become tired of watching the lucrative business of item repair going to other shopkeepers, and have enrolled in an item repair courses. Barkeeps will now be able to repair items.
New items have been added to the Catacombs and Waterworks end reward lists! These Eternal Wands are geared towards aiding low level clerics, sorcerers, and wizards.
Several quests have had item rewards added for the Monk.
The weapons created by a Paladin's Holy Sword spell now defeat byeshk, silver, and cold iron damage reductions.
Basic Quivers are now available from most ranged weapon vendors. Upgraded quivers are available from the House Deneith faction merchant.
All collectible and ingredient bags will now hold a maximum stack size of 1000 of each ingredient.
The icon for scrolls will now show the yellow ! overlay when the player can make a caster level check, to indicate that the player can use the scroll with a penalty, or that they might fail to use it, as opposed to the red X overlay that indicates that the player cannot use the scroll at all.
NEW Quivers, Ingredient Bags, and other bags of various types can now be repaired at most vendors.
NEW The Tolmerolask, Marraenoloth of the Shroud, for its own nefarious purposes, has expanded its item repair services to cover *any* damaged item. It now repairs as if it were an expert repair person (half normal chance to inflict permanent item wear on unbound items) but has increased its prices to compensate. It's rumored that its dark magics can repair broken candy canes and even tomes.Crafting

Energy cells in the shroud raid can now be charged by weapons with higher total plus equivalence. The medium cells can now be charged by weapons from +6 through +15, and high energy cells can be charged by weapons from +8 through +15.
Green steel raid loot accessories from the Shroud that have the old Existential Stalemate that had a +4 to Wisdom as one of the effects can now be upgraded at a Stone of Change. The +4 Wisdom effect will be increased to the current +6 Wisdom that new Existential Stalemate items now get.
The Twelve has discovered several new rituals that can be performed at the Stone of Change. As before, you must first bind and attune your item before performing an Eldritch Ritual. The new rituals and their recipes are as follows:
"Alchemical Armor Eldritch Ritual" - Grants armor a +1 alchemical bonus to AC.
Requires: Your armor, 5 Vials of Pure Water, and 15 Strings of Prayer Beads.
"Alchemical Shield Eldritch Ritual" - Grants your shield a +1 alchemical bonus to AC.
Requires: Your shield, 6 Silver Flame Hymnals, and 2 Tomes: Prophecies of Khyber.
"Force Damage Ritual" - Your weapon will do 1 point of force damage on each successful hit.
Requires: Your weapon, 3 Luminescent Dusts, and 9 Fragrant Drowshood mushrooms.
"Force Critical Ritual"- Your weapon will do 1d4 points of force damage on each successful critical hit.
Requires: Your weapon, 6 Sparkling Dusts, and 12 Deadly Feverblanch mushrooms.
"Resistance Ritual" - Your jewelry item will give you a +1 competance bonus to saves.
Requires: Your jewelry accessory, 4 Lightning-Split Soarwoods, and 22 Funerary Tokens. Monsters

Dispel magic no longer dispels ogre and troll rage.
A few wight priests will no longer cast cure spells on themselves.
If a teleporting monster gets himself into water, he will now properly teleport home and heal himself.
Previously, if you summoned a scorpion with "summon monster 2", enemy monsters might continue to attack it while it was burrowed. This should no longer happen (they might attack it as it is doing the burrowing animation, but won't chase it around while it is underground).
Previously, some Orcs would stand around doing nothing (most notably Orc Rangers). Now they should work.
Tieflings are now correctly immune to hold person and other spells that should not work on outsiders.
Two of the shroud lieutenants were not properly buffing their pals; their boss has smacked them around a bit, and now they will play better with others.
Intimidate now generates significantly greater threat against affected monsters when used.
Monsters will react more intelligently to being prevented from reaching their desired targets.
Charmed monsters should be less indecisive about picking out enemies. Likewise, your foes will less indecisive about who they focus aggression toward when a summoned or charmed monster is near them.
NEW When chasing retreating monsters, it should be significantly easier to successfully connect with attacks.Quests

The Black Abbot Raid
The mechanics of the Black Abbot Phasing Tile room have been adjusted. On Normal difficulty, 20% of the tiles will be down at any time. Hard difficulty is now set to the previous Normal (approximately 30%), and Elite is unchanged and is still set to the original "Normal" difficulty.
The Shroud
The agents of the twelve have been studying the shroud and report a shift in the 13th moon. They speculate the moon of death’s influence will wan in the northwest part of the valley.
Favor for the Shroud will now appear in your adventure compendium.
NEW Once the Pit Fiend is defeated in the final phase of the raid, portals will now appear allowing players to access the previous phases. This will allow them to craft and recover chests at their leisure.
Twilight Canyon
The way to the upper levels will now only open for players who speak to Paetus after he has been rescued.
Sands of Menechtarun
All zombies in the Menechtarun area now drop the special desert tokens instead of regular collectibles.
Orchard of the Macabre
A named rare blackbone skeleton in the Orchard of the Macabre now casts spells.
The Catacombs
Oozes and slimes have disappeared but, other vermin may lurk in the shadows.
Ambush at Sea
The crewmen can now be healed and will be easier to keep alive.
Delera's Tomb
NEW Several wraiths in part one of the Delera series are no longer bound to certain gates. Players can now turn them without fear of waiting.
NEW Set in a wooded alcove near Delera’s Tomb, a symbolic memorial site has been erected for visitors to pay homage to Dungeon Master Gary Gygax.
Tomb of the Blighted
NEW Vials of Blessed Water now remove the slow portion of blight rot in addition to the ability damage portion. Shopping

The potion vendor ogre in Gianthold now sells potions of Lesser Restoration.
The arcane scroll vendor for level 4 and 5 scrolls in House Jorasco no longer sells any level 3 scrolls.
Soul gems will now appear under the Ingredients category in the auction house.Other Changes

If you had unlocked the bonus character slot from 1750 favor, it would intermittently not show up. That should no longer happen.
Previously, some poison dart traps (in the Sunken Sewer, for example) would damage warforged (and others wearing poison immunity items) despite their poison immunity. This should no longer happen. Similarly, there were a few dart traps that did fire/sonic/cold/etc damage, which would bypass appropriate damage resistances. This should also no longer happen.
The save DC's on traps that scale with difficulty have been lowered on Hard and Elite. Elite trap save DC's are now roughly equivalent to what Hard trap save DC's were before this change. (For example, a trap that previously had a save DC of 30 on Elite will now be DC 22.) Spot, search, disable, and damage values remain unchanged.
It is now easier to see when standing in an incendiary cloud
Scrolls that were missing a level 16 UMD class requirement will now display correctly when examined.
Bidding on an item from the Bids page of the auction house that you have been outbid on will no longer result in an error message.
Players who perish in either the realm of Dolurrh in Desecrated Temple or in the fire rooms in Rainbow in Dark will no longer leave their soul stones behind when they teleport out.
AOE buff spells cast in tavern brawl pits will now hit yourself (but not anyone else, since everyone else in the pit is your enemy!)
When wielding a finesse weapon, the to-hit value in the Inventory panel will now correctly display using your Dex mod if your Dex mod is greater then you Str mod.
Previously, the DC listed for combat feat tooltips did not include bonuses from enhancements and feats. This was a visual glitch only; they were still being added to the actual DC in combat. This is now fixed.
The fire effect for a minotaur shaman staff no longer hangs in the air after it has been shattered with a cold spell.
The teleport bug in The Shadow Crypt where the camera detaches and is floating in water has been fixed.

Ritual Sacrifice: Killing Ramak Orenah before the objective to do so appears, will no longer result in a broken quest.
Sirroco will now cause blindness only on critical hits, as per the description.
A visual bug was fixed where the XP or SP graphic bars would be in the wrong position, if your XP or SP changed in both directions rapidly. For example, if you were damaged, at the same time you were healed, the bar would move the the wrong position, however, the XP value shown would have been correct. .
Previously, spell focus: transmutation was not working. Now it works.
It is no longer possible to break some quests by having a pet trigger a monster entry.
The black abbot goggle effect will no longer persist if the goggles are destroyed while you are wearing them.
Bidding on an item that you have been outbid on, from the bids page of the auction house no longer results in an error message.
The description for the "Improved Uncanny Dodge" feat has been corrected; it now states correctly that the feat gives +6 to reflex saves.
The Lesser, Improved, and Greater Regeneration raid loot effects have been fixed so you no longer have to re-equip the items after zoning to get the effect reapplied.
It is now easier to see when standing in an incindeary cloud.
Previously, some poison dart traps (in the Sunken Sewer, for example) would damage warforged (and others wearing poison immunity items) despite their poison immunity. This should no longer happen. Similarly, there were a few dart traps that did fire/sonic/cold/etc damage, which would bypass appropriate damage resistances. This should also no longer happen.
If you had unlocked the bonus character slot from 1750 favor, it would randomly not show up. That should no longer happen.
Ladders in the following dungeons have been fixed: Redfang, ShanToKor part 1 - The Kobold's Blockade, Stop Hazadill’s Shipment, Garrison’s Missing Pack, The Waterworks part 1, Waterworks part 2, Waterworks Adventure Zone, Delera's Part 1.
Players above the quest level limit for slayer, explorer, and rare encounter quests can now advance these quests to completion, but will be receive reduced XP (XP Gained = XP For Goal / (Levels Over Cap + 1)). Any other players present in the area who are not above the quest level limit will not have their quests advanced. No change has been made for groups of players who are all within the min-max level range for an area. The spammy text alerts warning players their quest is not advancing have been replaced with static informational alerts.
While in a live event area (the one that allows spell casting in public areas), you no longer take the death penalty and death wear.
Some areas of the game are a bit foggier because of the battles that have been occurring there.
A bug which prevented the player from purchasing items at a barkeep (and other vendors who do not repair) has been fixed.
Tasty Ham no longer makes potion sounds when it hits the ground.
Bestow Curse is now removed on rest.
Trap boxes, upon discovery, now emit a small stream of particles for a few seconds to aid rogues and their party in finding them.
Players will no longer be able to swim in mid-air outside of a pool in Vale of Twilight.
NEW The gloomy weather has passed from the city wards. Behold, the sun!
NEW The ladders in Waterworks Invaders have been fixed.
NEW Adjusted the position of a bridge in Cerulean Hills to remove a step up that was causing pets to be confused.
NEW When picking up large stacks of items (most notably hundreds of dragonshard fragments), players and parties should notice less lag.
NEW Previously, summoning a pet on top of a symbol spell could trigger the symbol. That should no longer happen.7.10

Aspenor

05-19-2008, 11:11 AM

Eladrin

05-19-2008, 11:15 AM

Please for the love of all that is sacred tell me that we don't HAVE to complete the Abbot to get flagged for these new raids....
There is no flagging mechanism for the new raids, once the area has been opened by the server.

WeaselKing

05-19-2008, 11:15 AM

The Return of the WDA!!

MrCow

05-19-2008, 11:15 AM

NEW 3 New Monsters! Horned devil, sahuagin, living spells.

I spy a use for ooze puppet. ;)

Darkwolf

05-19-2008, 11:16 AM

'Bout **** time!

Thanks, Q.

alans240

05-19-2008, 11:16 AM

Still no new spells:(

Vhlad

05-19-2008, 11:16 AM

There is no flagging mechanism for the new raids, once the area has been opened by the server.

Yes but for the server to open the area, does *someone* have to beat the abbot?

emsteiner

05-19-2008, 11:16 AM

nice

Aspenor

05-19-2008, 11:17 AM

There is no flagging mechanism for the new raids, once the area has been opened by the server.

Then tell me that we don't have to beat the Abbot to get a specific key.....:p

Some servers don't have the benefit of having guilds that complete this quest....most likely.

alans240

05-19-2008, 11:17 AM

There is no flagging mechanism for the new raids, once the area has been opened by the server.

But for the area to be open Abbott has to be beaten by someone???

Gol

05-19-2008, 11:18 AM

One thought crossed my mind when talking to Jerry during the Podcast.

Please for the love of all that is sacred tell me that we don't HAVE to complete the Abbot to get flagged for these new raids....
Heh, that would effectively make the new raids dead content upon release. At least we tried the Abbot for a month. This one won't even get attempted.

Gol

05-19-2008, 11:20 AM

But for the area to be open Abbott has to be beaten by someone???
Has to be beaten once per server after mod 7 is released as I read it, and by somebody that willingly uses the key to open the new raid.

Mhykke

05-19-2008, 11:20 AM

Then tell me that we don't have to beat the Abbot to get a specific key.....:p

Some servers don't have the benefit of having guilds that complete this quest....most likely.

I would hope the devs wouldn't be foolish enough to make the abbot raid any kind of prereq for opening up the new raid.

Ransacked

05-19-2008, 11:22 AM

Thanks for posting up a WDA.

I suppose there's no chance of a mention regarding an additional character slot?

Coldin

05-19-2008, 11:23 AM

We can create our own chat channels?

What kind of functionality will this have I wonder? Can we set up a chat channel to communicate with another guild? Or a chat channel to send a message to all of the people on our Friends List?

debo

05-19-2008, 11:23 AM

There is no flagging mechanism for the new raids, once the area has been opened by the server.

haha does that mean the server has to beat the abbot?

alans240

05-19-2008, 11:24 AM

Has to be beaten once per server after mod 7 is released as I read it, and by somebody that willingly uses the key to open the new raid.

Yep...that's the way I read it too and that's just crazy. Now we will have 2 raids no one runs. :mad:

Rekker

05-19-2008, 11:24 AM

Wow...I love the idea of the multi-boss raid...hate the fact that someone has to beat the Abbot to do it :(

Vorn

05-19-2008, 11:25 AM

There is no flagging mechanism for the new raids, once the area has been opened by the server.

To open the new raid, the server as a whole must defeat each raid 10,000 times*. Ready, set, go!!!
2 hours later...all done, except:

LFM the Shroud
LFM the Shroud
LFM the Shroud
.
.
.
:p:):p

*made this number up.

Quarion

05-19-2008, 11:26 AM

The Abbot had decided that he's too busy trying to become a God, and has no time to give out keys. Players will not need to play that raid during the event. He's counting on the player's distraction.

alans240

05-19-2008, 11:27 AM

Mhykke

05-19-2008, 11:27 AM

moorewr

05-19-2008, 11:28 AM

There is no flagging mechanism for the new raids, once the area has been opened by the server.

