Monks are coming so....

[Leyoni]

I know it is possible but is there any reason (other than just to do it for my own satisfaction) to combine Paladin with Monk?

Both are Lawful. Paladins have to be LG but I figure this will be the option of choice for most Monks as well. Both are stat intensive. Charisma is generally the dump stat for Monks but wouldn't be if multi-classed with Paladin.

I have the ability to go with 32-point builds and was thinking of a Dwarf Paladin 3/Monk ?. Starting stats would be 13, 13, 15, 12, 13, 13 with the plan to eat a +1 tome on all the odd numbers at L1. First two feats would be Toughness.

Is this playable? What will be the down side?

Thx

[Samadhi]

The problem is that you are going to have a horrible time hitting anything. With both str and dex that low, you would have a hard time hitting anything on a full BAB build. Monks are a partial BAB build, so that problem just got worse for you. As a melee, you will not be particularly effective if you can't hit.

[Aspenor]

Well it's possible, might not be the best idea though. Monks get all the important abilities of a paladin, and then some. And they already have the highest save progressions.

[Leyoni]

Thx for the insights.

What happens if I drop CHA to 8 (relying on +1 CHA enhancement, +1 tome and stat items to raise to 16 eventually) and increase STR and CON to 16 each? Makes starting stats 16, 13, 16, 12, 13, 8.

I know that the discussion is about STR v DEX but it seems high STR is likely better because you need to take Weapon Finesse to benefit from high DEX (and still don't gain on the damage roll).

It means needing to have a +2 CHA item available right away (which isn't really a problem).

Thx again,

[Talon_Moonshadow]

AC comes to mind.
Wiz adds AC for Monks, and SP and spell DC (are there any that have a DC?) for Pal.
Cha adds AC to Pal.

But how on earth do you get ability scores high enough to actually beneift from this, I do not know. :(

[Leyoni]

AC comes to mind.
Wiz adds AC for Monks, and SP and spell DC (are there any that have a DC?) for Pal.
Cha adds AC to Pal.

But how on earth do you get ability scores high enough to actually beneift from this, I do not know. :(

I thought the current thinking was that AC was pointless in the end game. DEX of 14 (13 base & +1 tome) with +6 item gives DEX 20 for +5, WIS of 14 (same as DEX) with +6 item gives WIS 20 for another +5, Paladin gets +1 AC (+2 with enhancements) for total of +12. That gives AC 22. Add +4 bracers and +5 deflection item and barkskin gives 35 AC. Not going to get much better from there. Monks gain natural AC, or do they?

Nothing stops getting hit, so I thought the currently popular notion was to go for HP so that you survive.

If I drop CHA back to 6 and lose Paladin then I miss out on 2 AC and don't really improve anywhere else. With Paladin I gain +2 AC and +2 (or more with enhancements) to saving throws. I miss out on whatever Monks get at levels 14-16. Am I missing something else?

Thx again (again),

[Dungnmaster001]

a Monk/Paladin might be nice but honestly not really worth it IMO. Monks are already heavily stat dependant, adding paladin takes away the only real dump stat they have available (charisma).Monks saves are already going to be good across the board (con dex and wis are all important for monks, and they have the best base saves of any class). About the only real reason I can think of for adding paladin is fear immunity at 3rd, nice but not really enough reason to splash paladin into monk for me. My first monk is liable to be pure, later on I may make a ranger/monk hybrid but to start with I'll be going pure

[PhoenixFire31]

Personally I am thinking on a 3 Pally/1 Monk/12 Ranger going high dex tempest for a great AC and ability to still do damage. I have not fully decided though on going past 6 ranger. I may continue the pally or monk depending which monk abilities make it into the game. It's going to be a lot of trial and error/rerolling for me (as if this is a change from the norm:rolleyes:.) :D

[Leyoni]

Thx Dungnmaster001 and PhoenixFire31 for your input. But, it doesn't really answer my questions. I've seen other threads on what probable Monk builds will be like and I know that Monks are very stat intensive. And, I know that there will be other multiclass build ideas getting discussed.

What I am wondering is if a Paladin/Monk multiclass will work. At first I was told that STR and DEX were too low and that I'd have trouble hitting stuff. So, I adjusted stats to increase STR. Most builds that I've seen posted don't offer STR over 16, so I thought I had fixed that objection.

The other part has to do with AC. I still think that HP is favored over AC for end-game players. Higher CON seems a better option than higher DEX. Paladin actually makes up for the 1 AC difference that DEX 16 would give over DEX 14.