The WDA says we have to fight the raid bosses, but it doesn't say whether we have to do so in the old raids.

Eladrin, two questions:

Does this mean the bosses will visit with us in new content?
Can I die or overreact now? Please?
EDIT: Q! You ruined my fun! Umm. thank you.

dragnmoon

05-19-2008, 11:28 AM

My Faith that we would get spells that should have been added last mod.. Has disappeared.

Vorn

05-19-2008, 11:28 AM

Vhlad

05-19-2008, 11:29 AM

ohhh.

Aspenor

05-19-2008, 11:29 AM

dragnmoon

05-19-2008, 11:31 AM

Thank you for clearing that up Q. Happy Monday.

Monday...and Happy do not go together.. :D;):p

alans240

05-19-2008, 11:31 AM

My Faith that we would get spells that should have been added last mod.. Has disappeared.

mine too...:(

Syrin

05-19-2008, 11:32 AM

Gol

05-19-2008, 11:34 AM

Borror0

05-19-2008, 11:35 AM

hehe, I just realised "Tolmerolask"... xD

Laith

05-19-2008, 11:36 AM

while i would love to see spells, list of new greensteels, etc: i continue to be very happy with the number of "convienence" features that are being added.

keep it up!

and more low/no flagging raids? awesome! explaining all the different flagging processes is tiresome.

Laith

05-19-2008, 11:36 AM

hehe, I just realised "Tolmerolask"... xD
hehe, saw that too ;)

ThrasherGT

05-19-2008, 11:36 AM

Never mind.........

creithne

05-19-2008, 11:40 AM

My Faith that we would get spells that should have been added last mod.. Has disappeared.

Mine as well...oh well...at least we all get to enjoy our shiny new monks...:(

Borror0

05-19-2008, 11:42 AM

My Faith that we would get spells that should have been added last mod.. Has disappeared.

I was hoping for at least Mass Charm Monster.

Gratch

05-19-2008, 11:42 AM

I see this:

Tomb of the Blighted
* NEW Vials of Blessed Water now remove the slow portion of blight rot in addition to the ability damage portion.

But that doesn't really matter until I see
"Tomb of the Blighted

* Gelatinous Cubes are now killable so this quest can be completed"

I also don't see Eladrin's note on the fix to getting attack rolls on monsters that are running away as noted here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?&postid=1701638#post1701638). Edit: Cuz I'm blind. Thanks.

Plus either fix or add some cleric L8 spells.

Ed: Also... feel free to completely remove dragonshard fragments until you figure out why they cause so much lag as well as find a nonIngredient auction house location to place them.

thatguy

05-19-2008, 11:46 AM

Thank you very much for the news, communication is awesome.

Gol

05-19-2008, 11:46 AM

And here I was hoping you guys were just confident that the Abbot is finally doable.
Silly fanboi :p

Coldin

05-19-2008, 11:48 AM

I also don't see Eladrin's note on the fix to getting attack rolls on monsters that are running away as noted here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?&postid=1701638#post1701638).

NEW When chasing retreating monsters, it should be significantly easier to successfully connect with attacks.

It's under the monster section.

Samadhi

05-19-2008, 11:53 AM

Still no word on extra character slots so that we can create our new monks without deleting our characters we have invested time in?

Secondly it would be nice to get a heads up on what greensteal blanks are being added.

Yes we need an answer to this question ASAP - I need to find out whether I'm cancelling my account or not.

Angelus_dead

05-19-2008, 11:59 AM

I would hope the devs wouldn't be foolish enough to make the abbot raid any kind of prereq for opening up the new raid.
I hope the devs wouldn't be foolish enough to leave the Abbot raid in an obviously broken state for more than a week.

Honestly: requiring Abbot completion to access the new zone should not be a problem, because they should fix the Abbot raid to be reasonably completable. Fixing that raid is a higher priority than releasing module 7.

gpk

05-19-2008, 12:01 PM

My Faith that we would get spells that should have been added last mod.. Has disappeared.

I hear ya man.

Eladrin, can you just tell us if there are going to be any new spells? Specifically any new Spell Compendium Paladin Spells?

stockwizard5

05-19-2008, 12:03 PM

New Character Slot?

Of course on a happier note - after waiting out 3 Mods I can finally delete my capped pally if needed :(

mgoldb2

05-19-2008, 12:06 PM

Josh

05-19-2008, 12:10 PM

Angelus_dead

05-19-2008, 12:10 PM

NEW Two new raids have been added to the game! The forces of the devils Shavarath stand before the assembled guilds of Stormreach! Guilds must battle raid bosses from Velah to the The Pit Fiend to collect the keys needed to win the race to unlock the raid for the entire server. Take the battle to Suulomades, a General of the armies that attacked the city during the invasion. Battle Xy’zzy, the Hound of Xoriat, and crush the invaders once and for all!
Nice that the boss name is referenced in this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0105.html). That's the world's most popular game...

NEW Feats and effects which give a bonus to save "versus spells", for example the dwarven racial feat, now work on feeblemind.
No word of Favored Enemy- Undead Favored Resistance will start to give a bonus against special abilities of undead, such as Mummy Despair. And no mention of Mummy Rot being fixed to allow a fortitude save.

Darkwolf

05-19-2008, 12:10 PM

Yes we need an answer to this question ASAP - I need to find out whether I'm cancelling my account or not.
Better play it safe. Go ahead and cancel.

Buh-bye.

Josh

05-19-2008, 12:12 PM

I hear ya man.

Eladrin, can you just tell us if there are going to be any new spells? Specifically any new Spell Compendium Paladin Spells?

I believe that the concept of "Paladin Love" this module as promised is indeed a lie at worst, a gross overstatement at best. Truly, I am sad to relegate my paladin to being merely a mule / haggle bot.

Starrloom

05-19-2008, 12:15 PM

Since there is a WDA - can we assume we are not seeing this MOD anytime soon?

PhoenixFire31

05-19-2008, 12:17 PM

Since there is a WDA - can we assume we are not seeing this MOD anytime soon?

Not this week at least...

Which you should have guessed since Monk Week is next week...

Elsbet

05-19-2008, 12:23 PM

Thank God.......you guys almost stepped in it big time there.

Not yet, but I'm working on it.

...

alans240

05-19-2008, 12:25 PM

...

Thank you for that....it really made me laugh!! :D

Hambo

05-19-2008, 12:28 PM

Nice that the boss name is referenced in this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0105.html). That's the world's most popular game...

No word of Favored Enemy- Undead Favored Resistance will start to give a bonus against special abilities of undead, such as Mummy Despair. And no mention of Mummy Rot being fixed to allow a fortitude save.

If you're referring to "Xy'zzy", the term originated in the original "Colossal Caves" adventure that ran on Unix systems. The first time I played was in 1976 on a PDP-11 minicomputer. The word "xyzzy" was a magic word that was used at a certain location to transport you to another location.

ArkoHighStar

05-19-2008, 12:30 PM

Based on the article on ddo.com it looks like the flagging is a server wide mechanism which entails running the old raids (minus the abbott) each now drops a material component(either one per group or one per person), these are then handed in to the twelve wizards in the crater, the server that hands in all the components required gains access to the outdoor area and both raids. It was indicated that after a certain period the area would open up even if the server did not give in enough components.

This has 2 implications, basically they have turned it into a competition betwqeen servers to see who will get it open first, and second it extends the content by forcing us to do old content or wait it out before we get access to the new content. It willbe interesting to see how this plays out while at the same time having players trying out the monk class

moorewr

05-19-2008, 12:33 PM

http://www.ddo.com/article/969

Talon_Moonshadow

05-19-2008, 12:33 PM

ArkoHighStar

05-19-2008, 12:41 PM

Is anyone other then me starting to get the feeling that the new content for mod 7 will be

1 adventure area (that you can enter as a raid)
2 New raids
A few low level quests.

I could always be wrong but if I had to take a bet that where I place it at momment.

They never indicated there would be more than exactly this, people just did not want to believe that this is all we would get.At high level it will depend on what kind of raids we get, if at least one is TS like then the content will have a long life as people could spend months in there, if it is reaver like or shroud like it could fizzle after the grind becomes too much

2 new raids
1 high level raid adventure area
3 low level quests added to 3 barrel cove
3 barrel cove converted to low level adventure area island

Turial

05-19-2008, 12:42 PM

I hope the devs wouldn't be foolish enough to leave the Abbot raid in an obviously broken state for more than a week.

Honestly: requiring Abbot completion to access the new zone should not be a problem, because they should fix the Abbot raid to be reasonably completable. Fixing that raid is a higher priority than releasing module 7.

Bingo, AD hits it on the head.

Remember Devs, players want to do the abbot raid but in its current form it won't be happening.

Lorien_the_First_One

05-19-2008, 12:43 PM

There is no flagging mechanism for the new raids, once the area has been opened by the server.

Thank you!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh, and Thank you!!!!!!

And, Thank you again!!!!!!!

Angelus_dead

05-19-2008, 12:43 PM

And I thought I was finally going to get to do this quest..... /sigh. :(
Yeah. Right now the Abbot raid essentially doesn't exist as playable content. Fixing the Black Abbot would be equivalent to adding a whole new raid, and tying it into the zone unlocking process would be a good way to send some players back to give it another try.

But alas, it looks like once again they've shirked the responsibility to finish module 5 before releasing the next module.

Yuhjn

05-19-2008, 12:48 PM

If the only new high level content is 2 raids I'm going to be really sad and upset.

But I suspect that's what we're getting (2 new raids and a handful of lowbie dungeons)

I'm also really bummed about this abbot raid.... they're basically admitting the raid is unplayable, yet refusing to spend the 15 minutes it takes to fix it (by at least changing it back to the way it was before when it was playable).

Since I'm not really interested in Monk, M7 sounds like it's going to be pretty weak.

Well at least there are a bunch of new and interesting MMO's going on right now... if this mod sucks too much I'll just suspend my account and go play conan until Aug when M8 should come out.

creithne

05-19-2008, 12:55 PM

But alas, it looks like once again they've shirked the responsibility to finish module 5 before releasing the next module.

QFT!

Yaga_Nub

05-19-2008, 12:56 PM

Thank you for clearing that up Q. Happy Monday.

Monday...and Happy do not go together.. :D;):p

TELL ME WHY.... I don't like Mondays....

alans240

05-19-2008, 12:56 PM

debo

05-19-2008, 12:56 PM

MysticTheurge

05-19-2008, 12:59 PM

http://www.ddo.com/article/969

The last picture there looks nice, but the link points to the wrong one and I can't get a bigger version.

Also, "The Subterrane"? I'm not really loving that.

moorewr

05-19-2008, 01:03 PM

The last picture there looks nice, but the link points to the wrong one and I can't get a bigger version.

Also, "The Subterrane"? I'm not really loving that.

Heh. It bugs me every time I see it. It just looks like a typo. What does Baker call the caves on the way down to Khyber? Isn't there a term they could use here.. not "Underdark," but something like it?

moorewr

05-19-2008, 01:04 PM

Why don't you wait and see before you start jumping to conclusions. Two new raids... that is all I know so far...and so far I like that.

You mean.,. base my opinion on facts instead of innuendos?

That's crazy talk.

Angelus_dead

05-19-2008, 01:08 PM

Also, "The Subterrane"? I'm not really loving that.
I invoke the ancient rites and summon The Ritus Concilium!!

BurnerD

05-19-2008, 01:10 PM

How hard can it possibly be to change the hp value on the L8 Cleric spell Symbol of Death? PLEASE make the hp value appropriate for this game. 150Hp won't kill the fungus living under the toenail on the big toe of most of the monsters that clerics who can cast a L8 spell will face.

I see this:

But that doesn't really matter until I see
"Tomb of the Blighted

* Gelatinous Cubes are now killable so this quest can be completed"

I also don't see Eladrin's note on the fix to getting attack rolls on monsters that are running away as noted here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?&postid=1701638#post1701638). Edit: Cuz I'm blind. Thanks.

Plus either fix or add some cleric L8 spells.

Ed: Also... feel free to completely remove dragonshard fragments until you figure out why they cause so much lag as well as find a nonIngredient auction house location to place them.

BlackSteel

05-19-2008, 01:11 PM

Wouldnt it be funny if the components for opening the new raid area are unwanted raid loot? Screw new collectable items just for the occassion. Lets feed the demons our flamestrike gloves, titan docents, and large horns.

Angelus_dead

05-19-2008, 01:13 PM

The last picture there looks nice, but the link points to the wrong one and I can't get a bigger version.
http://ddoimages.level3.turbine.com/files/30/52/68/17/1387.jpg

Also
http://ddoimages.level3.turbine.com/files/50/11/45/04/1385.jpg
http://ddoimages.level3.turbine.com/files/35/73/68/83/1386.jpg

Eudimio

05-19-2008, 01:16 PM

The Abbot had decided that he's too busy trying to become a God, and has no time to give out keys. Players will not need to play that raid during the event. He's counting on the player's distraction.

So are the developers embarrassed about this yet?

Why do you continue to let your pride dictate your actions?

Please allow the "Brute Force" method to once again become a viable strategy to beat this raid.

You don't have the expertise to make the "puzzles" an acceptable challenge.

moorewr

05-19-2008, 01:18 PM

I invoke the ancient rites and summon The Ritus Concilium!!

WoW, just WoW. It's like a mass of typos. :)

hey, speaking of which their next module is "Wraith of the Lich King." I wonder if he's trying to become a god? Maybe they can ask Turbine for pointers...

Ghoste

05-19-2008, 01:20 PM

Very happy about the new chat channels thing. If I understand this correctly, we'll be able to set up a channel, have guildies join it, and it will effectively work like a guild alliance channel.

Ransacked

05-19-2008, 01:21 PM

http://img373.imageshack.us/img373/1001/ddoye3.jpg

moorewr

05-19-2008, 01:21 PM

/join #hottub

Dexxaan

05-19-2008, 01:21 PM

Talon_Moonshadow

05-19-2008, 01:57 PM

I'd like to see one of the keys be in Devil Assault (Elite).

moorewr

05-19-2008, 01:58 PM

I'd like to see one of the keys be in Devil Assault (Elite).

Hmmm! Good idea.. That quest is supposed to be temporary (like Invaders?), but that's OK... it only needs to outlast the unlocking of the raid...

Twerpp

05-19-2008, 02:05 PM

Beat every raid again to unlock the new raid? I love it!

No worries they are making some changes to the Abbott to make it more playable...

Ghoste

05-19-2008, 02:13 PM

# NEW Two new raids have been added to the game! The forces of the devils Shavarath stand before the assembled guilds of Stormreach! Guilds must battle raid bosses from Velah to the The Pit Fiend to collect the keys needed to win the race to unlock the raid for the entire server. Take the battle to Suulomades, a General of the armies that attacked the city during the invasion. Battle Xy’zzy, the Hound of Xoriat, and crush the invaders once and for all!
Raids have to be done by guilds only?

Guess you can count smaller guilds like mine out. We PuG all the raids we do.

PhoenixFire31

05-19-2008, 02:20 PM

Raids have to be done by guilds only?

Guess you can count smaller guilds like mine out. We PuG all the raids we do.

I think you are reading too much into that...:rolleyes:

Gratch

05-19-2008, 02:23 PM

The Abbot had decided that he's too busy trying to become a God, and has no time to give out keys. Players will not need to play that raid during the event. He's counting on the player's distraction.

Hmmm... I'm backtracking on my first opinion. Having done all the raids (except the Abbot) in one day before without really trying... I almost wish they'd add in some challenge - either:
1) only drop keys on elite
and/or
2) give a key to the Abbot (on any difficulty), but once all keys but the last have been used - start a 3-day timer on the door. Then we have 3 days of guilds actually trying to complete the Abbot. Or those that already can complete it get a deserving recognition.

Speaking of which... what is the recognition for the guild member (and his guild) that unlocks the new raid?

Probably too much additional work on a Mod we want to play now now now... just my thoughts. BTW, I like making entry into the raid a competitive server-wide contest...

Ghoste

05-19-2008, 02:23 PM

I think you are reading too much into that...:rolleyes:
I really hope so.

It would be nice if we could trust that the Devs were choosing their words for accuracy as well as dramatic effect. In this case, I hope you are right and that there is more dramatic effect and less accuracy.

Freeman

05-19-2008, 02:23 PM

Raids have to be done by guilds only?

Guess you can count smaller guilds like mine out. We PuG all the raids we do.

I don't think being in a guild really has anything to do with it, other than that the larger ones are more likely to be the ones to unlock the raid for their server. They simply have more resources they can pool together while gathering the components. It won't change the way the raids work currently, other than possibly a "Must contribute components to the guild" restriction, which is reasonable.

oogly54

05-19-2008, 02:24 PM

The question I have is, are the collectables from the raids, whcih unlock the new raid, bound? Meaning at least one person has to complete all the raids in order to unlock the new raid for the server or can we have 5 different groups defeat five different raids and meet up to unlock the new raid? It really changes how you will prepare for the new raid. Is there some kind of cool bonus for unlocking the new raid in this manner? Are all the prereqs for the old raids eliminated by doing this? That would be cool. i would actually start running the queen and dragon again.

GeneralDiomedes

05-19-2008, 02:29 PM

NEW The gloomy weather has passed from the city wards. Behold, the sun!

I hope that the day/night cycle continues to exist. The starry sky is beautiful, and some of the houses (P) have a wonderful 'garden of earthly delights' look to them at night.

Also, why couldn't the day cycle randomly choose between various weather effects?

This would be some nice 'little stuff' for people to appreciate.

Ghoste

05-19-2008, 02:30 PM

I don't think being in a guild really has anything to do with it, other than that the larger ones are more likely to be the ones to unlock the raid for their server. They simply have more resources they can pool together while gathering the components. It won't change the way the raids work currently, other than possibly a "Must contribute components to the guild" restriction, which is reasonable.
Like I said, let's hope so.

GeneralDiomedes

05-19-2008, 02:33 PM

I really hope so.

It would be nice if we could trust that the Devs were choosing their words for accuracy as well as dramatic effect. In this case, I hope you are right and that there is more dramatic effect and less accuracy.

Lets see how it sounds.

"The forces of the devils Shavarath stand before the assembled PUGs of Stormreach!"

naaahhh

LA_MIKE

05-19-2008, 02:48 PM

NEW Players can now create their own chat channels!

Maybe my channel will have my friends on all servers able to connect.

moorewr

05-19-2008, 02:49 PM

I hope that the day/night cycle continues to exist. The starry sky is beautiful, and some of the houses (P) have a wonderful 'garden of earthly delights' look to them at night.

Also, why couldn't the day cycle randomly choose between various weather effects?

This would be some nice 'little stuff' for people to appreciate.

Yes, please! cycle day and night skies in Stormreach.

Talon_Moonshadow

05-19-2008, 02:55 PM

Lets see how it sounds.

"The forces of the devils Shavarath stand before the assembled PUGs of Stormreach!"

naaahhh

LOL!

Ahhmmm.....I'm still hoping it doesn't require an all guild raid. Mine's got only 2 on Thelanis, and three below lvl 9 on Argo. Won't be completing many raids with only my guildies. Heck, the other guy on Thelanis isn't even on the same side of the world as me. Hard to even play at the same time.

Gordo

05-19-2008, 03:25 PM

Tolmerolask? Marraenoloth?

Are those who posted about this talking about making Tolero's name from the words?

Borror0

05-19-2008, 03:30 PM

Tolmerolask? Marraenoloth?

Are those who posted about this talking about making Tolero's name from the words?

Tolmerolask makes Tolero and Merlask. I don't get the other oen though, if there is anythnig to see...

ccheath776

05-19-2008, 03:32 PM

So one raid we cant get to until it is unlocked by someone who completes all of the raids in the game.Mmmkay
Nothing on the other raid other than an insinuation of a maze.

GlassCannon

05-19-2008, 03:33 PM

... and you folks at Turbine had to do such an awesome job that I couldn't just let my account expire. See you in 2 weeks!

I'm having quite a time keeping up with my little bro... home from the NAVY for said 2 weeks ;)

GlassCannon

05-19-2008, 03:35 PM

Raids have to be done by guilds only?

Guess you can count smaller guilds like mine out. We PuG all the raids we do.

I PuG 90% of my raids as well...

moorewr

05-19-2008, 03:41 PM

Tolmerolask makes Tolero and Merlask. I don't get the other oen though, if there is anythnig to see...

He's the weird skeletal vendor by the 3rd altar in the Shroud.

GeneralDiomedes

05-19-2008, 04:18 PM

Yes, please! cycle day and night skies in Stormreach.

I also think that some unpredictable weather would have some RP potential as well.

Turial

05-19-2008, 04:26 PM

I also think that some unpredictable weather would have some RP potential as well.

I can just see it now..."Why is it raining hams?" or better yet "why is it raining kobolds?"

Gratch

05-19-2008, 04:31 PM

Aesop

05-19-2008, 04:37 PM

what they meant to say is that the keys will only drop when an all Monk group completes a Raid ...on Normal Hard and Elite.

The Raids for this are

VoN
Titan
DQ
and Reaver

the Shroud dun count for this and neither does the Abbot... Costello is out as well

and you need 12 Keys... 4 raids 3 settings ... see that 12... see that ... and this is Way of the Monk... so First All monk groups will be the only ones that count

Aesop

maddmatt70

05-19-2008, 04:55 PM

I could easily see the "first to unlock the new raid" turning from a "GUILD" specific to server specific contest. There are definitely some larger and better equipped guilds out there... but given patches usually hit in the EST afternoon on a weekday... how many uberz are playing at that time? Enough to do 3 raids in parallel. Might be easier to multi-guild or PUG it out in the 2 hours it would take.

I think given the work they're doing to put in the keys and make it a "contest". Hopefully they have some prize (guild prize?) that possibly ties into future guild housing or recognition or party-helping gear (+1 stacking save aura item?). Then hopefully they run the Raid Keying Contest again with a different start time but similiar rewards (if any exist). Make it into a regular live event and add-in new raids as they come to the completion list.

[BTW, does the completion list this time include Tempest Spine?]

Well if it is just one guild complete all the raids - they are easily short mannable. You could probably beat all 5 raids (not counting tempest spine and the abbot) with under 20 people. They way I read it is more is when somebody completes the raid you get a collectible of sorts. You turn in this collectible to some central vendor. The whole server needs to hand in lets say 500 of each collectible (different collectibles for each raid) to unlock the raidzone which has the two new raids within it. It really has nothing to do with guilds, but rather mass acquiring of the collectibles.

binnsr

05-19-2008, 05:05 PM

Lets feed the demons our flamestrike gloves, titan docents, and large horns.

Don't you dare give my titanic docents to the demons! I have 2 characters who are collecting as many of those as they can fit in their backpacks! dr30/- and SR30 is a pretty nice effect.. unless you're a fleshling, I suppose :D

Boulderun

05-19-2008, 05:09 PM

The Abbot had decided that he's too busy trying to become a God, and has no time to give out keys. Players will not need to play that raid during the event. He's counting on the player's distraction.

Good call. Not as good as fixing it the right way 6 months ago would have been, but good none the less.

Nice name for the marraenoloth. Will she give me a boat ride for 2gp, too?

tower97

05-19-2008, 05:12 PM

Is there speculation on how many "keys" we are gonna need to open the new raid? Is it 1 per raid and if so that will be easy or is it gonna be a number ? Say 200-500? Just looking for an idea.....

Quanefel

05-19-2008, 05:18 PM

I am curious if Tempest Spine will be included in this since technically it IS a raid? Or is it not included?

Boulderun

05-19-2008, 05:23 PM

I am curious if Tempest Spine will be included in this since technically it IS a raid? Or is it not included?

I'm guessing it is not included. A) The release note started with Velah, when Tempest existed prior to that, but more importantly B) There is no lockout timer on Tempest, so they can't artificially inflate the collection time the way the others are.

MysticTheurge

05-19-2008, 05:28 PM

Heh. It bugs me every time I see it. It just looks like a typo. What does Baker call the caves on the way down to Khyber? Isn't there a term they could use here.. not "Underdark," but something like it?

It's all just called Khyber.

http://ddoimages.level3.turbine.com/files/30/52/68/17/1387.jpg

Nice new spider skin there.

Tolmerolask makes Tolero and Merlask. I don't get the other oen though, if there is anythnig to see...

Marraenoloth are Yugoloth from MMII:

http://wizards.com/dnd/images/mm2_gallery/88268_620_127.jpg
(The one in the middle)

In DDO, he's "that skeleton vendor in Shroud Part III."

Quanefel

05-19-2008, 05:33 PM

I'm guessing it is not included. A) The release note started with Velah, when Tempest existed prior to that, but more importantly B) There is no lockout timer on Tempest, so they can't artificially inflate the collection time the way the others are.

Unless they simply add a certian number of keys for the Raid group doing TS? Like say only 10-20% of the party will get a key for finishing it? Maybe less. This way we can get some of the lower level players involved since most are too low a level to get flagged for most of the other raids. Just an idea.

PhoenixFire31

05-19-2008, 05:33 PM

In DDO, he's "that skeleton vendor in Shroud Part III."

lol sounds like something you'd see in an end credit for a movie....Man with Hat, Cheerleader #1. ect...:D

Angelus_dead

05-19-2008, 05:40 PM

This way we can get some of the lower level players involved since most are too low a level to get flagged for most of the other raids. Just an idea.
1. I doubt there are many active DDO players who don't have high level characters.

2. Even if there were a lot of players with only low-level characters, why should Turbine care if they can get involved in unlocking a high level instance? It's not relevant to them, and they'd only get disappointed if they mistakenly work to open it and then find out it's too tough for them to enter.

Rilen

05-19-2008, 05:43 PM

I don't often have anything negative to say about DDO.

That being said .. I am definately not impressed by this:

(quote: http://www.ddo.com/article/969)

"Each ritualist requires large amounts of a special material component, as ancient rituals are costly to cast. You will be
tasked with venturing into the wilds of Xen’drik and finding these components to aid the Twelve’s efforts. The components
you need will only come from the most powerful of enemies, from Velah, the red dragon to Arraetrikos, as this ritual is meant
to dispel infernal magic from another plane. Once the ritualists have all the components they need, the barrier will be
destroyed and The Subterrane will be opened permanently."

( /endquote)

So, and I think this is a reasonable question, where is the Storyline Continuity? What I am reading is that Velah, DQ,
Titan, Reaver and Shroud will all need to be run/farmed for "keys" (components). I don't care about that specifically - we
run those quests into the ground weekly.

What does not sit well with me is that when these raids were released, particularly in the case of the Reaver, the storyline
was that Stormreach (or put another way, our "world") was at grave risk. MOD 7 introduces another supposed continuation
of the "world at risk" scenario.

Requiring us to run Velah, DQ, Titan and Reaver means there are multiple seperate risks/bosses facing the world .. all at the
same time? Cmmon, those were all independant story lines.

Maybe you can justify it for someone installing the game for the first time, the day Mod 7 comes out. Never seen a quest?
Never seen a raid in this game? Check it out, they're all linked .. you do them all to get to the last one we have currently.

For the rest of us who have been here since jump ..

Where is the storyline continuation of the Shroud in that? Please, someone from Turbine explain it.

How about for the rest of us that have been patiently waiting for new content .. and could only 1/2 care about
the monks showing up as a new class ..

I could see farming components from the Shroud .. I could see possibly even components from the Abbott as the Shroud
was linked to his failed ascendence .. but the other raids?

All I see is re-use of existing raid flagging quests and their associated raids as the "new pre-raid dungeons".

Where are the actual new 5-6 pre-raid quests?

Honestly, I am a huge supporter of this game and continue to stick with it - but please - this is weak.

PS - by all means, if it ends up that this is an over-reaction .. if there is more content than it appears at time
of release, I'll take that part of this post back. I just dont see the storylines mixing in any way that makes sense.

geoffhanna

05-19-2008, 05:46 PM

NEW Set in a wooded alcove near Delera’s Tomb, a symbolic memorial site has been erected for visitors to pay homage to Dungeon Master Gary Gygax.

Dexxaan

05-19-2008, 05:46 PM

Continuity although a nice feature is not a requirement IMO.

"If it´s continuity and storylines that link as a chain does you seek.....a bookstore I suggest you visit this week"

Laith

05-19-2008, 05:47 PM

MysticTheurge

05-19-2008, 05:57 PM

Requiring us to run Velah, DQ, Titan and Reaver means there are multiple seperate risks/bosses facing the world .. all at the same time? Cmmon, those were all independant story lines.

Are you sure they were? Look again.

Borror0

05-19-2008, 05:58 PM

Are you sure they were? Look again.