There has to be something that I'm missing. Are the Monk abilities at levels 14-16 so good that it doesn't make sense to splash a second class?

Any other thoughts?

Thx

[Wizzly_Bear]

befiore i woulf offer advice on this, i gotta ask....

why do you want to do this?

if its cuz you want to, then do it.

however, if its cuz you think its uber, then sadly you are mistaken. the only ability that pallies get that monks dont is the fear immunity, but monks get high will saves to resist it and sr to avoid it altogether. not to mention you can quaff a remove fear pot or just wear a reaver ring or neg shroud item.

so unless its something you want to do, then theres no reason to do it as there is no benefit.

[Wizzly_Bear]

There has to be something that I'm missing. Are the Monk abilities at levels 14-16 so good that it doesn't make sense to splash a second class?
noone yet knows what abilities monks will have. however, the pt everyone is making is that there is no benefit to splashing pally. monk is best used as a pure or a splash (ie all monk or mostly something else with 1 or 2 monk levels.
0

[Spectralist]

You could certainly make a good monkx/pal2~. But you wouldn't want to have such balanced stats for it. You'd either want to go finesse with huge dex, high wis, high cha, and whatever leftover in con . Or high Str, con, cha, and whatever left over in Wis. In either case you'd have absolutely huge saves. The first one would be able to reach huge unbuffed ACs. The second would, depending on how flurry of blows works, be able to reach DPS close to most current damage builds, only with much higher saves.

If you're going dwarf i would suggest the all str, con, cha method as they wont be able to get enough combined dex/wis, and therefore AC, to make up for skimping on the con. Something like:
Str: 18 + 4 levels + 6 item + 2 tome = 30
Dex: 8 + 6 item = 14
Con: 16 + 2 enhancement + 6 item = 24
Int: 8
Wis: 8 + 6 item + 3 enhancement = 17
Cha: 14 + 1 tome + 1 enhancement + 6 item = 22

Such a build should be able to reach 30+ in all saves. Would have(assuming 14m/2p) 24 SR. Very fast movement speed. And, if flurry of blows is anywhere near as good as it is in pnp, have DPS with a quarterstaff comparable to that reached by most current tank builds. Shouldn't be hard to get 350~hp either. Of course it's all guesswork at the moment. Hopefully we'll get more info on how monks work this week.

[Aesop]

The problem is that you are going to have a horrible time hitting anything. With both str and dex that low, you would have a hard time hitting anything on a full BAB build. Monks are a partial BAB build, so that problem just got worse for you. As a melee, you will not be particularly effective if you can't hit.

Honestly this really isn't true. Do you really think that a -2 (vs maximum stating strength of 18) is gonna make things inhittable?

Dang it I don't have time to elaborate.... stupid work thing


Start with 3 pally levels and go from there and you can probably drop the Int ...unless you are going for Combat Expertise.

And only go with 1 Toughness Feat... 2 is overkill and the amount you get from Dwarven Toughness is way more than you get from the feat


Aesop

[Leyoni]

Thx everyone for the insights.

[honkuimushi]

4 Paladin levels aren't bad. Taking 4 levels of Full BAB classes will increase your BAB by one point to 16. This is more important in PnP where you gain your last attack at BAB 16. The other things you gain are additional save bonuses, the aura bonuses to AC and Saves, Fear immunity and Lay on Hands. Turn undead is currently a waste, but it might be useful if Divine Might is ever added. Virtue isn't a bad addition either. I think the Lay on Hands, aura AC bonuses, and saving throw bonuses in particular would be assets.

The additional stat requirement is the main downside. You also give up Timeless Body, Empty Body and Perfect Self from levels 17-20 but honestly, they're not that great. Perhaps more important is the reduction in Spell Resistance, unarmed damage(2d8 vs. 2d10) and slow fall (10 feet less.) Of course if epic levels are added you could take those eventually and since the epic Monk levels don't add any new abilities, you might be better off as a Monk 20/Paladin 4 rather than a Monk 24.

Getting a meaningful AC at end game is fairly difficult right now and requires some rare loot to get there. One of the benefits of a Monk, is they are less dependent on these rare items and so they should be able to reach that level a lot easier than most characters. They pretty much need to focus on 1 AC item(Robes or Bracers) and stat items(Dexterity and Wisdom.) Contrary to what was stated above, Charisma does not add to AC, only to saves. Now items like the Chaosguards and Chattering Ring will still be very useful to AC focused characters, but you don't have to hunt down +5 Mithril fullplate and a +5 Mithril tower shield. Nor do you have to worry about having enough Fighter levels (or Dwarven Race) to get enough Fighter Armor Mastery or having to spend the APs for it.