I cannot speak for the Titan and the DQ, as I've never looked into their storylines, but I can see it for the Stormreaver and Velah.

Rilen

05-19-2008, 05:59 PM

unless you're willing to tell me that you

1) play permadeath,
2) never mail items between your characters (because it is completely impossible for them to cross paths once they get to stormreach),
3) never repeat quests, and
4) never party with people that have quest knowledge (or use items unique to the quest you're in)...

...you really can't say anything about continuity in an MMO.
Actually, I can say whatever I like - as can you. Its an opinion - thats all.

As for continuity .. I dunno .. when I reference my Quest Journals and they say I defeated X boss, sure looks like storylines complete, or continue to another that does .. So .. I didnt invent the mechanism .. its part of DDO already. If the journal tells me I destroyed the Stormreaver or Velah or the Abbott .. I just dont see how the latest story line gets to resurrect the old ones without some change to the old ones.

I actually enjoy the backstory when new content is released .. and more to the point, I enjoy new content supporting the backstory. Thats my point - using old stuff to prop up the new is in my opinion weak.

Thats my .02 and I'll leave it at that. Wont be posting more on the topic but I would think I'm not the only player who feels this way.

Laith

05-19-2008, 06:01 PM

@ rilen: my apologies, i misunderstood your post, and completely rewrote my response. admittedly, i didn't read it all.

personally, the DDO storylines are really cool and all, but i'm not gonna pretend that we're not in a static world and that our actions have an effect on our environment... because they don't.

or you could use this:

It sounds like they're going to say that those events occurred and you got keys of power from all the bad guys in them and now they'll use them to face the devil invasion. It's a bit of retcon of the prior raids(they give keys or whatever to the new raid) but it may actually make it so theirs one story line running that they can continue to us.

lasra

05-19-2008, 06:03 PM

However, unbeknownst to the PUG's of Stormreach, a nefarious being of incalculable evil was lurking in the deepest pit of the Subterrane.

A warforged dracolich forged in Shavarrath, drawing its power from the Circle of Eternity.

Behold your nemesis.... Ti'Vel Laitrikobott the Absorber!

MWUAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Strykersz

05-19-2008, 06:04 PM

So, and I think this is a reasonable question, where is the Storyline Continuity? What I am reading is that Velah, DQ,
Titan, Reaver and Shroud will all need to be run/farmed for "keys" (components). I don't care about that specifically - we
run those quests into the ground weekly.

What does not sit well with me is that when these raids were released, particularly in the case of the Reaver, the storyline
was that Stormreach (or put another way, our "world") was at grave risk. MOD 7 introduces another supposed continuation
of the "world at risk" scenario.

Requiring us to run Velah, DQ, Titan and Reaver means there are multiple seperate risks/bosses facing the world .. all at the
same time? Cmmon, those were all independant story lines.

Actually, their is a little bit of storyline continuity here. There are currently two main story thread for the raids. In the first one, you defeat the Stormreaver in Tempest Spine and then he goes to Gianthold to build his doomsday device. Meanwhile, Velah breaks in to the Vault of Night to read a prophecy in the stones and you kill her. You then head to Gianthold, where her apprentice, Cydonie, tasks you with preventing the Stormreaver from activating his Doomsday device. Story #2 is the minions of the Black Abbot are working on completing the Litany of the Dead which reveals the path to godhood(or something like this, I don't remember all the details for this story line). As he is preparing to ascend, you break in and kill him. There is than a great disturbance in the force and the 12 send reports of a devil invasion in the Vale. You go to the vale, complete the five quests and discover some corrupted people and they then send you to prevent A from making the Vale coterminous with the Plane of Shavarath. I don't recall any connection between the Titan/DQ and either of those storylines.

It sounds like they're going to say that those events occurred and you got keys of power from all the bad guys in them and now they'll use them to face the devil invasion. It's a bit of retcon of the prior raids(they give keys or whatever to the new raid) but it may actually make it so theirs one story line running that they can continue to use.

fatherpirate

05-19-2008, 06:05 PM

Fantastic ! SUPER ! Excellent !

Now stick it on Risia so we can see whats wrong with it.

Angelus_dead

05-19-2008, 06:09 PM

Actually, their is a little bit of storyline continuity here. There are currently two main story thread for the raids. In the first one, you defeat the Stormreaver in Tempest Spine and then he goes to Gianthold to build his doomsday device.
That's a different guy, but he was intentionally imitating him, so it counts as a related story.

Story #2 is the minions of the Black Abbot are working on completing the Litany of the Dead which reveals the path to godhood(or something like this, I don't remember all the details for this story line). As he is preparing to ascend, you break in and kill him. There is than a great disturbance in the force and the 12 send reports of a devil invasion in the Vale.
Yes, there is a feeble "storyline" connection between the Abbot and Shroud raids, entirely contained within a single paragraph of dialog in the middle of unrelated questgiver chitchat.

That tiny piece of tacked-on continuity really serves only to underscore how wrong it was for Turbine to push ahead with other modules while leaving the Abbot unfixed. The large majority of characters who thrash Arraetrikos twice a week have never even come close to beating the Black Abbot, so it's laughable to talk as if the Shroud raid was dependent on beating the Abbot first.

Naash

05-19-2008, 06:32 PM

http://ddoimages.level3.turbine.com/files/30/52/68/17/1387.jpg

So noone is interested what those spiders are or what is behind the one in the center on the floor(dead?)?

Shadowblizmasta

05-19-2008, 06:55 PM

WoW, just WoW. It's like a mass of typos. :)

hey, speaking of which their next module is "Wraith of the Lich King." I wonder if he's trying to become a god? Maybe they can ask Turbine for pointers...

He basically IS a god. In the warcraft universe, he is the most powerful thing in existence.

Strakeln

05-19-2008, 07:01 PM

TolmerolaskDid that name come from Tolero/Merlask?

fatherpirate

05-19-2008, 07:01 PM

He basically IS a god. In the warcraft universe, he is the most powerful thing in existence.

I thought that Leroy Jenkins was :-/

BlackSteel

05-19-2008, 07:04 PM

I'm seeing alot of complaining over nothing.

If anyone played WoW when you had to unlock the new area for the first expansion that was a pain. Collect 100,000 of these rare drops, then 100,000 of these rare drops. Granted it was server wide, but faction specific. It was meant as a neat way to bring the community together in an effort to complete it first. (horde vs alliance, server vs server) You didnt have to participate if you didnt want to. Granted the turn in's did give level appropriate loot. Once the event was over, it was gone n done for, the npc's left, and everyone from then on was able to go to the new areas.

This looks alot like what the dev's are intending to do. But instead of asking us to go into some wilderness area and farm a beejesus amount of collectables. We get to collect them in quest material that we already run anyway. You can choose to run it a little more and put foward more of an effort towards unlocking the new material faster (and first if you're lucky), or you can choose to wait it out and let everyone do the work for you.

Personally I wouldve enjoyed a few extra quests as a flagging mechanism, but a preraid or two is not going to establish any sense of community among the servers.

(PS. hey devs, if you're reading this, how about adding in a quest reward for every set of collectables, dq/titan/velah/shroud turn in gets you a reward list at chest lvl 20 or something)

captain1z

05-19-2008, 07:15 PM

The Good: Another live event, more info on the new mod aside from "monks are here!!!", 2 new raids, 4 new creatures (1 is a new skin), quivers, crafting

The Bad: My characters will be capped going into the mod and will lose all benefits of 1st, 2nd, 3rd time xp bonus

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That said, Im really gunna work on 1750 so I can rebuild my main.

"Nothing" says Dungeons & Dragons like monster infested tunnels under the city does

We need a teleport option to meridia, because when I click join to get one of those covetted spots in shroud runs, Im not always in Meridia. Which means I need to either run to Meridia and then join, hoping a spot is still available or slash death, because you cant enter the vale when in a raid group and a group cannot be turned into a raid when a party member is in a quest or explorer area.

The issue of a teleporter to meridia is not an issue of technology and is starting to look more like to men in a staring contest...... each waiting for the other to blink first.

The new live event gives the community both focus and purpose..... I will be helping with Velah, Titan, Reaver and Shroud. I will also be attempting to flag for litany parts 1 and 2 and maybe even do my 1st queen run.

Helmet

05-19-2008, 07:16 PM

Muirtach

05-19-2008, 07:26 PM

....
So, and I think this is a reasonable question, where is the Storyline Continuity? What I am reading is that Velah, DQ,
Titan, Reaver and Shroud will all need to be run/farmed for "keys" (components). I don't care about that specifically - we
run those quests into the ground weekly.

The shroud actually combined all the previous raid storyline together. It was mentioned earlier how others have died together more directly, but in the Vale former warriors of the Demon Queen, from the restless isles and recruits of the Stormreaver's army are all being drawn together to the alignment of the moons. The Abbot's attempt at godhood has set what had been many cycles of Lamiat's dominance over the shroud out of whack. Sensing that Shavarath attempted to gain control of the Shroud and direct the dominance to their plane in an effort to gain control of Eberron. With the defeat of Shavarath in the Shroud they struck at Stormreach directly during the anniversary event. Since then the Twelve has been working to hold back future assaults.

Now it seems they will need objects of great power to turn the tide and let us start to strike back. Asking the warriors of Stormreach to pool their artifacts together for that power seems reasonable. You could even hypothesize that the things they need are objects that you have held as souvenirs as opposed to objects you need to retrieve. Obviously a bit of leniency for temporal issues which MMOs have.

MysticTheurge

05-19-2008, 07:58 PM

The Bad: My characters will be capped going into the mod and will lose all benefits of 1st, 2nd, 3rd time xp bonus.

It's been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that your quest counter for the purposes of XP loss does not increase while you're capped.

You lose out on the first-time bonus*, but you do not continue to get penalties for the 2nd, 3rd, etc. times that you do it.

Once the cap goes up, the first time you do the quest you will get full (but not first-time-bonus*) XP.

*Unless they've actually finally fixed that too and made it so that you get your first time bonus any time you've only repeated a quest 0 times.

Cowdenicus

05-19-2008, 09:10 PM

So no new spells, or enhancements for clerics (like improved metamagics).

Is there anything for me to look forward to with this mod, or should I take the summer off from the game?

Aesop

05-19-2008, 09:18 PM

So no new spells, or enhancements for clerics (like improved metamagics).

Is there anything for me to look forward to with this mod, or should I take the summer off from the game?

I'd say mess around with the mod before you make that decision Cow. Even though you might be disappointed that the stuff you'd been hoping for isn't here doesn't mean that the content is a waste... just different from what you really wanted.

sorta like getting a big mac when you wanted a double whopper... major difference ... but sometimes its ok

Aesop

captain1z

05-19-2008, 09:28 PM

It's been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that your quest counter for the purposes of XP loss does not increase while you're capped.

You lose out on the first-time bonus*, but you do not continue to get penalties for the 2nd, 3rd, etc. times that you do it.

Once the cap goes up, the first time you do the quest you will get full (but not first-time-bonus*) XP.

*Unless they've actually finally fixed that too and made it so that you get your first time bonus any time you've only repeated a quest 0 times.

Didnt know that. That changes things a bit................ lose the 1st timer but I can live with that. Thnx for the info.

Cowdenicus

05-19-2008, 09:48 PM

I'd say mess around with the mod before you make that decision Cow. Even though you might be disappointed that the stuff you'd been hoping for isn't here doesn't mean that the content is a waste... just different from what you really wanted.

sorta like getting a big mac when you wanted a double whopper... major difference ... but sometimes its ok

Aesop

oh i am keeping both accounts active through June tentatively. If I am supposed to do a little new content with no growth for my character for the next 5 months though, My net loss of taking a few months off well is really what? I might miss out on a +3 tome or something for a character or 2?

Anyways I just started playing a new game (no not AoC) where I get to be a pirate and sink ships, it is really alot of fun for me. Plus when I get bored in that game, I can go check out a digital Keira Knightley, nothing like that in DDO. ;)

ahpook

05-20-2008, 12:41 AM

They never indicated there would be more than exactly this, people just did not want to believe that this is all we would get.At high level it will depend on what kind of raids we get, if at least one is TS like then the content will have a long life as people could spend months in there, if it is reaver like or shroud like it could fizzle after the grind becomes too much

2 new raids
1 high level raid adventure area
3 low level quests added to 3 barrel cove
3 barrel cove converted to low level adventure area island

Wait, the adventure zone is a raid too???

If true, this will really suck for any of us who don't live and breathe raids. Oh well, I needed to get some stuff done this summer anyway.

dragnmoon

05-20-2008, 12:51 AM

I was never worried when people brought up wondering if there was any high level quests coming in this Mod, I always thought to myself, Turbine would not make that mistake knowng the majority of their gamers have high level characters..

Then I saw this

There is no flagging mechanism for the new raids, once the area has been opened by the server.

After this, is the first time I was worried. with 2 high level raids we were guarenteed quests, but with out the requirement of any kind of flagging (which is a first since tempest) that guarentee is out the window....

I realy hope I am wrong... and Turbine would not make that mistake..

10+ Months *I am including the wait until Mod 8* is way to long of a time period to have gotten only 5 high level quests *Mod 6 quests*

Auran82

05-20-2008, 01:21 AM

Wait, the adventure zone is a raid too???

If true, this will really suck for any of us who don't live and breathe raids. Oh well, I needed to get some stuff done this summer anyway.

I don't think the adventure zone is a raid as such, just that it allows a raid party to enter, seeing that most likely the entrance to the raid is through the zone.

MrCow

05-20-2008, 01:29 AM

Wait, the adventure zone is a raid too???

If true, this will really suck for any of us who don't live and breathe raids. Oh well, I needed to get some stuff done this summer anyway.

They probably designed the adventure area to allow 12 people through it so we don't have to go through the annoyance that was once passing through the restless isles as a non-raid group to get to Volcano's Mouth (for the Twilight Forge raid).

CDevil

05-20-2008, 05:56 AM

NEW The Tolmerolask, Marraenoloth of the Shroud, for its own nefarious purposes, has expanded its item repair services to cover *any* damaged item... It's rumored that its dark magics can repair broken candy canes and even tomes.

Forgive my confusion (I haven't been able to play for almost 7 months now, even though I've been keeping up with the forums), but how exactly do you "repair" a tome? To my knowledge tomes are either one-use items (can't repair what gets used up in one shot), collectibles (which don't take damage anyway), or items picked up to further a quest (and get dropped/destroyed when you leave).

Does this mean tomes are going to be converted to some kind of multi-use item, or is there a new kind of tome out there I haven't read about?

Auran82

05-20-2008, 06:10 AM

If you get hit with a critical, there is a chance that something you are wearing/holding/carrying will take damage, if a tome happens to be the thing that takes damage (if you happen to have looted one or are carrying one for some reason) at the moment you cannot repair it.

gpk

05-20-2008, 07:33 AM

Lorien_the_First_One

05-20-2008, 07:35 AM

BTW Why is Divine Sacrifice still listed as "5d6 Good damage to evil opponents"?
It should be untyped or divine type damage that hurst everything, not just evil mobs.

Why make an already bad implemention of a questionable spell even worse?

They are treating it as a holy effect, personally I think it would be nice if it were like a pure good effect, effective against any non-good chars. No pali should be killing anything good anyway :D

Thame

05-20-2008, 07:45 AM

gpk

05-20-2008, 07:51 AM

They are treating it as a holy effect, personally I think it would be nice if it were like a pure good effect, effective against any non-good chars. No pali should be killing anything good anyway :D

Well considering the implementation is painfully, absurdly close to the way it is in pnp (Spell Compendium), why deviate from it when it comes to something that might actually help the players who for whatever reason take Divine Sacrifice?
I see no mention anywhere of a damage type which to me implies untyped or divine (hence the name); this should hurt good creatures as well. But yes an acceptable form woud be Pure Good damage.

And yes it's not "right" having to kill good aligned creatures, but if I didn't I couldnt step into the Shroud (or the Ascension Chamber)!

Borror0

05-20-2008, 07:58 AM

And yes it's not "right" having to kill good aligned creatures, but if I didn't I couldnt step into the Shroud (or the Ascension Chamber)!

Let your party members kill it for you. As a paladin, that's what happens anyway, right?

gpk

05-20-2008, 07:58 AM

Let your party members kill it for you. As a paladin, that's what happens anyway, right?

LOL touché!

Yaga_Nub

05-20-2008, 08:07 AM

So no new spells, or enhancements for clerics (like improved metamagics).

Is there anything for me to look forward to with this mod, or should I take the summer off from the game?

Yes you should take the summer off Cow.

It's friggin' Summer! Go outside. Play some softball, football, baseball, golf, etc.

Be active. Enjoy the sun!

Plus it's more fun to see actual hotties in bikinis (or less) than look at them on the screen.

Lorien_the_First_One

05-20-2008, 08:32 AM

Well considering the implementation is painfully, absurdly close to the way it is in pnp (Spell Compendium), why deviate from it when it comes to something that might actually help the players who for whatever reason take Divine Sacrifice?
I see no mention anywhere of a damage type which to me implies untyped or divine (hence the name); this should hurt good creatures as well. But yes an acceptable form woud be Pure Good damage.

And yes it's not "right" having to kill good aligned creatures, but if I didn't I couldnt step into the Shroud (or the Ascension Chamber)!

You are correct. I guess the "don't work against good" thing is because right back to AD&D killing good creatures was a good way for a pali to find himself without his special abilities. But yes, this game does force us to kill a few good things. You can skip that one quest in house P if you want, but you do need to kill good in the Vale or you're out of luck :(

Oh well, I guess I shouldn't restrict palis, its not like alignment means anything in this game besides "what do you need umd to pick up".

Elsbet

05-20-2008, 11:00 AM

I understand the old saying you cant please everyone all the time and its true with this mod as well but come on.......now we completely isolate those who are not in guilds from having a chance at this.

Once the raid is opened, it's opened to everyone, if I read the description and comments correctly. Also, no where does it say ONLY guilds can turn in components. They're dropping from raid chests and somehow, I doubt the loot tables know if you're guilded or not.

ahpook

05-20-2008, 11:17 AM

They probably designed the adventure area to allow 12 people through it so we don't have to go through the annoyance that was once passing through the restless isles as a non-raid group to get to Volcano's Mouth (for the Twilight Forge raid).

While that has some nice benefits for the raid, if they have tuned the difficulty of the explorer area for larger parties, it would mean that there is no (announced) content for small high level parties. Each of the last mods has made raiding a bigger and bigger focus and this is not a trend that is encouraging for me.

MysticTheurge

05-20-2008, 11:51 AM

Wait, the adventure zone is a raid too???

If true, this will really suck for any of us who don't live and breathe raids. Oh well, I needed to get some stuff done this summer anyway.

Seriously? I'm looking forward to this the most.

An adventure zone I can take a raid group into sounds like tons of fun. (And it might actually be a challenge for my cleric to solo ;))

Borror0

05-20-2008, 11:53 AM

And it might actually be a challenge for my cleric to solo ;)

For as lnog as mobs will be dump enough to folow your cleric through your Blade Barriers... I doubt it.

MysticTheurge

05-20-2008, 11:55 AM

For as lnog as mobs will be dump enough to folow your cleric through your Blade Barriers... I doubt it.

I dunno. Too many of them at once can still muddle things up sometimes.

moorewr

05-20-2008, 11:56 AM

Seriously? I'm looking forward to this the most.

An adventure zone I can take a raid group into sounds like tons of fun. (And it might actually be a challenge for my cleric to solo ;))

They have got to get back to quests quests quests... heart and soul of this game. I'm glad to see more low level quests coming in.

Mod 6 felt so incomplete with just the flagging quests.. and all of them (except for devils) being such and undertaking time-wise. Where are the Foundation of Discord type quests?

Borror0

05-20-2008, 11:56 AM

I dunno. Too many of them at once can still muddle things up sometimes.

Comet fall?

MysticTheurge

05-20-2008, 11:58 AM

Comet fall?

But then they're not running through the barrier! ;)

Borror0

05-20-2008, 12:04 PM

But then they're not running through the barrier! ;)

Yeah but they'll have a bunch of blades passing through them all the time... that's supposed to hurt, right?:rolleyes:
(That's something they should fix once they'll have fixed the AI.)

ArkoHighStar

05-20-2008, 12:23 PM

They have got to get back to quests quests quests... heart and soul of this game. I'm glad to see more low level quests coming in.

Mod 6 felt so incomplete with just the flagging quests.. and all of them (except for devils) being such and undertaking time-wise. Where are the Foundation of Discord type quests?

Mod 4 is still the gold standard in that regard 3 large quests each with its own little area and 2 side quests for each area. Turbine seems to have abandoned the short type quests at high level, substituting them with the adventure area itself for people who want a quick adventure, the problem with that however is once you achieved the rare and explorer quests the slayer becomes a long grind with no xp for long periods of time.

moorewr

05-20-2008, 12:35 PM

Mod 4 is still the gold standard in that regard 3 large quests each with its own little area and 2 side quests for each area. Turbine seems to have abandoned the short type quests at high level, substituting them with the adventure area itself for people who want a quick adventure, the problem with that however is once you achieved the rare and explorer quests the slayer becomes a long grind with no xp for long periods of time.

Yes, Mod 4 is the gold standard in so many ways. I still enjoy POP on the rare occasion I go in there, whereas other flagging quests make me twitch after 1/10 the repetitions.

I'm sure their charts show 80% of the questing in a handful of high-profit required-for-flagging quests. And of course people are busy farming the explorer areas. Ugh. I do these things when I can't get a group or can't get excited about doing a quest.

The answer to me is not to abandon the quest model but to make the disused ones more attractive - they did this once by boosting the xp for part 2 of the necropolis, and I'd run those quests if I could ever find a group, so they must not have adjusted them enough. Heh.

Yaga_Nub

05-20-2008, 12:36 PM

moorewr

05-20-2008, 12:40 PM

Don't you know we are in a time of inflation. The gold standard is no longer good enough. I want the Platinum Standard!

Unfortunately, I know that I will be waiting a while for that level of excellence. :(

I'm waiting for the "Spitzer Standard," myself.

Yaga_Nub

05-20-2008, 12:45 PM

I'm waiting for the "Spitzer Standard," myself.

You mean the Yaga Standard - Do as I say not as I do?

moorewr

05-20-2008, 12:46 PM

You mean the Yaga Standard - Do as I say not as I do?

Um, does your version cost $5000/hr? If so, yes. :cool:

Yaga_Nub

05-20-2008, 12:49 PM

Um, does your version cost $5000/hr? If so, yes. :cool:

$5000/hr, that sir is for the peasants and commoners. $20k/hr or it's just not worth it.

debo

05-20-2008, 12:51 PM

I think design wise ... all the mods are good. I was never dissapointed in one mod when it came out. I think they do a great job on the open areas as well as creating nice story lines etc... Mod 3 with the desert was great... the raid was great. People ***** about the flagging for it but I don't have a problem with that. Makes people work for it. Mod 4... the Gianthold was great, little bit too purple for me but hey... still was a bunch of new content and quests. The reaver raid is still a wee bit too easy for my tastes ... but still can't complain. Mod 5 was great ... until they muffed up the abbot raid. The quests I thought were a little bit too short. Mod 5 gets a bad rap... but I thought it was a great addition the game. Mod 6... the vale is beautiful... the shroud is fun as hell. I just liked the whole look of it. Crafting is what it is... a big grind... but I guess that is the way it was going to go eventually. Missed the named items.

I bet mod 7 is going to be great as well. Been playing this game for about two years... and there is a reason... it is fun as hell. Differences aside with the lack of updates,terrible customer service, and management priorities... the game designers are what keeps this game going. I love every mod when they come out... just wish they were more frequent.

ahpook

05-20-2008, 02:01 PM

Seriously? I'm looking forward to this the most.

An adventure zone I can take a raid group into sounds like tons of fun. (And it might actually be a challenge for my cleric to solo ;))

Seriously. Obviously you like raid groups.

Raids are something that I will do occasionally and grudgingly because it has become required for the top end gear. But I prefer to play in my small guild of 6 people where we can all play the way we like instead of the formulaic style that RAID pugs dictate.

For those of us who prefer small parties, there is now 0 things that have been announced for Mod 7 for capped characters.

Angelus_dead

05-20-2008, 02:10 PM

Yeah but they'll have a bunch of blades passing through them all the time... that's supposed to hurt, right?:rolleyes:
(That's something they should fix once they'll have fixed the AI.)
No, it's not supposed to hurt. Because their movement is magical, a creature who comes into the blade wall and stops isn't additionally hurt until he moves through again. That is according to the D&D rules.

The spell creates a barrier, not a cutter zone. Earlier versions of the spell could be used for ongoing cutting, but that was specifically removed.

Laith

05-20-2008, 02:11 PM

Seriously. Obviously you like raid groups.

Raids are something that I will do occasionally and grudgingly because it has become required for the top end gear. But I prefer to play in my small guild of 6 people where we can all play the way we like instead of the formulaic style that RAID pugs dictate.

For those of us who prefer small parties, there is now 0 things that have been announced for Mod 7 for capped characters.interesting... until shroud there wasn't a single raid that really required more than 6-8 people.

just ran 4 of them (velah, titan, reaver, DQ) sunday in a 6-8 man guild group (people came and went). got loot out of every one of them too (4 from reaver)... but it was more of a bonus than anything.

Angelus_dead

05-20-2008, 02:12 PM

For those of us who prefer small parties, there is now 0 things that have been announced for Mod 7 for capped characters.
You can't know that for sure, but you're probably right.

What I mean is that the raids in module 1, 2, 3, and 4 were all fine to play with groups of 6 or less. Only well after module 4 did they change the raid system so that teams of over 6 were either needed or helpful.

So, although it is most likely that the new raids have been build so they're not really playable with groups of 6, we could still hope otherwise.

moorewr

05-20-2008, 02:13 PM

I really enjoyed Mod 5.. all the quests are challenging, creative, tormenting.. but they were fresh and well designed... but the business with the Raid killed the whole mod. You just can't get groups for it.

The Tombs of the Unhallowed and Forbidden are some of the best quest designs I've seen in this game. Blighted and Tormented are amazingly creative..I like Blighted a lot when it works (and there isn't some tool in the party who wont share the vial bag around). I like all of the Orchard quests, and it is still my favorite explorer zone.. but thanks to the Abbot nobody much goes there.

Aspenor

05-20-2008, 02:13 PM

Seriously. Obviously you like raid groups.

Raids are something that I will do occasionally and grudgingly because it has become required for the top end gear. But I prefer to play in my small guild of 6 people where we can all play the way we like instead of the formulaic style that RAID pugs dictate.

For those of us who prefer small parties, there is now 0 things that have been announced for Mod 7 for capped characters.

And it's your choice to play the way you do, nobody is forcing you to. You don't seriously expect Turbine to weigh and consider every single playstyle possible when planning releases, do you? Expecting to be thrown a bone just because you choose an alternative playstyle from the majority of the playerbase is, well, self-serving at best. Try making some friends, DDO is a lot more fun if you branch out rather than sticking with the same group of people.

Angelus_dead

05-20-2008, 02:16 PM

interesting... until shroud there wasn't a single raid that really required more than 6-8 people.
That is true... but starting with an update between mod4 and mod5, all raids gave at least +100% more loot to players who brought in 12 characters instead of 6.

That was a nasty double whammy: Not only is it more difficult for you to beat the raid, but you also get around half the loot as if you'd packed the team with AFK lootbots. That change turned out to be a lame way to create a "need" for full raid groups, without needing them to beat the mission.

Angelus_dead

05-20-2008, 02:18 PM

And it's your choice to play the way you do, nobody is forcing you to. You don't seriously expect Turbine to weigh and consider every single playstyle possible when planning releases, do you?
They need to consider the single most important playstyle which their game was designed around. That means teams of 4-6 characters.

They also need to step back and consider the question: Is it a good idea to put genuine 12-man raids into this game? (Hint: it's not)

Yaga_Nub

05-20-2008, 02:21 PM

And it's your choice to play the way you do, nobody is forcing you to. You don't seriously expect Turbine to weigh and consider every single playstyle possible when planning releases, do you? Expecting to be thrown a bone just because you choose an alternative playstyle from the majority of the playerbase is, well, self-serving at best. Try making some friends, DDO is a lot more fun if you branch out rather than sticking with the same group of people.

I have to agree with Asp. I'm already a bit upset that they threw the soloers a bone. It took time and effort they could have put towards making new quests rather than retro-fitting old quests for solo play. I do like the explorer areas, not because of solo play but because it expands the world and makes it feel like a world. Plus almost all the quests were able to be soloed anyway if you were just patience enough (yes even the bosses).