The main benefit to AC is the addition of Wisdom to AC. If you want to use Dex to increase your AC, you have to worry about getting armor that allows you to use it and you have to spend build points on Dex. You have a maximum starting bonus or +4 (or 5) which costs 16 points. Then you gain 5 increases through level ups, tomes and up to +6 for an item. Monks don't have to worry about max Dex and because they gain a bonus from Dex and Wisdom, those same 16 points will buy you +5 (or 6) to AC if you divide them between Wis and Dex and you can increase them further if you can accept the tradeoffs. And, in addition to your 5 points from level ups, you can add tomes and items to both scores. Monks also get a +1 to AC for every 5 levels of Monk they have.

Even Strength based Monks should be able to achieve a decent AC. But Dexterity based monks should be among the best in the game with less effort than most tank builds. The tradeoff is AC for Damage. Strength builds do more damage obviously and they can use the feat they didn't spend on Weapon Finesse for a more offensive feat. Dex builds sacrifice that feat, but gain both AC and to hit bonus for every 2 points in Dex. The starting stats for a Dex build vs. a Str build are likely to be very similar, the differences will mostly be found in how they spend their 5 level up points and what items they wear. Races may also be different. Drow, elf and halfling make good Dex builds. Dwarves, and eventually half-orcs, can make good Str builds. And humans and Warforged work well with either. You can of course go against type.

I could see a Paladin splash benefiting both builds. The primary benefits to a Str based build would be the boost to reflex saves. The extra BAB helps too. Monks get Evasion and Improved Evasion, but without a good dex score, your reflex saves may be somewhat lacking. The Save boosts would fix that. The extra +1 to AC is helpful, but secondary.

The Dex build would find the saves boosts more helpful for Fortitude and Will saves since their Reflex saves should be very high already and you still fail 5% of the time. The BAB increase is again, helpful, but the main benefit is the +1 AC over a pure Monk. However, If you have a high level Pally around, the auras will overlap and the pure monk will have a higher AC.

Finally, he are a few of my suggetions on stats. I would suggest putting 6 points in wisdom and dex. Both are important stats no matter what your build is and it seems a waste to pass up a 1 to 1 stat buy opportunuty. +2 tomes are becoming more available with one available at 1750, and another of your choice being available after your 20th completion the Shroud. In addition there are unbound ones avaialble too. Intellegence should start even, but you need to ask yourself what you need a 12 for. If you plan on taking Combat Expertise, a 12 is good. But is an extra skill point/ level valuable enough to justify the extra build points? Finally, if you splash Paladin, you get an enhancment to increase Charisma by 1 at Paladin level 2. Take that into account in deciding whether to go even or odd.

Sorry this is a bit rambling. In short, there are decent reasons to splash Paladin, but the benefits stop around 4th level. It isn't brokenly powerful, but it has some nice benefits. But it does require a lot of though ahead of time to avoid gimping it, especially in regards to stat allocation. This is made more difficult by the fact that very little has been released about the DDO Monk. Depending on the implementaion, it could magnify or destroy the synergy that exists between these 2 classes. But if you decide to multiclass, you have to decide what you want to do, then make a plan on how to achieve it. That will require some number crunching in terms of AC, to hit, damage and saves. Hopefully, this will get easier in a few weeks as we get more information on Monks.

[fatherpirate]

The problem with a lot of class combo's boils down to stats....some combo's are complimentory...most are not.

problem putting classes with pally....only 2 work , cleric and fighter. In both cases, why do it? A pally is already
half fighter / half cleric.

Monk/cleric works better. The reason is clerics only need Wisdom and maybe Chrisma..a pally needs that and Strength and Constitution, leaving
zip for dex. Pally just has too many stat req. already.

[Leyoni]

And, if flurry of blows is anywhere near as good as it is in pnp, have DPS with a quarterstaff comparable to that reached by most current tank builds.

Spectralist,

Your post was very helpful. I'm curious about your statement reference flurry of blows and quarterstaff DPS. Does flurry of blows count when equipped with a quarterstaff? I thought it only applied to unarmed combat.

Thx

[Dungnmaster001]

Spectralist,

Your post was very helpful. I'm curious about your statement reference flurry of blows and quarterstaff DPS. Does flurry of blows count when equipped with a quarterstaff? I thought it only applied to unarmed combat.