I do hope they start to focus on quests again as moorewr has stated. I want a one-hour quest, that takes one hour, even if I'm zerging. As it is, that's the one thing missing for me in DDO, that feeling of a marathon table-top session on ONE quest not a chain of related quests or several different quests.

Aspenor

05-20-2008, 02:22 PM

They need to consider the single most important playstyle which their game was designed around. That means teams of 4-6 characters.

They also need to step back and consider the question: Is it a good idea to put genuine 12-man raids into this game? (Hint: it's not)

Arguably, we have exactly 1 "12 person" quest in this game, the Shroud. It seems they do consider 4-6 man parties, primarily.

My main point was the bitterness exhibited by the quoted individual concerning raids. If he's so set on having 6 people, then bring 6 people. Every quest in the game can be completed with 6 people, including the Shroud.

moorewr

05-20-2008, 02:27 PM

Aspenor

05-20-2008, 02:30 PM

I think 4-6 player quests are the core playstyle of the game. Raids are the icing on the cake.. the gin in the vermouth.. the mit schlag in my Cafe Vienna...

I agree, but why should the groups of 4-6 be bitter about the release of new raids?

They can do them too, in their small groups.

moorewr

05-20-2008, 02:35 PM

I agree, but why should the groups of 4-6 be bitter about the release of new raids?

They can do them too, in their small groups.

ahpook was saying that there was nothing but raid content for high level characters announced for the new Mod, and from what's published he may well be correct.

Nobody should be biter about raids per se, but if the devs are not releasing non-raid content at high levels for six months or more, then they have a case.

Angelus_dead

05-20-2008, 02:36 PM

I agree, but why should the groups of 4-6 be bitter about the release of new raids?

They can do them too, in their small groups.
They'd be bitter because there is minimal content they can do with 4-6 players. Odds are that the "Subterane" explorer zone will be manageble with 6 guys, but the raids probably won't be. And even if they are, are least one of the raids will apply the typical loot penalty of over 100% for not filling up the group.

To claim that something like The Shroud is playable with 6 is really an exaggeration. It's technically true, but misleading.

Borror0

05-20-2008, 02:50 PM

Borror0

05-20-2008, 02:59 PM

They also need to step back and consider the question: Is it a good idea to put genuine 12-man raids into this game? (Hint: it's not)

That's exactly my stance.

IMO, they should build raids around 8 people, so it's doable with 6... and 12 if you want/need an extra hand. If you look at it, they've said that Normal was deisgned around 4 players without the uber gear. Shouldn't a raid be built around 8? I mean, it's double the same amount of slots so...

I think 4-6 player quests are the core playstyle of the game. Raids are the icing on the cake.. the gin in the vermouth.. the mit schlag in my Cafe Vienna...

What's the most ran quest? Oh yeah... the Shroud.

In a game so based in small groups playing together, forcing/encouraging players to gather in bigger groups is not a winning idea.

moorewr

05-20-2008, 03:01 PM

What's the most ran quest? Oh yeah... the Shroud.

In a game so based in small groups playing together, forcing/encouraging players to gather in bigger groups is not a winning idea.

You prove my point! People run the shroud because they have nothing else they CAN do. And then you support it. What are you trying to say?

Borror0

05-20-2008, 03:03 PM

You prove my point! People run the shroud because they have nothing else they CAN do. And then you support it. What are you trying to say?

I skept a few posts by mistake and got confused of your position.:o

Coldin

05-20-2008, 03:09 PM

Throwing my 2 cps in.

People run the Shroud because the best loot comes from the Shroud, both in the form of greensteel items, as well as +2 tomes and level 14-16 items.

moorewr

05-20-2008, 03:14 PM

Throwing my 2 cps in.

People run the Shroud because the best loot comes from the Shroud, both in the form of greensteel items, as well as +2 tomes and level 14-16 items.

Not saying they wouldn't, or that there aren't plenty of people who are raid-centric.

Borror0

05-20-2008, 03:16 PM

Throwing my 2 cps in.

People run the Shroud because the best loot comes from the Shroud, both in the form of greensteel items, as well as +2 tomes and level 14-16 items.

Yes, but that's an error within the design of the Shroud. The loot should all be at the end, imo.

ArkoHighStar

05-20-2008, 03:20 PM

Arguably, we have exactly 1 "12 person" quest in this game, the Shroud. It seems they do consider 4-6 man parties, primarily.

My main point was the bitterness exhibited by the quoted individual concerning raids. If he's so set on having 6 people, then bring 6 people. Every quest in the game can be completed with 6 people, including the Shroud.

I would hardly consider the shroud a 12 man quest it is 5 mini raid rooms connected by portals, the only 12 man quest in the game is Tempest Spine, as it follows all the same rules as all other 6 man quests except it has room for 12 people.

The shroud is the most played high end content because of what it offers in the way of loot not in that it is a fun quest experience, the shroud is a grind through mini raid bosses with craftible loot, which is what keeps people coming, loot is what keeps people doing content long after its freshness date has expired. Look at POP, how many people ran that into the ground every week just to get a Kardin's eye, how many people run out into the desert in hoped of finding a bloodstone. If the vale quest had random named loot you would see many more groups running that content, but as it stands now, people run it to get flagged and to get ingredients and hope to get +2 tomes

Coldin

05-20-2008, 03:25 PM

Yes, but that's an error within the design of the Shroud. The loot should all be at the end, imo.

Well, I think the whole point of the Shroud was to design a raid that both casual players, and hard-core players could run. Casual players mainly run 1-3 and get tier I greensteel items. The hard-core players will run parts 4-5 and get the uber tier II items.

Plus, having chests along the way means even if you lose or stop part-way through, you still get some loot in your pocket.

ArkoHighStar

05-20-2008, 03:30 PM

I agree, but why should the groups of 4-6 be bitter about the release of new raids?

They can do them too, in their small groups.

You are assuming that the raids will be completeable by small groups, either way with no details from Turbine on any of this, it is simply impossible to tell what each raid will entail. What is obvious is that content wise mod 7 is very anemic, compared to even mod 5, it looks like it will be another long summer of grinding the same old quests and raids. My one hope is that DDO gets some of that 40 million in funding and they inject some money into the dev budget so that we can et both druids and lvl 20 by the end of the year.

Ironically you look at the game now, with mod 7, the game is really quite robust, and really where it should have been at launch. Had they launched DDO in the form it is now, a lot more people would have stayed. The problem is that all of us die hards are simply burned out seeing less and less high end content being released, with longer and longer dev cycles, we get less and it takes longer and it just does not seem to be getting better.
What DDO needs is some kind of expansion pack released to retail, with content past lvl 20.

ArkoHighStar

05-20-2008, 03:32 PM

Well, I think the whole point of the Shroud was to design a raid that both casual players, and hard-core players could run. Casual players mainly run 1-3 and get tier I greensteel items. The hard-core players will run parts 4-5 and get the uber tier II items.

Plus, having chests along the way means even if you lose or stop part-way through, you still get some loot in your pocket.

Its design is exactly that way, and it works, but it is hardly a quest, just a set of increasingly difficult rooms

dragnmoon

05-20-2008, 03:35 PM

No, it's not supposed to hurt. Because their movement is magical, a creature who comes into the blade wall and stops isn't additionally hurt until he moves through again. That is according to the D&D rules.

The spell creates a barrier, not a cutter zone. Earlier versions of the spell could be used for ongoing cutting, but that was specifically removed.

Not quite true...

They would Take Dmg every round they are in the Blade barrier, or fail a save and can not move out of the blade barrier

An immobile, vertical curtain of whirling blades shaped of pure force springs into existence. Any creature passing through the wall takes 1d6 (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:void%280%29;) points of damage per caster level (maximum 15d6 (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:void%280%29;)), with a Reflex save (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#reflex) for half damage.
If you evoke the barrier so that it appears where creatures are, each creature takes damage as if passing through the wall. Each such creature can avoid the wall (ending up on the side of its choice) and thus take no damage by making a successful Reflex save (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#reflex). A blade barrier provides cover (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#cover) (+4 bonus to AC, +2 bonus on Reflex saves (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#reflex)) against attacks made through it.

From the FAQ

When do you make your save against a blade barrier spell? Suppose you have already moved in the round and someone casts a blade barrier spell on you. You are supposed to move out of the area in the most direct path to avoid damage from the spell. Since you’ve already moved, do you even get a save against the spell? If you make your save and cannot move yet, do you take damage from the spell anyway? Or do you get to move again? Or do you wait until it’s your turn and then make the save?

You make the save when the spell hits you. If you succeed, you take no damage from the spell, and you wind up on one side of the barrier or the other (under the current rules, the barrier must be vertical). Upon making a successful save, you choose which side of the barrier you’ll be on. If movement is necessary to place you on that side, you immediately move to that side along the shortest possible path, even if you’ve
already moved that round. For Medium creatures, such movement will be fairly minor (usually 5 feet). In the case of very big creatures, the DM might want to limit the creature to the side that requires the least movement. If you can’t move, or if you can’t move to a safe side, you’re stuck in the barrier and you take damage.

Info On Barrier Spells.

Some barrier spells, such as wall of fire and blade barrier deal damage to things that pass through them, but they do not otherwise block movement unless their descriptions say they do. Most such spells can be aimed so that they appear in the same location as a creature. If so, the creature takes damage as though it passed through the barrier. Usually a creature that has a barrier dropped right on it in this manner can attempt a Reflex save to avoid damage. If this save succeeds, the creature avoids the barrier and ends up on the side of its choice (this occurs at the time the barrier occurs and doesn't count against the creature's movement during its next turn).

MysticTheurge

05-20-2008, 03:36 PM

That is true... but starting with an update between mod4 and mod5, all raids gave at least +100% more loot to players who brought in 12 characters instead of 6.

That was a nasty double whammy: Not only is it more difficult for you to beat the raid, but you also get around half the loot as if you'd packed the team with AFK lootbots. That change turned out to be a lame way to create a "need" for full raid groups, without needing them to beat the mission.

Barring AFK lootbots, the current system gives you the same amount of raid loot per person regardless of group size. That is, no one's being rewarded, no one's being punished.

The old system gave you the same amount of loot, regardless of group size. Essentially this meant that small groups were rewarded while large groups were punished.

dragnmoon

05-20-2008, 03:36 PM

I've learnt something.

Well Unlearn....:D;):p

Angelus_dead

05-20-2008, 03:37 PM

Well, I think the whole point of the Shroud was to design a raid that both casual players, and hard-core players could run. Casual players mainly run 1-3 and get tier I greensteel items. The hard-core players will run parts 4-5 and get the uber tier II items.
Just because something was intentional doesn't mean it was necessarily a good idea.

Creating a single quest which is rewarding for weak players and yet never boring for strong players is very difficult. In this case, it was a mistake to have Shroud part 1 be so sleepwalkingly easy. Note, however, that there are many easy steps that could be taken to make part 1 more interesting without it becoming harder.

Angelus_dead

05-20-2008, 03:40 PM

Barring AFK lootbots, the current system gives you the same amount of raid loot per person regardless of group size. That is, no one's being rewarded, no one's being punished.
No, it does NOT. On two separate occasions I've given you complete mathematical explanations of the wrongness of that claim. If you don't believe me, you could respond to it and tell why you disagree.

I understand why people can make this mistake: if you use simplistic assumptions of the situation you'd come to a result that is oversimplified and wrong. Garbage in garbage out. The primary mistake is to assume raid loots are fungible. They're not.

Here is a word problem to help you figure it out on your own
Twelve players are ready to beat Queen Laliat. Each of them is able to solo the raid in exactly the same time it would take a group. Six are sorcs who want a Torc of Prince Rayium-de, and six are barbs who want Bracers of the Demon's Consort. To maximize their loot received, should they go in groups of 1, a group of 12, or something in-between?

Once you answer that question, you should see why the loot reward is doubly biased towards larger groups.

MysticTheurge

05-20-2008, 03:46 PM

If you don't believe me, you could respond to it and tell why you disagree.

I have.

dragnmoon

05-20-2008, 03:47 PM

I have.

Cool... Forward that to me to.. :D

Laith

05-20-2008, 03:50 PM

Angelus_dead

05-20-2008, 03:52 PM

I have.
That is untrue. I paid careful attention, and you did not reply, or act as if you had even seen it.

Anyway, why not give a fast answer here:
Do you or do you not believe raid loots are fungible?

MysticTheurge

05-20-2008, 03:54 PM

Here is a word problem to help you figure it out on your own
Twelve players are ready to beat Queen Laliat. Each of them is able to solo the raid in exactly the same time it would take a group. Six are sorcs who want a Torc of Prince Rayium-de, and six are barbs who want Bracers of the Demon's Consort. To maximize their loot received, should they go in groups of 1, a group of 12, or something in-between?

Once you answer that question, you should see why the loot reward is doubly biased towards larger groups.

Your characters need only to go in groups that are sized multiples of 2 (1 sorcerer, 1 barbarian) in order assure themselves an equal chance at the loot they desire. Whether that group is 2, 4, 6, 8, 10 or 12 people is irrelevant. Each additional set of 2 adds to the chance that the item will drop, but also adds to the chance that you won't be the one to get it.

So yes, a 12-person group where each individual person wants one specific item which is different from the item that every other personin the group wants is, in fact, the ideal group to be in if you want to get a specific piece of raid loot.

But, back in reality, that just doesn't happen. So a six person group where each person wants a different item is just as good as a 12 person group where 2 people want each given item. A four person group where each person wants a different item is just as good as a 12 person group where 3 people want each given item. And really, how many items are there in those raid loot pools that people actually want? How many people out there are actually going to want each of those items.

There will be a few scenarios where a larger group is more beneficial than a smaller group (in those few cases where you do have a wide variety of people who all want different items), but more often it's irrelevant.

Coldin

05-20-2008, 03:54 PM

Just because something was intentional doesn't mean it was necessarily a good idea.

Creating a single quest which is rewarding for weak players and yet never boring for strong players is very difficult. In this case, it was a mistake to have Shroud part 1 be so sleepwalkingly easy. Note, however, that there are many easy steps that could be taken to make part 1 more interesting without it becoming harder.

I actually enjoy Part 1. Making the increasingly dangerous mobs spawn the longer it goes presents a nice challenge. Then again, I'm the one usually keeping the mobs dead in Part 1.

And for the most part, I think the Shroud was good design. I just think Parts 4-5 are a little more challenging than they should be.

Milolyen

05-20-2008, 03:58 PM

No, it does NOT. How many times would I need to explain that to you?