Thx

flurry of blows can be used with any monk weapon (kama, quarterstaff, unarmed, I think those are the only ones in DDO currently.

I'm wondering how they will implement FoB though. Will it be an actual extra attack like it is in PnP or will it be an attack speed increase... If it's an attack speed increase then it'd make it much easier to incorporate with 2wf.

edit, also keep in mind that in PnP if you use flurry of blows with a quarterstaff it's not considered a 2 handed weapon anymore and you don't get the 1.5 str modifier.

[Spectralist]

Spectralist,

Your post was very helpful. I'm curious about your statement reference flurry of blows and quarterstaff DPS. Does flurry of blows count when equipped with a quarterstaff? I thought it only applied to unarmed combat.

Thx

It should apply to all 'special monk weapons'. Quarterstaffs, Kamas, and Fists are the only ones we have in DDO i believe. I'm not really a monk expert though.

Edit: Hah, beaten too it.

I'm wondering how they will implement FoB though. Will it be an actual extra attack like it is in PnP or will it be an attack speed increase... If it's an attack speed increase then it'd make it much easier to incorporate with 2wf.
I'm hoping it will be an extra (not animated)attack roll on the last attack of your chain. But i suspect it will indeed be an attack speed boost.

[Aesop]

The problem with a lot of class combo's boils down to stats....some combo's are complimentory...most are not.

problem putting classes with pally....only 2 work , cleric and fighter. In both cases, why do it? A pally is already
half fighter / half cleric.

Monk/cleric works better. The reason is clerics only need Wisdom and maybe Chrisma..a pally needs that and Strength and Constitution, leaving
zip for dex. Pally just has too many stat req. already.

really Pally works well with any class that can be Lawful Good... at least 2-3 levels of it do

Pally 2-3/Rogue x is an awesome combo in which your Rogue gains all martial weapons, Divine Health,Divine Grace, CxW wands, LoH, Aura of Courage and up to +2 to AC and Saves while losing 1d6 sneak attack, 1 Rogue Special, some Skill Points ... and that's about it. 4 levels of pally or a level of fighter will add an extra fdeat and increase BAB to a 16 by level 20 (which is important in PnP... not sure in DDO)


Pally Ranger has some truly aweful complimentary abilities as well

2 levels of Pally with Sorc gives Cure Wands and a HUGE boost to Saves

Monk gains all the bonuses that a rogue would gain and would lose a few points of SR and the DR 10/magic... which mobs out there aren't throwing magic anyway

really though I think the best combos are Rogue Ranger and Fighter though Monk has a special place in my heart... which is why I have a Pally 3 ready for her Monk levels

Aesop

[Leyoni]

Thx everyone for your posts. Of course, now I have lots more questions.

Does FoB count as a special attack? Do you suppose it will be something you have to activate and that will have a cool down between uses, maybe a limited number of uses per rest or tied to the amount of Ki power that you have?

Do Monks have a separate attack progression for non-FoB attacks?

If FoB applies to Monk weapons then do you expect high numbers of TWF spec Monks using kamas?

Does Monk SR stack with Drow SR?

Lastly, do Monks get DD and OL like rogues (I ask because the D&D wiki says they get escape artist but I don't know what that means)?

As always, thx

[Dungnmaster001]

Thx everyone for your posts. Of course, now I have lots more questions.

Does FoB count as a special attack? Do you suppose it will be something you have to activate and that will have a cool down between uses, maybe a limited number of uses per rest or tied to the amount of Ki power that you have?
I sure hope not, this would likely be the only thing that could keep me from playing a monk in DDO

Do Monks have a separate attack progression for non-FoB attacks?
In 3.0 they did, but in 3.5 FoB gives 1 extra attack with a -2 penalty to all attacks in the round (the penalty gets reduced as you progress in levels though)

If FoB applies to Monk weapons then do you expect high numbers of TWF spec Monks using kamas?
I do expect such. The only grey area is whether or not FoB will stack with 2wf. It should (according to WotC's 3.5 faq but there seems to be contradictions even in the official answers) If it does then absolutely. If not then there wouldn't be much point.

Does Monk SR stack with Drow SR?
SR never stacks, the higher will apply.

Lastly, do Monks get DD and OL like rogues (I ask because the D&D wiki says they get escape artist but I don't know what that means)?
No they don't, Escape artist isn't in DDO but in pnp it lets you wriggle out of ropes/restraints etc, but doesn't let you pick locks. Think of someone who can slip out of straight jackets.