On two separate occasions I've given you complete mathematical explanations of the wrongness of your claims. If you don't believe me, you could respond to it and tell why you disagree. But instead you ignore it, and then go back to repeating this myth.

I understand why people can make this mistake: if you use simplistic assumptions of the situation you'd come to a result that is oversimplified and wrong. Garbage in garbage out.

If you 3 man a raid back when you had the warded chest with the stones you got 2 raid items. That is 2/3rds of your party could get raid loot. Now take 6 people in to do the raid with 2 raid items and that is 1/3rd of party can get raid items. Now take 12 people and you get 1/6th of the party getting raid loot ... so how does it NOT punish the full raid?

Now you have the % chance per person to get raid loot no matter how many you take. If you take 3 people on a raid with a 15% chance to get raid loot you have 3 people with 15% chance to GET raid loot. You take 12 people to get raid loot then you have 12 people with the 15% chance to get raid loot. Just because you have more people does NOT increase YOUR chance at raid loot ... it increases THE RAIDS chance to get raid loot and that is 2 different things. No matter HOW you decide to twist the math.

If you have 6 people and 1 peice of raid loot drops you have 1/6th of people getting raid loot. Now if you have 12 people get 2 items you have 2/12th of the people getting raid loot. For those of you that are not good with math then 1/6 = 2/12 no matter where you are from or what planet you are on.

Nice try A_D but you scewwed the math to try and prove your point instead of going with the ACTUAL facts.

Milolyen

To answer your "word problem" the answer is IT DOES NOT MATTER if you go with groups of 4,6, or 12. EACH person has a % chance to get the item they so desire. You go as a group of 12 the chances of the Torq or Bracers dropping are greater for YOUR RAID to have them drop but not the chance that they will drop for YOU PERSONALLY.

Angelus_dead

05-20-2008, 04:09 PM

Your characters need only to go in groups that are sized multiples of 2 (1 sorcerer, 1 barbarian) in order assure themselves an equal chance at the loot they desire. Whether that group is 2, 4, 6, 8, 10 or 12 people is irrelevant.
That is completely false. The group size is relevant, as is trivially demonstrable.

For a simple example, compare the situation of four players who are deciding to go in either 2 groups of 2 or 1 group of 4. In either case they'd have even number of barb and sorc within a group.

Scenario A:
Team 1: sorc + barb
Team 2: sorc + barb

Scenario B:
Team 1: sorc + sorc + barb + barb

When the quest is won and each player looks in the chest, there are 3 possible things that can happen: He gets a Torc, he gets Bracers, or he gets Nothing relevant. 3 results per player * 4 players means total 81 outcomes to consider (although many of them are equivilent in a different order). Results can be written in the format of NNNN for nothing or NTNB for two different loots, for example. For any particular result, we can look at it under scenario A or B and tell if the benefit for the players is the same, or biased towards one scenario or the other.

So look at a result such as NNBB, which means two players got nothing and two got bracers. Under scenario B, everyone is in the same big group, so both Bracers can be resassigned to barbarians who want them. But in scenario A, only the barb in team 2 can get bracers. They cannot be reassigned to the barb in team 1, because they didn't drop for his group.

That's just one example, but it represents a class of outcomes, and anyway, a single example of where scenario B gives better loot than scenario A is sufficient to disprove your claim of irrelevance.

Laith

05-20-2008, 04:15 PM

That's just one example, but it represents a class of outcomes, and anyway, a single example of where scenario B gives better loot than scenario A is sufficient to disprove your claim of irrelevance.yes, it's a good example. but i'm not sure how it applies to larger parties.

is the increase in chance to loot multiple items of the same type actually relevent?
How often do you see 3,4,5,6+ of the same raid item in a chest?

the percentage chance for an item to drop increases linearly as you increase the number of people (albiet at a slow rate).
the percentage chance for you to GET the item doesn't decrease linearly as you add "competition", it actually slows down (50%[-50%] for one other person, 33%[-17%] for 2 other people, 25%[-8%] for 3 other people, etc).

...this is assuming that all wanted items are up for a fair roll.

PhoenixFire31

05-20-2008, 04:18 PM

...and this argument has WHAT to do with this weeks WDA?:confused:

Milolyen

05-20-2008, 04:19 PM

...and this argument has WHAT to do with this weeks WDA?:confused:

Something about raids not being good for the game and they adding 2 of them.

Atleast I think that was how it got started hun.

Milolyen

Angelus_dead

05-20-2008, 04:20 PM

Nice try A_D but you scewwed the math to try and prove your point instead of going with the ACTUAL facts.
Not at all- my result is correct. The only way it could be said to be screwed up is to be insufficient explanation to help other people understand it.

To answer your "word problem" the answer is IT DOES NOT MATTER if you go with groups of 4,6, or 12. EACH person has a % chance to get the item they so desire. You go as a group of 12 the chances of the Torq or Bracers dropping are greater for YOUR RAID to have them drop but not the chance that they will drop for YOU PERSONALLY.
Inaccurate. Do you understand what it means that "Raid loot is not fungible"?

Items are fungible if they are equally as valuable as one another, or at least can be shifted from one to another. For example, dollars and euros are fungible because you can always go to a bank and have them exchanged at some listed ratio- it's all just money. But raid loots are not fungible: not only are the different items of different value, but characters owning that item cannot trade it with others for something they really want.

That means that when judging the raid loot provided by a certain rule system, you cannot simply look at the raw number of raid loots per person and act like that's all that matters. To see the real picture of who is rewarded or punished, you also need to look at the likelihood someone can take a loot he wants, and how the group size alters that likelihood.

Angelus_dead

05-20-2008, 04:23 PM

There will be a few scenarios where a larger group is more beneficial than a smaller group (in those few cases where you do have a wide variety of people who all want different items), but more often it's irrelevant.
That's a fallacious line of reasoning. The fact that something is "often irrelevant" doesn't mean it doesn't matter, and it certainly doesn't translate into genuine irrelevance. By that logic, nobody should wear seatbelts driving their cars, because it's most often irrelevant.

Angelus_dead

05-20-2008, 04:27 PM

...and this argument has WHAT to do with this weeks WDA?:confused:
The WDA implies that new high-level content in module 7 will be mostly just 12-man raids.
Some players who cannot often organize a 12-man group are unhappy with that, and would prefer more 6-man quests instead.
Some people tell them that it doesn't matter, because they can get the same loot reward by beating the raid with 6 guys.
Other people explain that this is false, and that raid loot inherently rewards larger groups.

moorewr

05-20-2008, 04:34 PM

Milolyen

05-20-2008, 04:36 PM

Not at all- my result is correct. The only way it could be said to be screwed up is to be insufficient explanation to help other people understand it.

Inaccurate. Do you understand what it means that "Raid loot is not fungible"?

Items are fungible if they are equally as valuable as one another, or at least can be shifted from one to another. For example, dollars and euros are fungible because you can always go to a bank and have them exchanged at some listed ratio- it's all just money. But raid loots are not fungible: not only are the different items of different value, but characters owning that item cannot trade it with others for something they really want.

That means that when judging the raid loot provided by a certain rule system, you cannot simply look at the raw number of raid loots per person and act like that's all that matters. To see the real picture of who is rewarded or punished, you also need to look at the likelihood someone can take a loot he wants, and how the group size alters that likelihood.

First off the chance of your 2 bracers dropping in a two man raid would be like 1 billion to 1 (rough estimate but prolly not to far off and prolly underestimated : D ) and you are baseing your arguement of "group size alters the likelihood" of one person getting raid loot on something that has next to NO CHANCE of ever happening? Even IF that senerio happened you laugh and shrug it off, this IS a game after all and if you put THIS much work into it then how are you haveing any fun? I have always prefered the larger groups because they tend to be more fun. Titan for instance is not much of a challenge even for 3 people ... so why go as just 3 4 or 5 people? The point of a raid IS to get a larger group together and go have fun takeing down tough mobs.

The fungible part of it you stated is one of the arguements I had made about how the glyph system was not netting more useable raid loot than the current system because a lot of it in the 3 manned raids where just sold to venders cause people in the group either had it or didn't want.

Sorry but I just find it funny how you are using math as selectively as you are to argue this.

Milolyen

Yaga_Nub

05-20-2008, 04:38 PM

...and this argument has WHAT to do with this weeks WDA?:confused:

Absolutely nothing, but Gimpster, I mean A_D will still go on and on and on and and on and on AND on and on and on...

Angelus_dead

05-20-2008, 04:41 PM

The devs were explicit that the change was intended to take away any incentive to short man, and they succeeded, so you are arguing that they succeeded.
No, they were not explicit about it. Not only did they not comment on their motivation in a general sense, but they especially didn't use the term "short man". The reasoning they gave was no more involved than "Now we can reassign loot in chests, so let's do that".

It is possible that you are correct about their intention- but just because something was intentional doesn't make it a good idea.

Anyhow, there already was an existing disintcentive to use a non-full group: it lowers the chances that a group member can use the item that drops, and raises the chance that good items will rot in the chest with nobody who wants to take it.

Milolyen

05-20-2008, 04:43 PM

No, they were not explicit about it. Not only did they not comment on their motivation in a general sense, but they especially didn't use the term "short man". The reasoning they gave was no more involved than "Now we can reassign loot in chests, so let's do that".

It is possible that you are correct about their intention- but just because something was intentional doesn't make it a good idea.

Anyhow, there already was an existing disintcentive to use a non-full group: it lowers the chances that a group member can use the item that drops, and raises the chance that good items will rot in the chest with nobody who wants to take it.

There was ALWAYS that chance and the changes they made REDUCED that chance not increased it.

*Edit* While at the same time increased the benieft of going into raids with a larger group.

Milolyen

MysticTheurge

05-20-2008, 04:45 PM

By that logic, nobody should wear seatbelts driving their cars, because it's most often irrelevant.

Nice straw man.

You're line of reasoning relies on a scenario (multiple desirable items and not enough people to take them) which, as has been pointed out by several other people, happens a truly minuscule portion of the time. Your desire to inflate that to true importance is no less fallacious than my desire to disregard those scenarios.

moorewr

05-20-2008, 04:46 PM

MysticTheurge

05-20-2008, 04:48 PM

but just because something was intentional doesn't make it a good idea.

Meanwhile, just because you say so doesn't make something a bad idea.

Angelus_dead

05-20-2008, 04:49 PM

First off the chance of your 2 bracers dropping in a two man raid would be like 1 billion to 1 (rough estimate but prolly not to far off and prolly underestimated : D ) and you are baseing your arguement of "group size alters the likelihood" of one person getting raid loot on something that has next to NO CHANCE of ever happening?
No, it is NOT based on a rare situation. That particular example was uncommon because it was using a simple set of conditions: exactly two kinds of characters who desire exactly two kinds of raid loots.

Real player characters have more complex desires for variable types of loot, but the category of result still happens to them very frequently.

The most commonplace scenario is that a particular player desires one certain item from a raid. Say for example that my cleric hopes to get a Madstone Shield from Reaver's Fate. For any particular raid item, it probably is not desired by most characters: either the item is not helpful to my class at all, or I've already got something else using that equipment slot, or I've already gotten that exact item from a previous raid run. The final situation becomes more and more prevalent as time goes on.

So, supposing you're Mr. Cleric wanting a Madstone Shield. Your choices are to do Reaver with 12 players, 5 players, or solo. Which gives you the best chance of getting loot? The bigger group is by far more likely. It is improbable that someone else in the raid will compete against you to roll for the shield- and even if someone does, it's almost certain that more non-competing players than competing players were added to the pool when you choose the bigger group.

That is the choice DDO players face every day: a character has a "shopping list" of 1-3 raid items he wishes to obtain, and to get the best chance to obtain the item, he must join a raid with as many players as is allowed.

Angelus_dead

05-20-2008, 04:56 PM

You're line of reasoning relies on a scenario (multiple desirable items and not enough people to take them)
Incorrect. That is a special case of the general scenario, which is as follows:
An item drops which somebody desires, but that somebody is not in the group with us.

If raid loots were not binding and could be traded after the quest, then this would not be an issue. But they do bind, so it behooves you to raid in the largest groups possible, to maximize the chance that someone who can benefit from the item is there to use it.

which, as has been pointed out by several other people, happens a truly minuscule portion of the time. Your desire to inflate that to true importance is no less fallacious than my desire to disregard those scenarios.
It's not rare at all. Think of almost any single raid loot you could name, and then suppose you had a character that's hunting for that item. Even assuming you could beat the raid solo, would it be better for you to do it alone, or with a small group, or with a big group?

The answer is that in almost every situation, the additional loot-drops from more players will heavily outweigh the additional contention for items. More players will always increase the drops from the chest, but they will not necessarily add contention, because not all players want all items.

Angelus_dead

05-20-2008, 05:03 PM

There was ALWAYS that chance and the changes they made REDUCED that chance not increased it.
That's my point: there already was a penalty for finishing a raid with a small group- a bigger chance that nobody wants the item that drops. So the new system not only added another penalty for small groups, but also kept the old one intact.

Old:
Small group penalty: Harder battle, chance that nobody can use the item that drops
Big group penalty: Longer organizing time, fewer items per person.

New:
Small group: Harder battle, chance that nobody can use the item that drops
Big group penalty: Longer organizing time

So, what they've done is forced players who want loot to spend time padding out the raid to a full 12 players, even if you'd already gotten more than enough players to complete the quest. For something like the Laliat raid, the effort to assemble a group of 12 players absolutely dwarfs the battle itself. The raid is trivial compared to signing up for the raid, which indicates flawed game design.

That is a bad way to make a raid take more players. It's a cop-out: The encounter isn't challenging enough to give more than 3-4 players anything to do, so let's change the loot so they need to bring another 8-9 players simply to maximize chest output.

Aesop

05-20-2008, 05:04 PM

gee Mister Peabody when did we use the wayback machine?

I seem to recall conversations about this several months ago.

http://media.movieweb.com/news/09.2006/peabody.jpg

Sherman... er...I mean

Aesop

Laith

05-20-2008, 05:31 PM

It is improbable that someone else in the raid will compete against you to roll for the shield- and even if someone does, it's almost certain that more non-competing players than competing players were added to the pool when you choose the bigger group.that's a very situational assumption. try applying it to raids that aren't run as commonly as reaver, and items that are more popular and/or less commonly looted than the madstone shield.