As always, thx
your welcome :)

responses in red

[Spectralist]

Does FoB count as a special attack? Do you suppose it will be something you have to activate and that will have a cool down between uses, maybe a limited number of uses per rest or tied to the amount of Ki power that you have?

It is, of course, all guesswork at the moment. But my guess would be that it will be an activated stance. Like power attack/combat expertise. Hopefully it will be able to stack with those. But the cynic in me says probably not.

[wolfy42]

If I was going to make a pally/monk combo I would probably go with mostly monk levels (and maybe a few fighter or ranger lvls).

Just splash enough monk levels to get wis bonus to AC and flurry of blows.

possibly 6 ranger levels for tempest and improved TWF for free.

And the rest Paladin.

Currently that would give you something like 2 monk/6 ranger/8 pally although you might get away with 1 monk 9 pally I guess.

The build would be a dex based TWF build and would have insanely high saving throws. The real question would be do you aim for 9 ranger lvls for evasion or not......or stick with pally levels?.

If 1 monk level is enough eventually by 20 you could go with monk 1/ranger 9/pally 10.

You should get some nice bonuses to your dmg though between rangers might spell and pally's Divine Favor spell. If monk flurry of blows stacks with greater TWF you'd have a ton of attacks, and your AC could be pretty extreme between dex and wisdom boosts (gives you a nice selection of robes to wear as well).

[Aesop]

12ranger/7pally/1Monk

Barkskin +5
30pt resists
str based greater twf
Ram's Might
+3 Resist and AC Aura
Divine Favor +2/+2
+2 Cha
+1 Wis
+3 Dex
Fav Enemy 3 (evil outsiders,Undead, Giants)
Fav Enemy Enhancements
Wis Bonus to AC
Tempest
Dual Kamas

La Machine
Whirrrrr

Mobs become a fine red mist

Aesop

[Leyoni]

Dungnmaster001 thanks for the info on the WoC faq.

Seems likely that TWF means an added -2 to attacks but grants the extra attacks per round with attacks split between main and off hand as normal. Splashing 1 level of Monk would grant FoB but at a -2 penalty to all attacks (effectively gaining +1 attack per round with the main hand but at a lower to hit). So, a TWF FoB character with a 1 Monk splash would be a net -4 on all attacks. Does that sound right?

Aesop, your suggestion is to overcome the -4 with Ram Might and Divine Favor. Is that correct? Also, you are still suggesting STR based rather than DEX based with Weapon Finesse. Is that for the STR bonus to damage?

Thx again. It is all coming together slowly like a light bulb on a dimmer switch. (And someone keeps turning the switch up, then down, then up....)

[Aesop]

Dungnmaster001 thanks for the info on the WoC faq.

Seems likely that TWF means an added -2 to attacks but grants the extra attacks per round with attacks split between main and off hand as normal. Splashing 1 level of Monk would grant FoB but at a -2 penalty to all attacks (effectively gaining +1 attack per round with the main hand but at a lower to hit). So, a TWF FoB character with a 1 Monk splash would be a net -4 on all attacks. Does that sound right?

Aesop, your suggestion is to overcome the -4 with Ram Might and Divine Favor. Is that correct? Also, you are still suggesting STR based rather than DEX based with Weapon Finesse. Is that for the STR bonus to damage?

Thx again. It is all coming together slowly like a light bulb on a dimmer switch. (And someone keeps turning the switch up, then down, then up....)



Strength Based ranger TWF is a bit more efficient in the DPS arena. Ram's Might is Primarily a Damage Augmentation but it does give an extr a +2 Str so it also helps with the +to hit. Honestly at the higher levels the -4 to hit won't matter too much but anything that makes it matter less is always welcome. Wit hcrazy things like Rage Pots Madstone Rage and Bloodrage etc Strength can get to much higher levels than dex can meaning you can get a much higher to hit with Strength than you can with Dex. Now the sacrifice to this is a slightly lower AC and Reflex save. However the Saves are mitigated by the Cha bonus to AC and the ranger and monk levels. As for the AC well you have Dex (which can and probably will still break 20 maybe mid 20s) and Wisdom (also breaking the 20 mark and maybe the mid 20s) over that you have +2 from Tempest and all the other things that make for a nice AC (except armor and shields)

Str based TWF is probably some of the best consistant DPS in the game

The only negative here is that you can't get a Rogue of FIghter Haste Boost which are disgustingly uber if really looked at

Aesop

edit: PS oh and you can use non light weapons if you'd like ... though I'm not sure if any monk weapons are not light (qstaff is weird so I'm not sure there how it will work)