Borror0

05-20-2008, 05:36 PM

Even assuming you could beat the raid solo, would it be better for you to do it alone, or with a small group, or with a big group?

The answer is that in almost every situation, the additional loot-drops from more players will heavily outweigh the additional contention for items. More players will always increase the drops from the chest, but they will not necessarily add contention, because not all players want all items.

So, what they've done is forced players who want loot to spend time padding out the raid to a full 12 players, even if you'd already gotten more than enough players to complete the quest. For something like the Laliat raid, the effort to assemble a group of 12 players absolutely dwarfs the battle itself. The raid is trivial compared to signing up for the raid, which indicates flawed game design.

That is a bad way to make a raid take more players. It's a cop-out: The encounter isn't challenging enough to give more than 3-4 players anything to do, so let's change the loot so they need to bring another 8-9 players simply to maximize chest output.

Exactly.

Angelus_dead

05-20-2008, 05:39 PM

Anytime you add a cleric, sorc, or wizzy to a DQ raid, for example, you can almost guarantee that they would like to roll on the Torc. It has all 3 of the above factors against it.

The same can be said for ANY strength based melee and the sword of shadows.
Those things are true, but they do not change the bias towards larger groups.

It is true that if you have one barb in a Velah raid who only wants SOS, the addition of another barb wanting the same item would be detrimental to him. But to the group as a whole it is beneficial, because he is not really in contention with other players wanting other items. The chance he'll want to take the Kundarak Delving Suit or Helm of Mronanon is much lower. And although Kundarak Delving Boots are valuable to everyone, the chance that he'll contend for them them is generally lower than the increased drop rate he brings to the quest as a whole.

Laith

05-20-2008, 05:43 PM

Those things are true, but they do not change the bias towards larger groups.
wait, so you're saying that 12 people should run in one quest as opposed to 6 seperate ones to get loot that binds on pickup. why are you even arguing this?

You could say the same thing about The Cursed Crypt: It's harder to run if you solo it, and the binding necklace only benefits one person (or no one if you dont' need it). It's the entire nature of Bind on Pickup equipment.

It is the game mechanic aimed at getting people to group.
It does its job.

ahpook

05-20-2008, 05:49 PM

And it's your choice to play the way you do, nobody is forcing you to. You don't seriously expect Turbine to weigh and consider every single playstyle possible when planning releases, do you? Expecting to be thrown a bone just because you choose an alternative playstyle from the majority of the playerbase is, well, self-serving at best.
Hey, no worries, not expecting them to cater to my playstyle. If this is where the majority is at, good for catering to them.

When I joined, 99% of the content was not a raid. Every module since then has placed more emphasis on the raids. If the new modules are going to 100% raids and that is what will keep the most players active, great! Just letting them know that it is not necessarily what I signed up for nor what I am interested in playing. No bitterness, just feedback.

Try making some friends, DDO is a lot more fun if you branch out rather than sticking with the same group of people.
However, condescending remarks like this could make me bitter. I have more than enough friends and please don't tell me what I will enjoy.

Angelus_dead

05-20-2008, 05:49 PM

wait, so you're NOT talking about the benefit of the individuals, but instead the bias toward larger groups.
umm... welcome to DDO: where EVERY chest creates an amount of loot in direct proportion to the number of hands reaching inside.
The group size bias effect is not similar between quests and raids.

If we're looting Planar Girds from Xorian Cipher, then two groups of 3 players has exactly the same output as one group of 6 players. There is no incentive for them to merge their groups, except that teamwork can make it easier and faster for them to travel through the quest.

But if we're looting Madstone Boots from Reaver's Fate, then two groups of 3 players has a lower chance of getting the item to someone who can use it than if they had merged into one group of 6.

This discrepancy would not occur if it were possible to trade raid loots after the raid was over. It also wouldn't occur if it were impossible to reassign raid loots within the chest. But, because you are allowed to exchange raid loots during the raid, but not afterwards, there is a bias towards having the largest group possible, which increases the pool of potential characters to whom the loot can be assigned. In turn, that increases the chance the loot goes to someone who can use it, instead of someone who view it as vendor trash.

ahpook

05-20-2008, 05:52 PM

That is a bad way to make a raid take more players. It's a cop-out: The encounter isn't challenging enough to give more than 3-4 players anything to do, so let's change the loot so they need to bring another 8-9 players simply to maximize chest output.

Generally what you say is correct, but I don't think the changes had much to do with getting more people to run the raid. It was simply about slowing down the flow of raid loot getting generated. The "more people" was a side effect but certainly not the primary reason.

Angelus_dead

05-20-2008, 05:57 PM

wait, so you're saying that 12 people should run in one quest as opposed to 6 seperate ones to get loot that binds on pickup. why are you even arguing this?
The proximate reason I'm discussing it is because someone came into this thread and claimed that the bias towards larger groups didn't exist, which is false. Using false conclusions as the basis for future game design leads to problems.

In the bigger picture, the reason I dislike the new raid loot system is that it made DDO noticeably less fun. It increased the ratio of time spent LFM versus time in quest, and it also increased the proportion of players in a raid standing around waiting to loot instead of participating in the mission.

You could say the same thing about The Cursed Crypt: It's harder to run if you solo it, and the binding necklace only benefits one person (or no one if you dont' need it). It's the entire nature of Bind on Pickup equipment.
No, it's not the same. If I have 5 players almost at the end of Cursed Crypt and we're ready to jump down and blast the final boss, then I have no loot incentive to add another player to the group. We might want to bring in another player if we want to help him get loot for himself, or if we think he'd help accomplish objectives, or maybe just because of his winning personality.

But in terms of the loot we receive, we don't need to invite anyone else. Each of us will get exactly 1 Silver Flame Talisman, and it is impossible for one character to hold more. For raids that is different, because another player could get an item you'd like, and he can give it to you during the raid, but not afterwards.

MrCow

05-20-2008, 05:57 PM

*Looks through to find several pages of statistical theory and application to game mechanics in regards to high-end bound item acquisition*

So... ummm... yay for stealth attacks granting two hits for two weapon fighting? :p

Borror0

05-20-2008, 05:59 PM

It was simply about slowing down the flow of raid loot getting generated.

What's so bad about it? It makes it easier for those who don't play/raid much to have their raid loot, and those who raid/play more will have it no matter what.

Angelus_dead

05-20-2008, 06:01 PM

So... ummm... yay for stealth attacks granting two hits for two weapon fighting? :p
Yay indeed! That was a bug report I submitted.

Actually, now that you mention it, I see that it's actually a fairly important point. In fact, it probably majorly increases the power of the Way of the Assassin II death attack.

You see, the most recent revision of Death Attack has it only usable in sneak mode. Active melee special attacks (such as Trip and Stunning Blow, and even Smite Evil) apply to both of the attacks in an animation at once. A person who uses Stunning Blow with GTWF forces the monster to roll two saving throws, so even if his fortitude is super-high there's still a 10% chance of a successful stun.

Before the change to stealth TWF, there was no way to get double Death Attacks in one action. Now, presumably, there will be.

Laith

05-20-2008, 06:01 PM

But if we're looting Madstone Boots from Reaver's Fate, then two groups of 3 players has a lower chance of getting the item to someone who can use it than if they had merged into one group of 6.who'd a thunk: a multiplayer game that rewards those who play well with others.

Angelus_dead

05-20-2008, 06:03 PM

Generally what you say is correct, but I don't think the changes had much to do with getting more people to run the raid. It was simply about slowing down the flow of raid loot getting generated. The "more people" was a side effect but certainly not the primary reason.
That may be correct- since the devs didn't tell what their intentions are, it's mostly guesswork.

However, bear in mind that the same patch had a much more important change to reduce the flow of raid loot: it closed the door to Reaver's Fate, preventing someone from switching characters to bring in exactly the alt who needed the item he won. Prior to that change there was a much much higher chance that raid loot went to someone who needed it.

In fact, if an item appeared which nobody wanted, some players would even make an LFM and invite a random stranger to come in and take it. That meant that there were some characters with multiple items of Reaver loot who had never finished that raid even once.

Borror0

05-20-2008, 06:07 PM

who'd a thunk: a multiplayer game that rewards those who play well with others.

If a group of others for DQ could be built in a short time, then I wouldn't mind.:D

Angelus_dead

05-20-2008, 07:19 PM

who'd a thunk: a multiplayer game that rewards those who play well with others.
The loot system doesn't actually necessarily promote "playing together". What it encourages is "being in the same group until you loot".

If there are 5 people ready to beat Queen Laliat on their own, they will be rewarded by more chances for loot if they add another 7 characters to the team, regardless of if those people actually play the quest, or just follow along and loot.

Given that the raids in question are manageable by teams of 6 appropriately-leveled characters, encouraging players to use groups of twice that size makes the game less fun.

MysticTheurge

05-20-2008, 11:07 PM

Given that the raids in question are manageable by teams of 6 appropriately-leveled characters, encouraging players to use groups of twice that size makes the game less fun.

So, honestly. What's the solution.

Given the following criteria, what kind of raid loot system actually works:

1) Nothing that rewards smaller groups over larger groups. That means no "X guaranteed items" as that promotes short-manning.

2) Nothing that rewards larger groups over smaller groups for the sole purpose of getting more loot. So, nothing like the current system.

3) A reasonably-low amount of raid loot distributed. Something on par with the current 1/6 chance of getting an item.

4) Reasonably quality of life issues. That is, as little "Everyone's stuck with loot they can't use" as possible.

How do you make it work? Usually, you're more than willing to propose your own "better" systems when you disapprove of something in the game, but in this instance you seem remarkably stuck on the sole fact that you don't like the current system without actually providing something that works better. Or is it just not possible to make the "perfect" system?

moorewr

05-20-2008, 11:12 PM

So, honestly. What's the solution.

Given the following criteria, what kind of raid loot system actually works:

1) Nothing that rewards smaller groups over larger groups. That means no "X guaranteed items" as that promotes short-manning.

2) Nothing that rewards larger groups over smaller groups for the sole purpose of getting more loot. So, nothing like the current system.

3) A reasonably-low amount of raid loot distributed. Something on par with the current 1/6 chance of getting an item.

4) Reasonably quality of life issues. That is, as little "Everyone's stuck with loot they can't use" as possible.

How do you make it work? Usually, you're more than willing to propose your own "better" systems when you disapprove of something in the game, but in this instance you seem remarkably stuck on the sole fact that you don't like the current system without actually providing something that works better. Or is it just not possible to make the "perfect" system?

I'd say the current system or End-Reward-Only are your only real options. In fact, the end-reward chance could be the same as we have now in the raid chest, and it would certainly be group-size neutral. It would also mean a lot of raid items sold to vendors.

MysticTheurge

05-20-2008, 11:43 PM

It would also mean a lot of raid items sold to vendors.

Yeah, that's why I included criteria 4, which an end-reward-only system pretty thoroughly violates.

Auran82

05-20-2008, 11:54 PM

So, honestly. What's the solution.

Given the following criteria, what kind of raid loot system actually works:

1) Nothing that rewards smaller groups over larger groups. That means no "X guaranteed items" as that promotes short-manning.

2) Nothing that rewards larger groups over smaller groups for the sole purpose of getting more loot. So, nothing like the current system.

3) A reasonably-low amount of raid loot distributed. Something on par with the current 1/6 chance of getting an item.

4) Reasonably quality of life issues. That is, as little "Everyone's stuck with loot they can't use" as possible.

How do you make it work? Usually, you're more than willing to propose your own "better" systems when you disapprove of something in the game, but in this instance you seem remarkably stuck on the sole fact that you don't like the current system without actually providing something that works better. Or is it just not possible to make the "perfect" system?

You could allow players to collect ingredients and craft their own loot? :D

Another thing you could do is have tokens (like invaders) which you can hand in for either a raid item of your choice, or a choice from a number of options, only problem is depending on the number of tokens which drop in each raid, and how many you need, this would mean you would most likely need to 'grind' raids to get items.

Maybe you could have a system where (for example) for each 6 people in the raid, one item is guaranteed to drop for someone (randomly selected) then everyone else has a chance for a raid item to drop for them (maybe with the percentage dropping for each guaranteed drop for that run). If that makes any sense.

Angelus_dead

05-21-2008, 12:44 AM

Given the following criteria, what kind of raid loot system actually works:
Fulfilling those criteria would not lead to fun gameplay.

How do you make it work? Usually, you're more than willing to propose your own "better" systems when you disapprove of something in the game, but in this instance you seem remarkably stuck on the sole fact that you don't like the current system without actually providing something that works better. Or is it just not possible to make the "perfect" system?
This is a WDA thread, intended for discussion of the past week's development activities. A proposal to adjust or revert a change made last year would be rather far off-topic.

But, since you asked, I will very briefly give two separate alternative systems, either of which would be superior to the present method:

1. 2 loots per raid completion, but randomly distributed inside the box, instead of leader's choice. Players can reassign if they wish. If the owner leaves the instance without taking it, the item randomly reassigns to someone else automatically.

2. As the current system, but in-chest loot reassignment is disabled. You can either take it for yourself, or leave it. To compensate for less distribution, the chance of raid loot is greatly increased (tripled at a minumum)

Aesop

05-21-2008, 06:16 AM

Fulfilling those criteria would not lead to fun gameplay.

But... This is what you are asking for

This is a WDA thread, intended for discussion of the past week's development activities. A proposal to adjust or revert a change made last year would be rather far off-topic.

Um... so is everything for the last several pages that you've been discussing ...

But, since you asked, I will very briefly give two separate alternative systems, either of which would be superior to the present method:

Kinda figured you would

1. 2 loots per raid completion, but randomly distributed inside the box, instead of leader's choice. Players can reassign if they wish. If the owner leaves the instance without taking it, the item randomly reassigns to someone else automatically.

Ah I see you basically wat the old system again... only the leader doesn't chose and people will start soloing the raids again and turn a MMO in to an FPS. Don't get me wrong I see soloing a tough quest as an acheivement but not a way to play the game on a regular basis

2. As the current system, but in-chest loot reassignment is disabled. You can either take it for yourself, or leave it. To compensate for less distribution, the chance of raid loot is greatly increased (tripled at a minumum)

So the loot lucky are all set and those of us who have never ... ever pulled anyt raid loot or even a vorpal ... well we're pretty screwed... "I don't think this plan was very well thought out"

thoughts in red

PhoenixFire31

05-21-2008, 08:19 AM

NM edited so I don't get in trouble...

/walks off muttering to herself...